[WikiEN-l] - category clutter on biographical articles

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[WikiEN-l] - category clutter on biographical articles

White Cat
There are lots of useless categories out there. Peoples disabilities, sexual
orientation, their religion, as well as other trivial information is being
used to categorize. We have a lot of underpopulated and useless categories
out there

I think a spring cleanup is necessary (though we do not need to wait till
spring).
   - Cool Cat
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Re: [WikiEN-l] - category clutter on biographical articles

Guy Chapman aka JzG
On Thu, 8 Feb 2007 20:39:09 +0200, "Cool Cat"
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>There are lots of useless categories out there. Peoples disabilities, sexual
>orientation, their religion, as well as other trivial information is being
>used to categorize. We have a lot of underpopulated and useless categories
>out there

I quite agree.  Pride is a fine thing, but I remain unconvinced that
many people want a navigational aid to all the notable people who are
or might have been gay / Jewish / Methylated Wesletarian / whatever;
much more likely that they will go along thinking "I am gay / Jewish /
Methylated Wesletarian / whatever, show me that lots of famous people
were as well, to validate that".  I'm also convinced that a lot of
this categorisation is used to pursue an agenda.

Guy (JzG)
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:JzG


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Re: [WikiEN-l] - category clutter on biographical articles

White Cat
If someone is really gay or is suspected of being gay...
If someone is a Christian...
If someone is a Methylated Wesletarian... (whatever that is ^_^' )

All that can be mentioned in the relevant article...

        - Cool Cat

On 2/8/07, Guy Chapman aka JzG <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On Thu, 8 Feb 2007 20:39:09 +0200, "Cool Cat"
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> >There are lots of useless categories out there. Peoples disabilities,
> sexual
> >orientation, their religion, as well as other trivial information is
> being
> >used to categorize. We have a lot of underpopulated and useless
> categories
> >out there
>
> I quite agree.  Pride is a fine thing, but I remain unconvinced that
> many people want a navigational aid to all the notable people who are
> or might have been gay / Jewish / Methylated Wesletarian / whatever;
> much more likely that they will go along thinking "I am gay / Jewish /
> Methylated Wesletarian / whatever, show me that lots of famous people
> were as well, to validate that".  I'm also convinced that a lot of
> this categorisation is used to pursue an agenda.
>
> Guy (JzG)
> --
> http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:JzG
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
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Re: [WikiEN-l] - category clutter on biographical articles

Guy Chapman aka JzG
On Thu, 8 Feb 2007 21:09:37 +0200, "Cool Cat"
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>If someone is really gay or is suspected of being gay...
>If someone is a Christian...
>If someone is a Methylated Wesletarian... (whatever that is ^_^' )
>All that can be mentioned in the relevant article...

Yup.  And it's not necessary to have 123,748 cats for every possible
variation thereof.

Oh: Methylated Wesletarian - my dad made that up to describe a rather
unsuccessful Origami model of a church :o)

Guy (JzG)
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:JzG


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Re: [WikiEN-l] - category clutter on biographical articles

White Cat
So do you have a suggestion to tackle/quick attack the problem? CfD is a
slow and inefficient procedure to get rid of nonsense. Too many
panic/contradictory "Keep" votes just pile up in almost an instant.

   - Cool Cat

On 2/8/07, Guy Chapman aka JzG <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On Thu, 8 Feb 2007 21:09:37 +0200, "Cool Cat"
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> >If someone is really gay or is suspected of being gay...
> >If someone is a Christian...
> >If someone is a Methylated Wesletarian... (whatever that is ^_^' )
> >All that can be mentioned in the relevant article...
>
> Yup.  And it's not necessary to have 123,748 cats for every possible
> variation thereof.
>
> Oh: Methylated Wesletarian - my dad made that up to describe a rather
> unsuccessful Origami model of a church :o)
>
> Guy (JzG)
> --
> http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:JzG
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
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Re: [WikiEN-l] - category clutter on biographical articles

Guy Chapman aka JzG
On Thu, 8 Feb 2007 21:16:49 +0200, "Cool Cat"
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>So do you have a suggestion to tackle/quick attack the problem? CfD is a
>slow and inefficient procedure to get rid of nonsense. Too many
>panic/contradictory "Keep" votes just pile up in almost an instant.

No way forward other than to gain consensus.  Without a solid body of
the community behind the change you will be accused of robbing people
of their Jewish / black / gay / unicyclist identity.  Quite how
removing a cat from a Wikipedia article robs someone of their identity
I don't know, but that is what is asserted.  First stop the Village
Pump, I guess.

Guy (JzG)
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:JzG


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Re: [WikiEN-l] - category clutter on biographical articles

White Cat
Can you initiate a discussion? People will accuse me random garbage if I do
everything. :)

   - Cool Cat

On 2/8/07, Guy Chapman aka JzG <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On Thu, 8 Feb 2007 21:16:49 +0200, "Cool Cat"
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> >So do you have a suggestion to tackle/quick attack the problem? CfD is a
> >slow and inefficient procedure to get rid of nonsense. Too many
> >panic/contradictory "Keep" votes just pile up in almost an instant.
>
> No way forward other than to gain consensus.  Without a solid body of
> the community behind the change you will be accused of robbing people
> of their Jewish / black / gay / unicyclist identity.  Quite how
> removing a cat from a Wikipedia article robs someone of their identity
> I don't know, but that is what is asserted.  First stop the Village
> Pump, I guess.
>
> Guy (JzG)
> --
> http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:JzG
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
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Re: [WikiEN-l] - category clutter on biographical articles

Ray Saintonge
In reply to this post by Guy Chapman aka JzG
Guy Chapman aka JzG wrote:

>On Thu, 8 Feb 2007 21:16:49 +0200, "Cool Cat" wrote:
>  
>
>>So do you have a suggestion to tackle/quick attack the problem? CfD is a
>>slow and inefficient procedure to get rid of nonsense. Too many
>>panic/contradictory "Keep" votes just pile up in almost an instant.
>>    
>>
>No way forward other than to gain consensus.  Without a solid body of
>the community behind the change you will be accused of robbing people
>of their Jewish / black / gay / unicyclist identity.  Quite how
>removing a cat from a Wikipedia article robs someone of their identity
>I don't know, but that is what is asserted.  First stop the Village
>Pump, I guess.
>
While it's easy to agree that there are a lot of useless and lame
categories, it's also the case that campaigns to purge these categories
do more to create friction than to solve problems.  With patience those
with an identity crisis will eventually go away at which time the
pointless categories can be removed without much fuss.

BTW, Methylated Wesletarian (who are dead) need to be distinguished from
Ethylated Wesletarians, who are merely drunk.  This must be divided into
two categories. :-)

Ec


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Re: [WikiEN-l] - category clutter on biographical articles

Steve Bennett-8
In reply to this post by Guy Chapman aka JzG
On 2/9/07, Guy Chapman aka JzG <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I quite agree.  Pride is a fine thing, but I remain unconvinced that
> many people want a navigational aid to all the notable people who are
> or might have been gay / Jewish / Methylated Wesletarian / whatever;
> much more likely that they will go along thinking "I am gay / Jewish /
> Methylated Wesletarian / whatever, show me that lots of famous people

Obviously they're not useful as navigational aids. They're intended as
*tags*. But since MediaWiki doesn't do tags, categories are the best
we have. I would suggest keeping them on until we have a better
solution - whether useful for navigating or not.

Steve

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Re: [WikiEN-l] - category clutter on biographical articles

Bryan Derksen
In reply to this post by White Cat
Cool Cat wrote:
> So do you have a suggestion to tackle/quick attack the problem? CfD is a
> slow and inefficient procedure to get rid of nonsense. Too many
> panic/contradictory "Keep" votes just pile up in almost an instant.

How do you distinguish the "panic/contradictory" keeps from the
"reasoned/consistent" keeps?

If you really think a category should go, take the time to write a full
argument for it and don't worry so much if the CfD ends up going the
other way. There was once a category on Wikipedia that I felt was
deserving of deletion and I spent a lot of effort banging my head
against a wall on CfD trying to convince some "keep" voters of my
correctness, without success. But ultimately a year or so later, after
everyone had wandered off to other things, someone else came along and
CfDed it again and the category quietly passed away. If a category is
truly deserving of deletion then eventually it's going to happen. We're
not on a deadline.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] - category clutter on biographical articles

White Cat
True, but waiting makes things worse. Similar categories are morphed because
the category exists. In that sense we do have a deadline.

Maybe a "Wikiproject Categorization" would be a better solution... Any
opinions? Does such a wikiproject exist?

   - Cool Cat

On 2/9/07, Bryan Derksen <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Cool Cat wrote:
> > So do you have a suggestion to tackle/quick attack the problem? CfD is a
> > slow and inefficient procedure to get rid of nonsense. Too many
> > panic/contradictory "Keep" votes just pile up in almost an instant.
>
> How do you distinguish the "panic/contradictory" keeps from the
> "reasoned/consistent" keeps?
>
> If you really think a category should go, take the time to write a full
> argument for it and don't worry so much if the CfD ends up going the
> other way. There was once a category on Wikipedia that I felt was
> deserving of deletion and I spent a lot of effort banging my head
> against a wall on CfD trying to convince some "keep" voters of my
> correctness, without success. But ultimately a year or so later, after
> everyone had wandered off to other things, someone else came along and
> CfDed it again and the category quietly passed away. If a category is
> truly deserving of deletion then eventually it's going to happen. We're
> not on a deadline.
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
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Re: [WikiEN-l] - category clutter on biographical articles

stevertigo-2
In reply to this post by Ray Saintonge
On 2/8/07, Ray Saintonge <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> While it's easy to agree that there are a lot of useless and lame
> categories, it's also the case that campaigns to purge these categories
> do more to create friction than to solve problems.  With patience those
> with an identity crisis will eventually go away at which time the
> pointless categories can be removed without much fuss.
>
> BTW, Methylated Wesletarian (who are dead) need to be distinguished from
> Ethylated Wesletarians, who are merely drunk.  This must be divided into
> two categories. :-)


That's being unnecessarily categoristic - youre chauvinistic categorism is
no doubt
motivated by a nefarious desire to destroy the fragile compact that holds
the various
tangential and differentiated branches of the Methylated Wesletarian
community together
under a single monicker.

-SV , (human)
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Re: [WikiEN-l] - category clutter on biographical articles

White Cat
Based on this discussion I wrote an Essay, feel free to comment/expand

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Do_not_write_articles_using_categories

  -Cool Cat

On 2/9/07, stvrtg <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 2/8/07, Ray Saintonge <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >
> > While it's easy to agree that there are a lot of useless and lame
> > categories, it's also the case that campaigns to purge these categories
> > do more to create friction than to solve problems.  With patience those
> > with an identity crisis will eventually go away at which time the
> > pointless categories can be removed without much fuss.
> >
> > BTW, Methylated Wesletarian (who are dead) need to be distinguished from
> > Ethylated Wesletarians, who are merely drunk.  This must be divided into
> > two categories. :-)
>
>
> That's being unnecessarily categoristic - youre chauvinistic categorism is
> no doubt
> motivated by a nefarious desire to destroy the fragile compact that holds
> the various
> tangential and differentiated branches of the Methylated Wesletarian
> community together
> under a single monicker.
>
> -SV , (human)
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
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> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
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Re: - category clutter on biographical articles

Ray Saintonge
Cool Cat wrote:

>Based on this discussion I wrote an Essay, feel free to comment/expand
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Do_not_write_articles_using_categories
>
>  
>
The general principle of avoiding excessive categories is sound.  The
art is in getting cleaning up the excesses without upsetting a lot of
people, and causing a lot of flame wars.  Patience can be your friend.

Ec


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Re: - category clutter on biographical articles

geni
On 2/11/07, Ray Saintonge <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Cool Cat wrote:
>
> >Based on this discussion I wrote an Essay, feel free to comment/expand
> >
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Do_not_write_articles_using_categories
> >
> >
> >
> The general principle of avoiding excessive categories is sound.  The
> art is in getting cleaning up the excesses without upsetting a lot of
> people, and causing a lot of flame wars.  Patience can be your friend.
>
> Ec

But what is excessive? Since you have very little idea exactly what
groupings people will be looking for I would tend to  argue that it is
worth risking a little over categorisation.


--
geni

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Re: - category clutter on biographical articles

White Cat
Geni people can make good use of search tools. Categories should be used to
group people who significantly relate to each other such as by
nationality/occupation and not trivial material like hobbies/likes/dislikes.


The problem is we do not have a 'little' overcategorization but instead we
have a lot. CfD process is overwhelmed with the constant mass cfds.

We do not get a lot of excess stub templates/categories. One is not allowed
to create a stub template w/o a discussion in principle. Same principle
should be applied to categories. If something doesn't ever get acceptance,
fewer people would be upset.

Perhaps a wikiproject regulating categories might not be a bad idea.

   - Cool Cat

On 2/11/07, geni <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 2/11/07, Ray Saintonge <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Cool Cat wrote:
> >
> > >Based on this discussion I wrote an Essay, feel free to comment/expand
> > >
> > >
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Do_not_write_articles_using_categories
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > The general principle of avoiding excessive categories is sound.  The
> > art is in getting cleaning up the excesses without upsetting a lot of
> > people, and causing a lot of flame wars.  Patience can be your friend.
> >
> > Ec
>
> But what is excessive? Since you have very little idea exactly what
> groupings people will be looking for I would tend to  argue that it is
> worth risking a little over categorisation.
>
>
> --
> geni
>
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Re: - category clutter on biographical articles

Marc Riddell
on 2/12/07 6:19 AM, Cool Cat at [hidden email] wrote:

> Perhaps a wikiproject regulating categories might not be a bad idea.

Sounds like a great idea. I'd be one of the first in line to sign on.

Marc Riddell


--
If you're restricted to what is - you are cut off from - - what could be.


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Re: - category clutter on biographical articles

geni
On 2/12/07, Marc Riddell <[hidden email]> wrote:
> on 2/12/07 6:19 AM, Cool Cat at [hidden email] wrote:
>
> > Perhaps a wikiproject regulating categories might not be a bad idea.
>
> Sounds like a great idea. I'd be one of the first in line to sign on.
>
> Marc Riddell
>

When trying to sort out our images and their copyright status I would
rather not have to submit every category I find myself needed to a
bunch of self appointed busy bodies who are unlikely to know much more
about copyright than the average wikipedian.

The stubs wikiproject works because the vast majority of people who
are interested in new stubs and stub sorting are part of the project.
That would not be the case with a categories wikiproject.


--
geni

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Re: - category clutter on biographical articles

Rich Holton
geni wrote:

> On 2/12/07, Marc Riddell <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> on 2/12/07 6:19 AM, Cool Cat at [hidden email] wrote:
>>
>>> Perhaps a wikiproject regulating categories might not be a bad idea.
>> Sounds like a great idea. I'd be one of the first in line to sign on.
>>
>> Marc Riddell
>>
>
> When trying to sort out our images and their copyright status I would
> rather not have to submit every category I find myself needed to a
> bunch of self appointed busy bodies who are unlikely to know much more
> about copyright than the average wikipedian.
>
> The stubs wikiproject works because the vast majority of people who
> are interested in new stubs and stub sorting are part of the project.
> That would not be the case with a categories wikiproject.
>
>

Do you know, Geni, that sometimes you project a fairly abrasive attitude?

-Rich

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Re: - category clutter on biographical articles

White Cat
In reply to this post by geni
You know... The actual problem does not involve administrative categories at
all. Obviously those would be an exception. Stub wikiproject would take care
of stub categories as well. Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy after all.

I believe stub wikiproject is a great success and not a bunch of busy
bodies. If a similar categorization wikiproject started off, end results
would be only positive. The scope of the wikiproject should only include
non-administrative categories intended for items on the article namespace.
Geni how does that sound?

      - Cool Cat

On 2/12/07, geni <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 2/12/07, Marc Riddell <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > on 2/12/07 6:19 AM, Cool Cat at [hidden email] wrote:
> >
> > > Perhaps a wikiproject regulating categories might not be a bad idea.
> >
> > Sounds like a great idea. I'd be one of the first in line to sign on.
> >
> > Marc Riddell
> >
>
> When trying to sort out our images and their copyright status I would
> rather not have to submit every category I find myself needed to a
> bunch of self appointed busy bodies who are unlikely to know much more
> about copyright than the average wikipedian.
>
> The stubs wikiproject works because the vast majority of people who
> are interested in new stubs and stub sorting are part of the project.
> That would not be the case with a categories wikiproject.
>
>
> --
> geni
>
> _______________________________________________
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