[Wikimedia-l] Fuck the community, who cares

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[Wikimedia-l] Fuck the community, who cares

Tomasz W. Kozlowski
This week's issue of the English Wikipedia Signpost delivers mildly
shocking news about the opinion of a "prominent female Wikimedian (...)
about the meaning of the movement and the role of the chapters" as
expressed during the Boards training workshop that took place between
March 1-2 in London.

The Wikimedian is quoted by the treasurer of Wikimedia Deutschland,
Steffen Prößdorf, as saying: "if we can buy free knowledge, we should do
that [and] just forget about the communities" and "Fuck the community,
who cares."

I understand that the identity of the person will remain secret, given
that there is no public list of attendees of the workshop, so let me
just say that the idea that chapters can "fuck the community" is
absolutely unacceptable and should by rejected by all chapters immediately.

Read more at:
*
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2014-04-02/News_and_notes>
*
<http://steproe.wordpress.com/2014/04/05/die-sinnfrage-was-ist-der-zweck-von-wikimedia-deutschland/>

                 Tomasz

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fuck the community, who cares

Fred Bauder-2
Once the money an organization obtain from grants out matches anything
they get from anywhere else they become autonomous. "Community support"
just becomes a box to check.

Fred

> This week's issue of the English Wikipedia Signpost delivers mildly
> shocking news about the opinion of a "prominent female Wikimedian (...)
> about the meaning of the movement and the role of the chapters" as
> expressed during the Boards training workshop that took place between
> March 1-2 in London.
>
> The Wikimedian is quoted by the treasurer of Wikimedia Deutschland,
> Steffen Prößdorf, as saying: "if we can buy free knowledge, we should
> do
> that [and] just forget about the communities" and "Fuck the community,
> who cares."
>
> I understand that the identity of the person will remain secret, given
> that there is no public list of attendees of the workshop, so let me
> just say that the idea that chapters can "fuck the community" is
> absolutely unacceptable and should by rejected by all chapters
> immediately.
>
> Read more at:
> *
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2014-04-02/News_and_notes>
> *
> <http://steproe.wordpress.com/2014/04/05/die-sinnfrage-was-ist-der-zweck-von-wikimedia-deutschland/>
>
>                  Tomasz
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fuck the community, who cares

Ziko van Dijk-2
Hello,
I think that a single quote by a unnamed "female Wikimedian", said in
public or in private, is a very small basis for any substantiate
criticism...
Kind regards
Ziko



Am Montag, 7. April 2014 schrieb Fred Bauder :

> Once the money an organization obtain from grants out matches anything
> they get from anywhere else they become autonomous. "Community support"
> just becomes a box to check.
>
> Fred
>
> > This week's issue of the English Wikipedia Signpost delivers mildly
> > shocking news about the opinion of a "prominent female Wikimedian (...)
> > about the meaning of the movement and the role of the chapters" as
> > expressed during the Boards training workshop that took place between
> > March 1-2 in London.
> >
> > The Wikimedian is quoted by the treasurer of Wikimedia Deutschland,
> > Steffen Prößdorf, as saying: "if we can buy free knowledge, we should
> > do
> > that [and] just forget about the communities" and "Fuck the community,
> > who cares."
> >
> > I understand that the identity of the person will remain secret, given
> > that there is no public list of attendees of the workshop, so let me
> > just say that the idea that chapters can "fuck the community" is
> > absolutely unacceptable and should by rejected by all chapters
> > immediately.
> >
> > Read more at:
> > *
> > <
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2014-04-02/News_and_notes
> >
> > *
> > <
> http://steproe.wordpress.com/2014/04/05/die-sinnfrage-was-ist-der-zweck-von-wikimedia-deutschland/
> >
> >
> >                  Tomasz
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > [hidden email] <javascript:;>
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email] <javascript:;>
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email] <javascript:;>
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email] <javascript:;>
> ?subject=unsubscribe>



--

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Ziko van Dijk

Vereniging Wikimedia Nederland
Postbus 167
3500 AD Utrecht
http://wikimedia.nl
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fuck the community, who cares

Chris Keating-2
In reply to this post by Tomasz W. Kozlowski
As one of the organisers of the workshop, I feel I ought to chime in here.

If I remember correctly, those remarks were made as a passing comment in a
very emotional session about the role of movement organisations. I don't
believe anyone present took them to heart.

Indeed, the vast majority of people at the workshop were Wikimedians who'd
recently been elected to Chapter boards, who have strong roots in the
community and are starting to get to grips with how to run an organisation!

I'd certainly suggest people read Steffen's blog post (even if through
google translate) or indeed the minutes of the workshop, for a bit more
context;

http://steproe.wordpress.com/2014/04/05/die-sinnfrage-was-ist-der-zweck-von-wikimedia-deutschland/

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Boards_training_workshop_March_2014/Minutes

Regards,

Chris



On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 10:03 AM, Tomasz W. Kozlowski <[hidden email]
> wrote:

> This week's issue of the English Wikipedia Signpost delivers mildly
> shocking news about the opinion of a "prominent female Wikimedian (...)
> about the meaning of the movement and the role of the chapters" as
> expressed during the Boards training workshop that took place between March
> 1-2 in London.
>
> The Wikimedian is quoted by the treasurer of Wikimedia Deutschland,
> Steffen Prößdorf, as saying: "if we can buy free knowledge, we should do
> that [and] just forget about the communities" and "Fuck the community, who
> cares."
>
> I understand that the identity of the person will remain secret, given
> that there is no public list of attendees of the workshop, so let me just
> say that the idea that chapters can "fuck the community" is absolutely
> unacceptable and should by rejected by all chapters immediately.
>
> Read more at:
> * <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_
> Signpost/2014-04-02/News_and_notes>
> * <http://steproe.wordpress.com/2014/04/05/die-sinnfrage-was-
> ist-der-zweck-von-wikimedia-deutschland/>
>
>                 Tomasz
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fuck the community, who cares

Johan Jönsson
In reply to this post by Ziko van Dijk-2
2014-04-07 11:46 GMT+02:00 Ziko van Dijk <[hidden email]>:

> Hello,
> I think that a single quote by a unnamed "female Wikimedian", said in
> public or in private, is a very small basis for any substantiate
> criticism...
>

Hear, hear.

The senitment would be extremely problematic if widespread, of course. But
we don't need a great debate based on one (out-of-context) quote from one
anonymous person.

//Johan Jönsson
--
http://wikipediabloggen.se
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fuck the community, who cares

Tomasz W. Kozlowski
In reply to this post by Ziko van Dijk-2
Ziko van Dijk wrote

> I think that a single quote by a unnamed "female Wikimedian", said in
> public or in private, is a very small basis for any substantiate
> criticism...

Thanks to Chris e-mail's, we now know that the comment was made during a
public session (though I can't find the relevant section in the minutes
on Meta).

That the identity of the person is currently unknown is due to the fact
that it has not been revealed by other participants in that workshop;
I'm sure Chris, and Steffen, and other people know very well who that
person is.

I'm used to the secrecy, but I find it deeply disturbing that such a
comment could have been made during a public workshop "in passing";
however, it would fit perfectly in the alleged divisions between some
chapters and their respective communities.

Where the idea that a single entity (here: a chapter) knows better
what's best for a community than the community does itself come from,
I'm not sure.

                 Tomasz

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fuck the community, who cares

David Gerard-2
On 7 April 2014 11:16, Tomasz W. Kozlowski <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I'm used to the secrecy, but I find it deeply disturbing that such a comment
> could have been made during a public workshop "in passing"; however, it
> would fit perfectly in the alleged divisions between some chapters and their
> respective communities.


That translates to "OK, I have nothing; however, I'll assert I do anyway."


- d.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fuck the community, who cares

Tomasz W. Kozlowski
David Gerard wrote:

> That translates to "OK, I have nothing; however, I'll assert I do anyway."

Which of the words from the sentence I wrote require translation for
you? The idea that there are divisions between chapters and communities
is not a new one; I personally have seen people mention it in various
places many, many times.

If that is indeed the case, the comment to "fuck the community" would
fit quite well in the divisions that /some/ people are alleging exist.

                 Tomasz

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fuck the community, who cares

Fæ
> If that is indeed the case, the comment to "fuck the community" would fit
> quite well in the divisions that /some/ people are alleging exist.
>                 Tomasz

Could whoever is being quoted as saying this please come forward
publicly and explain what they meant?

If this was anything more than a bad joke, then I would expect someone
who made views like this, while representing our community of
volunteers to be asked by their Board to resign their elected or
appointed position. I urge those who were at the meeting, to
demonstrate appropriate community leadership and encourage the person
they know to have expressed this viewpoint to come forward and explain
themselves in their own words.

Fae
--
[hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fuck the community, who cares

Steffen Prößdorf
Hi Folks,

please do not pick out that single point and overestimate it.
I have not mentioned this to dupe anyone, but only to illustrate the
conflict of alignment or the objective of the chapters. The opposing
opinions are represented by several Wikimedians on both sides, please do
not harp on this single quote.

Thanks,
Steffen


2014-04-07 12:33 GMT+02:00 Fæ <[hidden email]>:

> > If that is indeed the case, the comment to "fuck the community" would fit
> > quite well in the divisions that /some/ people are alleging exist.
> >                 Tomasz
>
> Could whoever is being quoted as saying this please come forward
> publicly and explain what they meant?
>
> If this was anything more than a bad joke, then I would expect someone
> who made views like this, while representing our community of
> volunteers to be asked by their Board to resign their elected or
> appointed position. I urge those who were at the meeting, to
> demonstrate appropriate community leadership and encourage the person
> they know to have expressed this viewpoint to come forward and explain
> themselves in their own words.
>
> Fae
> --
> [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>



--
Steffen Prößdorf
Treasurer, member of the board
Wikimedia Germany - Association for the promotion of free knowledge
http://wikimedia.de
Imagine a world, in which every single human being can freely share in the
sum of all knowledge. That's our commitment.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fuck the community, who cares

Gerard Meijssen-3
In reply to this post by Tomasz W. Kozlowski
Hoi,
What is it that you intend to do. Hang them and, hang them high??

You already know that it was in a very emotional moment ...

What is your objective? What do you expect as a result and how will that be
in everyone's benefit??
Thanks,
     Gerard


On 7 April 2014 12:16, Tomasz W. Kozlowski <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Ziko van Dijk wrote
>
>
>  I think that a single quote by a unnamed "female Wikimedian", said in
>> public or in private, is a very small basis for any substantiate
>> criticism...
>>
>
> Thanks to Chris e-mail's, we now know that the comment was made during a
> public session (though I can't find the relevant section in the minutes on
> Meta).
>
> That the identity of the person is currently unknown is due to the fact
> that it has not been revealed by other participants in that workshop; I'm
> sure Chris, and Steffen, and other people know very well who that person is.
>
> I'm used to the secrecy, but I find it deeply disturbing that such a
> comment could have been made during a public workshop "in passing";
> however, it would fit perfectly in the alleged divisions between some
> chapters and their respective communities.
>
> Where the idea that a single entity (here: a chapter) knows better what's
> best for a community than the community does itself come from, I'm not sure.
>
>
>                 Tomasz
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fuck the community, who cares

Fæ
In reply to this post by Steffen Prößdorf
Steffen, the Wikimedia movement expects board members on Wikimedia
organizations to be fulfilling their role as representatives of our
movement. If you misquoted please explain that this is the case.

As at a public workshop that cost the movement a significant amount of
our donor's money to pay for, there is no reason for secrecy about
this, everyone there is accountable for their time spent at that
workshop. The quote has not been challenged. It would benefit us all
to hear why this was said and to be open to questions about their
leadership role, from the person that made this public statement.

Personally, if an elected or appointed board level member of a chapter
is making public statements like this, I do not want them representing
our movement if they are going to hide away in secret when asked about
it. You know who they are, please ask them to speak for themselves
rather than relying on you and your colleagues to run interference or
take this story on tangents.

Fae

On 7 April 2014 11:42, Steffen Prößdorf <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Folks,
>
> please do not pick out that single point and overestimate it.
> I have not mentioned this to dupe anyone, but only to illustrate the
> conflict of alignment or the objective of the chapters. The opposing
> opinions are represented by several Wikimedians on both sides, please do
> not harp on this single quote.
>
> Thanks,
> Steffen
>
>
> 2014-04-07 12:33 GMT+02:00 Fæ <[hidden email]>:
>
>> > If that is indeed the case, the comment to "fuck the community" would fit
>> > quite well in the divisions that /some/ people are alleging exist.
>> >                 Tomasz
>>
>> Could whoever is being quoted as saying this please come forward
>> publicly and explain what they meant?
>>
>> If this was anything more than a bad joke, then I would expect someone
>> who made views like this, while representing our community of
>> volunteers to be asked by their Board to resign their elected or
>> appointed position. I urge those who were at the meeting, to
>> demonstrate appropriate community leadership and encourage the person
>> they know to have expressed this viewpoint to come forward and explain
>> themselves in their own words.
>>
>> Fae
--
[hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fuck the community, who cares

Russavia
In reply to this post by Gerard Meijssen-3
I don't believe Tomasz said anything about hanging them and hanging them
high.

But if there are movementarians who hold this point of view, they should be
able to speak up publicly and present that point of view.

I, for one, don't disagree with paid editing, so long as it is inline with
expected community standards.

Having such a person within the chapters who does hold such views is a
great thing (perhaps not the fuck the community part though), and they
should be encouraged to come forward and make their views known.

Whether they are prepared for the tarring and feathering they will receive
at the hands of dedicated movementarians is another matter entirely.
Obviously it is an issue for some, otherwise Steffen wouldn't have blabbed
about it to The Signpost. But no-one wants a repeat of the disgraceful
public hanging that Fae suffered at their hands.

Cheers,

Russavia


On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 6:52 PM, Gerard Meijssen
<[hidden email]>wrote:

> Hoi,
> What is it that you intend to do. Hang them and, hang them high??
>
> You already know that it was in a very emotional moment ...
>
> What is your objective? What do you expect as a result and how will that be
> in everyone's benefit??
> Thanks,
>      Gerard
>
>
> On 7 April 2014 12:16, Tomasz W. Kozlowski <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Ziko van Dijk wrote
> >
> >
> >  I think that a single quote by a unnamed "female Wikimedian", said in
> >> public or in private, is a very small basis for any substantiate
> >> criticism...
> >>
> >
> > Thanks to Chris e-mail's, we now know that the comment was made during a
> > public session (though I can't find the relevant section in the minutes
> on
> > Meta).
> >
> > That the identity of the person is currently unknown is due to the fact
> > that it has not been revealed by other participants in that workshop; I'm
> > sure Chris, and Steffen, and other people know very well who that person
> is.
> >
> > I'm used to the secrecy, but I find it deeply disturbing that such a
> > comment could have been made during a public workshop "in passing";
> > however, it would fit perfectly in the alleged divisions between some
> > chapters and their respective communities.
> >
> > Where the idea that a single entity (here: a chapter) knows better what's
> > best for a community than the community does itself come from, I'm not
> sure.
> >
> >
> >                 Tomasz
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fuck the community, who cares

Chris Keating-2
In reply to this post by Fæ
I'd certainly hope not. One of the ground rules for the workshop was that
individual contributions were made on a confidential and non-attributable
basis.

This was exactly because we wanted people to speak freely and not worry
about a witch-hunt on an email list if a couple of trolls got hold of some
out-of-context quotes.

Chris
On 7 Apr 2014 11:56, "Fæ" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Steffen, the Wikimedia movement expects board members on Wikimedia
> organizations to be fulfilling their role as representatives of our
> movement. If you misquoted please explain that this is the case.
>
> As at a public workshop that cost the movement a significant amount of
> our donor's money to pay for, there is no reason for secrecy about
> this, everyone there is accountable for their time spent at that
> workshop. The quote has not been challenged. It would benefit us all
> to hear why this was said and to be open to questions about their
> leadership role, from the person that made this public statement.
>
> Personally, if an elected or appointed board level member of a chapter
> is making public statements like this, I do not want them representing
> our movement if they are going to hide away in secret when asked about
> it. You know who they are, please ask them to speak for themselves
> rather than relying on you and your colleagues to run interference or
> take this story on tangents.
>
> Fae
>
> On 7 April 2014 11:42, Steffen Prößdorf <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > Hi Folks,
> >
> > please do not pick out that single point and overestimate it.
> > I have not mentioned this to dupe anyone, but only to illustrate the
> > conflict of alignment or the objective of the chapters. The opposing
> > opinions are represented by several Wikimedians on both sides, please do
> > not harp on this single quote.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Steffen
> >
> >
> > 2014-04-07 12:33 GMT+02:00 Fæ <[hidden email]>:
> >
> >> > If that is indeed the case, the comment to "fuck the community" would
> fit
> >> > quite well in the divisions that /some/ people are alleging exist.
> >> >                 Tomasz
> >>
> >> Could whoever is being quoted as saying this please come forward
> >> publicly and explain what they meant?
> >>
> >> If this was anything more than a bad joke, then I would expect someone
> >> who made views like this, while representing our community of
> >> volunteers to be asked by their Board to resign their elected or
> >> appointed position. I urge those who were at the meeting, to
> >> demonstrate appropriate community leadership and encourage the person
> >> they know to have expressed this viewpoint to come forward and explain
> >> themselves in their own words.
> >>
> >> Fae
> --
> [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fuck the community, who cares

Craig Franklin
In reply to this post by Ziko van Dijk-2
I agree with Ziko's point entirely here.  The two people who have taken
part in this discussion so far who were present at the time have not given
anything to indicate it was more than a flippant remark made in a stressful
situation.  Not that I agree with the sentiment of course, but I'm glad
that at this meeting a wide variety of views were obviously put forward and
robustly discussed.

I really have to wonder, do we want a community where the leaders have to
be so anodyne, colourless, and always "on message" that the occasional
"spirited" remark results in the Spanish Inquisition?  Certainly, I would
understand why the person that make the remark might decline to come
forward given the relentless hounding that will inevitably occur.  It seems
to me that what is being asked for by some is more than can be reasonably
expected from a human being.  Personally, speaking as a Wikimedia donor and
a member of the community, I prefer to be lead by fallible human beings
rather than robots.

Cheers,
Craig


On 7 April 2014 19:46, Ziko van Dijk <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hello,
> I think that a single quote by a unnamed "female Wikimedian", said in
> public or in private, is a very small basis for any substantiate
> criticism...
> Kind regards
> Ziko
>
>
>
> Am Montag, 7. April 2014 schrieb Fred Bauder :
>
> > Once the money an organization obtain from grants out matches anything
> > they get from anywhere else they become autonomous. "Community support"
> > just becomes a box to check.
> >
> > Fred
> >
> > > This week's issue of the English Wikipedia Signpost delivers mildly
> > > shocking news about the opinion of a "prominent female Wikimedian (...)
> > > about the meaning of the movement and the role of the chapters" as
> > > expressed during the Boards training workshop that took place between
> > > March 1-2 in London.
> > >
> > > The Wikimedian is quoted by the treasurer of Wikimedia Deutschland,
> > > Steffen Prößdorf, as saying: "if we can buy free knowledge, we should
> > > do
> > > that [and] just forget about the communities" and "Fuck the community,
> > > who cares."
> > >
> > > I understand that the identity of the person will remain secret, given
> > > that there is no public list of attendees of the workshop, so let me
> > > just say that the idea that chapters can "fuck the community" is
> > > absolutely unacceptable and should by rejected by all chapters
> > > immediately.
> > >
> > > Read more at:
> > > *
> > > <
> >
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2014-04-02/News_and_notes
> > >
> > > *
> > > <
> >
> http://steproe.wordpress.com/2014/04/05/die-sinnfrage-was-ist-der-zweck-von-wikimedia-deutschland/
> > >
> > >
> > >                  Tomasz
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > > [hidden email] <javascript:;>
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email] <javascript:;>
> > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > [hidden email] <javascript:;>
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>
>
>
> --
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Dr. Ziko van Dijk
>
> Vereniging Wikimedia Nederland
> Postbus 167
> 3500 AD Utrecht
> http://wikimedia.nl
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fuck the community, who cares

Fæ
In reply to this post by Chris Keating-2
Chris, rather than again[1] using school-boy politics by defaming
people you don't like with personal attacks, please read Tomasz'
request: "the idea that chapters can "fuck the community" is
absolutely unacceptable and should by rejected by all chapters
immediately".

Now, show some leadership and answer a simple direct question. Do you,
or do you not as a trustee of Wikimedia UK and the person that was
responsible for leading this costly workshop, reject the philosophy of
"fuck the community"?

I have asked for the person that made this statement to come forward
and explain themselves. If they cannot, then they must realise they
can no longer claim to be accountable to the community and neither can
their board.

Links:
1. http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Commons:Administrators/Requests/F%C3%A64&diff=116374702&oldid=116372563
Fae

On 7 April 2014 12:10, Chris Keating <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I'd certainly hope not. One of the ground rules for the workshop was that
> individual contributions were made on a confidential and non-attributable
> basis.
>
> This was exactly because we wanted people to speak freely and not worry
> about a witch-hunt on an email list if a couple of trolls got hold of some
> out-of-context quotes.
>
> Chris
> On 7 Apr 2014 11:56, "Fæ" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Steffen, the Wikimedia movement expects board members on Wikimedia
>> organizations to be fulfilling their role as representatives of our
>> movement. If you misquoted please explain that this is the case.
>>
>> As at a public workshop that cost the movement a significant amount of
>> our donor's money to pay for, there is no reason for secrecy about
>> this, everyone there is accountable for their time spent at that
>> workshop. The quote has not been challenged. It would benefit us all
>> to hear why this was said and to be open to questions about their
>> leadership role, from the person that made this public statement.
>>
>> Personally, if an elected or appointed board level member of a chapter
>> is making public statements like this, I do not want them representing
>> our movement if they are going to hide away in secret when asked about
>> it. You know who they are, please ask them to speak for themselves
>> rather than relying on you and your colleagues to run interference or
>> take this story on tangents.
>>
>> Fae
>>
>> On 7 April 2014 11:42, Steffen Prößdorf <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>> > Hi Folks,
>> >
>> > please do not pick out that single point and overestimate it.
>> > I have not mentioned this to dupe anyone, but only to illustrate the
>> > conflict of alignment or the objective of the chapters. The opposing
>> > opinions are represented by several Wikimedians on both sides, please do
>> > not harp on this single quote.
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> > Steffen
>> >
>> >
>> > 2014-04-07 12:33 GMT+02:00 Fæ <[hidden email]>:
>> >
>> >> > If that is indeed the case, the comment to "fuck the community" would
>> fit
>> >> > quite well in the divisions that /some/ people are alleging exist.
>> >> >                 Tomasz
>> >>
>> >> Could whoever is being quoted as saying this please come forward
>> >> publicly and explain what they meant?
>> >>
>> >> If this was anything more than a bad joke, then I would expect someone
>> >> who made views like this, while representing our community of
>> >> volunteers to be asked by their Board to resign their elected or
>> >> appointed position. I urge those who were at the meeting, to
>> >> demonstrate appropriate community leadership and encourage the person
>> >> they know to have expressed this viewpoint to come forward and explain
>> >> themselves in their own words.
>> >>
>> >> Fae
>> --
>> [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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--
[hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
Personal and confidential, please do not circulate or re-quote.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fuck the community, who cares

Tomasz W. Kozlowski
In reply to this post by Chris Keating-2
Chris Keating wrote:

> This was exactly because we wanted people to speak freely and not worry
> about a witch-hunt on an email list if a couple of trolls got hold of some
> out-of-context quotes.

I wish you answered the question instead of smearing me on a public
mailing list, Chris. I have no idea who you are, but I would expect you
to adhere to elementary rules of debating, which suggest not to resort
to personal attacks.

If you are a Wikipedian, I should not have to explain this to you.

What a shameful comment, Chris.

                 Tomasz

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fuck the community, who cares

Christophe Henner
Ok so the quote taken out of context is actually saying the opposite
of the original meaning.

The discussion was about "what are the goals of the Wikimedia
Organizations?". Why do they exist?

If we look at what Wikimedia Organizations do, mostly, is investing in
free knowledge. If that's their main goal, well then we don't have to
care about the communities. That was said as a way to shock people and
make them think about why Wikimedia Organizations exist and perhaps
that they should rethink their goal and their focus. Make
organizations think a little more about the communities instead of
sheer free knowledge production.

In that same session I did say some pretty radical things, if you take
some sentences out of my 10 minutes monologue (yeah I kinda tend to
speak a lot :() you could say that I said "let's disband all Wikimedia
Organizations".

Taking a single sentence totally out of context can lead, as it is the
case here, to change it's true meaning.

No need for any witch hunt here, I can't think of anyone in our
community that doesn't value a lot volunteer and community work as we
are all part of that community.

Best,
--
Christophe


On 7 April 2014 13:37, Tomasz W. Kozlowski <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Chris Keating wrote:
>
>> This was exactly because we wanted people to speak freely and not worry
>> about a witch-hunt on an email list if a couple of trolls got hold of some
>> out-of-context quotes.
>
>
> I wish you answered the question instead of smearing me on a public mailing
> list, Chris. I have no idea who you are, but I would expect you to adhere to
> elementary rules of debating, which suggest not to resort to personal
> attacks.
>
> If you are a Wikipedian, I should not have to explain this to you.
>
> What a shameful comment, Chris.
>
>                 Tomasz
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fuck the community, who cares

Martijn Hoekstra
In reply to this post by Tomasz W. Kozlowski
On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 1:37 PM, Tomasz W. Kozlowski
<[hidden email]>wrote:

> Chris Keating wrote:
>
>  This was exactly because we wanted people to speak freely and not worry
>> about a witch-hunt on an email list if a couple of trolls got hold of some
>> out-of-context quotes.
>>
>
> I wish you answered the question instead of smearing me on a public
> mailing list, Chris. I have no idea who you are, but I would expect you to
> adhere to elementary rules of debating, which suggest not to resort to
> personal attacks.
>
> If you are a Wikipedian, I should not have to explain this to you.
>

I call no real Scotsman.

--Martijn Hoekstra


> What a shameful comment, Chris.
>
>                 Tomasz
>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fuck the community, who cares

Jan-Bart de Vreede-3
In reply to this post by Christophe Henner
Hi All,

I was not present at this meeting, but gather that it was a weekend that was valued by all that attended. As Chris has already indicated, he does not agree with the remark and I think that all of us disagree with the remar (and that is discounting the fact that the whole statement is taken out of context which makes a big difference)

But in the middle of a heated discussion, things get said. Chris has indicated that one of the ground rules for the workshop was that individual contributions were made on a confidential and non-attributable basis. And I agree that I would be terrible to break this confidentiality as this would severely limit the effectiveness of future sessions within the movement because feel people that they cannot be frank. As a movement we have a tremendous challenge ahead of us in the coming years, and we need open interaction amongst the different entities in order to make progress on these goals. Are we really interested in a movement where all volunteer board members are constantly being politically correct and cannot misspeak (whereas other community members can?). I for one would enjoy an open environment rather than a punishing one which closely resembles some of the political environments we read so much about.

Can we assume that the feedback has already reached the person in question (and the person probably got more than enough feedback during and after the session). Does it really benefit us as a movement to force this person to resign or be publicly shamed?

Jan-Bart de Vreede
Chair Wikimedia Board of Trustees

PS: whenever Christophe speaks I would be likely to cheer, only to realise minutes later… “What the #(*$& did I just agree with?” ;)



On 07 Apr 2014, at 13:54, Christophe Henner <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Ok so the quote taken out of context is actually saying the opposite
> of the original meaning.
>
> The discussion was about "what are the goals of the Wikimedia
> Organizations?". Why do they exist?
>
> If we look at what Wikimedia Organizations do, mostly, is investing in
> free knowledge. If that's their main goal, well then we don't have to
> care about the communities. That was said as a way to shock people and
> make them think about why Wikimedia Organizations exist and perhaps
> that they should rethink their goal and their focus. Make
> organizations think a little more about the communities instead of
> sheer free knowledge production.
>
> In that same session I did say some pretty radical things, if you take
> some sentences out of my 10 minutes monologue (yeah I kinda tend to
> speak a lot :() you could say that I said "let's disband all Wikimedia
> Organizations".
>
> Taking a single sentence totally out of context can lead, as it is the
> case here, to change it's true meaning.
>
> No need for any witch hunt here, I can't think of anyone in our
> community that doesn't value a lot volunteer and community work as we
> are all part of that community.
>
> Best,
> --
> Christophe
>
>
> On 7 April 2014 13:37, Tomasz W. Kozlowski <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Chris Keating wrote:
>>
>>> This was exactly because we wanted people to speak freely and not worry
>>> about a witch-hunt on an email list if a couple of trolls got hold of some
>>> out-of-context quotes.
>>
>>
>> I wish you answered the question instead of smearing me on a public mailing
>> list, Chris. I have no idea who you are, but I would expect you to adhere to
>> elementary rules of debating, which suggest not to resort to personal
>> attacks.
>>
>> If you are a Wikipedian, I should not have to explain this to you.
>>
>> What a shameful comment, Chris.
>>
>>                Tomasz
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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