[Wikimedia-l] Does openly declaring your gender change the probability of having an upload overwritten?

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[Wikimedia-l] Does openly declaring your gender change the probability of having an upload overwritten?

Fæ
I have pulled together the following table together for the past 360 days,
counting whenever an image was reverted by someone who was not the last
uploader, and then attempting to find any declared gender:

2014-2015 Commons file overwrite stats compared to gender

+---------------+----------+
| sex           | count(*) |
+---------------+----------+
| female-female |        1 |
| female-male   |      110 |
| female-none   |      426 |
| male-female   |      139 |
| male-male     |     1376 |
| male-none     |     5711 |
| none-female   |      479 |
| none-male     |     5289 |
| none-none     |    15716 |
+---------------+----------+

Key: "none" means not set in user preferences, "female-male" means a woman
has overwritten a man's file and "male-none" means a declared male has
overwritten an account with no gender set.

I'd appreciate any views on whether there is any statistical meaning to be
pulled from these figures, apart from showing that men probably outnumber
women contributors by ten times on Commons.

If the email is displaying badly, you can find a wiki formatted table and
original generating SQL on the Commons village pump[1]. I thought this
would be of wider interest as though "image revert warring" is mostly an
issue for Wikimedia Commons, it is a very similar area of heated disputes
when compared to edit revert warring on Wikipedia projects. The question
popped up from someone interested in my long running 'significant reverts'
tracking report.[2]

Links:
1.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump#Does_openly_declaring_your_gender_change_the_probability_of_having_an_upload_overwritten.3F
2. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/SignificantReverts

Fae
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Does openly declaring your gender change the probability of having an upload overwritten?

Tomasz Ganicz
2015-08-14 2:20 GMT+02:00 Fæ <[hidden email]>:

> 15716


First of all it seems that vast majority of Commons users do not select
their gender so they are "none". It obviously spoils the rest of the
statistics. Would be good to add to it numbers of males, females and
"nones" included, so it would be more clear which group has generally
stronger tendency for overwriting.  For example strong "overwriter" can
make a 1000 overwrites a year, and a weak one just 1. Such "strong"
overwrites can also spoil this statistics. For example - one "strong"
female overwrite can easily make all overwrites and the rest of females are
not overwriting at all :-) The same apply the other way - i.e. we can say
that women are more vulnerable to be overwriten if you divide numbers of
overwrites by number of females and compare it to the other groups.


--
Tomek "Polimerek" Ganicz
http://pl.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Polimerek
http://www.ganicz.pl/poli/
http://www.cbmm.lodz.pl/work.php?id=29&title=tomasz-ganicz
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Does openly declaring your gender change the probability of having an upload overwritten?

Magnus Manske-2
Looking at "male-female" and "female-male", and considering the much-cited
15% female editor ratio, it seems women are much more overwrite-happy than
men.

Then again, 139:110 are not exactly numbers one does want to base
statistics on...

On Fri, Aug 14, 2015 at 9:25 AM Tomasz Ganicz <[hidden email]> wrote:

> 2015-08-14 2:20 GMT+02:00 Fæ <[hidden email]>:
>
> > 15716
>
>
> First of all it seems that vast majority of Commons users do not select
> their gender so they are "none". It obviously spoils the rest of the
> statistics. Would be good to add to it numbers of males, females and
> "nones" included, so it would be more clear which group has generally
> stronger tendency for overwriting.  For example strong "overwriter" can
> make a 1000 overwrites a year, and a weak one just 1. Such "strong"
> overwrites can also spoil this statistics. For example - one "strong"
> female overwrite can easily make all overwrites and the rest of females are
> not overwriting at all :-) The same apply the other way - i.e. we can say
> that women are more vulnerable to be overwriten if you divide numbers of
> overwrites by number of females and compare it to the other groups.
>
>
> --
> Tomek "Polimerek" Ganicz
> http://pl.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Polimerek
> http://www.ganicz.pl/poli/
> http://www.cbmm.lodz.pl/work.php?id=29&title=tomasz-ganicz
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
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> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@...>
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Does openly declaring your gender change the probability of having an upload overwritten?

Jane Darnell
In reply to this post by Tomasz Ganicz
especially when the overwrites are non-contentious (most of my overwrites
are to provide better quality or higher resolution for photos of paintings)

On Fri, Aug 14, 2015 at 10:25 AM, Tomasz Ganicz <[hidden email]> wrote:

> 2015-08-14 2:20 GMT+02:00 Fæ <[hidden email]>:
>
> > 15716
>
>
> First of all it seems that vast majority of Commons users do not select
> their gender so they are "none". It obviously spoils the rest of the
> statistics. Would be good to add to it numbers of males, females and
> "nones" included, so it would be more clear which group has generally
> stronger tendency for overwriting.  For example strong "overwriter" can
> make a 1000 overwrites a year, and a weak one just 1. Such "strong"
> overwrites can also spoil this statistics. For example - one "strong"
> female overwrite can easily make all overwrites and the rest of females are
> not overwriting at all :-) The same apply the other way - i.e. we can say
> that women are more vulnerable to be overwriten if you divide numbers of
> overwrites by number of females and compare it to the other groups.
>
>
> --
> Tomek "Polimerek" Ganicz
> http://pl.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Polimerek
> http://www.ganicz.pl/poli/
> http://www.cbmm.lodz.pl/work.php?id=29&title=tomasz-ganicz
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Does openly declaring your gender change the probability of having an upload overwritten?

Jane Darnell
In reply to this post by Magnus Manske-2
Well given the case of women overwriting photos of themselves, I would
totally agree with you. In my (admittedly few) conversations with Wikipedia
article subjects, women object most to the photos of themselves, while men
talk about specific lines of text.

On Fri, Aug 14, 2015 at 10:58 AM, Magnus Manske <[hidden email]
> wrote:

> Looking at "male-female" and "female-male", and considering the much-cited
> 15% female editor ratio, it seems women are much more overwrite-happy than
> men.
>
> Then again, 139:110 are not exactly numbers one does want to base
> statistics on...
>
> On Fri, Aug 14, 2015 at 9:25 AM Tomasz Ganicz <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > 2015-08-14 2:20 GMT+02:00 Fæ <[hidden email]>:
> >
> > > 15716
> >
> >
> > First of all it seems that vast majority of Commons users do not select
> > their gender so they are "none". It obviously spoils the rest of the
> > statistics. Would be good to add to it numbers of males, females and
> > "nones" included, so it would be more clear which group has generally
> > stronger tendency for overwriting.  For example strong "overwriter" can
> > make a 1000 overwrites a year, and a weak one just 1. Such "strong"
> > overwrites can also spoil this statistics. For example - one "strong"
> > female overwrite can easily make all overwrites and the rest of females
> are
> > not overwriting at all :-) The same apply the other way - i.e. we can say
> > that women are more vulnerable to be overwriten if you divide numbers of
> > overwrites by number of females and compare it to the other groups.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Tomek "Polimerek" Ganicz
> > http://pl.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Polimerek
> > http://www.ganicz.pl/poli/
> > http://www.cbmm.lodz.pl/work.php?id=29&title=tomasz-ganicz
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > [hidden email]
> > <
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@...
> >
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Does openly declaring your gender change the probability of having an upload overwritten?

Fæ
In reply to this post by Magnus Manske-2
On 14 August 2015 at 09:58, Magnus Manske <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Looking at "male-female" and "female-male", and considering the much-cited
> 15% female editor ratio, it seems women are much more overwrite-happy than
> men.
>
> Then again, 139:110 are not exactly numbers one does want to base
> statistics on...

I agree that intuitively the numbers look too marginal to draw strong
conclusions, apart perhaps from deducing that though the proportion of
women who are active on Wikimedia Commons remains far too low, a
user's gender does not have any significant affect on whether they get
overwritten or overwrite others. I wanted to raise it as statistical
interpretation is not my forte, and there are a number of researchers
who follow this list who are darn hot on statistics or might draw
comparisons with existing gender related measurements :-)

With respect to being *overwrite-happy*, it is worth re-enforcing that
healthy collaborative work on Wikimedia Commons does include files
that have a lot of planned overwrites and only in a minority of cases
is significant overwriting a symptom of a dispute. For example the
maps of the USA which track the status of rapidly changing same-sex
marriage legislation are some of the most overwritten files on
Commons, having hundreds of overwrites, and all of the changes are
positive improvement which help to illustrate some popular LGBT
articles around this area of newsworthy law and politics.

Cheers,
Fae

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Does openly declaring your gender change the probability of having an upload overwritten?

Laurentius-2
In reply to this post by Fæ
Il giorno ven, 14/08/2015 alle 01.20 +0100, Fæ ha scritto:
> I'd appreciate any views on whether there is any statistical meaning
> to be
> pulled from these figures, apart from showing that men probably
> outnumber
> women contributors by ten times on Commons.

To have a real answer you should do a statistical test - after
addressing the considerations written by Tomasz.
However, my rough guess is that the answer is no: if you sum up the rows
and the columns, the proportions of declared male/female/none among
reverters and reverted are similar. I've put the numbers on the Commons
page [1].

Laurentius

[1]https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump#Does_openly_declaring_your_gender_change_the_probability_of_having_an_upload_overwritten.3F


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Does openly declaring your gender change the probability of having an upload overwritten?

Fæ
In reply to this post by Fæ
On 14 August 2015 at 11:33, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 14 August 2015 at 09:58, Magnus Manske <[hidden email]>
wrote:
>> Looking at "male-female" and "female-male", and considering the
much-cited
>> 15% female editor ratio, it seems women are much more overwrite-happy
than
>> men.

I'm just thinking this through again, as there is a logical flaw in
statement. If we take a
​random ​
sample space limited to just overwrites where men are overwriting women or
women are overwriting men, then the ratio of men:women is irrelevant, given
a large sample. Effectively even if men outnumber women by 80% or 90%, the
numbers of overwrites of type "male-female" and "female-male" should be
almost the same in /both directions/. If the figures are not similar, then
other factors are at play than just that there are more men contributing to
the project.

Testing this theory, I went to the English Wikipedia database and checking
over all time, found:

+-------------+----------+
| sex         | count(*) |
+-------------+----------+
| female-male |       63 |
| male-female |      127 |
+-------------+----------+

Checking the all time figures for Commons shows:

+-------------+----------+
| sex         | count(*) |
+-------------+----------+
| female-male |     1309 |
| male-female |     2220 |
+-------------+----------+

​Quickly going to French (far less statistically significant):

+-------------+----------+
| sex         | count(*) |
+-------------+----------+
| female-male |        1 |
| male-female |       12 |
+-------------+----------+

German:​

+-------------+----------+
| sex         | count(*) |
+-------------+----------+
| female-male |        6 |
| male-female |       39 |
+-------------+----------+

The conclusion has to be that women are
​at least /twice/ as likely to have an image overwritten by a man on our
projects than the reverse happing. The numbers are sufficiently large for
it to appear a meaningful result.

Fae
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Does openly declaring your gender change the probability of having an upload overwritten?

Robert Rohde
In reply to this post by Fæ
To summarize the numbers a bit:

Male uploads that were overwritten by anyone: 7226
Female uploads that were overwritten by anyone: 536
None uploads that were overwritten by anyone: 21484

Male uploads that were overwrote anyone: 6775
Female uploads that were overwrote anyone: 619
None uploads that were overwrote anyone: 21861

As a percentage of all overwritten uploads
Male: 24.7%
Female: 1.8%
None: 73.5%

As a percentage of all uploads that overwrote someone
Male: 23.2%
Female: 2.1%
None: 74.7%

Assuming random assortment, we would expect:

Male-male: 0.247*0.232 = 5.7%
Male-female: 0.52%
Male-none: 18.5%
Female-male: 0.42%
Female-female: 0.038%
Female-none: 1.3%
None-male: 17.1%
None-female: 1.5%
None-none: 54.9%

Given the number of events observed, that translates to expectations of:

Male-male = 1667
Male-female = 152
Male-none = 5412
Female-male = 122
Female-female = 11
Female-none = 380
None-male = 5003
None-female = 439
None-none = 16061

These numbers are broadly consistent with what you posted.  There are some
deviations, but given the sample size and the number of possible
confounding factors (some of which have been mentioned by others) I think
you'd need evidence of a quite large effect before assuming there was an
important bias.

-Robert Rohde


On Fri, Aug 14, 2015 at 2:20 AM, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I have pulled together the following table together for the past 360 days,
> counting whenever an image was reverted by someone who was not the last
> uploader, and then attempting to find any declared gender:
>
> 2014-2015 Commons file overwrite stats compared to gender
>
> +---------------+----------+
> | sex           | count(*) |
> +---------------+----------+
> | female-female |        1 |
> | female-male   |      110 |
> | female-none   |      426 |
> | male-female   |      139 |
> | male-male     |     1376 |
> | male-none     |     5711 |
> | none-female   |      479 |
> | none-male     |     5289 |
> | none-none     |    15716 |
> +---------------+----------+
>
> Key: "none" means not set in user preferences, "female-male" means a woman
> has overwritten a man's file and "male-none" means a declared male has
> overwritten an account with no gender set.
>
> I'd appreciate any views on whether there is any statistical meaning to be
> pulled from these figures, apart from showing that men probably outnumber
> women contributors by ten times on Commons.
>
> If the email is displaying badly, you can find a wiki formatted table and
> original generating SQL on the Commons village pump[1]. I thought this
> would be of wider interest as though "image revert warring" is mostly an
> issue for Wikimedia Commons, it is a very similar area of heated disputes
> when compared to edit revert warring on Wikipedia projects. The question
> popped up from someone interested in my long running 'significant reverts'
> tracking report.[2]
>
> Links:
> 1.
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump#Does_openly_declaring_your_gender_change_the_probability_of_having_an_upload_overwritten.3F
> 2. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/SignificantReverts
>
> Fae
> --
> [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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