Wikimedia contacts

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Re: Wikimedia contacts

Michael Bimmler
On Nov 12, 2007 7:15 PM, White Cat <[hidden email]> wrote:
> OTRS? Under whose directive do the have greater authority than
> wikimedia contacts? They certainly are not the right address for such
> issues.

Yes.

>
> I already explained this issue cannot be resolved on IRC JamesF is
> busy. Seanw may help but this issue probably exceeded his deputy role
> as a deputy contact.
>

How so?

> My complaint isn't over the specific issue involving me. We have a
> large gap between the foundation and the wikimedia contacts. If users
> have problems with wikimedia contacts or if the wikimedia contacts are
> not available for whatever the reason I should be able to resolve the
> issue somehow. Right now thats the gap and the point of this inquiry.
>
The issue is that the foundation has declined and (to my knowledge)
further declines to become involved with IRC by officialising the
current inofficial 'Wikimedia' group on Freenode. You can like this or
not, but as long as the foundation is not involved with this,
foundation-l is the wrong place to discuss it. Full stop.

Michael

>        - White Cat
>
> On Nov 12, 2007 7:59 PM, Michael Bimmler <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On Nov 12, 2007 6:53 PM, Comet styles <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > Discussions should be done of IRC and not taken to mailing lists but
> > > it that depends on the circumstances surrounding the discussion in
> > > which case talk to channel contacts and if they can't solve it, take
> > > it to OTRS.
> >
> > I agree with everything up to the last point. How and why on earth
> > should OTRS people be asked to deal with such things? At least some of
> > the OTRS people don't even use IRC and I don't why they, as Wikimedia
> > Support Team, should become involved with intra-community issues...
> >
> > Michael
> >
> >
> > >
> > > On Nov 13, 2007 4:32 AM, White Cat <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > Where am I supposed to post it then?
> > > >
> > > >     - White Cat
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Nov 12, 2007 6:25 PM, Pedro Sanchez <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > > On Nov 12, 2007 6:13 AM, Aphaia <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > > > Hello,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Nov 12, 2007 8:52 PM, Dan Collins <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > And finally, why are we discussing this on foundation-l?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks for pointing it out. Possibly to reassure that particular IRC
> > > > > > channel issues are off topic on this mailinglist basically, and this
> > > > > > incident (or those?) are sure falling in this off-topic category, I
> > > > > > suppose ...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So, it is so off-topic that I'd like to avoid giving my opinion about
> > > > > > that here on the list. Perhaps many of others too.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > KIZU Naoko
> > > > > > Wikiquote <http://wikiquote.org> is a free online project for building
> > > > > > collections of quotations, hosted by Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.
> > > > > > Quote of the Day (English): http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/WQ:QOTD
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes this is SO offtopic:
> > > > >
> > > > > http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2007-June/030884.html
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > foundation-l mailing list
> > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > Unsubscribe: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > foundation-l mailing list
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Cometstyles
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > foundation-l mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

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Re: Wikimedia contacts

Dan Rosenthal
Agreeing with Michael, and my apologies for continuing the topic for  
one more post, but since the foundation doesn't get involved with IRC  
issues, please do not email OTRS about it. Regardless of the fact  
that it's the wrong place to address the issue, there's no guarantee  
that the OTRS reps will even have IRC op privileges and could even  
help you if they wanted.

-Dan Rosenthal
On Nov 12, 2007, at 1:29 PM, Michael Bimmler wrote:

> On Nov 12, 2007 7:15 PM, White Cat  
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> OTRS? Under whose directive do the have greater authority than
>> wikimedia contacts? They certainly are not the right address for such
>> issues.
>
> Yes.
>
>>
>> I already explained this issue cannot be resolved on IRC JamesF is
>> busy. Seanw may help but this issue probably exceeded his deputy role
>> as a deputy contact.
>>
>
> How so?
>
>> My complaint isn't over the specific issue involving me. We have a
>> large gap between the foundation and the wikimedia contacts. If users
>> have problems with wikimedia contacts or if the wikimedia contacts  
>> are
>> not available for whatever the reason I should be able to resolve the
>> issue somehow. Right now thats the gap and the point of this inquiry.
>>
> The issue is that the foundation has declined and (to my knowledge)
> further declines to become involved with IRC by officialising the
> current inofficial 'Wikimedia' group on Freenode. You can like this or
> not, but as long as the foundation is not involved with this,
> foundation-l is the wrong place to discuss it. Full stop.
>
> Michael
>
>>        - White Cat
>>
>> On Nov 12, 2007 7:59 PM, Michael Bimmler <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> On Nov 12, 2007 6:53 PM, Comet styles <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> Discussions should be done of IRC and not taken to mailing lists  
>>>> but
>>>> it that depends on the circumstances surrounding the discussion in
>>>> which case talk to channel contacts and if they can't solve it,  
>>>> take
>>>> it to OTRS.
>>>
>>> I agree with everything up to the last point. How and why on earth
>>> should OTRS people be asked to deal with such things? At least  
>>> some of
>>> the OTRS people don't even use IRC and I don't why they, as  
>>> Wikimedia
>>> Support Team, should become involved with intra-community issues...
>>>
>>> Michael
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Nov 13, 2007 4:32 AM, White Cat  
>>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>> Where am I supposed to post it then?
>>>>>
>>>>>     - White Cat
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Nov 12, 2007 6:25 PM, Pedro Sanchez <[hidden email]>  
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> On Nov 12, 2007 6:13 AM, Aphaia <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Nov 12, 2007 8:52 PM, Dan Collins <[hidden email]>  
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And finally, why are we discussing this on foundation-l?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks for pointing it out. Possibly to reassure that  
>>>>>>> particular IRC
>>>>>>> channel issues are off topic on this mailinglist basically,  
>>>>>>> and this
>>>>>>> incident (or those?) are sure falling in this off-topic  
>>>>>>> category, I
>>>>>>> suppose ...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So, it is so off-topic that I'd like to avoid giving my  
>>>>>>> opinion about
>>>>>>> that here on the list. Perhaps many of others too.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> KIZU Naoko
>>>>>>> Wikiquote <http://wikiquote.org> is a free online project for  
>>>>>>> building
>>>>>>> collections of quotations, hosted by Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.
>>>>>>> Quote of the Day (English): http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/WQ:QOTD
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes this is SO offtopic:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2007-June/ 
>>>>>> 030884.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> foundation-l mailing list
>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>> Unsubscribe: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/ 
>>>>>> foundation-l
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> foundation-l mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> Unsubscribe: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/ 
>>>>> foundation-l
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Cometstyles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> foundation-l mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> Unsubscribe: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/ 
>>>> foundation-l
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> foundation-l mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> Unsubscribe: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/ 
>>> foundation-l
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> foundation-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l


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Re: Wikimedia contacts

White Cat
In reply to this post by Michael Bimmler
So you are saying freenode staffers lie? They told me to contact the
foundation should I have problems resolving the issue with the
wikimedia contacts. There needs to be a backup system and I am seeking
the establishment of it.

Do you remember the chaos stemming from the Essjay controversy? He was
(to my knowledge) the IRC contact at the time. I seriously doubt
similar problems will surface with JamesF or seanw but should
something happen where would people go?

The foundation should be prepared for such situations.

        - White Cat

On Nov 12, 2007 8:29 PM, Michael Bimmler <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Nov 12, 2007 7:15 PM, White Cat <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > OTRS? Under whose directive do the have greater authority than
> > wikimedia contacts? They certainly are not the right address for such
> > issues.
>
> Yes.
>
> >
> > I already explained this issue cannot be resolved on IRC JamesF is
> > busy. Seanw may help but this issue probably exceeded his deputy role
> > as a deputy contact.
> >
>
> How so?
>
> > My complaint isn't over the specific issue involving me. We have a
> > large gap between the foundation and the wikimedia contacts. If users
> > have problems with wikimedia contacts or if the wikimedia contacts are
> > not available for whatever the reason I should be able to resolve the
> > issue somehow. Right now thats the gap and the point of this inquiry.
> >
> The issue is that the foundation has declined and (to my knowledge)
> further declines to become involved with IRC by officialising the
> current inofficial 'Wikimedia' group on Freenode. You can like this or
> not, but as long as the foundation is not involved with this,
> foundation-l is the wrong place to discuss it. Full stop.
>
> Michael
>
>
> >        - White Cat
> >
> > On Nov 12, 2007 7:59 PM, Michael Bimmler <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > On Nov 12, 2007 6:53 PM, Comet styles <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > Discussions should be done of IRC and not taken to mailing lists but
> > > > it that depends on the circumstances surrounding the discussion in
> > > > which case talk to channel contacts and if they can't solve it, take
> > > > it to OTRS.
> > >
> > > I agree with everything up to the last point. How and why on earth
> > > should OTRS people be asked to deal with such things? At least some of
> > > the OTRS people don't even use IRC and I don't why they, as Wikimedia
> > > Support Team, should become involved with intra-community issues...
> > >
> > > Michael
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > On Nov 13, 2007 4:32 AM, White Cat <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > > Where am I supposed to post it then?
> > > > >
> > > > >     - White Cat
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Nov 12, 2007 6:25 PM, Pedro Sanchez <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > > > On Nov 12, 2007 6:13 AM, Aphaia <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > > > > Hello,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Nov 12, 2007 8:52 PM, Dan Collins <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > And finally, why are we discussing this on foundation-l?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks for pointing it out. Possibly to reassure that particular IRC
> > > > > > > channel issues are off topic on this mailinglist basically, and this
> > > > > > > incident (or those?) are sure falling in this off-topic category, I
> > > > > > > suppose ...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So, it is so off-topic that I'd like to avoid giving my opinion about
> > > > > > > that here on the list. Perhaps many of others too.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > KIZU Naoko
> > > > > > > Wikiquote <http://wikiquote.org> is a free online project for building
> > > > > > > collections of quotations, hosted by Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.
> > > > > > > Quote of the Day (English): http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/WQ:QOTD
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yes this is SO offtopic:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2007-June/030884.html
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > foundation-l mailing list
> > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > Unsubscribe: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > foundation-l mailing list
> > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > Unsubscribe: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Cometstyles
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > foundation-l mailing list
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> > > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > foundation-l mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

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Re: Wikimedia contacts

Dan Rosenthal
Why should they? The IRC channels are unofficial. Just because the  
foundation chooses to utilize them, does not make them official.

-Dan Rosenthal
On Nov 12, 2007, at 2:25 PM, White Cat wrote:

> So you are saying freenode staffers lie? They told me to contact the
> foundation should I have problems resolving the issue with the
> wikimedia contacts. There needs to be a backup system and I am seeking
> the establishment of it.
>
> Do you remember the chaos stemming from the Essjay controversy? He was
> (to my knowledge) the IRC contact at the time. I seriously doubt
> similar problems will surface with JamesF or seanw but should
> something happen where would people go?
>
> The foundation should be prepared for such situations.
>
>         - White Cat
>
> On Nov 12, 2007 8:29 PM, Michael Bimmler <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On Nov 12, 2007 7:15 PM, White Cat  
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> OTRS? Under whose directive do the have greater authority than
>>> wikimedia contacts? They certainly are not the right address for  
>>> such
>>> issues.
>>
>> Yes.
>>
>>>
>>> I already explained this issue cannot be resolved on IRC JamesF is
>>> busy. Seanw may help but this issue probably exceeded his deputy  
>>> role
>>> as a deputy contact.
>>>
>>
>> How so?
>>
>>> My complaint isn't over the specific issue involving me. We have a
>>> large gap between the foundation and the wikimedia contacts. If  
>>> users
>>> have problems with wikimedia contacts or if the wikimedia  
>>> contacts are
>>> not available for whatever the reason I should be able to resolve  
>>> the
>>> issue somehow. Right now thats the gap and the point of this  
>>> inquiry.
>>>
>> The issue is that the foundation has declined and (to my knowledge)
>> further declines to become involved with IRC by officialising the
>> current inofficial 'Wikimedia' group on Freenode. You can like  
>> this or
>> not, but as long as the foundation is not involved with this,
>> foundation-l is the wrong place to discuss it. Full stop.
>>
>> Michael
>>
>>
>>>        - White Cat
>>>
>>> On Nov 12, 2007 7:59 PM, Michael Bimmler <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> On Nov 12, 2007 6:53 PM, Comet styles <[hidden email]>  
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Discussions should be done of IRC and not taken to mailing  
>>>>> lists but
>>>>> it that depends on the circumstances surrounding the discussion in
>>>>> which case talk to channel contacts and if they can't solve it,  
>>>>> take
>>>>> it to OTRS.
>>>>
>>>> I agree with everything up to the last point. How and why on earth
>>>> should OTRS people be asked to deal with such things? At least  
>>>> some of
>>>> the OTRS people don't even use IRC and I don't why they, as  
>>>> Wikimedia
>>>> Support Team, should become involved with intra-community issues...
>>>>
>>>> Michael
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Nov 13, 2007 4:32 AM, White Cat  
>>>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>> Where am I supposed to post it then?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     - White Cat
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Nov 12, 2007 6:25 PM, Pedro Sanchez <[hidden email]>  
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Nov 12, 2007 6:13 AM, Aphaia <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Nov 12, 2007 8:52 PM, Dan Collins <[hidden email]>  
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And finally, why are we discussing this on foundation-l?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks for pointing it out. Possibly to reassure that  
>>>>>>>> particular IRC
>>>>>>>> channel issues are off topic on this mailinglist basically,  
>>>>>>>> and this
>>>>>>>> incident (or those?) are sure falling in this off-topic  
>>>>>>>> category, I
>>>>>>>> suppose ...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So, it is so off-topic that I'd like to avoid giving my  
>>>>>>>> opinion about
>>>>>>>> that here on the list. Perhaps many of others too.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> KIZU Naoko
>>>>>>>> Wikiquote <http://wikiquote.org> is a free online project  
>>>>>>>> for building
>>>>>>>> collections of quotations, hosted by Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.
>>>>>>>> Quote of the Day (English): http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/ 
>>>>>>>> WQ:QOTD
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes this is SO offtopic:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2007-June/ 
>>>>>>> 030884.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> foundation-l mailing list
>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>> Unsubscribe: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/ 
>>>>>>> foundation-l
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> foundation-l mailing list
>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>> Unsubscribe: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/ 
>>>>>> foundation-l
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Cometstyles
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> foundation-l mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> Unsubscribe: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/ 
>>>>> foundation-l
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> foundation-l mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> Unsubscribe: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/ 
>>>> foundation-l
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> foundation-l mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> Unsubscribe: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/ 
>>> foundation-l
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> foundation-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l


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Re: Wikimedia contacts

Philippe Beaudette
In reply to this post by White Cat
That has got to be the king of all straw man arguments.

Philippe

--------------------------------------------------
From: "White Cat" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 1:25 PM
To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List" <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia contacts

> So you are saying freenode staffers lie? They told me to contact the
> foundation should I have problems resolving the issue with the
> wikimedia contacts. There needs to be a backup system and I am seeking
> the establishment of it.
>
> Do you remember the chaos stemming from the Essjay controversy? He was
> (to my knowledge) the IRC contact at the time. I seriously doubt
> similar problems will surface with JamesF or seanw but should
> something happen where would people go?
>
> The foundation should be prepared for such situations.
>
>        - White Cat
>
> On Nov 12, 2007 8:29 PM, Michael Bimmler <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On Nov 12, 2007 7:15 PM, White Cat <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>> > OTRS? Under whose directive do the have greater authority than
>> > wikimedia contacts? They certainly are not the right address for such
>> > issues.
>>
>> Yes.
>>
>> >
>> > I already explained this issue cannot be resolved on IRC JamesF is
>> > busy. Seanw may help but this issue probably exceeded his deputy role
>> > as a deputy contact.
>> >
>>
>> How so?
>>
>> > My complaint isn't over the specific issue involving me. We have a
>> > large gap between the foundation and the wikimedia contacts. If users
>> > have problems with wikimedia contacts or if the wikimedia contacts are
>> > not available for whatever the reason I should be able to resolve the
>> > issue somehow. Right now thats the gap and the point of this inquiry.
>> >
>> The issue is that the foundation has declined and (to my knowledge)
>> further declines to become involved with IRC by officialising the
>> current inofficial 'Wikimedia' group on Freenode. You can like this or
>> not, but as long as the foundation is not involved with this,
>> foundation-l is the wrong place to discuss it. Full stop.
>>
>> Michael
>>
>>
>> >        - White Cat
>> >
>> > On Nov 12, 2007 7:59 PM, Michael Bimmler <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > > On Nov 12, 2007 6:53 PM, Comet styles <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > > > Discussions should be done of IRC and not taken to mailing lists
>> > > > but
>> > > > it that depends on the circumstances surrounding the discussion in
>> > > > which case talk to channel contacts and if they can't solve it,
>> > > > take
>> > > > it to OTRS.
>> > >
>> > > I agree with everything up to the last point. How and why on earth
>> > > should OTRS people be asked to deal with such things? At least some
>> > > of
>> > > the OTRS people don't even use IRC and I don't why they, as Wikimedia
>> > > Support Team, should become involved with intra-community issues...
>> > >
>> > > Michael
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > >
>> > > > On Nov 13, 2007 4:32 AM, White Cat
>> > > > <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > > > > Where am I supposed to post it then?
>> > > > >
>> > > > >     - White Cat
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > On Nov 12, 2007 6:25 PM, Pedro Sanchez <[hidden email]>
>> > > > > wrote:
>> > > > > > On Nov 12, 2007 6:13 AM, Aphaia <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > > > > > > Hello,
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > On Nov 12, 2007 8:52 PM, Dan Collins <[hidden email]>
>> > > > > > > wrote:
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > And finally, why are we discussing this on foundation-l?
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Thanks for pointing it out. Possibly to reassure that
>> > > > > > > particular IRC
>> > > > > > > channel issues are off topic on this mailinglist basically,
>> > > > > > > and this
>> > > > > > > incident (or those?) are sure falling in this off-topic
>> > > > > > > category, I
>> > > > > > > suppose ...
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > So, it is so off-topic that I'd like to avoid giving my
>> > > > > > > opinion about
>> > > > > > > that here on the list. Perhaps many of others too.
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Cheers,
>> > > > > > > --
>> > > > > > > KIZU Naoko
>> > > > > > > Wikiquote <http://wikiquote.org> is a free online project for
>> > > > > > > building
>> > > > > > > collections of quotations, hosted by Wikimedia Foundation,
>> > > > > > > Inc.
>> > > > > > > Quote of the Day (English):
>> > > > > > > http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/WQ:QOTD
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Yes this is SO offtopic:
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2007-June/030884.html
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > _______________________________________________
>> > > > > > foundation-l mailing list
>> > > > > > [hidden email]
>> > > > > > Unsubscribe:
>> > > > > > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>> > > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > _______________________________________________
>> > > > > foundation-l mailing list
>> > > > > [hidden email]
>> > > > > Unsubscribe:
>> > > > > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > --
>> > > > Cometstyles
>> > > >
>> > > > _______________________________________________
>> > > > foundation-l mailing list
>> > > > [hidden email]
>> > > > Unsubscribe:
>> > > > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > foundation-l mailing list
>> > > [hidden email]
>> > > Unsubscribe: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>> > >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > foundation-l mailing list
>> > [hidden email]
>> > Unsubscribe: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>> >
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> foundation-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l 


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Re: Wikimedia contacts

Michael Bimmler
Note to White Cat:
This is now a 25-posts-thread and in this whole thread, there was not
a single person who agreed with your feeling that this needs to be
discussed on foundation-l.
Thus, I advise you to discontinue discussion of this topic on
foundation-l and find a more appropriate forum for it. I will allow
myself to put you on moderation, should you continue this discussion
in ignorance of this note. (By the way: Don't try the censorship
argument, you'll lose with it)

Michael

On Nov 12, 2007 10:18 PM, Philippe Beaudette
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> That has got to be the king of all straw man arguments.
>
> Philippe
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "White Cat" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 1:25 PM
> To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List" <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia contacts
>
> > So you are saying freenode staffers lie? They told me to contact the
> > foundation should I have problems resolving the issue with the
> > wikimedia contacts. There needs to be a backup system and I am seeking
> > the establishment of it.
> >
> > Do you remember the chaos stemming from the Essjay controversy? He was
> > (to my knowledge) the IRC contact at the time. I seriously doubt
> > similar problems will surface with JamesF or seanw but should
> > something happen where would people go?
> >
> > The foundation should be prepared for such situations.
> >
> >        - White Cat
> >
> > On Nov 12, 2007 8:29 PM, Michael Bimmler <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> On Nov 12, 2007 7:15 PM, White Cat <[hidden email]>
> >> wrote:
> >> > OTRS? Under whose directive do the have greater authority than
> >> > wikimedia contacts? They certainly are not the right address for such
> >> > issues.
> >>
> >> Yes.
> >>
> >> >
> >> > I already explained this issue cannot be resolved on IRC JamesF is
> >> > busy. Seanw may help but this issue probably exceeded his deputy role
> >> > as a deputy contact.
> >> >
> >>
> >> How so?
> >>
> >> > My complaint isn't over the specific issue involving me. We have a
> >> > large gap between the foundation and the wikimedia contacts. If users
> >> > have problems with wikimedia contacts or if the wikimedia contacts are
> >> > not available for whatever the reason I should be able to resolve the
> >> > issue somehow. Right now thats the gap and the point of this inquiry.
> >> >
> >> The issue is that the foundation has declined and (to my knowledge)
> >> further declines to become involved with IRC by officialising the
> >> current inofficial 'Wikimedia' group on Freenode. You can like this or
> >> not, but as long as the foundation is not involved with this,
> >> foundation-l is the wrong place to discuss it. Full stop.
> >>
> >> Michael
> >>
> >>
> >> >        - White Cat
> >> >
> >> > On Nov 12, 2007 7:59 PM, Michael Bimmler <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> > > On Nov 12, 2007 6:53 PM, Comet styles <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> > > > Discussions should be done of IRC and not taken to mailing lists
> >> > > > but
> >> > > > it that depends on the circumstances surrounding the discussion in
> >> > > > which case talk to channel contacts and if they can't solve it,
> >> > > > take
> >> > > > it to OTRS.
> >> > >
> >> > > I agree with everything up to the last point. How and why on earth
> >> > > should OTRS people be asked to deal with such things? At least some
> >> > > of
> >> > > the OTRS people don't even use IRC and I don't why they, as Wikimedia
> >> > > Support Team, should become involved with intra-community issues...
> >> > >
> >> > > Michael
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > On Nov 13, 2007 4:32 AM, White Cat
> >> > > > <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> > > > > Where am I supposed to post it then?
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >     - White Cat
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > On Nov 12, 2007 6:25 PM, Pedro Sanchez <[hidden email]>
> >> > > > > wrote:
> >> > > > > > On Nov 12, 2007 6:13 AM, Aphaia <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> > > > > > > Hello,
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > On Nov 12, 2007 8:52 PM, Dan Collins <[hidden email]>
> >> > > > > > > wrote:
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > And finally, why are we discussing this on foundation-l?
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > Thanks for pointing it out. Possibly to reassure that
> >> > > > > > > particular IRC
> >> > > > > > > channel issues are off topic on this mailinglist basically,
> >> > > > > > > and this
> >> > > > > > > incident (or those?) are sure falling in this off-topic
> >> > > > > > > category, I
> >> > > > > > > suppose ...
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > So, it is so off-topic that I'd like to avoid giving my
> >> > > > > > > opinion about
> >> > > > > > > that here on the list. Perhaps many of others too.
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > Cheers,
> >> > > > > > > --
> >> > > > > > > KIZU Naoko
> >> > > > > > > Wikiquote <http://wikiquote.org> is a free online project for
> >> > > > > > > building
> >> > > > > > > collections of quotations, hosted by Wikimedia Foundation,
> >> > > > > > > Inc.
> >> > > > > > > Quote of the Day (English):
> >> > > > > > > http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/WQ:QOTD
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > Yes this is SO offtopic:
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2007-June/030884.html
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> >> > > > > > foundation-l mailing list
> >> > > > > > [hidden email]
> >> > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> >> > > > > > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > _______________________________________________
> >> > > > > foundation-l mailing list
> >> > > > > [hidden email]
> >> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> >> > > > > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >> > > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > --
> >> > > > Cometstyles
> >> > > >
> >> > > > _______________________________________________
> >> > > > foundation-l mailing list
> >> > > > [hidden email]
> >> > > > Unsubscribe:
> >> > > > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> > > _______________________________________________
> >> > > foundation-l mailing list
> >> > > [hidden email]
> >> > > Unsubscribe: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > foundation-l mailing list
> >> > [hidden email]
> >> > Unsubscribe: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >> >
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> foundation-l mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> Unsubscribe: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

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Re: Wikimedia contacts

Sean Whitton (Xyrael)
In reply to this post by White Cat
Clearly this needs to be escalated to Group Contact level. White Cat,
please e-mail me off-list and we can work it out over e-mail - it is
well within my role as deputy contact. However, foundation-l is not
the right place for it and I would hope this be the last post to the
thread.

Sean

On 11/12/07, White Cat <[hidden email]> wrote:

> So you are saying freenode staffers lie? They told me to contact the
> foundation should I have problems resolving the issue with the
> wikimedia contacts. There needs to be a backup system and I am seeking
> the establishment of it.
>
> Do you remember the chaos stemming from the Essjay controversy? He was
> (to my knowledge) the IRC contact at the time. I seriously doubt
> similar problems will surface with JamesF or seanw but should
> something happen where would people go?
>
> The foundation should be prepared for such situations.
>
>         - White Cat
>
> On Nov 12, 2007 8:29 PM, Michael Bimmler <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On Nov 12, 2007 7:15 PM, White Cat <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > OTRS? Under whose directive do the have greater authority than
> > > wikimedia contacts? They certainly are not the right address for such
> > > issues.
> >
> > Yes.
> >
> > >
> > > I already explained this issue cannot be resolved on IRC JamesF is
> > > busy. Seanw may help but this issue probably exceeded his deputy role
> > > as a deputy contact.
> > >
> >
> > How so?
> >
> > > My complaint isn't over the specific issue involving me. We have a
> > > large gap between the foundation and the wikimedia contacts. If users
> > > have problems with wikimedia contacts or if the wikimedia contacts are
> > > not available for whatever the reason I should be able to resolve the
> > > issue somehow. Right now thats the gap and the point of this inquiry.
> > >
> > The issue is that the foundation has declined and (to my knowledge)
> > further declines to become involved with IRC by officialising the
> > current inofficial 'Wikimedia' group on Freenode. You can like this or
> > not, but as long as the foundation is not involved with this,
> > foundation-l is the wrong place to discuss it. Full stop.
> >
> > Michael
> >
> >
> > >        - White Cat
> > >
> > > On Nov 12, 2007 7:59 PM, Michael Bimmler <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > On Nov 12, 2007 6:53 PM, Comet styles <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > > Discussions should be done of IRC and not taken to mailing lists but
> > > > > it that depends on the circumstances surrounding the discussion in
> > > > > which case talk to channel contacts and if they can't solve it, take
> > > > > it to OTRS.
> > > >
> > > > I agree with everything up to the last point. How and why on earth
> > > > should OTRS people be asked to deal with such things? At least some of
> > > > the OTRS people don't even use IRC and I don't why they, as Wikimedia
> > > > Support Team, should become involved with intra-community issues...
> > > >
> > > > Michael
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Nov 13, 2007 4:32 AM, White Cat <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > > > Where am I supposed to post it then?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >     - White Cat
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Nov 12, 2007 6:25 PM, Pedro Sanchez <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > > > > On Nov 12, 2007 6:13 AM, Aphaia <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > > > > > Hello,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Nov 12, 2007 8:52 PM, Dan Collins <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > And finally, why are we discussing this on foundation-l?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thanks for pointing it out. Possibly to reassure that particular IRC
> > > > > > > > channel issues are off topic on this mailinglist basically, and this
> > > > > > > > incident (or those?) are sure falling in this off-topic category, I
> > > > > > > > suppose ...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > So, it is so off-topic that I'd like to avoid giving my opinion about
> > > > > > > > that here on the list. Perhaps many of others too.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > KIZU Naoko
> > > > > > > > Wikiquote <http://wikiquote.org> is a free online project for building
> > > > > > > > collections of quotations, hosted by Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.
> > > > > > > > Quote of the Day (English): http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/WQ:QOTD
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Yes this is SO offtopic:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2007-June/030884.html
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > foundation-l mailing list
> > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > Unsubscribe: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > foundation-l mailing list
> > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > Unsubscribe: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Cometstyles
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > foundation-l mailing list
> > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > Unsubscribe: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > foundation-l mailing list
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> > > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > foundation-l mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

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Re: Wikimedia contacts

Effe iets anders
In reply to this post by Dan Collins-2
OK, lesson of today: don't ask homework on irc, but make it yourself!

2007/11/12, Dan Collins <[hidden email]>:

> On Nov 12, 2007 5:54 AM, White Cat <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > NotACow/kayrnn/Kelly is the person issuing the ban on #wikipedia and
> > #wikimedia-ops. All of those layers are hence useless as she so far
> > refused to communicate using a non-irc method such as my wikipedia
> > talk page or email. I do not want to talk to NotACow/kayrnn/Kelly
> > directly on IRC as I ignored her permanently so as not to rise the
> > temperature unnecessarily as we end up annoying each other
> > unintentionally.
> >
> >  I can't publicly post the log here but can email it to you (in fact
> > I'll forwarded it after sending this).
> >
> >     - White Cat
> >
> > On Nov 12, 2007 12:37 PM, Sean Whitton <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > On 11/12/07, Angela <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > [snip]
> > > > The contacts are listed on meta, but they're not there to resolve
> > > > personal disputes you have with people on IRC. As the page says "the
> > > > contacts have a policy of staying out of channel affairs..."
> > > >
> > > > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IRC_Group_Contacts
> > >
> > > For the record, I am the person to go to at the moment rather than
> > > James as he has delegated 99% of the work to me due to other
> > > commitments. You are right though that we try to stay out of this at
> > > all costs. The correct order for escalation of issues is the
> > > following, but really anything past the first few layers is a last
> > > resort:
> > >
> > > For #wikipedia:
> > > Op who banned
> > > #wikimedia-ops (where I hope bans are used extremely sparingly)
> > > Deputy Channel Contact, NotACow/kayrnn/Kelly
> > > Channel Contact: Mark_Ryan
> > > IRC Group Contacts
> > >
> > > Sean
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > foundation-l mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
>
> Let me just chime in with last night - White_Cat: appearantly Drini, an op,
> asked you why you were in #wikipedia-es - Drini wanted to be sure you
> weren't leaking logs, and you ignored him. When he banned you, you came to
> -ops and asked for help. JohnReaves and myself were on at the time, and we
> didn't ignore you, we simply didn't have any power in -es. When Drini
> arrived, you refused to unignore him, and there wasn't anything we could do
> to help you.
>
> As for the #wikipedia incident, White_Cat was asking for homework
> assistance, NotACow posted the solution, but White_Cat was ignoring NotACow.
> White_Cat was asking for someone with logs, and didn't see NotACow's
> warnings. (NotACow is the deputy channel contact, by the way.)
>
> White_Cat: You want to be unbanned, of course. To do that, you went to -ops
> last night - no problem with that. But you can not ignore the only people
> who can help you. Your escalation from -ops to email was not necessary, as
> there was a user there fully able to help you, had you unignored him and
> answered his questions.
>
> And finally, why are we discussing this on foundation-l?
>
> --
> ST47
> Administrator, en.wikipedia
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
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>

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Re: Wikimedia contacts

James Forrester-2
In reply to this post by White Cat
On 12/11/2007, White Cat <[hidden email]> wrote:
> OTRS? Under whose directive do the have greater authority than
> wikimedia contacts? They certainly are not the right address for such
> issues.

I'm on OTRS. If people email info@, and the tickets are assigned to
me, I can action them. However, it would be slightly more useful for
people to e-mail me (as they already do), or PM me on IRC.

> I already explained this issue cannot be resolved on IRC JamesF is
> busy.

I'm not *that* busy - I'm on IRC almost every evening (GMT) in many of
the main channels. :-)

> Seanw may help but this issue probably exceeded his deputy role
> as a deputy contact.

Sean enjoys my complete confidence and has absolute discretion in
exercising all "my" authority, which is delegated to him in its
entirety.

However, this is not the venue for discussion of incidents on IRC,
though I imagine that people may wish to discuss the concept of IRC as
a semi-separate part of the community structure.

Yours,
--
James D. Forrester
[hidden email] | [hidden email]
[[Wikipedia:User:Jdforrester|James F.]]

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