[Wikimedia-l] Greener travel and the ethics of carbon offset for Wikimedia community events

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[Wikimedia-l] Greener travel and the ethics of carbon offset for Wikimedia community events

Fæ
In the discussion about the report from the WMF relating to
sustainability, mention was made of the potential use of carbon
offset. As part of planning a conference for next year, we could ask
or require participants to factor in payments for carbon offset. With
no experience in examining carbon offset projects, we are cautious
about making any policy to do this, in particular it would be a bad
blunder if we start paying in to a carbon offset project that turns
out to be a bad or controversial choice later on.

Has the WMF or Affiliates made any prior choices for carbon offset
projects, or could the community work out which of the many projects
might be the most ethically responsible and well governed to choose
from?

An a bonus to tack on, we have used phrases like ''encouraging greener
travel options'', which one might interpret as doing things like
preferring train travel rather than using flights within the same
country. However if, say, a participant can fly within the country at
half the cost and get to an event in a couple of hours rather than
spending several times longer travelling, is it a reasonable/ethical
approach to just fly for convenience and buy some carbon offset
"points" (and so flying may well still be significantly cheaper than
going by train).

Thanks,
Fae
--
[hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Greener travel and the ethics of carbon offset for Wikimedia community events

Gerard Meijssen-3
Hoi,
When the WMF wants to "green" itself, the most effective way is to make its
software and operations greener. The software will reduce the need for
energy, the operations ensure that green energy is used. Reducing the need
for energy is an investment that will reduce the overall cost and has an
effect not only in the datacentres of the WMF but also in the transport of
data all over the world. It is only an investment in the time of engineers,
there are no other downsides.

In addition you may consider our travels because we want to be green. The
biggest problem is that as an organisation that NEEDS to bring our
community together, such an aim is like digging a hole we are bound to be
unable to climb out of.
Thanks,
       GerardM


On Fri, 11 Oct 2019 at 13:16, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:

> In the discussion about the report from the WMF relating to
> sustainability, mention was made of the potential use of carbon
> offset. As part of planning a conference for next year, we could ask
> or require participants to factor in payments for carbon offset. With
> no experience in examining carbon offset projects, we are cautious
> about making any policy to do this, in particular it would be a bad
> blunder if we start paying in to a carbon offset project that turns
> out to be a bad or controversial choice later on.
>
> Has the WMF or Affiliates made any prior choices for carbon offset
> projects, or could the community work out which of the many projects
> might be the most ethically responsible and well governed to choose
> from?
>
> An a bonus to tack on, we have used phrases like ''encouraging greener
> travel options'', which one might interpret as doing things like
> preferring train travel rather than using flights within the same
> country. However if, say, a participant can fly within the country at
> half the cost and get to an event in a couple of hours rather than
> spending several times longer travelling, is it a reasonable/ethical
> approach to just fly for convenience and buy some carbon offset
> "points" (and so flying may well still be significantly cheaper than
> going by train).
>
> Thanks,
> Fae
> --
> [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Greener travel and the ethics of carbon offset for Wikimedia community events

Fæ
To clarify, the topic was "planning a conference for next year, we
could ask or require participants to factor in payments for carbon
offset"

This has nothing to do with how green WMF operations might be. It has
to do with the greener choices /we/ as volunteers can make for /our/
conferences.

Thanks,
Fae

On Fri, 11 Oct 2019 at 14:33, Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Hoi,
> When the WMF wants to "green" itself, the most effective way is to make its
> software and operations greener. The software will reduce the need for
> energy, the operations ensure that green energy is used. Reducing the need
> for energy is an investment that will reduce the overall cost and has an
> effect not only in the datacentres of the WMF but also in the transport of
> data all over the world. It is only an investment in the time of engineers,
> there are no other downsides.
>
> In addition you may consider our travels because we want to be green. The
> biggest problem is that as an organisation that NEEDS to bring our
> community together, such an aim is like digging a hole we are bound to be
> unable to climb out of.
> Thanks,
>        GerardM
>
>
> On Fri, 11 Oct 2019 at 13:16, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > In the discussion about the report from the WMF relating to
> > sustainability, mention was made of the potential use of carbon
> > offset. As part of planning a conference for next year, we could ask
> > or require participants to factor in payments for carbon offset. With
> > no experience in examining carbon offset projects, we are cautious
> > about making any policy to do this, in particular it would be a bad
> > blunder if we start paying in to a carbon offset project that turns
> > out to be a bad or controversial choice later on.
> >
> > Has the WMF or Affiliates made any prior choices for carbon offset
> > projects, or could the community work out which of the many projects
> > might be the most ethically responsible and well governed to choose
> > from?
> >
> > An a bonus to tack on, we have used phrases like ''encouraging greener
> > travel options'', which one might interpret as doing things like
> > preferring train travel rather than using flights within the same
> > country. However if, say, a participant can fly within the country at
> > half the cost and get to an event in a couple of hours rather than
> > spending several times longer travelling, is it a reasonable/ethical
> > approach to just fly for convenience and buy some carbon offset
> > "points" (and so flying may well still be significantly cheaper than
> > going by train).
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Fae
> > --
> > [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Greener travel and the ethics of carbon offset for Wikimedia community events

Chris Keating-2
>
> This has nothing to do with how green WMF operations might be. It has
> to do with the greener choices /we/ as volunteers can make for /our/
> conferences.
>

Since a fortnight ago you were haranguing* the WMF for using too much air
travel and lacking "any actual measurable commitment to picking up a
telephone, holding a video conference, or holding a VR conference session",
it will be interesting to see what solutions you can come up with for this
conference you're organising. Did you consider the options other than an
in-person conference that you recommended the WMF adopt, out of interest?




*
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-09-30/News_from_the_WMF
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Greener travel and the ethics of carbon offset for Wikimedia community events

Fæ
Any general questions like catering for virtual attendees can be
raised at the talk page for the 2020 LGBT+ conference.[1] The
conference is at the proposal stage with funding yet to be agreed with
the WMF. The proposers will be happy to receive feedback and respond
to questions.

If no previous conference within our wider Wikimedia movement has used
carbon offset projects to benefit its green footprint, that's an
interesting fact to confirm as this may well be a great opportunity to
try this out.

Links
1. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:Conference/Kawayashu/Queering_Wikipedia

Thanks,
Fae

On Fri, 11 Oct 2019 at 20:47, Chris Keating <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> >
> > This has nothing to do with how green WMF operations might be. It has
> > to do with the greener choices /we/ as volunteers can make for /our/
> > conferences.
> >
>
> Since a fortnight ago you were haranguing* the WMF for using too much air
> travel and lacking "any actual measurable commitment to picking up a
> telephone, holding a video conference, or holding a VR conference session",
> it will be interesting to see what solutions you can come up with for this
> conference you're organising. Did you consider the options other than an
> in-person conference that you recommended the WMF adopt, out of interest?
>
>
>
>
> *
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-09-30/News_from_the_WMF
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>

--
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Greener travel and the ethics of carbon offset for Wikimedia community events

Bence Damokos
In case it is interesting, for the tenders at my workplace that require
offsetting, we include this requirement:

"
Carbon offsetting will be achieved by means of projects of the following
type: CDM (Clean Development Mechanism), JI (Joint Implementation) or VER
(Voluntary Emissions Reduction), all certified as 'Gold Standard' by bodies
accredited by the UNFCCC (United Nations Framework Convention on Climate
Change)."

In practice, https://offset.climateneutralnow.org/ is a place I've used
personally where one can easily find projects meeting the above criteria.

For more context, to save a bit of Google-ing:

CDM projects are those assessed and verified by the United Nations
Framework Convention on Climate Change (UNFCCC) in developing countries
which can sell certified emission reduction (CER) credits, each one
equivalent to one ton of CO2. These CERs can be traded and sold and are
currently used by industrialized countries to meet a part of their emission
reduction targets under the Kyoto Protocol(link is external)
<http://unfccc.int/kyoto_protocol/mechanisms/clean_development_mechanism/items/2718.php>
.

Gold Standard projects are CDM or voluntary offset projects giving an
additional guarantee concerning sustainable development benefits. These are
projects awarded the 'Gold Standard'(link is external)
<http://www.goldstandard.org/> quality label by a Swiss-based non-profit
foundation, supported by a group of 50 NGOs.[1]



[1] From
https://ec.europa.eu/europeaid/funding/faqs-toolkit-and-glossary/frequently-asked-questions-general_en

Best regards,
Bence

On Fri, 11 Oct 2019, 22:55 Fæ, <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Any general questions like catering for virtual attendees can be
> raised at the talk page for the 2020 LGBT+ conference.[1] The
> conference is at the proposal stage with funding yet to be agreed with
> the WMF. The proposers will be happy to receive feedback and respond
> to questions.
>
> If no previous conference within our wider Wikimedia movement has used
> carbon offset projects to benefit its green footprint, that's an
> interesting fact to confirm as this may well be a great opportunity to
> try this out.
>
> Links
> 1.
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:Conference/Kawayashu/Queering_Wikipedia
>
> Thanks,
> Fae
>
> On Fri, 11 Oct 2019 at 20:47, Chris Keating <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > This has nothing to do with how green WMF operations might be. It has
> > > to do with the greener choices /we/ as volunteers can make for /our/
> > > conferences.
> > >
> >
> > Since a fortnight ago you were haranguing* the WMF for using too much air
> > travel and lacking "any actual measurable commitment to picking up a
> > telephone, holding a video conference, or holding a VR conference
> session",
> > it will be interesting to see what solutions you can come up with for
> this
> > conference you're organising. Did you consider the options other than an
> > in-person conference that you recommended the WMF adopt, out of interest?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > *
> >
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-09-30/News_from_the_WMF
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
> --
> [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Greener travel and the ethics of carbon offset for Wikimedia community events

Mike Peel
I would suggest taking a different approach. Paying for carbon offsets does not further Wikimedia’s goals. It is, at best, a shortcut to brownie points as measured by other organisations. Requiring volunteers to pay extra for carbon offsets is doubly worse as they can’t then spend that money on their other Wikimedia activities.

Instead, perhaps we could invest in projects that will improve our coverage of climate change? Imagine the impact that improving our freely licensed information about climate change could make. Good/featured articles about the organisations that have been named here already? More referenced information in the articles on this topic? More images to illustrate those articles? If that doesn’t make a difference, then we have to answer a rather more fundamental question about our impact on the world.

Thanks,
Mike

> On 11 Oct 2019, at 22:27, Bence Damokos <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> In case it is interesting, for the tenders at my workplace that require
> offsetting, we include this requirement:
>
> "
> Carbon offsetting will be achieved by means of projects of the following
> type: CDM (Clean Development Mechanism), JI (Joint Implementation) or VER
> (Voluntary Emissions Reduction), all certified as 'Gold Standard' by bodies
> accredited by the UNFCCC (United Nations Framework Convention on Climate
> Change)."
>
> In practice, https://offset.climateneutralnow.org/ is a place I've used
> personally where one can easily find projects meeting the above criteria.
>
> For more context, to save a bit of Google-ing:
>
> CDM projects are those assessed and verified by the United Nations
> Framework Convention on Climate Change (UNFCCC) in developing countries
> which can sell certified emission reduction (CER) credits, each one
> equivalent to one ton of CO2. These CERs can be traded and sold and are
> currently used by industrialized countries to meet a part of their emission
> reduction targets under the Kyoto Protocol(link is external)
> <http://unfccc.int/kyoto_protocol/mechanisms/clean_development_mechanism/items/2718.php>
> .
>
> Gold Standard projects are CDM or voluntary offset projects giving an
> additional guarantee concerning sustainable development benefits. These are
> projects awarded the 'Gold Standard'(link is external)
> <http://www.goldstandard.org/> quality label by a Swiss-based non-profit
> foundation, supported by a group of 50 NGOs.[1]
>
>
>
> [1] From
> https://ec.europa.eu/europeaid/funding/faqs-toolkit-and-glossary/frequently-asked-questions-general_en
>
> Best regards,
> Bence
>
> On Fri, 11 Oct 2019, 22:55 Fæ, <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Any general questions like catering for virtual attendees can be
>> raised at the talk page for the 2020 LGBT+ conference.[1] The
>> conference is at the proposal stage with funding yet to be agreed with
>> the WMF. The proposers will be happy to receive feedback and respond
>> to questions.
>>
>> If no previous conference within our wider Wikimedia movement has used
>> carbon offset projects to benefit its green footprint, that's an
>> interesting fact to confirm as this may well be a great opportunity to
>> try this out.
>>
>> Links
>> 1.
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:Conference/Kawayashu/Queering_Wikipedia
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Fae
>>
>> On Fri, 11 Oct 2019 at 20:47, Chris Keating <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> This has nothing to do with how green WMF operations might be. It has
>>>> to do with the greener choices /we/ as volunteers can make for /our/
>>>> conferences.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Since a fortnight ago you were haranguing* the WMF for using too much air
>>> travel and lacking "any actual measurable commitment to picking up a
>>> telephone, holding a video conference, or holding a VR conference
>> session",
>>> it will be interesting to see what solutions you can come up with for
>> this
>>> conference you're organising. Did you consider the options other than an
>>> in-person conference that you recommended the WMF adopt, out of interest?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *
>>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-09-30/News_from_the_WMF
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>> New messages to: [hidden email]
>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>
>> --
>> [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> New messages to: [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Greener travel and the ethics of carbon offset for Wikimedia community events

Pete Forsyth-2
+1 to Mike's approach.

An *option* for carbon offsets seems worthwhile. A *requirement* seems
potentially at odds with our desire to be inclusive and accessible. And I
agree that something specifically tailored to a community built around
making information accessible would be a much better fit.

-Pete
--
[[User:Peteforsyth]]

On Fri, Oct 11, 2019 at 3:21 PM Mike Peel <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I would suggest taking a different approach. Paying for carbon offsets
> does not further Wikimedia’s goals. It is, at best, a shortcut to brownie
> points as measured by other organisations. Requiring volunteers to pay
> extra for carbon offsets is doubly worse as they can’t then spend that
> money on their other Wikimedia activities.
>
> Instead, perhaps we could invest in projects that will improve our
> coverage of climate change? Imagine the impact that improving our freely
> licensed information about climate change could make. Good/featured
> articles about the organisations that have been named here already? More
> referenced information in the articles on this topic? More images to
> illustrate those articles? If that doesn’t make a difference, then we have
> to answer a rather more fundamental question about our impact on the world.
>
> Thanks,
> Mike
>
> > On 11 Oct 2019, at 22:27, Bence Damokos <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > In case it is interesting, for the tenders at my workplace that require
> > offsetting, we include this requirement:
> >
> > "
> > Carbon offsetting will be achieved by means of projects of the following
> > type: CDM (Clean Development Mechanism), JI (Joint Implementation) or VER
> > (Voluntary Emissions Reduction), all certified as 'Gold Standard' by
> bodies
> > accredited by the UNFCCC (United Nations Framework Convention on Climate
> > Change)."
> >
> > In practice, https://offset.climateneutralnow.org/ is a place I've used
> > personally where one can easily find projects meeting the above criteria.
> >
> > For more context, to save a bit of Google-ing:
> >
> > CDM projects are those assessed and verified by the United Nations
> > Framework Convention on Climate Change (UNFCCC) in developing countries
> > which can sell certified emission reduction (CER) credits, each one
> > equivalent to one ton of CO2. These CERs can be traded and sold and are
> > currently used by industrialized countries to meet a part of their
> emission
> > reduction targets under the Kyoto Protocol(link is external)
> > <
> http://unfccc.int/kyoto_protocol/mechanisms/clean_development_mechanism/items/2718.php
> >
> > .
> >
> > Gold Standard projects are CDM or voluntary offset projects giving an
> > additional guarantee concerning sustainable development benefits. These
> are
> > projects awarded the 'Gold Standard'(link is external)
> > <http://www.goldstandard.org/> quality label by a Swiss-based non-profit
> > foundation, supported by a group of 50 NGOs.[1]
> >
> >
> >
> > [1] From
> >
> https://ec.europa.eu/europeaid/funding/faqs-toolkit-and-glossary/frequently-asked-questions-general_en
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Bence
> >
> > On Fri, 11 Oct 2019, 22:55 Fæ, <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> Any general questions like catering for virtual attendees can be
> >> raised at the talk page for the 2020 LGBT+ conference.[1] The
> >> conference is at the proposal stage with funding yet to be agreed with
> >> the WMF. The proposers will be happy to receive feedback and respond
> >> to questions.
> >>
> >> If no previous conference within our wider Wikimedia movement has used
> >> carbon offset projects to benefit its green footprint, that's an
> >> interesting fact to confirm as this may well be a great opportunity to
> >> try this out.
> >>
> >> Links
> >> 1.
> >>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:Conference/Kawayashu/Queering_Wikipedia
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Fae
> >>
> >> On Fri, 11 Oct 2019 at 20:47, Chris Keating <[hidden email]
> >
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> This has nothing to do with how green WMF operations might be. It has
> >>>> to do with the greener choices /we/ as volunteers can make for /our/
> >>>> conferences.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Since a fortnight ago you were haranguing* the WMF for using too much
> air
> >>> travel and lacking "any actual measurable commitment to picking up a
> >>> telephone, holding a video conference, or holding a VR conference
> >> session",
> >>> it will be interesting to see what solutions you can come up with for
> >> this
> >>> conference you're organising. Did you consider the options other than
> an
> >>> in-person conference that you recommended the WMF adopt, out of
> interest?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> *
> >>>
> >>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-09-30/News_from_the_WMF
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >>> New messages to: [hidden email]
> >>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> >> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >>
> >> --
> >> [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Greener travel and the ethics of carbon offset for Wikimedia community events

Bence Damokos
In reply to this post by Mike Peel
Even at the scale of the WMF, the costs of offset would not be high.
At the scale of individual travellers where a typical trip would cause less
than 1 tonne of emissions, and offsets available already at the 1$/tonne
price range and below - I would argue that if you or your organisation has
the resources to pay for your flight, you are likely to be able to afford
offsetting your emissions.

In any case, buying offsets or going climate neutral in other ways does not
preclude us contributing to knowledge about climate change - it is merely
one of the ways of being good global citizens (like paying taxes,
respecting copyrights, insisting on inclusive spaces).

Best regards,
Bence


On Sat, 12 Oct 2019, 00:21 Mike Peel, <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I would suggest taking a different approach. Paying for carbon offsets
> does not further Wikimedia’s goals. It is, at best, a shortcut to brownie
> points as measured by other organisations. Requiring volunteers to pay
> extra for carbon offsets is doubly worse as they can’t then spend that
> money on their other Wikimedia activities.
>
> Instead, perhaps we could invest in projects that will improve our
> coverage of climate change? Imagine the impact that improving our freely
> licensed information about climate change could make. Good/featured
> articles about the organisations that have been named here already? More
> referenced information in the articles on this topic? More images to
> illustrate those articles? If that doesn’t make a difference, then we have
> to answer a rather more fundamental question about our impact on the world.
>
> Thanks,
> Mike
>
> > On 11 Oct 2019, at 22:27, Bence Damokos <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > In case it is interesting, for the tenders at my workplace that require
> > offsetting, we include this requirement:
> >
> > "
> > Carbon offsetting will be achieved by means of projects of the following
> > type: CDM (Clean Development Mechanism), JI (Joint Implementation) or VER
> > (Voluntary Emissions Reduction), all certified as 'Gold Standard' by
> bodies
> > accredited by the UNFCCC (United Nations Framework Convention on Climate
> > Change)."
> >
> > In practice, https://offset.climateneutralnow.org/ is a place I've used
> > personally where one can easily find projects meeting the above criteria.
> >
> > For more context, to save a bit of Google-ing:
> >
> > CDM projects are those assessed and verified by the United Nations
> > Framework Convention on Climate Change (UNFCCC) in developing countries
> > which can sell certified emission reduction (CER) credits, each one
> > equivalent to one ton of CO2. These CERs can be traded and sold and are
> > currently used by industrialized countries to meet a part of their
> emission
> > reduction targets under the Kyoto Protocol(link is external)
> > <
> http://unfccc.int/kyoto_protocol/mechanisms/clean_development_mechanism/items/2718.php
> >
> > .
> >
> > Gold Standard projects are CDM or voluntary offset projects giving an
> > additional guarantee concerning sustainable development benefits. These
> are
> > projects awarded the 'Gold Standard'(link is external)
> > <http://www.goldstandard.org/> quality label by a Swiss-based non-profit
> > foundation, supported by a group of 50 NGOs.[1]
> >
> >
> >
> > [1] From
> >
> https://ec.europa.eu/europeaid/funding/faqs-toolkit-and-glossary/frequently-asked-questions-general_en
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Bence
> >
> > On Fri, 11 Oct 2019, 22:55 Fæ, <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> Any general questions like catering for virtual attendees can be
> >> raised at the talk page for the 2020 LGBT+ conference.[1] The
> >> conference is at the proposal stage with funding yet to be agreed with
> >> the WMF. The proposers will be happy to receive feedback and respond
> >> to questions.
> >>
> >> If no previous conference within our wider Wikimedia movement has used
> >> carbon offset projects to benefit its green footprint, that's an
> >> interesting fact to confirm as this may well be a great opportunity to
> >> try this out.
> >>
> >> Links
> >> 1.
> >>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:Conference/Kawayashu/Queering_Wikipedia
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Fae
> >>
> >> On Fri, 11 Oct 2019 at 20:47, Chris Keating <[hidden email]
> >
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> This has nothing to do with how green WMF operations might be. It has
> >>>> to do with the greener choices /we/ as volunteers can make for /our/
> >>>> conferences.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Since a fortnight ago you were haranguing* the WMF for using too much
> air
> >>> travel and lacking "any actual measurable commitment to picking up a
> >>> telephone, holding a video conference, or holding a VR conference
> >> session",
> >>> it will be interesting to see what solutions you can come up with for
> >> this
> >>> conference you're organising. Did you consider the options other than
> an
> >>> in-person conference that you recommended the WMF adopt, out of
> interest?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> *
> >>>
> >>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-09-30/News_from_the_WMF
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >>> New messages to: [hidden email]
> >>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> >> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >>
> >> --
> >> [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Greener travel and the ethics of carbon offset for Wikimedia community events

Henry Wood
In reply to this post by Mike Peel
Mike

> Paying for carbon offsets does not further Wikimedia’s goals.

Not directly, any more than paying for petrol or aviation fuel does.
If you regard it as part of the cost of travel, and that travel does
indeed further the Foundation's goals, then it seems reasonable to pay
for it.

Henry

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Greener travel and the ethics of carbon offset for Wikimedia community events

Andrea Zanni-2
I agree with Bence.
Right now, offsetting is cheap, likely 1-2 percentage points of the cost of
travel.
Those money could be asked directly in the grant to the WMF, for example,
because offsetting several tonnes in bulk is probably cheaper than doing it
person by person.

But carbon offsetting is just one strategy. Those money could be also
invested in charities that conserve rainforest (and thus native people, and
thus native culture > perfectly aligned with Wikimedia goals), or manage to
plant new trees and forests.

I know for sure that Wikimedia Deutschland has contacts with Ecosia¹, a
search engine that plant trees with revenue from web ads. There are surely
ways we could partner with them in reforestation projects, or other.  And
they surely know a lot more than us about carbon offsetting, so we could
just ask for suggestions.

¹ https://www.ecosia.org/


On Sat, Oct 12, 2019 at 10:00 AM Henry Wood <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Mike
>
> > Paying for carbon offsets does not further Wikimedia’s goals.
>
> Not directly, any more than paying for petrol or aviation fuel does.
> If you regard it as part of the cost of travel, and that travel does
> indeed further the Foundation's goals, then it seems reasonable to pay
> for it.
>
> Henry
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
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> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Greener travel and the ethics of carbon offset for Wikimedia community events

Osmar Valdebenito-3
Maybe it's cheap... for European participants in a conference.
People coming from developing nations tend to live further and require
longer trips to participate in events and conference, mostly hosted in
Europe or the US.
So, not only you are asking us to spend larger hours on flights but also
pay (or make someone else pay more) for it.
I calculated how much carbon offset costed for my Wikimania travel, using
the websites offered at the WM wiki, and it wasn't 1 or 2 usd. It was 107
euros, around 10% or more of the cost of the trip.
I'm all for making a greener Wikimedia movement, but we should do it not
affecting those that, supposedly, we want to include more in our movement.

El sáb., 12 de oct. de 2019 a la(s) 11:27, Andrea Zanni (
[hidden email]) escribió:

> I agree with Bence.
> Right now, offsetting is cheap, likely 1-2 percentage points of the cost of
> travel.
> Those money could be asked directly in the grant to the WMF, for example,
> because offsetting several tonnes in bulk is probably cheaper than doing it
> person by person.
>
> But carbon offsetting is just one strategy. Those money could be also
> invested in charities that conserve rainforest (and thus native people, and
> thus native culture > perfectly aligned with Wikimedia goals), or manage to
> plant new trees and forests.
>
> I know for sure that Wikimedia Deutschland has contacts with Ecosia¹, a
> search engine that plant trees with revenue from web ads. There are surely
> ways we could partner with them in reforestation projects, or other.  And
> they surely know a lot more than us about carbon offsetting, so we could
> just ask for suggestions.
>
> ¹ https://www.ecosia.org/
>
>
> On Sat, Oct 12, 2019 at 10:00 AM Henry Wood <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Mike
> >
> > > Paying for carbon offsets does not further Wikimedia’s goals.
> >
> > Not directly, any more than paying for petrol or aviation fuel does.
> > If you regard it as part of the cost of travel, and that travel does
> > indeed further the Foundation's goals, then it seems reasonable to pay
> > for it.
> >
> > Henry
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
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> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Greener travel and the ethics of carbon offset for Wikimedia community events

Bence Damokos
The price really depends on the project selected and can vary from less
than a dollar to close to $20 per tonne, and the cheaper projects do not
necessarily have less of an impact (more likely they have fewer levels of
independent verification).

Do note that apart from the company recommended on the Wikimania wiki,
there are other options out there. For example, on the UNFCCC portal you
will find many in even under the $1/tonne range:
https://offset.climateneutralnow.org/allprojects if you check the
individual projects, there is quite a lot of detail and documentation
included to be able to have confidence that the money goes to the correct
place.
The ones that come with further certification can cost more of course, with
the projects on the Gold Standard website being on the $10-15/tonne price
range (they have a "basket" of projects option at $11[1]), and Terrapass
chosen by the organisers of Wikmania also seem to be around the $9 mark
(they count in pounds for some reason on their website).

For personal offsetting I am quite happy to go by the UN site and I think
that is a good start to starting offsetting if one did not do it before. If
one has more resources or time, they can spend it on selecting projects
that meet their specific criteria (for example, social impacts beyond
climate impacts, projects in specific geographic regions, or an extra level
of certification) taking into account the extra cost.

Best regards,
Bence


[1] https://www.goldstandard.org/take-action/offset-your-emissions,
https://www.goldstandard.org/projects/climate-portfolio-variety-projects


On Mon, 14 Oct 2019 at 17:24, Osmar Valdebenito <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Maybe it's cheap... for European participants in a conference.
> People coming from developing nations tend to live further and require
> longer trips to participate in events and conference, mostly hosted in
> Europe or the US.
> So, not only you are asking us to spend larger hours on flights but also
> pay (or make someone else pay more) for it.
> I calculated how much carbon offset costed for my Wikimania travel, using
> the websites offered at the WM wiki, and it wasn't 1 or 2 usd. It was 107
> euros, around 10% or more of the cost of the trip.
> I'm all for making a greener Wikimedia movement, but we should do it not
> affecting those that, supposedly, we want to include more in our movement.
>
> El sáb., 12 de oct. de 2019 a la(s) 11:27, Andrea Zanni (
> [hidden email]) escribió:
>
> > I agree with Bence.
> > Right now, offsetting is cheap, likely 1-2 percentage points of the cost
> of
> > travel.
> > Those money could be asked directly in the grant to the WMF, for example,
> > because offsetting several tonnes in bulk is probably cheaper than doing
> it
> > person by person.
> >
> > But carbon offsetting is just one strategy. Those money could be also
> > invested in charities that conserve rainforest (and thus native people,
> and
> > thus native culture > perfectly aligned with Wikimedia goals), or manage
> to
> > plant new trees and forests.
> >
> > I know for sure that Wikimedia Deutschland has contacts with Ecosia¹, a
> > search engine that plant trees with revenue from web ads. There are
> surely
> > ways we could partner with them in reforestation projects, or other.  And
> > they surely know a lot more than us about carbon offsetting, so we could
> > just ask for suggestions.
> >
> > ¹ https://www.ecosia.org/
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Oct 12, 2019 at 10:00 AM Henry Wood <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > > Paying for carbon offsets does not further Wikimedia’s goals.
> > >
> > > Not directly, any more than paying for petrol or aviation fuel does.
> > > If you regard it as part of the cost of travel, and that travel does
> > > indeed further the Foundation's goals, then it seems reasonable to pay
> > > for it.
> > >
> > > Henry
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Greener travel and the ethics of carbon offset for Wikimedia community events

Fæ
Lots of good suggestions. Thanks for the feedback.

Calculating the amount of travel by flight and train for a conference
is not a lot of extra bureaucracy if the estimated distance made part
of documenting the grants and expense claims. Playing around with some
calculations of my own, it makes sense that rather than expecting
individual participants to add carbon offsetting to their personal
costs, we instead plan as a group to make a single donation to a
credible project. This might even be something that a large affiliate
like WMDE or the WMF might consider rolling up and managing.
Especially for shorter flights (like 500 km round trips), the
administrative cost as part of the donation works out as much as the
amount that would go to the end project, so a single large payment
would make far more sense than at the individual level.

Regardless of exactly how carbon offsetting might be arranged, it
would be great it the proposed LGBT+ conference in 2020  reports the
total travel figure, as part of the conference's aim to minimize our
carbon footprint. If a matching payment to a carbon offset project is
between 2% to 5% of the travel grants paid out, that seems entirely
manageable as part of being responsible global citizens (thanks for
that phrase!).

The separate issue of ensuring virtual engagement, such as catering
for remote presentations, is a critical way of both reducing carbon
footprint and allowing access for folks or organizations that have
difficulty travelling long distance, wish to minimize their personal
carbon footprint, or wish to participate but are unable to commit to
devoting several days full time. WM-LGBT+ has been successfully using
Zoom open source videoconferencing with participants in several
countries at the same time, and with the launch of Facebook Horizon in
2020, this particular conference might be a well timed opportunity to
set up a VR space to the benefit of the planned workshop discussions
in a far more engaging way than passive videocasting of presentations
allows. Who knows, maybe Facebook might loan us some headsets? ;-)

If folks want to continue to chip in with suggestions for the
conference, the WM-LGBT+ user group talk page on meta is worth
watching, and there are several other communication channels linked
there if you prefer direct messaging or tweets. See
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT+/Portal

Thanks,
Fae
--
[hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae

On Mon, 14 Oct 2019 at 16:53, Bence Damokos <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> The price really depends on the project selected and can vary from less
> than a dollar to close to $20 per tonne, and the cheaper projects do not
> necessarily have less of an impact (more likely they have fewer levels of
> independent verification).
>
> Do note that apart from the company recommended on the Wikimania wiki,
> there are other options out there. For example, on the UNFCCC portal you
> will find many in even under the $1/tonne range:
> https://offset.climateneutralnow.org/allprojects if you check the
> individual projects, there is quite a lot of detail and documentation
> included to be able to have confidence that the money goes to the correct
> place.
> The ones that come with further certification can cost more of course, with
> the projects on the Gold Standard website being on the $10-15/tonne price
> range (they have a "basket" of projects option at $11[1]), and Terrapass
> chosen by the organisers of Wikmania also seem to be around the $9 mark
> (they count in pounds for some reason on their website).
>
> For personal offsetting I am quite happy to go by the UN site and I think
> that is a good start to starting offsetting if one did not do it before. If
> one has more resources or time, they can spend it on selecting projects
> that meet their specific criteria (for example, social impacts beyond
> climate impacts, projects in specific geographic regions, or an extra level
> of certification) taking into account the extra cost.
>
> Best regards,
> Bence
>
>
> [1] https://www.goldstandard.org/take-action/offset-your-emissions,
> https://www.goldstandard.org/projects/climate-portfolio-variety-projects
>
>
> On Mon, 14 Oct 2019 at 17:24, Osmar Valdebenito <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Maybe it's cheap... for European participants in a conference.
> > People coming from developing nations tend to live further and require
> > longer trips to participate in events and conference, mostly hosted in
> > Europe or the US.
> > So, not only you are asking us to spend larger hours on flights but also
> > pay (or make someone else pay more) for it.
> > I calculated how much carbon offset costed for my Wikimania travel, using
> > the websites offered at the WM wiki, and it wasn't 1 or 2 usd. It was 107
> > euros, around 10% or more of the cost of the trip.
> > I'm all for making a greener Wikimedia movement, but we should do it not
> > affecting those that, supposedly, we want to include more in our movement.
> >
> > El sáb., 12 de oct. de 2019 a la(s) 11:27, Andrea Zanni (
> > [hidden email]) escribió:
> >
> > > I agree with Bence.
> > > Right now, offsetting is cheap, likely 1-2 percentage points of the cost
> > of
> > > travel.
> > > Those money could be asked directly in the grant to the WMF, for example,
> > > because offsetting several tonnes in bulk is probably cheaper than doing
> > it
> > > person by person.
> > >
> > > But carbon offsetting is just one strategy. Those money could be also
> > > invested in charities that conserve rainforest (and thus native people,
> > and
> > > thus native culture > perfectly aligned with Wikimedia goals), or manage
> > to
> > > plant new trees and forests.
> > >
> > > I know for sure that Wikimedia Deutschland has contacts with Ecosia¹, a
> > > search engine that plant trees with revenue from web ads. There are
> > surely
> > > ways we could partner with them in reforestation projects, or other.  And
> > > they surely know a lot more than us about carbon offsetting, so we could
> > > just ask for suggestions.
> > >
> > > ¹ https://www.ecosia.org/
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, Oct 12, 2019 at 10:00 AM Henry Wood <[hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Mike
> > > >
> > > > > Paying for carbon offsets does not further Wikimedia’s goals.
> > > >
> > > > Not directly, any more than paying for petrol or aviation fuel does.
> > > > If you regard it as part of the cost of travel, and that travel does
> > > > indeed further the Foundation's goals, then it seems reasonable to pay
> > > > for it.
> > > >
> > > > Henry
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > _______________________________________________
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