[Wikimedia-l] AFD survey

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[Wikimedia-l] AFD survey

Nicole Askin
We are looking for Wikipedians to participate in a survey. The survey is
designed to help us understand group decision-making and Wikipedia’s
Articles for Deletion (AfD) process. The research is being carried out
under the terms of the University of Western Ontario - Code of Conduct; it
will not lead to any sales follow up; no individual (or organization) will
be identified in our reporting.

If you are an adult Wikipedian, we would be grateful if you could spare
approximately 10-15 minutes to complete this survey.

As a token of our gratitude, for each completed survey we will make a
charitable donation of CAD$2 to the Wikimedia Foundation. If you have any
questions, please contact Lu Xiao at lxiao24 (at) uwo.ca.

To start the survey please click ONCE on the link below: http://
fluidsurveys.com/s/WikipediaSurvey/

Please try to complete the survey by August 1, 2014.

Thank you very much for your time, we really value your input.

Sincerely,

UWO Wikipedia Research Team
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] AFD survey

Peter Southwood
Link does not work.
Cheers,
Peter

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Nicole Askin
Sent: 16 July 2014 04:00 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Wikimedia-l] AFD survey

We are looking for Wikipedians to participate in a survey. The survey is designed to help us understand group decision-making and Wikipedia’s Articles for Deletion (AfD) process. The research is being carried out under the terms of the University of Western Ontario - Code of Conduct; it will not lead to any sales follow up; no individual (or organization) will be identified in our reporting.

If you are an adult Wikipedian, we would be grateful if you could spare approximately 10-15 minutes to complete this survey.

As a token of our gratitude, for each completed survey we will make a charitable donation of CAD$2 to the Wikimedia Foundation. If you have any questions, please contact Lu Xiao at lxiao24 (at) uwo.ca.

To start the survey please click ONCE on the link below: http:// fluidsurveys.com/s/WikipediaSurvey/

Please try to complete the survey by August 1, 2014.

Thank you very much for your time, we really value your input.

Sincerely,

UWO Wikipedia Research Team
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>

-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2014.0.4716 / Virus Database: 3986/7858 - Release Date: 07/15/14


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] AFD survey

Thyge
the http:// part has been left out.
Correct link is

http://fluidsurveys.com/s/WikipediaSurvey/

Regards
Sir48/Thyge



2014-07-16 8:29 GMT+02:00 Peter Southwood <[hidden email]>:

> Link does not work.
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:
> [hidden email]] On Behalf Of Nicole Askin
> Sent: 16 July 2014 04:00 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] AFD survey
>
> We are looking for Wikipedians to participate in a survey. The survey is
> designed to help us understand group decision-making and Wikipedia’s
> Articles for Deletion (AfD) process. The research is being carried out
> under the terms of the University of Western Ontario - Code of Conduct; it
> will not lead to any sales follow up; no individual (or organization) will
> be identified in our reporting.
>
> If you are an adult Wikipedian, we would be grateful if you could spare
> approximately 10-15 minutes to complete this survey.
>
> As a token of our gratitude, for each completed survey we will make a
> charitable donation of CAD$2 to the Wikimedia Foundation. If you have any
> questions, please contact Lu Xiao at lxiao24 (at) uwo.ca.
>
> To start the survey please click ONCE on the link below: http://
> fluidsurveys.com/s/WikipediaSurvey/
>
> Please try to complete the survey by August 1, 2014.
>
> Thank you very much for your time, we really value your input.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> UWO Wikipedia Research Team
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2014.0.4716 / Virus Database: 3986/7858 - Release Date: 07/15/14
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] AFD survey

Fæ
Dear UWO Wikipedia Research Team,

Your survey does not appear to have been approved by the Wikimedia
Research Committee (RCom). You can find contact details at
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research_Committee.

Due to concerns with regard to privacy, such as recording their IP
address against statements of their Wikipedia activities, Wikimedians
are not encouraged to participate in unapproved surveys.

I doubt that many Wikipedians would want to separately find and
analyse the UWO Code of Conduct to check what is tracked or not, and
they would need to do this before opening the fluidsurveys.com
website. I note that this website is not apparently owned by the UWO,
but is a private site that is unlikely to be legally bound by UWO
codes of conduct.

Fae

On 16/07/2014, Thyge <[hidden email]> wrote:

> the http:// part has been left out.
> Correct link is
>
> http://fluidsurveys.com/s/WikipediaSurvey/
>
> Regards
> Sir48/Thyge
>
>
>
> 2014-07-16 8:29 GMT+02:00 Peter Southwood <[hidden email]>:
>
>> Link does not work.
>> Cheers,
>> Peter
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email] [mailto:
>> [hidden email]] On Behalf Of Nicole Askin
>> Sent: 16 July 2014 04:00 AM
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] AFD survey
>>
>> We are looking for Wikipedians to participate in a survey. The survey is
>> designed to help us understand group decision-making and Wikipedia’s
>> Articles for Deletion (AfD) process. The research is being carried out
>> under the terms of the University of Western Ontario - Code of Conduct; it
>> will not lead to any sales follow up; no individual (or organization) will
>> be identified in our reporting.
>>
>> If you are an adult Wikipedian, we would be grateful if you could spare
>> approximately 10-15 minutes to complete this survey.
>>
>> As a token of our gratitude, for each completed survey we will make a
>> charitable donation of CAD$2 to the Wikimedia Foundation. If you have any
>> questions, please contact Lu Xiao at lxiao24 (at) uwo.ca.
>>
>> To start the survey please click ONCE on the link below: http://
>> fluidsurveys.com/s/WikipediaSurvey/
>>
>> Please try to complete the survey by August 1, 2014.
>>
>> Thank you very much for your time, we really value your input.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> UWO Wikipedia Research Team
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>> [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>
>> -----
>> No virus found in this message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 2014.0.4716 / Virus Database: 3986/7858 - Release Date: 07/15/14
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>> [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>


--
[hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
Personal and confidential, please do not circulate or re-quote.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] AFD survey

Federico Leva (Nemo)
In reply to this post by Nicole Askin
Thanks. All questions were generic and about "Wikipedia", so I answered
with the Italian Wikipedia in mind. Also note that it.wiki is perhaps
the only wiki which switched deletions from voting to non-voting: the
experiment was already done, you only need to measure and interpret it.
:-) See
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2013-January/123334.html

I had problems with two questions:
* "Are you concerned that somebody would change or remove your
rationale? Please choose the most applicable response." This question
assumes that removing a comment is bad; I would have answered "Yes when
appropriate per law or policy" but there was no such option.
* "Do you read the rationales in the discussion before making the final
decision?" This assumes that this is just a matter of personal taste;
sometimes policy and process requires it, sometimes not. (For instance
in the classic it.wiki deletion process, but certainly also in some
specific sub-process triggers on en.wiki and others.)

Nemo

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] AFD survey

Tomasz Ganicz
In Polish Wikipedia there is no voting for deletion for around 3-4
years. There is discussion and then final decission is made by one of
admins who regularly maintains the deletion process.

2014-07-16 10:20 GMT+02:00 Federico Leva (Nemo) <[hidden email]>:

> Thanks. All questions were generic and about "Wikipedia", so I answered
> with the Italian Wikipedia in mind. Also note that it.wiki is perhaps
> the only wiki which switched deletions from voting to non-voting: the
> experiment was already done, you only need to measure and interpret it.
> :-) See
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2013-January/123334.html
>
> I had problems with two questions:
> * "Are you concerned that somebody would change or remove your
> rationale? Please choose the most applicable response." This question
> assumes that removing a comment is bad; I would have answered "Yes when
> appropriate per law or policy" but there was no such option.
> * "Do you read the rationales in the discussion before making the final
> decision?" This assumes that this is just a matter of personal taste;
> sometimes policy and process requires it, sometimes not. (For instance
> in the classic it.wiki deletion process, but certainly also in some
> specific sub-process triggers on en.wiki and others.)
>
> Nemo
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>



--
Tomek "Polimerek" Ganicz
http://pl.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Polimerek
http://www.ganicz.pl/poli/
http://www.cbmm.lodz.pl/work.php?id=29&title=tomasz-ganicz

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] AFD survey

Srikanth Ramakrishnan-3
If the people who have created this survey can fix the problems raised by
Fae, I'd be happy to share this with several language Wikipedians in India.
I'm sure that at this point nobody would want to be part of it.
On Jul 16, 2014 1:54 PM, "Tomasz Ganicz" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> In Polish Wikipedia there is no voting for deletion for around 3-4
> years. There is discussion and then final decission is made by one of
> admins who regularly maintains the deletion process.
>
> 2014-07-16 10:20 GMT+02:00 Federico Leva (Nemo) <[hidden email]>:
> > Thanks. All questions were generic and about "Wikipedia", so I answered
> > with the Italian Wikipedia in mind. Also note that it.wiki is perhaps
> > the only wiki which switched deletions from voting to non-voting: the
> > experiment was already done, you only need to measure and interpret it.
> > :-) See
> >
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2013-January/123334.html
> >
> > I had problems with two questions:
> > * "Are you concerned that somebody would change or remove your
> > rationale? Please choose the most applicable response." This question
> > assumes that removing a comment is bad; I would have answered "Yes when
> > appropriate per law or policy" but there was no such option.
> > * "Do you read the rationales in the discussion before making the final
> > decision?" This assumes that this is just a matter of personal taste;
> > sometimes policy and process requires it, sometimes not. (For instance
> > in the classic it.wiki deletion process, but certainly also in some
> > specific sub-process triggers on en.wiki and others.)
> >
> > Nemo
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
>
> --
> Tomek "Polimerek" Ganicz
> http://pl.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Polimerek
> http://www.ganicz.pl/poli/
> http://www.cbmm.lodz.pl/work.php?id=29&title=tomasz-ganicz
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] AFD survey

Todd Allen
In reply to this post by Tomasz Ganicz
English hasn't used voting for a long time either. AfD discussions are
closed based on strength of argument and compliance with policy.
On Jul 16, 2014 2:24 AM, "Tomasz Ganicz" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> In Polish Wikipedia there is no voting for deletion for around 3-4
> years. There is discussion and then final decission is made by one of
> admins who regularly maintains the deletion process.
>
> 2014-07-16 10:20 GMT+02:00 Federico Leva (Nemo) <[hidden email]>:
> > Thanks. All questions were generic and about "Wikipedia", so I answered
> > with the Italian Wikipedia in mind. Also note that it.wiki is perhaps
> > the only wiki which switched deletions from voting to non-voting: the
> > experiment was already done, you only need to measure and interpret it.
> > :-) See
> >
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2013-January/123334.html
> >
> > I had problems with two questions:
> > * "Are you concerned that somebody would change or remove your
> > rationale? Please choose the most applicable response." This question
> > assumes that removing a comment is bad; I would have answered "Yes when
> > appropriate per law or policy" but there was no such option.
> > * "Do you read the rationales in the discussion before making the final
> > decision?" This assumes that this is just a matter of personal taste;
> > sometimes policy and process requires it, sometimes not. (For instance
> > in the classic it.wiki deletion process, but certainly also in some
> > specific sub-process triggers on en.wiki and others.)
> >
> > Nemo
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
>
> --
> Tomek "Polimerek" Ganicz
> http://pl.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Polimerek
> http://www.ganicz.pl/poli/
> http://www.cbmm.lodz.pl/work.php?id=29&title=tomasz-ganicz
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] AFD survey

David Gerard-2
I would suggest that it doesn't become not a vote merely by not
calling it a vote. I note all the closes that count "!votes" and how
the not-voting pattern on a given AFD is frequently brought up at DRV.

On 16 July 2014 12:25, Todd Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> English hasn't used voting for a long time either. AfD discussions are
> closed based on strength of argument and compliance with policy.
> On Jul 16, 2014 2:24 AM, "Tomasz Ganicz" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> In Polish Wikipedia there is no voting for deletion for around 3-4
>> years. There is discussion and then final decission is made by one of
>> admins who regularly maintains the deletion process.
>>
>> 2014-07-16 10:20 GMT+02:00 Federico Leva (Nemo) <[hidden email]>:
>> > Thanks. All questions were generic and about "Wikipedia", so I answered
>> > with the Italian Wikipedia in mind. Also note that it.wiki is perhaps
>> > the only wiki which switched deletions from voting to non-voting: the
>> > experiment was already done, you only need to measure and interpret it.
>> > :-) See
>> >
>> http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2013-January/123334.html
>> >
>> > I had problems with two questions:
>> > * "Are you concerned that somebody would change or remove your
>> > rationale? Please choose the most applicable response." This question
>> > assumes that removing a comment is bad; I would have answered "Yes when
>> > appropriate per law or policy" but there was no such option.
>> > * "Do you read the rationales in the discussion before making the final
>> > decision?" This assumes that this is just a matter of personal taste;
>> > sometimes policy and process requires it, sometimes not. (For instance
>> > in the classic it.wiki deletion process, but certainly also in some
>> > specific sub-process triggers on en.wiki and others.)
>> >
>> > Nemo
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>> > [hidden email]
>> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Tomek "Polimerek" Ganicz
>> http://pl.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Polimerek
>> http://www.ganicz.pl/poli/
>> http://www.cbmm.lodz.pl/work.php?id=29&title=tomasz-ganicz
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>> [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] AFD survey

Lane Rasberry
In reply to this post by Srikanth Ramakrishnan-3
Hello,

I feel that this is an unethical research project and I have told the
researcher so. We exchanged several emails and were unable to understand
each other. I asked them to please have their university ethics board
contact me.

I asked the researcher about RCOM and other things. This person said they
posted to RCOM, but "the Meta page states that submissions should receive
responses within 1-2 weeks, and yet our messages went unanswered. We have
institutional ethics approval, but that doesn't last indefinitely, and so
after receiving no response we opted to go ahead."

I am not going to share more than this publicly, but in short, I talked
with the researcher to the limit of their interest and they feel that they
must proceed with the research.  Their oversight is at
<http://www.uwo.ca/research/about/research_offices.html>
Their RCOM page is at
<
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:The_Use_of_Rationales_in_Wikipedia_Articles_for_Deletion_Discussions_and_in_Group_Decision_Making
>

My concern here, as with many surveys, is that the researcher greatly
values their time and assigns less value to Wikipedia community time, and
is comfortable asking for lots of volunteer time on the pretense of helping
our community. This kind of research is, in my opinion, not helpful to
Wikipedians because the questions make no sense due to having been designed
by an outsider, and additionally so many people have these same questions
and only want to target our most active and busiest and valuable
volunteers. Furthermore there is no compliance here with community values
in research. Bad surveys create "survey fatigue", in which volunteers are
later disinclined to participate in good and useful community-approved
research.

If anyone sees research problems in the future I am interested in talking
about these things. I have been thinking of becoming more involved in
supporting RCOM for some time.

The basic problem is that practically all researchers assume that the
number of highly active Wikipedians is huge, and therefore, they imagine no
problem for them to ask for any amount of volunteer time to be diverted
from Wikipedia to their personal and private collection of survey data. The
reality is that there are not more than hundreds or low thousands of
Wikipedians who are active to the extent they imagine. This survey is
targeting English AfD, where I imagine there are only low hundreds of at
most of continually active participants, and the reality may be much lower
participation than that.

I asked this researcher to discontinue the survey pending a check on the
impact of it on the Wikipedia community. I said this because I feel they
are out of compliance with even the soft suggestions in research that are
available, and they know this.

yours,


On Wed, Jul 16, 2014 at 6:53 AM, Srikanth Ramakrishnan <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> If the people who have created this survey can fix the problems raised by
> Fae, I'd be happy to share this with several language Wikipedians in India.
> I'm sure that at this point nobody would want to be part of it.
> On Jul 16, 2014 1:54 PM, "Tomasz Ganicz" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > In Polish Wikipedia there is no voting for deletion for around 3-4
> > years. There is discussion and then final decission is made by one of
> > admins who regularly maintains the deletion process.
> >
> > 2014-07-16 10:20 GMT+02:00 Federico Leva (Nemo) <[hidden email]>:
> > > Thanks. All questions were generic and about "Wikipedia", so I answered
> > > with the Italian Wikipedia in mind. Also note that it.wiki is perhaps
> > > the only wiki which switched deletions from voting to non-voting: the
> > > experiment was already done, you only need to measure and interpret it.
> > > :-) See
> > >
> >
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2013-January/123334.html
> > >
> > > I had problems with two questions:
> > > * "Are you concerned that somebody would change or remove your
> > > rationale? Please choose the most applicable response." This question
> > > assumes that removing a comment is bad; I would have answered "Yes when
> > > appropriate per law or policy" but there was no such option.
> > > * "Do you read the rationales in the discussion before making the final
> > > decision?" This assumes that this is just a matter of personal taste;
> > > sometimes policy and process requires it, sometimes not. (For instance
> > > in the classic it.wiki deletion process, but certainly also in some
> > > specific sub-process triggers on en.wiki and others.)
> > >
> > > Nemo
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Tomek "Polimerek" Ganicz
> > http://pl.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Polimerek
> > http://www.ganicz.pl/poli/
> > http://www.cbmm.lodz.pl/work.php?id=29&title=tomasz-ganicz
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] AFD survey

Federico Leva (Nemo)
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2
David Gerard, 16/07/2014 13:34:
> I would suggest that it doesn't become not a vote merely by not
> calling it a vote. I note all the closes that count "!votes" and how
> the not-voting pattern on a given AFD is frequently brought up at DRV.

Sure, but calling it a vote makes it a vote. If it's explicitly a vote
by policy, then there won't be such complaints. :-) AFAIK deletion has
never been a vote by policy on en.wiki.

Nemo

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] AFD survey

Fæ
In reply to this post by Lane Rasberry
On 16 July 2014 12:39, Lane Rasberry <[hidden email]> wrote:
...
> I asked this researcher to discontinue the survey pending a check on the
> impact of it on the Wikipedia community. I said this because I feel they
> are out of compliance with even the soft suggestions in research that are
> available, and they know this.

Good point. If anyone wanted to research deletion discussion patterns
and outcomes on the English Wikipedia or other projects, I could knock
out a nice analysis using a little passive but intelligent bot work
depending on their requirements. I'm easy to find.

I'm pretty sure this would be a lot cheaper in volunteer time or
research time than creating surveys to answer very similar questions,
particularly if the resulting report were freely published so that
volunteers could give their "subjective value responses" to that
instead.

Fae
--
[hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] AFD survey

Amir E. Aharoni
In reply to this post by Lane Rasberry
Good points, Lane. Such things were possibly discussed before, but it's the
first time that I see it it spelled out like this.

This approach should be advertised a bit somehow, so that the researchers
know how to do it ethically and for everybody's benefit, and so that the
experienced Wikipedians would know not to start answering such surveys.


--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
‪“We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬


2014-07-16 14:39 GMT+03:00 Lane Rasberry <[hidden email]>:

> Hello,
>
> I feel that this is an unethical research project and I have told the
> researcher so. We exchanged several emails and were unable to understand
> each other. I asked them to please have their university ethics board
> contact me.
>
> I asked the researcher about RCOM and other things. This person said they
> posted to RCOM, but "the Meta page states that submissions should receive
> responses within 1-2 weeks, and yet our messages went unanswered. We have
> institutional ethics approval, but that doesn't last indefinitely, and so
> after receiving no response we opted to go ahead."
>
> I am not going to share more than this publicly, but in short, I talked
> with the researcher to the limit of their interest and they feel that they
> must proceed with the research.  Their oversight is at
> <http://www.uwo.ca/research/about/research_offices.html>
> Their RCOM page is at
> <
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:The_Use_of_Rationales_in_Wikipedia_Articles_for_Deletion_Discussions_and_in_Group_Decision_Making
> >
>
> My concern here, as with many surveys, is that the researcher greatly
> values their time and assigns less value to Wikipedia community time, and
> is comfortable asking for lots of volunteer time on the pretense of helping
> our community. This kind of research is, in my opinion, not helpful to
> Wikipedians because the questions make no sense due to having been designed
> by an outsider, and additionally so many people have these same questions
> and only want to target our most active and busiest and valuable
> volunteers. Furthermore there is no compliance here with community values
> in research. Bad surveys create "survey fatigue", in which volunteers are
> later disinclined to participate in good and useful community-approved
> research.
>
> If anyone sees research problems in the future I am interested in talking
> about these things. I have been thinking of becoming more involved in
> supporting RCOM for some time.
>
> The basic problem is that practically all researchers assume that the
> number of highly active Wikipedians is huge, and therefore, they imagine no
> problem for them to ask for any amount of volunteer time to be diverted
> from Wikipedia to their personal and private collection of survey data. The
> reality is that there are not more than hundreds or low thousands of
> Wikipedians who are active to the extent they imagine. This survey is
> targeting English AfD, where I imagine there are only low hundreds of at
> most of continually active participants, and the reality may be much lower
> participation than that.
>
> I asked this researcher to discontinue the survey pending a check on the
> impact of it on the Wikipedia community. I said this because I feel they
> are out of compliance with even the soft suggestions in research that are
> available, and they know this.
>
> yours,
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 16, 2014 at 6:53 AM, Srikanth Ramakrishnan <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > If the people who have created this survey can fix the problems raised by
> > Fae, I'd be happy to share this with several language Wikipedians in
> India.
> > I'm sure that at this point nobody would want to be part of it.
> > On Jul 16, 2014 1:54 PM, "Tomasz Ganicz" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > In Polish Wikipedia there is no voting for deletion for around 3-4
> > > years. There is discussion and then final decission is made by one of
> > > admins who regularly maintains the deletion process.
> > >
> > > 2014-07-16 10:20 GMT+02:00 Federico Leva (Nemo) <[hidden email]>:
> > > > Thanks. All questions were generic and about "Wikipedia", so I
> answered
> > > > with the Italian Wikipedia in mind. Also note that it.wiki is perhaps
> > > > the only wiki which switched deletions from voting to non-voting: the
> > > > experiment was already done, you only need to measure and interpret
> it.
> > > > :-) See
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2013-January/123334.html
> > > >
> > > > I had problems with two questions:
> > > > * "Are you concerned that somebody would change or remove your
> > > > rationale? Please choose the most applicable response." This question
> > > > assumes that removing a comment is bad; I would have answered "Yes
> when
> > > > appropriate per law or policy" but there was no such option.
> > > > * "Do you read the rationales in the discussion before making the
> final
> > > > decision?" This assumes that this is just a matter of personal taste;
> > > > sometimes policy and process requires it, sometimes not. (For
> instance
> > > > in the classic it.wiki deletion process, but certainly also in some
> > > > specific sub-process triggers on en.wiki and others.)
> > > >
> > > > Nemo
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Tomek "Polimerek" Ganicz
> > > http://pl.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Polimerek
> > > http://www.ganicz.pl/poli/
> > > http://www.cbmm.lodz.pl/work.php?id=29&title=tomasz-ganicz
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > [hidden email]
> > <
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@...
> >
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Lane Rasberry
> user:bluerasberry on Wikipedia
> 206.801.0814
> [hidden email]
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] AFD survey

Marc-Andre
In reply to this post by Federico Leva (Nemo)
On 07/16/2014 07:44 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote:
> AFAIK deletion has
> never been a vote by policy on en.wiki.

No, but it almost always devolves to a vote de facto.  Interestingly
enough, that particular question (did you close discussions by counting
show of hand vs evaluating the rationales) appears in the survey, which
shows that they are at least aware of the dichotomy.

-- Marc


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] AFD survey

Nicole Askin
In reply to this post by Nicole Askin
Perhaps Lane's involvement with RCOM would prevent submissions from going
unanswered for months - this is a huge roadblock to researchers who are
trying to do things ethically. On the other hand, if Lane were to accuse
other researchers of harming the community for personal gain, as he has
done off-list in this case, that too would be very problematic, IMO worse
than any survey of this type.
I would like to thank others for their feedback. Yes, we are aware of
NOTAVOTE - the terminology is a bit problematic, but we are trying to get
at the unique use of rationales that ideally constitutes the bulk of such
non-vote discussions.



> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2014 15:43:48 +0300
> From: "Amir E. Aharoni" <[hidden email]>
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] AFD survey
> Message-ID:
>         <CACtNa8tHeMQRxjnsGHdHDG5B=BX0BsMe4HwSt0GVWp18=
> [hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Good points, Lane. Such things were possibly discussed before, but it's the
> first time that I see it it spelled out like this.
>
> This approach should be advertised a bit somehow, so that the researchers
> know how to do it ethically and for everybody's benefit, and so that the
> experienced Wikipedians would know not to start answering such surveys.
>
>
> --
> Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
> http://aharoni.wordpress.com
> ‪“We're living in pieces,
> I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬
>
>
> 2014-07-16 14:39 GMT+03:00 Lane Rasberry <[hidden email]>:
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > I feel that this is an unethical research project and I have told the
> > researcher so. We exchanged several emails and were unable to understand
> > each other. I asked them to please have their university ethics board
> > contact me.
> >
> > I asked the researcher about RCOM and other things. This person said they
> > posted to RCOM, but "the Meta page states that submissions should receive
> > responses within 1-2 weeks, and yet our messages went unanswered. We have
> > institutional ethics approval, but that doesn't last indefinitely, and so
> > after receiving no response we opted to go ahead."
> >
> > I am not going to share more than this publicly, but in short, I talked
> > with the researcher to the limit of their interest and they feel that
> they
> > must proceed with the research.  Their oversight is at
> > <http://www.uwo.ca/research/about/research_offices.html>
> > Their RCOM page is at
> > <
> >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:The_Use_of_Rationales_in_Wikipedia_Articles_for_Deletion_Discussions_and_in_Group_Decision_Making
> > >
> >
> > My concern here, as with many surveys, is that the researcher greatly
> > values their time and assigns less value to Wikipedia community time, and
> > is comfortable asking for lots of volunteer time on the pretense of
> helping
> > our community. This kind of research is, in my opinion, not helpful to
> > Wikipedians because the questions make no sense due to having been
> designed
> > by an outsider, and additionally so many people have these same questions
> > and only want to target our most active and busiest and valuable
> > volunteers. Furthermore there is no compliance here with community values
> > in research. Bad surveys create "survey fatigue", in which volunteers are
> > later disinclined to participate in good and useful community-approved
> > research.
> >
> > If anyone sees research problems in the future I am interested in talking
> > about these things. I have been thinking of becoming more involved in
> > supporting RCOM for some time.
> >
> > The basic problem is that practically all researchers assume that the
> > number of highly active Wikipedians is huge, and therefore, they imagine
> no
> > problem for them to ask for any amount of volunteer time to be diverted
> > from Wikipedia to their personal and private collection of survey data.
> The
> > reality is that there are not more than hundreds or low thousands of
> > Wikipedians who are active to the extent they imagine. This survey is
> > targeting English AfD, where I imagine there are only low hundreds of at
> > most of continually active participants, and the reality may be much
> lower
> > participation than that.
> >
> > I asked this researcher to discontinue the survey pending a check on the
> > impact of it on the Wikipedia community. I said this because I feel they
> > are out of compliance with even the soft suggestions in research that are
> > available, and they know this.
> >
> > yours,
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 16, 2014 at 6:53 AM, Srikanth Ramakrishnan <
> > [hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > If the people who have created this survey can fix the problems raised
> by
> > > Fae, I'd be happy to share this with several language Wikipedians in
> > India.
> > > I'm sure that at this point nobody would want to be part of it.
> > > On Jul 16, 2014 1:54 PM, "Tomasz Ganicz" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > In Polish Wikipedia there is no voting for deletion for around 3-4
> > > > years. There is discussion and then final decission is made by one of
> > > > admins who regularly maintains the deletion process.
> > > >
> > > > 2014-07-16 10:20 GMT+02:00 Federico Leva (Nemo) <[hidden email]
> >:
> > > > > Thanks. All questions were generic and about "Wikipedia", so I
> > answered
> > > > > with the Italian Wikipedia in mind. Also note that it.wiki is
> perhaps
> > > > > the only wiki which switched deletions from voting to non-voting:
> the
> > > > > experiment was already done, you only need to measure and interpret
> > it.
> > > > > :-) See
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2013-January/123334.html
> > > > >
> > > > > I had problems with two questions:
> > > > > * "Are you concerned that somebody would change or remove your
> > > > > rationale? Please choose the most applicable response." This
> question
> > > > > assumes that removing a comment is bad; I would have answered "Yes
> > when
> > > > > appropriate per law or policy" but there was no such option.
> > > > > * "Do you read the rationales in the discussion before making the
> > final
> > > > > decision?" This assumes that this is just a matter of personal
> taste;
> > > > > sometimes policy and process requires it, sometimes not. (For
> > instance
> > > > > in the classic it.wiki deletion process, but certainly also in some
> > > > > specific sub-process triggers on en.wiki and others.)
> > > > >
> > > > > Nemo
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Tomek "Polimerek" Ganicz
> > > > http://pl.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Polimerek
> > > > http://www.ganicz.pl/poli/
> > > > http://www.cbmm.lodz.pl/work.php?id=29&title=tomasz-ganicz
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > [hidden email]
> > > <
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@...
> > >
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Lane Rasberry
> > user:bluerasberry on Wikipedia
> > 206.801.0814
> > [hidden email]
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2014 09:49:34 -0400
> From: "Marc A. Pelletier" <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] AFD survey
> Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> On 07/16/2014 07:44 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote:
> > AFAIK deletion has
> > never been a vote by policy on en.wiki.
>
> No, but it almost always devolves to a vote de facto.  Interestingly
> enough, that particular question (did you close discussions by counting
> show of hand vs evaluating the rationales) appears in the survey, which
> shows that they are at least aware of the dichotomy.
>
> -- Marc
>
>
> ********************************************
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] AFD survey

Andy Mabbett-2
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2
On 16 July 2014 12:34, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I would suggest that it doesn't become not a vote merely by not
> calling it a vote. I note all the closes that count "!votes" and how
> the not-voting pattern on a given AFD is frequently brought up at DRV.

Vote-counting is increasingly prevalent in template deletion
discussions (TfDs) on en.WP, too.

I raised my concerns there, in May:

   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Templates_for_discussion#Closure_decisions

--
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] AFD survey

Nathan Awrich
In reply to this post by Lane Rasberry
On Wed, Jul 16, 2014 at 7:39 AM, Lane Rasberry <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I feel that this is an unethical research project and I have told the
> researcher so. We exchanged several emails and were unable to understand
> each other. I asked them to please have their university ethics board
> contact me.
>
> I asked the researcher about RCOM and other things. This person said they
> posted to RCOM, but "the Meta page states that submissions should receive
> responses within 1-2 weeks, and yet our messages went unanswered. We have
> institutional ethics approval, but that doesn't last indefinitely, and so
> after receiving no response we opted to go ahead."
>
> I am not going to share more than this publicly, but in short, I talked
> with the researcher to the limit of their interest and they feel that they
> must proceed with the research.  Their oversight is at
> <http://www.uwo.ca/research/about/research_offices.html>



The survey is voluntary, obviously, and anyone who doesn't wish to
participate need not. No one is under any obligation to promote it, and we
have no rules barring anyone from posting a notice of such a survey to
public mailing lists. The survey may not be well designed (we don't
necessarily know the full aim of the research), or well targeted, but I do
not see how that makes it unethical. No time or effort is consumed that is
not volunteered by anyone who elects to participate.

The WMF research committee is not the sole arbiter of who can perform
research or analysis of the Wikimedia movement or any individual projects;
it merely promises recruiting assistance as the result of approval. The
proposal for this survey was submitted to RCOM in January, with evidently
no comment or contact from RCOM since. The RCOM page says it has not met
since 2011. The process appears to be defunct and no researcher should be
required to wait for it to be resurrected.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] AFD survey

Nathan Awrich
To avoid confusion with researchers in the future, I've made some minor
changes to the research related pages on Meta (see below). This should help
ensure that outdated documentation does not cause unnecessarily delay
and/or expense for those interested in doing Wikimedia-related research.

1: Posted a notice to the top of
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Subject_recruitment to the effect
that RCOM no longer evaluates research projects or participates in
recruiting participants, and removed the assertion that research requires
approval from RCOM.

2: Updated https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:FAQ to make it clear
that the WMF / RCOM does not evaluate specific research proposals or assist
in recruiting, and that any researcher intending to conduct on-wiki
interaction should seek approval from the local projects using whatever
methods have been established locally.

3: Removed the reference to RCOM approval from
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Projects
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