[Wikimedia-l] Chapter De-Recognition: Wikimedia Hong Kong

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[Wikimedia-l] Chapter De-Recognition: Wikimedia Hong Kong

Kirill Lokshin
Hi everyone,

Recognition as a Wikimedia movement affiliate — a chapter, thematic
organization, or user group — is a privilege that allows an independent
group to officially use the Wikimedia trademarks to further the Wikimedia
mission. While most affiliates adhere to the basic compliance standards set
forth in their agreements with the Wikimedia Foundation, a protocol has
been developed to address the exceptional cases when a Wikimedia movement
affiliate does not meet basic compliance standards and their continued
recognition as a Wikimedia movement affiliate presents a risk to the
Wikimedia movement.

On September 9, 2016, Wikimedia Hong Kong was notified of their suspension
as a Wikimedia affiliate due to long standing non-compliance with reporting
requirements, and was provided with an explicit list of tasks and deadlines
in order to return to compliance with their chapter agreement. The chapter
failed to complete these tasks by the deadline of November 1, 2016, and was
consequently notified that they would no longer be recognized as a
Wikimedia chapter after the termination of their Chapter Agreement on
February 1, 2017.

If you have questions about what this means for the community members in
Wikimedia Hong Kong’s geographic area or language scope, we have put
together a very basic FAQ, which may be found at
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_movement_affiliate_de-recognition_FAQ
.

Regards,
Kirill Lokshin
Vice-Chair, Affiliations Committee
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Chapter De-Recognition: Wikimedia Hong Kong

Gilbert Conus-2
Hi,

where is it possible to read this specific list of tasks in order to
understand this email ?

Regards,
Gilbert

Le 08.02.2017 à 03:19, Kirill Lokshin a écrit :

> Hi everyone,
>
> Recognition as a Wikimedia movement affiliate — a chapter, thematic
> organization, or user group — is a privilege that allows an independent
> group to officially use the Wikimedia trademarks to further the Wikimedia
> mission. While most affiliates adhere to the basic compliance standards set
> forth in their agreements with the Wikimedia Foundation, a protocol has
> been developed to address the exceptional cases when a Wikimedia movement
> affiliate does not meet basic compliance standards and their continued
> recognition as a Wikimedia movement affiliate presents a risk to the
> Wikimedia movement.
>
> On September 9, 2016, Wikimedia Hong Kong was notified of their suspension
> as a Wikimedia affiliate due to long standing non-compliance with reporting
> requirements, and was provided with an explicit list of tasks and deadlines
> in order to return to compliance with their chapter agreement. The chapter
> failed to complete these tasks by the deadline of November 1, 2016, and was
> consequently notified that they would no longer be recognized as a
> Wikimedia chapter after the termination of their Chapter Agreement on
> February 1, 2017.
>
> If you have questions about what this means for the community members in
> Wikimedia Hong Kong’s geographic area or language scope, we have put
> together a very basic FAQ, which may be found at
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_movement_affiliate_de-recognition_FAQ
> .
>
> Regards,
> Kirill Lokshin
> Vice-Chair, Affiliations Committee
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>

--
Gilbert Conus
Wikimedia CH Member

---

Wikimedia CH
Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens
Association pour l'avancement des connaissances libres
Associazione per il progresso della conoscenza libera
Association for the advancement of free knowledge

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Chapter De-Recognition: Wikimedia Hong Kong

Manuel Schneider-3
Salut Gilbert,

a brief summary of the benefits, limits and expectations of chapters can
be found here:

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliations_Committee/Chapter_Summary_Matrix

Apart from that has every chapter a Chapter Agreement which has more
details.

On top of that additional requirements and expectations are set by the
programs a chapter participates in or benefits from, e.g. PEG or FDC.

This means that requirements and tasks of some chapters are smaller (eg.
if they are small, work with only with the money they raise themselves)
or bigger (eg. for chapters participating in FDC or take in grants).

In the case of de-recognitions the AffCom and the WMF work with these
chapters long before. Problems / incompliance is noted and discussed,
chapters are asked to come up with plans how to fix this. AffCom and WMF
also provide help and a lot of patience in getting things sorted.
Just when these plans don't work out or chapters are completely
unwilling to fix things or come up with any plans then a series of
deadlines will be applied to get things going - either in one direction
or another.

As Maor has written in an earlier statement of the AffCom a few days ago
there have been several such processes going on over the last year. So
everyone involved is very much aware of what is going on, it will be no
suprise to anyone affected.

Of course such issues are delicate and there is always the hope and the
goal to fix problems so things never come to an end like this and must
not been taken to the public. Things sometimes do go wrong and nobody
wants to publicly blame or shame someone or even a group. Every chapter
in trouble is encouraged to scale down to a user group and try again in
a smaller, easier to handle environment. When they can be successful and
sustainable in that way then the path to become a chapter later and
matured is always still open.

It is not about punishing people or anything towards chapters in
general. It is just ultimately enforcing the rules and agreements which
are in place and had been the foundation of being a chapter, receiving
grants etc.


/Manuel
--
Wikimedia CH - Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
www.wikimedia.ch

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Chapter De-Recognition: Wikimedia Hong Kong

Gnangarra
In reply to this post by Gilbert Conus-2
trying to understand the process as well as the why here,

what I see at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Reports is that they havent
supplied the 2015-16 report they report on the period 1 Jul to 30 Jun (same
as WMAU). On September 9 2016 they were asked to furnish this report and
given until 1 November to do it.

If this had been Australia our reporting occurs with the our annual general
meeting normally in October at which the members endorse or reject the
reports(never happened) at the same time the committee is dissolved and
elections take place(legal requirement in Australia) This new committee has
a number of functions to carry out of the change over including reporting
to a number of Government agencies, as well as to the WMF which happened on 7
Nov
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikimedia_chapters/Reports/Wikimedia_Australia/2016/Annual_Report&action=history>,


Looking at the WMHK reporting the previous period 2014-15 report wasnt
posted until 1st December, to place an expectation of compliance by 1
November in September 2016 when the normal reporting time frame is
historically longer appears unfair and designed to cause conflict.

Recognising some faults in that the 2014-15 report wasnt adequate and needs
to be improved, and that its now February 2017 the report still hasnt been
furnished. The process of de-registering that has taken place based on the
information provided appears flawed.  I dont discount that other
information not made available makes this a necessary step but perhaps
there is room for a period suspension  12-18 months which is what it would
take to get another affiliate started anyway would.

Observation: When we place trust within the projects and the community it
appears that we like to grab the biggest stick possible to whack people
with it with at the first opportunity.

On 8 February 2017 at 15:29, Gilbert Conus <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> where is it possible to read this specific list of tasks in order to
> understand this email ?
>
> Regards,
> Gilbert
>
>
> Le 08.02.2017 à 03:19, Kirill Lokshin a écrit :
>
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> Recognition as a Wikimedia movement affiliate — a chapter, thematic
>> organization, or user group — is a privilege that allows an independent
>> group to officially use the Wikimedia trademarks to further the Wikimedia
>> mission. While most affiliates adhere to the basic compliance standards
>> set
>> forth in their agreements with the Wikimedia Foundation, a protocol has
>> been developed to address the exceptional cases when a Wikimedia movement
>> affiliate does not meet basic compliance standards and their continued
>> recognition as a Wikimedia movement affiliate presents a risk to the
>> Wikimedia movement.
>>
>> On September 9, 2016, Wikimedia Hong Kong was notified of their suspension
>> as a Wikimedia affiliate due to long standing non-compliance with
>> reporting
>> requirements, and was provided with an explicit list of tasks and
>> deadlines
>> in order to return to compliance with their chapter agreement. The chapter
>> failed to complete these tasks by the deadline of November 1, 2016, and
>> was
>> consequently notified that they would no longer be recognized as a
>> Wikimedia chapter after the termination of their Chapter Agreement on
>> February 1, 2017.
>>
>> If you have questions about what this means for the community members in
>> Wikimedia Hong Kong’s geographic area or language scope, we have put
>> together a very basic FAQ, which may be found at
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_movement_affiliate
>> _de-recognition_FAQ
>> .
>>
>> Regards,
>> Kirill Lokshin
>> Vice-Chair, Affiliations Committee
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
>> i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
>> i/Wikimedia-l
>> New messages to: [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>
>>
> --
> Gilbert Conus
> Wikimedia CH Member
>
> ---
>
> Wikimedia CH
> Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens
> Association pour l'avancement des connaissances libres
> Associazione per il progresso della conoscenza libera
> Association for the advancement of free knowledge
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
> i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>



--
GN.
President Wikimedia Australia
WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Chapter De-Recognition: Wikimedia Hong Kong

Gnangarra
was writing my comment at the same time as Manuel, there is a local legal
dimension in his comment that hasnt been brought up here that is there may
be no ability to scale back to a Usergroup model,  those dimensions will be
different for every country but we need to also recognise that they exist
and are potentially substantial barriers.

While community process might call a group a UG and relate to them in that
way, the actual underlying local requirements and expenses maybe be no
different to that of a chapter.

As we are learning changes can occur rapidly and the implications of those
is beyond the ability of a one size fits all policy/process to address
needs for 190 different countries plus internal states and independent
territories.

I dont disagree we need these policies and process but care in recommending
them without the appropriate training and knowledge is also part of the
problem

On 8 February 2017 at 16:22, Gnangarra <[hidden email]> wrote:

> trying to understand the process as well as the why here,
>
> what I see at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Reports is that they havent
> supplied the 2015-16 report they report on the period 1 Jul to 30 Jun (same
> as WMAU). On September 9 2016 they were asked to furnish this report and
> given until 1 November to do it.
>
> If this had been Australia our reporting occurs with the our annual
> general meeting normally in October at which the members endorse or reject
> the reports(never happened) at the same time the committee is dissolved and
> elections take place(legal requirement in Australia) This new committee has
> a number of functions to carry out of the change over including reporting
> to a number of Government agencies, as well as to the WMF which happened on 7
> Nov
> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikimedia_chapters/Reports/Wikimedia_Australia/2016/Annual_Report&action=history>,
>
>
> Looking at the WMHK reporting the previous period 2014-15 report wasnt
> posted until 1st December, to place an expectation of compliance by 1
> November in September 2016 when the normal reporting time frame is
> historically longer appears unfair and designed to cause conflict.
>
> Recognising some faults in that the 2014-15 report wasnt adequate and
> needs to be improved, and that its now February 2017 the report still hasnt
> been furnished. The process of de-registering that has taken place based on
> the information provided appears flawed.  I dont discount that other
> information not made available makes this a necessary step but perhaps
> there is room for a period suspension  12-18 months which is what it would
> take to get another affiliate started anyway would.
>
> Observation: When we place trust within the projects and the community it
> appears that we like to grab the biggest stick possible to whack people
> with it with at the first opportunity.
>
> On 8 February 2017 at 15:29, Gilbert Conus <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> where is it possible to read this specific list of tasks in order to
>> understand this email ?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Gilbert
>>
>>
>> Le 08.02.2017 à 03:19, Kirill Lokshin a écrit :
>>
>>> Hi everyone,
>>>
>>> Recognition as a Wikimedia movement affiliate — a chapter, thematic
>>> organization, or user group — is a privilege that allows an independent
>>> group to officially use the Wikimedia trademarks to further the Wikimedia
>>> mission. While most affiliates adhere to the basic compliance standards
>>> set
>>> forth in their agreements with the Wikimedia Foundation, a protocol has
>>> been developed to address the exceptional cases when a Wikimedia movement
>>> affiliate does not meet basic compliance standards and their continued
>>> recognition as a Wikimedia movement affiliate presents a risk to the
>>> Wikimedia movement.
>>>
>>> On September 9, 2016, Wikimedia Hong Kong was notified of their
>>> suspension
>>> as a Wikimedia affiliate due to long standing non-compliance with
>>> reporting
>>> requirements, and was provided with an explicit list of tasks and
>>> deadlines
>>> in order to return to compliance with their chapter agreement. The
>>> chapter
>>> failed to complete these tasks by the deadline of November 1, 2016, and
>>> was
>>> consequently notified that they would no longer be recognized as a
>>> Wikimedia chapter after the termination of their Chapter Agreement on
>>> February 1, 2017.
>>>
>>> If you have questions about what this means for the community members in
>>> Wikimedia Hong Kong’s geographic area or language scope, we have put
>>> together a very basic FAQ, which may be found at
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_movement_affiliate
>>> _de-recognition_FAQ
>>> .
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Kirill Lokshin
>>> Vice-Chair, Affiliations Committee
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
>>> i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
>>> i/Wikimedia-l
>>> New messages to: [hidden email]
>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>
>>>
>> --
>> Gilbert Conus
>> Wikimedia CH Member
>>
>> ---
>>
>> Wikimedia CH
>> Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens
>> Association pour l'avancement des connaissances libres
>> Associazione per il progresso della conoscenza libera
>> Association for the advancement of free knowledge
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
>> i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
>> i/Wikimedia-l
>> New messages to: [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> GN.
> President Wikimedia Australia
> WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
> Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
>
>


--
GN.
President Wikimedia Australia
WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
_______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Chapter De-Recognition: Wikimedia Hong Kong

Dariusz Jemielniak-3
In reply to this post by Gnangarra
On Wed, Feb 8, 2017 at 9:22 AM, Gnangarra <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Observation: When we place trust within the projects and the community it
> appears that we like to grab the biggest stick possible to whack people
> with it with at the first opportunity.


I am not going to comment on this particular case - although I believe that
to make a fair judgment one would probably have to go into a bit more
details than compare the dates of report submissions.

I have to say that in my whole hands-on experience with the WMF staff
responsible for relations with our affiliates over the last 5+ years, I
have NEVER observed their urge to "grab the biggest stick possible to whack
people at the first opportunity" as you put it. Have they misunderstood
cultural nuances? Sure, sometimes. Have they been driven by their own
strong view how things should be done? Definitely (not sure if it is always
a bad thing, btw). Have they decided about the things, that the community
should have more influence on? Maybe.

However, on a number of occassions I have seen the WMF staff to be really
supportive and passionate about the affiliate work. The drive to punish
anyone is something I've never observed. For the good or for the bad, they
are professionals. They definitely occasionally make mistakes, like we all
do - and these should be constructively discussed, while aiming at the best
possible result for the community. But I believe that suggesting that the
WMF is simply waiting for opportunities to use disproportionate punishments
on affiliates is outright assuming bad faith, and is unfair.

best,

dariusz ("pundit"), current community-elected trustee
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Chapter De-Recognition: Wikimedia Hong Kong

Kirill Lokshin
In reply to this post by Gnangarra
Hi Gnangarra,

Unlike user groups, which can meet reporting requirements simply by
providing an annual report of activities, chapters are additionally
required to publish a complete set of financial statements annually.
Further, chapters that receive funds from any Wikimedia Foundation grant
program are required to meet specific financial reporting requirements
related to those grants in addition to the annual financial statements.

A chapter that fails to meet either of these financial reporting
requirements would be considered non-compliant with their chapter
agreement, regardless of whether they satisfied the minimum activity
reporting requirement.

Regards,
Kirill Lokshin
Vice-Chair, Affiliations Committee

On Wed, Feb 8, 2017 at 3:22 AM, Gnangarra <[hidden email]> wrote:

> trying to understand the process as well as the why here,
>
> what I see at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Reports is that they havent
> supplied the 2015-16 report they report on the period 1 Jul to 30 Jun (same
> as WMAU). On September 9 2016 they were asked to furnish this report and
> given until 1 November to do it.
>
> If this had been Australia our reporting occurs with the our annual general
> meeting normally in October at which the members endorse or reject the
> reports(never happened) at the same time the committee is dissolved and
> elections take place(legal requirement in Australia) This new committee has
> a number of functions to carry out of the change over including reporting
> to a number of Government agencies, as well as to the WMF which happened
> on 7
> Nov
> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikimedia_
> chapters/Reports/Wikimedia_Australia/2016/Annual_Report&action=history>,
>
>
> Looking at the WMHK reporting the previous period 2014-15 report wasnt
> posted until 1st December, to place an expectation of compliance by 1
> November in September 2016 when the normal reporting time frame is
> historically longer appears unfair and designed to cause conflict.
>
> Recognising some faults in that the 2014-15 report wasnt adequate and needs
> to be improved, and that its now February 2017 the report still hasnt been
> furnished. The process of de-registering that has taken place based on the
> information provided appears flawed.  I dont discount that other
> information not made available makes this a necessary step but perhaps
> there is room for a period suspension  12-18 months which is what it would
> take to get another affiliate started anyway would.
>
> Observation: When we place trust within the projects and the community it
> appears that we like to grab the biggest stick possible to whack people
> with it with at the first opportunity.
>
> On 8 February 2017 at 15:29, Gilbert Conus <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > where is it possible to read this specific list of tasks in order to
> > understand this email ?
> >
> > Regards,
> > Gilbert
> >
> >
> > Le 08.02.2017 à 03:19, Kirill Lokshin a écrit :
> >
> >> Hi everyone,
> >>
> >> Recognition as a Wikimedia movement affiliate — a chapter, thematic
> >> organization, or user group — is a privilege that allows an independent
> >> group to officially use the Wikimedia trademarks to further the
> Wikimedia
> >> mission. While most affiliates adhere to the basic compliance standards
> >> set
> >> forth in their agreements with the Wikimedia Foundation, a protocol has
> >> been developed to address the exceptional cases when a Wikimedia
> movement
> >> affiliate does not meet basic compliance standards and their continued
> >> recognition as a Wikimedia movement affiliate presents a risk to the
> >> Wikimedia movement.
> >>
> >> On September 9, 2016, Wikimedia Hong Kong was notified of their
> suspension
> >> as a Wikimedia affiliate due to long standing non-compliance with
> >> reporting
> >> requirements, and was provided with an explicit list of tasks and
> >> deadlines
> >> in order to return to compliance with their chapter agreement. The
> chapter
> >> failed to complete these tasks by the deadline of November 1, 2016, and
> >> was
> >> consequently notified that they would no longer be recognized as a
> >> Wikimedia chapter after the termination of their Chapter Agreement on
> >> February 1, 2017.
> >>
> >> If you have questions about what this means for the community members in
> >> Wikimedia Hong Kong’s geographic area or language scope, we have put
> >> together a very basic FAQ, which may be found at
> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_movement_affiliate
> >> _de-recognition_FAQ
> >> .
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Kirill Lokshin
> >> Vice-Chair, Affiliations Committee
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
> >> i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
> >> i/Wikimedia-l
> >> New messages to: [hidden email]
> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> >> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >>
> >>
> > --
> > Gilbert Conus
> > Wikimedia CH Member
> >
> > ---
> >
> > Wikimedia CH
> > Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens
> > Association pour l'avancement des connaissances libres
> > Associazione per il progresso della conoscenza libera
> > Association for the advancement of free knowledge
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
> > i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
>
>
>
> --
> GN.
> President Wikimedia Australia
> WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
> Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
_______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Chapter De-Recognition: Wikimedia Hong Kong

Gnangarra
In reply to this post by Dariusz Jemielniak-3
​Agree the WMF staff dont always but the community/committee level does I
have experienced it first hand, both personally and as a chapter there are
policies written about not biting people so it happens all to regularly.

Maybe there is also the influence of being isolated in Australia that we
dont get the opportunity to participate on any meaningful regular basis
​with the wider community that we cant observe or be part of those softer
process nor hear about them taking place.



On 8 February 2017 at 16:57, Dariusz Jemielniak <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Wed, Feb 8, 2017 at 9:22 AM, Gnangarra <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Observation: When we place trust within the projects and the community it
> > appears that we like to grab the biggest stick possible to whack people
> > with it with at the first opportunity.
>
>
> I am not going to comment on this particular case - although I believe that
> to make a fair judgment one would probably have to go into a bit more
> details than compare the dates of report submissions.
>
> I have to say that in my whole hands-on experience with the WMF staff
> responsible for relations with our affiliates over the last 5+ years, I
> have NEVER observed their urge to "grab the biggest stick possible to whack
> people at the first opportunity" as you put it. Have they misunderstood
> cultural nuances? Sure, sometimes. Have they been driven by their own
> strong view how things should be done? Definitely (not sure if it is always
> a bad thing, btw). Have they decided about the things, that the community
> should have more influence on? Maybe.
>
> However, on a number of occassions I have seen the WMF staff to be really
> supportive and passionate about the affiliate work. The drive to punish
> anyone is something I've never observed. For the good or for the bad, they
> are professionals. They definitely occasionally make mistakes, like we all
> do - and these should be constructively discussed, while aiming at the best
> possible result for the community. But I believe that suggesting that the
> WMF is simply waiting for opportunities to use disproportionate punishments
> on affiliates is outright assuming bad faith, and is unfair.
>
> best,
>
> dariusz ("pundit"), current community-elected trustee
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>



--
GN.
President Wikimedia Australia
WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Chapter De-Recognition: Wikimedia Hong Kong

jmh649
In reply to this post by Kirill Lokshin
Thanks Kirill

In my opinion this is reasonable. We need to have criteria for what
affiliation with the movement means and what it requires from those
affiliated. If the requirements are consistently not met than removing
official affiliation until it is is simply common practice.

James

On Wednesday, February 8, 2017, Kirill Lokshin <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> Recognition as a Wikimedia movement affiliate — a chapter, thematic
> organization, or user group — is a privilege that allows an independent
> group to officially use the Wikimedia trademarks to further the Wikimedia
> mission. While most affiliates adhere to the basic compliance standards set
> forth in their agreements with the Wikimedia Foundation, a protocol has
> been developed to address the exceptional cases when a Wikimedia movement
> affiliate does not meet basic compliance standards and their continued
> recognition as a Wikimedia movement affiliate presents a risk to the
> Wikimedia movement.
>
> On September 9, 2016, Wikimedia Hong Kong was notified of their suspension
> as a Wikimedia affiliate due to long standing non-compliance with reporting
> requirements, and was provided with an explicit list of tasks and deadlines
> in order to return to compliance with their chapter agreement. The chapter
> failed to complete these tasks by the deadline of November 1, 2016, and was
> consequently notified that they would no longer be recognized as a
> Wikimedia chapter after the termination of their Chapter Agreement on
> February 1, 2017.
>
> If you have questions about what this means for the community members in
> Wikimedia Hong Kong’s geographic area or language scope, we have put
> together a very basic FAQ, which may be found at
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_movement_
> affiliate_de-recognition_FAQ
> .
>
> Regards,
> Kirill Lokshin
> Vice-Chair, Affiliations Committee
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email] <javascript:;>
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email] <javascript:;>
> ?subject=unsubscribe>



--
James Heilman
MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian

The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Chapter De-Recognition: Wikimedia Hong Kong

Fæ
Could we have a confirmation from AffCom that the list of formerly
active affiliates on meta is "official", i.e. the definitive public
reference list, and is maintained?
* https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_movement_affiliates/Formerly_Active_Affiliates

If it is officially maintained, this may avoid folks becoming confused
about which organizations on the main Reports page who have not
managed to achieve their reporting requirements to comply with their
contract/agreement with the WMF, no longer have a valid contract. As
this is a legal decision, there should be no need for grey areas.

Thanks,
Fae
--
[hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae

On 8 February 2017 at 11:09, James Heilman <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thanks Kirill
>
> In my opinion this is reasonable. We need to have criteria for what
> affiliation with the movement means and what it requires from those
> affiliated. If the requirements are consistently not met than removing
> official affiliation until it is is simply common practice.
>
> James
>
> On Wednesday, February 8, 2017, Kirill Lokshin <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> Recognition as a Wikimedia movement affiliate — a chapter, thematic
>> organization, or user group — is a privilege that allows an independent
>> group to officially use the Wikimedia trademarks to further the Wikimedia
>> mission. While most affiliates adhere to the basic compliance standards set
>> forth in their agreements with the Wikimedia Foundation, a protocol has
>> been developed to address the exceptional cases when a Wikimedia movement
>> affiliate does not meet basic compliance standards and their continued
>> recognition as a Wikimedia movement affiliate presents a risk to the
>> Wikimedia movement.
>>
>> On September 9, 2016, Wikimedia Hong Kong was notified of their suspension
>> as a Wikimedia affiliate due to long standing non-compliance with reporting
>> requirements, and was provided with an explicit list of tasks and deadlines
>> in order to return to compliance with their chapter agreement. The chapter
>> failed to complete these tasks by the deadline of November 1, 2016, and was
>> consequently notified that they would no longer be recognized as a
>> Wikimedia chapter after the termination of their Chapter Agreement on
>> February 1, 2017.
>>
>> If you have questions about what this means for the community members in
>> Wikimedia Hong Kong’s geographic area or language scope, we have put
>> together a very basic FAQ, which may be found at
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_movement_
>> affiliate_de-recognition_FAQ
>> .
>>
>> Regards,
>> Kirill Lokshin
>> Vice-Chair, Affiliations Committee
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
>> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
>> wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> New messages to: [hidden email] <javascript:;>
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email] <javascript:;>
>> ?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
>
> --
> James Heilman
> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian

_______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Chapter De-Recognition: Wikimedia Hong Kong

Rover Wong
In reply to this post by jmh649
Hi all,

On behalf of WMHK, I would like to say something.

Some may think it is pity that WMHK has been de-recognized. But the board
of WMHK has actually already decided to disband the chapter.

Although WMHK will cease to exist, I still hope the other chapters will
continue to try their best in the Wikimedia movement.

Regards,
Rover Wong
the last president of Wikimedia Hong Kong

2017年2月8日 下午7:10 於 "James Heilman" <[hidden email]> 寫道:

> Thanks Kirill
>
> In my opinion this is reasonable. We need to have criteria for what
> affiliation with the movement means and what it requires from those
> affiliated. If the requirements are consistently not met than removing
> official affiliation until it is is simply common practice.
>
> James
>
> On Wednesday, February 8, 2017, Kirill Lokshin <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi everyone,
> >
> > Recognition as a Wikimedia movement affiliate — a chapter, thematic
> > organization, or user group — is a privilege that allows an independent
> > group to officially use the Wikimedia trademarks to further the Wikimedia
> > mission. While most affiliates adhere to the basic compliance standards
> set
> > forth in their agreements with the Wikimedia Foundation, a protocol has
> > been developed to address the exceptional cases when a Wikimedia movement
> > affiliate does not meet basic compliance standards and their continued
> > recognition as a Wikimedia movement affiliate presents a risk to the
> > Wikimedia movement.
> >
> > On September 9, 2016, Wikimedia Hong Kong was notified of their
> suspension
> > as a Wikimedia affiliate due to long standing non-compliance with
> reporting
> > requirements, and was provided with an explicit list of tasks and
> deadlines
> > in order to return to compliance with their chapter agreement. The
> chapter
> > failed to complete these tasks by the deadline of November 1, 2016, and
> was
> > consequently notified that they would no longer be recognized as a
> > Wikimedia chapter after the termination of their Chapter Agreement on
> > February 1, 2017.
> >
> > If you have questions about what this means for the community members in
> > Wikimedia Hong Kong’s geographic area or language scope, we have put
> > together a very basic FAQ, which may be found at
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_movement_
> > affiliate_de-recognition_FAQ
> > .
> >
> > Regards,
> > Kirill Lokshin
> > Vice-Chair, Affiliations Committee
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email] <javascript:;>
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email] <javascript:;>
> > ?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
>
> --
> James Heilman
> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
>
> The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
_______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Chapter De-Recognition: Wikimedia Hong Kong

Rogol Domedonfors
I am glad to see that the WMF is being rigorous in ensuring that the
donors' money is being spent effectively and accountably by the affiliated
organisations.  Of course one does not expect a detailed narrative when the
WMF deems it necessary to take action in this way since named individuals
are necessarily involved.

On Wed, Feb 8, 2017 at 11:48 AM, Wong Rover <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> On behalf of WMHK, I would like to say something.
>
> Some may think it is pity that WMHK has been de-recognized. But the board
> of WMHK has actually already decided to disband the chapter.
>
> Although WMHK will cease to exist, I still hope the other chapters will
> continue to try their best in the Wikimedia movement.
>
> Regards,
> Rover Wong
> the last president of Wikimedia Hong Kong
>
> 2017年2月8日 下午7:10 於 "James Heilman" <[hidden email]> 寫道:
>
> > Thanks Kirill
> >
> > In my opinion this is reasonable. We need to have criteria for what
> > affiliation with the movement means and what it requires from those
> > affiliated. If the requirements are consistently not met than removing
> > official affiliation until it is is simply common practice.
> >
> > James
> >
> > On Wednesday, February 8, 2017, Kirill Lokshin <[hidden email]
> >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi everyone,
> > >
> > > Recognition as a Wikimedia movement affiliate — a chapter, thematic
> > > organization, or user group — is a privilege that allows an independent
> > > group to officially use the Wikimedia trademarks to further the
> Wikimedia
> > > mission. While most affiliates adhere to the basic compliance standards
> > set
> > > forth in their agreements with the Wikimedia Foundation, a protocol has
> > > been developed to address the exceptional cases when a Wikimedia
> movement
> > > affiliate does not meet basic compliance standards and their continued
> > > recognition as a Wikimedia movement affiliate presents a risk to the
> > > Wikimedia movement.
> > >
> > > On September 9, 2016, Wikimedia Hong Kong was notified of their
> > suspension
> > > as a Wikimedia affiliate due to long standing non-compliance with
> > reporting
> > > requirements, and was provided with an explicit list of tasks and
> > deadlines
> > > in order to return to compliance with their chapter agreement. The
> > chapter
> > > failed to complete these tasks by the deadline of November 1, 2016, and
> > was
> > > consequently notified that they would no longer be recognized as a
> > > Wikimedia chapter after the termination of their Chapter Agreement on
> > > February 1, 2017.
> > >
> > > If you have questions about what this means for the community members
> in
> > > Wikimedia Hong Kong’s geographic area or language scope, we have put
> > > together a very basic FAQ, which may be found at
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_movement_
> > > affiliate_de-recognition_FAQ
> > > .
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Kirill Lokshin
> > > Vice-Chair, Affiliations Committee
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: [hidden email] <javascript:;>
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email] <javascript:;>
> > > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > James Heilman
> > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> >
> > The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
_______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Chapter De-Recognition: Wikimedia Hong Kong

Katie Chan
In reply to this post by Kirill Lokshin
This particular decision has arguably been a long time coming, but I am
sad that it has indeed happened. My best wishes to all Wikimedians in
Hong Kong with whatever their plans are for the future.

KTC

On 08/02/2017 02:19, Kirill Lokshin wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> Recognition as a Wikimedia movement affiliate — a chapter, thematic
> organization, or user group — is a privilege that allows an independent
> group to officially use the Wikimedia trademarks to further the Wikimedia
> mission. While most affiliates adhere to the basic compliance standards set
> forth in their agreements with the Wikimedia Foundation, a protocol has
> been developed to address the exceptional cases when a Wikimedia movement
> affiliate does not meet basic compliance standards and their continued
> recognition as a Wikimedia movement affiliate presents a risk to the
> Wikimedia movement.
>
> On September 9, 2016, Wikimedia Hong Kong was notified of their suspension
> as a Wikimedia affiliate due to long standing non-compliance with reporting
> requirements, and was provided with an explicit list of tasks and deadlines
> in order to return to compliance with their chapter agreement. The chapter
> failed to complete these tasks by the deadline of November 1, 2016, and was
> consequently notified that they would no longer be recognized as a
> Wikimedia chapter after the termination of their Chapter Agreement on
> February 1, 2017.
>
> If you have questions about what this means for the community members in
> Wikimedia Hong Kong’s geographic area or language scope, we have put
> together a very basic FAQ, which may be found at
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_movement_affiliate_de-recognition_FAQ


--
Katie Chan
Any views or opinions presented in this e-mail are solely those of the
author and do not necessarily represent the view of any organisation the
author is associated with or employed by.


Experience is a good school but the fees are high.
     - Heinrich Heine

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Chapter De-Recognition: Wikimedia Hong Kong

Chris Keating-2
In reply to this post by Rover Wong
Thanks to everyone who's participated in WMHK and in particular everyone
involved in Wikimania 2013! Thank you for your efforts and best wishes to
those aiming to move things forwards again.



On Wed, Feb 8, 2017 at 11:48 AM, Wong Rover <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> On behalf of WMHK, I would like to say something.
>
> Some may think it is pity that WMHK has been de-recognized. But the board
> of WMHK has actually already decided to disband the chapter.
>
> Although WMHK will cease to exist, I still hope the other chapters will
> continue to try their best in the Wikimedia movement.
>
> Regards,
> Rover Wong
> the last president of Wikimedia Hong Kong
>
> 2017年2月8日 下午7:10 於 "James Heilman" <[hidden email]> 寫道:
>
> > Thanks Kirill
> >
> > In my opinion this is reasonable. We need to have criteria for what
> > affiliation with the movement means and what it requires from those
> > affiliated. If the requirements are consistently not met than removing
> > official affiliation until it is is simply common practice.
> >
> > James
> >
> > On Wednesday, February 8, 2017, Kirill Lokshin <[hidden email]
> >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi everyone,
> > >
> > > Recognition as a Wikimedia movement affiliate — a chapter, thematic
> > > organization, or user group — is a privilege that allows an independent
> > > group to officially use the Wikimedia trademarks to further the
> Wikimedia
> > > mission. While most affiliates adhere to the basic compliance standards
> > set
> > > forth in their agreements with the Wikimedia Foundation, a protocol has
> > > been developed to address the exceptional cases when a Wikimedia
> movement
> > > affiliate does not meet basic compliance standards and their continued
> > > recognition as a Wikimedia movement affiliate presents a risk to the
> > > Wikimedia movement.
> > >
> > > On September 9, 2016, Wikimedia Hong Kong was notified of their
> > suspension
> > > as a Wikimedia affiliate due to long standing non-compliance with
> > reporting
> > > requirements, and was provided with an explicit list of tasks and
> > deadlines
> > > in order to return to compliance with their chapter agreement. The
> > chapter
> > > failed to complete these tasks by the deadline of November 1, 2016, and
> > was
> > > consequently notified that they would no longer be recognized as a
> > > Wikimedia chapter after the termination of their Chapter Agreement on
> > > February 1, 2017.
> > >
> > > If you have questions about what this means for the community members
> in
> > > Wikimedia Hong Kong’s geographic area or language scope, we have put
> > > together a very basic FAQ, which may be found at
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_movement_
> > > affiliate_de-recognition_FAQ
> > > .
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Kirill Lokshin
> > > Vice-Chair, Affiliations Committee
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: [hidden email] <javascript:;>
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email] <javascript:;>
> > > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > James Heilman
> > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> >
> > The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
_______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Chapter De-Recognition: Wikimedia Hong Kong

Delphine Ménard
In reply to this post by Rover Wong
Hello Rover,

I want to thank you and your team for so much work, and so much great work.
This decision was difficult for everyone, and I am glad to see that it has
come to a conclusion. I think it's important to know how to pause and
breathe deeply sometimes. I am looking forward to seeing more work from
Hong Kong, in an easier environement.

Best regards,

Delphine

On 8 February 2017 at 12:48, Wong Rover <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> On behalf of WMHK, I would like to say something.
>
> Some may think it is pity that WMHK has been de-recognized. But the board
> of WMHK has actually already decided to disband the chapter.
>
> Although WMHK will cease to exist, I still hope the other chapters will
> continue to try their best in the Wikimedia movement.
>
> Regards,
> Rover Wong
> the last president of Wikimedia Hong Kong
>
> 2017年2月8日 下午7:10 於 "James Heilman" <[hidden email]> 寫道:
>
> > Thanks Kirill
> >
> > In my opinion this is reasonable. We need to have criteria for what
> > affiliation with the movement means and what it requires from those
> > affiliated. If the requirements are consistently not met than removing
> > official affiliation until it is is simply common practice.
> >
> > James
> >
> > On Wednesday, February 8, 2017, Kirill Lokshin <[hidden email]
> >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi everyone,
> > >
> > > Recognition as a Wikimedia movement affiliate — a chapter, thematic
> > > organization, or user group — is a privilege that allows an independent
> > > group to officially use the Wikimedia trademarks to further the
> Wikimedia
> > > mission. While most affiliates adhere to the basic compliance standards
> > set
> > > forth in their agreements with the Wikimedia Foundation, a protocol has
> > > been developed to address the exceptional cases when a Wikimedia
> movement
> > > affiliate does not meet basic compliance standards and their continued
> > > recognition as a Wikimedia movement affiliate presents a risk to the
> > > Wikimedia movement.
> > >
> > > On September 9, 2016, Wikimedia Hong Kong was notified of their
> > suspension
> > > as a Wikimedia affiliate due to long standing non-compliance with
> > reporting
> > > requirements, and was provided with an explicit list of tasks and
> > deadlines
> > > in order to return to compliance with their chapter agreement. The
> > chapter
> > > failed to complete these tasks by the deadline of November 1, 2016, and
> > was
> > > consequently notified that they would no longer be recognized as a
> > > Wikimedia chapter after the termination of their Chapter Agreement on
> > > February 1, 2017.
> > >
> > > If you have questions about what this means for the community members
> in
> > > Wikimedia Hong Kong’s geographic area or language scope, we have put
> > > together a very basic FAQ, which may be found at
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_movement_
> > > affiliate_de-recognition_FAQ
> > > .
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Kirill Lokshin
> > > Vice-Chair, Affiliations Committee
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: [hidden email] <javascript:;>
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email] <javascript:;>
> > > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > James Heilman
> > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
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> > The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine
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