[Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

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[Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

Lila Tretikov
Hi all,

This is a personal note to clarify a some questions that recently came up,
specifically in the context of my role as the incoming ED.


My partner Wil and I are partners in our private lives. We have always both
been extremely independent, and we respect that in each other. That said we
have different roles: I am the Executive Director with responsibilities
towards the Foundation and the movement, and he is an independent community
member with his own voice.

I make my decisions using my own professional judgement in conjunction with
input from the community and staff. I don’t consult Wil on these matters,
ask him to do anything on my behalf or monitor his engagements with the
community. When I speak here, it is in my capacity as an ED.

Wil, on the other hand, has a very strong personal interest in the
community and agreat deal of curiosity about how the Wikimedia
projectswork. It is very important to him that he remains an
independent individual
able to speak with his own voice and ask his own questions. He does not
take direction from me. He will not work for the WMF or engage with the WMF
employees.

I hope this addresses some of the questions and draws distinction between
my role as ED and Wil’s participation as an independent member. If you have
any questions for Wil you can reach him directly. If you have any questions
for me or the WMF, you can get a hold of me by email or on my talk page.


Thanks,

Lila
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

Fæ
On 28/05/2014, Lila Tretikov <[hidden email]> wrote:
...
> independent individual
> able to speak with his own voice and ask his own questions. He does not
> take direction from me. He will not work for the WMF or engage with the WMF
> employees.

Thanks for making these distinctions. It is sad to see that your time
and energy is being used so early on in your introduction to the
Wikimedia community, in creating a political distance between yourself
and the public actions of your life partner, due to his casual
curiosity about Wikimedia projects. A curiosity that only manifested
itself shortly after the public announcement of your employment by the
Foundation board.

I do not really understand the point being made about not "engaging"
with WMF employees, any active volunteer on Wikimedia projects should
and must be free to engage with WMF employees. The statement does not
appear to match actions over the last 24 hours, with Wil freely making
public comments about his dissatisfaction after conversations
(emails?) with some WMF employees.

Thanks again for clarifying your position during this difficult start
to your engagement.

Fae
--
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

Marc-Andre
On 05/28/2014 08:59 AM, Fæ wrote:
> A curiosity that only manifested
> itself shortly after the public announcement of your employment by the
> Foundation board.

In all fairness, Fæ, if my spouse had been hired as the leader of a very
visible and significant business or nonprofit, I too would find myself
interested in what it is, what its values are, and how it goes about
things even if I had been previously unaware or uninterested in it.

So that Wil's interest manifested around the time Lila was announced as
the next ED seems to me to be perfectly natural, even if I have
expressed serious concerns about *how* that interest was expressed.

-- Marc


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

Everton Zanella Alvarenga-4
Just a personal testimonial also to emphasize Marc's point and not
necessarily when I did a work for WMF as a contractor, my previous
girlfriend got interesting in Wikimedia projects after she saw somethings I
worked on my spare time as a volunteer. She even began to write at
Wikimedia Brasil mailing list and outreach Wikimedia projects. ;)

In fact, she still does sometimes some outreach and have even participate
of a Wikimedia meeting recently. (Well, better not say her opinion on
Wikidramas, totally aligned with mine : )

Tom


2014-05-28 11:04 GMT-03:00 Marc A. Pelletier <[hidden email]>:

> On 05/28/2014 08:59 AM, Fæ wrote:
> > A curiosity that only manifested
> > itself shortly after the public announcement of your employment by the
> > Foundation board.
>
> In all fairness, Fæ, if my spouse had been hired as the leader of a very
> visible and significant business or nonprofit, I too would find myself
> interested in what it is, what its values are, and how it goes about
> things even if I had been previously unaware or uninterested in it.
>
> So that Wil's interest manifested around the time Lila was announced as
> the next ED seems to me to be perfectly natural, even if I have
> expressed serious concerns about *how* that interest was expressed.
>
> -- Marc
>
> --
> Everton Zanella Alvarenga (also Tom)
> Open Knowledge Brasil - Rede pelo Conhecimento Livre
> http://br.okfn.org
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

Jon Davies
My wife, thanks to Viisual Editor, now creates pages!


On 28 May 2014 16:21, Everton Zanella Alvarenga
<[hidden email]>wrote:

> Just a personal testimonial also to emphasize Marc's point and not
> necessarily when I did a work for WMF as a contractor, my previous
> girlfriend got interesting in Wikimedia projects after she saw somethings I
> worked on my spare time as a volunteer. She even began to write at
> Wikimedia Brasil mailing list and outreach Wikimedia projects. ;)
>
> In fact, she still does sometimes some outreach and have even participate
> of a Wikimedia meeting recently. (Well, better not say her opinion on
> Wikidramas, totally aligned with mine : )
>
> Tom
>
>
> 2014-05-28 11:04 GMT-03:00 Marc A. Pelletier <[hidden email]>:
>
> > On 05/28/2014 08:59 AM, Fæ wrote:
> > > A curiosity that only manifested
> > > itself shortly after the public announcement of your employment by the
> > > Foundation board.
> >
> > In all fairness, Fæ, if my spouse had been hired as the leader of a very
> > visible and significant business or nonprofit, I too would find myself
> > interested in what it is, what its values are, and how it goes about
> > things even if I had been previously unaware or uninterested in it.
> >
> > So that Wil's interest manifested around the time Lila was announced as
> > the next ED seems to me to be perfectly natural, even if I have
> > expressed serious concerns about *how* that interest was expressed.
> >
> > -- Marc
> >
> > --
> > Everton Zanella Alvarenga (also Tom)
> > Open Knowledge Brasil - Rede pelo Conhecimento Livre
> > http://br.okfn.org
> >
> _______________________________________________
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> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>



--
*Jon Davies - Chief Executive Wikimedia UK*.  Mobile (0044) 7803 505 169
tweet @jonatreesdavies

Wikimedia UK is a Company Limited by Guarantee registered in England and
Wales, Registered No. 6741827. Registered Charity No.1144513. Registered
Office 4th Floor, Development House, 56-64 Leonard Street, London EC2A 4LT.
United Kingdom. Wikimedia UK is the UK chapter of a global Wikimedia
movement. The Wikimedia projects are run by the Wikimedia Foundation (who
operate Wikipedia, amongst other projects).
Telephone (0044) 207 065 0990.

Visit http://www.wikimedia.org.uk/ and @wikimediauk
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

Fæ
In reply to this post by Marc-Andre
On 28 May 2014 15:04, Marc A. Pelletier <[hidden email]> wrote:
...
> So that Wil's interest manifested around the time Lila was announced as
> the next ED seems to me to be perfectly natural, even if I have
> expressed serious concerns about *how* that interest was expressed.
> -- Marc

There is a big difference between your partner having an interest in
your organization, and going on to publish public complaints about the
staff that you have complete authority and responsibility for
employing.

I may be wrong, perhaps someone has some examples of where this worked
out well? The only examples from history and the political world I can
recall, did not.

Fae
--
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

Victor Grigas
My significant other applied for a grant and got 500 Wikireaders
distributed to 3 schools:

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:Aislinn_Dewey/Distribute_WikiReaders_to_Schools/Report

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/help-distribute-wikireaders-and-provide-an-opportunity-for-kids-to-learn


On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 28 May 2014 15:04, Marc A. Pelletier <[hidden email]> wrote:
> ...
> > So that Wil's interest manifested around the time Lila was announced as
> > the next ED seems to me to be perfectly natural, even if I have
> > expressed serious concerns about *how* that interest was expressed.
> > -- Marc
>
> There is a big difference between your partner having an interest in
> your organization, and going on to publish public complaints about the
> staff that you have complete authority and responsibility for
> employing.
>
> I may be wrong, perhaps someone has some examples of where this worked
> out well? The only examples from history and the political world I can
> recall, did not.
>
> Fae
> --
> [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>
> _______________________________________________
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> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
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>



--

*Victor Grigas*
Storyteller <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Knv6D6Thi0>
Wikimedia Foundation
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

Fæ
Hi Victor,

That's great. I can't see any complaints about WMF employees in the
links you provided.

I am sure that we could find 100 examples of the partners of
Wikimedians doing something on Wikimedia projects, it would be a great
topic for "reasons why I love Wikimedia"... That is not the issue
here, in fact I encouraged Wil to get experience contributing to the
projects *before* using highly public platforms to complain about
Wikimedia and Lila's new employees.

Thanks,
Fae

On 28 May 2014 16:49, Victor Grigas <[hidden email]> wrote:

> My significant other applied for a grant and got 500 Wikireaders
> distributed to 3 schools:
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:Aislinn_Dewey/Distribute_WikiReaders_to_Schools/Report
>
> https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/help-distribute-wikireaders-and-provide-an-opportunity-for-kids-to-learn
>
>
> On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On 28 May 2014 15:04, Marc A. Pelletier <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> ...
>> > So that Wil's interest manifested around the time Lila was announced as
>> > the next ED seems to me to be perfectly natural, even if I have
>> > expressed serious concerns about *how* that interest was expressed.
>> > -- Marc
>>
>> There is a big difference between your partner having an interest in
>> your organization, and going on to publish public complaints about the
>> staff that you have complete authority and responsibility for
>> employing.
>>
>> I may be wrong, perhaps someone has some examples of where this worked
>> out well? The only examples from history and the political world I can
>> recall, did not.
>>
>> Fae
>> --
>> [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>> [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
> *Victor Grigas*
> Storyteller <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Knv6D6Thi0>
> Wikimedia Foundation
> [hidden email]
> https://donate.wikimedia.org/
> _______________________________________________
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Personal and confidential, please do not circulate or re-quote.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

Michael Snow-5
In reply to this post by Fæ
On 5/28/2014 5:59 AM, Fæ wrote:

> On 28/05/2014, Lila Tretikov <[hidden email]> wrote:
> ...
>> independent individual
>> able to speak with his own voice and ask his own questions. He does not
>> take direction from me. He will not work for the WMF or engage with the WMF
>> employees.
> I do not really understand the point being made about not "engaging"
> with WMF employees, any active volunteer on Wikimedia projects should
> and must be free to engage with WMF employees. The statement does not
> appear to match actions over the last 24 hours, with Wil freely making
> public comments about his dissatisfaction after conversations
> (emails?) with some WMF employees.
I believe the point is that Wil, in particular, will not interfere with
Wikimedia staff in carrying out their duties, assign them specific
tasks, or otherwise attempt to supervise and direct their work. These
functions properly belong to the employee's supervisor, so it's good for
community members to keep this in mind generally, but especially
important for Wil because otherwise his connection to Lila might create
concern or confusion for the staff (as in the recent GitHub situation,
which I believe was already mentioned). If those guidelines are
respected, there should be no problem about Wil interacting with staff
in an ordinary fashion. I'm sure Wil understands this and will be
careful about it, and it's also good that Lila has said this publicly so
that people have something to point to, in case anything is uncertain
about whether Wil has some sort of special authority.

--Michael Snow

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

Fæ
On 28 May 2014 16:55, Michael Snow <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 5/28/2014 5:59 AM, Fæ wrote:
...
>> I do not really understand the point being made about not "engaging"
...

> I believe the point is that Wil, in particular, will not interfere with
> Wikimedia staff in carrying out their duties, assign them specific tasks, or
> otherwise attempt to supervise and direct their work. These functions
> properly belong to the employee's supervisor, so it's good for community
> members to keep this in mind generally, but especially important for Wil
> because otherwise his connection to Lila might create concern or confusion
> for the staff (as in the recent GitHub situation, which I believe was
> already mentioned). If those guidelines are respected, there should be no
> problem about Wil interacting with staff in an ordinary fashion. I'm sure
> Wil understands this and will be careful about it, and it's also good that
> Lila has said this publicly so that people have something to point to, in
> case anything is uncertain about whether Wil has some sort of special
> authority.

Thanks, that is a nice interpretation, it would be useful to have a
confirmation that this was the intention of Lila's email.

It will be interesting to see whether in practice Wil has special
authority, or not. It is quite hard to judge right now, having made so
few contributions to Wikimedia projects, and as in the majority of
discussions in various places (including Wil's English Wikipedia user
page) his preferred form of first introduction is as "Lila Tretikov's
significant other", which colours everyone's perception of how he
should be treated.

Thanks,
Fae
--
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

Lila Tretikov
In reply to this post by Michael Snow-5
Thanks Michael for spelling this out further. Your understanding is correct.


On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 7:55 AM, Michael Snow <[hidden email]>wrote:

> On 5/28/2014 5:59 AM, Fæ wrote:
>
>> On 28/05/2014, Lila Tretikov <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> ...
>>
>>> independent individual
>>> able to speak with his own voice and ask his own questions. He does not
>>> take direction from me. He will not work for the WMF or engage with the
>>> WMF
>>> employees.
>>>
>> I do not really understand the point being made about not "engaging"
>>
>> with WMF employees, any active volunteer on Wikimedia projects should
>> and must be free to engage with WMF employees. The statement does not
>> appear to match actions over the last 24 hours, with Wil freely making
>> public comments about his dissatisfaction after conversations
>> (emails?) with some WMF employees.
>>
> I believe the point is that Wil, in particular, will not interfere with
> Wikimedia staff in carrying out their duties, assign them specific tasks,
> or otherwise attempt to supervise and direct their work. These functions
> properly belong to the employee's supervisor, so it's good for community
> members to keep this in mind generally, but especially important for Wil
> because otherwise his connection to Lila might create concern or confusion
> for the staff (as in the recent GitHub situation, which I believe was
> already mentioned). If those guidelines are respected, there should be no
> problem about Wil interacting with staff in an ordinary fashion. I'm sure
> Wil understands this and will be careful about it, and it's also good that
> Lila has said this publicly so that people have something to point to, in
> case anything is uncertain about whether Wil has some sort of special
> authority.
>
> --Michael Snow
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
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> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

Wil Sinclair
In reply to this post by Fæ
Hi Fae, if you're referring to the discussion on this page, then I
think I make it quite clear why I won't engage with WMF employees
going forward: http://wikipediocracy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=4680&start=150.

To be sure, I'm not used to having anyone from Lila's team immediately
emailing her through their official company addresses as soon as I ask
a question in a public forum. In this case, the WMF has made it quite
clear that the IRC channels aren't official and/or sponsored by the
WMF, and I was asking about community affairs WRT to those channels.
So my question about why a user was kicked from the channel didn't
have anything to do with the WMF. I still don't understand why this
employee felt it was necessary to bring Lila's attention to "safety
concerns" through official WMF employee channels, although I'm sure he
or she felt it was the right thing to do and I've given them the
benefit of the doubt that it was. Of course, I can't form my own
independent opinion, since a WMF employee revdeleted the rev in
question in the ~10 minutes between when it was first posted and when
I tried clicking on the link.

In any case, it should be made clear that the WMF did not ask me to
disengage with employees and has not yet asked me to stop posting to
Wikipediocracy directly. So far, the organization itself has respected
my individuality; I can only appeal to everyone in the WP community
and all WMF employees to do the same in the future. I will be engaging
with the broader WP community in whatever way I can, but I've made the
hard decision to limit my engagement with WMF employees to public,
logged forums from now on.

,Wil

On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 5:59 AM, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 28/05/2014, Lila Tretikov <[hidden email]> wrote:
> ...
>> independent individual
>> able to speak with his own voice and ask his own questions. He does not
>> take direction from me. He will not work for the WMF or engage with the WMF
>> employees.
>
> Thanks for making these distinctions. It is sad to see that your time
> and energy is being used so early on in your introduction to the
> Wikimedia community, in creating a political distance between yourself
> and the public actions of your life partner, due to his casual
> curiosity about Wikimedia projects. A curiosity that only manifested
> itself shortly after the public announcement of your employment by the
> Foundation board.
>
> I do not really understand the point being made about not "engaging"
> with WMF employees, any active volunteer on Wikimedia projects should
> and must be free to engage with WMF employees. The statement does not
> appear to match actions over the last 24 hours, with Wil freely making
> public comments about his dissatisfaction after conversations
> (emails?) with some WMF employees.
>
> Thanks again for clarifying your position during this difficult start
> to your engagement.
>
> Fae
> --
> [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

Erik Moeller-4
On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 9:23 AM, Wil Sinclair <[hidden email]> wrote:

> To be sure, I'm not used to having anyone from Lila's team immediately
> emailing her through their official company addresses as soon as I ask
> a question in a public forum. In this case, the WMF has made it quite
> clear that the IRC channels aren't official and/or sponsored by the
> WMF, and I was asking about community affairs WRT to those channels.
> So my question about why a user was kicked from the channel didn't
> have anything to do with the WMF. I still don't understand why this
> employee felt it was necessary to bring Lila's attention to "safety
> concerns" through official WMF employee channels, although I'm sure he
> or she felt it was the right thing to do and I've given them the
> benefit of the doubt that it was. Of course, I can't form my own
> independent opinion, since a WMF employee revdeleted the rev in
> question in the ~10 minutes between when it was first posted and when
> I tried clicking on the link.

If you're talking about the message left on Oliver's talk page, it was
a threat by a banned user which included reference to a dream about
him where "knees were nailed to the floor from the back" and other
such lovely details. That's precisely what moderation features on any
site are for, and to the extent that it included implications of
violence, yes, bringing safety concerns to the attention of senior
staff at WMF is appropriate.

Cheers,

Erik

--
Erik Möller
VP of Engineering and Product Development, Wikimedia Foundation

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

Brandon Harris-4
In reply to this post by Wil Sinclair
A slight correction: the revision was rev-deleted by a member of the community - a member of ArbCom, in fact - and not an employee of the Foundation.

Snt frm m Phn

> On May 28, 2014, at 9:23 AM, Wil Sinclair <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi Fae, if you're referring to the discussion on this page, then I
> think I make it quite clear why I won't engage with WMF employees
> going forward: http://wikipediocracy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=4680&start=150.
>
> To be sure, I'm not used to having anyone from Lila's team immediately
> emailing her through their official company addresses as soon as I ask
> a question in a public forum. In this case, the WMF has made it quite
> clear that the IRC channels aren't official and/or sponsored by the
> WMF, and I was asking about community affairs WRT to those channels.
> So my question about why a user was kicked from the channel didn't
> have anything to do with the WMF. I still don't understand why this
> employee felt it was necessary to bring Lila's attention to "safety
> concerns" through official WMF employee channels, although I'm sure he
> or she felt it was the right thing to do and I've given them the
> benefit of the doubt that it was. Of course, I can't form my own
> independent opinion, since a WMF employee revdeleted the rev in
> question in the ~10 minutes between when it was first posted and when
> I tried clicking on the link.
>
> In any case, it should be made clear that the WMF did not ask me to
> disengage with employees and has not yet asked me to stop posting to
> Wikipediocracy directly. So far, the organization itself has respected
> my individuality; I can only appeal to everyone in the WP community
> and all WMF employees to do the same in the future. I will be engaging
> with the broader WP community in whatever way I can, but I've made the
> hard decision to limit my engagement with WMF employees to public,
> logged forums from now on.
>
> ,Wil
>
>> On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 5:59 AM, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> On 28/05/2014, Lila Tretikov <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> ...
>>> independent individual
>>> able to speak with his own voice and ask his own questions. He does not
>>> take direction from me. He will not work for the WMF or engage with the WMF
>>> employees.
>>
>> Thanks for making these distinctions. It is sad to see that your time
>> and energy is being used so early on in your introduction to the
>> Wikimedia community, in creating a political distance between yourself
>> and the public actions of your life partner, due to his casual
>> curiosity about Wikimedia projects. A curiosity that only manifested
>> itself shortly after the public announcement of your employment by the
>> Foundation board.
>>
>> I do not really understand the point being made about not "engaging"
>> with WMF employees, any active volunteer on Wikimedia projects should
>> and must be free to engage with WMF employees. The statement does not
>> appear to match actions over the last 24 hours, with Wil freely making
>> public comments about his dissatisfaction after conversations
>> (emails?) with some WMF employees.
>>
>> Thanks again for clarifying your position during this difficult start
>> to your engagement.
>>
>> Fae
>> --
>> [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>> [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

Erik Moeller-4
In reply to this post by Michael Snow-5
On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 8:55 AM, Michael Snow <[hidden email]> wrote:
> If those guidelines are respected, there should be no
> problem about Wil interacting with staff in an ordinary fashion. I'm sure
> Wil understands this and will be careful about it, and it's also good that
> Lila has said this publicly so that people have something to point to, in
> case anything is uncertain about whether Wil has some sort of special
> authority.

Yes - agreed. Let's judge Lila by her actions and Wil by his. To the
extent that her association with a quirky, curious, hyperactive guy
who enjoys poking things says anything about her, it's that she'll fit
right in :)

Erik
--
Erik Möller
VP of Engineering and Product Development, Wikimedia Foundation

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

Risker
In reply to this post by Wil Sinclair
Wil, the deletion log of the page in question is publicly visible.  There
are no WMF employees who have deleted anything on that page, ever. This is
information you can check for yourself instead of relying on the words of
others.

Risker


On 28 May 2014 12:23, Wil Sinclair <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Fae, if you're referring to the discussion on this page, then I
> think I make it quite clear why I won't engage with WMF employees
> going forward:
> http://wikipediocracy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=4680&start=150.
>
> To be sure, I'm not used to having anyone from Lila's team immediately
> emailing her through their official company addresses as soon as I ask
> a question in a public forum. In this case, the WMF has made it quite
> clear that the IRC channels aren't official and/or sponsored by the
> WMF, and I was asking about community affairs WRT to those channels.
> So my question about why a user was kicked from the channel didn't
> have anything to do with the WMF. I still don't understand why this
> employee felt it was necessary to bring Lila's attention to "safety
> concerns" through official WMF employee channels, although I'm sure he
> or she felt it was the right thing to do and I've given them the
> benefit of the doubt that it was. Of course, I can't form my own
> independent opinion, since a WMF employee revdeleted the rev in
> question in the ~10 minutes between when it was first posted and when
> I tried clicking on the link.
>
> In any case, it should be made clear that the WMF did not ask me to
> disengage with employees and has not yet asked me to stop posting to
> Wikipediocracy directly. So far, the organization itself has respected
> my individuality; I can only appeal to everyone in the WP community
> and all WMF employees to do the same in the future. I will be engaging
> with the broader WP community in whatever way I can, but I've made the
> hard decision to limit my engagement with WMF employees to public,
> logged forums from now on.
>
> ,Wil
>
> On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 5:59 AM, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On 28/05/2014, Lila Tretikov <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > ...
> >> independent individual
> >> able to speak with his own voice and ask his own questions. He does not
> >> take direction from me. He will not work for the WMF or engage with the
> WMF
> >> employees.
> >
> > Thanks for making these distinctions. It is sad to see that your time
> > and energy is being used so early on in your introduction to the
> > Wikimedia community, in creating a political distance between yourself
> > and the public actions of your life partner, due to his casual
> > curiosity about Wikimedia projects. A curiosity that only manifested
> > itself shortly after the public announcement of your employment by the
> > Foundation board.
> >
> > I do not really understand the point being made about not "engaging"
> > with WMF employees, any active volunteer on Wikimedia projects should
> > and must be free to engage with WMF employees. The statement does not
> > appear to match actions over the last 24 hours, with Wil freely making
> > public comments about his dissatisfaction after conversations
> > (emails?) with some WMF employees.
> >
> > Thanks again for clarifying your position during this difficult start
> > to your engagement.
> >
> > Fae
> > --
> > [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@...>
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

Wil Sinclair
In reply to this post by Erik Moeller-4
On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 9:43 AM, Erik Moeller <[hidden email]> wrote:

> If you're talking about the message left on Oliver's talk page, it was
> a threat by a banned user which included reference to a dream about
> him where "knees were nailed to the floor from the back" and other
> such lovely details. That's precisely what moderation features on any
> site are for, and to the extent that it included implications of
> violence, yes, bringing safety concerns to the attention of senior
> staff at WMF is appropriate.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Erik

Again, this is not my concern. It is my prerogative whether to talk to
WMF employees privately, however, and I choose not to. My apologies
that we won't be able to carry on with our own private conversation,
Erik.

,Wil

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

Wil Sinclair
In reply to this post by Risker
Thanks, I wasn't aware I could do this. I'm assuming that it would be
obvious who was an employee at Wikimedia in the log, too. I posted the
following to Wikipediocracy a few minutes ago:

"
I may have misread which page the rev was on, or I misunderstood the
person who said s/he revdeleted it in thinking that it had been
revdeleted in the previous few minutes. This is exactly why I prefer
public recorded forums. Now no one can go back to clear up the
confusion. For all I know, I might have to apologize for a
misunderstanding, and it would really suck if I somehow misrepresented
things and didn't have any opportunity to straighten things out.

Of course, it is entirely on me. I knew that the IRC channels weren't
logged, and that it was a bannable offense to log them (for those who
aren't familiar with IRC, this essentially means that you aren't
supposed to save conversations there; in most channels that's A-OK,
but on all of the most used wikipedia channels it seems to be
disallowed). Next time I have a concern, I will take it to wikimedia-l
or one of the other mailing lists. As this example also shows, one
can't be sure that the revs on a page within Wikimedia's wikis
themselves won't be redacted after-the-fact. I'm not expressing an
opinion about whether stuff should be redacted or on what grounds, but
I am asserting that it is possible to do so.
"

There is a discussion about this issue there, as well. It can be
followed at the link I posted earlier. Here's the last page of the
discussion that includes the comment above:
http://wikipediocracy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=4680&p=96600#p96600

,Wil

On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 9:57 AM, Risker <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Wil, the deletion log of the page in question is publicly visible.  There
> are no WMF employees who have deleted anything on that page, ever. This is
> information you can check for yourself instead of relying on the words of
> others.
>
> Risker
>
>
> On 28 May 2014 12:23, Wil Sinclair <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Hi Fae, if you're referring to the discussion on this page, then I
>> think I make it quite clear why I won't engage with WMF employees
>> going forward:
>> http://wikipediocracy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=4680&start=150.
>>
>> To be sure, I'm not used to having anyone from Lila's team immediately
>> emailing her through their official company addresses as soon as I ask
>> a question in a public forum. In this case, the WMF has made it quite
>> clear that the IRC channels aren't official and/or sponsored by the
>> WMF, and I was asking about community affairs WRT to those channels.
>> So my question about why a user was kicked from the channel didn't
>> have anything to do with the WMF. I still don't understand why this
>> employee felt it was necessary to bring Lila's attention to "safety
>> concerns" through official WMF employee channels, although I'm sure he
>> or she felt it was the right thing to do and I've given them the
>> benefit of the doubt that it was. Of course, I can't form my own
>> independent opinion, since a WMF employee revdeleted the rev in
>> question in the ~10 minutes between when it was first posted and when
>> I tried clicking on the link.
>>
>> In any case, it should be made clear that the WMF did not ask me to
>> disengage with employees and has not yet asked me to stop posting to
>> Wikipediocracy directly. So far, the organization itself has respected
>> my individuality; I can only appeal to everyone in the WP community
>> and all WMF employees to do the same in the future. I will be engaging
>> with the broader WP community in whatever way I can, but I've made the
>> hard decision to limit my engagement with WMF employees to public,
>> logged forums from now on.
>>
>> ,Wil
>>
>> On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 5:59 AM, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > On 28/05/2014, Lila Tretikov <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > ...
>> >> independent individual
>> >> able to speak with his own voice and ask his own questions. He does not
>> >> take direction from me. He will not work for the WMF or engage with the
>> WMF
>> >> employees.
>> >
>> > Thanks for making these distinctions. It is sad to see that your time
>> > and energy is being used so early on in your introduction to the
>> > Wikimedia community, in creating a political distance between yourself
>> > and the public actions of your life partner, due to his casual
>> > curiosity about Wikimedia projects. A curiosity that only manifested
>> > itself shortly after the public announcement of your employment by the
>> > Foundation board.
>> >
>> > I do not really understand the point being made about not "engaging"
>> > with WMF employees, any active volunteer on Wikimedia projects should
>> > and must be free to engage with WMF employees. The statement does not
>> > appear to match actions over the last 24 hours, with Wil freely making
>> > public comments about his dissatisfaction after conversations
>> > (emails?) with some WMF employees.
>> >
>> > Thanks again for clarifying your position during this difficult start
>> > to your engagement.
>> >
>> > Fae
>> > --
>> > [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>> > [hidden email]
>> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>> [hidden email]<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@...>
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

Martijn Hoekstra
On May 28, 2014 7:09 PM, "Wil Sinclair" <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Thanks, I wasn't aware I could do this. I'm assuming that it would be
> obvious who was an employee at Wikimedia in the log, too. I posted the
> following to Wikipediocracy a few minutes ago:
>
> "
> I may have misread which page the rev was on, or I misunderstood the
> person who said s/he revdeleted it in thinking that it had been
> revdeleted in the previous few minutes. This is exactly why I prefer
> public recorded forums. Now no one can go back to clear up the
> confusion. For all I know, I might have to apologize for a
> misunderstanding, and it would really suck if I somehow misrepresented
> things and didn't have any opportunity to straighten things out.
>
> Of course, it is entirely on me. I knew that the IRC channels weren't
> logged, and that it was a bannable offense to log them (for those who
> aren't familiar with IRC, this essentially means that you aren't
> supposed to save conversations there; in most channels that's A-OK,
> but on all of the most used wikipedia channels it seems to be
> disallowed).

I think you may have misunderstood. Public logging is not allowed, but it's
fine to keep logs for yourself.

I wouldn't mind public logging myself, by the way.

Next time I have a concern, I will take it to wikimedia-l
> or one of the other mailing lists. As this example also shows, one
> can't be sure that the revs on a page within Wikimedia's wikis
> themselves won't be redacted after-the-fact. I'm not expressing an
> opinion about whether stuff should be redacted or on what grounds, but
> I am asserting that it is possible to do so.
> "

Your observation is correct. It is possible to delete revisions from
history. This will be logged. I'm a little surprised you seem surprised by
this. Am I misunderstanding what you mean?

>
> There is a discussion about this issue there, as well. It can be
> followed at the link I posted earlier. Here's the last page of the
> discussion that includes the comment above:
> http://wikipediocracy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=4680&p=96600#p96600
>
> ,Wil
>
> On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 9:57 AM, Risker <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Wil, the deletion log of the page in question is publicly visible.
 There
> > are no WMF employees who have deleted anything on that page, ever. This
is
> > information you can check for yourself instead of relying on the words
of

> > others.
> >
> > Risker
> >
> >
> > On 28 May 2014 12:23, Wil Sinclair <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Fae, if you're referring to the discussion on this page, then I
> >> think I make it quite clear why I won't engage with WMF employees
> >> going forward:
> >> http://wikipediocracy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=4680&start=150.
> >>
> >> To be sure, I'm not used to having anyone from Lila's team immediately
> >> emailing her through their official company addresses as soon as I ask
> >> a question in a public forum. In this case, the WMF has made it quite
> >> clear that the IRC channels aren't official and/or sponsored by the
> >> WMF, and I was asking about community affairs WRT to those channels.
> >> So my question about why a user was kicked from the channel didn't
> >> have anything to do with the WMF. I still don't understand why this
> >> employee felt it was necessary to bring Lila's attention to "safety
> >> concerns" through official WMF employee channels, although I'm sure he
> >> or she felt it was the right thing to do and I've given them the
> >> benefit of the doubt that it was. Of course, I can't form my own
> >> independent opinion, since a WMF employee revdeleted the rev in
> >> question in the ~10 minutes between when it was first posted and when
> >> I tried clicking on the link.
> >>
> >> In any case, it should be made clear that the WMF did not ask me to
> >> disengage with employees and has not yet asked me to stop posting to
> >> Wikipediocracy directly. So far, the organization itself has respected
> >> my individuality; I can only appeal to everyone in the WP community
> >> and all WMF employees to do the same in the future. I will be engaging
> >> with the broader WP community in whatever way I can, but I've made the
> >> hard decision to limit my engagement with WMF employees to public,
> >> logged forums from now on.
> >>
> >> ,Wil
> >>
> >> On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 5:59 AM, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> > On 28/05/2014, Lila Tretikov <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> > ...
> >> >> independent individual
> >> >> able to speak with his own voice and ask his own questions. He does
not
> >> >> take direction from me. He will not work for the WMF or engage with
the
> >> WMF
> >> >> employees.
> >> >
> >> > Thanks for making these distinctions. It is sad to see that your time
> >> > and energy is being used so early on in your introduction to the
> >> > Wikimedia community, in creating a political distance between
yourself
> >> > and the public actions of your life partner, due to his casual
> >> > curiosity about Wikimedia projects. A curiosity that only manifested
> >> > itself shortly after the public announcement of your employment by
the
> >> > Foundation board.
> >> >
> >> > I do not really understand the point being made about not "engaging"
> >> > with WMF employees, any active volunteer on Wikimedia projects should
> >> > and must be free to engage with WMF employees. The statement does not
> >> > appear to match actions over the last 24 hours, with Wil freely
making

> >> > public comments about his dissatisfaction after conversations
> >> > (emails?) with some WMF employees.
> >> >
> >> > Thanks again for clarifying your position during this difficult start
> >> > to your engagement.
> >> >
> >> > Fae
> >> > --
> >> > [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> >> > [hidden email]
> >> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
,
> >> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> >> [hidden email]<
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@...
>
> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> >> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
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> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
<mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.

Nathan Awrich
In reply to this post by Wil Sinclair
On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 1:07 PM, Wil Sinclair <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thanks, I wasn't aware I could do this. I'm assuming that it would be
> obvious who was an employee at Wikimedia in the log, too. I posted the
> following to Wikipediocracy a few minutes ago:
>
> "
> I may have misread which page the rev was on, or I misunderstood the
> person who said s/he revdeleted it in thinking that it had been
> revdeleted in the previous few minutes. This is exactly why I prefer
> public recorded forums. Now no one can go back to clear up the
> confusion. For all I know, I might have to apologize for a
> misunderstanding, and it would really suck if I somehow misrepresented
> things and didn't have any opportunity to straighten things out.
>
> Of course, it is entirely on me. I knew that the IRC channels weren't
> logged, and that it was a bannable offense to log them (for those who
> aren't familiar with IRC, this essentially means that you aren't
> supposed to save conversations there; in most channels that's A-OK,
> but on all of the most used wikipedia channels it seems to be
> disallowed). Next time I have a concern, I will take it to wikimedia-l
> or one of the other mailing lists. As this example also shows, one
> can't be sure that the revs on a page within Wikimedia's wikis
> themselves won't be redacted after-the-fact. I'm not expressing an
> opinion about whether stuff should be redacted or on what grounds, but
> I am asserting that it is possible to do so.
> "
>
> There is a discussion about this issue there, as well. It can be
> followed at the link I posted earlier. Here's the last page of the
> discussion that includes the comment above:
> http://wikipediocracy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=4680&p=96600#p96600
>
> ,Wil
>
>

Hi Wil,

This is exactly why others have suggested that you slow down, and focus on
learning the basics of the Wikimedia projects and movements before jumping
into the hottest, most controversial issues. It takes time to develop the
understanding necessary to draw conclusions, especially in areas most
likely to erupt into drama and heated exchanges.

To wit, I don't believe it can even be determined if someone is logging a
channel, and many people (including Wikimedians) log all of their channels.
Several Wikimedia-related channels are publicly logged. Other channels
prohibit people from publishing logs.

It's also quite common knowledge that revisions can be deleted (by any
administrator, where they remain viewable by administrators) or suppressed
altogether (by users with Oversight rights). I think if you considered it
with a full possession of the facts, you would agree that this is good and
necessary.

In any case, thank you Lila for your note! I appreciate that you have made
it clear you've seen the threads of the last few weeks and understand the
concerns that posters have described.

~Nathan
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