[Wikimedia-l] Dispute between Common and Outreach

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Dispute between Common and Outreach

Isaac Olatunde
Hello Paulo,


Thanks for restoring those images. If images are routinely deleted this
way, I'm afraid it would be difficult to retain new editors. Affiliates
invest a lot of time and resources to recruit new volunteers through
various programs/project and if their uploads are blindly deleted this way,
then it's a problem that needs urgent attention.

I honestly can't think of the best approach at the moment but something
needs to be done.

Regards,

Isaac

On Sun, May 12, 2019, 8:48 PM Paulo Santos Perneta <[hidden email]
wrote:

> This is true. I verified and restored almost all the files. There was one
> or two problems with students who uploaded an occasional derivative work
> (integrated in their own work), but almost all the files were OK, and
> correctly uploaded. The main problem here, IMO, was marking sourced stuff
> as "no source" without any explanation, marking stiff as derivative work
> without explaining or stating what the original work was, and then deleting
> it uncritically. I understand there is a tremendous backlog in Commons, and
> the community is tiny and most of the sysops (on which I include myself)
> are generally more interested in other activities than the regular
> management of the project, but IMO this sort of behavior should not be seen
> as acceptable. IMO it would be preferable to not delete or mark anything at
> all, and let the backlog grow freely, than to do it this way. On the other
> hand, in general the sysops with this kind of behavior are the most
> productive in the whole management of the project, and I feel I've no right
> to criticize when I have no plans to regularly  help in what they are doing
> with such dedication.
>
> Best,
> Paulo
>
> Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga <[hidden email]> escreveu no dia domingo,
> 12/05/2019 à(s) 20:18:
>
> > Well.. there where instructions. All the videos were supervised before
> > uploading, all the songs were perfectly cited at the descriptions and all
> > the own work was marked as own work. This are the instructiones to follow
> > when uploading to Commons.
> > ________________________________
> > From: Wikimedia-l <[hidden email]> on behalf of
> > Peter Southwood <[hidden email]>
> > Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2019 7:59 PM
> > To: 'Wikimedia Mailing List'
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Dispute between Common and Outreach
> >
> > It seems to be a situation where there were no clear instructions, so
> > people did what they thought was a good idea, but others thought it was a
> > bad idea. No communications, now the blame is being spread without
> > analysing the problem and proposing a solution. Not an unusual situation
> > really.
> > Cheers,
> > Peter
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> > Behalf Of Mister Thrapostibongles
> > Sent: 11 May 2019 08:53
> > To: [hidden email]
> > Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Dispute between Common and Outreach
> >
> > Hello all,
> >
> > There seems to be a dispute between the Outreach and the Commons
> components
> > of The Community, judging by the article "Wikimedia Commons: a highly
> > hostile place for multimedia students contributions" at the Education
> > Newsletter
> >
> >
> >
> https://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/Education/News/April_2019/Wikimedia_Commons:_a_highly_hostile_place_for_multimedia_students_contributions
> >
> > As far as I can understand it, some students on an Outreach project
> > uploaded some rather well-made video material, and comeone on Commons
> > deleted them because they appeared to well-made to be student projects
> and
> > so concluded they were copyright violations.  But some rather odd remarks
> > were made "Commons has to fight the endless stream of uploaded
> copyrighted
> > content on behalf of a headquarters in San Francisco that doesn't care."
> > and
> >  "you have regarded Commons as little more than free cloud storage for
> > images you intend to use on Wikipedia ".
> >
> > Perhaps the Foundation needs to resolve this dispute?
> >
> > Thrapostibongles
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> > ---
> > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> > https://www.avg.com
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
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> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
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> _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Dispute between Common and Outreach

Paulo Santos Perneta
In reply to this post by Vi to
Anyone doing Commons stuff has to do have Commons skills. Wikipedia sysops
are not asked to have them, and do not have them by default.

If Wikipedia sysops that deal with copyright want to be Commons admins,
they can apply anytime for that role. Otherwise, render to Caesar the
things that are Caesar's.

Paulo


Vi to <[hidden email]> escreveu no dia domingo, 12/05/2019 à(s)
21:13:

> Major projects surely deal with a significant amount of uploads in an
> efficient way.
>
> Vito
>
> Il giorno dom 12 mag 2019 alle ore 17:31 Paulo Santos Perneta <
> [hidden email]> ha scritto:
>
> > I absolutely disagree with this. A Wikipedia sysop do not necessarily
> has -
> > and from my experience, most of the time hasn't - the necessary skills to
> > deal with copyright.
> >
> > Best,
> > Paulo
> >
> > A domingo, 12 de mai de 2019, 14:35, Vi to <[hidden email]>
> > escreveu:
> >
> > > I wonder wheter local sysops could be allowed to delete/undelete images
> > on
> > > commons in order to reduce workload. Most risky commons' uploads come
> > from
> > > cw-upload, allow local sysops to handle them could work.
> > >
> > > Vito
> > >
> > > Il giorno dom 12 mag 2019 alle ore 15:31 James Heilman <
> [hidden email]
> > >
> > > ha scritto:
> > >
> > > > It is hard to get the admin bit there aswell. Is Commons interested
> in
> > > > having more admins?
> > > >
> > > > James
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 5:41 AM Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > A couple of years ago a proposed project was for the WMF to pay for
> > > > > access to the Google image matching API access so we could run a
> > > > > copyvio bot on the live new uploads list. Such a bot would not be
> > > > > terribly hard to get working, and would be a great experiment to
> see
> > > > > if this aspect of the more boring side of sysop tools could be
> > > > > reduced.[1]
> > > > >
> > > > > Not specifically advocating auto-deletion, but daily housekeeping
> > > > > image matches to highly likely copyrighted categories would make
> mass
> > > > > housekeeping very easy.
> > > > >
> > > > > A separate old chestnut was my proposal to introduce systemic image
> > > > > hashes, which neatly show "close" image matches.[2] With a Commons
> > hat
> > > > > on, such a project would be of far more immediate pragmatic use
> than
> > > > > mobile-related and structured data-related projects that seem to
> suck
> > > > > up all the oxygen and volunteer time available.
> > > > >
> > > > > Note that the history of these project/funding ideas is so long,
> that
> > > > > several of the most experienced long term volunteers that were
> > > > > originally interested have since retired. Without some positive
> short
> > > > > term encouragement, not only do these ideas never reach the useful
> > > > > experiment stage, but the volunteers involved simply fade away.
> > > > >
> > > > > Links
> > > > > 1.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump/Archive/2016/02#Google_has_opened_an_API_for_image_recognition
> > > > > 2. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/Imagehash
> > > > >
> > > > > Fae
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sun, 12 May 2019 at 12:21, Amir Sarabadani <[hidden email]
> >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > IMO commons need either a Clue Bot NG for new uploads or ores
> > support
> > > > for
> > > > > > images that might be copyright violation, or both.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Best
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 1:10 PM Yaroslav Blanter <
> [hidden email]
> > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Just the active community itself is too small, compared with
> the
> > > > > amount of
> > > > > > > material it has to deal with.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Cheers
> > > > > > > Yaroslav
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 1:07 PM Benjamin Ikuta <
> > > > > [hidden email]>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Is the shortage of admins due to a lack of people willing or
> > > > capable
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > do
> > > > > > > > the job, or increasing difficulty in obtaining the bit?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On May 12, 2019, at 3:55 AM, Tomasz Ganicz <
> > [hidden email]>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Well, Actually, at the moment it looks they are all
> > undeleted.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The good habit - which I was keeping when organizing
> several
> > > > > > > GLAM-related
> > > > > > > > > mass uploads - was to create on Commons project page
> > describing
> > > > > what it
> > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > intended to be uploaded, preferably in English. Then you
> can
> > > > > create a
> > > > > > > > > project template to mark all uploads with them.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > See:
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Partnerships
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Despite practical issue of avoiding unnecessary clashes
> with
> > > > > Common's
> > > > > > > > > admins - creating template and project page helps to
> promote
> > > you
> > > > > > > project
> > > > > > > > > across Wikimedia communities and may inspire others to do
> > > > something
> > > > > > > > similar.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Commons is indeed quite hostile environment for uploaders,
> > but
> > > on
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > other
> > > > > > > > > hand it is constantly flooded by hundreds  of copyright
> > > violating
> > > > > > > files a
> > > > > > > > > day:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > See the list from just one day:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/2019/05/01
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > so this hostility works both ways - Common's admins have to
> > > cope
> > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > aggressive hostile copyright violators every day, and after
> > > some
> > > > > time -
> > > > > > > > > decide to leave or became being hostile themselves... and
> the
> > > > other
> > > > > > > issue
> > > > > > > > > is decreasing number of active admins and OTRS agents.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I think - sooner or later - all this system - uploads -
> > > screening
> > > > > > > uploads
> > > > > > > > > by admins, and OTRS agreements - needs deep rethinking.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > niedz., 12 maj 2019 o 10:48 Mister Thrapostibongles <
> > > > > > > > > [hidden email]> napisał(a):
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >> Hello all,
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> There seems to be a dispute between the Outreach and the
> > > Commons
> > > > > > > > components
> > > > > > > > >> of The Community, judging by the article "Wikimedia
> > Commons: a
> > > > > highly
> > > > > > > > >> hostile place for multimedia students contributions" at
> the
> > > > > Education
> > > > > > > > >> Newsletter
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/Education/News/April_2019/Wikimedia_Commons:_a_highly_hostile_place_for_multimedia_students_contributions
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> As far as I can understand it, some students on an
> Outreach
> > > > > project
> > > > > > > > >> uploaded some rather well-made video material, and comeone
> > on
> > > > > Commons
> > > > > > > > >> deleted them because they appeared to well-made to be
> > student
> > > > > projects
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > >> so concluded they were copyright violations.  But some
> > rather
> > > > odd
> > > > > > > > remarks
> > > > > > > > >> were made "Commons has to fight the endless stream of
> > uploaded
> > > > > > > > copyrighted
> > > > > > > > >> content on behalf of a headquarters in San Francisco that
> > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > care."
> > > > > > > > >> and
> > > > > > > > >> "you have regarded Commons as little more than free cloud
> > > > storage
> > > > > for
> > > > > > > > >> images you intend to use on Wikipedia ".
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> Perhaps the Foundation needs to resolve this dispute?
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> Thrapostibongles
> > > > > > > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > and
> > > > > > > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > > > >> New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > >> Unsubscribe:
> > > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > > > > > > ,
> > > > > > > > >> <mailto:[hidden email]
> > > > > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > Tomek "Polimerek" Ganicz
> > > > > > > > > http://pl.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Polimerek
> > > > > > > > > http://www.ganicz.pl/poli/
> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> > > > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> > > > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
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> > > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> > > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Amir (he/him)
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > James Heilman
> > > > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
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> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
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> > _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Dispute between Common and Outreach

Todd Allen
I wouldn't even have any idea what I'd need to do to be a sysop on Commons.
I frequently do find copyvio images and nominate them for deletion on
Commons while working on the English Wikipedia spam queue (and yes, I'm
familiar with copyright law, and they have all, to my knowledge, indeed
been found to be copyvios and deleted), but I wouldn't even have the first
clue to what being a Commons admin would entail or what the expectations
are.

On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 2:28 PM Paulo Santos Perneta <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Anyone doing Commons stuff has to do have Commons skills. Wikipedia sysops
> are not asked to have them, and do not have them by default.
>
> If Wikipedia sysops that deal with copyright want to be Commons admins,
> they can apply anytime for that role. Otherwise, render to Caesar the
> things that are Caesar's.
>
> Paulo
>
>
> Vi to <[hidden email]> escreveu no dia domingo, 12/05/2019 à(s)
> 21:13:
>
> > Major projects surely deal with a significant amount of uploads in an
> > efficient way.
> >
> > Vito
> >
> > Il giorno dom 12 mag 2019 alle ore 17:31 Paulo Santos Perneta <
> > [hidden email]> ha scritto:
> >
> > > I absolutely disagree with this. A Wikipedia sysop do not necessarily
> > has -
> > > and from my experience, most of the time hasn't - the necessary skills
> to
> > > deal with copyright.
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > Paulo
> > >
> > > A domingo, 12 de mai de 2019, 14:35, Vi to <[hidden email]>
> > > escreveu:
> > >
> > > > I wonder wheter local sysops could be allowed to delete/undelete
> images
> > > on
> > > > commons in order to reduce workload. Most risky commons' uploads come
> > > from
> > > > cw-upload, allow local sysops to handle them could work.
> > > >
> > > > Vito
> > > >
> > > > Il giorno dom 12 mag 2019 alle ore 15:31 James Heilman <
> > [hidden email]
> > > >
> > > > ha scritto:
> > > >
> > > > > It is hard to get the admin bit there aswell. Is Commons interested
> > in
> > > > > having more admins?
> > > > >
> > > > > James
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 5:41 AM Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > A couple of years ago a proposed project was for the WMF to pay
> for
> > > > > > access to the Google image matching API access so we could run a
> > > > > > copyvio bot on the live new uploads list. Such a bot would not be
> > > > > > terribly hard to get working, and would be a great experiment to
> > see
> > > > > > if this aspect of the more boring side of sysop tools could be
> > > > > > reduced.[1]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Not specifically advocating auto-deletion, but daily housekeeping
> > > > > > image matches to highly likely copyrighted categories would make
> > mass
> > > > > > housekeeping very easy.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A separate old chestnut was my proposal to introduce systemic
> image
> > > > > > hashes, which neatly show "close" image matches.[2] With a
> Commons
> > > hat
> > > > > > on, such a project would be of far more immediate pragmatic use
> > than
> > > > > > mobile-related and structured data-related projects that seem to
> > suck
> > > > > > up all the oxygen and volunteer time available.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Note that the history of these project/funding ideas is so long,
> > that
> > > > > > several of the most experienced long term volunteers that were
> > > > > > originally interested have since retired. Without some positive
> > short
> > > > > > term encouragement, not only do these ideas never reach the
> useful
> > > > > > experiment stage, but the volunteers involved simply fade away.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Links
> > > > > > 1.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump/Archive/2016/02#Google_has_opened_an_API_for_image_recognition
> > > > > > 2. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/Imagehash
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Fae
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sun, 12 May 2019 at 12:21, Amir Sarabadani <
> [hidden email]
> > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > IMO commons need either a Clue Bot NG for new uploads or ores
> > > support
> > > > > for
> > > > > > > images that might be copyright violation, or both.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Best
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 1:10 PM Yaroslav Blanter <
> > [hidden email]
> > > >
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Just the active community itself is too small, compared with
> > the
> > > > > > amount of
> > > > > > > > material it has to deal with.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Cheers
> > > > > > > > Yaroslav
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 1:07 PM Benjamin Ikuta <
> > > > > > [hidden email]>
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Is the shortage of admins due to a lack of people willing
> or
> > > > > capable
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > do
> > > > > > > > > the job, or increasing difficulty in obtaining the bit?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On May 12, 2019, at 3:55 AM, Tomasz Ganicz <
> > > [hidden email]>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Well, Actually, at the moment it looks they are all
> > > undeleted.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > The good habit - which I was keeping when organizing
> > several
> > > > > > > > GLAM-related
> > > > > > > > > > mass uploads - was to create on Commons project page
> > > describing
> > > > > > what it
> > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > intended to be uploaded, preferably in English. Then you
> > can
> > > > > > create a
> > > > > > > > > > project template to mark all uploads with them.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > See:
> > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Partnerships
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Despite practical issue of avoiding unnecessary clashes
> > with
> > > > > > Common's
> > > > > > > > > > admins - creating template and project page helps to
> > promote
> > > > you
> > > > > > > > project
> > > > > > > > > > across Wikimedia communities and may inspire others to do
> > > > > something
> > > > > > > > > similar.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Commons is indeed quite hostile environment for
> uploaders,
> > > but
> > > > on
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > other
> > > > > > > > > > hand it is constantly flooded by hundreds  of copyright
> > > > violating
> > > > > > > > files a
> > > > > > > > > > day:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > See the list from just one day:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/2019/05/01
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > so this hostility works both ways - Common's admins have
> to
> > > > cope
> > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > > aggressive hostile copyright violators every day, and
> after
> > > > some
> > > > > > time -
> > > > > > > > > > decide to leave or became being hostile themselves... and
> > the
> > > > > other
> > > > > > > > issue
> > > > > > > > > > is decreasing number of active admins and OTRS agents.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I think - sooner or later - all this system - uploads -
> > > > screening
> > > > > > > > uploads
> > > > > > > > > > by admins, and OTRS agreements - needs deep rethinking.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > niedz., 12 maj 2019 o 10:48 Mister Thrapostibongles <
> > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]> napisał(a):
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >> Hello all,
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> There seems to be a dispute between the Outreach and the
> > > > Commons
> > > > > > > > > components
> > > > > > > > > >> of The Community, judging by the article "Wikimedia
> > > Commons: a
> > > > > > highly
> > > > > > > > > >> hostile place for multimedia students contributions" at
> > the
> > > > > > Education
> > > > > > > > > >> Newsletter
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/Education/News/April_2019/Wikimedia_Commons:_a_highly_hostile_place_for_multimedia_students_contributions
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> As far as I can understand it, some students on an
> > Outreach
> > > > > > project
> > > > > > > > > >> uploaded some rather well-made video material, and
> comeone
> > > on
> > > > > > Commons
> > > > > > > > > >> deleted them because they appeared to well-made to be
> > > student
> > > > > > projects
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > >> so concluded they were copyright violations.  But some
> > > rather
> > > > > odd
> > > > > > > > > remarks
> > > > > > > > > >> were made "Commons has to fight the endless stream of
> > > uploaded
> > > > > > > > > copyrighted
> > > > > > > > > >> content on behalf of a headquarters in San Francisco
> that
> > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > > care."
> > > > > > > > > >> and
> > > > > > > > > >> "you have regarded Commons as little more than free
> cloud
> > > > > storage
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > >> images you intend to use on Wikipedia ".
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> Perhaps the Foundation needs to resolve this dispute?
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> Thrapostibongles
> > > > > > > > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > > > > >>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > and
> > > > > > > > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > > > > >> New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > >> Unsubscribe:
> > > > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > > > > > > > ,
> > > > > > > > > >> <mailto:[hidden email]
> > > > > > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > > Tomek "Polimerek" Ganicz
> > > > > > > > > > http://pl.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Polimerek
> > > > > > > > > > http://www.ganicz.pl/poli/
> > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> and
> > > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > > > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> > > > > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> and
> > > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > > > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> > > > > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> > > > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Amir (he/him)
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > James Heilman
> > > > > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
_______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Dispute between Common and Outreach

Isaac Olatunde
The expectations is at
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Administrators#Community role


Regards,

Isaac

On Sun, May 12, 2019, 10:43 PM Todd Allen <[hidden email] wrote:

> I wouldn't even have any idea what I'd need to do to be a sysop on Commons.
> I frequently do find copyvio images and nominate them for deletion on
> Commons while working on the English Wikipedia spam queue (and yes, I'm
> familiar with copyright law, and they have all, to my knowledge, indeed
> been found to be copyvios and deleted), but I wouldn't even have the first
> clue to what being a Commons admin would entail or what the expectations
> are.
>
> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 2:28 PM Paulo Santos Perneta <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Anyone doing Commons stuff has to do have Commons skills. Wikipedia
> sysops
> > are not asked to have them, and do not have them by default.
> >
> > If Wikipedia sysops that deal with copyright want to be Commons admins,
> > they can apply anytime for that role. Otherwise, render to Caesar the
> > things that are Caesar's.
> >
> > Paulo
> >
> >
> > Vi to <[hidden email]> escreveu no dia domingo, 12/05/2019 à(s)
> > 21:13:
> >
> > > Major projects surely deal with a significant amount of uploads in an
> > > efficient way.
> > >
> > > Vito
> > >
> > > Il giorno dom 12 mag 2019 alle ore 17:31 Paulo Santos Perneta <
> > > [hidden email]> ha scritto:
> > >
> > > > I absolutely disagree with this. A Wikipedia sysop do not necessarily
> > > has -
> > > > and from my experience, most of the time hasn't - the necessary
> skills
> > to
> > > > deal with copyright.
> > > >
> > > > Best,
> > > > Paulo
> > > >
> > > > A domingo, 12 de mai de 2019, 14:35, Vi to <[hidden email]>
> > > > escreveu:
> > > >
> > > > > I wonder wheter local sysops could be allowed to delete/undelete
> > images
> > > > on
> > > > > commons in order to reduce workload. Most risky commons' uploads
> come
> > > > from
> > > > > cw-upload, allow local sysops to handle them could work.
> > > > >
> > > > > Vito
> > > > >
> > > > > Il giorno dom 12 mag 2019 alle ore 15:31 James Heilman <
> > > [hidden email]
> > > > >
> > > > > ha scritto:
> > > > >
> > > > > > It is hard to get the admin bit there aswell. Is Commons
> interested
> > > in
> > > > > > having more admins?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > James
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 5:41 AM Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > A couple of years ago a proposed project was for the WMF to pay
> > for
> > > > > > > access to the Google image matching API access so we could run
> a
> > > > > > > copyvio bot on the live new uploads list. Such a bot would not
> be
> > > > > > > terribly hard to get working, and would be a great experiment
> to
> > > see
> > > > > > > if this aspect of the more boring side of sysop tools could be
> > > > > > > reduced.[1]
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Not specifically advocating auto-deletion, but daily
> housekeeping
> > > > > > > image matches to highly likely copyrighted categories would
> make
> > > mass
> > > > > > > housekeeping very easy.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > A separate old chestnut was my proposal to introduce systemic
> > image
> > > > > > > hashes, which neatly show "close" image matches.[2] With a
> > Commons
> > > > hat
> > > > > > > on, such a project would be of far more immediate pragmatic use
> > > than
> > > > > > > mobile-related and structured data-related projects that seem
> to
> > > suck
> > > > > > > up all the oxygen and volunteer time available.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Note that the history of these project/funding ideas is so
> long,
> > > that
> > > > > > > several of the most experienced long term volunteers that were
> > > > > > > originally interested have since retired. Without some positive
> > > short
> > > > > > > term encouragement, not only do these ideas never reach the
> > useful
> > > > > > > experiment stage, but the volunteers involved simply fade away.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Links
> > > > > > > 1.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump/Archive/2016/02#Google_has_opened_an_API_for_image_recognition
> > > > > > > 2. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/Imagehash
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Fae
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Sun, 12 May 2019 at 12:21, Amir Sarabadani <
> > [hidden email]
> > > >
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > IMO commons need either a Clue Bot NG for new uploads or ores
> > > > support
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > images that might be copyright violation, or both.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Best
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 1:10 PM Yaroslav Blanter <
> > > [hidden email]
> > > > >
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Just the active community itself is too small, compared
> with
> > > the
> > > > > > > amount of
> > > > > > > > > material it has to deal with.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Cheers
> > > > > > > > > Yaroslav
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 1:07 PM Benjamin Ikuta <
> > > > > > > [hidden email]>
> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Is the shortage of admins due to a lack of people willing
> > or
> > > > > > capable
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > do
> > > > > > > > > > the job, or increasing difficulty in obtaining the bit?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On May 12, 2019, at 3:55 AM, Tomasz Ganicz <
> > > > [hidden email]>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Well, Actually, at the moment it looks they are all
> > > > undeleted.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > The good habit - which I was keeping when organizing
> > > several
> > > > > > > > > GLAM-related
> > > > > > > > > > > mass uploads - was to create on Commons project page
> > > > describing
> > > > > > > what it
> > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > intended to be uploaded, preferably in English. Then
> you
> > > can
> > > > > > > create a
> > > > > > > > > > > project template to mark all uploads with them.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > See:
> > > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Partnerships
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Despite practical issue of avoiding unnecessary clashes
> > > with
> > > > > > > Common's
> > > > > > > > > > > admins - creating template and project page helps to
> > > promote
> > > > > you
> > > > > > > > > project
> > > > > > > > > > > across Wikimedia communities and may inspire others to
> do
> > > > > > something
> > > > > > > > > > similar.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Commons is indeed quite hostile environment for
> > uploaders,
> > > > but
> > > > > on
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > other
> > > > > > > > > > > hand it is constantly flooded by hundreds  of copyright
> > > > > violating
> > > > > > > > > files a
> > > > > > > > > > > day:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > See the list from just one day:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/2019/05/01
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > so this hostility works both ways - Common's admins
> have
> > to
> > > > > cope
> > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > > > aggressive hostile copyright violators every day, and
> > after
> > > > > some
> > > > > > > time -
> > > > > > > > > > > decide to leave or became being hostile themselves...
> and
> > > the
> > > > > > other
> > > > > > > > > issue
> > > > > > > > > > > is decreasing number of active admins and OTRS agents.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I think - sooner or later - all this system - uploads -
> > > > > screening
> > > > > > > > > uploads
> > > > > > > > > > > by admins, and OTRS agreements - needs deep rethinking.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > niedz., 12 maj 2019 o 10:48 Mister Thrapostibongles <
> > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]> napisał(a):
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >> Hello all,
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >> There seems to be a dispute between the Outreach and
> the
> > > > > Commons
> > > > > > > > > > components
> > > > > > > > > > >> of The Community, judging by the article "Wikimedia
> > > > Commons: a
> > > > > > > highly
> > > > > > > > > > >> hostile place for multimedia students contributions"
> at
> > > the
> > > > > > > Education
> > > > > > > > > > >> Newsletter
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/Education/News/April_2019/Wikimedia_Commons:_a_highly_hostile_place_for_multimedia_students_contributions
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >> As far as I can understand it, some students on an
> > > Outreach
> > > > > > > project
> > > > > > > > > > >> uploaded some rather well-made video material, and
> > comeone
> > > > on
> > > > > > > Commons
> > > > > > > > > > >> deleted them because they appeared to well-made to be
> > > > student
> > > > > > > projects
> > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > >> so concluded they were copyright violations.  But some
> > > > rather
> > > > > > odd
> > > > > > > > > > remarks
> > > > > > > > > > >> were made "Commons has to fight the endless stream of
> > > > uploaded
> > > > > > > > > > copyrighted
> > > > > > > > > > >> content on behalf of a headquarters in San Francisco
> > that
> > > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > > > care."
> > > > > > > > > > >> and
> > > > > > > > > > >> "you have regarded Commons as little more than free
> > cloud
> > > > > > storage
> > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > >> images you intend to use on Wikipedia ".
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >> Perhaps the Foundation needs to resolve this dispute?
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >> Thrapostibongles
> > > > > > > > > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > > > > > >> New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > >> Unsubscribe:
> > > > > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > > > > > > > > ,
> > > > > > > > > > >> <mailto:[hidden email]
> > > > > > > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > > > Tomek "Polimerek" Ganicz
> > > > > > > > > > > http://pl.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Polimerek
> > > > > > > > > > > http://www.ganicz.pl/poli/
> > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > and
> > > > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > > > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > > > > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > > > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> > > > > > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > and
> > > > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > > > > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > > > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> > > > > > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> and
> > > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > > > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> > > > > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > Amir (he/him)
> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> > > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > James Heilman
> > > > > > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
_______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Dispute between Common and Outreach

Yann Forget-3
In reply to this post by jmh649
Hi James,

Of course. More admins would lesser the work charge, and it would be great.
We specially appreciate admins with multi-language capabilities, as it is a
multilangual project.
Of course, comprehensive knowledge of copyright is needed.
That is complex, but it can be learnt.

Regards,
Yann
Jai Jagat 2020 Grand March Coordinator
https://www.jaijagat2020.org/
+91-74 34 93 33 58 (also WhatsApp)



Le dim. 12 mai 2019 à 19:01, James Heilman <[hidden email]> a écrit :

> It is hard to get the admin bit there aswell. Is Commons interested in
> having more admins?
>
> James
>
> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 5:41 AM Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > A couple of years ago a proposed project was for the WMF to pay for
> > access to the Google image matching API access so we could run a
> > copyvio bot on the live new uploads list. Such a bot would not be
> > terribly hard to get working, and would be a great experiment to see
> > if this aspect of the more boring side of sysop tools could be
> > reduced.[1]
> >
> > Not specifically advocating auto-deletion, but daily housekeeping
> > image matches to highly likely copyrighted categories would make mass
> > housekeeping very easy.
> >
> > A separate old chestnut was my proposal to introduce systemic image
> > hashes, which neatly show "close" image matches.[2] With a Commons hat
> > on, such a project would be of far more immediate pragmatic use than
> > mobile-related and structured data-related projects that seem to suck
> > up all the oxygen and volunteer time available.
> >
> > Note that the history of these project/funding ideas is so long, that
> > several of the most experienced long term volunteers that were
> > originally interested have since retired. Without some positive short
> > term encouragement, not only do these ideas never reach the useful
> > experiment stage, but the volunteers involved simply fade away.
> >
> > Links
> > 1.
> >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump/Archive/2016/02#Google_has_opened_an_API_for_image_recognition
> > 2. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/Imagehash
> >
> > Fae
> >
> > On Sun, 12 May 2019 at 12:21, Amir Sarabadani <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > IMO commons need either a Clue Bot NG for new uploads or ores support
> for
> > > images that might be copyright violation, or both.
> > >
> > > Best
> > >
> > > On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 1:10 PM Yaroslav Blanter <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Just the active community itself is too small, compared with the
> > amount of
> > > > material it has to deal with.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers
> > > > Yaroslav
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 1:07 PM Benjamin Ikuta <
> > [hidden email]>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Is the shortage of admins due to a lack of people willing or
> capable
> > to
> > > > do
> > > > > the job, or increasing difficulty in obtaining the bit?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On May 12, 2019, at 3:55 AM, Tomasz Ganicz <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Well, Actually, at the moment it looks they are all undeleted.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The good habit - which I was keeping when organizing several
> > > > GLAM-related
> > > > > > mass uploads - was to create on Commons project page describing
> > what it
> > > > > is
> > > > > > intended to be uploaded, preferably in English. Then you can
> > create a
> > > > > > project template to mark all uploads with them.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > See: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Partnerships
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Despite practical issue of avoiding unnecessary clashes with
> > Common's
> > > > > > admins - creating template and project page helps to promote you
> > > > project
> > > > > > across Wikimedia communities and may inspire others to do
> something
> > > > > similar.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Commons is indeed quite hostile environment for uploaders, but on
> > the
> > > > > other
> > > > > > hand it is constantly flooded by hundreds  of copyright violating
> > > > files a
> > > > > > day:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > See the list from just one day:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/2019/05/01
> > > > > >
> > > > > > so this hostility works both ways - Common's admins have to cope
> > with
> > > > > > aggressive hostile copyright violators every day, and after some
> > time -
> > > > > > decide to leave or became being hostile themselves... and the
> other
> > > > issue
> > > > > > is decreasing number of active admins and OTRS agents.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think - sooner or later - all this system - uploads - screening
> > > > uploads
> > > > > > by admins, and OTRS agreements - needs deep rethinking.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > niedz., 12 maj 2019 o 10:48 Mister Thrapostibongles <
> > > > > > [hidden email]> napisał(a):
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> Hello all,
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> There seems to be a dispute between the Outreach and the Commons
> > > > > components
> > > > > >> of The Community, judging by the article "Wikimedia Commons: a
> > highly
> > > > > >> hostile place for multimedia students contributions" at the
> > Education
> > > > > >> Newsletter
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > >
> >
> https://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/Education/News/April_2019/Wikimedia_Commons:_a_highly_hostile_place_for_multimedia_students_contributions
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> As far as I can understand it, some students on an Outreach
> > project
> > > > > >> uploaded some rather well-made video material, and comeone on
> > Commons
> > > > > >> deleted them because they appeared to well-made to be student
> > projects
> > > > > and
> > > > > >> so concluded they were copyright violations.  But some rather
> odd
> > > > > remarks
> > > > > >> were made "Commons has to fight the endless stream of uploaded
> > > > > copyrighted
> > > > > >> content on behalf of a headquarters in San Francisco that
> doesn't
> > > > care."
> > > > > >> and
> > > > > >> "you have regarded Commons as little more than free cloud
> storage
> > for
> > > > > >> images you intend to use on Wikipedia ".
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Perhaps the Foundation needs to resolve this dispute?
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Thrapostibongles
> > > > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > > > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > >> New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > >> Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > > > ,
> > > > > >> <mailto:[hidden email]
> > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Tomek "Polimerek" Ganicz
> > > > > > http://pl.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Polimerek
> > > > > > http://www.ganicz.pl/poli/
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Amir (he/him)
> > > _______________________________________________
> > [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
>
> --
> James Heilman
> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: [hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Dispute between Common and Outreach

Yann Forget-3
In reply to this post by Andrew Lih
This was reverted. It is a dishonest edit with a misleading summary.

Regards,
Yann
Jai Jagat 2020 Grand March Coordinator
https://www.jaijagat2020.org/
+91-74 34 93 33 58 (also WhatsApp)



Le dim. 12 mai 2019 à 19:59, Andrew Lih <[hidden email]> a écrit :

> This episode exposes a policy of Commons that may be unknown to many folks
> - the precautionary principle.
>
> It is an explicit exception to assuming good faith, so I noted this on the
> AGF page on Commons.
>
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Commons:Assume_good_faith&oldid=prev&diff=349650525
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 10:23 AM Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > As I am the author of the post, some remarks:
> >
> >   *   Commons is, indeed, the only [cloud] storage for file in most of
> the
> > Wikipedias. Making an accusation of using Commons as a storage place is
> > unfair and nonsense.
> >   *   Communication could be better, of course, but we don't have to
> think
> > on experienced editors and wikimedians, but on people we are trying to
> > convince to upload to the Commons and find this burden. They don't know
> how
> > to communicate and why they must do it.
> >   *   The upload system allow you to upload something if you are the
> > author. Period.
> >   *   Claiming that something is a derivative work without saying which
> is
> > the original work is not a good practice.
> >   *   Of course, commons volunteers are few, and they have a great
> > job-queue. But outreach volunteers are less, and a project like this can
> > take a whole year of volunteer work.
> >   *   After all the victim-blaming seen on this discussion no one was
> able
> > to point to a page where the procedure was clear for everyone.
> >
> > Let's hope we can follow with this project next year and we will have
> less
> > problems.
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Galder
> > ________________________________
> > From: Wikimedia-l <[hidden email]> on behalf of
> > Vi to <[hidden email]>
> > Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2019 3:35 PM
> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Dispute between Common and Outreach
> >
> > I wonder wheter local sysops could be allowed to delete/undelete images
> on
> > commons in order to reduce workload. Most risky commons' uploads come
> from
> > cw-upload, allow local sysops to handle them could work.
> >
> > Vito
> >
> > Il giorno dom 12 mag 2019 alle ore 15:31 James Heilman <[hidden email]
> >
> > ha scritto:
> >
> > > It is hard to get the admin bit there aswell. Is Commons interested in
> > > having more admins?
> > >
> > > James
> > >
> > > On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 5:41 AM Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > A couple of years ago a proposed project was for the WMF to pay for
> > > > access to the Google image matching API access so we could run a
> > > > copyvio bot on the live new uploads list. Such a bot would not be
> > > > terribly hard to get working, and would be a great experiment to see
> > > > if this aspect of the more boring side of sysop tools could be
> > > > reduced.[1]
> > > >
> > > > Not specifically advocating auto-deletion, but daily housekeeping
> > > > image matches to highly likely copyrighted categories would make mass
> > > > housekeeping very easy.
> > > >
> > > > A separate old chestnut was my proposal to introduce systemic image
> > > > hashes, which neatly show "close" image matches.[2] With a Commons
> hat
> > > > on, such a project would be of far more immediate pragmatic use than
> > > > mobile-related and structured data-related projects that seem to suck
> > > > up all the oxygen and volunteer time available.
> > > >
> > > > Note that the history of these project/funding ideas is so long, that
> > > > several of the most experienced long term volunteers that were
> > > > originally interested have since retired. Without some positive short
> > > > term encouragement, not only do these ideas never reach the useful
> > > > experiment stage, but the volunteers involved simply fade away.
> > > >
> > > > Links
> > > > 1.
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump/Archive/2016/02#Google_has_opened_an_API_for_image_recognition
> > > > 2. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/Imagehash
> > > >
> > > > Fae
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, 12 May 2019 at 12:21, Amir Sarabadani <[hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > IMO commons need either a Clue Bot NG for new uploads or ores
> support
> > > for
> > > > > images that might be copyright violation, or both.
> > > > >
> > > > > Best
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 1:10 PM Yaroslav Blanter <[hidden email]
> >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Just the active community itself is too small, compared with the
> > > > amount of
> > > > > > material it has to deal with.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cheers
> > > > > > Yaroslav
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 1:07 PM Benjamin Ikuta <
> > > > [hidden email]>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Is the shortage of admins due to a lack of people willing or
> > > capable
> > > > to
> > > > > > do
> > > > > > > the job, or increasing difficulty in obtaining the bit?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On May 12, 2019, at 3:55 AM, Tomasz Ganicz <
> [hidden email]>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Well, Actually, at the moment it looks they are all
> undeleted.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The good habit - which I was keeping when organizing several
> > > > > > GLAM-related
> > > > > > > > mass uploads - was to create on Commons project page
> describing
> > > > what it
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > intended to be uploaded, preferably in English. Then you can
> > > > create a
> > > > > > > > project template to mark all uploads with them.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > See: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Partnerships
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Despite practical issue of avoiding unnecessary clashes with
> > > > Common's
> > > > > > > > admins - creating template and project page helps to promote
> > you
> > > > > > project
> > > > > > > > across Wikimedia communities and may inspire others to do
> > > something
> > > > > > > similar.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Commons is indeed quite hostile environment for uploaders,
> but
> > on
> > > > the
> > > > > > > other
> > > > > > > > hand it is constantly flooded by hundreds  of copyright
> > violating
> > > > > > files a
> > > > > > > > day:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > See the list from just one day:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/2019/05/01
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > so this hostility works both ways - Common's admins have to
> > cope
> > > > with
> > > > > > > > aggressive hostile copyright violators every day, and after
> > some
> > > > time -
> > > > > > > > decide to leave or became being hostile themselves... and the
> > > other
> > > > > > issue
> > > > > > > > is decreasing number of active admins and OTRS agents.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I think - sooner or later - all this system - uploads -
> > screening
> > > > > > uploads
> > > > > > > > by admins, and OTRS agreements - needs deep rethinking.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > niedz., 12 maj 2019 o 10:48 Mister Thrapostibongles <
> > > > > > > > [hidden email]> napisał(a):
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >> Hello all,
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> There seems to be a dispute between the Outreach and the
> > Commons
> > > > > > > components
> > > > > > > >> of The Community, judging by the article "Wikimedia
> Commons: a
> > > > highly
> > > > > > > >> hostile place for multimedia students contributions" at the
> > > > Education
> > > > > > > >> Newsletter
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/Education/News/April_2019/Wikimedia_Commons:_a_highly_hostile_place_for_multimedia_students_contributions
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> As far as I can understand it, some students on an Outreach
> > > > project
> > > > > > > >> uploaded some rather well-made video material, and comeone
> on
> > > > Commons
> > > > > > > >> deleted them because they appeared to well-made to be
> student
> > > > projects
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > >> so concluded they were copyright violations.  But some
> rather
> > > odd
> > > > > > > remarks
> > > > > > > >> were made "Commons has to fight the endless stream of
> uploaded
> > > > > > > copyrighted
> > > > > > > >> content on behalf of a headquarters in San Francisco that
> > > doesn't
> > > > > > care."
> > > > > > > >> and
> > > > > > > >> "you have regarded Commons as little more than free cloud
> > > storage
> > > > for
> > > > > > > >> images you intend to use on Wikipedia ".
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> Perhaps the Foundation needs to resolve this dispute?
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> Thrapostibongles
> > > > > > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> and
> > > > > > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > > >> New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > > > >> Unsubscribe:
> > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > > > > > ,
> > > > > > > >> <mailto:[hidden email]
> > > > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > Tomek "Polimerek" Ganicz
> > > > > > > > http://pl.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Polimerek
> > > > > > > > http://www.ganicz.pl/poli/
> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> > > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> > > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Amir (he/him)
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > James Heilman
> > > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
> --
> -Andrew Lih
> Author of The Wikipedia Revolution
> US National Archives Citizen Archivist of the Year (2016)
> Knight Foundation grant recipient - Wikipedia Space (2015)
> Wikimedia DC - Outreach and GLAM
> Previously: professor of journalism and communications, American
> University, Columbia University, USC
> ---
> Email: [hidden email]
> WEB: https://muckrack.com/fuzheado
> PROJECT: Wikipedia Space: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:WPSPACE
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
_______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Dispute between Common and Outreach

Yann Forget-3
In reply to this post by jmh649
Hi,

To have a clearer image of Commons admins, please see this
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:List_of_administrators_by_recent_activity
There are currently 223 admins (comparing with the English Wikipedia 1,176).
Among them 165 have done one admin action during the last month.
But only around 30 admins have done most of the work.
The content has grown exponentially, but the community has not.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Commons_Growth.svg
https://stats.wikimedia.org/v2/#/commons.wikimedia.org/contributing/active-editors/normal|line|All|~total


Regards,
Yann Forget
Jai Jagat 2020 Grand March Coordinator
https://www.jaijagat2020.org/
+91-74 34 93 33 58 (also WhatsApp)



Le dim. 12 mai 2019 à 19:01, James Heilman <[hidden email]> a écrit :

> It is hard to get the admin bit there aswell. Is Commons interested in
> having more admins?
>
> James
>
> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 5:41 AM Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > A couple of years ago a proposed project was for the WMF to pay for
> > access to the Google image matching API access so we could run a
> > copyvio bot on the live new uploads list. Such a bot would not be
> > terribly hard to get working, and would be a great experiment to see
> > if this aspect of the more boring side of sysop tools could be
> > reduced.[1]
> >
> > Not specifically advocating auto-deletion, but daily housekeeping
> > image matches to highly likely copyrighted categories would make mass
> > housekeeping very easy.
> >
> > A separate old chestnut was my proposal to introduce systemic image
> > hashes, which neatly show "close" image matches.[2] With a Commons hat
> > on, such a project would be of far more immediate pragmatic use than
> > mobile-related and structured data-related projects that seem to suck
> > up all the oxygen and volunteer time available.
> >
> > Note that the history of these project/funding ideas is so long, that
> > several of the most experienced long term volunteers that were
> > originally interested have since retired. Without some positive short
> > term encouragement, not only do these ideas never reach the useful
> > experiment stage, but the volunteers involved simply fade away.
> >
> > Links
> > 1.
> >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump/Archive/2016/02#Google_has_opened_an_API_for_image_recognition
> > 2. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/Imagehash
> >
> > Fae
> >
> > On Sun, 12 May 2019 at 12:21, Amir Sarabadani <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > IMO commons need either a Clue Bot NG for new uploads or ores support
> for
> > > images that might be copyright violation, or both.
> > >
> > > Best
> > >
> > > On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 1:10 PM Yaroslav Blanter <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Just the active community itself is too small, compared with the
> > amount of
> > > > material it has to deal with.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers
> > > > Yaroslav
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 1:07 PM Benjamin Ikuta <
> > [hidden email]>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Is the shortage of admins due to a lack of people willing or
> capable
> > to
> > > > do
> > > > > the job, or increasing difficulty in obtaining the bit?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On May 12, 2019, at 3:55 AM, Tomasz Ganicz <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Well, Actually, at the moment it looks they are all undeleted.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The good habit - which I was keeping when organizing several
> > > > GLAM-related
> > > > > > mass uploads - was to create on Commons project page describing
> > what it
> > > > > is
> > > > > > intended to be uploaded, preferably in English. Then you can
> > create a
> > > > > > project template to mark all uploads with them.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > See: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Partnerships
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Despite practical issue of avoiding unnecessary clashes with
> > Common's
> > > > > > admins - creating template and project page helps to promote you
> > > > project
> > > > > > across Wikimedia communities and may inspire others to do
> something
> > > > > similar.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Commons is indeed quite hostile environment for uploaders, but on
> > the
> > > > > other
> > > > > > hand it is constantly flooded by hundreds  of copyright violating
> > > > files a
> > > > > > day:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > See the list from just one day:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/2019/05/01
> > > > > >
> > > > > > so this hostility works both ways - Common's admins have to cope
> > with
> > > > > > aggressive hostile copyright violators every day, and after some
> > time -
> > > > > > decide to leave or became being hostile themselves... and the
> other
> > > > issue
> > > > > > is decreasing number of active admins and OTRS agents.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think - sooner or later - all this system - uploads - screening
> > > > uploads
> > > > > > by admins, and OTRS agreements - needs deep rethinking.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > niedz., 12 maj 2019 o 10:48 Mister Thrapostibongles <
> > > > > > [hidden email]> napisał(a):
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> Hello all,
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> There seems to be a dispute between the Outreach and the Commons
> > > > > components
> > > > > >> of The Community, judging by the article "Wikimedia Commons: a
> > highly
> > > > > >> hostile place for multimedia students contributions" at the
> > Education
> > > > > >> Newsletter
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > >
> >
> https://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/Education/News/April_2019/Wikimedia_Commons:_a_highly_hostile_place_for_multimedia_students_contributions
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> As far as I can understand it, some students on an Outreach
> > project
> > > > > >> uploaded some rather well-made video material, and comeone on
> > Commons
> > > > > >> deleted them because they appeared to well-made to be student
> > projects
> > > > > and
> > > > > >> so concluded they were copyright violations.  But some rather
> odd
> > > > > remarks
> > > > > >> were made "Commons has to fight the endless stream of uploaded
> > > > > copyrighted
> > > > > >> content on behalf of a headquarters in San Francisco that
> doesn't
> > > > care."
> > > > > >> and
> > > > > >> "you have regarded Commons as little more than free cloud
> storage
> > for
> > > > > >> images you intend to use on Wikipedia ".
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Perhaps the Foundation needs to resolve this dispute?
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Thrapostibongles
> > > > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > > > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > >> New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > >> Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > > > ,
> > > > > >> <mailto:[hidden email]
> > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Tomek "Polimerek" Ganicz
> > > > > > http://pl.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Polimerek
> > > > > > http://www.ganicz.pl/poli/
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Amir (he/him)
> > > _______________________________________________
> > [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
>
> --
> James Heilman
> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: [hidden email]
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Dispute between Common and Outreach

Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga
A good question to ask would be why the admin group is not growing. And maybe (maybe) we can find a common answer to both problems pointed here.
_______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Dispute between Common and Outreach

Peter Southwood
In reply to this post by Yann Forget-3
This looks like a project at risk of collapsing under its own weight.
Cheers,
Peter

-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Yann Forget
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2019 6:48 AM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Dispute between Common and Outreach

Hi,

To have a clearer image of Commons admins, please see this
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:List_of_administrators_by_recent_activity
There are currently 223 admins (comparing with the English Wikipedia 1,176).
Among them 165 have done one admin action during the last month.
But only around 30 admins have done most of the work.
The content has grown exponentially, but the community has not.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Commons_Growth.svg
https://stats.wikimedia.org/v2/#/commons.wikimedia.org/contributing/active-editors/normal|line|All|~total


Regards,
Yann Forget
Jai Jagat 2020 Grand March Coordinator
https://www.jaijagat2020.org/
+91-74 34 93 33 58 (also WhatsApp)



Le dim. 12 mai 2019 à 19:01, James Heilman <[hidden email]> a écrit :

> It is hard to get the admin bit there aswell. Is Commons interested in
> having more admins?
>
> James
>
> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 5:41 AM Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > A couple of years ago a proposed project was for the WMF to pay for
> > access to the Google image matching API access so we could run a
> > copyvio bot on the live new uploads list. Such a bot would not be
> > terribly hard to get working, and would be a great experiment to see
> > if this aspect of the more boring side of sysop tools could be
> > reduced.[1]
> >
> > Not specifically advocating auto-deletion, but daily housekeeping
> > image matches to highly likely copyrighted categories would make mass
> > housekeeping very easy.
> >
> > A separate old chestnut was my proposal to introduce systemic image
> > hashes, which neatly show "close" image matches.[2] With a Commons hat
> > on, such a project would be of far more immediate pragmatic use than
> > mobile-related and structured data-related projects that seem to suck
> > up all the oxygen and volunteer time available.
> >
> > Note that the history of these project/funding ideas is so long, that
> > several of the most experienced long term volunteers that were
> > originally interested have since retired. Without some positive short
> > term encouragement, not only do these ideas never reach the useful
> > experiment stage, but the volunteers involved simply fade away.
> >
> > Links
> > 1.
> >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump/Archive/2016/02#Google_has_opened_an_API_for_image_recognition
> > 2. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/Imagehash
> >
> > Fae
> >
> > On Sun, 12 May 2019 at 12:21, Amir Sarabadani <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > IMO commons need either a Clue Bot NG for new uploads or ores support
> for
> > > images that might be copyright violation, or both.
> > >
> > > Best
> > >
> > > On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 1:10 PM Yaroslav Blanter <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Just the active community itself is too small, compared with the
> > amount of
> > > > material it has to deal with.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers
> > > > Yaroslav
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 1:07 PM Benjamin Ikuta <
> > [hidden email]>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Is the shortage of admins due to a lack of people willing or
> capable
> > to
> > > > do
> > > > > the job, or increasing difficulty in obtaining the bit?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On May 12, 2019, at 3:55 AM, Tomasz Ganicz <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Well, Actually, at the moment it looks they are all undeleted.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The good habit - which I was keeping when organizing several
> > > > GLAM-related
> > > > > > mass uploads - was to create on Commons project page describing
> > what it
> > > > > is
> > > > > > intended to be uploaded, preferably in English. Then you can
> > create a
> > > > > > project template to mark all uploads with them.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > See: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Partnerships
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Despite practical issue of avoiding unnecessary clashes with
> > Common's
> > > > > > admins - creating template and project page helps to promote you
> > > > project
> > > > > > across Wikimedia communities and may inspire others to do
> something
> > > > > similar.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Commons is indeed quite hostile environment for uploaders, but on
> > the
> > > > > other
> > > > > > hand it is constantly flooded by hundreds  of copyright violating
> > > > files a
> > > > > > day:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > See the list from just one day:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/2019/05/01
> > > > > >
> > > > > > so this hostility works both ways - Common's admins have to cope
> > with
> > > > > > aggressive hostile copyright violators every day, and after some
> > time -
> > > > > > decide to leave or became being hostile themselves... and the
> other
> > > > issue
> > > > > > is decreasing number of active admins and OTRS agents.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think - sooner or later - all this system - uploads - screening
> > > > uploads
> > > > > > by admins, and OTRS agreements - needs deep rethinking.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > niedz., 12 maj 2019 o 10:48 Mister Thrapostibongles <
> > > > > > [hidden email]> napisał(a):
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> Hello all,
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> There seems to be a dispute between the Outreach and the Commons
> > > > > components
> > > > > >> of The Community, judging by the article "Wikimedia Commons: a
> > highly
> > > > > >> hostile place for multimedia students contributions" at the
> > Education
> > > > > >> Newsletter
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > >
> >
> https://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/Education/News/April_2019/Wikimedia_Commons:_a_highly_hostile_place_for_multimedia_students_contributions
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> As far as I can understand it, some students on an Outreach
> > project
> > > > > >> uploaded some rather well-made video material, and comeone on
> > Commons
> > > > > >> deleted them because they appeared to well-made to be student
> > projects
> > > > > and
> > > > > >> so concluded they were copyright violations.  But some rather
> odd
> > > > > remarks
> > > > > >> were made "Commons has to fight the endless stream of uploaded
> > > > > copyrighted
> > > > > >> content on behalf of a headquarters in San Francisco that
> doesn't
> > > > care."
> > > > > >> and
> > > > > >> "you have regarded Commons as little more than free cloud
> storage
> > for
> > > > > >> images you intend to use on Wikipedia ".
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Perhaps the Foundation needs to resolve this dispute?
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Thrapostibongles
> > > > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > > > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > >> New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > >> Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > > > ,
> > > > > >> <mailto:[hidden email]
> > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Tomek "Polimerek" Ganicz
> > > > > > http://pl.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Polimerek
> > > > > > http://www.ganicz.pl/poli/
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > _______________________________________________
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> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
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> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Amir (he/him)
> > > _______________________________________________
> > [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
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>
>
>
> --
> James Heilman
> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Dispute between Common and Outreach

Peter Southwood
In reply to this post by Yann Forget-3
The precautionary principle is labelled as an official policy of Commons. I think it should be mentioned on the assume good faith page as it explains why it is sometimes impractical to assume good faith to the extent of allowing  content to remain. If not mentioned, it can lead to severe disappointment and surprise. It should be made very clear to anyone who uploads that this policy may be applied, and why it is necessary. It would also be useful to explain what to do if it is applied where it should not be applied, whether from lack of evidence or for any other reason, and how to avoid the problem.
It might even be advisable to state this policy clearly in the upload wizard. When people have been reasonably warned, they are less likely to be offended.
Cheers,
Peter Southwood

-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Yann Forget
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2019 6:10 AM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Dispute between Common and Outreach

This was reverted. It is a dishonest edit with a misleading summary.

Regards,
Yann
Jai Jagat 2020 Grand March Coordinator
https://www.jaijagat2020.org/
+91-74 34 93 33 58 (also WhatsApp)



Le dim. 12 mai 2019 à 19:59, Andrew Lih <[hidden email]> a écrit :

> This episode exposes a policy of Commons that may be unknown to many folks
> - the precautionary principle.
>
> It is an explicit exception to assuming good faith, so I noted this on the
> AGF page on Commons.
>
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Commons:Assume_good_faith&oldid=prev&diff=349650525
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 10:23 AM Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > As I am the author of the post, some remarks:
> >
> >   *   Commons is, indeed, the only [cloud] storage for file in most of
> the
> > Wikipedias. Making an accusation of using Commons as a storage place is
> > unfair and nonsense.
> >   *   Communication could be better, of course, but we don't have to
> think
> > on experienced editors and wikimedians, but on people we are trying to
> > convince to upload to the Commons and find this burden. They don't know
> how
> > to communicate and why they must do it.
> >   *   The upload system allow you to upload something if you are the
> > author. Period.
> >   *   Claiming that something is a derivative work without saying which
> is
> > the original work is not a good practice.
> >   *   Of course, commons volunteers are few, and they have a great
> > job-queue. But outreach volunteers are less, and a project like this can
> > take a whole year of volunteer work.
> >   *   After all the victim-blaming seen on this discussion no one was
> able
> > to point to a page where the procedure was clear for everyone.
> >
> > Let's hope we can follow with this project next year and we will have
> less
> > problems.
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Galder
> > ________________________________
> > From: Wikimedia-l <[hidden email]> on behalf of
> > Vi to <[hidden email]>
> > Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2019 3:35 PM
> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Dispute between Common and Outreach
> >
> > I wonder wheter local sysops could be allowed to delete/undelete images
> on
> > commons in order to reduce workload. Most risky commons' uploads come
> from
> > cw-upload, allow local sysops to handle them could work.
> >
> > Vito
> >
> > Il giorno dom 12 mag 2019 alle ore 15:31 James Heilman <[hidden email]
> >
> > ha scritto:
> >
> > > It is hard to get the admin bit there aswell. Is Commons interested in
> > > having more admins?
> > >
> > > James
> > >
> > > On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 5:41 AM Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > A couple of years ago a proposed project was for the WMF to pay for
> > > > access to the Google image matching API access so we could run a
> > > > copyvio bot on the live new uploads list. Such a bot would not be
> > > > terribly hard to get working, and would be a great experiment to see
> > > > if this aspect of the more boring side of sysop tools could be
> > > > reduced.[1]
> > > >
> > > > Not specifically advocating auto-deletion, but daily housekeeping
> > > > image matches to highly likely copyrighted categories would make mass
> > > > housekeeping very easy.
> > > >
> > > > A separate old chestnut was my proposal to introduce systemic image
> > > > hashes, which neatly show "close" image matches.[2] With a Commons
> hat
> > > > on, such a project would be of far more immediate pragmatic use than
> > > > mobile-related and structured data-related projects that seem to suck
> > > > up all the oxygen and volunteer time available.
> > > >
> > > > Note that the history of these project/funding ideas is so long, that
> > > > several of the most experienced long term volunteers that were
> > > > originally interested have since retired. Without some positive short
> > > > term encouragement, not only do these ideas never reach the useful
> > > > experiment stage, but the volunteers involved simply fade away.
> > > >
> > > > Links
> > > > 1.
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump/Archive/2016/02#Google_has_opened_an_API_for_image_recognition
> > > > 2. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/Imagehash
> > > >
> > > > Fae
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, 12 May 2019 at 12:21, Amir Sarabadani <[hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > IMO commons need either a Clue Bot NG for new uploads or ores
> support
> > > for
> > > > > images that might be copyright violation, or both.
> > > > >
> > > > > Best
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 1:10 PM Yaroslav Blanter <[hidden email]
> >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Just the active community itself is too small, compared with the
> > > > amount of
> > > > > > material it has to deal with.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cheers
> > > > > > Yaroslav
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 1:07 PM Benjamin Ikuta <
> > > > [hidden email]>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Is the shortage of admins due to a lack of people willing or
> > > capable
> > > > to
> > > > > > do
> > > > > > > the job, or increasing difficulty in obtaining the bit?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On May 12, 2019, at 3:55 AM, Tomasz Ganicz <
> [hidden email]>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Well, Actually, at the moment it looks they are all
> undeleted.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The good habit - which I was keeping when organizing several
> > > > > > GLAM-related
> > > > > > > > mass uploads - was to create on Commons project page
> describing
> > > > what it
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > intended to be uploaded, preferably in English. Then you can
> > > > create a
> > > > > > > > project template to mark all uploads with them.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > See: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Partnerships
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Despite practical issue of avoiding unnecessary clashes with
> > > > Common's
> > > > > > > > admins - creating template and project page helps to promote
> > you
> > > > > > project
> > > > > > > > across Wikimedia communities and may inspire others to do
> > > something
> > > > > > > similar.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Commons is indeed quite hostile environment for uploaders,
> but
> > on
> > > > the
> > > > > > > other
> > > > > > > > hand it is constantly flooded by hundreds  of copyright
> > violating
> > > > > > files a
> > > > > > > > day:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > See the list from just one day:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/2019/05/01
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > so this hostility works both ways - Common's admins have to
> > cope
> > > > with
> > > > > > > > aggressive hostile copyright violators every day, and after
> > some
> > > > time -
> > > > > > > > decide to leave or became being hostile themselves... and the
> > > other
> > > > > > issue
> > > > > > > > is decreasing number of active admins and OTRS agents.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I think - sooner or later - all this system - uploads -
> > screening
> > > > > > uploads
> > > > > > > > by admins, and OTRS agreements - needs deep rethinking.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > niedz., 12 maj 2019 o 10:48 Mister Thrapostibongles <
> > > > > > > > [hidden email]> napisał(a):
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >> Hello all,
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> There seems to be a dispute between the Outreach and the
> > Commons
> > > > > > > components
> > > > > > > >> of The Community, judging by the article "Wikimedia
> Commons: a
> > > > highly
> > > > > > > >> hostile place for multimedia students contributions" at the
> > > > Education
> > > > > > > >> Newsletter
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/Education/News/April_2019/Wikimedia_Commons:_a_highly_hostile_place_for_multimedia_students_contributions
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> As far as I can understand it, some students on an Outreach
> > > > project
> > > > > > > >> uploaded some rather well-made video material, and comeone
> on
> > > > Commons
> > > > > > > >> deleted them because they appeared to well-made to be
> student
> > > > projects
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > >> so concluded they were copyright violations.  But some
> rather
> > > odd
> > > > > > > remarks
> > > > > > > >> were made "Commons has to fight the endless stream of
> uploaded
> > > > > > > copyrighted
> > > > > > > >> content on behalf of a headquarters in San Francisco that
> > > doesn't
> > > > > > care."
> > > > > > > >> and
> > > > > > > >> "you have regarded Commons as little more than free cloud
> > > storage
> > > > for
> > > > > > > >> images you intend to use on Wikipedia ".
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> Perhaps the Foundation needs to resolve this dispute?
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> Thrapostibongles
> > > > > > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> and
> > > > > > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > > >> New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > > > >> Unsubscribe:
> > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > > > > > ,
> > > > > > > >> <mailto:[hidden email]
> > > > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > Tomek "Polimerek" Ganicz
> > > > > > > > http://pl.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Polimerek
> > > > > > > > http://www.ganicz.pl/poli/
> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> > > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> > > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Amir (he/him)
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > James Heilman
> > > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
> --
> -Andrew Lih
> Author of The Wikipedia Revolution
> US National Archives Citizen Archivist of the Year (2016)
> Knight Foundation grant recipient - Wikipedia Space (2015)
> Wikimedia DC - Outreach and GLAM
> Previously: professor of journalism and communications, American
> University, Columbia University, USC
> ---
> Email: [hidden email]
> WEB: https://muckrack.com/fuzheado
> PROJECT: Wikipedia Space: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:WPSPACE
> _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Dispute between Common and Outreach

Peter Southwood
In reply to this post by Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga
It seems that either the instructions were insufficient or not followed properly.
Cheers,
Peter

-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga
Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2019 8:36 PM
To: 'Wikimedia Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Dispute between Common and Outreach

Well.. there where instructions. All the videos were supervised before uploading, all the songs were perfectly cited at the descriptions and all the own work was marked as own work. This are the instructiones to follow when uploading to Commons.
________________________________
From: Wikimedia-l <[hidden email]> on behalf of Peter Southwood <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2019 7:59 PM
To: 'Wikimedia Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Dispute between Common and Outreach

It seems to be a situation where there were no clear instructions, so people did what they thought was a good idea, but others thought it was a bad idea. No communications, now the blame is being spread without analysing the problem and proposing a solution. Not an unusual situation really.
Cheers,
Peter

-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Mister Thrapostibongles
Sent: 11 May 2019 08:53
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Dispute between Common and Outreach

Hello all,

There seems to be a dispute between the Outreach and the Commons components
of The Community, judging by the article "Wikimedia Commons: a highly
hostile place for multimedia students contributions" at the Education
Newsletter

https://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/Education/News/April_2019/Wikimedia_Commons:_a_highly_hostile_place_for_multimedia_students_contributions

As far as I can understand it, some students on an Outreach project
uploaded some rather well-made video material, and comeone on Commons
deleted them because they appeared to well-made to be student projects and
so concluded they were copyright violations.  But some rather odd remarks
were made "Commons has to fight the endless stream of uploaded copyrighted
content on behalf of a headquarters in San Francisco that doesn't care." and
 "you have regarded Commons as little more than free cloud storage for
images you intend to use on Wikipedia ".

Perhaps the Foundation needs to resolve this dispute?

Thrapostibongles
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Dispute between Common and Outreach

Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga
In which sense weren't those instructions followed correctly?
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Dispute between Common and Outreach

Peter Southwood
Please read my post again,
Cheers
P

-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2019 9:29 AM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Dispute between Common and Outreach

In which sense weren't those instructions followed correctly?
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Dispute between Common and Outreach

Peter Southwood
In reply to this post by Tomasz Ganicz
And there is nobody who "must" improve commons help pages as they are all volunteers, so if someone wants better help pages, they can have a go at fixing them. Do be careful about how you go about it, as it must reflect project consensus.  Get agreement on the talk page first for any substantial change to minimise strife.
Cheers,
Peter

-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Tomasz Ganicz
Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2019 5:14 PM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Dispute between Common and Outreach

niedz., 12 maj 2019 o 16:23 Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga <[hidden email]>
napisał(a):

> As I am the author of the post, some remarks:
>
>   *   Commons is, indeed, the only [cloud] storage for file in most of the
> Wikipedias. Making an accusation of using Commons as a storage place is
> unfair and nonsense.
>

I think - what someone wanted to say - is that Commons is wiki with its own
community, which desire some respect as any other wikimedia communities. In
that sense - it is not cloud service which are usually maintained
automatically. It is better to think about Commons - as a wiki - not as a
cloud storage service.


  *   Communication could be better, of course, but we don't have to think
> on experienced editors and wikimedians, but on people we are trying to
> convince to upload to the Commons and find this burden. They don't know how
> to communicate and why they must do it.
>

That's true - therefore - when you organize any outreach or GLAM project it
is good to teach the users how to communicate on wiki - as it is a quite
strange system comparing to what typical internet user might be accustomed
to, nowadays.

  *   The upload system allow you to upload something if you are the
> author. Period.
>

Yes. Exactly. If you think about default upload wizard - it is possible to
upload other's works, but it is not that easy. Also - it is pretty hard to
upload public domain works.

  *   Of course, commons volunteers are few, and they have a great
> job-queue. But outreach volunteers are less, and a project like this can
> take a whole year of volunteer work.
>

Well - this is disputable. I don't know global proportions - but for
example for Polish part of community - there are actually 3 employees doing
outreach and around 10 volunteers - and there are 3 really active Polish
Common's admins and only one regularly active OTRS agent (me)... Out of
these 3 really active Common's admins - 2 are actually also doing outreach.
And in fact - probably the best thing would be to have in any outreach team
at least one person having good knowledge about hostile Common's habits and
how to effectively cope with them :-)


  *   After all the victim-blaming seen on this discussion no one was able
> to point to a page where the procedure was clear for everyone.
>

Yeah. Because there is no any single page on Commons that might solve your
problems.  This is the other issue - Common's help pages are well.. far
from being perfect.

Let's hope we can follow with this project next year and we will have less
> problems.
>
>
>
I hope too. This is for sure really interesting project worth any support.



--
Tomek "Polimerek" Ganicz
http://pl.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Polimerek
http://www.ganicz.pl/poli/
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Dispute between Common and Outreach

Yann Forget-3
In reply to this post by Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga
Hi,

My guest work is that
1. Adminship requires an extensive knowledge of copyright, that's the main
factor limiting the number of candidates.
2. Commons requires candidates to be active locally.
3. I find personally much more rewarding to work on content that reviewing
and cleaning files uploaded by others. I guess most people feel the same.

Regards,
Yann Forget
Jai Jagat 2020 Grand March Coordinator
https://www.jaijagat2020.org/
+91-74 34 93 33 58 (also WhatsApp)

Le lun. 13 mai 2019 à 11:39, Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga <
[hidden email]> a écrit :

> A good question to ask would be why the admin group is not growing. And
> maybe (maybe) we can find a common answer to both problems pointed here.
> _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Dispute between Common and Outreach

Yann Forget-3
In reply to this post by Peter Southwood
Hi,

Same as for reviewing files.
I find more rewarding to work on content that creating and mainting help
pages.
I should mention that Aymatth2
<https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Aymatth2> has done an amazing work
on completely reworking the copyright help pages, creating subpages by
country.
I think this helps a lot to find the information pertaining to a giving
file.

Regards,
Yann
Jai Jagat 2020 Grand March Coordinator
https://www.jaijagat2020.org/
+91-74 34 93 33 58 (also WhatsApp)

Le lun. 13 mai 2019 à 13:11, Peter Southwood <[hidden email]>
a écrit :

> And there is nobody who "must" improve commons help pages as they are all
> volunteers, so if someone wants better help pages, they can have a go at
> fixing them. Do be careful about how you go about it, as it must reflect
> project consensus.  Get agreement on the talk page first for any
> substantial change to minimise strife.
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Dispute between Common and Outreach

Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga
But the problem here is not about having a good coverage on copyright issues! Is about deleting things claiming that are DW without specifying what is the original work this files are derived from!
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Dispute between Common and Outreach

Peter Southwood
In reply to this post by Yann Forget-3
Fair comments.
It would be a useful allocation of the donors' money
Cheers,
P

-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Yann Forget
Sent: 12 May 2019 13:29
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Dispute between Common and Outreach

Yes,  Yaroslav is right. The active community is small compared to the
amount of work to be done.

I have advocated since long that massive training is needed to fix this.
These trainings should be sponsored by the WMF and its affiliates.

Regards,
Yann Forget
Jai Jagat 2020 Grand March Coordinator
https://www.jaijagat2020.org/
+91-74 34 93 33 58 (also WhatsApp)



Le dim. 12 mai 2019 à 16:40, Yaroslav Blanter <[hidden email]> a écrit :

> Just the active community itself is too small, compared with the amount of
> material it has to deal with.
>
> Cheers
> Yaroslav
>
> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 1:07 PM Benjamin Ikuta <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> > Is the shortage of admins due to a lack of people willing or capable to
> do
> > the job, or increasing difficulty in obtaining the bit?
> >
> >
> >
> > On May 12, 2019, at 3:55 AM, Tomasz Ganicz <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > Well, Actually, at the moment it looks they are all undeleted.
> > >
> > > The good habit - which I was keeping when organizing several
> GLAM-related
> > > mass uploads - was to create on Commons project page describing what it
> > is
> > > intended to be uploaded, preferably in English. Then you can create a
> > > project template to mark all uploads with them.
> > >
> > > See: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Partnerships
> > >
> > > Despite practical issue of avoiding unnecessary clashes with Common's
> > > admins - creating template and project page helps to promote you
> project
> > > across Wikimedia communities and may inspire others to do something
> > similar.
> > >
> > > Commons is indeed quite hostile environment for uploaders, but on the
> > other
> > > hand it is constantly flooded by hundreds  of copyright violating
> files a
> > > day:
> > >
> > > See the list from just one day:
> > >
> > >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/2019/05/01
> > >
> > > so this hostility works both ways - Common's admins have to cope with
> > > aggressive hostile copyright violators every day, and after some time -
> > > decide to leave or became being hostile themselves... and the other
> issue
> > > is decreasing number of active admins and OTRS agents.
> > >
> > > I think - sooner or later - all this system - uploads - screening
> uploads
> > > by admins, and OTRS agreements - needs deep rethinking.
> > >
> > >
> > > niedz., 12 maj 2019 o 10:48 Mister Thrapostibongles <
> > > [hidden email]> napisał(a):
> > >
> > >> Hello all,
> > >>
> > >> There seems to be a dispute between the Outreach and the Commons
> > components
> > >> of The Community, judging by the article "Wikimedia Commons: a highly
> > >> hostile place for multimedia students contributions" at the Education
> > >> Newsletter
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> >
> https://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/Education/News/April_2019/Wikimedia_Commons:_a_highly_hostile_place_for_multimedia_students_contributions
> > >>
> > >> As far as I can understand it, some students on an Outreach project
> > >> uploaded some rather well-made video material, and comeone on Commons
> > >> deleted them because they appeared to well-made to be student projects
> > and
> > >> so concluded they were copyright violations.  But some rather odd
> > remarks
> > >> were made "Commons has to fight the endless stream of uploaded
> > copyrighted
> > >> content on behalf of a headquarters in San Francisco that doesn't
> care."
> > >> and
> > >> "you have regarded Commons as little more than free cloud storage for
> > >> images you intend to use on Wikipedia ".
> > >>
> > >> Perhaps the Foundation needs to resolve this dispute?
> > >>
> > >> Thrapostibongles
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > >> New messages to: [hidden email]
> > >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> ,
> > >> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Tomek "Polimerek" Ganicz
> > > http://pl.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Polimerek
> > > http://www.ganicz.pl/poli/
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Dispute between Common and Outreach

Paulo Santos Perneta
In reply to this post by Todd Allen
Hi Todd,

If you are active in Commons, and demonstrably understand copyright, ToO,
DeMinimis, FOP, you are very welcome as a sysop there, AFAIK:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Administrators

There are some minimal requests of participation, which should not be an
obstacle for anyone fairly active there.

Best,
Paulo

Todd Allen <[hidden email]> escreveu no dia domingo, 12/05/2019 à(s)
22:43:

> I wouldn't even have any idea what I'd need to do to be a sysop on Commons.
> I frequently do find copyvio images and nominate them for deletion on
> Commons while working on the English Wikipedia spam queue (and yes, I'm
> familiar with copyright law, and they have all, to my knowledge, indeed
> been found to be copyvios and deleted), but I wouldn't even have the first
> clue to what being a Commons admin would entail or what the expectations
> are.
>
> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 2:28 PM Paulo Santos Perneta <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Anyone doing Commons stuff has to do have Commons skills. Wikipedia
> sysops
> > are not asked to have them, and do not have them by default.
> >
> > If Wikipedia sysops that deal with copyright want to be Commons admins,
> > they can apply anytime for that role. Otherwise, render to Caesar the
> > things that are Caesar's.
> >
> > Paulo
> >
> >
> > Vi to <[hidden email]> escreveu no dia domingo, 12/05/2019 à(s)
> > 21:13:
> >
> > > Major projects surely deal with a significant amount of uploads in an
> > > efficient way.
> > >
> > > Vito
> > >
> > > Il giorno dom 12 mag 2019 alle ore 17:31 Paulo Santos Perneta <
> > > [hidden email]> ha scritto:
> > >
> > > > I absolutely disagree with this. A Wikipedia sysop do not necessarily
> > > has -
> > > > and from my experience, most of the time hasn't - the necessary
> skills
> > to
> > > > deal with copyright.
> > > >
> > > > Best,
> > > > Paulo
> > > >
> > > > A domingo, 12 de mai de 2019, 14:35, Vi to <[hidden email]>
> > > > escreveu:
> > > >
> > > > > I wonder wheter local sysops could be allowed to delete/undelete
> > images
> > > > on
> > > > > commons in order to reduce workload. Most risky commons' uploads
> come
> > > > from
> > > > > cw-upload, allow local sysops to handle them could work.
> > > > >
> > > > > Vito
> > > > >
> > > > > Il giorno dom 12 mag 2019 alle ore 15:31 James Heilman <
> > > [hidden email]
> > > > >
> > > > > ha scritto:
> > > > >
> > > > > > It is hard to get the admin bit there aswell. Is Commons
> interested
> > > in
> > > > > > having more admins?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > James
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 5:41 AM Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > A couple of years ago a proposed project was for the WMF to pay
> > for
> > > > > > > access to the Google image matching API access so we could run
> a
> > > > > > > copyvio bot on the live new uploads list. Such a bot would not
> be
> > > > > > > terribly hard to get working, and would be a great experiment
> to
> > > see
> > > > > > > if this aspect of the more boring side of sysop tools could be
> > > > > > > reduced.[1]
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Not specifically advocating auto-deletion, but daily
> housekeeping
> > > > > > > image matches to highly likely copyrighted categories would
> make
> > > mass
> > > > > > > housekeeping very easy.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > A separate old chestnut was my proposal to introduce systemic
> > image
> > > > > > > hashes, which neatly show "close" image matches.[2] With a
> > Commons
> > > > hat
> > > > > > > on, such a project would be of far more immediate pragmatic use
> > > than
> > > > > > > mobile-related and structured data-related projects that seem
> to
> > > suck
> > > > > > > up all the oxygen and volunteer time available.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Note that the history of these project/funding ideas is so
> long,
> > > that
> > > > > > > several of the most experienced long term volunteers that were
> > > > > > > originally interested have since retired. Without some positive
> > > short
> > > > > > > term encouragement, not only do these ideas never reach the
> > useful
> > > > > > > experiment stage, but the volunteers involved simply fade away.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Links
> > > > > > > 1.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump/Archive/2016/02#Google_has_opened_an_API_for_image_recognition
> > > > > > > 2. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/Imagehash
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Fae
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Sun, 12 May 2019 at 12:21, Amir Sarabadani <
> > [hidden email]
> > > >
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > IMO commons need either a Clue Bot NG for new uploads or ores
> > > > support
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > images that might be copyright violation, or both.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Best
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 1:10 PM Yaroslav Blanter <
> > > [hidden email]
> > > > >
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Just the active community itself is too small, compared
> with
> > > the
> > > > > > > amount of
> > > > > > > > > material it has to deal with.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Cheers
> > > > > > > > > Yaroslav
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 1:07 PM Benjamin Ikuta <
> > > > > > > [hidden email]>
> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Is the shortage of admins due to a lack of people willing
> > or
> > > > > > capable
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > do
> > > > > > > > > > the job, or increasing difficulty in obtaining the bit?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On May 12, 2019, at 3:55 AM, Tomasz Ganicz <
> > > > [hidden email]>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Well, Actually, at the moment it looks they are all
> > > > undeleted.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > The good habit - which I was keeping when organizing
> > > several
> > > > > > > > > GLAM-related
> > > > > > > > > > > mass uploads - was to create on Commons project page
> > > > describing
> > > > > > > what it
> > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > intended to be uploaded, preferably in English. Then
> you
> > > can
> > > > > > > create a
> > > > > > > > > > > project template to mark all uploads with them.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > See:
> > > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Partnerships
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Despite practical issue of avoiding unnecessary clashes
> > > with
> > > > > > > Common's
> > > > > > > > > > > admins - creating template and project page helps to
> > > promote
> > > > > you
> > > > > > > > > project
> > > > > > > > > > > across Wikimedia communities and may inspire others to
> do
> > > > > > something
> > > > > > > > > > similar.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Commons is indeed quite hostile environment for
> > uploaders,
> > > > but
> > > > > on
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > other
> > > > > > > > > > > hand it is constantly flooded by hundreds  of copyright
> > > > > violating
> > > > > > > > > files a
> > > > > > > > > > > day:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > See the list from just one day:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/2019/05/01
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > so this hostility works both ways - Common's admins
> have
> > to
> > > > > cope
> > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > > > aggressive hostile copyright violators every day, and
> > after
> > > > > some
> > > > > > > time -
> > > > > > > > > > > decide to leave or became being hostile themselves...
> and
> > > the
> > > > > > other
> > > > > > > > > issue
> > > > > > > > > > > is decreasing number of active admins and OTRS agents.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I think - sooner or later - all this system - uploads -
> > > > > screening
> > > > > > > > > uploads
> > > > > > > > > > > by admins, and OTRS agreements - needs deep rethinking.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > niedz., 12 maj 2019 o 10:48 Mister Thrapostibongles <
> > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]> napisał(a):
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >> Hello all,
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >> There seems to be a dispute between the Outreach and
> the
> > > > > Commons
> > > > > > > > > > components
> > > > > > > > > > >> of The Community, judging by the article "Wikimedia
> > > > Commons: a
> > > > > > > highly
> > > > > > > > > > >> hostile place for multimedia students contributions"
> at
> > > the
> > > > > > > Education
> > > > > > > > > > >> Newsletter
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/Education/News/April_2019/Wikimedia_Commons:_a_highly_hostile_place_for_multimedia_students_contributions
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >> As far as I can understand it, some students on an
> > > Outreach
> > > > > > > project
> > > > > > > > > > >> uploaded some rather well-made video material, and
> > comeone
> > > > on
> > > > > > > Commons
> > > > > > > > > > >> deleted them because they appeared to well-made to be
> > > > student
> > > > > > > projects
> > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > >> so concluded they were copyright violations.  But some
> > > > rather
> > > > > > odd
> > > > > > > > > > remarks
> > > > > > > > > > >> were made "Commons has to fight the endless stream of
> > > > uploaded
> > > > > > > > > > copyrighted
> > > > > > > > > > >> content on behalf of a headquarters in San Francisco
> > that
> > > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > > > care."
> > > > > > > > > > >> and
> > > > > > > > > > >> "you have regarded Commons as little more than free
> > cloud
> > > > > > storage
> > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > >> images you intend to use on Wikipedia ".
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >> Perhaps the Foundation needs to resolve this dispute?
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >> Thrapostibongles
> > > > > > > > > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > > > > > >> New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > >> Unsubscribe:
> > > > > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > > > > > > > > ,
> > > > > > > > > > >> <mailto:[hidden email]
> > > > > > > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > > > Tomek "Polimerek" Ganicz
> > > > > > > > > > > http://pl.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Polimerek
> > > > > > > > > > > http://www.ganicz.pl/poli/
> > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > and
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> > > > > > > > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
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> > > > > > > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> > > > > > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > and
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> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
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> and
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> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > Amir (he/him)
> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
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> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > James Heilman
> > > > > > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Dispute between Common and Outreach

Paulo Santos Perneta
In reply to this post by Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga
Wikimedia project communities in general seem to be quite stagnant, if not
declining, apart from Wikidata, which is and always will be a whole
different case. In the case of Commons it was already very much as it is
now when I joined in 2009. I always found it a very pleasant place, but
overtime I understood I was the exception there, and most people had bad
experiences. And it is as Yann has shown there, it's a few sysops running
the entire show almost alone, not because they want that, but because
nobody else helps with that.

IMO the problem is not with the existing sysops, but because people in
general do not feel attracted to copyright and other similar minucious
stuff which marks everyday life in Commons. And, without that knowledge it
is pointless, if not counterproductive, to place a candidacy to sysop. No
idea what the solution could be, but it certainly is not blaming Commons
and the existing sysops. If more people was interested in copyright, less
mistakes would be happening in Commons as well. Whatever the solution is,
it probably passes by that.

Best,
Paulo

Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga <[hidden email]> escreveu no dia segunda,
13/05/2019 à(s) 07:09:

> A good question to ask would be why the admin group is not growing. And
> maybe (maybe) we can find a common answer to both problems pointed here.
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