[Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

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[Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

Romaine Wiki-2
Hi all,

On Wikipedia and in our movement we are aware of the gendergap that exists
and all kinds of activities are organised to make the gap smaller. I think
this is great as no single gap should exist in collecting all the knowledge
in the world, as well as our movement should be diverse as the world's
population is diverse.

The statistics are clear on this matter, this is something to take care of.
However, a part of the approach is causing problems, because general
statistics should not be applied on individuals as that reduces humans to
numbers only.

The reason why I bring this up is because I recently received an e-mail
from a user in the Wikimedia movement who has (temporarily?) stopped
contributing as she is not happy with a specific aspect of the atmosphere
in Wikimedia.

She does not speak out at loud, but I think we must be aware as movement of
the silent cry, therefore this e-mail to bring awareness (but with respect
for the privacy of this individual).


What has happened?

She was invited to participate in a Wikimedia activity, because:
1. she is a woman
2. she is from a minority
3. she is from an area in the world with much less editors (compared to
Europe/US)

and perhaps also because her colour of her skin is a bit different then
mine (Caucasian).

At the same time she has the impression that the work she does on the
Wikimedia wiki('s) is not valued, nor taken into account.

She does not want to be invited because she is a woman, nor because she is
from a minority, nor ....... etc. This is offensive.
She only wants to be invited because of the work she contributes on
Wikipedia/etc.



Besides the many good initiatives and intentions, this kind of approaches
to our contributors is demotivating them, please be aware of this. I
believe demotivation/frustration is the largest problem we face as movement.


I heard from people that the problem described is called tokenism
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokenism>.


I believe the only way to close the gaps related to gender, minorities,
etc, is to create an atmosphere in what everyone is appreciated for what
she/he is doing, completely unrelated to the gender someone appears to
have, the ethnicity, race, area of the world, etc etc etc etc.

Thank you!

Romaine
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

Amir E. Aharoni
This is a sensitive topic, and I'm a white man myself, so please slap me if
I say something dumb.

2018-05-07 7:10 GMT+03:00 Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]>:

>
> What has happened?
>
> She was invited to participate in a Wikimedia activity, because:
> 1. she is a woman
> 2. she is from a minority
> 3. she is from an area in the world with much less editors (compared to
> Europe/US)
>
> and perhaps also because her colour of her skin is a bit different then
> mine (Caucasian).
>
> At the same time she has the impression that the work she does on the
> Wikimedia wiki('s) is not valued, nor taken into account.
>

By whom?

By the people who invited her?

By other participants in the event?

By other editors in the same wiki site?

By the readers?



> She does not want to be invited because she is a woman, nor because she is
> from a minority, nor ....... etc. This is offensive.
> She only wants to be invited because of the work she contributes on
> Wikipedia/etc.
>

This makes a lot of sense to me, but that's just me and attitudes are
different for each person.


> Besides the many good initiatives and intentions, this kind of approaches
> to our contributors is demotivating them, please be aware of this.


Again, it's probably demotivating to some. Maybe to 98%, maybe to 30%,
maybe to 5%. I honestly don't know.

I believe demotivation/frustration is the largest problem we face as
> movement.
>

I don't know if its the biggest problem. On this mailing list we are a
small group of meta-active Wikimedians, and we are the minority among
editors. We don't actually represent all the editors. And of course the
editors are a tiny minority compared to the readers.

I'd argue that the hard time that some editors are giving newcomers is a
bigger problem. Gender is certainly a part of that, and there are many
other parts.

We meta-wikimedians can find a better way to invite people to events, and
we can change ourselves. That doesn't sound too hard. Changing the wider
editor culture is harder.

I heard from people that the problem described is called tokenism
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokenism>.
>

Yes, that's when representation is given to a weakened group, but that
representation is too weak to be meaningful, and may do more harm than good.


> I believe the only way to close the gaps related to gender, minorities,
> etc, is to create an atmosphere in what everyone is appreciated for what
> she/he is doing, completely unrelated to the gender someone appears to
> have, the ethnicity, race, area of the world, etc etc etc etc.
>

So that's where it gets really complicated, because it's always related, in
ways that are sometimes visible and sometimes invisible.

Let's take school education as a hopefully easy example. People from
different areas of the world will have very different things to write about
it. In some areas of the world everybody gets school education—boys and
girls, rich and poor, rural and urban. In other areas it may be only boys;
or only people in cities; or only people who know a certain language; or
only people who belong to a certain religion; or only people who have a
certain amount of money; or only people who have a certain skin color. I
want articles about education to have contributions from as many people as
possible, from different genders, from different skin colors, and from
different areas, and so on.

An American white woman has different things to say about education from an
American black man. These differences are important and frequently
discussed in American media. But the American white woman and the American
black man *don't even imagine* what people from The Philippines have to say
about education. What people from the Philippines have to say about
education probably has little to do with the internal American debates on
this topic. And of course it breaks down further, because a person who
lives in the capital of Philippines and knows English has different things
to say about education from a person who lives in a village in Philippines
and doesn't know English.

On articles about education I want to hear from all of them. And about
every other topic. (And yes, I want contributions from people who don't
know English in the English Wikipedia. By definition they cannot contribute
directly, but we must do everything we can to make at least an indirect
contribution possible.)

How do we do it right?

How do we get more different people to even try to contribute to articles?
How do we get everybody's contributions to be accepted? (Guess whose
contributions are more likely to be challenged as "non-notable",
"unencyclopedic", or "unreferenced".)

I don't know. Am I even asking the right questions?

--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
‪“We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

Peter Southwood
I think you ask good questions, but some answers are not easy to find.
Cheers,
Peter

-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Amir E. Aharoni
Sent: Monday, May 7, 2018 8:03 AM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

This is a sensitive topic, and I'm a white man myself, so please slap me if
I say something dumb.

2018-05-07 7:10 GMT+03:00 Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]>:

>
> What has happened?
>
> She was invited to participate in a Wikimedia activity, because:
> 1. she is a woman
> 2. she is from a minority
> 3. she is from an area in the world with much less editors (compared to
> Europe/US)
>
> and perhaps also because her colour of her skin is a bit different then
> mine (Caucasian).
>
> At the same time she has the impression that the work she does on the
> Wikimedia wiki('s) is not valued, nor taken into account.
>

By whom?

By the people who invited her?

By other participants in the event?

By other editors in the same wiki site?

By the readers?



> She does not want to be invited because she is a woman, nor because she is
> from a minority, nor ....... etc. This is offensive.
> She only wants to be invited because of the work she contributes on
> Wikipedia/etc.
>

This makes a lot of sense to me, but that's just me and attitudes are
different for each person.


> Besides the many good initiatives and intentions, this kind of approaches
> to our contributors is demotivating them, please be aware of this.


Again, it's probably demotivating to some. Maybe to 98%, maybe to 30%,
maybe to 5%. I honestly don't know.

I believe demotivation/frustration is the largest problem we face as
> movement.
>

I don't know if its the biggest problem. On this mailing list we are a
small group of meta-active Wikimedians, and we are the minority among
editors. We don't actually represent all the editors. And of course the
editors are a tiny minority compared to the readers.

I'd argue that the hard time that some editors are giving newcomers is a
bigger problem. Gender is certainly a part of that, and there are many
other parts.

We meta-wikimedians can find a better way to invite people to events, and
we can change ourselves. That doesn't sound too hard. Changing the wider
editor culture is harder.

I heard from people that the problem described is called tokenism
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokenism>.
>

Yes, that's when representation is given to a weakened group, but that
representation is too weak to be meaningful, and may do more harm than good.


> I believe the only way to close the gaps related to gender, minorities,
> etc, is to create an atmosphere in what everyone is appreciated for what
> she/he is doing, completely unrelated to the gender someone appears to
> have, the ethnicity, race, area of the world, etc etc etc etc.
>

So that's where it gets really complicated, because it's always related, in
ways that are sometimes visible and sometimes invisible.

Let's take school education as a hopefully easy example. People from
different areas of the world will have very different things to write about
it. In some areas of the world everybody gets school education—boys and
girls, rich and poor, rural and urban. In other areas it may be only boys;
or only people in cities; or only people who know a certain language; or
only people who belong to a certain religion; or only people who have a
certain amount of money; or only people who have a certain skin color. I
want articles about education to have contributions from as many people as
possible, from different genders, from different skin colors, and from
different areas, and so on.

An American white woman has different things to say about education from an
American black man. These differences are important and frequently
discussed in American media. But the American white woman and the American
black man *don't even imagine* what people from The Philippines have to say
about education. What people from the Philippines have to say about
education probably has little to do with the internal American debates on
this topic. And of course it breaks down further, because a person who
lives in the capital of Philippines and knows English has different things
to say about education from a person who lives in a village in Philippines
and doesn't know English.

On articles about education I want to hear from all of them. And about
every other topic. (And yes, I want contributions from people who don't
know English in the English Wikipedia. By definition they cannot contribute
directly, but we must do everything we can to make at least an indirect
contribution possible.)

How do we do it right?

How do we get more different people to even try to contribute to articles?
How do we get everybody's contributions to be accepted? (Guess whose
contributions are more likely to be challenged as "non-notable",
"unencyclopedic", or "unreferenced".)

I don't know. Am I even asking the right questions?

--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
‪“We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

Jane Darnell
In reply to this post by Amir E. Aharoni
Amir,
It's funny - after reading your mail I wondered if I had read Romaine's
mail correctly. Rereading both it seems that is exactly what you were
trying to say - we all carry our own little bundle of biases with us
whereever we go and whatever we read. When I read Romaine's mail I stopped
cold at "tokenism" - for me tokenism is when you count the paintings by
women in any museum and you find none of the women have more than one
painting in the collection, though they have lots and lots of male artists
with more than 20 works in the collection.

When it comes to Wiki meetups, everyone has their own reasons for wanting
to come or not. I have a feeling at edit-a-thons open to the general public
that it's a bit like being in a cage or aquarium where you yourself are the
attraction. Instead of meeting people who want to contribute I tend to get
questioned about my own motivations. I agree that as a member of this list
I am already a hard-core insider of this movement and can no longer think
about these things in a "normal" way (i.e. as a reader). What I do know
from talking to lots of family and friends is that most people have
absolutely no clue about our gaps in knowledge or have even heard of the
gendergap at all. When I say gendergap, they think gender pay gap and I
have to start explaining that no one is paid for their edits (which always
leads the conversation into a whole new tangent).

When it comes to the women, thankfully the word "nonbinary" is relatively
new and we can easily measure the binary gender with Wikidata queries to
see how we are doing. This is still sketchy and problematic, because lots
of historical women and men still do not have their gender assigned at all
on Wikidata - binary or not. We still can't measure gendergap per
occupation, language, or citizenship however, because those statements are
also still mostly lacking for most historical people. Citizenship is
actually quite comical when you start drilling into the data on Wikidata.
Some people want to be extremely specific about borders, which makes some
towns flip all around in terms of citizenship for people who don't have
precise birthdates - did I mention that women don't like to disclose their
birthdates? I would LOVE to be able to count brown and black women, but
this is of course completely off limits to us due to ethical concerns.

Here in the Netherlands we are going to hold a hackathon for women. I will
talk about Wikidata and hope to recruit a few women to help out with the
maintenance lists on women, such as this one:
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:WikiProject_Women/Wiki_monitor/lawiki

My hopes based on previous events, are not high.
Best,
Jane

On Mon, May 7, 2018 at 8:03 AM, Amir E. Aharoni <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> This is a sensitive topic, and I'm a white man myself, so please slap me if
> I say something dumb.
>
> 2018-05-07 7:10 GMT+03:00 Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]>:
>
> >
> > What has happened?
> >
> > She was invited to participate in a Wikimedia activity, because:
> > 1. she is a woman
> > 2. she is from a minority
> > 3. she is from an area in the world with much less editors (compared to
> > Europe/US)
> >
> > and perhaps also because her colour of her skin is a bit different then
> > mine (Caucasian).
> >
> > At the same time she has the impression that the work she does on the
> > Wikimedia wiki('s) is not valued, nor taken into account.
> >
>
> By whom?
>
> By the people who invited her?
>
> By other participants in the event?
>
> By other editors in the same wiki site?
>
> By the readers?
>
>
>
> > She does not want to be invited because she is a woman, nor because she
> is
> > from a minority, nor ....... etc. This is offensive.
> > She only wants to be invited because of the work she contributes on
> > Wikipedia/etc.
> >
>
> This makes a lot of sense to me, but that's just me and attitudes are
> different for each person.
>
>
> > Besides the many good initiatives and intentions, this kind of approaches
> > to our contributors is demotivating them, please be aware of this.
>
>
> Again, it's probably demotivating to some. Maybe to 98%, maybe to 30%,
> maybe to 5%. I honestly don't know.
>
> I believe demotivation/frustration is the largest problem we face as
> > movement.
> >
>
> I don't know if its the biggest problem. On this mailing list we are a
> small group of meta-active Wikimedians, and we are the minority among
> editors. We don't actually represent all the editors. And of course the
> editors are a tiny minority compared to the readers.
>
> I'd argue that the hard time that some editors are giving newcomers is a
> bigger problem. Gender is certainly a part of that, and there are many
> other parts.
>
> We meta-wikimedians can find a better way to invite people to events, and
> we can change ourselves. That doesn't sound too hard. Changing the wider
> editor culture is harder.
>
> I heard from people that the problem described is called tokenism
> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokenism>.
> >
>
> Yes, that's when representation is given to a weakened group, but that
> representation is too weak to be meaningful, and may do more harm than
> good.
>
>
> > I believe the only way to close the gaps related to gender, minorities,
> > etc, is to create an atmosphere in what everyone is appreciated for what
> > she/he is doing, completely unrelated to the gender someone appears to
> > have, the ethnicity, race, area of the world, etc etc etc etc.
> >
>
> So that's where it gets really complicated, because it's always related, in
> ways that are sometimes visible and sometimes invisible.
>
> Let's take school education as a hopefully easy example. People from
> different areas of the world will have very different things to write about
> it. In some areas of the world everybody gets school education—boys and
> girls, rich and poor, rural and urban. In other areas it may be only boys;
> or only people in cities; or only people who know a certain language; or
> only people who belong to a certain religion; or only people who have a
> certain amount of money; or only people who have a certain skin color. I
> want articles about education to have contributions from as many people as
> possible, from different genders, from different skin colors, and from
> different areas, and so on.
>
> An American white woman has different things to say about education from an
> American black man. These differences are important and frequently
> discussed in American media. But the American white woman and the American
> black man *don't even imagine* what people from The Philippines have to say
> about education. What people from the Philippines have to say about
> education probably has little to do with the internal American debates on
> this topic. And of course it breaks down further, because a person who
> lives in the capital of Philippines and knows English has different things
> to say about education from a person who lives in a village in Philippines
> and doesn't know English.
>
> On articles about education I want to hear from all of them. And about
> every other topic. (And yes, I want contributions from people who don't
> know English in the English Wikipedia. By definition they cannot contribute
> directly, but we must do everything we can to make at least an indirect
> contribution possible.)
>
> How do we do it right?
>
> How do we get more different people to even try to contribute to articles?
> How do we get everybody's contributions to be accepted? (Guess whose
> contributions are more likely to be challenged as "non-notable",
> "unencyclopedic", or "unreferenced".)
>
> I don't know. Am I even asking the right questions?
>
> --
> Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
> http://aharoni.wordpress.com
> ‪“We're living in pieces,
> I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

Fred Bauder-2
In reply to this post by Romaine Wiki-2
Women and other unrepresented people are invited to edit, to become skilled in editing (lots of practice and experience needed), and get well-deserved credit for excellence, but it is a process. Everyone stumbles at first, the point is not run anyone off or blame the difficulties associated with getting up to speed on gender or whatever.

Fred Bauder

----- Original Message -----
From: Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]>
To: Wikimedia <[hidden email]>
Cc: Wikimedia Gendergap mailing list <[hidden email]>
Sent: Mon, 07 May 2018 00:10:25 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

Hi all,

On Wikipedia and in our movement we are aware of the gendergap that exists
and all kinds of activities are organised to make the gap smaller. I think
this is great as no single gap should exist in collecting all the knowledge
in the world, as well as our movement should be diverse as the world's
population is diverse.

The statistics are clear on this matter, this is something to take care of.
However, a part of the approach is causing problems, because general
statistics should not be applied on individuals as that reduces humans to
numbers only.

The reason why I bring this up is because I recently received an e-mail
from a user in the Wikimedia movement who has (temporarily?) stopped
contributing as she is not happy with a specific aspect of the atmosphere
in Wikimedia.

She does not speak out at loud, but I think we must be aware as movement of
the silent cry, therefore this e-mail to bring awareness (but with respect
for the privacy of this individual).


What has happened?

She was invited to participate in a Wikimedia activity, because:
1. she is a woman
2. she is from a minority
3. she is from an area in the world with much less editors (compared to
Europe/US)

and perhaps also because her colour of her skin is a bit different then
mine (Caucasian).

At the same time she has the impression that the work she does on the
Wikimedia wiki('s) is not valued, nor taken into account.

She does not want to be invited because she is a woman, nor because she is
from a minority, nor ....... etc. This is offensive.
She only wants to be invited because of the work she contributes on
Wikipedia/etc.



Besides the many good initiatives and intentions, this kind of approaches
to our contributors is demotivating them, please be aware of this. I
believe demotivation/frustration is the largest problem we face as movement.


I heard from people that the problem described is called tokenism
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokenism>.


I believe the only way to close the gaps related to gender, minorities,
etc, is to create an atmosphere in what everyone is appreciated for what
she/he is doing, completely unrelated to the gender someone appears to
have, the ethnicity, race, area of the world, etc etc etc etc.

Thank you!

Romaine
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

Amir E. Aharoni
In reply to this post by Jane Darnell
2018-05-07 9:55 GMT+03:00 Jane Darnell <[hidden email]>:

> Amir,
> It's funny - after reading your mail I wondered if I had read Romaine's
> mail correctly.


You had probably read it correctly.

Generally, I'm wondering whether direct invitations to women or people of
color (or women of color, etc.) work as they should. Many people say that
they work. They may be right, at least in part. If I understand correctly,
Romaine says that he has doubts about it, and he's probably right, too, at
least for some people.

I'm just trying to say that diversity is important. How do we reach it? I
don't have very good answers. Probably not "one size fits all".

I mean, I want that woman about whom Romaine was speaking to contribute her
knowledge. I want everybody to contribute their knowledge. Unless I missed
it, Romaine didn't write what is her expertise, but just for the sake of
the example, let's make something up and say that it's Astronomy.

Do I want her to contribute her knowledge about Astronomy? Of course I do.
Should I tell her that I hope that she contributes her knowledge about
Astronomy? I probably should. (Do correct me if I'm wrong.)

Do I think that she has something to say about Astronomy that men don't?
Yes, it's quite possible. Should I tell her that? Hmm, I don't know. Maybe,
maybe not. I think that this is the question that Romaine is trying to
raise. And again, please correct me if I'm wrong.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

Fred Bauder-2
Women editors might have something to add about nursing and the history of nursing that adds gender-specific value, increasing our coverage of the subject. So a workshop at a nursing convention might be valuable.

Fred

----- Original Message -----
From: Amir E. Aharoni <[hidden email]>
To: Wikimedia Mailing List <[hidden email]>
Sent: Mon, 07 May 2018 04:52:31 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

2018-05-07 9:55 GMT+03:00 Jane Darnell <[hidden email]>:

> Amir,
> It's funny - after reading your mail I wondered if I had read Romaine's
> mail correctly.


You had probably read it correctly.

Generally, I'm wondering whether direct invitations to women or people of
color (or women of color, etc.) work as they should. Many people say that
they work. They may be right, at least in part. If I understand correctly,
Romaine says that he has doubts about it, and he's probably right, too, at
least for some people.

I'm just trying to say that diversity is important. How do we reach it? I
don't have very good answers. Probably not "one size fits all".

I mean, I want that woman about whom Romaine was speaking to contribute her
knowledge. I want everybody to contribute their knowledge. Unless I missed
it, Romaine didn't write what is her expertise, but just for the sake of
the example, let's make something up and say that it's Astronomy.

Do I want her to contribute her knowledge about Astronomy? Of course I do.
Should I tell her that I hope that she contributes her knowledge about
Astronomy? I probably should. (Do correct me if I'm wrong.)

Do I think that she has something to say about Astronomy that men don't?
Yes, it's quite possible. Should I tell her that? Hmm, I don't know. Maybe,
maybe not. I think that this is the question that Romaine is trying to
raise. And again, please correct me if I'm wrong.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

Fæ
On 7 May 2018 at 10:01, FRED BAUDER <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Women editors might have something to add about nursing and the history of nursing that adds gender-specific value, increasing our coverage of the subject. So a workshop at a nursing convention might be valuable.
>
> Fred
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Amir E. Aharoni <[hidden email]>
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Mon, 07 May 2018 04:52:31 -0400 (EDT)
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems
>
> 2018-05-07 9:55 GMT+03:00 Jane Darnell <[hidden email]>:
>
>> Amir,
>> It's funny - after reading your mail I wondered if I had read Romaine's
>> mail correctly.
>
>
> You had probably read it correctly.
>
> Generally, I'm wondering whether direct invitations to women or people of
> color (or women of color, etc.) work as they should. Many people say that
> they work. They may be right, at least in part. If I understand correctly,
> Romaine says that he has doubts about it, and he's probably right, too, at
> least for some people.
>
> I'm just trying to say that diversity is important. How do we reach it? I
> don't have very good answers. Probably not "one size fits all".
>
> I mean, I want that woman about whom Romaine was speaking to contribute her
> knowledge. I want everybody to contribute their knowledge. Unless I missed
> it, Romaine didn't write what is her expertise, but just for the sake of
> the example, let's make something up and say that it's Astronomy.
>
> Do I want her to contribute her knowledge about Astronomy? Of course I do.
> Should I tell her that I hope that she contributes her knowledge about
> Astronomy? I probably should. (Do correct me if I'm wrong.)
>
> Do I think that she has something to say about Astronomy that men don't?
> Yes, it's quite possible. Should I tell her that? Hmm, I don't know. Maybe,
> maybe not. I think that this is the question that Romaine is trying to
> raise. And again, please correct me if I'm wrong.
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>

Thanks for reminding everyone that we live in the 21st Century, where
there are plenty of women role models at the top of previously male
dominated professions, not just nursing.

The Wikipedia community has the most success at correcting gender bias
by encouraging interested volunteers of any gender to create articles
which help correct that bias, in all subjects.

Fae
--
[hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

Gnangarra
I think the problems not in trying to fix the imbalance in knowledge,
something for which history has big role in what and how information was
even still is recorded.  I think the presumption that when we ask women to
edit about women we predispose the assumption that women are only
interested in women and only women can or want to write about them.  We
have had a lot of concepts that have improved content about women and they
have focused on getting women to do the contributions.

sorry Fred to quote as an example

​ Women editors might have something to add about nursing and the history
> of nursing that adds gender-specific value, increasing our coverage of the
> subject. So a workshop at a nursing convention might be valuable. ​
>


What we need to do is shift our train of thought from women can contribute
to subjects about women to providing environments that let and encourage
women to contribute to topics that interest them​ not us.  The same applies
to other "minorities" where the subject being written is less important
than enabling participation. For that we need to consider in broader terms
what is notable, what defines notability, how do we draw in those
intangible knowledge sources to broaden the base for both contributors and
contributions.

We have the ridiculous case of Indigenous people in Australia being
considered as fauna until the 1960's, so that when an Indigenous person was
written about historically(even now its still applies) that in itself is
significant but we measure the notability of a person based not on the
uniqueness of such  but on whether there is sufficient volume of other
works about the person.  We have created an inherently bias system that
favours those of colonial heritage with colonial records over those who
dont have that historical privilege, we encourage this as Romaine put its
with a tokenism of participation and expectation of contributions
conforming to maintain that bias.  While we do that we dont actually value
the contributor or the contributions nor what else can be brought to the
community.


On 7 May 2018 at 17:31, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 7 May 2018 at 10:01, FRED BAUDER <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Women editors might have something to add about nursing and the history
> of nursing that adds gender-specific value, increasing our coverage of the
> subject. So a workshop at a nursing convention might be valuable.
> >
> > Fred
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Amir E. Aharoni <[hidden email]>
> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List <[hidden email]>
> > Sent: Mon, 07 May 2018 04:52:31 -0400 (EDT)
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems
> >
> > 2018-05-07 9:55 GMT+03:00 Jane Darnell <[hidden email]>:
> >
> >> Amir,
> >> It's funny - after reading your mail I wondered if I had read Romaine's
> >> mail correctly.
> >
> >
> > You had probably read it correctly.
> >
> > Generally, I'm wondering whether direct invitations to women or people of
> > color (or women of color, etc.) work as they should. Many people say that
> > they work. They may be right, at least in part. If I understand
> correctly,
> > Romaine says that he has doubts about it, and he's probably right, too,
> at
> > least for some people.
> >
> > I'm just trying to say that diversity is important. How do we reach it? I
> > don't have very good answers. Probably not "one size fits all".
> >
> > I mean, I want that woman about whom Romaine was speaking to contribute
> her
> > knowledge. I want everybody to contribute their knowledge. Unless I
> missed
> > it, Romaine didn't write what is her expertise, but just for the sake of
> > the example, let's make something up and say that it's Astronomy.
> >
> > Do I want her to contribute her knowledge about Astronomy? Of course I
> do.
> > Should I tell her that I hope that she contributes her knowledge about
> > Astronomy? I probably should. (Do correct me if I'm wrong.)
> >
> > Do I think that she has something to say about Astronomy that men don't?
> > Yes, it's quite possible. Should I tell her that? Hmm, I don't know.
> Maybe,
> > maybe not. I think that this is the question that Romaine is trying to
> > raise. And again, please correct me if I'm wrong.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
> Thanks for reminding everyone that we live in the 21st Century, where
> there are plenty of women role models at the top of previously male
> dominated professions, not just nursing.
>
> The Wikipedia community has the most success at correcting gender bias
> by encouraging interested volunteers of any gender to create articles
> which help correct that bias, in all subjects.
>
> Fae
> --
> [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>



--
GN.
Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page
WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
Out now: A.Gaynor, P. Newman and P. Jennings (eds.), *Never Again:
Reflections on Environmental Responsibility after Roe 8*, UWAP, 2017.  Order
here
<https://uwap.uwa.edu.au/products/never-again-reflections-on-environmental-responsibility-after-roe-8>
.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

Jane Darnell
Yes I totally agree with this. The problem is actually two-fold; we lack
the women contributors, and the current notability rules cause us to talk
in circles about how to protect new female contributors from being put off
by the systemic bias inherent in our internal processes. You don't have to
go back that far in time to find women listed as property and not people,
even in Western society. "Fauna" is a new one for me though! Writing as a
woman is of course different than writing about women. Everyone is welcome
to write about whatever they like. We miss the "female gaze" however - it
really doesn't matter what the women want to write about, as long as they
write. Massively as a large international group they choose to write
elsewhere and not on Wikipedia or any of the Wikimedia projects. The
question of why not may be simply technical or it could be the off-putting
challenge of learning to navigate our notability standards for things that
have historically only been academically documented by young white men.
Diving into things like the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica shows huge gaps in
knowledge as well as amazing detail for things that don't interest us so
much today, such as geological survey data. Back when people grew their own
vegetables or made their own asphalt that may have been very useful to
know, but increasingly the stuff we eat and build with comes from places
very far away from us. Sadly, the information we use to build articles
about local stuff also comes from farther and farther away.

I was originally coaxed into my first local WLM meetup by a direct
invitation on my user talk page. Whether this direct approach that has
proven so successful with WLM helps for the gendergap specifically is an
unknown, because our group of female contributors to invite is so
small.  The trick is to make the invitation as informal as possible and as
easy as possible to accept. I guess it is easier to think about the concept
of local heritage than it is to think about "female living", whatever that
may be. The point about diversity is you need to get people's attention so
they just add that extra little bit of focus when they are doing their
thing. In my case, I like to work on paintings and it takes me much more
time, sometimes years, to track down paintings by women, or portraits of
women, or paintings that have been in collections located in Africa and
other places not in the usual museum or art world circuit. I used to just
ignore the hard cases, but now I know I should pay extra attention and make
that extra bit of effort. In my small corner of the wikiverse I am slowly
tilting the scales from "paintings of women always show nudity" to
"paintings of women are mostly portraits". The point is to apply an extra
filter to the gaze we all have, to alert us to the female angle or the
non-Western angle.

The women who do contribute to our projects tend to have other interests
than just biographies or anything else gender-related. I think that's
normal.

On Mon, May 7, 2018 at 12:05 PM, Gnangarra <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I think the problems not in trying to fix the imbalance in knowledge,
> something for which history has big role in what and how information was
> even still is recorded.  I think the presumption that when we ask women to
> edit about women we predispose the assumption that women are only
> interested in women and only women can or want to write about them.  We
> have had a lot of concepts that have improved content about women and they
> have focused on getting women to do the contributions.
>
> sorry Fred to quote as an example
>
> ​ Women editors might have something to add about nursing and the history
> > of nursing that adds gender-specific value, increasing our coverage of
> the
> > subject. So a workshop at a nursing convention might be valuable. ​
> >
>
>
> What we need to do is shift our train of thought from women can contribute
> to subjects about women to providing environments that let and encourage
> women to contribute to topics that interest them​ not us.  The same applies
> to other "minorities" where the subject being written is less important
> than enabling participation. For that we need to consider in broader terms
> what is notable, what defines notability, how do we draw in those
> intangible knowledge sources to broaden the base for both contributors and
> contributions.
>
> We have the ridiculous case of Indigenous people in Australia being
> considered as fauna until the 1960's, so that when an Indigenous person was
> written about historically(even now its still applies) that in itself is
> significant but we measure the notability of a person based not on the
> uniqueness of such  but on whether there is sufficient volume of other
> works about the person.  We have created an inherently bias system that
> favours those of colonial heritage with colonial records over those who
> dont have that historical privilege, we encourage this as Romaine put its
> with a tokenism of participation and expectation of contributions
> conforming to maintain that bias.  While we do that we dont actually value
> the contributor or the contributions nor what else can be brought to the
> community.
>
>
> On 7 May 2018 at 17:31, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On 7 May 2018 at 10:01, FRED BAUDER <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > Women editors might have something to add about nursing and the history
> > of nursing that adds gender-specific value, increasing our coverage of
> the
> > subject. So a workshop at a nursing convention might be valuable.
> > >
> > > Fred
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Amir E. Aharoni <[hidden email]>
> > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List <[hidden email]>
> > > Sent: Mon, 07 May 2018 04:52:31 -0400 (EDT)
> > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems
> > >
> > > 2018-05-07 9:55 GMT+03:00 Jane Darnell <[hidden email]>:
> > >
> > >> Amir,
> > >> It's funny - after reading your mail I wondered if I had read
> Romaine's
> > >> mail correctly.
> > >
> > >
> > > You had probably read it correctly.
> > >
> > > Generally, I'm wondering whether direct invitations to women or people
> of
> > > color (or women of color, etc.) work as they should. Many people say
> that
> > > they work. They may be right, at least in part. If I understand
> > correctly,
> > > Romaine says that he has doubts about it, and he's probably right, too,
> > at
> > > least for some people.
> > >
> > > I'm just trying to say that diversity is important. How do we reach
> it? I
> > > don't have very good answers. Probably not "one size fits all".
> > >
> > > I mean, I want that woman about whom Romaine was speaking to contribute
> > her
> > > knowledge. I want everybody to contribute their knowledge. Unless I
> > missed
> > > it, Romaine didn't write what is her expertise, but just for the sake
> of
> > > the example, let's make something up and say that it's Astronomy.
> > >
> > > Do I want her to contribute her knowledge about Astronomy? Of course I
> > do.
> > > Should I tell her that I hope that she contributes her knowledge about
> > > Astronomy? I probably should. (Do correct me if I'm wrong.)
> > >
> > > Do I think that she has something to say about Astronomy that men
> don't?
> > > Yes, it's quite possible. Should I tell her that? Hmm, I don't know.
> > Maybe,
> > > maybe not. I think that this is the question that Romaine is trying to
> > > raise. And again, please correct me if I'm wrong.
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> > Thanks for reminding everyone that we live in the 21st Century, where
> > there are plenty of women role models at the top of previously male
> > dominated professions, not just nursing.
> >
> > The Wikipedia community has the most success at correcting gender bias
> > by encouraging interested volunteers of any gender to create articles
> > which help correct that bias, in all subjects.
> >
> > Fae
> > --
> > [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
>
>
>
> --
> GN.
> Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page
> WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
> Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
> Out now: A.Gaynor, P. Newman and P. Jennings (eds.), *Never Again:
> Reflections on Environmental Responsibility after Roe 8*, UWAP, 2017.
> Order
> here
> <https://uwap.uwa.edu.au/products/never-again-
> reflections-on-environmental-responsibility-after-roe-8>
> .
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

Andy Mabbett-2
In reply to this post by Romaine Wiki-2
On 7 May 2018 at 05:10, Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I recently received an e-mail
> from a user in the Wikimedia movement who has (temporarily?) stopped
> contributing as she is not happy with a specific aspect of the atmosphere
> in Wikimedia.

> She was invited to participate in a Wikimedia activity, because:
> 1. she is a woman
> 2. she is from a minority
> 3. she is from an area in the world with much less editors (compared to
> Europe/US)
>
> and perhaps also because her colour of her skin is a bit different then
> mine (Caucasian).

I'm sorry to hear that a contributor feels unable to continue because of this.

In order to examine what improvements we can make, can you tell us -
without breeching confidentiality - how this approach was made, and
what exactly was said?

--
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l
Hi,
I usually push diversity in any situation but only after I got a core quality group of volunteer. the first degree of diversity is the diversity based on wiki activity, IMHO.. I care about the rest and I try to be honest if I go in that direction and why I do that. If anyone is offended for something, that happens even if you do your best, in my experience being clear helps on the long term.
This a real documented example, if you want to read: http://www.wikisciencecompetition.org/people/ . For WSC2017 it was mostly my job to find these profiles, 90% of them. I did my best to find motivated jury members and, as a first step, I searched for expert wikimedians based on their CV on the profiles and their activities. My goal was to be balanced per topic, than per geographical area (language mostly, some description in English are poor), than maybe per gender, in that order. The evaluation of scientific images require expertise, that's the core business. I shared my experience here: http://www.wikisciencecompetition.org/2017/11/16/how-was-the-jury-for-wiki-science-competition-2017-formed/
In any case, I couldn't know who these people really were sometimes, I didn't care at the first step. You know where they work, but they could be foreigners. You know their enwikipedia activity (I need people with some decent English fluency, so I started there and in any case I found what I needed) but sometimes that does not reveal a lot, and English descriptions are gender-neutral. So even if it wasn't planned I got some unbalance, and I only discovered during the set up of the page that a certain nickname was a blond guy and not a Arab or Chinese girl. I did my best to "fix it" at that point but mostly because when you miss some positions and you look for additional 3-4 names it's no big difference to look here or there. But still, the first search was based on their expertise. And they all kew that. 

I think it was quite balanced in the end, taking care of the issue but not ranking it more critical than the scientific quality of the profiles. Plus. I told some of the female jurors that they could be "promoted" to the main jury for next edition but that's because they deserve it.
So, in the end  I look also for "girls" and "exotic profiles", I admit that, but this was not my main goal, and it was never more important that the quality. So at least these people knew that they were part of a team, that they were there to share their expertise, not being displayed as a "token".
I think it's more easy and relaxed if you always stick to the content and the quality as a first step, IMHO. if you want the movement to grow roots you need real people, motivated people, and real sharing. I really hope they will set up real national challenges next time, thanks to the expertise we shared.
Alessandro







    Il Lunedì 7 Maggio 2018 14:33, Andy Mabbett <[hidden email]> ha scritto:
 

 On 7 May 2018 at 05:10, Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I recently received an e-mail
> from a user in the Wikimedia movement who has (temporarily?) stopped
> contributing as she is not happy with a specific aspect of the atmosphere
> in Wikimedia.

> She was invited to participate in a Wikimedia activity, because:
> 1. she is a woman
> 2. she is from a minority
> 3. she is from an area in the world with much less editors (compared to
> Europe/US)
>
> and perhaps also because her colour of her skin is a bit different then
> mine (Caucasian).

I'm sorry to hear that a contributor feels unable to continue because of this.

In order to examine what improvements we can make, can you tell us -
without breeching confidentiality - how this approach was made, and
what exactly was said?

--
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

_______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

Robert Fernandez
The whole framing of this question is misguided.   There are lots of
people whose work is undervalued on Wikipedia for a lot of reasons.
If there is an effort to reach out to a particular group of volunteers
that is underrepresented then that should be celebrated as a positive
contribution to our projects and movement.   What we should not do is
say "how can I make this about my own personal situation?"   This is
about the movement and the mission, but too many volunteers think it
should be about catering to their own personal whims and needs.  If
there are legitimate grievances then we should address those problems
and not try to tear down efforts to address different problems.

On Mon, May 7, 2018 at 10:08 AM, Alessandro Marchetti via Wikimedia-l
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
> I usually push diversity in any situation but only after I got a core quality group of volunteer. the first degree of diversity is the diversity based on wiki activity, IMHO.. I care about the rest and I try to be honest if I go in that direction and why I do that. If anyone is offended for something, that happens even if you do your best, in my experience being clear helps on the long term.
> This a real documented example, if you want to read: http://www.wikisciencecompetition.org/people/ . For WSC2017 it was mostly my job to find these profiles, 90% of them. I did my best to find motivated jury members and, as a first step, I searched for expert wikimedians based on their CV on the profiles and their activities. My goal was to be balanced per topic, than per geographical area (language mostly, some description in English are poor), than maybe per gender, in that order. The evaluation of scientific images require expertise, that's the core business. I shared my experience here: http://www.wikisciencecompetition.org/2017/11/16/how-was-the-jury-for-wiki-science-competition-2017-formed/
> In any case, I couldn't know who these people really were sometimes, I didn't care at the first step. You know where they work, but they could be foreigners. You know their enwikipedia activity (I need people with some decent English fluency, so I started there and in any case I found what I needed) but sometimes that does not reveal a lot, and English descriptions are gender-neutral. So even if it wasn't planned I got some unbalance, and I only discovered during the set up of the page that a certain nickname was a blond guy and not a Arab or Chinese girl. I did my best to "fix it" at that point but mostly because when you miss some positions and you look for additional 3-4 names it's no big difference to look here or there. But still, the first search was based on their expertise. And they all kew that.
>
> I think it was quite balanced in the end, taking care of the issue but not ranking it more critical than the scientific quality of the profiles. Plus. I told some of the female jurors that they could be "promoted" to the main jury for next edition but that's because they deserve it.
> So, in the end  I look also for "girls" and "exotic profiles", I admit that, but this was not my main goal, and it was never more important that the quality. So at least these people knew that they were part of a team, that they were there to share their expertise, not being displayed as a "token".
> I think it's more easy and relaxed if you always stick to the content and the quality as a first step, IMHO. if you want the movement to grow roots you need real people, motivated people, and real sharing. I really hope they will set up real national challenges next time, thanks to the expertise we shared.
> Alessandro
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>     Il Lunedì 7 Maggio 2018 14:33, Andy Mabbett <[hidden email]> ha scritto:
>
>
>  On 7 May 2018 at 05:10, Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I recently received an e-mail
>> from a user in the Wikimedia movement who has (temporarily?) stopped
>> contributing as she is not happy with a specific aspect of the atmosphere
>> in Wikimedia.
>
>> She was invited to participate in a Wikimedia activity, because:
>> 1. she is a woman
>> 2. she is from a minority
>> 3. she is from an area in the world with much less editors (compared to
>> Europe/US)
>>
>> and perhaps also because her colour of her skin is a bit different then
>> mine (Caucasian).
>
> I'm sorry to hear that a contributor feels unable to continue because of this.
>
> In order to examine what improvements we can make, can you tell us -
> without breeching confidentiality - how this approach was made, and
> what exactly was said?
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
> @pigsonthewing
> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

Jane Darnell
In reply to this post by Fæ
Fae,
No, I have come to disagree that "The Wikipedia community has the most
success at correcting gender bias by encouraging interested volunteers of
any gender to create articles which help correct that bias, in all
subjects." This is simply because of our rules regarding references. Oddly,
Wikipedia can at best only echo the systemic bias, but will never be able
to correct it. To see what I mean, have a look at the percentage female per
occupation over at the dicare project. Traditional female professions such
as "nurse" or even "nun" have lower percentages female than traditional
male professions such as football players have percentages male. Wikipedia
currently amplifies systemic bias, and that is not Wikipedia's fault. If
you pick up any newspaper and count the gender per obituary you will never
approach 50% female (at least not in my lifetime). Of course if you mean by
"correct it" to increase efforts like "Women in Red" to inch our percentage
of 17% overal to 18% then yes, I do believe that is feasible.

Yesterday I attended a Pieter Pourbus painting exhibition in Gouda and the
booklet states in the opening paragraph "He married the daughter of the
famous painter Lancelot Blondeel". My companion drily remarked "Didn't she
have a name?". I think you will find that such sentences are all over
Wikipedia, in all sorts of biography leads. The women are mentioned
implicitly more often for their wombs than anything else. Almost like
fauna! Here in the Netherlands, the Dutch Wikipedia chased off an editor
who was trying to correct systemic bias in the country's archives
databases. She ended up publishing a book of female biographies called
"1001 Vrouwen" that resurrected the overlooked biographies of notable Dutch
women up to 1900. The next one for women of the 20th-century  is coming out
this year. Now we have references, so we have those 1001 women in Wikidata
and lots of new articles about Dutch women in various language Wikipedias.
To really help "correct" the gender bias, we need to do much more outreach,
because we will never get there with the academic aggregate databases
available to us today.
Jane

On Mon, May 7, 2018 at 11:31 AM, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 7 May 2018 at 10:01, FRED BAUDER <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Women editors might have something to add about nursing and the history
> of nursing that adds gender-specific value, increasing our coverage of the
> subject. So a workshop at a nursing convention might be valuable.
> >
> > Fred
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Amir E. Aharoni <[hidden email]>
> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List <[hidden email]>
> > Sent: Mon, 07 May 2018 04:52:31 -0400 (EDT)
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems
> >
> > 2018-05-07 9:55 GMT+03:00 Jane Darnell <[hidden email]>:
> >
> >> Amir,
> >> It's funny - after reading your mail I wondered if I had read Romaine's
> >> mail correctly.
> >
> >
> > You had probably read it correctly.
> >
> > Generally, I'm wondering whether direct invitations to women or people of
> > color (or women of color, etc.) work as they should. Many people say that
> > they work. They may be right, at least in part. If I understand
> correctly,
> > Romaine says that he has doubts about it, and he's probably right, too,
> at
> > least for some people.
> >
> > I'm just trying to say that diversity is important. How do we reach it? I
> > don't have very good answers. Probably not "one size fits all".
> >
> > I mean, I want that woman about whom Romaine was speaking to contribute
> her
> > knowledge. I want everybody to contribute their knowledge. Unless I
> missed
> > it, Romaine didn't write what is her expertise, but just for the sake of
> > the example, let's make something up and say that it's Astronomy.
> >
> > Do I want her to contribute her knowledge about Astronomy? Of course I
> do.
> > Should I tell her that I hope that she contributes her knowledge about
> > Astronomy? I probably should. (Do correct me if I'm wrong.)
> >
> > Do I think that she has something to say about Astronomy that men don't?
> > Yes, it's quite possible. Should I tell her that? Hmm, I don't know.
> Maybe,
> > maybe not. I think that this is the question that Romaine is trying to
> > raise. And again, please correct me if I'm wrong.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
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> > New messages to: [hidden email]
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> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> >
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> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
> Thanks for reminding everyone that we live in the 21st Century, where
> there are plenty of women role models at the top of previously male
> dominated professions, not just nursing.
>
> The Wikipedia community has the most success at correcting gender bias
> by encouraging interested volunteers of any gender to create articles
> which help correct that bias, in all subjects.
>
> Fae
> --
> [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

Fred Bauder-2

----- Original Message -----
From: Jane Darnell <[hidden email]>
To: Wikimedia Mailing List <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thu, 10 May 2018 04:02:46 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

...because of our rules regarding references. Oddly,
Wikipedia can at best only echo the systemic bias, but will never be able
to correct it."

Nothing odd, it's baked in: Wikipedia is a summary of the canon of knowledge, the corpus of generally accepted knowledge.

The knowledge industry could do better. And when it does, Wikipedia will reflect that. in the meantime it is helpful if gender and other bias issues are noted and accommodated. Our mission is more modest than full correction of all bias, but we can contribute or even lead.

Fred


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

Gerard Meijssen-3
Hoi,
"The summary of the canon of knowledge".. Wow.. I just tweeted that thanks
to the German Wikipedia we know about 20% more members of Parliament from
Chad. Now we know about 12. My #AfricaGap project will follow developments
around African national politicians. We suck when Africa is considered.
What we have in Wikidata reflects this.

It is relatively easy to add information in Wikidata about Africa.
Importing lists of politicians, I once did after South African national
elections and it shows, is easy. From our mouths we hear that we want to do
more about / for Africa but the proof is in what we see. What could be is
in our hands.
Thanks,
       GerardM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:GerardM/Africa

On 10 May 2018 at 11:53, FRED BAUDER <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jane Darnell <[hidden email]>
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Thu, 10 May 2018 04:02:46 -0400 (EDT)
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems
>
> ...because of our rules regarding references. Oddly,
> Wikipedia can at best only echo the systemic bias, but will never be able
> to correct it."
>
> Nothing odd, it's baked in: Wikipedia is a summary of the canon of
> knowledge, the corpus of generally accepted knowledge.
>
> The knowledge industry could do better. And when it does, Wikipedia will
> reflect that. in the meantime it is helpful if gender and other bias issues
> are noted and accommodated. Our mission is more modest than full correction
> of all bias, but we can contribute or even lead.
>
> Fred
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

Jean-Philippe Béland
In reply to this post by Fred Bauder-2
"Nothing odd, it's baked in: Wikipedia is a summary of the canon of
knowledge, the corpus of generally accepted knowledge."

But it is what we accept as part of the canon of "knowledge" as Wikipedia
that could be improved. We have a very western approach to that saying that
it needs to be published in such books or journals to be notable enough,
when different cultures use different ways to build their canon of
knowledge.

JP
User:Amqui


On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 5:53 AM FRED BAUDER <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jane Darnell <[hidden email]>
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Thu, 10 May 2018 04:02:46 -0400 (EDT)
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems
>
> ...because of our rules regarding references. Oddly,
> Wikipedia can at best only echo the systemic bias, but will never be able
> to correct it."
>
> Nothing odd, it's baked in: Wikipedia is a summary of the canon of
> knowledge, the corpus of generally accepted knowledge.
>
> The knowledge industry could do better. And when it does, Wikipedia will
> reflect that. in the meantime it is helpful if gender and other bias issues
> are noted and accommodated. Our mission is more modest than full correction
> of all bias, but we can contribute or even lead.
>
> Fred
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
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> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

Brad Jorsch (Anomie)
In reply to this post by Jane Darnell
On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 4:02 AM, Jane Darnell <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Traditional female professions such as "nurse" or even "nun" have lower
> percentages female than traditional male professions such as football
> players have percentages male.
>

Nun doesn't have 100% female? Hmm, yes, http://tinyurl.com/y9vx6ckl
currently shows 5 entries with that having gender "male". Although at a
quick glance three seem to have an incorrect occupation, perhaps picked up
from a family member mentioned in their Wikipedia article, and two seem to
have the wrong gender specified in Wikidata.

I don't know where
https://denelezh.dicare.org/gender-gap.php?kpi=humans&year=any&year_start=1800&year_end=2018&country=0&occupation=191808&project=0&threshold=10000&dump=2018-04-30&sort=total
finds the other 51 entries it classifies as "male", unless maybe they've
all been fixed since the last dump.


> Yesterday I attended a Pieter Pourbus painting exhibition in Gouda and the
> booklet states in the opening paragraph "He married the daughter of the
> famous painter Lancelot Blondeel". My companion drily remarked "Didn't she
> have a name?". I think you will find that such sentences are all over
> Wikipedia, in all sorts of biography leads.


On the other hand, enwiki's
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#Privacy_of_names
specifically suggests caution in naming family members of the article's
topic in favor of privacy.

[...] Consider whether the inclusion of names of living private individuals
who are not directly involved in an article's topic adds significant value.

The presumption in favor of privacy is strong in the case of family members
of articles' subjects and other loosely involved, otherwise low-profile
persons. The names of any immediate, former, or significant family members
or any significant relationship of the subject of a BLP may be part of an
article, if reliably sourced, subject to editorial discretion that such
information is relevant to a reader's complete understanding of the subject.
I don't know whether the wife/daughter in your specific example is/was a
"otherwise low-profile person", but it does apply "all over Wikipedia", at
least the English-language version. I also don't know whether other
languages have a similar rule.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

Peter Southwood
In reply to this post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Notability and verifiability are important. They allow us to produce reasonably reliable work. Moving away from those constraints opens the doors to extremely unreliable material. If Wikipedia is to remain open to anyone to edit, there do not appear to be any robust alternatives. Other projects may work around this problem, but would then probably not be open for anyone to edit. Or can you suggest another way?
Cheers,
Peter

-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Jean-Philippe Béland
Sent: 10 May 2018 15:01
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

"Nothing odd, it's baked in: Wikipedia is a summary of the canon of
knowledge, the corpus of generally accepted knowledge."

But it is what we accept as part of the canon of "knowledge" as Wikipedia
that could be improved. We have a very western approach to that saying that
it needs to be published in such books or journals to be notable enough,
when different cultures use different ways to build their canon of
knowledge.

JP
User:Amqui


On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 5:53 AM FRED BAUDER <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jane Darnell <[hidden email]>
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Thu, 10 May 2018 04:02:46 -0400 (EDT)
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems
>
> ...because of our rules regarding references. Oddly,
> Wikipedia can at best only echo the systemic bias, but will never be able
> to correct it."
>
> Nothing odd, it's baked in: Wikipedia is a summary of the canon of
> knowledge, the corpus of generally accepted knowledge.
>
> The knowledge industry could do better. And when it does, Wikipedia will
> reflect that. in the meantime it is helpful if gender and other bias issues
> are noted and accommodated. Our mission is more modest than full correction
> of all bias, but we can contribute or even lead.
>
> Fred
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

Eduardo Testart
Hi,

I posted this a while ago, an investigation on gender bias where a member
of Wikimedia Chile was involved, in his personal capacity though:
https://epjdatascience.springeropen.com/articles/10.1140/epjds/s13688-016-0066-4

There are many things that can be addressed individually and as a movement
or collective, if we believe the conclusions are valid, which I personally
do, since they are supported with data and not on our personal impressions.


Cheers!

El jue., may. 10, 2018 10:27, Peter Southwood <[hidden email]>
escribió:

> Notability and verifiability are important. They allow us to produce
> reasonably reliable work. Moving away from those constraints opens the
> doors to extremely unreliable material. If Wikipedia is to remain open to
> anyone to edit, there do not appear to be any robust alternatives. Other
> projects may work around this problem, but would then probably not be open
> for anyone to edit. Or can you suggest another way?
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of Jean-Philippe Béland
> Sent: 10 May 2018 15:01
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems
>
> "Nothing odd, it's baked in: Wikipedia is a summary of the canon of
> knowledge, the corpus of generally accepted knowledge."
>
> But it is what we accept as part of the canon of "knowledge" as Wikipedia
> that could be improved. We have a very western approach to that saying that
> it needs to be published in such books or journals to be notable enough,
> when different cultures use different ways to build their canon of
> knowledge.
>
> JP
> User:Amqui
>
>
> On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 5:53 AM FRED BAUDER <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Jane Darnell <[hidden email]>
> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List <[hidden email]>
> > Sent: Thu, 10 May 2018 04:02:46 -0400 (EDT)
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems
> >
> > ...because of our rules regarding references. Oddly,
> > Wikipedia can at best only echo the systemic bias, but will never be able
> > to correct it."
> >
> > Nothing odd, it's baked in: Wikipedia is a summary of the canon of
> > knowledge, the corpus of generally accepted knowledge.
> >
> > The knowledge industry could do better. And when it does, Wikipedia will
> > reflect that. in the meantime it is helpful if gender and other bias
> issues
> > are noted and accommodated. Our mission is more modest than full
> correction
> > of all bias, but we can contribute or even lead.
> >
> > Fred
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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