[Wikimedia-l] CAPTCHA issues discouraging new editors

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[Wikimedia-l] CAPTCHA issues discouraging new editors

Andy Mabbett-2
[I'm posting this here because although the experiences described
relate to en.WP, I'm sure it applies to other projects as well]


I have trained over 100 people to edit Wikipedia this year; in around
a dozen different sessions.

Not a single session has occurred, when someone has not had a problem
with our CAPTCHA interface. Often, several editors in a single sesison
are confused.

A user saves an edit, and the system responds with the requirement for
them to complete a CAPTCHA .

Sometimes, they do not realise what has happened (the paragraphs
beginning with the words "Your edit includes new external links..."
seem insufficiently prominent), or they do not understand what is
being asked of them (what words are they being asked to retype?), or
they do not see the very small box where they are supposed to enter
the CAPTCHA (on my screen, in Firefox and signed out, it is
pre-populated with "Enter the words yc", where the "c" is half of a
letter "o").

Naturally I am then able to assist them, but a user editing alone may
simply abandon the task in frustration.

I urge each of you to try this, by editing while logged out

I suggest the WMF conduct some urgent usability tests around this
feature, and either redesign or remove it.

--
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] CAPTCHA issues discouraging new editors

Lane Rasberry
Hello,

I confirm that the CAPTCHA has problems.

When someone is asked to do one, it is not clear why, and there is a
strange and non-intuitive disconnect between saving the article initially,
entering the CAPTCHA, and saving again. It is hard to explain but something
odd happens in Wikipedia that does not happen in other websites with other
CAPTCHAs- text is not clear and there is an extra step which seems
extraneous.

I also consistently encounter this problem in outreach to new users. The
problem is related to new users submitting external links.

yours,



On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 10:22 AM, Andy Mabbett <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> [I'm posting this here because although the experiences described
> relate to en.WP, I'm sure it applies to other projects as well]
>
>
> I have trained over 100 people to edit Wikipedia this year; in around
> a dozen different sessions.
>
> Not a single session has occurred, when someone has not had a problem
> with our CAPTCHA interface. Often, several editors in a single sesison
> are confused.
>
> A user saves an edit, and the system responds with the requirement for
> them to complete a CAPTCHA .
>
> Sometimes, they do not realise what has happened (the paragraphs
> beginning with the words "Your edit includes new external links..."
> seem insufficiently prominent), or they do not understand what is
> being asked of them (what words are they being asked to retype?), or
> they do not see the very small box where they are supposed to enter
> the CAPTCHA (on my screen, in Firefox and signed out, it is
> pre-populated with "Enter the words yc", where the "c" is half of a
> letter "o").
>
> Naturally I am then able to assist them, but a user editing alone may
> simply abandon the task in frustration.
>
> I urge each of you to try this, by editing while logged out
>
> I suggest the WMF conduct some urgent usability tests around this
> feature, and either redesign or remove it.
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
> @pigsonthewing
> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>




--
Lane Rasberry
user:bluerasberry on Wikipedia
206.801.0814
[hidden email]
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] CAPTCHA issues discouraging new editors

Dan Garry
In reply to this post by Andy Mabbett-2
Previous discussions on this topic:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2014-November/079318.html

Dan

On 18 June 2015 at 07:22, Andy Mabbett <[hidden email]> wrote:

> [I'm posting this here because although the experiences described
> relate to en.WP, I'm sure it applies to other projects as well]
>
>
> I have trained over 100 people to edit Wikipedia this year; in around
> a dozen different sessions.
>
> Not a single session has occurred, when someone has not had a problem
> with our CAPTCHA interface. Often, several editors in a single sesison
> are confused.
>
> A user saves an edit, and the system responds with the requirement for
> them to complete a CAPTCHA .
>
> Sometimes, they do not realise what has happened (the paragraphs
> beginning with the words "Your edit includes new external links..."
> seem insufficiently prominent), or they do not understand what is
> being asked of them (what words are they being asked to retype?), or
> they do not see the very small box where they are supposed to enter
> the CAPTCHA (on my screen, in Firefox and signed out, it is
> pre-populated with "Enter the words yc", where the "c" is half of a
> letter "o").
>
> Naturally I am then able to assist them, but a user editing alone may
> simply abandon the task in frustration.
>
> I urge each of you to try this, by editing while logged out
>
> I suggest the WMF conduct some urgent usability tests around this
> feature, and either redesign or remove it.
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
> @pigsonthewing
> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>




--
Dan Garry
Product Manager, Discovery
Wikimedia Foundation
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] CAPTCHA issues discouraging new editors

Pine W
In reply to this post by Lane Rasberry
You might want check if there is already a bug listed for this under
https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/tag/mediawiki-extensions-confirmedit-(captcha-extension)/,
and if not then create a new one. (:

Pine
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] CAPTCHA issues discouraging new editors

David Gerard-2
In reply to this post by Andy Mabbett-2
On 18 June 2015 at 15:22, Andy Mabbett <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Not a single session has occurred, when someone has not had a problem
> with our CAPTCHA interface. Often, several editors in a single sesison
> are confused.



I recall from November's discussion that not only does the captcha
keep humans out, it's trivially solvable by spambots using OCR.

That is, we already know for a fact that it's literally worse than useless.

Switching it off would thus be an immediate improvement.


- d.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] CAPTCHA issues discouraging new editors

Pharos-3
In reply to this post by Pine W
I'm here to confirm that I've seen the same issue in over almost every
wiki-workshop.

Part of the problem is the lack of prominence of the notice, and also the
CAPTCHA often being hidden "below the fold".

I would not be averse to experiment in just turning it off for a bit.

Thanks,
Pharos

On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 11:58 AM, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:

> You might want check if there is already a bug listed for this under
>
> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/tag/mediawiki-extensions-confirmedit-(captcha-extension)/
> ,
> and if not then create a new one. (:
>
> Pine
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] CAPTCHA issues discouraging new editors

Andy Mabbett-2
In reply to this post by Dan Garry
On 18 June 2015 at 16:57, Dan Garry <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Previous discussions on this topic:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2014-November/079318.html

That appears to be a disusison of teh CAPTCHA encountered during
account registration, which has a very different user-interface

--
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] CAPTCHA issues discouraging new editors

metasj
In reply to this post by Pharos-3
On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 9:07 AM, Pharos <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> I'm here to confirm that I've seen the same issue in over almost every
> wiki-workshop.
>

Seconded.  I can't remember one that didn't run into this.
Especially for editors thoughtful enough to try to link their sources.

Part of the problem is the lack of prominence of the notice, and also the
> CAPTCHA often being hidden "below the fold".
>
> I would not be averse to experiment in just turning it off for a bit.
>

+100.  Seems like an easy thing to spot-test.
Both turning it off and varying interfaces elements.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] CAPTCHA issues discouraging new editors

Legoktm
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2
On 06/18/2015 09:03 AM, David Gerard wrote:
> That is, we already know for a fact that it's literally worse than useless.
>
> Switching it off would thus be an immediate improvement.

It's actually not useless:
<https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2014-December/079762.html>

-- Legoktm

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] CAPTCHA issues discouraging new editors

Andy Mabbett-2
On 18 June 2015 at 18:20, Legoktm <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> Switching it off would thus be an immediate improvement.
>
> It's actually not useless:
> <https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2014-December/079762.html>

And again, that refers to CAPTCHA used for creating new accounts, not
the one under discussion.

--
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] CAPTCHA issues discouraging new editors

jmh649
In reply to this post by Andy Mabbett-2
Yes CAPTCHA is a pain. Yes it prevents bots from spamming us.

The question is does cluebot provide us sufficient defence such that
CAPTCHA is not needed?

--
James Heilman
MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian

Starting July 2015 I am a board member of the Wikimedia Foundation
My emails; however, do not represent the official position of the WMF

The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine
www.opentextbookofmedicine.com

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] CAPTCHA issues discouraging new editors

Legoktm
In reply to this post by Andy Mabbett-2
On 06/18/2015 10:48 AM, Andy Mabbett wrote:
> On 18 June 2015 at 18:20, Legoktm <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>> Switching it off would thus be an immediate improvement.
>>
>> It's actually not useless:
>> <https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2014-December/079762.html>
>
> And again, that refers to CAPTCHA used for creating new accounts, not
> the one under discussion.

Um, no it doesn't? It referred to *all* CAPTCHAs. I would recommend you
read
<https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:ConfirmEdit/FancyCaptcha_experiments>
which has some more details.

-- Legoktm

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] CAPTCHA issues discouraging new editors

Andy Mabbett-2
"
On 18 June 2015 at 22:25, Legoktm <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> It's actually not useless:
>>> <https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2014-December/079762.html>
>>
>> And again, that refers to CAPTCHA used for creating new accounts, not
>> the one under discussion.
>
> Um, no it doesn't? It referred to *all* CAPTCHAs.

Really? It refers to "the CAPTCHA", singular, when the CAPTCHA under
disussion was that for sign-ups. It also quotes:

>> With SUL, disabling captcha for account creation on one wiki
>> effectively means we have disabled it on all wikis (create account on
>> testwiki, visit enwiki, you're autocreated, edit!).

> I would recommend you read
> <https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:ConfirmEdit/FancyCaptcha_experiments>
> which has some more details.

So two things were disabled, and a change was noted. We don't know
which of those two things caused the change. We have no evidence as to
whether or not disabling the CAPTCHA *just* for (signed in) editors
saving an edit would have a negative effect.

--
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] CAPTCHA issues discouraging new editors

Amazon Sec. Team messages-noreply@amazon.com
In reply to this post by jmh649
Cluebot only exists on English Wikipedia, and remember that English
Wikipedia is not a standard, just another wmf wiki with the largest
userbase.

--
Revi
https://revi.me
-- Sent from Android --
2015. 6. 19. 오전 6:06에 "James Heilman" <[hidden email]>님이 작성:

> Yes CAPTCHA is a pain. Yes it prevents bots from spamming us.
>
> The question is does cluebot provide us sufficient defence such that
> CAPTCHA is not needed?
>
> --
> James Heilman
> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
>
> Starting July 2015 I am a board member of the Wikimedia Foundation
> My emails; however, do not represent the official position of the WMF
>
> The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine
> www.opentextbookofmedicine.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] CAPTCHA issues discouraging new editors

WereSpielChequers-2
In reply to this post by Andy Mabbett-2
I'm tempted to point out that this mainly affects new editors who cite their edits, other new editors will get bitten in other ways. But the internet is not the best venue for irony.

More practically, if you have a tame admin on tap then you can reduce this and other problems at editathons by setting those new accounts as "confirmed". And yes I know we also have a shortage of admins, and also that it is likely that only a tiny proportion of the editors we lose through this are at editathons.

Earlier this year as a result of the glam organisers event in Paris I made a proposal at bugzilla for an event organisers useright. This would have allowed us to circumvent this problem at those editathons that are targeted at newbies, and it got widely endorsed by GLAM editors from several languages. Sadly it got marked as resolved because there was something that looked similar to developers, though not of course to potential users. If anyone here knows how to bypass phabricator or how to mark a phabricator request as unresolved and still much wanted, then the link is https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T91928 alternatively perhaps we could persuade the education community to endorse it, it should be just as useful to them and they seem to have more clout with the WMF than the GLAM community.

As for whether the capcha is useful in keeping out spammers, remember there are two capcha steps, one when you open a new account and the other when you use that to add links. Presumably any spam program that can pass the first hurdle can pass the second. But for new good faith human editors each capcha is a possible lost edit/editor. It would be good to test dropping the capcha requirement for adding new links, alternatively perhaps we could whitelist certain domains as likely to be reliable sources and unlikely to be spam.

Regards

Jonathan


>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] CAPTCHA issues discouraging new editors

Jane Darnell
Interesting. I see that you opened the task for the user-right, but this is
a result of a decision to make a catch-all fix for several problems. I
think the capcha problem is extremely annoying and goes way beyond the
scope of the one-off edit-a-thon, so this specific issue should have its
own task number. "Tame admins" are rarely on tap so not a solution for the
user-right but does the throttle override work now? I can't see where that
fix is confirmed anywhere.

On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 2:54 PM, WereSpielChequers <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> I'm tempted to point out that this mainly affects new editors who cite
> their edits, other new editors will get bitten in other ways. But the
> internet is not the best venue for irony.
>
> More practically, if you have a tame admin on tap then you can reduce this
> and other problems at editathons by setting those new accounts as
> "confirmed". And yes I know we also have a shortage of admins, and also
> that it is likely that only a tiny proportion of the editors we lose
> through this are at editathons.
>
> Earlier this year as a result of the glam organisers event in Paris I made
> a proposal at bugzilla for an event organisers useright. This would have
> allowed us to circumvent this problem at those editathons that are targeted
> at newbies, and it got widely endorsed by GLAM editors from several
> languages. Sadly it got marked as resolved because there was something that
> looked similar to developers, though not of course to potential users. If
> anyone here knows how to bypass phabricator or how to mark a phabricator
> request as unresolved and still much wanted, then the link is
> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T91928 alternatively perhaps we could
> persuade the education community to endorse it, it should be just as useful
> to them and they seem to have more clout with the WMF than the GLAM
> community.
>
> As for whether the capcha is useful in keeping out spammers, remember
> there are two capcha steps, one when you open a new account and the other
> when you use that to add links. Presumably any spam program that can pass
> the first hurdle can pass the second. But for new good faith human editors
> each capcha is a possible lost edit/editor. It would be good to test
> dropping the capcha requirement for adding new links, alternatively perhaps
> we could whitelist certain domains as likely to be reliable sources and
> unlikely to be spam.
>
> Regards
>
> Jonathan
>
>
> >
> _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] CAPTCHA issues discouraging new editors

Andy Mabbett-2
In reply to this post by WereSpielChequers-2
On 19 June 2015 at 13:54, WereSpielChequers <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Earlier this year as a result of the glam organisers event in Paris I made a proposal at bugzilla for an event organisers useright. This would have allowed us to circumvent this problem at those editathons that are targeted at newbies, and it got widely endorsed by GLAM editors from several languages. Sadly it got marked as resolved because there was something that looked similar to developers, though not of course to potential users. If anyone here knows how to bypass phabricator or how to mark a phabricator request as unresolved and still much wanted, then the link is https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T91928

I've reopened it - please comment there.

--
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] CAPTCHA issues discouraging new editors

Eduardo Testart
Hi all,

I know this might be a bit off topic but I'll risk it anyways.

One told me a couple weeks ago that CAPTCHA (at least one CAPTCHA) was
created or used to transcribe documents bit by bit, each word you enter
corresponds to a two word link, that when it reaches so many equal
responses is marked as resolved and moved to the next word on a document.

Wouldn't be wonderful if we could use this idea to transcribe documents in
Wikisource, create our own CAPTCHA for the benefit of our own projects.

Also, filling up a CAPTCHA this way, would make it count as one more edit.

Thus we will be more synergetic towards our own efforts, and have a CAPTCHA
might make sense overall if needed.

Please fill free to separate the thread or correct me, since I only used my
friends story as a source.

Best!
El jun. 19, 2015 10:59 AM, "Andy Mabbett" <[hidden email]>
escribió:

> On 19 June 2015 at 13:54, WereSpielChequers <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Earlier this year as a result of the glam organisers event in Paris I
> made a proposal at bugzilla for an event organisers useright. This would
> have allowed us to circumvent this problem at those editathons that are
> targeted at newbies, and it got widely endorsed by GLAM editors from
> several languages. Sadly it got marked as resolved because there was
> something that looked similar to developers, though not of course to
> potential users. If anyone here knows how to bypass phabricator or how to
> mark a phabricator request as unresolved and still much wanted, then the
> link is https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T91928
>
> I've reopened it - please comment there.
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
> @pigsonthewing
> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] CAPTCHA issues discouraging new editors

Andy Mabbett-2
In reply to this post by Andy Mabbett-2
On 19 June 2015 at 14:58, Andy Mabbett <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 19 June 2015 at 13:54, WereSpielChequers <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Earlier this year as a result of the glam organisers event in Paris I made a proposal at bugzilla for an event organisers useright. This would have allowed us to circumvent this problem at those editathons that are targeted at newbies, and it got widely endorsed by GLAM editors from several languages. Sadly it got marked as resolved because there was something that looked similar to developers, though not of course to potential users. If anyone here knows how to bypass phabricator or how to mark a phabricator request as unresolved and still much wanted, then the link is https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T91928
>
> I've reopened it - please comment there.

It's been closed again. Nonetheless, please do comment.

--
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] CAPTCHA issues discouraging new editors

Amazon Sec. Team messages-noreply@amazon.com
ThrottleOverride extension is not deployed on WMF cluster[1] so your best
bet is to create a new bug which is already deployed on WMF cluster.

[1] this means even if this is fixed, you will not see the fixed code on
wikimedia wikis.

--
Revi
https://www.revi.pe.kr
-- Sent from Android --
2015. 6. 19. 오후 11:31에 "Andy Mabbett" <[hidden email]>님이 작성:

> On 19 June 2015 at 14:58, Andy Mabbett <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On 19 June 2015 at 13:54, WereSpielChequers <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Earlier this year as a result of the glam organisers event in Paris I
> made a proposal at bugzilla for an event organisers useright. This would
> have allowed us to circumvent this problem at those editathons that are
> targeted at newbies, and it got widely endorsed by GLAM editors from
> several languages. Sadly it got marked as resolved because there was
> something that looked similar to developers, though not of course to
> potential users. If anyone here knows how to bypass phabricator or how to
> mark a phabricator request as unresolved and still much wanted, then the
> link is https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T91928
> >
> > I've reopened it - please comment there.
>
> It's been closed again. Nonetheless, please do comment.
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
> @pigsonthewing
> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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