[Wikimedia-l] GPS data shift

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[Wikimedia-l] GPS data shift

Gnangarra
G'day

This story raises an interesting question
http://www.sciencealert.com/turns-out-australia-isn-t-where-you-think-it-is

In short the GPS location of Australia is about to be adjusted 1.5m or
about 5feet I know its not as significant as the change of 1994 when it was
adjusted 200m.  This shift that will alter all the GPS data held in
Wikidata and alter the positioning of media files which have been
 geolocated.

The question is are there any plans to bulk update all of this information,
or will it rely on individual changes to be made to each piece of data.  As
a secondary question do we even change the location of media files as that
data is accurate to when the media was created.

--
G
​nangarra​

President Wikimedia Australia
WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] GPS data shift

Joseph Seddon-6
So on this issue I currently only speak on the "bulk updating" issue and I
would like to note that I do not speak for the discovery team who have the
most focus on both geodata and Wikidata. However I do have a decent passing
knowledge about this:

This is a pretty complex issue compounded that geographical data has
historically been pretty unloved over the years not just by mediawiki
(wikidata support as well) because it is an extremely complex thing by it's
very nature.. Unfortunately this leads to click bait by people like the
National Geographic "Australia Is Drifting So Fast GPS Can't Keep Up".

*1)* *GPS does not equal GDA94 *
Firstly GPS itself is not changing at this point (It does get periodic
adjustments but this is not one of them). In this instance it is that
Australia is moving from one conventional datum (GDA94
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geocentric_Datum_of_Australia_1994) to a new
conventional datum with the aim for it to be used in perpetuity - GDA2020 (
http://www.icsm.gov.au/geodesy/modern.html - No wikipedia article, I should
probably write it) and also at the same time creating a new reference
system ATRS (Australian Terrestrial Reference System -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Terrestrial_Reference_System).

GDA94 uses the exact same number system as WGS84 (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Geodetic_System) which adds to the
confusion.

Which leads me to point 2 -

*2)* *Wikimedia Coordinates are assumed to be WGS84 *
Wikimedia has typically used WGS84 coordinates because of their
universality especially on the web (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_Mercator). Generally we don't support
providing local cartographic grids within articles (at least not I can't
seems to find such support)  Unfortunately what this means is that we have
to assume that grid references we currently use and store are WGS84
coordinates. However this comes with problems because sometimes WGS84 is
updated as geodetic and dynamic plate models improve. There is additional
vital metadata needed for this.

Unfortunately we currently do not store that information within Wikipedia
articles or  which leads to point 3 -

*3) Without the correct metadata, it's impossible to the job well *
Because currently there is no clear indication within Wikipedia articles
and as far as I can tell within Wikidata as to both what *datum* and what
*version* any particular coordinate relates to, there is no guarantee that
any particular coordinate would be any more correct than it was before.

Going forward we should really should greatly increase the amount of
support for geographic metadata within Wikidata. As a result coordinate
updates, even fairly minor ones, create inordinate amounts of unnecessary
work for volunteers. Good metadata with allows us (either WMF or
volunteers) to use translation models that should allow us to be able to
maintain such data with minimal volunteer overhead. Without it, it's a
headache.

I hope I explained that well... Make sense?

--

Seddon
*The Silent Cartographer*


On Mon, Oct 3, 2016 at 3:33 PM, Gnangarra <[hidden email]> wrote:

> G'day
>
> This story raises an interesting question
> http://www.sciencealert.com/turns-out-australia-isn-t-where-
> you-think-it-is
>
> In short the GPS location of Australia is about to be adjusted 1.5m or
> about 5feet I know its not as significant as the change of 1994 when it was
> adjusted 200m.  This shift that will alter all the GPS data held in
> Wikidata and alter the positioning of media files which have been
>  geolocated.
>
> The question is are there any plans to bulk update all of this information,
> or will it rely on individual changes to be made to each piece of data.  As
> a secondary question do we even change the location of media files as that
> data is accurate to when the media was created.
>
> --
> G
> ​nangarra​
>
> President Wikimedia Australia
> WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
> Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
> i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>




--
Seddon

*Advancement Associate (Community Engagement)*
*Wikimedia Foundation*
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] GPS data shift

Sam Klein
On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 2:01 AM, Joseph Seddon <[hidden email]> wrote:

> currently there is no clear indication within Wikipedia articles
> and as far as I can tell within Wikidata as to both what *datum* and what
> *version* any particular coordinate relates to, there is no guarantee that
> any particular coordinate would be any more correct than it was before.
>

This definitely should be fixed on the wikidata side.  Whether article
editors are savvy enough to know and enter this data is another question;
but at least the geotemplates should have fields for it and you can assume
that if those are empty some {person/bot hybrid} that understands that
nuance should fill them in.

~S
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] GPS data shift

Pine W
Just wondering: would tighter integration between Wikidata and OSM help
with this situation, for example, if a set of coordinates is adjusted in
Wikidata then it is automatically adjusted in OSM and vice versa? Would
that be a good idea?

Pine

On Oct 4, 2016 22:17, "Sam Klein" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 2:01 AM, Joseph Seddon <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > currently there is no clear indication within Wikipedia articles
> > and as far as I can tell within Wikidata as to both what *datum* and what
> > *version* any particular coordinate relates to, there is no guarantee
> that
> > any particular coordinate would be any more correct than it was before.
> >
>
> This definitely should be fixed on the wikidata side.  Whether article
> editors are savvy enough to know and enter this data is another question;
> but at least the geotemplates should have fields for it and you can assume
> that if those are empty some {person/bot hybrid} that understands that
> nuance should fill them in.
>
> ~S
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] GPS data shift

Simon Poole
While this might sound like a good idea, at least the answer for
wikidata -> OSM would be no, mainly for legal/licensing reasons. The
other way around would potentially impact wikidatas licensing and would
need at least some discussion.

Simon

On 05.10.2016 17:12, Pine W wrote:

> Just wondering: would tighter integration between Wikidata and OSM help
> with this situation, for example, if a set of coordinates is adjusted in
> Wikidata then it is automatically adjusted in OSM and vice versa? Would
> that be a good idea?
>
> Pine
>
> On Oct 4, 2016 22:17, "Sam Klein" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 2:01 AM, Joseph Seddon <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> currently there is no clear indication within Wikipedia articles
>>> and as far as I can tell within Wikidata as to both what *datum* and what
>>> *version* any particular coordinate relates to, there is no guarantee
>> that
>>> any particular coordinate would be any more correct than it was before.
>>>
>> This definitely should be fixed on the wikidata side.  Whether article
>> editors are savvy enough to know and enter this data is another question;
>> but at least the geotemplates should have fields for it and you can assume
>> that if those are empty some {person/bot hybrid} that understands that
>> nuance should fill them in.
>>
>> ~S
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
>> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>> New messages to: [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] GPS data shift

Gerard Meijssen-3
Hoi,
There is no room for impacting the Wikidata licensing. There is no question
that it is CC-0 and stays that way. The main thing is the database license
and it is what we happily wave as our data is mainly secondary anyway.
Thanks,
     GerardM

On 5 October 2016 at 21:04, Simon Poole <[hidden email]> wrote:

> While this might sound like a good idea, at least the answer for
> wikidata -> OSM would be no, mainly for legal/licensing reasons. The
> other way around would potentially impact wikidatas licensing and would
> need at least some discussion.
>
> Simon
>
> On 05.10.2016 17:12, Pine W wrote:
> > Just wondering: would tighter integration between Wikidata and OSM help
> > with this situation, for example, if a set of coordinates is adjusted in
> > Wikidata then it is automatically adjusted in OSM and vice versa? Would
> > that be a good idea?
> >
> > Pine
> >
> > On Oct 4, 2016 22:17, "Sam Klein" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 2:01 AM, Joseph Seddon <[hidden email]>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> currently there is no clear indication within Wikipedia articles
> >>> and as far as I can tell within Wikidata as to both what *datum* and
> what
> >>> *version* any particular coordinate relates to, there is no guarantee
> >> that
> >>> any particular coordinate would be any more correct than it was before.
> >>>
> >> This definitely should be fixed on the wikidata side.  Whether article
> >> editors are savvy enough to know and enter this data is another
> question;
> >> but at least the geotemplates should have fields for it and you can
> assume
> >> that if those are empty some {person/bot hybrid} that understands that
> >> nuance should fill them in.
> >>
> >> ~S
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> >> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> >> New messages to: [hidden email]
> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> >> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
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> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] GPS data shift

Mormegil
In reply to this post by Simon Poole
Hi,

On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 9:04 PM, Simon Poole <[hidden email]> wrote:

> While this might sound like a good idea, at least the answer for
> wikidata -> OSM would be no, mainly for legal/licensing reasons.


Why? I would expect CC0 to be simply relicensable under ODbL (cf.
https://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.en.html#CC0). The other way, as
you say, would be more problematical, ODbL-licensed content cannot be
simply imported into CC0-licensed database.

Regards,
-- [[cs:User:Mormegil | Petr Kadlec]]
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] GPS data shift

Simon Poole
On 06.10.2016 17:54, Petr Kadlec wrote:

> ..
> Why? I would expect CC0 to be simply relicensable under ODbL (cf.
> https://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.en.html#CC0). The other way, as
> you say, would be more problematical, ODbL-licensed content cannot be
> simply imported into CC0-licensed database.
>
There are (at least) two issues:

- we (OSM) do not allow anonymous contributions and in general expect
imports to be associated with a real natural persons account. Automated
updating would need to clear some further policy and technical hurdles
on top of that.

- we tend to be fairly picky about our sources and have rather strict
policies on use of data that we consider unsuitable. Standard example:
we would consider coordinates derived from a google provided map as not
usable for OSM. I suspect that providing assurance that the original
sources confirm to our criteria would be at least very difficult for
wikidata.

I should point out that some of the above stems from operating in a
different legal and competitive environment than the WMF projects and a
rather different approach to providing end-user services and products,
not just because we want to be difficult.

To end on a positive note: there is a lot of cooperation going on
between OSM and WP/wikidata, particularly in respect to adding wikidata
references to OSM objects and I don't see why, for example, this
couldn't be used for QA purposes like highlighting changes or large
differences in objects locations and other attributes. This would likely
avoid most of the issues noted above.

Simon





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Re: [Wikimedia-l] GPS data shift

Denny Vrandečić-2
In reply to this post by Sam Klein
Wikidata allows to set a coordinate system - it is called a globe or
coordinate system - on every coordinate. This would be the natural place to
specify whether it is WGS84 or GDA94 or another system. Most of them are
Q2, which, as per data model, is indeed WGS84.

https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikibase/DataModel#Geographic_locations

Unfortunately this is currently not being displayed or edited in the UI,
but the backend has the data. In theory.



On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 10:17 PM Sam Klein <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 2:01 AM, Joseph Seddon <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > currently there is no clear indication within Wikipedia articles
> > and as far as I can tell within Wikidata as to both what *datum* and what
> > *version* any particular coordinate relates to, there is no guarantee
> that
> > any particular coordinate would be any more correct than it was before.
> >
>
> This definitely should be fixed on the wikidata side.  Whether article
> editors are savvy enough to know and enter this data is another question;
> but at least the geotemplates should have fields for it and you can assume
> that if those are empty some {person/bot hybrid} that understands that
> nuance should fill them in.
>
> ~S
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikidata] GPS data shift

Denny Vrandečić-2
Uh, I leave the details to someone who knows better :) - it is a while
since I checked, and it might indeed be underspecified right now.

To the best of my knowledge, there is only one widely used coordinate
system for each Mars and Titan. I might be wrong. But in the worst case we
would need to specify the default system for either.

I am not saying that the whole thing is not a problem - I am just saying
that the data model, as spec'ed and implemented, has a space for solving
it. It is obvious that without support in the UI the whole thing is
slightly moot anyway.



On Fri, Oct 7, 2016 at 2:23 PM Jan Macura <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> 2016-10-07 20:34 GMT+02:00 Denny Vrandečić <[hidden email]>:
>
> Wikidata allows to set a coordinate system - it is called a globe or
> coordinate system - on every coordinate. This would be the natural place to
> specify whether it is WGS84 or GDA94 or another system. Most of them are
> Q2, which, as per data model, is indeed WGS84
>
>
> Hi Denny,
>
> can you be more specific about this? So when there is no explicit value in
> the *globe* parametre of GlobeCoordinate, then it is treated as Q2 (this
> corelates with the dumps and every RDF serialization)? It would imply
> geographic coordinates (not the same as WGS84!!). Or is it considered to be
> specifically WGS84, which is Q11902211?
> And how you tell the coordinate system for other celestial bodies like
> Q111 (Mars) or Q2565 (Titan)?
>
> Thanks a lot
>  Jan
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>
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