Wikimania 2013 videos

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Wikimania 2013 videos

Deryck Chan
Good evening Wikimaniacs!

We now have a distributed effort by multiple volunteers in Hong Kong to upload all the video footage from Wikimania 2013 onto YouTube. If you gave a presentation or workshop at Wikimania (and haven't requested that we don't video you), keep an eye on WMHK's YouTube channel:
http://www.youtube.com/user/WikimediaHK

The plan is that all videos will be available by the end of February.

We'd be grateful if you can watch your video and see if there are any defects, because we can't watch every second of the uploaded videos to check them!

Deryck


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Re: Wikimania 2013 videos

quiddity-2
On 14-01-18 08:59 AM, Deryck Chan wrote:

> Good evening Wikimaniacs!
>
> We now have a distributed effort by multiple volunteers in Hong Kong to
> upload all the video footage from Wikimania 2013 onto YouTube. If you
> gave a presentation or workshop at Wikimania (and haven't requested that
> we don't video you), keep an eye on WMHK's YouTube channel:
> http://www.youtube.com/user/WikimediaHK
>
> The plan is that all videos will be available by the end of February.
>
> We'd be grateful if you can watch your video and see if there are any
> defects, because we can't watch every second of the uploaded videos to
> check them!
>
> Deryck


It's wonderful to be able to watch these. Much much thanks for
continuing the efforts to get them online. (Both in general, and the
links in the specific submission pages themselves:
https://wikimania2013.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:RecentChanges )

Quiddity.


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Re: Wikimania 2013 videos

Andrew Lih-2
In reply to this post by Deryck Chan
Any plans to upload them to Commons or Internet Archive, or is this something we can get volunteers to help with?

The only reason is that in general, downloading and keeping videos from YouTube violates their terms of service. Even if they are CC licensed.

Thanks.
-Andrew


-Andrew Lih
Associate professor of journalism, American University
Email: [hidden email]
WEB: http://www.andrewlih.com
BOOK: The Wikipedia Revolution: http://www.wikipediarevolution.com
PROJECT: Wiki Makes Video http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Wiki_Makes_Video


On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 11:59 AM, Deryck Chan <[hidden email]> wrote:
Good evening Wikimaniacs!

We now have a distributed effort by multiple volunteers in Hong Kong to upload all the video footage from Wikimania 2013 onto YouTube. If you gave a presentation or workshop at Wikimania (and haven't requested that we don't video you), keep an eye on WMHK's YouTube channel:
http://www.youtube.com/user/WikimediaHK

The plan is that all videos will be available by the end of February.

We'd be grateful if you can watch your video and see if there are any defects, because we can't watch every second of the uploaded videos to check them!

Deryck


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Re: Wikimania 2013 videos

Federico Leva (Nemo)
In reply to this post by Deryck Chan
Deryck Chan, 18/01/2014 17:59:
> We now have a distributed effort by multiple volunteers in Hong Kong to
> upload all the video footage from Wikimania 2013 onto YouTube.

Thanks for coordinating and to all the volunteers involved, an amusing
effort! I saw that you used the YouTube video editor and there are
videos in HD too (1280x720px): Hong Kong beats Washington, arriving
first despite a slower start. ;-) Please add your learnings to the
Wikimania Handbook.
I noticed two things:
* WebM format is available at varying qualities, I suppose they're still
being derived but I'm not sure.
* Some videos/rooms have very poor audio, but it may be my hardware
fault too. Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciaK855R66g

Nemo

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Re: Wikimania 2013 videos

Deryck Chan
In reply to this post by Andrew Lih-2

No. We figured that uploading to YouTube is the only way we can get all the videos out before Wikimania 2014.

(Longer, more technical answer follows)
We performed a series of pilot tests in December and early January and found two main technical problems with uploading the videos from Hong Kong to Commons.

The first one is bandwidth. We have about 1TB of video footage. Because Hong Kong is on the opposite side of the planet from the WMF datacenters, we can only eke out an average speed of 50kB/s even on a "fast" connection in Hong Kong. At that rate it'll take 250 computer-days (plus extra time cost due to errors etc) of non-stop uploading to get it done. We don't have that many dedicated volunteers who are willing to donate that much machine time. In contrast, we can get an average speed of 500kB/s uploading to YouTube because they have a local node in Hong Kong. Enoch Tam (aka. "ET", many of you will remember him for all the errands he ran at Wikimania) and myself are donating all our machine idle time to the task, so we're confident it'll be done in less than a month.

The second challenge is rendering. YouTube isn't just a video CDN; it is a combined rendering and distribution service. The footage we got from SocRec is in unedited 2-4GB chunks of M2T and MTS files, which Commons cannot handle. Uploading to Commons would require the use of rendering software (and a lot of computing) to convert and edit them to OGV. This requires a further amount of volunteer dedication, video-editing software, and computing power which we don't have. The strategy at the moment is that we upload the raw footage to YouTube, then edit them into sessions using YouTube's browser video editor.

To see the details and progress of what we're doing, see https://wikimania2013.wikimedia.org/wiki/Video_upload .

We did contemplate, at one point about two weeks ago, that we shouldn't even attempt to upload the videos from Hong Kong, and just mail the 2TB external HDD with the raw footage to WMF or WMUK. Now that Andrew pointed out that downloading and keeping a copy of YouTube videos violates their TOS regardless of licence, I guess we could've just given up back then. I guess the best course of action now is that we continue uploading and editing the videos on YouTube. If someone at WMF or WMUK is willing to render and edit the videos again from scratch, we'll send them the HDD after we're done here.

Deryck


On 20 Jan 2014 23:19, "Andrew Lih" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Any plans to upload them to Commons or Internet Archive, or is this something we can get volunteers to help with?

The only reason is that in general, downloading and keeping videos from YouTube violates their terms of service. Even if they are CC licensed.

Thanks.
-Andrew


-Andrew Lih
Associate professor of journalism, American University
Email: [hidden email]
WEB: http://www.andrewlih.com
BOOK: The Wikipedia Revolution: http://www.wikipediarevolution.com
PROJECT: Wiki Makes Video http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Wiki_Makes_Video


On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 11:59 AM, Deryck Chan <[hidden email]> wrote:
Good evening Wikimaniacs!

We now have a distributed effort by multiple volunteers in Hong Kong to upload all the video footage from Wikimania 2013 onto YouTube. If you gave a presentation or workshop at Wikimania (and haven't requested that we don't video you), keep an eye on WMHK's YouTube channel:
http://www.youtube.com/user/WikimediaHK

The plan is that all videos will be available by the end of February.

We'd be grateful if you can watch your video and see if there are any defects, because we can't watch every second of the uploaded videos to check them!

Deryck


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Re: Wikimania 2013 videos

Deryck Chan
In reply to this post by Federico Leva (Nemo)
On 21 January 2014 04:35, Federico Leva (Nemo) <[hidden email]> wrote:
Deryck Chan, 18/01/2014 17:59:

We now have a distributed effort by multiple volunteers in Hong Kong to
upload all the video footage from Wikimania 2013 onto YouTube.

Thanks for coordinating and to all the volunteers involved, an amusing effort! I saw that you used the YouTube video editor and there are videos in HD too (1280x720px): Hong Kong beats Washington, arriving first despite a slower start. ;-) Please add your learnings to the Wikimania Handbook.
I noticed two things:
* WebM format is available at varying qualities, I suppose they're still being derived but I'm not sure.
 
See my other post to the thread.

* Some videos/rooms have very poor audio, but it may be my hardware fault too. Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciaK855R66g

Yea. Sadly we haven't got many wireless microphones at Wikimania 2013. There's not much we can do with audio quality when the speaker doesn't talk straight into the microphone. Most of us prefer to dance around the stage and entertain the live audience as our only priority.

Nemo


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Re: Wikimania 2013 videos

Andrew Lih-2
In reply to this post by Deryck Chan
Thanks for the extensive explanation, and as someone who's helped with Wikimania video in the past, I absolutely feel your pain and commend you for doing what you have so far.

Downloading from YouTube violates their TOS, though you'll notice people do it all the time. 

-Andrew


-Andrew Lih
Associate professor of journalism, American University
Email: [hidden email]
WEB: http://www.andrewlih.com
BOOK: The Wikipedia Revolution: http://www.wikipediarevolution.com
PROJECT: Wiki Makes Video http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Wiki_Makes_Video


On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 11:05 PM, Deryck Chan <[hidden email]> wrote:

No. We figured that uploading to YouTube is the only way we can get all the videos out before Wikimania 2014.

(Longer, more technical answer follows)
We performed a series of pilot tests in December and early January and found two main technical problems with uploading the videos from Hong Kong to Commons.

The first one is bandwidth. We have about 1TB of video footage. Because Hong Kong is on the opposite side of the planet from the WMF datacenters, we can only eke out an average speed of 50kB/s even on a "fast" connection in Hong Kong. At that rate it'll take 250 computer-days (plus extra time cost due to errors etc) of non-stop uploading to get it done. We don't have that many dedicated volunteers who are willing to donate that much machine time. In contrast, we can get an average speed of 500kB/s uploading to YouTube because they have a local node in Hong Kong. Enoch Tam (aka. "ET", many of you will remember him for all the errands he ran at Wikimania) and myself are donating all our machine idle time to the task, so we're confident it'll be done in less than a month.

The second challenge is rendering. YouTube isn't just a video CDN; it is a combined rendering and distribution service. The footage we got from SocRec is in unedited 2-4GB chunks of M2T and MTS files, which Commons cannot handle. Uploading to Commons would require the use of rendering software (and a lot of computing) to convert and edit them to OGV. This requires a further amount of volunteer dedication, video-editing software, and computing power which we don't have. The strategy at the moment is that we upload the raw footage to YouTube, then edit them into sessions using YouTube's browser video editor.

To see the details and progress of what we're doing, see https://wikimania2013.wikimedia.org/wiki/Video_upload .

We did contemplate, at one point about two weeks ago, that we shouldn't even attempt to upload the videos from Hong Kong, and just mail the 2TB external HDD with the raw footage to WMF or WMUK. Now that Andrew pointed out that downloading and keeping a copy of YouTube videos violates their TOS regardless of licence, I guess we could've just given up back then. I guess the best course of action now is that we continue uploading and editing the videos on YouTube. If someone at WMF or WMUK is willing to render and edit the videos again from scratch, we'll send them the HDD after we're done here.

Deryck


On 20 Jan 2014 23:19, "Andrew Lih" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Any plans to upload them to Commons or Internet Archive, or is this something we can get volunteers to help with?

The only reason is that in general, downloading and keeping videos from YouTube violates their terms of service. Even if they are CC licensed.

Thanks.
-Andrew


-Andrew Lih
Associate professor of journalism, American University
Email: [hidden email]
WEB: http://www.andrewlih.com
BOOK: The Wikipedia Revolution: http://www.wikipediarevolution.com
PROJECT: Wiki Makes Video http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Wiki_Makes_Video


On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 11:59 AM, Deryck Chan <[hidden email]> wrote:
Good evening Wikimaniacs!

We now have a distributed effort by multiple volunteers in Hong Kong to upload all the video footage from Wikimania 2013 onto YouTube. If you gave a presentation or workshop at Wikimania (and haven't requested that we don't video you), keep an eye on WMHK's YouTube channel:
http://www.youtube.com/user/WikimediaHK

The plan is that all videos will be available by the end of February.

We'd be grateful if you can watch your video and see if there are any defects, because we can't watch every second of the uploaded videos to check them!

Deryck


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Re: Wikimania 2013 videos

Katie Chan-2
In reply to this post by Deryck Chan
On 21/01/2014 04:05, Deryck Chan wrote:
We did contemplate, at one point about two weeks ago, that we shouldn't even attempt to upload the videos from Hong Kong, and just mail the 2TB external HDD with the raw footage to WMF or WMUK. Now that Andrew pointed out that downloading and keeping a copy of YouTube videos violates their TOS regardless of licence, I guess we could've just given up back then. I guess the best course of action now is that we continue uploading and editing the videos on YouTube. If someone at WMF or WMUK is willing to render and edit the videos again from scratch, we'll send them the HDD after we're done here.
What do you mean by edit? Are we just talking about combining the chunks and then rendering? If so, that's doable. The advantages of sending it to WMF however is that someone there have direct access to the server and can upload quicker / accept bigger file size.

Katie

--
Katie Chan
Volunteer Support Organiser
Wikimedia UK
+44 (0) 20 7065 0990
+44 (0) 7885 980 534

Wikimedia UK is a Charitable Company registered in England and Wales.
Registered Company No. 6741827. Registered Charity No.1144513.
Registered Office: 4th Floor, Development House, 56-64 Leonard Street, London EC2A 4LT. United Kingdom.
Wikimedia UK is the UK chapter of a global Wikimedia movement. The Wikimedia projects are run by the Wikimedia Foundation (who operate Wikipedia, amongst other projects).

Wikimedia UK is an independent non-profit charity with no legal control over Wikipedia nor responsibility for its contents.


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Re: Wikimania 2013 videos

Emmanuel Engelhart-5
Le 21/01/2014 14:15, Katie Chan a écrit :

> On 21/01/2014 04:05, Deryck Chan wrote:
>> We did contemplate, at one point about two weeks ago, that we
>> shouldn't even attempt to upload the videos from Hong Kong, and just
>> mail the 2TB external HDD with the raw footage to WMF or WMUK. Now
>> that Andrew pointed out that downloading and keeping a copy of YouTube
>> videos violates their TOS regardless of licence, I guess we could've
>> just given up back then. I guess the best course of action now is that
>> we continue uploading and editing the videos on YouTube. If someone at
>> WMF or WMUK is willing to render and edit the videos again from
>> scratch, we'll send them the HDD after we're done here.
> What do you mean by edit? Are we just talking about combining the chunks
> and then rendering? If so, that's doable. The advantages of sending it
> to WMF however is that someone there have direct access to the server
> and can upload quicker / accept bigger file size.

Yes.

BTW, I have created a bug report about this connectivity issue from
Hong-Kong:
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=60283

If other people of HK may confirm or give more information about the
problem, this would be the first step to fix it.

Regards
Emmanuel

--
Kiwix - Wikipedia Offline & more
* Web: http://www.kiwix.org
* Twitter: https://twitter.com/KiwixOffline
* more: http://www.kiwix.org/wiki/Communication

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Re: Wikimania 2013 videos

Federico Leva (Nemo)
In reply to this post by Andrew Lih-2
Andrew Lih, 21/01/2014 06:05:
> Thanks for the extensive explanation, and as someone who's helped with
> Wikimania video in the past, I absolutely feel your pain and commend you
> for doing what you have so far.
>
> Downloading from YouTube violates their TOS, though you'll notice people
> do it all the time.

I've uploaded thousands of YouTube videos to archive.org, I can do these
too with no problem.

Nemo

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Re: Wikimania 2013 videos

Andrew Lih-2
Oh I can do it, and I know how to do so technically. I'm just pointing out by the letter of YouTube's TOS it's not permitted. :)

-Andrew Lih
Associate professor of journalism, American University
Email: [hidden email]
WEB: http://www.andrewlih.com
BOOK: The Wikipedia Revolution: http://www.wikipediarevolution.com
PROJECT: Wiki Makes Video http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Wiki_Makes_Video


On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 9:33 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) <[hidden email]> wrote:
Andrew Lih, 21/01/2014 06:05:

Thanks for the extensive explanation, and as someone who's helped with
Wikimania video in the past, I absolutely feel your pain and commend you
for doing what you have so far.

Downloading from YouTube violates their TOS, though you'll notice people
do it all the time.

I've uploaded thousands of YouTube videos to archive.org, I can do these too with no problem.

Nemo


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Re: Wikimania 2013 videos

Jan Ainali
I already started uploading around 15 of them, not reading the ToS beforehand. :/

I used the script youtube2mediawiki.py so I am not sure I technically have 'downloaded' the files, at least they have never been on my computer.

/Jan

21 januari 2014, Andrew Lih <[hidden email]> skrev:

Oh I can do it, and I know how to do so technically. I'm just pointing out by the letter of YouTube's TOS it's not permitted. :)

-Andrew Lih
Associate professor of journalism, American University
Email: [hidden email]
WEB: http://www.andrewlih.com
BOOK: The Wikipedia Revolution: http://www.wikipediarevolution.com
PROJECT: Wiki Makes Video http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Wiki_Makes_Video


On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 9:33 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) <[hidden email]> wrote:
Andrew Lih, 21/01/2014 06:05:

Thanks for the extensive explanation, and as someone who's helped with
Wikimania video in the past, I absolutely feel your pain and commend you
for doing what you have so far.

Downloading from YouTube violates their TOS, though you'll notice people
do it all the time.

I've uploaded thousands of YouTube videos to archive.org, I can do these too with no problem.

Nemo


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Re: Wikimania 2013 videos

Deryck Chan
I've just scrutinised the YouTube TOS in detail for the first time. The clause which says you can't download videos is in 5(B): (my emphasis)

You may access Content for your information and personal use solely as intended through the provided functionality of the Service and as permitted under these Terms of Service. You shall not download any Content unless you see a “download” or similar link displayed by YouTube on the Service for that Content. You shall not copy, reproduce, make available online or electronically transmit, publish, adapt, distribute, transmit, broadcast, display, sell, license, or otherwise exploit any Content for any other purposes without the prior written consent of YouTube or the respective licensors of the Content. YouTube and its licensors reserve all rights not expressly granted in and to the Service and the Content.

We obviously have the prior written consent to reproduce the videos to Commons. From my reading of the TOS, copying the videos to Commons shouldn't violate the TOS (in part because it wasn't "downloaded" - though "download" wasn't explicitly defined in the TOS).

IANAL.
 


On 21 January 2014 23:50, Jan Ainali <[hidden email]> wrote:
I already started uploading around 15 of them, not reading the ToS beforehand. :/

I used the script youtube2mediawiki.py so I am not sure I technically have 'downloaded' the files, at least they have never been on my computer.

/Jan

21 januari 2014, Andrew Lih <[hidden email]> skrev:

Oh I can do it, and I know how to do so technically. I'm just pointing out by the letter of YouTube's TOS it's not permitted. :)

-Andrew Lih
Associate professor of journalism, American University
Email: [hidden email]
WEB: http://www.andrewlih.com
BOOK: The Wikipedia Revolution: http://www.wikipediarevolution.com
PROJECT: Wiki Makes Video http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Wiki_Makes_Video


On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 9:33 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) <[hidden email]> wrote:
Andrew Lih, 21/01/2014 06:05:

Thanks for the extensive explanation, and as someone who's helped with
Wikimania video in the past, I absolutely feel your pain and commend you
for doing what you have so far.

Downloading from YouTube violates their TOS, though you'll notice people
do it all the time.

I've uploaded thousands of YouTube videos to archive.org, I can do these too with no problem.

Nemo


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Re: Wikimania 2013 videos

Asaf Bartov-2
I agree.  Not only are "we"[1] the owners of the copyright, we are explicitly releasing it under a CC-by-sa license, which _does_ constitute "prior written consent of [...] the respective licensors of the Content". 

Kudos to Deryck and Enoch for tackling this bummer of a task for all of us.  It's worthwhile labor, and will serve us for years[2].

Cheers,

    Asaf

[1] for some definition of "we"
[2] I have had occasion to watch a WM2012 session just last week.


On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 8:33 AM, Deryck Chan <[hidden email]> wrote:
I've just scrutinised the YouTube TOS in detail for the first time. The clause which says you can't download videos is in 5(B): (my emphasis)

You may access Content for your information and personal use solely as intended through the provided functionality of the Service and as permitted under these Terms of Service. You shall not download any Content unless you see a “download” or similar link displayed by YouTube on the Service for that Content. You shall not copy, reproduce, make available online or electronically transmit, publish, adapt, distribute, transmit, broadcast, display, sell, license, or otherwise exploit any Content for any other purposes without the prior written consent of YouTube or the respective licensors of the Content. YouTube and its licensors reserve all rights not expressly granted in and to the Service and the Content.

We obviously have the prior written consent to reproduce the videos to Commons. From my reading of the TOS, copying the videos to Commons shouldn't violate the TOS (in part because it wasn't "downloaded" - though "download" wasn't explicitly defined in the TOS).

IANAL.
 


On 21 January 2014 23:50, Jan Ainali <[hidden email]> wrote:
I already started uploading around 15 of them, not reading the ToS beforehand. :/

I used the script youtube2mediawiki.py so I am not sure I technically have 'downloaded' the files, at least they have never been on my computer.

/Jan

21 januari 2014, Andrew Lih <[hidden email]> skrev:

Oh I can do it, and I know how to do so technically. I'm just pointing out by the letter of YouTube's TOS it's not permitted. :)

-Andrew Lih
Associate professor of journalism, American University
Email: [hidden email]
WEB: http://www.andrewlih.com
BOOK: The Wikipedia Revolution: http://www.wikipediarevolution.com
PROJECT: Wiki Makes Video http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Wiki_Makes_Video


On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 9:33 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) <[hidden email]> wrote:
Andrew Lih, 21/01/2014 06:05:

Thanks for the extensive explanation, and as someone who's helped with
Wikimania video in the past, I absolutely feel your pain and commend you
for doing what you have so far.

Downloading from YouTube violates their TOS, though you'll notice people
do it all the time.

I've uploaded thousands of YouTube videos to archive.org, I can do these too with no problem.

Nemo


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Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality!

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Re: Wikimania 2013 videos

Andrew Lih-2
In reply to this post by Deryck Chan
Yes, that's related to copyright and permissions of the material, but what about that first sentence:

You shall not download any Content unless you see a “download” or similar link displayed by YouTube on the Service for that Content



-Andrew Lih
Associate professor of journalism, American University
Email: [hidden email]
WEB: http://www.andrewlih.com
BOOK: The Wikipedia Revolution: http://www.wikipediarevolution.com
PROJECT: Wiki Makes Video http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Wiki_Makes_Video


On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 11:33 AM, Deryck Chan <[hidden email]> wrote:
I've just scrutinised the YouTube TOS in detail for the first time. The clause which says you can't download videos is in 5(B): (my emphasis)

You may access Content for your information and personal use solely as intended through the provided functionality of the Service and as permitted under these Terms of Service. You shall not download any Content unless you see a “download” or similar link displayed by YouTube on the Service for that Content. You shall not copy, reproduce, make available online or electronically transmit, publish, adapt, distribute, transmit, broadcast, display, sell, license, or otherwise exploit any Content for any other purposes without the prior written consent of YouTube or the respective licensors of the Content. YouTube and its licensors reserve all rights not expressly granted in and to the Service and the Content.

We obviously have the prior written consent to reproduce the videos to Commons. From my reading of the TOS, copying the videos to Commons shouldn't violate the TOS (in part because it wasn't "downloaded" - though "download" wasn't explicitly defined in the TOS).

IANAL.
 


On 21 January 2014 23:50, Jan Ainali <[hidden email]> wrote:
I already started uploading around 15 of them, not reading the ToS beforehand. :/

I used the script youtube2mediawiki.py so I am not sure I technically have 'downloaded' the files, at least they have never been on my computer.

/Jan

21 januari 2014, Andrew Lih <[hidden email]> skrev:

Oh I can do it, and I know how to do so technically. I'm just pointing out by the letter of YouTube's TOS it's not permitted. :)

-Andrew Lih
Associate professor of journalism, American University
Email: [hidden email]
WEB: http://www.andrewlih.com
BOOK: The Wikipedia Revolution: http://www.wikipediarevolution.com
PROJECT: Wiki Makes Video http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Wiki_Makes_Video


On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 9:33 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) <[hidden email]> wrote:
Andrew Lih, 21/01/2014 06:05:

Thanks for the extensive explanation, and as someone who's helped with
Wikimania video in the past, I absolutely feel your pain and commend you
for doing what you have so far.

Downloading from YouTube violates their TOS, though you'll notice people
do it all the time.

I've uploaded thousands of YouTube videos to archive.org, I can do these too with no problem.

Nemo


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Re: Wikimania 2013 videos

Mark A. Hershberger-2
In reply to this post by Deryck Chan
If I install the appropriate Firefox plugin, I see a "download" link.  Does the TOS say that isn't a valid download link?

IANAL, but I suppose they could say that wasn't "displayed by YouTube" and then we get into the semantics and details of how a link is displayed and -- especially if you are a naive user using someone else's computer with the plugin installed -- how you can tell if the link you see is "displayed by YouTube."

Oh, but wait.  I think this rabbit hole is already too deep.  I'll stop digging.

----- Original Message -----

> Yes, that's related to copyright and permissions of the material, but what
> about that first sentence:
>
> You shall not download any Content unless you see a “download” or similar
> link displayed by YouTube on the Service for that Content
>
>
>
> -Andrew Lih
> Associate professor of journalism, American University
> Email: [hidden email]
> WEB: http://www.andrewlih.com
> BOOK: The Wikipedia Revolution: http:// www.wikipediarevolution.com
> PROJECT: Wiki Makes Video
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Wiki_Makes_Video

--
http://hexmode.com/

Nowhere in the castle of science is there a final exit to absolute
    truth. -- Memories of Kurt Godel, http://hexm.de/25m8

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Re: Wikimania 2013 videos

Nkansah Rexford

Will it be a good idea if the wmf or Wikimania writes to YouTube to asked of much details or rights for that?

If the tos is in certain areas ambiguous, I think one can take advantage of that. There are many sites I've noticed that allows one to input YouTube link and it'll allow to download. YouTube hasn't arrested such ones?

Even critically saying, viewing a YouTube video, I'm downloading, because it grabs files from the server, sends it in chunks, "is downloaded" onto my PC, and I watch, just that its streaming without saving permanently to the harddrive.

Rexford | Africa Center | wikiafrica.net | sent from Tab

On Jan 21, 2014 8:12 PM, "Mark A. Hershberger" <[hidden email]> wrote:
If I install the appropriate Firefox plugin, I see a "download" link.  Does the TOS say that isn't a valid download link?

IANAL, but I suppose they could say that wasn't "displayed by YouTube" and then we get into the semantics and details of how a link is displayed and -- especially if you are a naive user using someone else's computer with the plugin installed -- how you can tell if the link you see is "displayed by YouTube."

Oh, but wait.  I think this rabbit hole is already too deep.  I'll stop digging.

----- Original Message -----
> Yes, that's related to copyright and permissions of the material, but what
> about that first sentence:
>
> You shall not download any Content unless you see a “download” or similar
> link displayed by YouTube on the Service for that Content
>
>
>
> -Andrew Lih
> Associate professor of journalism, American University
> Email: [hidden email]
> WEB: http://www.andrewlih.com
> BOOK: The Wikipedia Revolution: http:// www.wikipediarevolution.com
> PROJECT: Wiki Makes Video
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Wiki_Makes_Video

--
http://hexmode.com/

Nowhere in the castle of science is there a final exit to absolute
    truth. -- Memories of Kurt Godel, http://hexm.de/25m8

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Re: Wikimania 2013 videos

Jan Ainali

On January 21, 2014, Nkansah Rexford <[hidden email]> wrote:

Will it be a good idea if the wmf or Wikimania writes to YouTube to asked of much details or rights for that?

If the tos is in certain areas ambiguous, I think one can take advantage of that. There are many sites I've noticed that allows one to input YouTube link and it'll allow to download. YouTube hasn't arrested such ones?


As far as I know, Youtube does not have the authority to arrest anyone anywhere, so having that as a metric on whether it is allowed is probably useless.

/Jan
 

Even critically saying, viewing a YouTube video, I'm downloading, because it grabs files from the server, sends it in chunks, "is downloaded" onto my PC, and I watch, just that its streaming without saving permanently to the harddrive.

Rexford | Africa Center | wikiafrica.net | sent from Tab

On Jan 21, 2014 8:12 PM, "Mark A. Hershberger" <[hidden email]> wrote:
If I install the appropriate Firefox plugin, I see a "download" link.  Does the TOS say that isn't a valid download link?

IANAL, but I suppose they could say that wasn't "displayed by YouTube" and then we get into the semantics and details of how a link is displayed and -- especially if you are a naive user using someone else's computer with the plugin installed -- how you can tell if the link you see is "displayed by YouTube."

Oh, but wait.  I think this rabbit hole is already too deep.  I'll stop digging.

----- Original Message -----
> Yes, that's related to copyright and permissions of the material, but what
> about that first sentence:
>
> You shall not download any Content unless you see a “download” or similar
> link displayed by YouTube on the Service for that Content
>
>
>
> -Andrew Lih
> Associate professor of journalism, American University
> Email: [hidden email]
> WEB: http://www.andrewlih.com
> BOOK: The Wikipedia Revolution: http:// www.wikipediarevolution.com
> PROJECT: Wiki Makes Video
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Wiki_Makes_Video

--
http://hexmode.com/

Nowhere in the castle of science is there a final exit to absolute
    truth. -- Memories of Kurt Godel, http://hexm.de/25m8

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Re: Wikimania 2013 videos

Deryck Chan
In reply to this post by Andrew Lih-2
On 21 January 2014 21:15, Katie Chan <[hidden email]> wrote:
What do you mean by edit? Are we just talking about combining the chunks and then rendering? If so, that's doable. The advantages of sending it to WMF however is that someone there have direct access to the server and can upload quicker / accept bigger file size.

Yes. By "edit" I mean "combine the chunks and cut them into sessions".
 

On 22 January 2014 01:49, Andrew Lih <[hidden email]> wrote:
Yes, that's related to copyright and permissions of the material, but what about that first sentence:

You shall not download any Content unless you see a “download” or similar link displayed by YouTube on the Service for that Content


Jan pointed out that youtube2mediawiki.py doesn't actually "download" the video, so I think we're fine with the provisions of licensor's permission in the sentence below.

Commons is ultra-conservative with copyright, but doesn't really care about any other terms and conditions imposed by anyone else. So I think it's fine to transfer the videos from YouTube to Commons - no copyright is violated and the ambiguity in the YouTube TOS works in our favour.


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Re: Wikimania 2013 videos

Andrew Lih-2

On 22 January 2014 01:49, Andrew Lih <[hidden email]> wrote:
Yes, that's related to copyright and permissions of the material, but what about that first sentence:

You shall not download any Content unless you see a “download” or similar link displayed by YouTube on the Service for that Content


Jan pointed out that youtube2mediawiki.py doesn't actually "download" the video, so I think we're fine with the provisions of licensor's permission in the sentence below.

Well not exactly -- just because the downloading is modularized into a Python script doesn't mean it's not downloading. :) The exact code actually does download:

#download video and save to file.
        u = self.opener.open(url)
        f = open(filename, 'w')
        data = True
        while data:
            data = u.read(4096)
            f.write(data)
        f.close()
        u.close()
        return True
 
Commons is ultra-conservative with copyright, but doesn't really care about any other terms and conditions imposed by anyone else. So I think it's fine to transfer the videos from YouTube to Commons - no copyright is violated and the ambiguity in the YouTube TOS works in our favour.

Yes, I do believe there's not much to worry about in this particular situation. Just be aware that we're running afoul of the TOS, even if Google is lax on enforcement. A violation of TOS could be used to go after users in other less clear-cut cases.

-Andrew


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