[Wikimedia-l] Bitcoin now accepted, but there are privacy concerns

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[Wikimedia-l] Bitcoin now accepted, but there are privacy concerns

Pine W
There is a post on the blog saying that bitcoin is accepted but there are
several questions about why WMF is asking for contact info. Is that an IRS
requirement? Might want to post the reason in the blog entry. AFAIK with
the nonprofits I donate to none require personal info for small
contributions.

Thanks,
Pine
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Bitcoin now accepted, but there are privacy concerns

Steven Walling
On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 12:20 PM, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:

> There is a post on the blog saying that bitcoin is accepted but there are
> several questions about why WMF is asking for contact info. Is that an IRS
> requirement? Might want to post the reason in the blog entry. AFAIK with
> the nonprofits I donate to none require personal info for small
> contributions.
>
> Thanks,
> Pine
>

The relevant blog post, for context:
https://blog.wikimedia.org/2014/07/30/wikimedia-foundation-now-accepts-bitcoin/
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Bitcoin now accepted, but there are privacy concerns

Andrew Gray-3
In reply to this post by Pine W
Hi Pine,

The IRS link includes the note that:

"A payment made using virtual currency is subject to information
reporting to the same extent as any other payment made in property."

- no expert, but I suspect this is the explanation. Because the IRS
treat bitcoin as "property" (like, eg, shares) rather than currency,
it triggers different - and presumably more complex - reporting
requirements.

Andrew.

On 30 July 2014 20:20, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:

> There is a post on the blog saying that bitcoin is accepted but there are
> several questions about why WMF is asking for contact info. Is that an IRS
> requirement? Might want to post the reason in the blog entry. AFAIK with
> the nonprofits I donate to none require personal info for small
> contributions.
>
> Thanks,
> Pine
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>



--
- Andrew Gray
  [hidden email]

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Bitcoin now accepted, but there are privacy concerns

Pine W
Nonprofits in the US are only required to report major donors AFAIK.
Bitcoins aren't assets with more  complicated transfer rules like real
estate or stock shares. Simple property donations like a can of food for a
food bank don't require identification info.
Pine
On Jul 30, 2014 1:01 PM, "Andrew Gray" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Pine,
>
> The IRS link includes the note that:
>
> "A payment made using virtual currency is subject to information
> reporting to the same extent as any other payment made in property."
>
> - no expert, but I suspect this is the explanation. Because the IRS
> treat bitcoin as "property" (like, eg, shares) rather than currency,
> it triggers different - and presumably more complex - reporting
> requirements.
>
> Andrew.
>
> On 30 July 2014 20:20, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > There is a post on the blog saying that bitcoin is accepted but there are
> > several questions about why WMF is asking for contact info. Is that an
> IRS
> > requirement? Might want to post the reason in the blog entry. AFAIK with
> > the nonprofits I donate to none require personal info for small
> > contributions.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Pine
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
>
> --
> - Andrew Gray
>   [hidden email]
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Bitcoin now accepted, but there are privacy concerns

Lisa Gruwell
As Andrew said, it is complicated.  We decided that asking for the
information was the safest approach and best enables to comply with U.S.
laws as well as laws in other countries.  For example, we are required to
send a receipt for tax purposes to U.S. donors who give over a certain
amount and we have already today received gifts through bitcoin over that
threshold.


On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 1:22 PM, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Nonprofits in the US are only required to report major donors AFAIK.
> Bitcoins aren't assets with more  complicated transfer rules like real
> estate or stock shares. Simple property donations like a can of food for a
> food bank don't require identification info.
> Pine
> On Jul 30, 2014 1:01 PM, "Andrew Gray" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Hi Pine,
> >
> > The IRS link includes the note that:
> >
> > "A payment made using virtual currency is subject to information
> > reporting to the same extent as any other payment made in property."
> >
> > - no expert, but I suspect this is the explanation. Because the IRS
> > treat bitcoin as "property" (like, eg, shares) rather than currency,
> > it triggers different - and presumably more complex - reporting
> > requirements.
> >
> > Andrew.
> >
> > On 30 July 2014 20:20, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > There is a post on the blog saying that bitcoin is accepted but there
> are
> > > several questions about why WMF is asking for contact info. Is that an
> > IRS
> > > requirement? Might want to post the reason in the blog entry. AFAIK
> with
> > > the nonprofits I donate to none require personal info for small
> > > contributions.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Pine
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > - Andrew Gray
> >   [hidden email]
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Bitcoin now accepted, but there are privacy concerns

Pine W
Hi Lisa,

Hm, that is different from my understanding of the IRC. You are required to
offer a receipt, not to actually send one if the donor declines, right?
Then you could have a checkbox to disable personal info and the receipt.
You could also enable anonymous donations under $5000 or whatever the
threshold is for reporting the donor's info to the IRS, right?

Pine
On Jul 30, 2014 2:06 PM, "Lisa Gruwell" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> As Andrew said, it is complicated.  We decided that asking for the
> information was the safest approach and best enables to comply with U.S.
> laws as well as laws in other countries.  For example, we are required to
> send a receipt for tax purposes to U.S. donors who give over a certain
> amount and we have already today received gifts through bitcoin over that
> threshold.
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 1:22 PM, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Nonprofits in the US are only required to report major donors AFAIK.
> > Bitcoins aren't assets with more  complicated transfer rules like real
> > estate or stock shares. Simple property donations like a can of food for
> a
> > food bank don't require identification info.
> > Pine
> > On Jul 30, 2014 1:01 PM, "Andrew Gray" <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Pine,
> > >
> > > The IRS link includes the note that:
> > >
> > > "A payment made using virtual currency is subject to information
> > > reporting to the same extent as any other payment made in property."
> > >
> > > - no expert, but I suspect this is the explanation. Because the IRS
> > > treat bitcoin as "property" (like, eg, shares) rather than currency,
> > > it triggers different - and presumably more complex - reporting
> > > requirements.
> > >
> > > Andrew.
> > >
> > > On 30 July 2014 20:20, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > There is a post on the blog saying that bitcoin is accepted but there
> > are
> > > > several questions about why WMF is asking for contact info. Is that
> an
> > > IRS
> > > > requirement? Might want to post the reason in the blog entry. AFAIK
> > with
> > > > the nonprofits I donate to none require personal info for small
> > > > contributions.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Pine
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > - Andrew Gray
> > >   [hidden email]
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
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> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Bitcoin now accepted, but there are privacy concerns

Pete Forsyth-2
Pine, I think Lisa already answered your question -- it's complicated. It's
possible (based on my limited knowledge, anyway) that what you suggest is
possible; but she never said it was impossible. She said it was the safest
approach, given a complicated scenario. This is her professional expertise,
so we have to assume a basic level of competence to make those judgment
calls.

Don't we?
Pete
[[User:Peteforsyth]]


On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 2:14 PM, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Lisa,
>
> Hm, that is different from my understanding of the IRC. You are required to
> offer a receipt, not to actually send one if the donor declines, right?
> Then you could have a checkbox to disable personal info and the receipt.
> You could also enable anonymous donations under $5000 or whatever the
> threshold is for reporting the donor's info to the IRS, right?
>
> Pine
> On Jul 30, 2014 2:06 PM, "Lisa Gruwell" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > As Andrew said, it is complicated.  We decided that asking for the
> > information was the safest approach and best enables to comply with U.S.
> > laws as well as laws in other countries.  For example, we are required to
> > send a receipt for tax purposes to U.S. donors who give over a certain
> > amount and we have already today received gifts through bitcoin over that
> > threshold.
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 1:22 PM, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > Nonprofits in the US are only required to report major donors AFAIK.
> > > Bitcoins aren't assets with more  complicated transfer rules like real
> > > estate or stock shares. Simple property donations like a can of food
> for
> > a
> > > food bank don't require identification info.
> > > Pine
> > > On Jul 30, 2014 1:01 PM, "Andrew Gray" <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi Pine,
> > > >
> > > > The IRS link includes the note that:
> > > >
> > > > "A payment made using virtual currency is subject to information
> > > > reporting to the same extent as any other payment made in property."
> > > >
> > > > - no expert, but I suspect this is the explanation. Because the IRS
> > > > treat bitcoin as "property" (like, eg, shares) rather than currency,
> > > > it triggers different - and presumably more complex - reporting
> > > > requirements.
> > > >
> > > > Andrew.
> > > >
> > > > On 30 July 2014 20:20, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > > There is a post on the blog saying that bitcoin is accepted but
> there
> > > are
> > > > > several questions about why WMF is asking for contact info. Is that
> > an
> > > > IRS
> > > > > requirement? Might want to post the reason in the blog entry. AFAIK
> > > with
> > > > > the nonprofits I donate to none require personal info for small
> > > > > contributions.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > Pine
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > - Andrew Gray
> > > >   [hidden email]
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Bitcoin now accepted, but there are privacy concerns

Pine W
In the crowdsourced world, I like to think that we evaluate ideas and
programs based on their merits rather than who makes a decision. I grant
that some heirarchy is good and necessary, and in this case the heirarchy
made a reasoned decision to include Bitcoin in the donation options, and
did so in a way that makes a lot of sense except that one of the primary
attractions of Bitcoin, privacy, seems to have not been a priority. I'm
asking about how this can be addressed. It's possible that WMF can't offer
to accept anonymous bitcoin donations at all, but as an optimist I like to
think that it can, and my experience with other nonprofits is that
anonymous donations are possible.

Pine
On Jul 30, 2014 2:26 PM, "Pete Forsyth" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Pine, I think Lisa already answered your question -- it's complicated. It's
> possible (based on my limited knowledge, anyway) that what you suggest is
> possible; but she never said it was impossible. She said it was the safest
> approach, given a complicated scenario. This is her professional expertise,
> so we have to assume a basic level of competence to make those judgment
> calls.
>
> Don't we?
> Pete
> [[User:Peteforsyth]]
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 2:14 PM, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Hi Lisa,
> >
> > Hm, that is different from my understanding of the IRC. You are required
> to
> > offer a receipt, not to actually send one if the donor declines, right?
> > Then you could have a checkbox to disable personal info and the receipt.
> > You could also enable anonymous donations under $5000 or whatever the
> > threshold is for reporting the donor's info to the IRS, right?
> >
> > Pine
> > On Jul 30, 2014 2:06 PM, "Lisa Gruwell" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > As Andrew said, it is complicated.  We decided that asking for the
> > > information was the safest approach and best enables to comply with
> U.S.
> > > laws as well as laws in other countries.  For example, we are required
> to
> > > send a receipt for tax purposes to U.S. donors who give over a certain
> > > amount and we have already today received gifts through bitcoin over
> that
> > > threshold.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 1:22 PM, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Nonprofits in the US are only required to report major donors AFAIK.
> > > > Bitcoins aren't assets with more  complicated transfer rules like
> real
> > > > estate or stock shares. Simple property donations like a can of food
> > for
> > > a
> > > > food bank don't require identification info.
> > > > Pine
> > > > On Jul 30, 2014 1:01 PM, "Andrew Gray" <[hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi Pine,
> > > > >
> > > > > The IRS link includes the note that:
> > > > >
> > > > > "A payment made using virtual currency is subject to information
> > > > > reporting to the same extent as any other payment made in
> property."
> > > > >
> > > > > - no expert, but I suspect this is the explanation. Because the IRS
> > > > > treat bitcoin as "property" (like, eg, shares) rather than
> currency,
> > > > > it triggers different - and presumably more complex - reporting
> > > > > requirements.
> > > > >
> > > > > Andrew.
> > > > >
> > > > > On 30 July 2014 20:20, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > > > There is a post on the blog saying that bitcoin is accepted but
> > there
> > > > are
> > > > > > several questions about why WMF is asking for contact info. Is
> that
> > > an
> > > > > IRS
> > > > > > requirement? Might want to post the reason in the blog entry.
> AFAIK
> > > > with
> > > > > > the nonprofits I donate to none require personal info for small
> > > > > > contributions.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > Pine
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > - Andrew Gray
> > > > >   [hidden email]
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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> >
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Bitcoin now accepted, but there are privacy concerns

Pete Forsyth-2
Sure -- I think it's a perfectly legitimate question to ask, and reasonable
discussion to have. It just appeared to me that you were expecting a
detailed explanation from the chief revenue officer, which didn't seem like
a reasonable expectation. Maybe I was wrong though. If others want to use
this list to debate the finer points of US tax law and effective privacy
practices for donations, I won't be the one standing in the way :)

Pete


On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 2:39 PM, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:

> In the crowdsourced world, I like to think that we evaluate ideas and
> programs based on their merits rather than who makes a decision. I grant
> that some heirarchy is good and necessary, and in this case the heirarchy
> made a reasoned decision to include Bitcoin in the donation options, and
> did so in a way that makes a lot of sense except that one of the primary
> attractions of Bitcoin, privacy, seems to have not been a priority. I'm
> asking about how this can be addressed. It's possible that WMF can't offer
> to accept anonymous bitcoin donations at all, but as an optimist I like to
> think that it can, and my experience with other nonprofits is that
> anonymous donations are possible.
>
> Pine
> On Jul 30, 2014 2:26 PM, "Pete Forsyth" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Pine, I think Lisa already answered your question -- it's complicated.
> It's
> > possible (based on my limited knowledge, anyway) that what you suggest is
> > possible; but she never said it was impossible. She said it was the
> safest
> > approach, given a complicated scenario. This is her professional
> expertise,
> > so we have to assume a basic level of competence to make those judgment
> > calls.
> >
> > Don't we?
> > Pete
> > [[User:Peteforsyth]]
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 2:14 PM, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Lisa,
> > >
> > > Hm, that is different from my understanding of the IRC. You are
> required
> > to
> > > offer a receipt, not to actually send one if the donor declines, right?
> > > Then you could have a checkbox to disable personal info and the
> receipt.
> > > You could also enable anonymous donations under $5000 or whatever the
> > > threshold is for reporting the donor's info to the IRS, right?
> > >
> > > Pine
> > > On Jul 30, 2014 2:06 PM, "Lisa Gruwell" <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > As Andrew said, it is complicated.  We decided that asking for the
> > > > information was the safest approach and best enables to comply with
> > U.S.
> > > > laws as well as laws in other countries.  For example, we are
> required
> > to
> > > > send a receipt for tax purposes to U.S. donors who give over a
> certain
> > > > amount and we have already today received gifts through bitcoin over
> > that
> > > > threshold.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 1:22 PM, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Nonprofits in the US are only required to report major donors
> AFAIK.
> > > > > Bitcoins aren't assets with more  complicated transfer rules like
> > real
> > > > > estate or stock shares. Simple property donations like a can of
> food
> > > for
> > > > a
> > > > > food bank don't require identification info.
> > > > > Pine
> > > > > On Jul 30, 2014 1:01 PM, "Andrew Gray" <[hidden email]>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Pine,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The IRS link includes the note that:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "A payment made using virtual currency is subject to information
> > > > > > reporting to the same extent as any other payment made in
> > property."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > - no expert, but I suspect this is the explanation. Because the
> IRS
> > > > > > treat bitcoin as "property" (like, eg, shares) rather than
> > currency,
> > > > > > it triggers different - and presumably more complex - reporting
> > > > > > requirements.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Andrew.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 30 July 2014 20:20, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > > > > There is a post on the blog saying that bitcoin is accepted but
> > > there
> > > > > are
> > > > > > > several questions about why WMF is asking for contact info. Is
> > that
> > > > an
> > > > > > IRS
> > > > > > > requirement? Might want to post the reason in the blog entry.
> > AFAIK
> > > > > with
> > > > > > > the nonprofits I donate to none require personal info for small
> > > > > > > contributions.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > Pine
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > - Andrew Gray
> > > > > >   [hidden email]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
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> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Bitcoin now accepted, but there are privacy concerns

Pine W
Heh. If this discussion gets too technical we can move it off-list. At the
moment if Fundraising just wants to say "we'll work on this for future
improvenents to the Bitcoin donation system" and posting that statement in
the blog entry and the donation screen would be ok IMO.

I am rarely satisfied with "it's complicated" as an answer to anything. (:

Pine
 On Jul 30, 2014 2:47 PM, "Pete Forsyth" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Sure -- I think it's a perfectly legitimate question to ask, and reasonable
> discussion to have. It just appeared to me that you were expecting a
> detailed explanation from the chief revenue officer, which didn't seem like
> a reasonable expectation. Maybe I was wrong though. If others want to use
> this list to debate the finer points of US tax law and effective privacy
> practices for donations, I won't be the one standing in the way :)
>
> Pete
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 2:39 PM, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > In the crowdsourced world, I like to think that we evaluate ideas and
> > programs based on their merits rather than who makes a decision. I grant
> > that some heirarchy is good and necessary, and in this case the heirarchy
> > made a reasoned decision to include Bitcoin in the donation options, and
> > did so in a way that makes a lot of sense except that one of the primary
> > attractions of Bitcoin, privacy, seems to have not been a priority. I'm
> > asking about how this can be addressed. It's possible that WMF can't
> offer
> > to accept anonymous bitcoin donations at all, but as an optimist I like
> to
> > think that it can, and my experience with other nonprofits is that
> > anonymous donations are possible.
> >
> > Pine
> > On Jul 30, 2014 2:26 PM, "Pete Forsyth" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > Pine, I think Lisa already answered your question -- it's complicated.
> > It's
> > > possible (based on my limited knowledge, anyway) that what you suggest
> is
> > > possible; but she never said it was impossible. She said it was the
> > safest
> > > approach, given a complicated scenario. This is her professional
> > expertise,
> > > so we have to assume a basic level of competence to make those judgment
> > > calls.
> > >
> > > Don't we?
> > > Pete
> > > [[User:Peteforsyth]]
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 2:14 PM, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi Lisa,
> > > >
> > > > Hm, that is different from my understanding of the IRC. You are
> > required
> > > to
> > > > offer a receipt, not to actually send one if the donor declines,
> right?
> > > > Then you could have a checkbox to disable personal info and the
> > receipt.
> > > > You could also enable anonymous donations under $5000 or whatever the
> > > > threshold is for reporting the donor's info to the IRS, right?
> > > >
> > > > Pine
> > > > On Jul 30, 2014 2:06 PM, "Lisa Gruwell" <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > As Andrew said, it is complicated.  We decided that asking for the
> > > > > information was the safest approach and best enables to comply with
> > > U.S.
> > > > > laws as well as laws in other countries.  For example, we are
> > required
> > > to
> > > > > send a receipt for tax purposes to U.S. donors who give over a
> > certain
> > > > > amount and we have already today received gifts through bitcoin
> over
> > > that
> > > > > threshold.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 1:22 PM, Pine W <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Nonprofits in the US are only required to report major donors
> > AFAIK.
> > > > > > Bitcoins aren't assets with more  complicated transfer rules like
> > > real
> > > > > > estate or stock shares. Simple property donations like a can of
> > food
> > > > for
> > > > > a
> > > > > > food bank don't require identification info.
> > > > > > Pine
> > > > > > On Jul 30, 2014 1:01 PM, "Andrew Gray" <
> [hidden email]>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi Pine,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The IRS link includes the note that:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "A payment made using virtual currency is subject to
> information
> > > > > > > reporting to the same extent as any other payment made in
> > > property."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > - no expert, but I suspect this is the explanation. Because the
> > IRS
> > > > > > > treat bitcoin as "property" (like, eg, shares) rather than
> > > currency,
> > > > > > > it triggers different - and presumably more complex - reporting
> > > > > > > requirements.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Andrew.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On 30 July 2014 20:20, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > > > > > There is a post on the blog saying that bitcoin is accepted
> but
> > > > there
> > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > several questions about why WMF is asking for contact info.
> Is
> > > that
> > > > > an
> > > > > > > IRS
> > > > > > > > requirement? Might want to post the reason in the blog entry.
> > > AFAIK
> > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > the nonprofits I donate to none require personal info for
> small
> > > > > > > > contributions.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > > Pine
> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> > > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > - Andrew Gray
> > > > > > >   [hidden email]
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> > > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Bitcoin now accepted, but there are privacy concerns

Lisa Gruwell
Hi Pine-

The threshold is an aggregate limit in a calendar year.  If we were to
limit the donation amount to under $5000, a person could give several
donations that totaled over $5000 in a single year (which happens) and then
we would not be compliance.  Instead of trying to create a spike for every
scenario like this, we find it safest just to ask for the information.

Best,
Lisa


On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 2:57 PM, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Heh. If this discussion gets too technical we can move it off-list. At the
> moment if Fundraising just wants to say "we'll work on this for future
> improvenents to the Bitcoin donation system" and posting that statement in
> the blog entry and the donation screen would be ok IMO.
>
> I am rarely satisfied with "it's complicated" as an answer to anything. (:
>
> Pine
>  On Jul 30, 2014 2:47 PM, "Pete Forsyth" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Sure -- I think it's a perfectly legitimate question to ask, and
> reasonable
> > discussion to have. It just appeared to me that you were expecting a
> > detailed explanation from the chief revenue officer, which didn't seem
> like
> > a reasonable expectation. Maybe I was wrong though. If others want to use
> > this list to debate the finer points of US tax law and effective privacy
> > practices for donations, I won't be the one standing in the way :)
> >
> > Pete
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 2:39 PM, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > In the crowdsourced world, I like to think that we evaluate ideas and
> > > programs based on their merits rather than who makes a decision. I
> grant
> > > that some heirarchy is good and necessary, and in this case the
> heirarchy
> > > made a reasoned decision to include Bitcoin in the donation options,
> and
> > > did so in a way that makes a lot of sense except that one of the
> primary
> > > attractions of Bitcoin, privacy, seems to have not been a priority. I'm
> > > asking about how this can be addressed. It's possible that WMF can't
> > offer
> > > to accept anonymous bitcoin donations at all, but as an optimist I like
> > to
> > > think that it can, and my experience with other nonprofits is that
> > > anonymous donations are possible.
> > >
> > > Pine
> > > On Jul 30, 2014 2:26 PM, "Pete Forsyth" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Pine, I think Lisa already answered your question -- it's
> complicated.
> > > It's
> > > > possible (based on my limited knowledge, anyway) that what you
> suggest
> > is
> > > > possible; but she never said it was impossible. She said it was the
> > > safest
> > > > approach, given a complicated scenario. This is her professional
> > > expertise,
> > > > so we have to assume a basic level of competence to make those
> judgment
> > > > calls.
> > > >
> > > > Don't we?
> > > > Pete
> > > > [[User:Peteforsyth]]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 2:14 PM, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi Lisa,
> > > > >
> > > > > Hm, that is different from my understanding of the IRC. You are
> > > required
> > > > to
> > > > > offer a receipt, not to actually send one if the donor declines,
> > right?
> > > > > Then you could have a checkbox to disable personal info and the
> > > receipt.
> > > > > You could also enable anonymous donations under $5000 or whatever
> the
> > > > > threshold is for reporting the donor's info to the IRS, right?
> > > > >
> > > > > Pine
> > > > > On Jul 30, 2014 2:06 PM, "Lisa Gruwell" <[hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > As Andrew said, it is complicated.  We decided that asking for
> the
> > > > > > information was the safest approach and best enables to comply
> with
> > > > U.S.
> > > > > > laws as well as laws in other countries.  For example, we are
> > > required
> > > > to
> > > > > > send a receipt for tax purposes to U.S. donors who give over a
> > > certain
> > > > > > amount and we have already today received gifts through bitcoin
> > over
> > > > that
> > > > > > threshold.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 1:22 PM, Pine W <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Nonprofits in the US are only required to report major donors
> > > AFAIK.
> > > > > > > Bitcoins aren't assets with more  complicated transfer rules
> like
> > > > real
> > > > > > > estate or stock shares. Simple property donations like a can of
> > > food
> > > > > for
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > food bank don't require identification info.
> > > > > > > Pine
> > > > > > > On Jul 30, 2014 1:01 PM, "Andrew Gray" <
> > [hidden email]>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Hi Pine,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The IRS link includes the note that:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "A payment made using virtual currency is subject to
> > information
> > > > > > > > reporting to the same extent as any other payment made in
> > > > property."
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > - no expert, but I suspect this is the explanation. Because
> the
> > > IRS
> > > > > > > > treat bitcoin as "property" (like, eg, shares) rather than
> > > > currency,
> > > > > > > > it triggers different - and presumably more complex -
> reporting
> > > > > > > > requirements.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Andrew.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On 30 July 2014 20:20, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > There is a post on the blog saying that bitcoin is accepted
> > but
> > > > > there
> > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > several questions about why WMF is asking for contact info.
> > Is
> > > > that
> > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > IRS
> > > > > > > > > requirement? Might want to post the reason in the blog
> entry.
> > > > AFAIK
> > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > the nonprofits I donate to none require personal info for
> > small
> > > > > > > > > contributions.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > > > Pine
> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > > > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> > > > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > - Andrew Gray
> > > > > > > >   [hidden email]
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> > > > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> > > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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> > > [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
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> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Bitcoin now accepted, but there are privacy concerns

Pine W
Hi Lisa,
Thank you for the explanation. Can you post that in the blog entry and on
the donation page? I understand how calculating annual limits might be more
trouble than it's worth from WMF's point of view.
Thanks,
Pine


On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 3:15 PM, Lisa Gruwell <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hi Pine-
>
> The threshold is an aggregate limit in a calendar year.  If we were to
> limit the donation amount to under $5000, a person could give several
> donations that totaled over $5000 in a single year (which happens) and then
> we would not be compliance.  Instead of trying to create a spike for every
> scenario like this, we find it safest just to ask for the information.
>
> Best,
> Lisa
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 2:57 PM, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Heh. If this discussion gets too technical we can move it off-list. At
> the
> > moment if Fundraising just wants to say "we'll work on this for future
> > improvenents to the Bitcoin donation system" and posting that statement
> in
> > the blog entry and the donation screen would be ok IMO.
> >
> > I am rarely satisfied with "it's complicated" as an answer to anything.
> (:
> >
> > Pine
> >  On Jul 30, 2014 2:47 PM, "Pete Forsyth" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > Sure -- I think it's a perfectly legitimate question to ask, and
> > reasonable
> > > discussion to have. It just appeared to me that you were expecting a
> > > detailed explanation from the chief revenue officer, which didn't seem
> > like
> > > a reasonable expectation. Maybe I was wrong though. If others want to
> use
> > > this list to debate the finer points of US tax law and effective
> privacy
> > > practices for donations, I won't be the one standing in the way :)
> > >
> > > Pete
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 2:39 PM, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > In the crowdsourced world, I like to think that we evaluate ideas and
> > > > programs based on their merits rather than who makes a decision. I
> > grant
> > > > that some heirarchy is good and necessary, and in this case the
> > heirarchy
> > > > made a reasoned decision to include Bitcoin in the donation options,
> > and
> > > > did so in a way that makes a lot of sense except that one of the
> > primary
> > > > attractions of Bitcoin, privacy, seems to have not been a priority.
> I'm
> > > > asking about how this can be addressed. It's possible that WMF can't
> > > offer
> > > > to accept anonymous bitcoin donations at all, but as an optimist I
> like
> > > to
> > > > think that it can, and my experience with other nonprofits is that
> > > > anonymous donations are possible.
> > > >
> > > > Pine
> > > > On Jul 30, 2014 2:26 PM, "Pete Forsyth" <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Pine, I think Lisa already answered your question -- it's
> > complicated.
> > > > It's
> > > > > possible (based on my limited knowledge, anyway) that what you
> > suggest
> > > is
> > > > > possible; but she never said it was impossible. She said it was the
> > > > safest
> > > > > approach, given a complicated scenario. This is her professional
> > > > expertise,
> > > > > so we have to assume a basic level of competence to make those
> > judgment
> > > > > calls.
> > > > >
> > > > > Don't we?
> > > > > Pete
> > > > > [[User:Peteforsyth]]
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 2:14 PM, Pine W <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Lisa,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hm, that is different from my understanding of the IRC. You are
> > > > required
> > > > > to
> > > > > > offer a receipt, not to actually send one if the donor declines,
> > > right?
> > > > > > Then you could have a checkbox to disable personal info and the
> > > > receipt.
> > > > > > You could also enable anonymous donations under $5000 or whatever
> > the
> > > > > > threshold is for reporting the donor's info to the IRS, right?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Pine
> > > > > > On Jul 30, 2014 2:06 PM, "Lisa Gruwell" <[hidden email]>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > As Andrew said, it is complicated.  We decided that asking for
> > the
> > > > > > > information was the safest approach and best enables to comply
> > with
> > > > > U.S.
> > > > > > > laws as well as laws in other countries.  For example, we are
> > > > required
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > send a receipt for tax purposes to U.S. donors who give over a
> > > > certain
> > > > > > > amount and we have already today received gifts through bitcoin
> > > over
> > > > > that
> > > > > > > threshold.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 1:22 PM, Pine W <[hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Nonprofits in the US are only required to report major donors
> > > > AFAIK.
> > > > > > > > Bitcoins aren't assets with more  complicated transfer rules
> > like
> > > > > real
> > > > > > > > estate or stock shares. Simple property donations like a can
> of
> > > > food
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > food bank don't require identification info.
> > > > > > > > Pine
> > > > > > > > On Jul 30, 2014 1:01 PM, "Andrew Gray" <
> > > [hidden email]>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Hi Pine,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The IRS link includes the note that:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "A payment made using virtual currency is subject to
> > > information
> > > > > > > > > reporting to the same extent as any other payment made in
> > > > > property."
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > - no expert, but I suspect this is the explanation. Because
> > the
> > > > IRS
> > > > > > > > > treat bitcoin as "property" (like, eg, shares) rather than
> > > > > currency,
> > > > > > > > > it triggers different - and presumably more complex -
> > reporting
> > > > > > > > > requirements.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Andrew.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On 30 July 2014 20:20, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > There is a post on the blog saying that bitcoin is
> accepted
> > > but
> > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > several questions about why WMF is asking for contact
> info.
> > > Is
> > > > > that
> > > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > IRS
> > > > > > > > > > requirement? Might want to post the reason in the blog
> > entry.
> > > > > AFAIK
> > > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > > the nonprofits I donate to none require personal info for
> > > small
> > > > > > > > > > contributions.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > > > > Pine
> > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > > > > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> > > > > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > - Andrew Gray
> > > > > > > > >   [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > > > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> > > > > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> > > > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> > > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Bitcoin now accepted, but there are privacy concerns

Mark
In reply to this post by Lisa Gruwell
Hi Lisa,

I admit I am not an expert in U.S. tax law, so I could be entirely
misinterpreting it. But my read of the IRS instructions are that donors
who donate more than $5000 in one year must be reported, *except* that
any single donation of less than $1000 may be discounted when
calculating this total. This seems to be a provision to reduce
compliance costs, so small donations don't have to be tracked when
determining when a donor has donated more than $5000 in a year.

Does that mean Wikimedia could accept donations of less than $1000
without asking for personal information?

Best,
Mark


On 7/31/14, 12:15 AM, Lisa Gruwell wrote:

> Hi Pine-
>
> The threshold is an aggregate limit in a calendar year.  If we were to
> limit the donation amount to under $5000, a person could give several
> donations that totaled over $5000 in a single year (which happens) and then
> we would not be compliance.  Instead of trying to create a spike for every
> scenario like this, we find it safest just to ask for the information.
>
> Best,
> Lisa
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 2:57 PM, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Heh. If this discussion gets too technical we can move it off-list. At the
>> moment if Fundraising just wants to say "we'll work on this for future
>> improvenents to the Bitcoin donation system" and posting that statement in
>> the blog entry and the donation screen would be ok IMO.
>>
>> I am rarely satisfied with "it's complicated" as an answer to anything. (:
>>
>> Pine
>>   On Jul 30, 2014 2:47 PM, "Pete Forsyth" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> Sure -- I think it's a perfectly legitimate question to ask, and
>> reasonable
>>> discussion to have. It just appeared to me that you were expecting a
>>> detailed explanation from the chief revenue officer, which didn't seem
>> like
>>> a reasonable expectation. Maybe I was wrong though. If others want to use
>>> this list to debate the finer points of US tax law and effective privacy
>>> practices for donations, I won't be the one standing in the way :)
>>>
>>> Pete
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 2:39 PM, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In the crowdsourced world, I like to think that we evaluate ideas and
>>>> programs based on their merits rather than who makes a decision. I
>> grant
>>>> that some heirarchy is good and necessary, and in this case the
>> heirarchy
>>>> made a reasoned decision to include Bitcoin in the donation options,
>> and
>>>> did so in a way that makes a lot of sense except that one of the
>> primary
>>>> attractions of Bitcoin, privacy, seems to have not been a priority. I'm
>>>> asking about how this can be addressed. It's possible that WMF can't
>>> offer
>>>> to accept anonymous bitcoin donations at all, but as an optimist I like
>>> to
>>>> think that it can, and my experience with other nonprofits is that
>>>> anonymous donations are possible.
>>>>
>>>> Pine
>>>> On Jul 30, 2014 2:26 PM, "Pete Forsyth" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Pine, I think Lisa already answered your question -- it's
>> complicated.
>>>> It's
>>>>> possible (based on my limited knowledge, anyway) that what you
>> suggest
>>> is
>>>>> possible; but she never said it was impossible. She said it was the
>>>> safest
>>>>> approach, given a complicated scenario. This is her professional
>>>> expertise,
>>>>> so we have to assume a basic level of competence to make those
>> judgment
>>>>> calls.
>>>>>
>>>>> Don't we?
>>>>> Pete
>>>>> [[User:Peteforsyth]]
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 2:14 PM, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Lisa,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hm, that is different from my understanding of the IRC. You are
>>>> required
>>>>> to
>>>>>> offer a receipt, not to actually send one if the donor declines,
>>> right?
>>>>>> Then you could have a checkbox to disable personal info and the
>>>> receipt.
>>>>>> You could also enable anonymous donations under $5000 or whatever
>> the
>>>>>> threshold is for reporting the donor's info to the IRS, right?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Pine
>>>>>> On Jul 30, 2014 2:06 PM, "Lisa Gruwell" <[hidden email]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> As Andrew said, it is complicated.  We decided that asking for
>> the
>>>>>>> information was the safest approach and best enables to comply
>> with
>>>>> U.S.
>>>>>>> laws as well as laws in other countries.  For example, we are
>>>> required
>>>>> to
>>>>>>> send a receipt for tax purposes to U.S. donors who give over a
>>>> certain
>>>>>>> amount and we have already today received gifts through bitcoin
>>> over
>>>>> that
>>>>>>> threshold.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 1:22 PM, Pine W <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Nonprofits in the US are only required to report major donors
>>>> AFAIK.
>>>>>>>> Bitcoins aren't assets with more  complicated transfer rules
>> like
>>>>> real
>>>>>>>> estate or stock shares. Simple property donations like a can of
>>>> food
>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> food bank don't require identification info.
>>>>>>>> Pine
>>>>>>>> On Jul 30, 2014 1:01 PM, "Andrew Gray" <
>>> [hidden email]>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Hi Pine,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The IRS link includes the note that:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "A payment made using virtual currency is subject to
>>> information
>>>>>>>>> reporting to the same extent as any other payment made in
>>>>> property."
>>>>>>>>> - no expert, but I suspect this is the explanation. Because
>> the
>>>> IRS
>>>>>>>>> treat bitcoin as "property" (like, eg, shares) rather than
>>>>> currency,
>>>>>>>>> it triggers different - and presumably more complex -
>> reporting
>>>>>>>>> requirements.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Andrew.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 30 July 2014 20:20, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> There is a post on the blog saying that bitcoin is accepted
>>> but
>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>> several questions about why WMF is asking for contact info.
>>> Is
>>>>> that
>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>>> IRS
>>>>>>>>>> requirement? Might want to post the reason in the blog
>> entry.
>>>>> AFAIK
>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>> the nonprofits I donate to none require personal info for
>>> small
>>>>>>>>>> contributions.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>> Pine
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>>>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>>>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>>>>> Unsubscribe:
>>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]
>>>>> ?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> - Andrew Gray
>>>>>>>>>    [hidden email]
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>>>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>>>> Unsubscribe:
>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]
>>>>> ?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>>> Unsubscribe:
>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>>>>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]
>>>> ?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>> Unsubscribe:
>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>>>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]
>>> ?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>> Unsubscribe:
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]
>> ?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> Unsubscribe:
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>> [hidden email]
>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>> [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Bitcoin now accepted, but there are privacy concerns

Chris Keating-2
In that case how would the Foundation tell if someone made a number of
donations of under $1k that were declarable in aggregate?
Hi Lisa,

I admit I am not an expert in U.S. tax law, so I could be entirely
misinterpreting it. But my read of the IRS instructions are that donors who
donate more than $5000 in one year must be reported, *except* that any
single donation of less than $1000 may be discounted when calculating this
total. This seems to be a provision to reduce compliance costs, so small
donations don't have to be tracked when determining when a donor has
donated more than $5000 in a year.

Does that mean Wikimedia could accept donations of less than $1000 without
asking for personal information?

Best,
Mark


On 7/31/14, 12:15 AM, Lisa Gruwell wrote:

> Hi Pine-
>
> The threshold is an aggregate limit in a calendar year.  If we were to
> limit the donation amount to under $5000, a person could give several
> donations that totaled over $5000 in a single year (which happens) and then
> we would not be compliance.  Instead of trying to create a spike for every
> scenario like this, we find it safest just to ask for the information.
>
> Best,
> Lisa
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 2:57 PM, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>  Heh. If this discussion gets too technical we can move it off-list. At the
>> moment if Fundraising just wants to say "we'll work on this for future
>> improvenents to the Bitcoin donation system" and posting that statement in
>> the blog entry and the donation screen would be ok IMO.
>>
>> I am rarely satisfied with "it's complicated" as an answer to anything. (:
>>
>> Pine
>>   On Jul 30, 2014 2:47 PM, "Pete Forsyth" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>  Sure -- I think it's a perfectly legitimate question to ask, and
>>>
>> reasonable
>>
>>> discussion to have. It just appeared to me that you were expecting a
>>> detailed explanation from the chief revenue officer, which didn't seem
>>>
>> like
>>
>>> a reasonable expectation. Maybe I was wrong though. If others want to use
>>> this list to debate the finer points of US tax law and effective privacy
>>> practices for donations, I won't be the one standing in the way :)
>>>
>>> Pete
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 2:39 PM, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>  In the crowdsourced world, I like to think that we evaluate ideas and
>>>> programs based on their merits rather than who makes a decision. I
>>>>
>>> grant
>>
>>> that some heirarchy is good and necessary, and in this case the
>>>>
>>> heirarchy
>>
>>> made a reasoned decision to include Bitcoin in the donation options,
>>>>
>>> and
>>
>>> did so in a way that makes a lot of sense except that one of the
>>>>
>>> primary
>>
>>> attractions of Bitcoin, privacy, seems to have not been a priority. I'm
>>>> asking about how this can be addressed. It's possible that WMF can't
>>>>
>>> offer
>>>
>>>> to accept anonymous bitcoin donations at all, but as an optimist I like
>>>>
>>> to
>>>
>>>> think that it can, and my experience with other nonprofits is that
>>>> anonymous donations are possible.
>>>>
>>>> Pine
>>>> On Jul 30, 2014 2:26 PM, "Pete Forsyth" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  Pine, I think Lisa already answered your question -- it's
>>>>>
>>>> complicated.
>>
>>> It's
>>>>
>>>>> possible (based on my limited knowledge, anyway) that what you
>>>>>
>>>> suggest
>>
>>> is
>>>
>>>> possible; but she never said it was impossible. She said it was the
>>>>>
>>>> safest
>>>>
>>>>> approach, given a complicated scenario. This is her professional
>>>>>
>>>> expertise,
>>>>
>>>>> so we have to assume a basic level of competence to make those
>>>>>
>>>> judgment
>>
>>> calls.
>>>>>
>>>>> Don't we?
>>>>> Pete
>>>>> [[User:Peteforsyth]]
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 2:14 PM, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>  Hi Lisa,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hm, that is different from my understanding of the IRC. You are
>>>>>>
>>>>> required
>>>>
>>>>> to
>>>>>
>>>>>> offer a receipt, not to actually send one if the donor declines,
>>>>>>
>>>>> right?
>>>
>>>> Then you could have a checkbox to disable personal info and the
>>>>>>
>>>>> receipt.
>>>>
>>>>> You could also enable anonymous donations under $5000 or whatever
>>>>>>
>>>>> the
>>
>>> threshold is for reporting the donor's info to the IRS, right?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Pine
>>>>>> On Jul 30, 2014 2:06 PM, "Lisa Gruwell" <[hidden email]>
>>>>>>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> As Andrew said, it is complicated.  We decided that asking for
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> the
>>
>>> information was the safest approach and best enables to comply
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> with
>>
>>> U.S.
>>>>>
>>>>>> laws as well as laws in other countries.  For example, we are
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> required
>>>>
>>>>> to
>>>>>
>>>>>> send a receipt for tax purposes to U.S. donors who give over a
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> certain
>>>>
>>>>> amount and we have already today received gifts through bitcoin
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> over
>>>
>>>> that
>>>>>
>>>>>> threshold.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 1:22 PM, Pine W <[hidden email]>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Nonprofits in the US are only required to report major donors
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> AFAIK.
>>>>
>>>>> Bitcoins aren't assets with more  complicated transfer rules
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> like
>>
>>> real
>>>>>
>>>>>> estate or stock shares. Simple property donations like a can of
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> food
>>>>
>>>>> for
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> food bank don't require identification info.
>>>>>>>> Pine
>>>>>>>> On Jul 30, 2014 1:01 PM, "Andrew Gray" <
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [hidden email]>
>>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Pine,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The IRS link includes the note that:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "A payment made using virtual currency is subject to
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> information
>>>
>>>> reporting to the same extent as any other payment made in
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> property."
>>>>>
>>>>>> - no expert, but I suspect this is the explanation. Because
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> the
>>
>>> IRS
>>>>
>>>>> treat bitcoin as "property" (like, eg, shares) rather than
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> currency,
>>>>>
>>>>>> it triggers different - and presumably more complex -
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> reporting
>>
>>> requirements.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Andrew.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 30 July 2014 20:20, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There is a post on the blog saying that bitcoin is accepted
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> but
>>>
>>>> there
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> several questions about why WMF is asking for contact info.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Is
>>>
>>>> that
>>>>>
>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> IRS
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> requirement? Might want to post the reason in the blog
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> entry.
>>
>>> AFAIK
>>>>>
>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> the nonprofits I donate to none require personal info for
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> small
>>>
>>>> contributions.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>> Pine
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>>>>> Unsubscribe:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> - Andrew Gray
>>>>>>>>>    [hidden email]
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Bitcoin now accepted, but there are privacy concerns

David Gerard-2
On 31 July 2014 15:00, Chris Keating <[hidden email]> wrote:

> In that case how would the Foundation tell if someone made a number of
> donations of under $1k that were declarable in aggregate?


They couldn't, obviously.

I find myself unsurprised that, after finally getting the validation
they've been after for years, the *very first* thing the Bitcoin
advocates do is ... complain.


- d.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Bitcoin now accepted, but there are privacy concerns

Liam Wyatt
On 31 July 2014 16:17, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 31 July 2014 15:00, Chris Keating <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > In that case how would the Foundation tell if someone made a number of
> > donations of under $1k that were declarable in aggregate?
>
>
> They couldn't, obviously.
>
> I find myself unsurprised that, after finally getting the validation
> they've been after for years, the *very first* thing the Bitcoin
> advocates do is ... complain.
>
> - d.


Agreed. I do find it dispiriting that a feature that has been vociferously
requested by a group for a while has been greeted with "it's not good
enough, you didn't do it right" rather than "Thank you for responding to
our request. Here's a request for how we'd like it modified".
I personally am not interested in donating by BitCoin but obviously some
are - well done to the WMF for taking the effort to address the needs of
this particular community.

Perhaps, on the BitCoin donation page where the personal information is
being requested the WMF could edit the footer to include a link to a policy
page that describes why they are asking for the info.
Currently BitCoin donation page footer says this:

Cancel and return to Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.
<https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Ways_to_Give?customer%5Bemail%5D=&customer%5Bshipping_address%5D%5B%5D=%2C++&order%5Bbutton%5D%5Bdescription%5D=Donations+to+the+Wikimedia+Foundation%2C+the+non-profit+organisation+that+runs+Wikipedia&order%5Bbutton%5D%5Bid%5D=44aa9355518928151be736fbd043236c&order%5Bbutton%5D%5Bname%5D=Wikimedia+Donations&order%5Bbutton%5D%5Btype%5D=donation&order%5Bcreated_at%5D=2014-07-31+08%3A41%3A04+-0700&order%5Bcustom%5D=&order%5Bevent%5D=&order%5Bid%5D=7HW0APZ4&order%5Breceive_address%5D=1Q1DKLgx8rMLadEtnV8yyza9ciiHZ8qxaQ&order%5Bstatus%5D=new&order%5Btotal_btc%5D%5Bcents%5D=1709000&order%5Btotal_btc%5D%5Bcurrency_iso%5D=BTC&order%5Btotal_native%5D%5Bcents%5D=1000&order%5Btotal_native%5D%5Bcurrency_iso%5D=USD&order%5Btotal_payout%5D%5Bcents%5D=1000&order%5Btotal_payout%5D%5Bcurrency_iso%5D=USD&order%5Btransaction%5D=&cancel=true>
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 ·

Could a new link be added there that says "Why are we asking for your
details?" (or something like that) and goes to a page that explains reasons
that have been given by Lisa etc. here. This doesn't require changing any
processes/policies but does at least provide those who are concerned with
relevant information at the moment where their concerns arise, before they
feel the need to vent their frustration on the blog announcement's comments
https://blog.wikimedia.org/2014/07/30/wikimedia-foundation-now-accepts-bitcoin/comment-page-2/#comments


-Liam
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Bitcoin now accepted, but there are privacy concerns

Pine W
In reply to this post by Chris Keating-2
This may be technically possible but it may also be time consuming to
implement, and and in the interest of using Fundriasing Tech time in
optimal ways it may be that preserving donor anonymity from the IRS is a
lower priority if the Foundation can meet its fundraising goals without
doing this. I think a carefully worded, brief explanation in the blog entry
and the Bitcoin donation page would be appreciated.

My personal interest in this subject isn't about bitcoin as a currency,
it's about the preservation of privacy for those who want it, especially
for Bitcoin if WMF is going to accept it.

I think it's reasonable for people to be surprised that anonynous donations
aren't allowed through Bitcoin.

On the good side, the fact that people want to donate anonymously, taking
no credit, suggests that WMF has earned some good faith even in dangerous
places on the internet. That is impressive.

Pine
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