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[Wikimedia-l] Dispute between Common and Outreach

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Mister Thrapostibongles

[Wikimedia-l] Dispute between Common and Outreach

Hello all,

There seems to be a dispute between the Outreach and the Commons components
of The Community, judging by the article "Wikimedia Commons: a highly
hostile place for multimedia students contributions" at the Education
Newsletter

https://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/Education/News/April_2019/Wikimedia_Commons:_a_highly_hostile_place_for_multimedia_students_contributions

As far as I can understand it, some students on an Outreach project
uploaded some rather well-made video material, and comeone on Commons
deleted them because they appeared to well-made to be student projects and
so concluded they were copyright violations. But some rather odd remarks
were made "Commons has to fight the endless stream of uploaded copyrighted
content on behalf of a headquarters in San Francisco that doesn't care." and
"you have regarded Commons as little more than free cloud storage for
images you intend to use on Wikipedia ".

Perhaps the Foundation needs to resolve this dispute?

Thrapostibongles
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Tomasz Ganicz

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Dispute between Common and Outreach

Well, Actually, at the moment it looks they are all undeleted.

The good habit - which I was keeping when organizing several GLAM-related
mass uploads - was to create on Commons project page describing what it is
intended to be uploaded, preferably in English. Then you can create a
project template to mark all uploads with them.

See: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Partnerships

Despite practical issue of avoiding unnecessary clashes with Common's
admins - creating template and project page helps to promote you project
across Wikimedia communities and may inspire others to do something similar.

Commons is indeed quite hostile environment for uploaders, but on the other
hand it is constantly flooded by hundreds of copyright violating files a
day:

See the list from just one day:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/2019/05/01

so this hostility works both ways - Common's admins have to cope with
aggressive hostile copyright violators every day, and after some time -
decide to leave or became being hostile themselves... and the other issue
is decreasing number of active admins and OTRS agents.

I think - sooner or later - all this system - uploads - screening uploads
by admins, and OTRS agreements - needs deep rethinking.

niedz., 12 maj 2019 o 10:48 Mister Thrapostibongles <
[hidden email]> napisał(a):

> Hello all,
>
> There seems to be a dispute between the Outreach and the Commons components
> of The Community, judging by the article "Wikimedia Commons: a highly
> hostile place for multimedia students contributions" at the Education
> Newsletter
>
>
> https://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/Education/News/April_2019/Wikimedia_Commons:_a_highly_hostile_place_for_multimedia_students_contributions
>
> As far as I can understand it, some students on an Outreach project
> uploaded some rather well-made video material, and comeone on Commons
> deleted them because they appeared to well-made to be student projects and
> so concluded they were copyright violations. But some rather odd remarks
> were made "Commons has to fight the endless stream of uploaded copyrighted
> content on behalf of a headquarters in San Francisco that doesn't care."
> and
> "you have regarded Commons as little more than free cloud storage for
> images you intend to use on Wikipedia ".
>
> Perhaps the Foundation needs to resolve this dispute?
>
> Thrapostibongles
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>

--
Tomek "Polimerek" Ganicz
http://pl.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Polimerek
http://www.ganicz.pl/poli/
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
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Benjamin Ikuta

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Dispute between Common and Outreach

Is the shortage of admins due to a lack of people willing or capable to do the job, or increasing difficulty in obtaining the bit?

On May 12, 2019, at 3:55 AM, Tomasz Ganicz <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Well, Actually, at the moment it looks they are all undeleted.
>
> The good habit - which I was keeping when organizing several GLAM-related
> mass uploads - was to create on Commons project page describing what it is
> intended to be uploaded, preferably in English. Then you can create a
> project template to mark all uploads with them.
>
> See: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Partnerships
>
> Despite practical issue of avoiding unnecessary clashes with Common's
> admins - creating template and project page helps to promote you project
> across Wikimedia communities and may inspire others to do something similar.
>
> Commons is indeed quite hostile environment for uploaders, but on the other
> hand it is constantly flooded by hundreds of copyright violating files a
> day:
>
> See the list from just one day:
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/2019/05/01
>
> so this hostility works both ways - Common's admins have to cope with
> aggressive hostile copyright violators every day, and after some time -
> decide to leave or became being hostile themselves... and the other issue
> is decreasing number of active admins and OTRS agents.
>
> I think - sooner or later - all this system - uploads - screening uploads
> by admins, and OTRS agreements - needs deep rethinking.
>
>
> niedz., 12 maj 2019 o 10:48 Mister Thrapostibongles <
> [hidden email]> napisał(a):
>
>> Hello all,
>>
>> There seems to be a dispute between the Outreach and the Commons components
>> of The Community, judging by the article "Wikimedia Commons: a highly
>> hostile place for multimedia students contributions" at the Education
>> Newsletter
>>
>>
>> https://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/Education/News/April_2019/Wikimedia_Commons:_a_highly_hostile_place_for_multimedia_students_contributions
>>
>> As far as I can understand it, some students on an Outreach project
>> uploaded some rather well-made video material, and comeone on Commons
>> deleted them because they appeared to well-made to be student projects and
>> so concluded they were copyright violations. But some rather odd remarks
>> were made "Commons has to fight the endless stream of uploaded copyrighted
>> content on behalf of a headquarters in San Francisco that doesn't care."
>> and
>> "you have regarded Commons as little more than free cloud storage for
>> images you intend to use on Wikipedia ".
>>
>> Perhaps the Foundation needs to resolve this dispute?
>>
>> Thrapostibongles
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> New messages to: [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
>
> --
> Tomek "Polimerek" Ganicz
> http://pl.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Polimerek
> http://www.ganicz.pl/poli/
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>

Yaroslav Blanter

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Dispute between Common and Outreach

Just the active community itself is too small, compared with the amount of
material it has to deal with.

Cheers
Yaroslav

On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 1:07 PM Benjamin Ikuta <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>
>
>
> Is the shortage of admins due to a lack of people willing or capable to do
> the job, or increasing difficulty in obtaining the bit?
>
>
>
> On May 12, 2019, at 3:55 AM, Tomasz Ganicz <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Well, Actually, at the moment it looks they are all undeleted.
> >
> > The good habit - which I was keeping when organizing several GLAM-related
> > mass uploads - was to create on Commons project page describing what it
> is
> > intended to be uploaded, preferably in English. Then you can create a
> > project template to mark all uploads with them.
> >
> > See: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Partnerships
> >
> > Despite practical issue of avoiding unnecessary clashes with Common's
> > admins - creating template and project page helps to promote you project
> > across Wikimedia communities and may inspire others to do something
> similar.
> >
> > Commons is indeed quite hostile environment for uploaders, but on the
> other
> > hand it is constantly flooded by hundreds of copyright violating files a
> > day:
> >
> > See the list from just one day:
> >
> > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/2019/05/01
> >
> > so this hostility works both ways - Common's admins have to cope with
> > aggressive hostile copyright violators every day, and after some time -
> > decide to leave or became being hostile themselves... and the other issue
> > is decreasing number of active admins and OTRS agents.
> >
> > I think - sooner or later - all this system - uploads - screening uploads
> > by admins, and OTRS agreements - needs deep rethinking.
> >
> >
> > niedz., 12 maj 2019 o 10:48 Mister Thrapostibongles <
> > [hidden email]> napisał(a):
> >
> >> Hello all,
> >>
> >> There seems to be a dispute between the Outreach and the Commons
> components
> >> of The Community, judging by the article "Wikimedia Commons: a highly
> >> hostile place for multimedia students contributions" at the Education
> >> Newsletter
> >>
> >>
> >>
> https://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/Education/News/April_2019/Wikimedia_Commons:_a_highly_hostile_place_for_multimedia_students_contributions
> >>
> >> As far as I can understand it, some students on an Outreach project
> >> uploaded some rather well-made video material, and comeone on Commons
> >> deleted them because they appeared to well-made to be student projects
> and
> >> so concluded they were copyright violations. But some rather odd
> remarks
> >> were made "Commons has to fight the endless stream of uploaded
> copyrighted
> >> content on behalf of a headquarters in San Francisco that doesn't care."
> >> and
> >> "you have regarded Commons as little more than free cloud storage for
> >> images you intend to use on Wikipedia ".
> >>
> >> Perhaps the Foundation needs to resolve this dispute?
> >>
> >> Thrapostibongles
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >> New messages to: [hidden email]
> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> >> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Tomek "Polimerek" Ganicz
> > http://pl.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Polimerek
> > http://www.ganicz.pl/poli/
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>

Amir Sarabadani-2

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Dispute between Common and Outreach

IMO commons need either a Clue Bot NG for new uploads or ores support for
images that might be copyright violation, or both.

Best

On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 1:10 PM Yaroslav Blanter <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Just the active community itself is too small, compared with the amount of
> material it has to deal with.
>
> Cheers
> Yaroslav
>
> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 1:07 PM Benjamin Ikuta <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> > Is the shortage of admins due to a lack of people willing or capable to
> do
> > the job, or increasing difficulty in obtaining the bit?
> >
> >
> >
> > On May 12, 2019, at 3:55 AM, Tomasz Ganicz <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > Well, Actually, at the moment it looks they are all undeleted.
> > >
> > > The good habit - which I was keeping when organizing several
> GLAM-related
> > > mass uploads - was to create on Commons project page describing what it
> > is
> > > intended to be uploaded, preferably in English. Then you can create a
> > > project template to mark all uploads with them.
> > >
> > > See: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Partnerships
> > >
> > > Despite practical issue of avoiding unnecessary clashes with Common's
> > > admins - creating template and project page helps to promote you
> project
> > > across Wikimedia communities and may inspire others to do something
> > similar.
> > >
> > > Commons is indeed quite hostile environment for uploaders, but on the
> > other
> > > hand it is constantly flooded by hundreds of copyright violating
> files a
> > > day:
> > >
> > > See the list from just one day:
> > >
> > >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/2019/05/01
> > >
> > > so this hostility works both ways - Common's admins have to cope with
> > > aggressive hostile copyright violators every day, and after some time -
> > > decide to leave or became being hostile themselves... and the other
> issue
> > > is decreasing number of active admins and OTRS agents.
> > >
> > > I think - sooner or later - all this system - uploads - screening
> uploads
> > > by admins, and OTRS agreements - needs deep rethinking.
> > >
> > >
> > > niedz., 12 maj 2019 o 10:48 Mister Thrapostibongles <
> > > [hidden email]> napisał(a):
> > >
> > >> Hello all,
> > >>
> > >> There seems to be a dispute between the Outreach and the Commons
> > components
> > >> of The Community, judging by the article "Wikimedia Commons: a highly
> > >> hostile place for multimedia students contributions" at the Education
> > >> Newsletter
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> >
> https://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/Education/News/April_2019/Wikimedia_Commons:_a_highly_hostile_place_for_multimedia_students_contributions
> > >>
> > >> As far as I can understand it, some students on an Outreach project
> > >> uploaded some rather well-made video material, and comeone on Commons
> > >> deleted them because they appeared to well-made to be student projects
> > and
> > >> so concluded they were copyright violations. But some rather odd
> > remarks
> > >> were made "Commons has to fight the endless stream of uploaded
> > copyrighted
> > >> content on behalf of a headquarters in San Francisco that doesn't
> care."
> > >> and
> > >> "you have regarded Commons as little more than free cloud storage for
> > >> images you intend to use on Wikipedia ".
> > >>
> > >> Perhaps the Foundation needs to resolve this dispute?
> > >>
> > >> Thrapostibongles
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > >> New messages to: [hidden email]
> > >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> ,
> > >> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Tomek "Polimerek" Ganicz
> > > http://pl.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Polimerek
> > > http://www.ganicz.pl/poli/
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>

--
Amir (he/him)
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: [hidden email]
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Yann Forget-3

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Dispute between Common and Outreach

In reply to this post by Yaroslav Blanter

Yes, Yaroslav is right. The active community is small compared to the
amount of work to be done.

I have advocated since long that massive training is needed to fix this.
These trainings should be sponsored by the WMF and its affiliates.

Regards,
Yann Forget
Jai Jagat 2020 Grand March Coordinator
https://www.jaijagat2020.org/
+91-74 34 93 33 58 (also WhatsApp)

Le dim. 12 mai 2019 à 16:40, Yaroslav Blanter <[hidden email]> a écrit :

Fæ

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Dispute between Common and Outreach

In reply to this post by Amir Sarabadani-2

A couple of years ago a proposed project was for the WMF to pay for
access to the Google image matching API access so we could run a
copyvio bot on the live new uploads list. Such a bot would not be
terribly hard to get working, and would be a great experiment to see
if this aspect of the more boring side of sysop tools could be
reduced.[1]

Not specifically advocating auto-deletion, but daily housekeeping
image matches to highly likely copyrighted categories would make mass
housekeeping very easy.

A separate old chestnut was my proposal to introduce systemic image
hashes, which neatly show "close" image matches.[2] With a Commons hat
on, such a project would be of far more immediate pragmatic use than
mobile-related and structured data-related projects that seem to suck
up all the oxygen and volunteer time available.

Note that the history of these project/funding ideas is so long, that
several of the most experienced long term volunteers that were
originally interested have since retired. Without some positive short
term encouragement, not only do these ideas never reach the useful
experiment stage, but the volunteers involved simply fade away.

Links
1. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump/Archive/2016/02#Google_has_opened_an_API_for_image_recognition
2. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/Imagehash

Fae

On Sun, 12 May 2019 at 12:21, Amir Sarabadani <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> IMO commons need either a Clue Bot NG for new uploads or ores support for
> images that might be copyright violation, or both.
>
> Best
>
> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 1:10 PM Yaroslav Blanter <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Just the active community itself is too small, compared with the amount of
> > material it has to deal with.
> >
> > Cheers
> > Yaroslav
> >
> > On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 1:07 PM Benjamin Ikuta <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Is the shortage of admins due to a lack of people willing or capable to
> > do
> > > the job, or increasing difficulty in obtaining the bit?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On May 12, 2019, at 3:55 AM, Tomasz Ganicz <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Well, Actually, at the moment it looks they are all undeleted.
> > > >
> > > > The good habit - which I was keeping when organizing several
> > GLAM-related
> > > > mass uploads - was to create on Commons project page describing what it
> > > is
> > > > intended to be uploaded, preferably in English. Then you can create a
> > > > project template to mark all uploads with them.
> > > >
> > > > See: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Partnerships
> > > >
> > > > Despite practical issue of avoiding unnecessary clashes with Common's
> > > > admins - creating template and project page helps to promote you
> > project
> > > > across Wikimedia communities and may inspire others to do something
> > > similar.
> > > >
> > > > Commons is indeed quite hostile environment for uploaders, but on the
> > > other
> > > > hand it is constantly flooded by hundreds of copyright violating
> > files a
> > > > day:
> > > >
> > > > See the list from just one day:
> > > >
> > > >
> > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/2019/05/01
> > > >
> > > > so this hostility works both ways - Common's admins have to cope with
> > > > aggressive hostile copyright violators every day, and after some time -
> > > > decide to leave or became being hostile themselves... and the other
> > issue
> > > > is decreasing number of active admins and OTRS agents.
> > > >
> > > > I think - sooner or later - all this system - uploads - screening
> > uploads
> > > > by admins, and OTRS agreements - needs deep rethinking.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > niedz., 12 maj 2019 o 10:48 Mister Thrapostibongles <
> > > > [hidden email]> napisał(a):
> > > >
> > > >> Hello all,
> > > >>
> > > >> There seems to be a dispute between the Outreach and the Commons
> > > components
> > > >> of The Community, judging by the article "Wikimedia Commons: a highly
> > > >> hostile place for multimedia students contributions" at the Education
> > > >> Newsletter
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > >
> > https://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/Education/News/April_2019/Wikimedia_Commons:_a_highly_hostile_place_for_multimedia_students_contributions
> > > >>
> > > >> As far as I can understand it, some students on an Outreach project
> > > >> uploaded some rather well-made video material, and comeone on Commons
> > > >> deleted them because they appeared to well-made to be student projects
> > > and
> > > >> so concluded they were copyright violations. But some rather odd
> > > remarks
> > > >> were made "Commons has to fight the endless stream of uploaded
> > > copyrighted
> > > >> content on behalf of a headquarters in San Francisco that doesn't
> > care."
> > > >> and
> > > >> "you have regarded Commons as little more than free cloud storage for
> > > >> images you intend to use on Wikipedia ".
> > > >>
> > > >> Perhaps the Foundation needs to resolve this dispute?
> > > >>
> > > >> Thrapostibongles
> > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > >> New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > ,
> > > >> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Tomek "Polimerek" Ganicz
> > > > http://pl.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Polimerek
> > > > http://www.ganicz.pl/poli/
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
>
> --
> Amir (he/him)
> _______________________________________________

[hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
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jmh649

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Dispute between Common and Outreach

It is hard to get the admin bit there aswell. Is Commons interested in
having more admins?

James

On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 5:41 AM Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:

> A couple of years ago a proposed project was for the WMF to pay for
> access to the Google image matching API access so we could run a
> copyvio bot on the live new uploads list. Such a bot would not be
> terribly hard to get working, and would be a great experiment to see
> if this aspect of the more boring side of sysop tools could be
> reduced.[1]
>
> Not specifically advocating auto-deletion, but daily housekeeping
> image matches to highly likely copyrighted categories would make mass
> housekeeping very easy.
>
> A separate old chestnut was my proposal to introduce systemic image
> hashes, which neatly show "close" image matches.[2] With a Commons hat
> on, such a project would be of far more immediate pragmatic use than
> mobile-related and structured data-related projects that seem to suck
> up all the oxygen and volunteer time available.
>
> Note that the history of these project/funding ideas is so long, that
> several of the most experienced long term volunteers that were
> originally interested have since retired. Without some positive short
> term encouragement, not only do these ideas never reach the useful
> experiment stage, but the volunteers involved simply fade away.
>
> Links
> 1.
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump/Archive/2016/02#Google_has_opened_an_API_for_image_recognition
> 2. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/Imagehash
>
> Fae
>
> On Sun, 12 May 2019 at 12:21, Amir Sarabadani <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > IMO commons need either a Clue Bot NG for new uploads or ores support for
> > images that might be copyright violation, or both.
> >
> > Best
> >
> > On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 1:10 PM Yaroslav Blanter <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> > > Just the active community itself is too small, compared with the
> amount of
> > > material it has to deal with.
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > > Yaroslav
> > >
> > > On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 1:07 PM Benjamin Ikuta <
> [hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Is the shortage of admins due to a lack of people willing or capable
> to
> > > do
> > > > the job, or increasing difficulty in obtaining the bit?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On May 12, 2019, at 3:55 AM, Tomasz Ganicz <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Well, Actually, at the moment it looks they are all undeleted.
> > > > >
> > > > > The good habit - which I was keeping when organizing several
> > > GLAM-related
> > > > > mass uploads - was to create on Commons project page describing
> what it
> > > > is
> > > > > intended to be uploaded, preferably in English. Then you can
> create a
> > > > > project template to mark all uploads with them.
> > > > >
> > > > > See: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Partnerships
> > > > >
> > > > > Despite practical issue of avoiding unnecessary clashes with
> Common's
> > > > > admins - creating template and project page helps to promote you
> > > project
> > > > > across Wikimedia communities and may inspire others to do something
> > > > similar.
> > > > >
> > > > > Commons is indeed quite hostile environment for uploaders, but on
> the
> > > > other
> > > > > hand it is constantly flooded by hundreds of copyright violating
> > > files a
> > > > > day:
> > > > >
> > > > > See the list from just one day:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/2019/05/01
> > > > >
> > > > > so this hostility works both ways - Common's admins have to cope
> with
> > > > > aggressive hostile copyright violators every day, and after some
> time -
> > > > > decide to leave or became being hostile themselves... and the other
> > > issue
> > > > > is decreasing number of active admins and OTRS agents.
> > > > >
> > > > > I think - sooner or later - all this system - uploads - screening
> > > uploads
> > > > > by admins, and OTRS agreements - needs deep rethinking.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > niedz., 12 maj 2019 o 10:48 Mister Thrapostibongles <
> > > > > [hidden email]> napisał(a):
> > > > >
> > > > >> Hello all,
> > > > >>
> > > > >> There seems to be a dispute between the Outreach and the Commons
> > > > components
> > > > >> of The Community, judging by the article "Wikimedia Commons: a
> highly
> > > > >> hostile place for multimedia students contributions" at the
> Education
> > > > >> Newsletter
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > >
> > >
> https://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/Education/News/April_2019/Wikimedia_Commons:_a_highly_hostile_place_for_multimedia_students_contributions
> > > > >>
> > > > >> As far as I can understand it, some students on an Outreach
> project
> > > > >> uploaded some rather well-made video material, and comeone on
> Commons
> > > > >> deleted them because they appeared to well-made to be student
> projects
> > > > and
> > > > >> so concluded they were copyright violations. But some rather odd
> > > > remarks
> > > > >> were made "Commons has to fight the endless stream of uploaded
> > > > copyrighted
> > > > >> content on behalf of a headquarters in San Francisco that doesn't
> > > care."
> > > > >> and
> > > > >> "you have regarded Commons as little more than free cloud storage
> for
> > > > >> images you intend to use on Wikipedia ".
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Perhaps the Foundation needs to resolve this dispute?
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Thrapostibongles
> > > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > >> New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > >> Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > > ,
> > > > >> <mailto:[hidden email]
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Tomek "Polimerek" Ganicz
> > > > > http://pl.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Polimerek
> > > > > http://www.ganicz.pl/poli/
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Amir (he/him)
> > _______________________________________________
> [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>

--
James Heilman
MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: [hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>

Vi to

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Dispute between Common and Outreach

I wonder wheter local sysops could be allowed to delete/undelete images on
commons in order to reduce workload. Most risky commons' uploads come from
cw-upload, allow local sysops to handle them could work.

Vito

Il giorno dom 12 mag 2019 alle ore 15:31 James Heilman <[hidden email]>
ha scritto:

> It is hard to get the admin bit there aswell. Is Commons interested in
> having more admins?
>
> James
>
> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 5:41 AM Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > A couple of years ago a proposed project was for the WMF to pay for
> > access to the Google image matching API access so we could run a
> > copyvio bot on the live new uploads list. Such a bot would not be
> > terribly hard to get working, and would be a great experiment to see
> > if this aspect of the more boring side of sysop tools could be
> > reduced.[1]
> >
> > Not specifically advocating auto-deletion, but daily housekeeping
> > image matches to highly likely copyrighted categories would make mass
> > housekeeping very easy.
> >
> > A separate old chestnut was my proposal to introduce systemic image
> > hashes, which neatly show "close" image matches.[2] With a Commons hat
> > on, such a project would be of far more immediate pragmatic use than
> > mobile-related and structured data-related projects that seem to suck
> > up all the oxygen and volunteer time available.
> >
> > Note that the history of these project/funding ideas is so long, that
> > several of the most experienced long term volunteers that were
> > originally interested have since retired. Without some positive short
> > term encouragement, not only do these ideas never reach the useful
> > experiment stage, but the volunteers involved simply fade away.
> >
> > Links
> > 1.
> >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump/Archive/2016/02#Google_has_opened_an_API_for_image_recognition
> > 2. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/Imagehash
> >
> > Fae
> >
> > On Sun, 12 May 2019 at 12:21, Amir Sarabadani <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > IMO commons need either a Clue Bot NG for new uploads or ores support
> for
> > > images that might be copyright violation, or both.
> > >
> > > Best
> > >
> > > On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 1:10 PM Yaroslav Blanter <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Just the active community itself is too small, compared with the
> > amount of
> > > > material it has to deal with.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers
> > > > Yaroslav
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 1:07 PM Benjamin Ikuta <
> > [hidden email]>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Is the shortage of admins due to a lack of people willing or
> capable
> > to
> > > > do
> > > > > the job, or increasing difficulty in obtaining the bit?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On May 12, 2019, at 3:55 AM, Tomasz Ganicz <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Well, Actually, at the moment it looks they are all undeleted.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The good habit - which I was keeping when organizing several
> > > > GLAM-related
> > > > > > mass uploads - was to create on Commons project page describing
> > what it
> > > > > is
> > > > > > intended to be uploaded, preferably in English. Then you can
> > create a
> > > > > > project template to mark all uploads with them.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > See: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Partnerships
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Despite practical issue of avoiding unnecessary clashes with
> > Common's
> > > > > > admins - creating template and project page helps to promote you
> > > > project
> > > > > > across Wikimedia communities and may inspire others to do
> something
> > > > > similar.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Commons is indeed quite hostile environment for uploaders, but on
> > the
> > > > > other
> > > > > > hand it is constantly flooded by hundreds of copyright violating
> > > > files a
> > > > > > day:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > See the list from just one day:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/2019/05/01
> > > > > >
> > > > > > so this hostility works both ways - Common's admins have to cope
> > with
> > > > > > aggressive hostile copyright violators every day, and after some
> > time -
> > > > > > decide to leave or became being hostile themselves... and the
> other
> > > > issue
> > > > > > is decreasing number of active admins and OTRS agents.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think - sooner or later - all this system - uploads - screening
> > > > uploads
> > > > > > by admins, and OTRS agreements - needs deep rethinking.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > niedz., 12 maj 2019 o 10:48 Mister Thrapostibongles <
> > > > > > [hidden email]> napisał(a):
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> Hello all,
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> There seems to be a dispute between the Outreach and the Commons
> > > > > components
> > > > > >> of The Community, judging by the article "Wikimedia Commons: a
> > highly
> > > > > >> hostile place for multimedia students contributions" at the
> > Education
> > > > > >> Newsletter
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > >
> >
> https://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/Education/News/April_2019/Wikimedia_Commons:_a_highly_hostile_place_for_multimedia_students_contributions
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> As far as I can understand it, some students on an Outreach
> > project
> > > > > >> uploaded some rather well-made video material, and comeone on
> > Commons
> > > > > >> deleted them because they appeared to well-made to be student
> > projects
> > > > > and
> > > > > >> so concluded they were copyright violations. But some rather
> odd
> > > > > remarks
> > > > > >> were made "Commons has to fight the endless stream of uploaded
> > > > > copyrighted
> > > > > >> content on behalf of a headquarters in San Francisco that
> doesn't
> > > > care."
> > > > > >> and
> > > > > >> "you have regarded Commons as little more than free cloud
> storage
> > for
> > > > > >> images you intend to use on Wikipedia ".
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Perhaps the Foundation needs to resolve this dispute?
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Thrapostibongles
> > > > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > > > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > >> New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > >> Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > > > ,
> > > > > >> <mailto:[hidden email]
> > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Tomek "Polimerek" Ganicz
> > > > > > http://pl.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Polimerek
> > > > > > http://www.ganicz.pl/poli/
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Amir (he/him)
> > > _______________________________________________
> > [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
>
> --
> James Heilman
> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>

Isaac Olatunde

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Dispute between Common and Outreach

Not all local sysops have a strong knowledge of image licensing and I think
allowing local sysops not familiar with image licensing and how Commons
community works in general to delete\undelete files would be
counterproductive.

I agree with Yann that training would work. I think resources allocation
and attention should be given to community who wish to train volunteers on
how to contribute to Commons (beyond image uploads)

Regards,

Isaac

On Sun, May 12, 2019, 2:35 PM Vi to <[hidden email] wrote:

> I wonder wheter local sysops could be allowed to delete/undelete images on
> commons in order to reduce workload. Most risky commons' uploads come from
> cw-upload, allow local sysops to handle them could work.
>
> Vito
>
> Il giorno dom 12 mag 2019 alle ore 15:31 James Heilman <[hidden email]>
> ha scritto:
>
> > It is hard to get the admin bit there aswell. Is Commons interested in
> > having more admins?
> >
> > James
> >
> > On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 5:41 AM Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > A couple of years ago a proposed project was for the WMF to pay for
> > > access to the Google image matching API access so we could run a
> > > copyvio bot on the live new uploads list. Such a bot would not be
> > > terribly hard to get working, and would be a great experiment to see
> > > if this aspect of the more boring side of sysop tools could be
> > > reduced.[1]
> > >
> > > Not specifically advocating auto-deletion, but daily housekeeping
> > > image matches to highly likely copyrighted categories would make mass
> > > housekeeping very easy.
> > >
> > > A separate old chestnut was my proposal to introduce systemic image
> > > hashes, which neatly show "close" image matches.[2] With a Commons hat
> > > on, such a project would be of far more immediate pragmatic use than
> > > mobile-related and structured data-related projects that seem to suck
> > > up all the oxygen and volunteer time available.
> > >
> > > Note that the history of these project/funding ideas is so long, that
> > > several of the most experienced long term volunteers that were
> > > originally interested have since retired. Without some positive short
> > > term encouragement, not only do these ideas never reach the useful
> > > experiment stage, but the volunteers involved simply fade away.
> > >
> > > Links
> > > 1.
> > >
> >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump/Archive/2016/02#Google_has_opened_an_API_for_image_recognition
> > > 2. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/Imagehash
> > >
> > > Fae
> > >
> > > On Sun, 12 May 2019 at 12:21, Amir Sarabadani <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > IMO commons need either a Clue Bot NG for new uploads or ores support
> > for
> > > > images that might be copyright violation, or both.
> > > >
> > > > Best
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 1:10 PM Yaroslav Blanter <[hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Just the active community itself is too small, compared with the
> > > amount of
> > > > > material it has to deal with.
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers
> > > > > Yaroslav
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 1:07 PM Benjamin Ikuta <
> > > [hidden email]>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Is the shortage of admins due to a lack of people willing or
> > capable
> > > to
> > > > > do
> > > > > > the job, or increasing difficulty in obtaining the bit?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On May 12, 2019, at 3:55 AM, Tomasz Ganicz <[hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Well, Actually, at the moment it looks they are all undeleted.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The good habit - which I was keeping when organizing several
> > > > > GLAM-related
> > > > > > > mass uploads - was to create on Commons project page describing
> > > what it
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > intended to be uploaded, preferably in English. Then you can
> > > create a
> > > > > > > project template to mark all uploads with them.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > See: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Partnerships
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Despite practical issue of avoiding unnecessary clashes with
> > > Common's
> > > > > > > admins - creating template and project page helps to promote
> you
> > > > > project
> > > > > > > across Wikimedia communities and may inspire others to do
> > something
> > > > > > similar.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Commons is indeed quite hostile environment for uploaders, but
> on
> > > the
> > > > > > other
> > > > > > > hand it is constantly flooded by hundreds of copyright
> violating
> > > > > files a
> > > > > > > day:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > See the list from just one day:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/2019/05/01
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > so this hostility works both ways - Common's admins have to
> cope
> > > with
> > > > > > > aggressive hostile copyright violators every day, and after
> some
> > > time -
> > > > > > > decide to leave or became being hostile themselves... and the
> > other
> > > > > issue
> > > > > > > is decreasing number of active admins and OTRS agents.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I think - sooner or later - all this system - uploads -
> screening
> > > > > uploads
> > > > > > > by admins, and OTRS agreements - needs deep rethinking.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > niedz., 12 maj 2019 o 10:48 Mister Thrapostibongles <
> > > > > > > [hidden email]> napisał(a):
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >> Hello all,
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> There seems to be a dispute between the Outreach and the
> Commons
> > > > > > components
> > > > > > >> of The Community, judging by the article "Wikimedia Commons: a
> > > highly
> > > > > > >> hostile place for multimedia students contributions" at the
> > > Education
> > > > > > >> Newsletter
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> >
> https://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/Education/News/April_2019/Wikimedia_Commons:_a_highly_hostile_place_for_multimedia_students_contributions
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> As far as I can understand it, some students on an Outreach
> > > project
> > > > > > >> uploaded some rather well-made video material, and comeone on
> > > Commons
> > > > > > >> deleted them because they appeared to well-made to be student
> > > projects
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > >> so concluded they were copyright violations. But some rather
> > odd
> > > > > > remarks
> > > > > > >> were made "Commons has to fight the endless stream of uploaded
> > > > > > copyrighted
> > > > > > >> content on behalf of a headquarters in San Francisco that
> > doesn't
> > > > > care."
> > > > > > >> and
> > > > > > >> "you have regarded Commons as little more than free cloud
> > storage
> > > for
> > > > > > >> images you intend to use on Wikipedia ".
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Perhaps the Foundation needs to resolve this dispute?
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Thrapostibongles
> > > > > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > > > > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > >> New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > > >> Unsubscribe:
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > > > > ,
> > > > > > >> <mailto:[hidden email]
> > > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Tomek "Polimerek" Ganicz
> > > > > > > http://pl.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Polimerek
> > > > > > > http://www.ganicz.pl/poli/
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Amir (he/him)
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > James Heilman
> > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
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Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Dispute between Common and Outreach

In reply to this post by Vi to

As I am the author of the post, some remarks:

* Commons is, indeed, the only [cloud] storage for file in most of the Wikipedias. Making an accusation of using Commons as a storage place is unfair and nonsense.
* Communication could be better, of course, but we don't have to think on experienced editors and wikimedians, but on people we are trying to convince to upload to the Commons and find this burden. They don't know how to communicate and why they must do it.
* The upload system allow you to upload something if you are the author. Period.
* Claiming that something is a derivative work without saying which is the original work is not a good practice.
* Of course, commons volunteers are few, and they have a great job-queue. But outreach volunteers are less, and a project like this can take a whole year of volunteer work.
* After all the victim-blaming seen on this discussion no one was able to point to a page where the procedure was clear for everyone.

Let's hope we can follow with this project next year and we will have less problems.

Cheers

Galder
________________________________
From: Wikimedia-l <[hidden email]> on behalf of Vi to <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2019 3:35 PM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Dispute between Common and Outreach

I wonder wheter local sysops could be allowed to delete/undelete images on
commons in order to reduce workload. Most risky commons' uploads come from
cw-upload, allow local sysops to handle them could work.

Vito

Il giorno dom 12 mag 2019 alle ore 15:31 James Heilman <[hidden email]>
ha scritto:

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Andrew Lih

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Dispute between Common and Outreach

This episode exposes a policy of Commons that may be unknown to many folks
- the precautionary principle.

It is an explicit exception to assuming good faith, so I noted this on the
AGF page on Commons.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Commons:Assume_good_faith&oldid=prev&diff=349650525

On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 10:23 AM Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> As I am the author of the post, some remarks:
>
> * Commons is, indeed, the only [cloud] storage for file in most of the
> Wikipedias. Making an accusation of using Commons as a storage place is
> unfair and nonsense.
> * Communication could be better, of course, but we don't have to think
> on experienced editors and wikimedians, but on people we are trying to
> convince to upload to the Commons and find this burden. They don't know how
> to communicate and why they must do it.
> * The upload system allow you to upload something if you are the
> author. Period.
> * Claiming that something is a derivative work without saying which is
> the original work is not a good practice.
> * Of course, commons volunteers are few, and they have a great
> job-queue. But outreach volunteers are less, and a project like this can
> take a whole year of volunteer work.
> * After all the victim-blaming seen on this discussion no one was able
> to point to a page where the procedure was clear for everyone.
>
> Let's hope we can follow with this project next year and we will have less
> problems.
>
> Cheers
>
> Galder
> ________________________________
> From: Wikimedia-l <[hidden email]> on behalf of
> Vi to <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2019 3:35 PM
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Dispute between Common and Outreach
>
> I wonder wheter local sysops could be allowed to delete/undelete images on
> commons in order to reduce workload. Most risky commons' uploads come from
> cw-upload, allow local sysops to handle them could work.
>
> Vito
>
> Il giorno dom 12 mag 2019 alle ore 15:31 James Heilman <[hidden email]>
> ha scritto:
>
> > It is hard to get the admin bit there aswell. Is Commons interested in
> > having more admins?
> >
> > James
> >
> > On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 5:41 AM Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > A couple of years ago a proposed project was for the WMF to pay for
> > > access to the Google image matching API access so we could run a
> > > copyvio bot on the live new uploads list. Such a bot would not be
> > > terribly hard to get working, and would be a great experiment to see
> > > if this aspect of the more boring side of sysop tools could be
> > > reduced.[1]
> > >
> > > Not specifically advocating auto-deletion, but daily housekeeping
> > > image matches to highly likely copyrighted categories would make mass
> > > housekeeping very easy.
> > >
> > > A separate old chestnut was my proposal to introduce systemic image
> > > hashes, which neatly show "close" image matches.[2] With a Commons hat
> > > on, such a project would be of far more immediate pragmatic use than
> > > mobile-related and structured data-related projects that seem to suck
> > > up all the oxygen and volunteer time available.
> > >
> > > Note that the history of these project/funding ideas is so long, that
> > > several of the most experienced long term volunteers that were
> > > originally interested have since retired. Without some positive short
> > > term encouragement, not only do these ideas never reach the useful
> > > experiment stage, but the volunteers involved simply fade away.
> > >
> > > Links
> > > 1.
> > >
> >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump/Archive/2016/02#Google_has_opened_an_API_for_image_recognition
> > > 2. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/Imagehash
> > >
> > > Fae
> > >
> > > On Sun, 12 May 2019 at 12:21, Amir Sarabadani <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > IMO commons need either a Clue Bot NG for new uploads or ores support
> > for
> > > > images that might be copyright violation, or both.
> > > >
> > > > Best
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 1:10 PM Yaroslav Blanter <[hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Just the active community itself is too small, compared with the
> > > amount of
> > > > > material it has to deal with.
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers
> > > > > Yaroslav
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 1:07 PM Benjamin Ikuta <
> > > [hidden email]>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Is the shortage of admins due to a lack of people willing or
> > capable
> > > to
> > > > > do
> > > > > > the job, or increasing difficulty in obtaining the bit?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On May 12, 2019, at 3:55 AM, Tomasz Ganicz <[hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Well, Actually, at the moment it looks they are all undeleted.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The good habit - which I was keeping when organizing several
> > > > > GLAM-related
> > > > > > > mass uploads - was to create on Commons project page describing
> > > what it
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > intended to be uploaded, preferably in English. Then you can
> > > create a
> > > > > > > project template to mark all uploads with them.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > See: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Partnerships
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Despite practical issue of avoiding unnecessary clashes with
> > > Common's
> > > > > > > admins - creating template and project page helps to promote
> you
> > > > > project
> > > > > > > across Wikimedia communities and may inspire others to do
> > something
> > > > > > similar.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Commons is indeed quite hostile environment for uploaders, but
> on
> > > the
> > > > > > other
> > > > > > > hand it is constantly flooded by hundreds of copyright
> violating
> > > > > files a
> > > > > > > day:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > See the list from just one day:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/2019/05/01
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > so this hostility works both ways - Common's admins have to
> cope
> > > with
> > > > > > > aggressive hostile copyright violators every day, and after
> some
> > > time -
> > > > > > > decide to leave or became being hostile themselves... and the
> > other
> > > > > issue
> > > > > > > is decreasing number of active admins and OTRS agents.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I think - sooner or later - all this system - uploads -
> screening
> > > > > uploads
> > > > > > > by admins, and OTRS agreements - needs deep rethinking.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > niedz., 12 maj 2019 o 10:48 Mister Thrapostibongles <
> > > > > > > [hidden email]> napisał(a):
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >> Hello all,
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> There seems to be a dispute between the Outreach and the
> Commons
> > > > > > components
> > > > > > >> of The Community, judging by the article "Wikimedia Commons: a
> > > highly
> > > > > > >> hostile place for multimedia students contributions" at the
> > > Education
> > > > > > >> Newsletter
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> >
> https://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/Education/News/April_2019/Wikimedia_Commons:_a_highly_hostile_place_for_multimedia_students_contributions
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> As far as I can understand it, some students on an Outreach
> > > project
> > > > > > >> uploaded some rather well-made video material, and comeone on
> > > Commons
> > > > > > >> deleted them because they appeared to well-made to be student
> > > projects
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > >> so concluded they were copyright violations. But some rather
> > odd
> > > > > > remarks
> > > > > > >> were made "Commons has to fight the endless stream of uploaded
> > > > > > copyrighted
> > > > > > >> content on behalf of a headquarters in San Francisco that
> > doesn't
> > > > > care."
> > > > > > >> and
> > > > > > >> "you have regarded Commons as little more than free cloud
> > storage
> > > for
> > > > > > >> images you intend to use on Wikipedia ".
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Perhaps the Foundation needs to resolve this dispute?
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Thrapostibongles
> > > > > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > > > > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > >> New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > > >> Unsubscribe:
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > > > > ,
> > > > > > >> <mailto:[hidden email]
> > > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Tomek "Polimerek" Ganicz
> > > > > > > http://pl.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Polimerek
> > > > > > > http://www.ganicz.pl/poli/
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Amir (he/him)
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > James Heilman
> > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
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--
-Andrew Lih
Author of The Wikipedia Revolution
US National Archives Citizen Archivist of the Year (2016)
Knight Foundation grant recipient - Wikipedia Space (2015)
Wikimedia DC - Outreach and GLAM
Previously: professor of journalism and communications, American
University, Columbia University, USC
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Tomasz Ganicz

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Dispute between Common and Outreach

In reply to this post by Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga

niedz., 12 maj 2019 o 16:23 Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga <[hidden email]>
napisał(a):

> As I am the author of the post, some remarks:
>
> * Commons is, indeed, the only [cloud] storage for file in most of the
> Wikipedias. Making an accusation of using Commons as a storage place is
> unfair and nonsense.
>

I think - what someone wanted to say - is that Commons is wiki with its own
community, which desire some respect as any other wikimedia communities. In
that sense - it is not cloud service which are usually maintained
automatically. It is better to think about Commons - as a wiki - not as a
cloud storage service.

* Communication could be better, of course, but we don't have to think
> on experienced editors and wikimedians, but on people we are trying to
> convince to upload to the Commons and find this burden. They don't know how
> to communicate and why they must do it.
>

That's true - therefore - when you organize any outreach or GLAM project it
is good to teach the users how to communicate on wiki - as it is a quite
strange system comparing to what typical internet user might be accustomed
to, nowadays.

* The upload system allow you to upload something if you are the
> author. Period.
>

Yes. Exactly. If you think about default upload wizard - it is possible to
upload other's works, but it is not that easy. Also - it is pretty hard to
upload public domain works.

* Of course, commons volunteers are few, and they have a great
> job-queue. But outreach volunteers are less, and a project like this can
> take a whole year of volunteer work.
>

Well - this is disputable. I don't know global proportions - but for
example for Polish part of community - there are actually 3 employees doing
outreach and around 10 volunteers - and there are 3 really active Polish
Common's admins and only one regularly active OTRS agent (me)... Out of
these 3 really active Common's admins - 2 are actually also doing outreach.
And in fact - probably the best thing would be to have in any outreach team
at least one person having good knowledge about hostile Common's habits and
how to effectively cope with them :-)

* After all the victim-blaming seen on this discussion no one was able
> to point to a page where the procedure was clear for everyone.
>

Yeah. Because there is no any single page on Commons that might solve your
problems. This is the other issue - Common's help pages are well.. far
from being perfect.

Let's hope we can follow with this project next year and we will have less
> problems.
>
>
>
I hope too. This is for sure really interesting project worth any support.

--
Tomek "Polimerek" Ganicz
http://pl.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Polimerek
http://www.ganicz.pl/poli/
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Paulo Santos Perneta

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Dispute between Common and Outreach

In reply to this post by Vi to

I absolutely disagree with this. A Wikipedia sysop do not necessarily has -
and from my experience, most of the time hasn't - the necessary skills to
deal with copyright.

Best,
Paulo

A domingo, 12 de mai de 2019, 14:35, Vi to <[hidden email]>
escreveu:

Mister Thrapostibongles

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Dispute between Common and Outreach

In reply to this post by Fæ

Fae,

I think that what you are describing is essentially the sort of mechanism
that would be mandated by Article 17 on the proposed new European copyright
directive. Since the Foundation has explicitly opposed that, see their
blog post
https://wikimediafoundation.org/2019/03/26/european-parliament-limits-internet-freedom-in-controversial-copyright-vote/
I
presume that they will not permit the use of such an automated system on
their projects.

Thrapostibongles

On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 12:41 PM Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:

Peter Southwood

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Dispute between Common and Outreach

In reply to this post by Mister Thrapostibongles

It seems to be a situation where there were no clear instructions, so people did what they thought was a good idea, but others thought it was a bad idea. No communications, now the blame is being spread without analysing the problem and proposing a solution. Not an unusual situation really.
Cheers,
Peter

-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Mister Thrapostibongles
Sent: 11 May 2019 08:53
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Dispute between Common and Outreach

Hello all,

There seems to be a dispute between the Outreach and the Commons components
of The Community, judging by the article "Wikimedia Commons: a highly
hostile place for multimedia students contributions" at the Education
Newsletter

https://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/Education/News/April_2019/Wikimedia_Commons:_a_highly_hostile_place_for_multimedia_students_contributions

As far as I can understand it, some students on an Outreach project
uploaded some rather well-made video material, and comeone on Commons
deleted them because they appeared to well-made to be student projects and
so concluded they were copyright violations. But some rather odd remarks
were made "Commons has to fight the endless stream of uploaded copyrighted
content on behalf of a headquarters in San Francisco that doesn't care." and
"you have regarded Commons as little more than free cloud storage for
images you intend to use on Wikipedia ".

Perhaps the Foundation needs to resolve this dispute?

Thrapostibongles
_______________________________________________
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Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Dispute between Common and Outreach

Well.. there where instructions. All the videos were supervised before uploading, all the songs were perfectly cited at the descriptions and all the own work was marked as own work. This are the instructiones to follow when uploading to Commons.
________________________________
From: Wikimedia-l <[hidden email]> on behalf of Peter Southwood <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2019 7:59 PM
To: 'Wikimedia Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Dispute between Common and Outreach

It seems to be a situation where there were no clear instructions, so people did what they thought was a good idea, but others thought it was a bad idea. No communications, now the blame is being spread without analysing the problem and proposing a solution. Not an unusual situation really.
Cheers,
Peter

-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Mister Thrapostibongles
Sent: 11 May 2019 08:53
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Dispute between Common and Outreach

Hello all,

There seems to be a dispute between the Outreach and the Commons components
of The Community, judging by the article "Wikimedia Commons: a highly
hostile place for multimedia students contributions" at the Education
Newsletter

https://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/Education/News/April_2019/Wikimedia_Commons:_a_highly_hostile_place_for_multimedia_students_contributions

As far as I can understand it, some students on an Outreach project
uploaded some rather well-made video material, and comeone on Commons
deleted them because they appeared to well-made to be student projects and
so concluded they were copyright violations. But some rather odd remarks
were made "Commons has to fight the endless stream of uploaded copyrighted
content on behalf of a headquarters in San Francisco that doesn't care." and
"you have regarded Commons as little more than free cloud storage for
images you intend to use on Wikipedia ".

Perhaps the Foundation needs to resolve this dispute?

Thrapostibongles
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Paulo Santos Perneta

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Dispute between Common and Outreach

In reply to this post by Peter Southwood

A large part of the problem is the disconnection between online and offline
communities or types of users. It is quite counterproductive having
affiliates, outreach programs, whatever, reaching out to people out to the
Wikimediaverse inviting them to use our projects without having any plans
or means to have someone from the onwiki communities directly following and
monitoring those activities.

As Tomasz wrote: "*And in fact - probably the best thing would be to have
in any outreach team at least one person having good knowledge about
hostile Common's habits and how to effectively cope with them :-)*"

This is very true, and IMO very much inescapable.

Best,
Paulo

Peter Southwood <[hidden email]> escreveu no dia domingo,
12/05/2019 à(s) 18:59:

> It seems to be a situation where there were no clear instructions, so
> people did what they thought was a good idea, but others thought it was a
> bad idea. No communications, now the blame is being spread without
> analysing the problem and proposing a solution. Not an unusual situation
> really.
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of Mister Thrapostibongles
> Sent: 11 May 2019 08:53
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Dispute between Common and Outreach
>
> Hello all,
>
> There seems to be a dispute between the Outreach and the Commons components
> of The Community, judging by the article "Wikimedia Commons: a highly
> hostile place for multimedia students contributions" at the Education
> Newsletter
>
>
> https://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/Education/News/April_2019/Wikimedia_Commons:_a_highly_hostile_place_for_multimedia_students_contributions
>
> As far as I can understand it, some students on an Outreach project
> uploaded some rather well-made video material, and comeone on Commons
> deleted them because they appeared to well-made to be student projects and
> so concluded they were copyright violations. But some rather odd remarks
> were made "Commons has to fight the endless stream of uploaded copyrighted
> content on behalf of a headquarters in San Francisco that doesn't care."
> and
> "you have regarded Commons as little more than free cloud storage for
> images you intend to use on Wikipedia ".
>
> Perhaps the Foundation needs to resolve this dispute?
>
> Thrapostibongles
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
> ---
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Paulo Santos Perneta

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Dispute between Common and Outreach

In reply to this post by Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga

This is true. I verified and restored almost all the files. There was one
or two problems with students who uploaded an occasional derivative work
(integrated in their own work), but almost all the files were OK, and
correctly uploaded. The main problem here, IMO, was marking sourced stuff
as "no source" without any explanation, marking stiff as derivative work
without explaining or stating what the original work was, and then deleting
it uncritically. I understand there is a tremendous backlog in Commons, and
the community is tiny and most of the sysops (on which I include myself)
are generally more interested in other activities than the regular
management of the project, but IMO this sort of behavior should not be seen
as acceptable. IMO it would be preferable to not delete or mark anything at
all, and let the backlog grow freely, than to do it this way. On the other
hand, in general the sysops with this kind of behavior are the most
productive in the whole management of the project, and I feel I've no right
to criticize when I have no plans to regularly help in what they are doing
with such dedication.

Best,
Paulo

Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga <[hidden email]> escreveu no dia domingo,
12/05/2019 à(s) 20:18:

> Well.. there where instructions. All the videos were supervised before
> uploading, all the songs were perfectly cited at the descriptions and all
> the own work was marked as own work. This are the instructiones to follow
> when uploading to Commons.
> ________________________________
> From: Wikimedia-l <[hidden email]> on behalf of
> Peter Southwood <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2019 7:59 PM
> To: 'Wikimedia Mailing List'
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Dispute between Common and Outreach
>
> It seems to be a situation where there were no clear instructions, so
> people did what they thought was a good idea, but others thought it was a
> bad idea. No communications, now the blame is being spread without
> analysing the problem and proposing a solution. Not an unusual situation
> really.
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of Mister Thrapostibongles
> Sent: 11 May 2019 08:53
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Dispute between Common and Outreach
>
> Hello all,
>
> There seems to be a dispute between the Outreach and the Commons components
> of The Community, judging by the article "Wikimedia Commons: a highly
> hostile place for multimedia students contributions" at the Education
> Newsletter
>
>
> https://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/Education/News/April_2019/Wikimedia_Commons:_a_highly_hostile_place_for_multimedia_students_contributions
>
> As far as I can understand it, some students on an Outreach project
> uploaded some rather well-made video material, and comeone on Commons
> deleted them because they appeared to well-made to be student projects and
> so concluded they were copyright violations. But some rather odd remarks
> were made "Commons has to fight the endless stream of uploaded copyrighted
> content on behalf of a headquarters in San Francisco that doesn't care."
> and
> "you have regarded Commons as little more than free cloud storage for
> images you intend to use on Wikipedia ".
>
> Perhaps the Foundation needs to resolve this dispute?
>
> Thrapostibongles
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> https://www.avg.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
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Vi to

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Dispute between Common and Outreach

In reply to this post by Paulo Santos Perneta

Major projects surely deal with a significant amount of uploads in an
efficient way.

Vito

Il giorno dom 12 mag 2019 alle ore 17:31 Paulo Santos Perneta <
[hidden email]> ha scritto:

> I absolutely disagree with this. A Wikipedia sysop do not necessarily has -
> and from my experience, most of the time hasn't - the necessary skills to
> deal with copyright.
>
> Best,
> Paulo
>
> A domingo, 12 de mai de 2019, 14:35, Vi to <[hidden email]>
> escreveu:
>
> > I wonder wheter local sysops could be allowed to delete/undelete images
> on
> > commons in order to reduce workload. Most risky commons' uploads come
> from
> > cw-upload, allow local sysops to handle them could work.
> >
> > Vito
> >
> > Il giorno dom 12 mag 2019 alle ore 15:31 James Heilman <[hidden email]
> >
> > ha scritto:
> >
> > > It is hard to get the admin bit there aswell. Is Commons interested in
> > > having more admins?
> > >
> > > James
> > >
> > > On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 5:41 AM Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > A couple of years ago a proposed project was for the WMF to pay for
> > > > access to the Google image matching API access so we could run a
> > > > copyvio bot on the live new uploads list. Such a bot would not be
> > > > terribly hard to get working, and would be a great experiment to see
> > > > if this aspect of the more boring side of sysop tools could be
> > > > reduced.[1]
> > > >
> > > > Not specifically advocating auto-deletion, but daily housekeeping
> > > > image matches to highly likely copyrighted categories would make mass
> > > > housekeeping very easy.
> > > >
> > > > A separate old chestnut was my proposal to introduce systemic image
> > > > hashes, which neatly show "close" image matches.[2] With a Commons
> hat
> > > > on, such a project would be of far more immediate pragmatic use than
> > > > mobile-related and structured data-related projects that seem to suck
> > > > up all the oxygen and volunteer time available.
> > > >
> > > > Note that the history of these project/funding ideas is so long, that
> > > > several of the most experienced long term volunteers that were
> > > > originally interested have since retired. Without some positive short
> > > > term encouragement, not only do these ideas never reach the useful
> > > > experiment stage, but the volunteers involved simply fade away.
> > > >
> > > > Links
> > > > 1.
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump/Archive/2016/02#Google_has_opened_an_API_for_image_recognition
> > > > 2. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/Imagehash
> > > >
> > > > Fae
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, 12 May 2019 at 12:21, Amir Sarabadani <[hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > IMO commons need either a Clue Bot NG for new uploads or ores
> support
> > > for
> > > > > images that might be copyright violation, or both.
> > > > >
> > > > > Best
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 1:10 PM Yaroslav Blanter <[hidden email]
> >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Just the active community itself is too small, compared with the
> > > > amount of
> > > > > > material it has to deal with.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cheers
> > > > > > Yaroslav
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 1:07 PM Benjamin Ikuta <
> > > > [hidden email]>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Is the shortage of admins due to a lack of people willing or
> > > capable
> > > > to
> > > > > > do
> > > > > > > the job, or increasing difficulty in obtaining the bit?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On May 12, 2019, at 3:55 AM, Tomasz Ganicz <
> [hidden email]>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Well, Actually, at the moment it looks they are all
> undeleted.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The good habit - which I was keeping when organizing several
> > > > > > GLAM-related
> > > > > > > > mass uploads - was to create on Commons project page
> describing
> > > > what it
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > intended to be uploaded, preferably in English. Then you can
> > > > create a
> > > > > > > > project template to mark all uploads with them.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > See: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Partnerships
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Despite practical issue of avoiding unnecessary clashes with
> > > > Common's
> > > > > > > > admins - creating template and project page helps to promote
> > you
> > > > > > project
> > > > > > > > across Wikimedia communities and may inspire others to do
> > > something
> > > > > > > similar.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Commons is indeed quite hostile environment for uploaders,
> but
> > on
> > > > the
> > > > > > > other
> > > > > > > > hand it is constantly flooded by hundreds of copyright
> > violating
> > > > > > files a
> > > > > > > > day:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > See the list from just one day:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/2019/05/01
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > so this hostility works both ways - Common's admins have to
> > cope
> > > > with
> > > > > > > > aggressive hostile copyright violators every day, and after
> > some
> > > > time -
> > > > > > > > decide to leave or became being hostile themselves... and the
> > > other
> > > > > > issue
> > > > > > > > is decreasing number of active admins and OTRS agents.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I think - sooner or later - all this system - uploads -
> > screening
> > > > > > uploads
> > > > > > > > by admins, and OTRS agreements - needs deep rethinking.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > niedz., 12 maj 2019 o 10:48 Mister Thrapostibongles <
> > > > > > > > [hidden email]> napisał(a):
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >> Hello all,
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> There seems to be a dispute between the Outreach and the
> > Commons
> > > > > > > components
> > > > > > > >> of The Community, judging by the article "Wikimedia
> Commons: a
> > > > highly
> > > > > > > >> hostile place for multimedia students contributions" at the
> > > > Education
> > > > > > > >> Newsletter
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/Education/News/April_2019/Wikimedia_Commons:_a_highly_hostile_place_for_multimedia_students_contributions
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> As far as I can understand it, some students on an Outreach
> > > > project
> > > > > > > >> uploaded some rather well-made video material, and comeone
> on
> > > > Commons
> > > > > > > >> deleted them because they appeared to well-made to be
> student
> > > > projects
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > >> so concluded they were copyright violations. But some
> rather
> > > odd
> > > > > > > remarks
> > > > > > > >> were made "Commons has to fight the endless stream of
> uploaded
> > > > > > > copyrighted
> > > > > > > >> content on behalf of a headquarters in San Francisco that
> > > doesn't
> > > > > > care."
> > > > > > > >> and
> > > > > > > >> "you have regarded Commons as little more than free cloud
> > > storage
> > > > for
> > > > > > > >> images you intend to use on Wikipedia ".
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> Perhaps the Foundation needs to resolve this dispute?
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> Thrapostibongles
> > > > > > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> and
> > > > > > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > > >> New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > > > >> Unsubscribe:
> > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > > > > > ,
> > > > > > > >> <mailto:[hidden email]
> > > > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > Tomek "Polimerek" Ganicz
> > > > > > > > http://pl.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Polimerek
> > > > > > > > http://www.ganicz.pl/poli/
> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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> > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
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> > > > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> > > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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> > > > > > _______________________________________________
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> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Amir (he/him)
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > James Heilman
> > > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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