[Wikimedia-l] Banning real identities

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[Wikimedia-l] Banning real identities

Thomas Townsend
All,

In an attempt to move the discussion on from unprofitable and
inappropriate speculations about information shared in confidence,
let's look at one of the aspects that is made public.  When the WMF
issues a WMF Global Ban in line with
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WMF_Global_Ban_Policy it  has been in
the habit of doing so by login identity or pseudonym as at
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WMF_Global_Ban_Policy/List

This makes perfect sense in terms of blocking users from logging in,
but the bans are not only issued against individuals personally rather
than specific account names ("A Foundation global ban is placed
against an individual instead of against a specific username") but
applies to real-world activities such as events and meetings ("as well
as any in-person events hosted, sponsored or funded by the
Foundation") for which people tyoically register and pay under a real
name.

Has the time not come to for WMF Global Bans to name people under
their real names, where known?  In answer to one likely objection:
this is not outing, since that applies only to members of the
Wikimedia community.  People subject to WMF Global Bans are no longer
members of that community: the ban pernamentaly and irrevocably
removes them from membership ("Foundation global bans are final; they
are not appealable, not negotiable and not reversible.").

The Turnip

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Banning real identities

Isaac Olatunde
Why do you think this is important and what real purpose do you think this
will serve? Well, I don't think WMF would log  global banned users by their
real for  a number of reasons and I don't see any reason why they should
start doing that.

Regards,

Isaac
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Banning real identities

Todd Allen
In reply to this post by Thomas Townsend
Well, first off, there's no guarantee that anyone even knows their real
name. They could find mine, sure, but then I've never made an attempt to
keep it secret. I suspect many editors never have given out their real
name, and publishing a guess would be unethical beyond belief.

But just no, in any case. That seems a purely punitive measure. Certainly,
if the person's real identity is known, they might want to inform, for
example, site security staff at WMF events, as that's a "need to know" type
situation. But I see absolutely no reason to release it to the general
public. That's just doxing as a punishment, and I think that's absolutely
unethical and we're a lot better than that.

Even if we must ban someone from our communities, we should do everything
possible (and everything as far as they'll allow) to let them go in peace
and with dignity, and, again if they will, to make a clean break of it. We
shouldn't take the opportunity to kick them while they're down, even if the
ban was richly deserved.

Todd

On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 1:10 PM Thomas Townsend <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> All,
>
> In an attempt to move the discussion on from unprofitable and
> inappropriate speculations about information shared in confidence,
> let's look at one of the aspects that is made public.  When the WMF
> issues a WMF Global Ban in line with
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WMF_Global_Ban_Policy it  has been in
> the habit of doing so by login identity or pseudonym as at
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WMF_Global_Ban_Policy/List
>
> This makes perfect sense in terms of blocking users from logging in,
> but the bans are not only issued against individuals personally rather
> than specific account names ("A Foundation global ban is placed
> against an individual instead of against a specific username") but
> applies to real-world activities such as events and meetings ("as well
> as any in-person events hosted, sponsored or funded by the
> Foundation") for which people tyoically register and pay under a real
> name.
>
> Has the time not come to for WMF Global Bans to name people under
> their real names, where known?  In answer to one likely objection:
> this is not outing, since that applies only to members of the
> Wikimedia community.  People subject to WMF Global Bans are no longer
> members of that community: the ban pernamentaly and irrevocably
> removes them from membership ("Foundation global bans are final; they
> are not appealable, not negotiable and not reversible.").
>
> The Turnip
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Banning real identities

Thomas Townsend
In reply to this post by Isaac Olatunde
> Why do you think this is important and what real purpose do you think this
> will serve?

A good question.  The stated object of global bans is "to help assure
the safety of users of the Wikimedia projects and/or assist in
preventing prohibited behavior that hinders dialogue, project
development and expansion".  Identifying those persons banned as fully
as possible helps to achieve that assurance and protect the community.

The Turnip.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Banning real identities

Alphos OGame
I was doxxed by someone in the movement a few years ago, and I cannot stress this enough : WE MUST NOT DOXX PEOPLE.
It doesn't matter how good our intentions are.
It doesn't matter how bad these people are.
We as a community choose to block, ban, lock, whether or not globally, the accounts of people we deem unable to contribute.
We must not disclose unilaterally after the fact the identity of a contributor. And not only because we may well have no clue about it. It may get them jailed for the wrong reasons. It may get them harmed for their genuine contributions.
That MUST NOT (rfc2119 [1]) be how we handle things.
Once again, I cannot stress this enough.

Do not do this. This is a bad idea on so many levels. Pretty much all of them, really.

Alphos

[1] https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2119.txt

Le 2 juil. 2019 à 08:17, Thomas Townsend <[hidden email]> a écrit :

>> Why do you think this is important and what real purpose do you think this
>> will serve?
>
> A good question.  The stated object of global bans is "to help assure
> the safety of users of the Wikimedia projects and/or assist in
> preventing prohibited behavior that hinders dialogue, project
> development and expansion".  Identifying those persons banned as fully
> as possible helps to achieve that assurance and protect the community.
>
> The Turnip.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Banning real identities

Thomas Townsend
Alphos

You don;t explain why being "doxxed" was a bad thing for you, or
indeed what the downside is for anyone,  You simply assert that it is
a Bad Thing and must not happen.  Would you like to give your reasons
for those assertions?

The Turnip

On Thu, 4 Jul 2019 at 15:12, Alphos OGame <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> I was doxxed by someone in the movement a few years ago, and I cannot stress this enough : WE MUST NOT DOXX PEOPLE.
> It doesn't matter how good our intentions are.
> It doesn't matter how bad these people are.
> We as a community choose to block, ban, lock, whether or not globally, the accounts of people we deem unable to contribute.
> We must not disclose unilaterally after the fact the identity of a contributor. And not only because we may well have no clue about it. It may get them jailed for the wrong reasons. It may get them harmed for their genuine contributions.
> That MUST NOT (rfc2119 [1]) be how we handle things.
> Once again, I cannot stress this enough.
>
> Do not do this. This is a bad idea on so many levels. Pretty much all of them, really.
>
> Alphos
>
> [1] https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2119.txt
>
> Le 2 juil. 2019 à 08:17, Thomas Townsend <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>
> >> Why do you think this is important and what real purpose do you think this
> >> will serve?
> >
> > A good question.  The stated object of global bans is "to help assure
> > the safety of users of the Wikimedia projects and/or assist in
> > preventing prohibited behavior that hinders dialogue, project
> > development and expansion".  Identifying those persons banned as fully
> > as possible helps to achieve that assurance and protect the community.
> >
> > The Turnip.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Banning real identities

Thyge
- and please explain the meaning of 'doxxed" as well. Is that US slang?

Thyge - Sir48

Den fre. 5. jul. 2019 kl. 11.53 skrev Thomas Townsend <[hidden email]
>:

> Alphos
>
> You don;t explain why being "doxxed" was a bad thing for you, or
> indeed what the downside is for anyone,  You simply assert that it is
> a Bad Thing and must not happen.  Would you like to give your reasons
> for those assertions?
>
> The Turnip
>
> On Thu, 4 Jul 2019 at 15:12, Alphos OGame <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > I was doxxed by someone in the movement a few years ago, and I cannot
> stress this enough : WE MUST NOT DOXX PEOPLE.
> > It doesn't matter how good our intentions are.
> > It doesn't matter how bad these people are.
> > We as a community choose to block, ban, lock, whether or not globally,
> the accounts of people we deem unable to contribute.
> > We must not disclose unilaterally after the fact the identity of a
> contributor. And not only because we may well have no clue about it. It may
> get them jailed for the wrong reasons. It may get them harmed for their
> genuine contributions.
> > That MUST NOT (rfc2119 [1]) be how we handle things.
> > Once again, I cannot stress this enough.
> >
> > Do not do this. This is a bad idea on so many levels. Pretty much all of
> them, really.
> >
> > Alphos
> >
> > [1] https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2119.txt
> >
> > Le 2 juil. 2019 à 08:17, Thomas Townsend <[hidden email]> a
> écrit :
> >
> > >> Why do you think this is important and what real purpose do you think
> this
> > >> will serve?
> > >
> > > A good question.  The stated object of global bans is "to help assure
> > > the safety of users of the Wikimedia projects and/or assist in
> > > preventing prohibited behavior that hinders dialogue, project
> > > development and expansion".  Identifying those persons banned as fully
> > > as possible helps to achieve that assurance and protect the community.
> > >
> > > The Turnip.
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
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> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Banning real identities

Todd Allen
Doxing means to reveal personal data about someone against their wishes. So
if you found out my address and telephone number and posted it to this
thread, that would be doxing me.

On Fri, Jul 5, 2019, 5:26 AM Thyge <[hidden email]> wrote:

> - and please explain the meaning of 'doxxed" as well. Is that US slang?
>
> Thyge - Sir48
>
> Den fre. 5. jul. 2019 kl. 11.53 skrev Thomas Townsend <
> [hidden email]
> >:
>
> > Alphos
> >
> > You don;t explain why being "doxxed" was a bad thing for you, or
> > indeed what the downside is for anyone,  You simply assert that it is
> > a Bad Thing and must not happen.  Would you like to give your reasons
> > for those assertions?
> >
> > The Turnip
> >
> > On Thu, 4 Jul 2019 at 15:12, Alphos OGame <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > I was doxxed by someone in the movement a few years ago, and I cannot
> > stress this enough : WE MUST NOT DOXX PEOPLE.
> > > It doesn't matter how good our intentions are.
> > > It doesn't matter how bad these people are.
> > > We as a community choose to block, ban, lock, whether or not globally,
> > the accounts of people we deem unable to contribute.
> > > We must not disclose unilaterally after the fact the identity of a
> > contributor. And not only because we may well have no clue about it. It
> may
> > get them jailed for the wrong reasons. It may get them harmed for their
> > genuine contributions.
> > > That MUST NOT (rfc2119 [1]) be how we handle things.
> > > Once again, I cannot stress this enough.
> > >
> > > Do not do this. This is a bad idea on so many levels. Pretty much all
> of
> > them, really.
> > >
> > > Alphos
> > >
> > > [1] https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2119.txt
> > >
> > > Le 2 juil. 2019 à 08:17, Thomas Townsend <[hidden email]> a
> > écrit :
> > >
> > > >> Why do you think this is important and what real purpose do you
> think
> > this
> > > >> will serve?
> > > >
> > > > A good question.  The stated object of global bans is "to help assure
> > > > the safety of users of the Wikimedia projects and/or assist in
> > > > preventing prohibited behavior that hinders dialogue, project
> > > > development and expansion".  Identifying those persons banned as
> fully
> > > > as possible helps to achieve that assurance and protect the
> community.
> > > >
> > > > The Turnip.
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
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> >
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Banning real identities

Isaac Olatunde
Doxxing is often considered as harassment. See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Harassment#Posting_of_personal_information


Isaac

On Fri, Jul 5, 2019, 12:30 PM Todd Allen <[hidden email] wrote:

> Doxing means to reveal personal data about someone against their wishes. So
> if you found out my address and telephone number and posted it to this
> thread, that would be doxing me.
>
> On Fri, Jul 5, 2019, 5:26 AM Thyge <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > - and please explain the meaning of 'doxxed" as well. Is that US slang?
> >
> > Thyge - Sir48
> >
> > Den fre. 5. jul. 2019 kl. 11.53 skrev Thomas Townsend <
> > [hidden email]
> > >:
> >
> > > Alphos
> > >
> > > You don;t explain why being "doxxed" was a bad thing for you, or
> > > indeed what the downside is for anyone,  You simply assert that it is
> > > a Bad Thing and must not happen.  Would you like to give your reasons
> > > for those assertions?
> > >
> > > The Turnip
> > >
> > > On Thu, 4 Jul 2019 at 15:12, Alphos OGame <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I was doxxed by someone in the movement a few years ago, and I cannot
> > > stress this enough : WE MUST NOT DOXX PEOPLE.
> > > > It doesn't matter how good our intentions are.
> > > > It doesn't matter how bad these people are.
> > > > We as a community choose to block, ban, lock, whether or not
> globally,
> > > the accounts of people we deem unable to contribute.
> > > > We must not disclose unilaterally after the fact the identity of a
> > > contributor. And not only because we may well have no clue about it. It
> > may
> > > get them jailed for the wrong reasons. It may get them harmed for their
> > > genuine contributions.
> > > > That MUST NOT (rfc2119 [1]) be how we handle things.
> > > > Once again, I cannot stress this enough.
> > > >
> > > > Do not do this. This is a bad idea on so many levels. Pretty much all
> > of
> > > them, really.
> > > >
> > > > Alphos
> > > >
> > > > [1] https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2119.txt
> > > >
> > > > Le 2 juil. 2019 à 08:17, Thomas Townsend <[hidden email]> a
> > > écrit :
> > > >
> > > > >> Why do you think this is important and what real purpose do you
> > think
> > > this
> > > > >> will serve?
> > > > >
> > > > > A good question.  The stated object of global bans is "to help
> assure
> > > > > the safety of users of the Wikimedia projects and/or assist in
> > > > > preventing prohibited behavior that hinders dialogue, project
> > > > > development and expansion".  Identifying those persons banned as
> > fully
> > > > > as possible helps to achieve that assurance and protect the
> > community.
> > > > >
> > > > > The Turnip.
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Banning real identities

Andy Mabbett-2
In reply to this post by Thyge
> Den fre. 5. jul. 2019 kl. 11.53 skrev Thomas Townsend <[hidden email]

> > You don;t explain why being "doxxed" was a bad thing for you, or
> > indeed what the downside is for anyone,  You simply assert that it is
> > a Bad Thing and must not happen.  Would you like to give your reasons
> > for those assertions?

I lost my wallet to a pickpocket last week. Do I now need to give
reasons why this was a bad thing?

Quite apart from the fact that you ignore the text "It may get them
jailed for the wrong reasons. It may get them harmed for their genuine
contributions."

On Fri, 5 Jul 2019 at 12:25, Thyge <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> - and please explain the meaning of 'doxxed" as well. Is that US slang?

If only there was some sort of free online encyclopedia, where such
things could be looked up:

   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doxing

--
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Banning real identities

Vi to
Putting it simple WMF/functionaries/the community itself should take the
less invasive actions needed to protect themselves.

A public list of "persona non grata" for events is needed for sure, but I
don't see any practical need to have it publicly shared.

Vito

Il giorno ven 5 lug 2019 alle ore 13:41 Andy Mabbett <
[hidden email]> ha scritto:

> > Den fre. 5. jul. 2019 kl. 11.53 skrev Thomas Townsend <
> [hidden email]
>
> > > You don;t explain why being "doxxed" was a bad thing for you, or
> > > indeed what the downside is for anyone,  You simply assert that it is
> > > a Bad Thing and must not happen.  Would you like to give your reasons
> > > for those assertions?
>
> I lost my wallet to a pickpocket last week. Do I now need to give
> reasons why this was a bad thing?
>
> Quite apart from the fact that you ignore the text "It may get them
> jailed for the wrong reasons. It may get them harmed for their genuine
> contributions."
>
> On Fri, 5 Jul 2019 at 12:25, Thyge <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > - and please explain the meaning of 'doxxed" as well. Is that US slang?
>
> If only there was some sort of free online encyclopedia, where such
> things could be looked up:
>
>    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doxing
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
> @pigsonthewing
> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Banning real identities

Alphos OGame
Well, considering my life was already kind of in shambles beforehand, there
wasn't much more to be done, and I didn't risk much, but still, I valued my
privacy then - and still do.

I live in France with french citizenship, where I enjoy a rather
comfortable freedom of expression, but I'm also thinking of contributors in
less free countries who, despite being potentially despicable by
potentially deserving global bans, are also potentially being targets from
local authorities or groups of other sorts should their real identities be
ever divulged, not because of their global bans or the reasons thereof, but
because of their legitimate contributions to free culture and knowledge
(you know, what we *usually* do on the Wikimedia projects, other than
bicker on these mailing lists about whether or not the Wikimedia Foundation
should have done things differently).

The least information we give publicly about (current and former) members
of the community, the better. No matter whether we like them or not, even
if we absolutely despise them, even if they "deserve it" : they don't.
Even if they were one of my harassers, even if they lived in a free
country, I'd be sternly, strongly, and strictly against it.

Alphos

Le ven. 5 juil. 2019 à 13:52, Vi to <[hidden email]> a écrit :

> Putting it simple WMF/functionaries/the community itself should take the
> less invasive actions needed to protect themselves.
>
> A public list of "persona non grata" for events is needed for sure, but I
> don't see any practical need to have it publicly shared.
>
> Vito
>
> Il giorno ven 5 lug 2019 alle ore 13:41 Andy Mabbett <
> [hidden email]> ha scritto:
>
> > > Den fre. 5. jul. 2019 kl. 11.53 skrev Thomas Townsend <
> > [hidden email]
> >
> > > > You don;t explain why being "doxxed" was a bad thing for you, or
> > > > indeed what the downside is for anyone,  You simply assert that it is
> > > > a Bad Thing and must not happen.  Would you like to give your reasons
> > > > for those assertions?
> >
> > I lost my wallet to a pickpocket last week. Do I now need to give
> > reasons why this was a bad thing?
> >
> > Quite apart from the fact that you ignore the text "It may get them
> > jailed for the wrong reasons. It may get them harmed for their genuine
> > contributions."
> >
> > On Fri, 5 Jul 2019 at 12:25, Thyge <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > - and please explain the meaning of 'doxxed" as well. Is that US slang?
> >
> > If only there was some sort of free online encyclopedia, where such
> > things could be looked up:
> >
> >    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doxing
> >
> > --
> > Andy Mabbett
> > @pigsonthewing
> > http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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