[Wikimedia-l] Donating to Wikipedia

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[Wikimedia-l] Donating to Wikipedia

Benjamin Ikuta


My dad recently said to me:

"I was solitated by them after looking something up.  I thought it strange the way they were pleading for donations. They made it sound like they might be shutting down if we the general public didn't donate."

Has there been any research into how common it is for readers to get the wrong impression from the marketing messaging?

I've heard of this sort of thing happening before, and I think it's highly antithetical to our values to be deceptive.





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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Donating to Wikipedia

Jacob Jose
I also felt like how Benjamin's dad did..  If one is viewing using the
mobile app, the red banners fill the entire screen and one has to scroll
down to get to the content. I think the fund solicitation ads need to be
much less loud than it's now..

Background: I have been an active Wiki contributor for over 10 years now.

On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 2:27 PM Benjamin Ikuta <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>
>
> My dad recently said to me:
>
> "I was solitated by them after looking something up.  I thought it strange
> the way they were pleading for donations. They made it sound like they
> might be shutting down if we the general public didn't donate."
>
> Has there been any research into how common it is for readers to get the
> wrong impression from the marketing messaging?
>
> I've heard of this sort of thing happening before, and I think it's highly
> antithetical to our values to be deceptive.
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
_______________________________________________
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New messages to: [hidden email]
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Donating to Wikipedia

Joseph Seddon-6
In reply to this post by Benjamin Ikuta
Hey Benjamin!

Just wanted to acknowledge your email and let you know I'll respond in full
as soon as possible.

Many Thanks
Seddon

On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 8:27 PM Benjamin Ikuta <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>
>
> My dad recently said to me:
>
> "I was solitated by them after looking something up.  I thought it strange
> the way they were pleading for donations. They made it sound like they
> might be shutting down if we the general public didn't donate."
>
> Has there been any research into how common it is for readers to get the
> wrong impression from the marketing messaging?
>
> I've heard of this sort of thing happening before, and I think it's highly
> antithetical to our values to be deceptive.
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>



--
Seddon

*Community and Audience Engagement Associate*
*Advancement (Fundraising), Wikimedia Foundation*
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Donating to Wikipedia

Fæ
In reply to this post by Jacob Jose
Sadly I had a similar experience only this weekend.

We were enjoying a going away lunch with friends who are out of the
country over Christmas, when one of them asked about Wikipedia's
problems, knowing that I often volunteer time to it. He claimed that
the site was spamming screen-sized pop-up banners trying to raise
money because they were going bust. I had to advise him how wealthy
the Foundation was, with hundreds of staff and extra cash in an
endowment fund.

Isn't it about time that the Wikimedia Foundation came to terms that
/plenty/ of money is made through sensible fundraising, without every
year embarrassing the whole Wikimedia Community by promoting the
impression that Wikipedia is about to close down if the public don't
give them enough money to keep their servers powered up over
Christmas? Making 10% more money every year is growth for the sake of
it unless we can understand in an accountable and transparent way
where that extra 10% is needed; preferably right there in the
fundraising banner so folks don't get the impression that Wikipedia is
about to vanish.

Thanks,
Fae

On Wed, 18 Dec 2019 at 20:34, Jacob Jose <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> I also felt like how Benjamin's dad did..  If one is viewing using the
> mobile app, the red banners fill the entire screen and one has to scroll
> down to get to the content. I think the fund solicitation ads need to be
> much less loud than it's now..
>
> Background: I have been an active Wiki contributor for over 10 years now.
>
> On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 2:27 PM Benjamin Ikuta <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > My dad recently said to me:
> >
> > "I was solitated by them after looking something up.  I thought it strange
> > the way they were pleading for donations. They made it sound like they
> > might be shutting down if we the general public didn't donate."
> >
> > Has there been any research into how common it is for readers to get the
> > wrong impression from the marketing messaging?
> >
> > I've heard of this sort of thing happening before, and I think it's highly
> > antithetical to our values to be deceptive.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>

--
[hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae

Personal and confidential, please do not circulate or re-quote.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Donating to Wikipedia

metasj
I've heard this asked this by 3-4 people recently
* A family member (checking in to make sure things were ok)
* A local grantmaker (who likewise has supported WP at least once before)
* A couple undergrads (on phones, asking eachother what to do if WP went
down during finals)

All worried either that there had bee some sudden change, or that knowledge
or access would be lost in the near future. Perhaps there's a way to reach
the same people while highlighting our commitment to persistent access to
knowledge across time.  And maybe a way to measure interpretation or
reaction to a banner in addition to its conversion rate.  [Some banners are
so delightful that they are a welcome improvement to a page without; and
I've occasionally thought we should run some of those, w/ low probability,
continuously year-round.]

Wikilove,
SJ

On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 4:38 PM Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Sadly I had a similar experience only this weekend.
>
> We were enjoying a going away lunch with friends who are out of the
> country over Christmas, when one of them asked about Wikipedia's
> problems, knowing that I often volunteer time to it. He claimed that
> the site was spamming screen-sized pop-up banners trying to raise
> money because they were going bust. I had to advise him how wealthy
> the Foundation was, with hundreds of staff and extra cash in an
> endowment fund.
>
> Isn't it about time that the Wikimedia Foundation came to terms that
> /plenty/ of money is made through sensible fundraising, without every
> year embarrassing the whole Wikimedia Community by promoting the
> impression that Wikipedia is about to close down if the public don't
> give them enough money to keep their servers powered up over
> Christmas? Making 10% more money every year is growth for the sake of
> it unless we can understand in an accountable and transparent way
> where that extra 10% is needed; preferably right there in the
> fundraising banner so folks don't get the impression that Wikipedia is
> about to vanish.
>
> Thanks,
> Fae
>
> On Wed, 18 Dec 2019 at 20:34, Jacob Jose <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > I also felt like how Benjamin's dad did..  If one is viewing using the
> > mobile app, the red banners fill the entire screen and one has to scroll
> > down to get to the content. I think the fund solicitation ads need to be
> > much less loud than it's now..
> >
> > Background: I have been an active Wiki contributor for over 10 years now.
> >
> > On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 2:27 PM Benjamin Ikuta <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > My dad recently said to me:
> > >
> > > "I was solitated by them after looking something up.  I thought it
> strange
> > > the way they were pleading for donations. They made it sound like they
> > > might be shutting down if we the general public didn't donate."
> > >
> > > Has there been any research into how common it is for readers to get
> the
> > > wrong impression from the marketing messaging?
> > >
> > > I've heard of this sort of thing happening before, and I think it's
> highly
> > > antithetical to our values to be deceptive.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
> --
> [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>
> Personal and confidential, please do not circulate or re-quote.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>



--
Samuel Klein          @metasj           w:user:sj          +1 617 529 4266
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Donating to Wikipedia

Chris Gates via Wikimedia-l
I've sent in multiple emails about this issue already, the last one about a
week ago. I was given a response within a few hours; a boilerplate
explaining why one might be seeing banners after they had donated, and
explaining my options on how to hide them.

I had not donated, and I did not mention that at all in my email. It was
feedback (more of a complaint) about the style of the campaign. I'm quite
disappointed that my email was evidently not read at all and simply replied
to with some generic boilerplate.

And I have to agree with everyone else here. I have an immensely strong
dislike of this campaign.

Regards,
Vermont

On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 4:58 PM Samuel Klein <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I've heard this asked this by 3-4 people recently
> * A family member (checking in to make sure things were ok)
> * A local grantmaker (who likewise has supported WP at least once before)
> * A couple undergrads (on phones, asking eachother what to do if WP went
> down during finals)
>
> All worried either that there had bee some sudden change, or that knowledge
> or access would be lost in the near future. Perhaps there's a way to reach
> the same people while highlighting our commitment to persistent access to
> knowledge across time.  And maybe a way to measure interpretation or
> reaction to a banner in addition to its conversion rate.  [Some banners are
> so delightful that they are a welcome improvement to a page without; and
> I've occasionally thought we should run some of those, w/ low probability,
> continuously year-round.]
>
> Wikilove,
> SJ
>
> On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 4:38 PM Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Sadly I had a similar experience only this weekend.
> >
> > We were enjoying a going away lunch with friends who are out of the
> > country over Christmas, when one of them asked about Wikipedia's
> > problems, knowing that I often volunteer time to it. He claimed that
> > the site was spamming screen-sized pop-up banners trying to raise
> > money because they were going bust. I had to advise him how wealthy
> > the Foundation was, with hundreds of staff and extra cash in an
> > endowment fund.
> >
> > Isn't it about time that the Wikimedia Foundation came to terms that
> > /plenty/ of money is made through sensible fundraising, without every
> > year embarrassing the whole Wikimedia Community by promoting the
> > impression that Wikipedia is about to close down if the public don't
> > give them enough money to keep their servers powered up over
> > Christmas? Making 10% more money every year is growth for the sake of
> > it unless we can understand in an accountable and transparent way
> > where that extra 10% is needed; preferably right there in the
> > fundraising banner so folks don't get the impression that Wikipedia is
> > about to vanish.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Fae
> >
> > On Wed, 18 Dec 2019 at 20:34, Jacob Jose <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > I also felt like how Benjamin's dad did..  If one is viewing using the
> > > mobile app, the red banners fill the entire screen and one has to
> scroll
> > > down to get to the content. I think the fund solicitation ads need to
> be
> > > much less loud than it's now..
> > >
> > > Background: I have been an active Wiki contributor for over 10 years
> now.
> > >
> > > On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 2:27 PM Benjamin Ikuta <
> [hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > My dad recently said to me:
> > > >
> > > > "I was solitated by them after looking something up.  I thought it
> > strange
> > > > the way they were pleading for donations. They made it sound like
> they
> > > > might be shutting down if we the general public didn't donate."
> > > >
> > > > Has there been any research into how common it is for readers to get
> > the
> > > > wrong impression from the marketing messaging?
> > > >
> > > > I've heard of this sort of thing happening before, and I think it's
> > highly
> > > > antithetical to our values to be deceptive.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> > --
> > [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> >
> > Personal and confidential, please do not circulate or re-quote.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
>
> --
> Samuel Klein          @metasj           w:user:sj          +1 617 529 4266
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
_______________________________________________
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New messages to: [hidden email]
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Donating to Wikipedia

Michel Vuijlsteke-2
In reply to this post by metasj
This discussion comes back every year. Every year we get the same
reassurance that it's being looked into, that we'll try to do better, that
things have been tested, etc.

The reality of the matter is that the alarmist and misleading stuff
*works*. And that it's most probably not going anywhere. Just like last
year and the year before.


On Wed, 18 Dec 2019, 22:58 Samuel Klein, <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I've heard this asked this by 3-4 people recently
> * A family member (checking in to make sure things were ok)
> * A local grantmaker (who likewise has supported WP at least once before)
> * A couple undergrads (on phones, asking eachother what to do if WP went
> down during finals)
>
> All worried either that there had bee some sudden change, or that knowledge
> or access would be lost in the near future. Perhaps there's a way to reach
> the same people while highlighting our commitment to persistent access to
> knowledge across time.  And maybe a way to measure interpretation or
> reaction to a banner in addition to its conversion rate.  [Some banners are
> so delightful that they are a welcome improvement to a page without; and
> I've occasionally thought we should run some of those, w/ low probability,
> continuously year-round.]
>
> Wikilove,
> SJ
>
> On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 4:38 PM Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Sadly I had a similar experience only this weekend.
> >
> > We were enjoying a going away lunch with friends who are out of the
> > country over Christmas, when one of them asked about Wikipedia's
> > problems, knowing that I often volunteer time to it. He claimed that
> > the site was spamming screen-sized pop-up banners trying to raise
> > money because they were going bust. I had to advise him how wealthy
> > the Foundation was, with hundreds of staff and extra cash in an
> > endowment fund.
> >
> > Isn't it about time that the Wikimedia Foundation came to terms that
> > /plenty/ of money is made through sensible fundraising, without every
> > year embarrassing the whole Wikimedia Community by promoting the
> > impression that Wikipedia is about to close down if the public don't
> > give them enough money to keep their servers powered up over
> > Christmas? Making 10% more money every year is growth for the sake of
> > it unless we can understand in an accountable and transparent way
> > where that extra 10% is needed; preferably right there in the
> > fundraising banner so folks don't get the impression that Wikipedia is
> > about to vanish.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Fae
> >
> > On Wed, 18 Dec 2019 at 20:34, Jacob Jose <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > I also felt like how Benjamin's dad did..  If one is viewing using the
> > > mobile app, the red banners fill the entire screen and one has to
> scroll
> > > down to get to the content. I think the fund solicitation ads need to
> be
> > > much less loud than it's now..
> > >
> > > Background: I have been an active Wiki contributor for over 10 years
> now.
> > >
> > > On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 2:27 PM Benjamin Ikuta <
> [hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > My dad recently said to me:
> > > >
> > > > "I was solitated by them after looking something up.  I thought it
> > strange
> > > > the way they were pleading for donations. They made it sound like
> they
> > > > might be shutting down if we the general public didn't donate."
> > > >
> > > > Has there been any research into how common it is for readers to get
> > the
> > > > wrong impression from the marketing messaging?
> > > >
> > > > I've heard of this sort of thing happening before, and I think it's
> > highly
> > > > antithetical to our values to be deceptive.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> > --
> > [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> >
> > Personal and confidential, please do not circulate or re-quote.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
>
> --
> Samuel Klein          @metasj           w:user:sj          +1 617 529 4266
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
_______________________________________________
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New messages to: [hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Donating to Wikipedia

metasj
I think the current messages are quite good and clear, the ones I've seen
get better each year.
I don't find the messaging alarmist or misleading.  But perhaps subtle cues
can change how they are perceived.

[I also don't usually get this feedback from people outside our community
(last: in 2012), so it might just be random walks through feedback space.]




On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 7:30 PM Michel Vuijlsteke <[hidden email]> wrote:

> This discussion comes back every year. Every year we get the same
> reassurance that it's being looked into, that we'll try to do better, that
> things have been tested, etc.
>
> The reality of the matter is that the alarmist and misleading stuff
> *works*. And that it's most probably not going anywhere. Just like last
> year and the year before.
>
>
> On Wed, 18 Dec 2019, 22:58 Samuel Klein, <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > I've heard this asked this by 3-4 people recently
> > * A family member (checking in to make sure things were ok)
> > * A local grantmaker (who likewise has supported WP at least once before)
> > * A couple undergrads (on phones, asking eachother what to do if WP went
> > down during finals)
> >
> > All worried either that there had bee some sudden change, or that
> knowledge
> > or access would be lost in the near future. Perhaps there's a way to
> reach
> > the same people while highlighting our commitment to persistent access to
> > knowledge across time.  And maybe a way to measure interpretation or
> > reaction to a banner in addition to its conversion rate.  [Some banners
> are
> > so delightful that they are a welcome improvement to a page without; and
> > I've occasionally thought we should run some of those, w/ low
> probability,
> > continuously year-round.]
> >
> > Wikilove,
> > SJ
> >
> > On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 4:38 PM Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > Sadly I had a similar experience only this weekend.
> > >
> > > We were enjoying a going away lunch with friends who are out of the
> > > country over Christmas, when one of them asked about Wikipedia's
> > > problems, knowing that I often volunteer time to it. He claimed that
> > > the site was spamming screen-sized pop-up banners trying to raise
> > > money because they were going bust. I had to advise him how wealthy
> > > the Foundation was, with hundreds of staff and extra cash in an
> > > endowment fund.
> > >
> > > Isn't it about time that the Wikimedia Foundation came to terms that
> > > /plenty/ of money is made through sensible fundraising, without every
> > > year embarrassing the whole Wikimedia Community by promoting the
> > > impression that Wikipedia is about to close down if the public don't
> > > give them enough money to keep their servers powered up over
> > > Christmas? Making 10% more money every year is growth for the sake of
> > > it unless we can understand in an accountable and transparent way
> > > where that extra 10% is needed; preferably right there in the
> > > fundraising banner so folks don't get the impression that Wikipedia is
> > > about to vanish.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Fae
> > >
> > > On Wed, 18 Dec 2019 at 20:34, Jacob Jose <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I also felt like how Benjamin's dad did..  If one is viewing using
> the
> > > > mobile app, the red banners fill the entire screen and one has to
> > scroll
> > > > down to get to the content. I think the fund solicitation ads need to
> > be
> > > > much less loud than it's now..
> > > >
> > > > Background: I have been an active Wiki contributor for over 10 years
> > now.
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 2:27 PM Benjamin Ikuta <
> > [hidden email]>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > My dad recently said to me:
> > > > >
> > > > > "I was solitated by them after looking something up.  I thought it
> > > strange
> > > > > the way they were pleading for donations. They made it sound like
> > they
> > > > > might be shutting down if we the general public didn't donate."
> > > > >
> > > > > Has there been any research into how common it is for readers to
> get
> > > the
> > > > > wrong impression from the marketing messaging?
> > > > >
> > > > > I've heard of this sort of thing happening before, and I think it's
> > > highly
> > > > > antithetical to our values to be deceptive.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > > --
> > > [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> > >
> > > Personal and confidential, please do not circulate or re-quote.
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Samuel Klein          @metasj           w:user:sj          +1 617 529
> 4266
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
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--
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Donating to Wikipedia

Effe iets anders
Yeah, I've been getting this feedback each year for at least the past years
too. I am pretty sure that most of the people who were alarmed and told me,
did not thoroughly read the message, but mostly picked up on cues. It may
be that I have more of such people in my circle of acquaintances than you :)

Lodewijk

On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 4:44 PM Samuel Klein <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I think the current messages are quite good and clear, the ones I've seen
> get better each year.
> I don't find the messaging alarmist or misleading.  But perhaps subtle cues
> can change how they are perceived.
>
> [I also don't usually get this feedback from people outside our community
> (last: in 2012), so it might just be random walks through feedback space.]
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 7:30 PM Michel Vuijlsteke <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > This discussion comes back every year. Every year we get the same
> > reassurance that it's being looked into, that we'll try to do better,
> that
> > things have been tested, etc.
> >
> > The reality of the matter is that the alarmist and misleading stuff
> > *works*. And that it's most probably not going anywhere. Just like last
> > year and the year before.
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 18 Dec 2019, 22:58 Samuel Klein, <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > I've heard this asked this by 3-4 people recently
> > > * A family member (checking in to make sure things were ok)
> > > * A local grantmaker (who likewise has supported WP at least once
> before)
> > > * A couple undergrads (on phones, asking eachother what to do if WP
> went
> > > down during finals)
> > >
> > > All worried either that there had bee some sudden change, or that
> > knowledge
> > > or access would be lost in the near future. Perhaps there's a way to
> > reach
> > > the same people while highlighting our commitment to persistent access
> to
> > > knowledge across time.  And maybe a way to measure interpretation or
> > > reaction to a banner in addition to its conversion rate.  [Some banners
> > are
> > > so delightful that they are a welcome improvement to a page without;
> and
> > > I've occasionally thought we should run some of those, w/ low
> > probability,
> > > continuously year-round.]
> > >
> > > Wikilove,
> > > SJ
> > >
> > > On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 4:38 PM Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Sadly I had a similar experience only this weekend.
> > > >
> > > > We were enjoying a going away lunch with friends who are out of the
> > > > country over Christmas, when one of them asked about Wikipedia's
> > > > problems, knowing that I often volunteer time to it. He claimed that
> > > > the site was spamming screen-sized pop-up banners trying to raise
> > > > money because they were going bust. I had to advise him how wealthy
> > > > the Foundation was, with hundreds of staff and extra cash in an
> > > > endowment fund.
> > > >
> > > > Isn't it about time that the Wikimedia Foundation came to terms that
> > > > /plenty/ of money is made through sensible fundraising, without every
> > > > year embarrassing the whole Wikimedia Community by promoting the
> > > > impression that Wikipedia is about to close down if the public don't
> > > > give them enough money to keep their servers powered up over
> > > > Christmas? Making 10% more money every year is growth for the sake of
> > > > it unless we can understand in an accountable and transparent way
> > > > where that extra 10% is needed; preferably right there in the
> > > > fundraising banner so folks don't get the impression that Wikipedia
> is
> > > > about to vanish.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Fae
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, 18 Dec 2019 at 20:34, Jacob Jose <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I also felt like how Benjamin's dad did..  If one is viewing using
> > the
> > > > > mobile app, the red banners fill the entire screen and one has to
> > > scroll
> > > > > down to get to the content. I think the fund solicitation ads need
> to
> > > be
> > > > > much less loud than it's now..
> > > > >
> > > > > Background: I have been an active Wiki contributor for over 10
> years
> > > now.
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 2:27 PM Benjamin Ikuta <
> > > [hidden email]>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > My dad recently said to me:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "I was solitated by them after looking something up.  I thought
> it
> > > > strange
> > > > > > the way they were pleading for donations. They made it sound like
> > > they
> > > > > > might be shutting down if we the general public didn't donate."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Has there been any research into how common it is for readers to
> > get
> > > > the
> > > > > > wrong impression from the marketing messaging?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I've heard of this sort of thing happening before, and I think
> it's
> > > > highly
> > > > > > antithetical to our values to be deceptive.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> > > >
> > > > Personal and confidential, please do not circulate or re-quote.
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Samuel Klein          @metasj           w:user:sj          +1 617 529
> > 4266
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
>
> --
> Samuel Klein          @metasj           w:user:sj          +1 617 529 4266
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
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> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Donating to Wikipedia

MZMcBride-2
In reply to this post by metasj
Samuel Klein wrote:
>[Some banners are so delightful that they are a welcome improvement to a
>page without; and I've occasionally thought we should run some of those,
>w/ low probability, continuously year-round.]

Which banners are delightful? The ones I've seen this year take up two
pages of scrolling on mobile. This isn't cute or endearing; as you and
others note, it's alarming to many people.

As I imagine I've said previously, I think it's helpful to call this type
of behavior what it is: spam or advertising. Calling it "fundraising" or
speaking of "banners" makes it a lot easier to brush aside how intrusive
and obnoxious this code is and the damaging impact it has.

Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:

>Isn't it about time that the Wikimedia Foundation came to terms that
> /plenty/ of money is made through sensible fundraising, without every
>year embarrassing the whole Wikimedia Community by promoting the
> impression that Wikipedia is about to close down if the public don't
> give them enough money to keep their servers powered up over
> Christmas? Making 10% more money every year is growth for the sake of
> it unless we can understand in an accountable and transparent way
> where that extra 10% is needed; preferably right there in the
> fundraising banner so folks don't get the impression that Wikipedia is
> about to vanish.

Yes, absolutely. While there's often talk of "Wikimedia values", it's
always been incredible to me to see the exact confines of those values
from Wikimedia Foundation Inc. staff who are charged with bringing in
money. For years, there have been complaints about this spam being
borderline deceitful; in some cases the spam has been outright misleading
or wrong. How does tricking people into thinking that Wikipedia will stop
surviving if they don't give $5 an acceptable practice?

MZMcBride



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Donating to Wikipedia

Joseph Seddon-6
In reply to this post by Benjamin Ikuta
 Hey Benjamin,

Your dad is right, in some regards. More than 85% of our revenue comes from
the general public. It's how we've survived and has supported our growth
over the last decade.

We have conducted surveys, focus groups and user testing over the years to
get better insights into our readers and donors and have published results
from some of our research surveys. [1][2]  We definitely monitor feedback
on social media for reader reactions to our fundraising but I don’t think
we have specifically researched the question you raised about readers
taking away the wrong impression. It's definitely something for us to
consider for the future. It’s worth noting that readers arrive at our
website with misconceptions. Until only very recently, half of our readers
didn’t realise that Wikipedia was non-profit and a quarter of them thought
we were funded by commercial advertising.

Our current messaging has moved on from previous years. There is definitely
a sense of urgency in the fundraising message because there is urgency
behind our work. We aren't saying that our sites are going to be taken
down, and we avoid using that kind of messaging these days, but the
movement has set itself some pretty significant goals for the next 10
years. If we are to be genuinely serious about achieving or making headway
in those areas, we need the support of our readers. We are trying to get
that urgency across without causing anxiety and it is certainly a
challenge.

One thing to keep in mind is unlike websites like the Guardian, Wikipedia
doesn’t fundraise year round in all countries. In our larger campaigns,
other than “pre-campaign testing,” we generally fundraise for a total of 4
weeks in any one country each year. In just a few moments, we need to try
and educate our readers efficiently and effectively about who we are and
make a convincing pitch for their support.

Our messaging isn’t static and it is in a constant state of change. And our
content doesn’t just change according to test results. Specifically it
changes in response to feedback like yours and the others on this thread.
When we hear from community members, donors or members of the public that
something in our banners isn’t working or seems disingenuous, we take that
feedback extremely seriously and it will help guide where we spend our
efforts testing. In the last year in our desktop messaging, we removed
lines such as “If Wikipedia became commercial, it would be a great loss to
the world”. The reference to coffee has also, for the time being, been
retired from the desktop large banner for the past 10 days. As recently as
today, we’ve softened the intro to our desktop messaging in an attempt to
reduce a perceived alarmist tone. A few weeks back, when we asked the
community to choose a rewrite for the second half of our desktop large
appeal, 40 people took part and we adopted the most popular variant.

Last year, we received important feedback on our mobile banners regarding
their length. Whilst we made changes to the designs last year, it doesn’t
mean that we have forgotten about that feedback. Throughout the last 3
weeks, we have run numerous tests focused on decreasing the length of the
banner through design or messaging changes, and we’ve been able to shave
off a further fraction from the banner even though there was a reduction in
effectiveness.

Going forward, if community members want me to look into setting up regular
office hours on IRC or Google Hangouts or some other venue we can do that.
We’ve run it before and if the interest is there happy to do this again. If
there other venues or methods you feel would work I’m open to ideas. Either
way the fundraising team does listen to feedback and does act on that
feedback. The team genuinely believes it's possible to reach our goals and
make the community proud and I think we’ve come a long way over the years.

Thank you again for your questions and others for their feedback.
Seddon

[1]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Fundraising_donor_research_findings.pdf
[2]
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/foundation/e/ef/Report.WikimediaJapan.f.071916.pdf

On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 8:27 PM Benjamin Ikuta <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>
>
> My dad recently said to me:
>
> "I was solitated by them after looking something up.  I thought it strange
> the way they were pleading for donations. They made it sound like they
> might be shutting down if we the general public didn't donate."
>
> Has there been any research into how common it is for readers to get the
> wrong impression from the marketing messaging?
>
> I've heard of this sort of thing happening before, and I think it's highly
> antithetical to our values to be deceptive.
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>



--
Seddon

*Community and Audience Engagement Associate*
*Advancement (Fundraising), Wikimedia Foundation*
_______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Donating to Wikipedia

Joseph Seddon-6
In reply to this post by MZMcBride-2
 I know the history of our content and I know the slip ups that have been
made along the way but the team take this seriously. Our internal review
processes have significantly improved over the years and for this
fundraiser it's definitely been our most rigorous yet and I think it's
proven to be pretty effective. The scale of the fundraiser means that
things will slip through because there are human beings involved. But I
promise you that the people I work with are holding themselves to a
standard of honesty in our content. I and others wouldn't work here if that
wasn't the case.

Seddon

On Fri, Dec 20, 2019 at 7:05 AM MZMcBride <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Samuel Klein wrote:
> >[Some banners are so delightful that they are a welcome improvement to a
> >page without; and I've occasionally thought we should run some of those,
> >w/ low probability, continuously year-round.]
>
> Which banners are delightful? The ones I've seen this year take up two
> pages of scrolling on mobile. This isn't cute or endearing; as you and
> others note, it's alarming to many people.
>
> As I imagine I've said previously, I think it's helpful to call this type
> of behavior what it is: spam or advertising. Calling it "fundraising" or
> speaking of "banners" makes it a lot easier to brush aside how intrusive
> and obnoxious this code is and the damaging impact it has.
>
> Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >Isn't it about time that the Wikimedia Foundation came to terms that
> > /plenty/ of money is made through sensible fundraising, without every
> >year embarrassing the whole Wikimedia Community by promoting the
> > impression that Wikipedia is about to close down if the public don't
> > give them enough money to keep their servers powered up over
> > Christmas? Making 10% more money every year is growth for the sake of
> > it unless we can understand in an accountable and transparent way
> > where that extra 10% is needed; preferably right there in the
> > fundraising banner so folks don't get the impression that Wikipedia is
> > about to vanish.
>
> Yes, absolutely. While there's often talk of "Wikimedia values", it's
> always been incredible to me to see the exact confines of those values
> from Wikimedia Foundation Inc. staff who are charged with bringing in
> money. For years, there have been complaints about this spam being
> borderline deceitful; in some cases the spam has been outright misleading
> or wrong. How does tricking people into thinking that Wikipedia will stop
> surviving if they don't give $5 an acceptable practice?
>
> MZMcBride
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>



--
Seddon

*Community and Audience Engagement Associate*
*Advancement (Fundraising), Wikimedia Foundation*
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Donating to Wikipedia

Fæ
In reply to this post by Joseph Seddon-6
On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 at 19:24, Joseph Seddon <[hidden email]> wrote:
> ... but the
> movement has set itself some pretty significant goals for the next 10
> years.

Could you provide a link to where the movement, presumably not the
report published in February 2018 that was written by the
"Foundation’s staff and its consulting teams", has agreed and set the
specific measurable goals to be met over the next 10 years that
fundraising is aiming for?

Thanks in advance,
Fae
--
[hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Donating to Wikipedia

Joseph Seddon-6
Apologies if my response seemed to infer something I did not intend it to.
I was referring to the strategic direction which provides high level goals
for the movement as a whole developed by people from across the movement.

Measureable contributions in working towards those goals, comes down to the
strategies of the various communities and organisations composing
Wikimedia. In terms of the Wikimedia Foundation, the first phase of its
strategic planning in working towards the direction is laid out within its
medium term plan. Part of that includes funding the work of affiliates
globally, all of whom will hopefully have their own strategies in working
towards the 2030 direction.

Fundraisings role is to not aim for those goals but to generate the
resources to support their delivery.

Regards
Seddon

On Fri, Dec 20, 2019 at 8:11 PM Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 at 19:24, Joseph Seddon <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > ... but the
> > movement has set itself some pretty significant goals for the next 10
> > years.
>
> Could you provide a link to where the movement, presumably not the
> report published in February 2018 that was written by the
> "Foundation’s staff and its consulting teams", has agreed and set the
> specific measurable goals to be met over the next 10 years that
> fundraising is aiming for?
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Fae
> --
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Seddon

*Community and Audience Engagement Associate*
*Advancement (Fundraising), Wikimedia Foundation*
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