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Wikimania - annually, with South Africa in 2018?

Chris Keating-2
Hoi,

I was interested to read the minutes of the most recent Wikimania Committee meeting, which decided that Wikimania will be held annually from now on, and that it will be in sub-Saharan Africa (effectively meaning South Africa) in 2018.

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_Committee/Minutes/2016-06-26

Interestingly, I couldn't see any sign of the Committee's decision being informed by the WMF's consultation on the future of Wikimania, or anyone from the WMF's community engagement department being present. 

I have to say I'm a bit confused, not least about who actually makes the decision about how frequently Wikimania happens. Is anyone able to shed any more light on this?

Thanks,

Chris

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Re: Wikimania - annually, with South Africa in 2018?

Marc-Andre
On 2016-07-08 10:01 AM, Chris Keating wrote:
> Interestingly, I couldn't see any sign of the Committee's decision
> being informed by the WMF's consultation on the future of Wikimania,
> or anyone from the WMF's community engagement department being present.

Wikimania is, and always was, a community led and organized event. The
WMF, as its traditional biggest sponsor[1], has a great deal of
influence in the matter - but ultimately no decision power beyond "fund
and resource or not".

The committee's decision has indeed taken into account the consultation
you refer to - as well as the roundtable discussion on the "Future of
Wikimania" that took place earlier[2].  Our evaluation, which is
reflected in that resolution, is that the consultation was clearly
flawed and that its conclusion does not reflect consensus - neither of
the community members who organize nor of those who attend Wikimania.

-- Coren / Marc

[1] Although "underwrite" might be a better term - the WMF has pretty
much shouldered the vast majority of the costs and given the most
logistical support year in and year out.

[2] Where the consensus was to overwhelmingly reject that consultation's
conclusion in favor or continuing with Wikimania as a yearly even given
its irreplaceable role in our movement.

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Re: Wikimania - annually, with South Africa in 2018?

Chris Keating-2
Thanks Marc.

So - has the WMF committed to fund a 2018 Wikimania? If they haven't, then how is one going to happen?

And while I wasn't entirely sure what to make of the WMF's consultation about the future of Wikimania, I can also see some methodological flaws in conducting a consultation among the group of people who come to the "future of Wikimania" session at Wikimania. 

Regards,

Chris

On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 3:18 PM, Marc-Andre <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 2016-07-08 10:01 AM, Chris Keating wrote:
Interestingly, I couldn't see any sign of the Committee's decision being informed by the WMF's consultation on the future of Wikimania, or anyone from the WMF's community engagement department being present.

Wikimania is, and always was, a community led and organized event. The WMF, as its traditional biggest sponsor[1], has a great deal of influence in the matter - but ultimately no decision power beyond "fund and resource or not".

The committee's decision has indeed taken into account the consultation you refer to - as well as the roundtable discussion on the "Future of Wikimania" that took place earlier[2].  Our evaluation, which is reflected in that resolution, is that the consultation was clearly flawed and that its conclusion does not reflect consensus - neither of the community members who organize nor of those who attend Wikimania.

-- Coren / Marc

[1] Although "underwrite" might be a better term - the WMF has pretty much shouldered the vast majority of the costs and given the most logistical support year in and year out.

[2] Where the consensus was to overwhelmingly reject that consultation's conclusion in favor or continuing with Wikimania as a yearly even given its irreplaceable role in our movement.

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Re: Wikimania - annually, with South Africa in 2018?

Lodewijk
There is only one body that can make funding commitments: the WMF board of trustees. However, theoretically, Wikimania doesn't have to stand or fall with WMF funding. But from what I observed, there's a broad support for this type of decision by this committee among board members. 

Contrary to popular belief, july/august 2018 is still quite far from now, so lets see how things develop in the coming months. 

Thanks for sharing these minutes! 

Best,
Lodewijk

2016-07-08 16:26 GMT+02:00 Chris Keating <[hidden email]>:
Thanks Marc.

So - has the WMF committed to fund a 2018 Wikimania? If they haven't, then how is one going to happen?

And while I wasn't entirely sure what to make of the WMF's consultation about the future of Wikimania, I can also see some methodological flaws in conducting a consultation among the group of people who come to the "future of Wikimania" session at Wikimania. 

Regards,

Chris

On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 3:18 PM, Marc-Andre <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 2016-07-08 10:01 AM, Chris Keating wrote:
Interestingly, I couldn't see any sign of the Committee's decision being informed by the WMF's consultation on the future of Wikimania, or anyone from the WMF's community engagement department being present.

Wikimania is, and always was, a community led and organized event. The WMF, as its traditional biggest sponsor[1], has a great deal of influence in the matter - but ultimately no decision power beyond "fund and resource or not".

The committee's decision has indeed taken into account the consultation you refer to - as well as the roundtable discussion on the "Future of Wikimania" that took place earlier[2].  Our evaluation, which is reflected in that resolution, is that the consultation was clearly flawed and that its conclusion does not reflect consensus - neither of the community members who organize nor of those who attend Wikimania.

-- Coren / Marc

[1] Although "underwrite" might be a better term - the WMF has pretty much shouldered the vast majority of the costs and given the most logistical support year in and year out.

[2] Where the consensus was to overwhelmingly reject that consultation's conclusion in favor or continuing with Wikimania as a yearly even given its irreplaceable role in our movement.

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Re: Wikimania - annually, with South Africa in 2018?

Marc-Andre
On 2016-07-08 10:33 AM, Lodewijk wrote:
> There is only one body that can make funding commitments: the WMF
> board of trustees. However, theoretically, Wikimania doesn't have to
> stand or fall with WMF funding.

That is true, although it would certainly require reexamination of the
scope of the conference.  Hypothetically, the chapters may be able to
take over some of the burden as well.

I suppose you could read the decision of the committee as "we'll do our
best to keep one even a year as long as we are able to rather than
actually attempt to only set one up every other year".

-- Coren / Marc


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Re: Wikimania - annually, with South Africa in 2018?

Andrew Lih-2
In reply to this post by Marc-Andre
While I concur with Coren’s conclusion, I’ll try to neutrally report on the events at Wikimania which led to this result. :)

Full disclosure: I’m a fan of Wikimania being yearly, and was asked to serve on the Wikimania Committee after Esino Lario. I was also the main moderator of the Wikimania 2016 session on the “Future of Wikimania.” These views are my own, and not anything official from the committee.

Background: Many folks (I’d say a majority) who I talked to in Esino Lario early in the conference thought that the decision to do Wikimania every other year was a done deal, as a result of the IdeaLab consultation. I told them that might not necessarily be so. The vote was close, not particularly widely known, and we could still be heard. Chris Schilling from the WMF, who oversaw the Idealab consultation, sought me out specifically at the start of the conference and to my delight, said that the consultation was “just another data point,” and that it was by no means the final word on things. Obviously, this was good news to people who were interested in keeping a yearly Wikimania.

I was scheduled to moderate the “Future of Wikimania” discussion session [1] at the very end of the conference, and encouraged people to let their views be heard. It was under these conditions that we entered into the final discussion room and I asked Chris Schilling to give an opening statement to the room. Most people were happy to hear him say that it was “just another data point.” During the discussion, there was overwhelming support to keep Wikimania going every year, which is not a surprise considering this was *at* Wikimania. I encourage folks to peruse the Etherpad notes, which are quite extensive and expertly done by several folks there.

Some views I’d highlight:
- Having yearly Wikimania is important to keep the momentum of the movement going, according to many
- A case for cancelling yearly Wikimania was to encourage/fund regional meetups. However, there is no guarantee that those regional meetups would actually take place, or that WMF would necessarily take the money saved from Wikimania to fund them. Some folks from Asia specifically said that there is weaker linguistic, cultural and geographic synergy for an “Asian” conference like there is in Europe and Africa, which is why it has been hard to do one.
- One person noted that one trip to Wikimania served the same role as several international trips to get the same benefit from meeting other Wikimedians/developers, so there are indeed cost efficiencies in having a central conference.


-Andrew Lih
Associate professor of journalism, American University
Email: [hidden email]
WEB: http://www.andrewlih.com
BOOK: The Wikipedia Revolution: http://www.wikipediarevolution.com
PROJECT: Wiki Makes Video http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Wiki_Makes_Video

On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 10:18 AM, Marc-Andre <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 2016-07-08 10:01 AM, Chris Keating wrote:
Interestingly, I couldn't see any sign of the Committee's decision being informed by the WMF's consultation on the future of Wikimania, or anyone from the WMF's community engagement department being present.

Wikimania is, and always was, a community led and organized event. The WMF, as its traditional biggest sponsor[1], has a great deal of influence in the matter - but ultimately no decision power beyond "fund and resource or not".

The committee's decision has indeed taken into account the consultation you refer to - as well as the roundtable discussion on the "Future of Wikimania" that took place earlier[2].  Our evaluation, which is reflected in that resolution, is that the consultation was clearly flawed and that its conclusion does not reflect consensus - neither of the community members who organize nor of those who attend Wikimania.

-- Coren / Marc

[1] Although "underwrite" might be a better term - the WMF has pretty much shouldered the vast majority of the costs and given the most logistical support year in and year out.

[2] Where the consensus was to overwhelmingly reject that consultation's conclusion in favor or continuing with Wikimania as a yearly even given its irreplaceable role in our movement.

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Re: Wikimania - annually, with South Africa in 2018?

Ellie Young
In reply to this post by Chris Keating-2


On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 7:26 AM, Chris Keating <[hidden email]> wrote:
Thanks Marc.

So - has the WMF committed to fund a 2018 Wikimania? If they haven't, then how is one going to happen?


​I am working on this with WMF now, as we do need to start planning for 2018 soon in order to ensure a viable team is in place, securing venues well in advance (to save $$), etc   So look for something in the coming month from WMF and the Committee.

Ellie Young
WMF Events Manager
 ​
 

And while I wasn't entirely sure what to make of the WMF's consultation about the future of Wikimania, I can also see some methodological flaws in conducting a consultation among the group of people who come to the "future of Wikimania" session at Wikimania. 

Regards,

Chris

On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 3:18 PM, Marc-Andre <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 2016-07-08 10:01 AM, Chris Keating wrote:
Interestingly, I couldn't see any sign of the Committee's decision being informed by the WMF's consultation on the future of Wikimania, or anyone from the WMF's community engagement department being present.

Wikimania is, and always was, a community led and organized event. The WMF, as its traditional biggest sponsor[1], has a great deal of influence in the matter - but ultimately no decision power beyond "fund and resource or not".

The committee's decision has indeed taken into account the consultation you refer to - as well as the roundtable discussion on the "Future of Wikimania" that took place earlier[2].  Our evaluation, which is reflected in that resolution, is that the consultation was clearly flawed and that its conclusion does not reflect consensus - neither of the community members who organize nor of those who attend Wikimania.

-- Coren / Marc

[1] Although "underwrite" might be a better term - the WMF has pretty much shouldered the vast majority of the costs and given the most logistical support year in and year out.

[2] Where the consensus was to overwhelmingly reject that consultation's conclusion in favor or continuing with Wikimania as a yearly even given its irreplaceable role in our movement.

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--
Ellie Young
Events Manager
Wikimedia Foundation
c. 510 701 8649

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Re: Wikimania - annually, with South Africa in 2018?

Sam Klein
In reply to this post by Lodewijk
On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 10:33 AM, Lodewijk <[hidden email]> wrote:
There is only one body that can make funding commitments: the WMF board of trustees.

Not quite true on a number of levels :)  The Board doesn't directly make funding commitments, it approves them – and wholesale, not line by line.  It would hardly change its approval of an annual budget based on how this 1% of the budget is allocated to travel+events.

The ED could make a meaningful commitment on this front.  As could the broader community of potential organizers and regional organizations.  For instance, a city with regional support & access to a great & inexpensive venue could commit to host a Wikimania in any year when there wasn't a suitable bid elsewhere.  
 
Wikimania doesn't have to stand or fall with WMF funding.

Right.  More specifically, if Wikimania is billed as a costly WMF line-item, organizers will plan for it and attendees will expect it (whatever that means - opulence, ticket prices, number of attendees fully subsidized by the WMF [whether via scholarship or otherwise]).  If it isn't, people will plan and design the conferences differently.

Also noted in the roundtable discussion: WordPress has an interesting model with hundreds of self-funding regional meetings a year, and two international meetings, all of which are significantly lower overhead than Wikimanias but still great community events, fun & productive.  The primary costs of any con are airfare and lodging.  If we make sure that everyone is close to a multinational event hosted somewhere with simple travel & lodging options, whether or not they attend The Largest International Gathering (or whether indeed there is a single one) makes less of a difference. 

SJ


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Re: Wikimania - annually, with South Africa in 2018?

Florence Devouard-6
In reply to this post by Chris Keating-2
Le 08/07/16 à 16:01, Chris Keating a écrit :
> Hoi,
>
> I was interested to read the minutes of the most recent Wikimania
> Committee meeting, which decided that Wikimania will be held annually
> from now on, and that it will be in sub-Saharan Africa (effectively
> meaning South Africa) in 2018.

Pointing out that the minutes do not say that it will be in sub-Saharan
Africa. It says

"The CfP should identify the priority given for that year to Sub-Saharan
Africa, noting that there is expressed interest in hosting in the
Republic of South Africa. "

The difference is subtle, but there is a difference.
The committee actually drafted an official announcement, which was
supposed to be published quickly after the committee minutes.
But we have been asked to refrain from publishing our announcement until
after the WMF has been consulted on the matter.

I am happy to disclose the sentence currently drafted for our (not yet
published) announcement, which is

"Considering this, the Committee has a mild preference for Sub-Saharan
Africa for 2018, but is of course willing to look at proposals for
hosting Wikimania 2018 in other locations. "


Florence


>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_Committee/Minutes/2016-06-26
>
> Interestingly, I couldn't see any sign of the Committee's decision being
> informed by the WMF's consultation on the future of Wikimania, or anyone
> from the WMF's community engagement department being present.
>
> I have to say I'm a bit confused, not least about who actually makes the
> decision about how frequently Wikimania happens. Is anyone able to shed
> any more light on this?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Chris
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>



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Re: Wikimania - annually, with South Africa in 2018?

Lodewijk
Thanks for the clarification, Florence. If I may ask another: the 'interest' expressed, does that refer to interest expressed by South-African Wikimedians, or by the Committee?

Best,
Lodewijk

2016-07-08 21:38 GMT+02:00 Florence Devouard <[hidden email]>:
Le 08/07/16 à 16:01, Chris Keating a écrit :
Hoi,

I was interested to read the minutes of the most recent Wikimania
Committee meeting, which decided that Wikimania will be held annually
from now on, and that it will be in sub-Saharan Africa (effectively
meaning South Africa) in 2018.

Pointing out that the minutes do not say that it will be in sub-Saharan Africa. It says

"The CfP should identify the priority given for that year to Sub-Saharan Africa, noting that there is expressed interest in hosting in the Republic of South Africa. "

The difference is subtle, but there is a difference.
The committee actually drafted an official announcement, which was supposed to be published quickly after the committee minutes.
But we have been asked to refrain from publishing our announcement until after the WMF has been consulted on the matter.

I am happy to disclose the sentence currently drafted for our (not yet published) announcement, which is

"Considering this, the Committee has a mild preference for Sub-Saharan Africa for 2018, but is of course willing to look at proposals for hosting Wikimania 2018 in other locations. "


Florence



https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_Committee/Minutes/2016-06-26

Interestingly, I couldn't see any sign of the Committee's decision being
informed by the WMF's consultation on the future of Wikimania, or anyone
from the WMF's community engagement department being present.

I have to say I'm a bit confused, not least about who actually makes the
decision about how frequently Wikimania happens. Is anyone able to shed
any more light on this?

Thanks,

Chris


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Re: Wikimania - annually, with South Africa in 2018?

Florence Devouard-6
Oh. Good point !

The term "interest" referred to Wikimedia South Africa, which expressed
interest into etc.

During Wikimania, various groups were approached by us (by Ellie). And
other groups approached us. To express their interest in holding
Wikimania in the future.

For example, on Sunday evening, at Pizzeria 51, a few minutes before the
sky decided to fall on our heads, I was told Bangkok was interested for
2020 !

Florence



Le 08/07/16 à 21:50, Lodewijk a écrit :

> Thanks for the clarification, Florence. If I may ask another: the
> 'interest' expressed, does that refer to interest expressed by
> South-African Wikimedians, or by the Committee?
>
> Best,
> Lodewijk
>
> 2016-07-08 21:38 GMT+02:00 Florence Devouard <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>>:
>
>     Le 08/07/16 à 16:01, Chris Keating a écrit :
>
>         Hoi,
>
>         I was interested to read the minutes of the most recent Wikimania
>         Committee meeting, which decided that Wikimania will be held
>         annually
>         from now on, and that it will be in sub-Saharan Africa (effectively
>         meaning South Africa) in 2018.
>
>
>     Pointing out that the minutes do not say that it will be in
>     sub-Saharan Africa. It says
>
>     "The CfP should identify the priority given for that year to
>     Sub-Saharan Africa, noting that there is expressed interest in
>     hosting in the Republic of South Africa. "
>
>     The difference is subtle, but there is a difference.
>     The committee actually drafted an official announcement, which was
>     supposed to be published quickly after the committee minutes.
>     But we have been asked to refrain from publishing our announcement
>     until after the WMF has been consulted on the matter.
>
>     I am happy to disclose the sentence currently drafted for our (not
>     yet published) announcement, which is
>
>     "Considering this, the Committee has a mild preference for
>     Sub-Saharan Africa for 2018, but is of course willing to look at
>     proposals for hosting Wikimania 2018 in other locations. "
>
>
>     Florence
>
>
>
>         https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_Committee/Minutes/2016-06-26
>
>         Interestingly, I couldn't see any sign of the Committee's
>         decision being
>         informed by the WMF's consultation on the future of Wikimania,
>         or anyone
>         from the WMF's community engagement department being present.
>
>         I have to say I'm a bit confused, not least about who actually
>         makes the
>         decision about how frequently Wikimania happens. Is anyone able
>         to shed
>         any more light on this?
>
>         Thanks,
>
>         Chris
>
>
>         _______________________________________________
>         Wikimania-l mailing list
>         [hidden email]
>         <mailto:[hidden email]>
>         https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     Wikimania-l mailing list
>     [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>



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Re: Wikimania - annually, with South Africa in 2018?

Gnangarra
In reply to this post by Lodewijk
Noting that Wikimedia Australia has also expressed its interest in holding Wikimania in 2018 in Perth, it has a number of significant sponsorship offers already on the table all of which had been communicated to Ellie,  

the sponsorship offers includes venue fees, travel costs and other assistance amounting to several hundred thousand Australian dollars


On 9 July 2016 at 03:50, Lodewijk <[hidden email]> wrote:
Thanks for the clarification, Florence. If I may ask another: the 'interest' expressed, does that refer to interest expressed by South-African Wikimedians, or by the Committee?

Best,
Lodewijk

2016-07-08 21:38 GMT+02:00 Florence Devouard <[hidden email]>:
Le 08/07/16 à 16:01, Chris Keating a écrit :
Hoi,

I was interested to read the minutes of the most recent Wikimania
Committee meeting, which decided that Wikimania will be held annually
from now on, and that it will be in sub-Saharan Africa (effectively
meaning South Africa) in 2018.

Pointing out that the minutes do not say that it will be in sub-Saharan Africa. It says

"The CfP should identify the priority given for that year to Sub-Saharan Africa, noting that there is expressed interest in hosting in the Republic of South Africa. "

The difference is subtle, but there is a difference.
The committee actually drafted an official announcement, which was supposed to be published quickly after the committee minutes.
But we have been asked to refrain from publishing our announcement until after the WMF has been consulted on the matter.

I am happy to disclose the sentence currently drafted for our (not yet published) announcement, which is

"Considering this, the Committee has a mild preference for Sub-Saharan Africa for 2018, but is of course willing to look at proposals for hosting Wikimania 2018 in other locations. "


Florence



https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_Committee/Minutes/2016-06-26

Interestingly, I couldn't see any sign of the Committee's decision being
informed by the WMF's consultation on the future of Wikimania, or anyone
from the WMF's community engagement department being present.

I have to say I'm a bit confused, not least about who actually makes the
decision about how frequently Wikimania happens. Is anyone able to shed
any more light on this?

Thanks,

Chris


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GN.
President Wikimedia Australia
WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com


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Re: Wikimania - annually, with South Africa in 2018?

Christophe Henner-3
In reply to this post by Andrew Lih-2

Hi everyone,

The same question was raised to the board a few days ago by chairs of Wikimedia organizations asking Foundation's board to make sure there's a comprehensive decision on this very topic. 

The chairs letter wasn't public, I let them share it on meta or here if they want to :)

First step, in my opinion, is to set expectations and define the scope (in the role of the event but also in the ressources (both human and financial) we commit to the event. 

Katherine is working with the staff to provide groundings.

Here is the answer I provided them with. 

----

Hi chairs!

First of all, thank you with the email, the feedback is clearly useful and raises interesting point. 

Now, the Wikimania discussion definitly is on the table. Living by what we said during Wikimania, we, as WMF, will make sure we end up with a clear answer to your questions but also to the different points you raise. 

Wikimania is an important time in our movement, but as you said it also comes with costs and challenges that we have to adress. Katherine is going to meet in the coming days with the staff in charge of that topic to start that discussion within WMF and provide groundings for a comprehensive decision. 

We will try to be as diligent as possible on that topic, but I would ask you to keep in mind that as we're in a transition phase and that might take a little more time than you could expect. 

Again thank you for your email, I love the fact that he raises issues but also includes the challenges we have to take care of :)

We'll get back to you as soon as possible to continue that discussion.

Have all a really great day / night :)

Christophe

While I concur with Coren’s conclusion, I’ll try to neutrally report on the events at Wikimania which led to this result. :)

Full disclosure: I’m a fan of Wikimania being yearly, and was asked to serve on the Wikimania Committee after Esino Lario. I was also the main moderator of the Wikimania 2016 session on the “Future of Wikimania.” These views are my own, and not anything official from the committee.

Background: Many folks (I’d say a majority) who I talked to in Esino Lario early in the conference thought that the decision to do Wikimania every other year was a done deal, as a result of the IdeaLab consultation. I told them that might not necessarily be so. The vote was close, not particularly widely known, and we could still be heard. Chris Schilling from the WMF, who oversaw the Idealab consultation, sought me out specifically at the start of the conference and to my delight, said that the consultation was “just another data point,” and that it was by no means the final word on things. Obviously, this was good news to people who were interested in keeping a yearly Wikimania.

I was scheduled to moderate the “Future of Wikimania” discussion session [1] at the very end of the conference, and encouraged people to let their views be heard. It was under these conditions that we entered into the final discussion room and I asked Chris Schilling to give an opening statement to the room. Most people were happy to hear him say that it was “just another data point.” During the discussion, there was overwhelming support to keep Wikimania going every year, which is not a surprise considering this was *at* Wikimania. I encourage folks to peruse the Etherpad notes, which are quite extensive and expertly done by several folks there.

Some views I’d highlight:
- Having yearly Wikimania is important to keep the momentum of the movement going, according to many
- A case for cancelling yearly Wikimania was to encourage/fund regional meetups. However, there is no guarantee that those regional meetups would actually take place, or that WMF would necessarily take the money saved from Wikimania to fund them. Some folks from Asia specifically said that there is weaker linguistic, cultural and geographic synergy for an “Asian” conference like there is in Europe and Africa, which is why it has been hard to do one.
- One person noted that one trip to Wikimania served the same role as several international trips to get the same benefit from meeting other Wikimedians/developers, so there are indeed cost efficiencies in having a central conference.


-Andrew Lih
Associate professor of journalism, American University
Email: [hidden email]
WEB: http://www.andrewlih.com
BOOK: The Wikipedia Revolution: http://www.wikipediarevolution.com
PROJECT: Wiki Makes Video http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Wiki_Makes_Video

On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 10:18 AM, Marc-Andre <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 2016-07-08 10:01 AM, Chris Keating wrote:
Interestingly, I couldn't see any sign of the Committee's decision being informed by the WMF's consultation on the future of Wikimania, or anyone from the WMF's community engagement department being present.

Wikimania is, and always was, a community led and organized event. The WMF, as its traditional biggest sponsor[1], has a great deal of influence in the matter - but ultimately no decision power beyond "fund and resource or not".

The committee's decision has indeed taken into account the consultation you refer to - as well as the roundtable discussion on the "Future of Wikimania" that took place earlier[2].  Our evaluation, which is reflected in that resolution, is that the consultation was clearly flawed and that its conclusion does not reflect consensus - neither of the community members who organize nor of those who attend Wikimania.

-- Coren / Marc

[1] Although "underwrite" might be a better term - the WMF has pretty much shouldered the vast majority of the costs and given the most logistical support year in and year out.

[2] Where the consensus was to overwhelmingly reject that consultation's conclusion in favor or continuing with Wikimania as a yearly even given its irreplaceable role in our movement.

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[hidden email]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l


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https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l


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Re: Wikimania - annually, with South Africa in 2018?

Pine W

Thanks Christophe. I, for one, have had difficulty figuring out what is going on with Wikimania in regards to varying decisions in different parts of WMF and the community, so I look forward to the clarifications.

Personally I am currently neutral on the decision of whether to have annual Wikimanias, or alternate Wikimanias with years in which there is emphasis on national or regional conferences. My hunch is that some research about costs and benefits is needed so that we have reliable data about a variety of scenarios before making a decision.

Thanks again for working on this.

To the board chairs: I would be interested in seeing that letter. In the spirit of transparency, would you please publish it on Meta? As you know I am an advocate for much more transparency from WMF, and I would like for the affiliates to also to be transparent about governance matters such as this one.

Thanks,

Pine

On Jul 8, 2016 19:18, "Christophe Henner" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi everyone,

The same question was raised to the board a few days ago by chairs of Wikimedia organizations asking Foundation's board to make sure there's a comprehensive decision on this very topic. 

The chairs letter wasn't public, I let them share it on meta or here if they want to :)

First step, in my opinion, is to set expectations and define the scope (in the role of the event but also in the ressources (both human and financial) we commit to the event. 

Katherine is working with the staff to provide groundings.

Here is the answer I provided them with. 

----

Hi chairs!

First of all, thank you with the email, the feedback is clearly useful and raises interesting point. 

Now, the Wikimania discussion definitly is on the table. Living by what we said during Wikimania, we, as WMF, will make sure we end up with a clear answer to your questions but also to the different points you raise. 

Wikimania is an important time in our movement, but as you said it also comes with costs and challenges that we have to adress. Katherine is going to meet in the coming days with the staff in charge of that topic to start that discussion within WMF and provide groundings for a comprehensive decision. 

We will try to be as diligent as possible on that topic, but I would ask you to keep in mind that as we're in a transition phase and that might take a little more time than you could expect. 

Again thank you for your email, I love the fact that he raises issues but also includes the challenges we have to take care of :)

We'll get back to you as soon as possible to continue that discussion.

Have all a really great day / night :)

Christophe

While I concur with Coren’s conclusion, I’ll try to neutrally report on the events at Wikimania which led to this result. :)

Full disclosure: I’m a fan of Wikimania being yearly, and was asked to serve on the Wikimania Committee after Esino Lario. I was also the main moderator of the Wikimania 2016 session on the “Future of Wikimania.” These views are my own, and not anything official from the committee.

Background: Many folks (I’d say a majority) who I talked to in Esino Lario early in the conference thought that the decision to do Wikimania every other year was a done deal, as a result of the IdeaLab consultation. I told them that might not necessarily be so. The vote was close, not particularly widely known, and we could still be heard. Chris Schilling from the WMF, who oversaw the Idealab consultation, sought me out specifically at the start of the conference and to my delight, said that the consultation was “just another data point,” and that it was by no means the final word on things. Obviously, this was good news to people who were interested in keeping a yearly Wikimania.

I was scheduled to moderate the “Future of Wikimania” discussion session [1] at the very end of the conference, and encouraged people to let their views be heard. It was under these conditions that we entered into the final discussion room and I asked Chris Schilling to give an opening statement to the room. Most people were happy to hear him say that it was “just another data point.” During the discussion, there was overwhelming support to keep Wikimania going every year, which is not a surprise considering this was *at* Wikimania. I encourage folks to peruse the Etherpad notes, which are quite extensive and expertly done by several folks there.

Some views I’d highlight:
- Having yearly Wikimania is important to keep the momentum of the movement going, according to many
- A case for cancelling yearly Wikimania was to encourage/fund regional meetups. However, there is no guarantee that those regional meetups would actually take place, or that WMF would necessarily take the money saved from Wikimania to fund them. Some folks from Asia specifically said that there is weaker linguistic, cultural and geographic synergy for an “Asian” conference like there is in Europe and Africa, which is why it has been hard to do one.
- One person noted that one trip to Wikimania served the same role as several international trips to get the same benefit from meeting other Wikimedians/developers, so there are indeed cost efficiencies in having a central conference.


-Andrew Lih
Associate professor of journalism, American University
Email: [hidden email]
WEB: http://www.andrewlih.com
BOOK: The Wikipedia Revolution: http://www.wikipediarevolution.com
PROJECT: Wiki Makes Video http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Wiki_Makes_Video

On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 10:18 AM, Marc-Andre <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 2016-07-08 10:01 AM, Chris Keating wrote:
Interestingly, I couldn't see any sign of the Committee's decision being informed by the WMF's consultation on the future of Wikimania, or anyone from the WMF's community engagement department being present.

Wikimania is, and always was, a community led and organized event. The WMF, as its traditional biggest sponsor[1], has a great deal of influence in the matter - but ultimately no decision power beyond "fund and resource or not".

The committee's decision has indeed taken into account the consultation you refer to - as well as the roundtable discussion on the "Future of Wikimania" that took place earlier[2].  Our evaluation, which is reflected in that resolution, is that the consultation was clearly flawed and that its conclusion does not reflect consensus - neither of the community members who organize nor of those who attend Wikimania.

-- Coren / Marc

[1] Although "underwrite" might be a better term - the WMF has pretty much shouldered the vast majority of the costs and given the most logistical support year in and year out.

[2] Where the consensus was to overwhelmingly reject that consultation's conclusion in favor or continuing with Wikimania as a yearly even given its irreplaceable role in our movement.

_______________________________________________
Wikimania-l mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l


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[hidden email]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l


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[hidden email]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l


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Re: Wikimania - annually, with South Africa in 2018?

Christophe Henner-3
In reply to this post by Chris Keating-2

My bad I forgot it already is on meta https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters/Statements/Chapter_chairs_statement:_Wikimania_needs_to_be_arranged_every_year

Le 9 juil. 2016 4:50 AM, "Pine W" <[hidden email]> a écrit :

Thanks Christophe. I, for one, have had difficulty figuring out what is going on with Wikimania in regards to varying decisions in different parts of WMF and the community, so I look forward to the clarifications.

Personally I am currently neutral on the decision of whether to have annual Wikimanias, or alternate Wikimanias with years in which there is emphasis on national or regional conferences. My hunch is that some research about costs and benefits is needed so that we have reliable data about a variety of scenarios before making a decision.

Thanks again for working on this.

To the board chairs: I would be interested in seeing that letter. In the spirit of transparency, would you please publish it on Meta? As you know I am an advocate for much more transparency from WMF, and I would like for the affiliates to also to be transparent about governance matters such as this one.

Thanks,

Pine

On Jul 8, 2016 19:18, "Christophe Henner" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi everyone,

The same question was raised to the board a few days ago by chairs of Wikimedia organizations asking Foundation's board to make sure there's a comprehensive decision on this very topic. 

The chairs letter wasn't public, I let them share it on meta or here if they want to :)

First step, in my opinion, is to set expectations and define the scope (in the role of the event but also in the ressources (both human and financial) we commit to the event. 

Katherine is working with the staff to provide groundings.

Here is the answer I provided them with. 

----

Hi chairs!

First of all, thank you with the email, the feedback is clearly useful and raises interesting point. 

Now, the Wikimania discussion definitly is on the table. Living by what we said during Wikimania, we, as WMF, will make sure we end up with a clear answer to your questions but also to the different points you raise. 

Wikimania is an important time in our movement, but as you said it also comes with costs and challenges that we have to adress. Katherine is going to meet in the coming days with the staff in charge of that topic to start that discussion within WMF and provide groundings for a comprehensive decision. 

We will try to be as diligent as possible on that topic, but I would ask you to keep in mind that as we're in a transition phase and that might take a little more time than you could expect. 

Again thank you for your email, I love the fact that he raises issues but also includes the challenges we have to take care of :)

We'll get back to you as soon as possible to continue that discussion.

Have all a really great day / night :)

Christophe

While I concur with Coren’s conclusion, I’ll try to neutrally report on the events at Wikimania which led to this result. :)

Full disclosure: I’m a fan of Wikimania being yearly, and was asked to serve on the Wikimania Committee after Esino Lario. I was also the main moderator of the Wikimania 2016 session on the “Future of Wikimania.” These views are my own, and not anything official from the committee.

Background: Many folks (I’d say a majority) who I talked to in Esino Lario early in the conference thought that the decision to do Wikimania every other year was a done deal, as a result of the IdeaLab consultation. I told them that might not necessarily be so. The vote was close, not particularly widely known, and we could still be heard. Chris Schilling from the WMF, who oversaw the Idealab consultation, sought me out specifically at the start of the conference and to my delight, said that the consultation was “just another data point,” and that it was by no means the final word on things. Obviously, this was good news to people who were interested in keeping a yearly Wikimania.

I was scheduled to moderate the “Future of Wikimania” discussion session [1] at the very end of the conference, and encouraged people to let their views be heard. It was under these conditions that we entered into the final discussion room and I asked Chris Schilling to give an opening statement to the room. Most people were happy to hear him say that it was “just another data point.” During the discussion, there was overwhelming support to keep Wikimania going every year, which is not a surprise considering this was *at* Wikimania. I encourage folks to peruse the Etherpad notes, which are quite extensive and expertly done by several folks there.

Some views I’d highlight:
- Having yearly Wikimania is important to keep the momentum of the movement going, according to many
- A case for cancelling yearly Wikimania was to encourage/fund regional meetups. However, there is no guarantee that those regional meetups would actually take place, or that WMF would necessarily take the money saved from Wikimania to fund them. Some folks from Asia specifically said that there is weaker linguistic, cultural and geographic synergy for an “Asian” conference like there is in Europe and Africa, which is why it has been hard to do one.
- One person noted that one trip to Wikimania served the same role as several international trips to get the same benefit from meeting other Wikimedians/developers, so there are indeed cost efficiencies in having a central conference.


-Andrew Lih
Associate professor of journalism, American University
Email: [hidden email]
WEB: http://www.andrewlih.com
BOOK: The Wikipedia Revolution: http://www.wikipediarevolution.com
PROJECT: Wiki Makes Video http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Wiki_Makes_Video

On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 10:18 AM, Marc-Andre <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 2016-07-08 10:01 AM, Chris Keating wrote:
Interestingly, I couldn't see any sign of the Committee's decision being informed by the WMF's consultation on the future of Wikimania, or anyone from the WMF's community engagement department being present.

Wikimania is, and always was, a community led and organized event. The WMF, as its traditional biggest sponsor[1], has a great deal of influence in the matter - but ultimately no decision power beyond "fund and resource or not".

The committee's decision has indeed taken into account the consultation you refer to - as well as the roundtable discussion on the "Future of Wikimania" that took place earlier[2].  Our evaluation, which is reflected in that resolution, is that the consultation was clearly flawed and that its conclusion does not reflect consensus - neither of the community members who organize nor of those who attend Wikimania.

-- Coren / Marc

[1] Although "underwrite" might be a better term - the WMF has pretty much shouldered the vast majority of the costs and given the most logistical support year in and year out.

[2] Where the consensus was to overwhelmingly reject that consultation's conclusion in favor or continuing with Wikimania as a yearly even given its irreplaceable role in our movement.

_______________________________________________
Wikimania-l mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l


_______________________________________________
Wikimania-l mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l


_______________________________________________
Wikimania-l mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l


_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l


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Re: Wikimania - annually, with South Africa in 2018?

Andrew Lih-2
Yes, and I should have also mentioned that this statement from the chairs was read out loud during the Esino Lario discussion session on “The Future of Wikimania.”

-Andrew


-Andrew Lih
Associate professor of journalism, American University
Email: [hidden email]
WEB: http://www.andrewlih.com
BOOK: The Wikipedia Revolution: http://www.wikipediarevolution.com
PROJECT: Wiki Makes Video http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Wiki_Makes_Video

On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 11:04 PM, Christophe Henner <[hidden email]> wrote:

My bad I forgot it already is on meta https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters/Statements/Chapter_chairs_statement:_Wikimania_needs_to_be_arranged_every_year

Le 9 juil. 2016 4:50 AM, "Pine W" <[hidden email]> a écrit :

Thanks Christophe. I, for one, have had difficulty figuring out what is going on with Wikimania in regards to varying decisions in different parts of WMF and the community, so I look forward to the clarifications.

Personally I am currently neutral on the decision of whether to have annual Wikimanias, or alternate Wikimanias with years in which there is emphasis on national or regional conferences. My hunch is that some research about costs and benefits is needed so that we have reliable data about a variety of scenarios before making a decision.

Thanks again for working on this.

To the board chairs: I would be interested in seeing that letter. In the spirit of transparency, would you please publish it on Meta? As you know I am an advocate for much more transparency from WMF, and I would like for the affiliates to also to be transparent about governance matters such as this one.

Thanks,

Pine

On Jul 8, 2016 19:18, "Christophe Henner" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi everyone,

The same question was raised to the board a few days ago by chairs of Wikimedia organizations asking Foundation's board to make sure there's a comprehensive decision on this very topic. 

The chairs letter wasn't public, I let them share it on meta or here if they want to :)

First step, in my opinion, is to set expectations and define the scope (in the role of the event but also in the ressources (both human and financial) we commit to the event. 

Katherine is working with the staff to provide groundings.

Here is the answer I provided them with. 

----

Hi chairs!

First of all, thank you with the email, the feedback is clearly useful and raises interesting point. 

Now, the Wikimania discussion definitly is on the table. Living by what we said during Wikimania, we, as WMF, will make sure we end up with a clear answer to your questions but also to the different points you raise. 

Wikimania is an important time in our movement, but as you said it also comes with costs and challenges that we have to adress. Katherine is going to meet in the coming days with the staff in charge of that topic to start that discussion within WMF and provide groundings for a comprehensive decision. 

We will try to be as diligent as possible on that topic, but I would ask you to keep in mind that as we're in a transition phase and that might take a little more time than you could expect. 

Again thank you for your email, I love the fact that he raises issues but also includes the challenges we have to take care of :)

We'll get back to you as soon as possible to continue that discussion.

Have all a really great day / night :)

Christophe

While I concur with Coren’s conclusion, I’ll try to neutrally report on the events at Wikimania which led to this result. :)

Full disclosure: I’m a fan of Wikimania being yearly, and was asked to serve on the Wikimania Committee after Esino Lario. I was also the main moderator of the Wikimania 2016 session on the “Future of Wikimania.” These views are my own, and not anything official from the committee.

Background: Many folks (I’d say a majority) who I talked to in Esino Lario early in the conference thought that the decision to do Wikimania every other year was a done deal, as a result of the IdeaLab consultation. I told them that might not necessarily be so. The vote was close, not particularly widely known, and we could still be heard. Chris Schilling from the WMF, who oversaw the Idealab consultation, sought me out specifically at the start of the conference and to my delight, said that the consultation was “just another data point,” and that it was by no means the final word on things. Obviously, this was good news to people who were interested in keeping a yearly Wikimania.

I was scheduled to moderate the “Future of Wikimania” discussion session [1] at the very end of the conference, and encouraged people to let their views be heard. It was under these conditions that we entered into the final discussion room and I asked Chris Schilling to give an opening statement to the room. Most people were happy to hear him say that it was “just another data point.” During the discussion, there was overwhelming support to keep Wikimania going every year, which is not a surprise considering this was *at* Wikimania. I encourage folks to peruse the Etherpad notes, which are quite extensive and expertly done by several folks there.

Some views I’d highlight:
- Having yearly Wikimania is important to keep the momentum of the movement going, according to many
- A case for cancelling yearly Wikimania was to encourage/fund regional meetups. However, there is no guarantee that those regional meetups would actually take place, or that WMF would necessarily take the money saved from Wikimania to fund them. Some folks from Asia specifically said that there is weaker linguistic, cultural and geographic synergy for an “Asian” conference like there is in Europe and Africa, which is why it has been hard to do one.
- One person noted that one trip to Wikimania served the same role as several international trips to get the same benefit from meeting other Wikimedians/developers, so there are indeed cost efficiencies in having a central conference.


-Andrew Lih
Associate professor of journalism, American University
Email: [hidden email]
WEB: http://www.andrewlih.com
BOOK: The Wikipedia Revolution: http://www.wikipediarevolution.com
PROJECT: Wiki Makes Video http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Wiki_Makes_Video

On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 10:18 AM, Marc-Andre <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 2016-07-08 10:01 AM, Chris Keating wrote:
Interestingly, I couldn't see any sign of the Committee's decision being informed by the WMF's consultation on the future of Wikimania, or anyone from the WMF's community engagement department being present.

Wikimania is, and always was, a community led and organized event. The WMF, as its traditional biggest sponsor[1], has a great deal of influence in the matter - but ultimately no decision power beyond "fund and resource or not".

The committee's decision has indeed taken into account the consultation you refer to - as well as the roundtable discussion on the "Future of Wikimania" that took place earlier[2].  Our evaluation, which is reflected in that resolution, is that the consultation was clearly flawed and that its conclusion does not reflect consensus - neither of the community members who organize nor of those who attend Wikimania.

-- Coren / Marc

[1] Although "underwrite" might be a better term - the WMF has pretty much shouldered the vast majority of the costs and given the most logistical support year in and year out.

[2] Where the consensus was to overwhelmingly reject that consultation's conclusion in favor or continuing with Wikimania as a yearly even given its irreplaceable role in our movement.

_______________________________________________
Wikimania-l mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l


_______________________________________________
Wikimania-l mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l


_______________________________________________
Wikimania-l mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l


_______________________________________________
Wikimania-l mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l


_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l



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Re: Wikimania - annually, with South Africa in 2018?

Pine W
In reply to this post by Christophe Henner-3

Thank you. I find it confusing that the letter starts with "The chairpersons of the Wikimedia chapters state that Wikimania needs to be arranged every year," which implies that all of the chapter chairs are united in agreement, but it appears several chapters didn't sign the letter. Looking further at the content of the letter, I would have some questions about some of the statements that were made there. In the future, I would encourage chapter chairs to have discussions about matters such as this on the Affiliates mailing list so that we can have more inclusive discussions among more affiliates before sending letters like that. The Wikimania situation is already convoluted, and I believe that letters such as this should get fuller discussion among affiliates before they are sent to WMF.

Thanks,

Pine

On Jul 8, 2016 20:04, "Christophe Henner" <[hidden email]> wrote:

My bad I forgot it already is on meta https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters/Statements/Chapter_chairs_statement:_Wikimania_needs_to_be_arranged_every_year

Le 9 juil. 2016 4:50 AM, "Pine W" <[hidden email]> a écrit :

Thanks Christophe. I, for one, have had difficulty figuring out what is going on with Wikimania in regards to varying decisions in different parts of WMF and the community, so I look forward to the clarifications.

Personally I am currently neutral on the decision of whether to have annual Wikimanias, or alternate Wikimanias with years in which there is emphasis on national or regional conferences. My hunch is that some research about costs and benefits is needed so that we have reliable data about a variety of scenarios before making a decision.

Thanks again for working on this.

To the board chairs: I would be interested in seeing that letter. In the spirit of transparency, would you please publish it on Meta? As you know I am an advocate for much more transparency from WMF, and I would like for the affiliates to also to be transparent about governance matters such as this one.

Thanks,

Pine

On Jul 8, 2016 19:18, "Christophe Henner" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi everyone,

The same question was raised to the board a few days ago by chairs of Wikimedia organizations asking Foundation's board to make sure there's a comprehensive decision on this very topic. 

The chairs letter wasn't public, I let them share it on meta or here if they want to :)

First step, in my opinion, is to set expectations and define the scope (in the role of the event but also in the ressources (both human and financial) we commit to the event. 

Katherine is working with the staff to provide groundings.

Here is the answer I provided them with. 

----

Hi chairs!

First of all, thank you with the email, the feedback is clearly useful and raises interesting point. 

Now, the Wikimania discussion definitly is on the table. Living by what we said during Wikimania, we, as WMF, will make sure we end up with a clear answer to your questions but also to the different points you raise. 

Wikimania is an important time in our movement, but as you said it also comes with costs and challenges that we have to adress. Katherine is going to meet in the coming days with the staff in charge of that topic to start that discussion within WMF and provide groundings for a comprehensive decision. 

We will try to be as diligent as possible on that topic, but I would ask you to keep in mind that as we're in a transition phase and that might take a little more time than you could expect. 

Again thank you for your email, I love the fact that he raises issues but also includes the challenges we have to take care of :)

We'll get back to you as soon as possible to continue that discussion.

Have all a really great day / night :)

Christophe

While I concur with Coren’s conclusion, I’ll try to neutrally report on the events at Wikimania which led to this result. :)

Full disclosure: I’m a fan of Wikimania being yearly, and was asked to serve on the Wikimania Committee after Esino Lario. I was also the main moderator of the Wikimania 2016 session on the “Future of Wikimania.” These views are my own, and not anything official from the committee.

Background: Many folks (I’d say a majority) who I talked to in Esino Lario early in the conference thought that the decision to do Wikimania every other year was a done deal, as a result of the IdeaLab consultation. I told them that might not necessarily be so. The vote was close, not particularly widely known, and we could still be heard. Chris Schilling from the WMF, who oversaw the Idealab consultation, sought me out specifically at the start of the conference and to my delight, said that the consultation was “just another data point,” and that it was by no means the final word on things. Obviously, this was good news to people who were interested in keeping a yearly Wikimania.

I was scheduled to moderate the “Future of Wikimania” discussion session [1] at the very end of the conference, and encouraged people to let their views be heard. It was under these conditions that we entered into the final discussion room and I asked Chris Schilling to give an opening statement to the room. Most people were happy to hear him say that it was “just another data point.” During the discussion, there was overwhelming support to keep Wikimania going every year, which is not a surprise considering this was *at* Wikimania. I encourage folks to peruse the Etherpad notes, which are quite extensive and expertly done by several folks there.

Some views I’d highlight:
- Having yearly Wikimania is important to keep the momentum of the movement going, according to many
- A case for cancelling yearly Wikimania was to encourage/fund regional meetups. However, there is no guarantee that those regional meetups would actually take place, or that WMF would necessarily take the money saved from Wikimania to fund them. Some folks from Asia specifically said that there is weaker linguistic, cultural and geographic synergy for an “Asian” conference like there is in Europe and Africa, which is why it has been hard to do one.
- One person noted that one trip to Wikimania served the same role as several international trips to get the same benefit from meeting other Wikimedians/developers, so there are indeed cost efficiencies in having a central conference.


-Andrew Lih
Associate professor of journalism, American University
Email: [hidden email]
WEB: http://www.andrewlih.com
BOOK: The Wikipedia Revolution: http://www.wikipediarevolution.com
PROJECT: Wiki Makes Video http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Wiki_Makes_Video

On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 10:18 AM, Marc-Andre <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 2016-07-08 10:01 AM, Chris Keating wrote:
Interestingly, I couldn't see any sign of the Committee's decision being informed by the WMF's consultation on the future of Wikimania, or anyone from the WMF's community engagement department being present.

Wikimania is, and always was, a community led and organized event. The WMF, as its traditional biggest sponsor[1], has a great deal of influence in the matter - but ultimately no decision power beyond "fund and resource or not".

The committee's decision has indeed taken into account the consultation you refer to - as well as the roundtable discussion on the "Future of Wikimania" that took place earlier[2].  Our evaluation, which is reflected in that resolution, is that the consultation was clearly flawed and that its conclusion does not reflect consensus - neither of the community members who organize nor of those who attend Wikimania.

-- Coren / Marc

[1] Although "underwrite" might be a better term - the WMF has pretty much shouldered the vast majority of the costs and given the most logistical support year in and year out.

[2] Where the consensus was to overwhelmingly reject that consultation's conclusion in favor or continuing with Wikimania as a yearly even given its irreplaceable role in our movement.

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Re: Wikimania - annually, with South Africa in 2018?

Josh Lim
I actually agree with Pine on this one.

I’m actually very disturbed that no chapter from a developing country (with the possible exceptions of Mexico and Argentina) signed off on this letter during Wikimania, despite the presence of a number of affiliates from those countries at Wikimania.  Inasmuch as I agree that Wikimania should be held yearly, the way this statement is worded makes it appear that we all agreed to it when in fact not everyone did.  In fact, did the people who attended this meeting even try soliciting input from affiliates in developing countries, whether they be the ones who were at Wikimania or who weren’t?

Thanks,

Josh

On Jul 8, 2016, at 11:33 PM, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:

Thank you. I find it confusing that the letter starts with "The chairpersons of the Wikimedia chapters state that Wikimania needs to be arranged every year," which implies that all of the chapter chairs are united in agreement, but it appears several chapters didn't sign the letter. Looking further at the content of the letter, I would have some questions about some of the statements that were made there. In the future, I would encourage chapter chairs to have discussions about matters such as this on the Affiliates mailing list so that we can have more inclusive discussions among more affiliates before sending letters like that. The Wikimania situation is already convoluted, and I believe that letters such as this should get fuller discussion among affiliates before they are sent to WMF.

Thanks,

Pine

On Jul 8, 2016 20:04, "Christophe Henner" <[hidden email]> wrote:

My bad I forgot it already is on meta https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters/Statements/Chapter_chairs_statement:_Wikimania_needs_to_be_arranged_every_year

Le 9 juil. 2016 4:50 AM, "Pine W" <[hidden email]> a écrit :

Thanks Christophe. I, for one, have had difficulty figuring out what is going on with Wikimania in regards to varying decisions in different parts of WMF and the community, so I look forward to the clarifications.

Personally I am currently neutral on the decision of whether to have annual Wikimanias, or alternate Wikimanias with years in which there is emphasis on national or regional conferences. My hunch is that some research about costs and benefits is needed so that we have reliable data about a variety of scenarios before making a decision.

Thanks again for working on this.

To the board chairs: I would be interested in seeing that letter. In the spirit of transparency, would you please publish it on Meta? As you know I am an advocate for much more transparency from WMF, and I would like for the affiliates to also to be transparent about governance matters such as this one.

Thanks,

Pine

On Jul 8, 2016 19:18, "Christophe Henner" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi everyone,

The same question was raised to the board a few days ago by chairs of Wikimedia organizations asking Foundation's board to make sure there's a comprehensive decision on this very topic. 

The chairs letter wasn't public, I let them share it on meta or here if they want to :)

First step, in my opinion, is to set expectations and define the scope (in the role of the event but also in the ressources (both human and financial) we commit to the event. 

Katherine is working with the staff to provide groundings.

Here is the answer I provided them with. 

----

Hi chairs!

First of all, thank you with the email, the feedback is clearly useful and raises interesting point. 

Now, the Wikimania discussion definitly is on the table. Living by what we said during Wikimania, we, as WMF, will make sure we end up with a clear answer to your questions but also to the different points you raise. 

Wikimania is an important time in our movement, but as you said it also comes with costs and challenges that we have to adress. Katherine is going to meet in the coming days with the staff in charge of that topic to start that discussion within WMF and provide groundings for a comprehensive decision. 

We will try to be as diligent as possible on that topic, but I would ask you to keep in mind that as we're in a transition phase and that might take a little more time than you could expect. 

Again thank you for your email, I love the fact that he raises issues but also includes the challenges we have to take care of :)

We'll get back to you as soon as possible to continue that discussion.

Have all a really great day / night :)

Christophe

While I concur with Coren’s conclusion, I’ll try to neutrally report on the events at Wikimania which led to this result. :)

Full disclosure: I’m a fan of Wikimania being yearly, and was asked to serve on the Wikimania Committee after Esino Lario. I was also the main moderator of the Wikimania 2016 session on the “Future of Wikimania.” These views are my own, and not anything official from the committee.

Background: Many folks (I’d say a majority) who I talked to in Esino Lario early in the conference thought that the decision to do Wikimania every other year was a done deal, as a result of the IdeaLab consultation. I told them that might not necessarily be so. The vote was close, not particularly widely known, and we could still be heard. Chris Schilling from the WMF, who oversaw the Idealab consultation, sought me out specifically at the start of the conference and to my delight, said that the consultation was “just another data point,” and that it was by no means the final word on things. Obviously, this was good news to people who were interested in keeping a yearly Wikimania.

I was scheduled to moderate the “Future of Wikimania” discussion session [1] at the very end of the conference, and encouraged people to let their views be heard. It was under these conditions that we entered into the final discussion room and I asked Chris Schilling to give an opening statement to the room. Most people were happy to hear him say that it was “just another data point.” During the discussion, there was overwhelming support to keep Wikimania going every year, which is not a surprise considering this was *at* Wikimania. I encourage folks to peruse the Etherpad notes, which are quite extensive and expertly done by several folks there.

Some views I’d highlight:
- Having yearly Wikimania is important to keep the momentum of the movement going, according to many
- A case for cancelling yearly Wikimania was to encourage/fund regional meetups. However, there is no guarantee that those regional meetups would actually take place, or that WMF would necessarily take the money saved from Wikimania to fund them. Some folks from Asia specifically said that there is weaker linguistic, cultural and geographic synergy for an “Asian” conference like there is in Europe and Africa, which is why it has been hard to do one.
- One person noted that one trip to Wikimania served the same role as several international trips to get the same benefit from meeting other Wikimedians/developers, so there are indeed cost efficiencies in having a central conference.


-Andrew Lih
Associate professor of journalism, American University
Email: [hidden email]
WEB: http://www.andrewlih.com
BOOK: The Wikipedia Revolution: http://www.wikipediarevolution.com
PROJECT: Wiki Makes Video http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Wiki_Makes_Video

On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 10:18 AM, Marc-Andre <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 2016-07-08 10:01 AM, Chris Keating wrote:
Interestingly, I couldn't see any sign of the Committee's decision being informed by the WMF's consultation on the future of Wikimania, or anyone from the WMF's community engagement department being present.

Wikimania is, and always was, a community led and organized event. The WMF, as its traditional biggest sponsor[1], has a great deal of influence in the matter - but ultimately no decision power beyond "fund and resource or not".

The committee's decision has indeed taken into account the consultation you refer to - as well as the roundtable discussion on the "Future of Wikimania" that took place earlier[2].  Our evaluation, which is reflected in that resolution, is that the consultation was clearly flawed and that its conclusion does not reflect consensus - neither of the community members who organize nor of those who attend Wikimania.

-- Coren / Marc

[1] Although "underwrite" might be a better term - the WMF has pretty much shouldered the vast majority of the costs and given the most logistical support year in and year out.

[2] Where the consensus was to overwhelmingly reject that consultation's conclusion in favor or continuing with Wikimania as a yearly even given its irreplaceable role in our movement.

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[hidden email]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l


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Re: Wikimania - annually, with South Africa in 2018?

Harry Mitchell
In reply to this post by Pine W
Can we argue about who signed what on Wikimedia-l or some other forum please? We get bogged down in enough silly arguments about Wikimania on this list, never mind silly arguments about governance of participants in silly arguments.

Harry Mitchell
+44 (0) 7507 536 971
Skype: harry_j_mitchell

On Sat, Jul 9, 2016 at 4:33 AM, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:

Thank you. I find it confusing that the letter starts with "The chairpersons of the Wikimedia chapters state that Wikimania needs to be arranged every year," which implies that all of the chapter chairs are united in agreement, but it appears several chapters didn't sign the letter. Looking further at the content of the letter, I would have some questions about some of the statements that were made there. In the future, I would encourage chapter chairs to have discussions about matters such as this on the Affiliates mailing list so that we can have more inclusive discussions among more affiliates before sending letters like that. The Wikimania situation is already convoluted, and I believe that letters such as this should get fuller discussion among affiliates before they are sent to WMF.

Thanks,

Pine

On Jul 8, 2016 20:04, "Christophe Henner" <[hidden email]> wrote:

My bad I forgot it already is on meta https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters/Statements/Chapter_chairs_statement:_Wikimania_needs_to_be_arranged_every_year

Le 9 juil. 2016 4:50 AM, "Pine W" <[hidden email]> a écrit :

Thanks Christophe. I, for one, have had difficulty figuring out what is going on with Wikimania in regards to varying decisions in different parts of WMF and the community, so I look forward to the clarifications.

Personally I am currently neutral on the decision of whether to have annual Wikimanias, or alternate Wikimanias with years in which there is emphasis on national or regional conferences. My hunch is that some research about costs and benefits is needed so that we have reliable data about a variety of scenarios before making a decision.

Thanks again for working on this.

To the board chairs: I would be interested in seeing that letter. In the spirit of transparency, would you please publish it on Meta? As you know I am an advocate for much more transparency from WMF, and I would like for the affiliates to also to be transparent about governance matters such as this one.

Thanks,

Pine

On Jul 8, 2016 19:18, "Christophe Henner" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi everyone,

The same question was raised to the board a few days ago by chairs of Wikimedia organizations asking Foundation's board to make sure there's a comprehensive decision on this very topic. 

The chairs letter wasn't public, I let them share it on meta or here if they want to :)

First step, in my opinion, is to set expectations and define the scope (in the role of the event but also in the ressources (both human and financial) we commit to the event. 

Katherine is working with the staff to provide groundings.

Here is the answer I provided them with. 

----

Hi chairs!

First of all, thank you with the email, the feedback is clearly useful and raises interesting point. 

Now, the Wikimania discussion definitly is on the table. Living by what we said during Wikimania, we, as WMF, will make sure we end up with a clear answer to your questions but also to the different points you raise. 

Wikimania is an important time in our movement, but as you said it also comes with costs and challenges that we have to adress. Katherine is going to meet in the coming days with the staff in charge of that topic to start that discussion within WMF and provide groundings for a comprehensive decision. 

We will try to be as diligent as possible on that topic, but I would ask you to keep in mind that as we're in a transition phase and that might take a little more time than you could expect. 

Again thank you for your email, I love the fact that he raises issues but also includes the challenges we have to take care of :)

We'll get back to you as soon as possible to continue that discussion.

Have all a really great day / night :)

Christophe

While I concur with Coren’s conclusion, I’ll try to neutrally report on the events at Wikimania which led to this result. :)

Full disclosure: I’m a fan of Wikimania being yearly, and was asked to serve on the Wikimania Committee after Esino Lario. I was also the main moderator of the Wikimania 2016 session on the “Future of Wikimania.” These views are my own, and not anything official from the committee.

Background: Many folks (I’d say a majority) who I talked to in Esino Lario early in the conference thought that the decision to do Wikimania every other year was a done deal, as a result of the IdeaLab consultation. I told them that might not necessarily be so. The vote was close, not particularly widely known, and we could still be heard. Chris Schilling from the WMF, who oversaw the Idealab consultation, sought me out specifically at the start of the conference and to my delight, said that the consultation was “just another data point,” and that it was by no means the final word on things. Obviously, this was good news to people who were interested in keeping a yearly Wikimania.

I was scheduled to moderate the “Future of Wikimania” discussion session [1] at the very end of the conference, and encouraged people to let their views be heard. It was under these conditions that we entered into the final discussion room and I asked Chris Schilling to give an opening statement to the room. Most people were happy to hear him say that it was “just another data point.” During the discussion, there was overwhelming support to keep Wikimania going every year, which is not a surprise considering this was *at* Wikimania. I encourage folks to peruse the Etherpad notes, which are quite extensive and expertly done by several folks there.

Some views I’d highlight:
- Having yearly Wikimania is important to keep the momentum of the movement going, according to many
- A case for cancelling yearly Wikimania was to encourage/fund regional meetups. However, there is no guarantee that those regional meetups would actually take place, or that WMF would necessarily take the money saved from Wikimania to fund them. Some folks from Asia specifically said that there is weaker linguistic, cultural and geographic synergy for an “Asian” conference like there is in Europe and Africa, which is why it has been hard to do one.
- One person noted that one trip to Wikimania served the same role as several international trips to get the same benefit from meeting other Wikimedians/developers, so there are indeed cost efficiencies in having a central conference.


-Andrew Lih
Associate professor of journalism, American University
Email: [hidden email]
WEB: http://www.andrewlih.com
BOOK: The Wikipedia Revolution: http://www.wikipediarevolution.com
PROJECT: Wiki Makes Video http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Wiki_Makes_Video

On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 10:18 AM, Marc-Andre <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 2016-07-08 10:01 AM, Chris Keating wrote:
Interestingly, I couldn't see any sign of the Committee's decision being informed by the WMF's consultation on the future of Wikimania, or anyone from the WMF's community engagement department being present.

Wikimania is, and always was, a community led and organized event. The WMF, as its traditional biggest sponsor[1], has a great deal of influence in the matter - but ultimately no decision power beyond "fund and resource or not".

The committee's decision has indeed taken into account the consultation you refer to - as well as the roundtable discussion on the "Future of Wikimania" that took place earlier[2].  Our evaluation, which is reflected in that resolution, is that the consultation was clearly flawed and that its conclusion does not reflect consensus - neither of the community members who organize nor of those who attend Wikimania.

-- Coren / Marc

[1] Although "underwrite" might be a better term - the WMF has pretty much shouldered the vast majority of the costs and given the most logistical support year in and year out.

[2] Where the consensus was to overwhelmingly reject that consultation's conclusion in favor or continuing with Wikimania as a yearly even given its irreplaceable role in our movement.

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https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l


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Re: Wikimania - annually, with South Africa in 2018?

Harry Mitchell
In reply to this post by Florence Devouard-6
I find the idea of holding Wikimania in sub-Saharan Africa quite exciting. It would potentially be a very different sort of event, and it would have the chance to leave a lasting legacy. Speaking of South Africa, though, is it unfair of me to say to that the country has a reputation for lawlessness and violent crime? Is this something the powers that be will take into consideration? 

Harry Mitchell
+44 (0) 7507 536 971
Skype: harry_j_mitchell

On Sat, Jul 9, 2016 at 12:05 AM, Florence Devouard <[hidden email]> wrote:
Oh. Good point !

The term "interest" referred to Wikimedia South Africa, which expressed interest into etc.

During Wikimania, various groups were approached by us (by Ellie). And other groups approached us. To express their interest in holding Wikimania in the future.

For example, on Sunday evening, at Pizzeria 51, a few minutes before the sky decided to fall on our heads, I was told Bangkok was interested for 2020 !

Florence



Le 08/07/16 à 21:50, Lodewijk a écrit :
Thanks for the clarification, Florence. If I may ask another: the
'interest' expressed, does that refer to interest expressed by
South-African Wikimedians, or by the Committee?

Best,
Lodewijk

2016-07-08 21:38 GMT+02:00 Florence Devouard <[hidden email]
<mailto:[hidden email]>>:

    Le 08/07/16 à 16:01, Chris Keating a écrit :

        Hoi,

        I was interested to read the minutes of the most recent Wikimania
        Committee meeting, which decided that Wikimania will be held
        annually
        from now on, and that it will be in sub-Saharan Africa (effectively
        meaning South Africa) in 2018.


    Pointing out that the minutes do not say that it will be in
    sub-Saharan Africa. It says

    "The CfP should identify the priority given for that year to
    Sub-Saharan Africa, noting that there is expressed interest in
    hosting in the Republic of South Africa. "

    The difference is subtle, but there is a difference.
    The committee actually drafted an official announcement, which was
    supposed to be published quickly after the committee minutes.
    But we have been asked to refrain from publishing our announcement
    until after the WMF has been consulted on the matter.

    I am happy to disclose the sentence currently drafted for our (not
    yet published) announcement, which is

    "Considering this, the Committee has a mild preference for
    Sub-Saharan Africa for 2018, but is of course willing to look at
    proposals for hosting Wikimania 2018 in other locations. "


    Florence



        https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_Committee/Minutes/2016-06-26

        Interestingly, I couldn't see any sign of the Committee's
        decision being
        informed by the WMF's consultation on the future of Wikimania,
        or anyone
        from the WMF's community engagement department being present.

        I have to say I'm a bit confused, not least about who actually
        makes the
        decision about how frequently Wikimania happens. Is anyone able
        to shed
        any more light on this?

        Thanks,

        Chris


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