[Wikimedia-l] How diverse are your readers?

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] How diverse are your readers?

John Erling Blad
We should be using a grid for what people are reading about, instead
of using countries. That will give a better representation of large
countries vs small countries. It will also better reflect local ethnic
groups.

On Mon, Mar 11, 2019 at 1:53 PM Amir E. Aharoni
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> ‫בתאריך יום א׳, 10 במרץ 2019 ב-23:27 מאת ‪Gerard Meijssen‬‏ <‪
> [hidden email]‬‏>:‬
>
> > Hoi,
> > I have been thinking about it.. There is a place for research but really
> > why can we not have the data that allows us to seek out what people are
> > actually looking for and do not find.. Why can we not promote what proves
> > to be of interest [1] ?
> >
>
> Actually, there was some work done around it. Here are some examples:
>
> 1. The Discovery (Search) team in the Foundation researched searches in
> Wikimedia sites' search box that yielded zero results. This was done in
> 2016 or so, led by Dan Garry as the product manager, and this lead to some
> improvements in the functionality of Wikimedia sites' internal search
> engine, although I don't remember what they were exactly.
>
> 2. Google's Project Tiger provided lists of articles for which people often
> search in the Google search engine in India, and about which there are no
> articles in Wikipedias in languages of India. See
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Supporting_Indian_Language_Wikipedias_Program
>
> 3. Last year I made a list of articles that people search for in their
> language using the interlanguage links search box and cannot find. You can
> see a sample here:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Amire80/WEIRD/2018-04-09%E2%80%932018-04-15
> . I plan to make this list nicer-looking and auto-updating some time soon.
>
> 4. The GapFinder project is another tool that helps people find articles
> that are missing in some wikis: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/GapFinder
>
> 5. This is just an idea, but it's written down, which is a bit better than
> nothing: Show the most popular articles by country in the PageViews tool,
> rather than just by language. It's documented at
> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T207171 . The rationale for this is that
> the most popular English Wikipedia articles in the U.S., Nigeria, India,
> the Philippines, and South Africa are significantly different. The English
> Wikipedia is the most popular one in all these countries, but whereas it is
> sensible that it's popular in the U.S., it's a bit depressing that it's
> also the most popular in the other four countries, even though languages
> other than English are spoken there. The reason for this situation is, of
> course, that there is little content in the Wikipedias in the languages of
> these countries, and knowing what the most popular articles are can help
> people who write in these languages choose how to write that will be
> useful, and will hopefully raise the popularity of Wikipedias in these
> languages. The same is true for the most popular Russian Wikipedia articles
> in Kyrgyzstan and Moldova, the most popular French Wikipedia articles in
> Benin and Mali, etc. This is only an idea, but maybe it will be implemented
> some day.
>
> --
> Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
> http://aharoni.wordpress.com
> ‪“We're living in pieces,
> I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] How diverse are your readers?

Benjamin Ikuta
In reply to this post by Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l



I agree, we should not be deleting useful articles.

https://www.gwern.net/In-Defense-Of-Inclusionism




On Mar 11, 2019, at 4:52 AM, Alessandro Marchetti via Wikimedia-l <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I know people in many fields with great technical expertise. people who published articles on Science and Nature basically, and in the end I think they are probably qualified to have an idea of what a good encyclopedia should be. The point is that these people open wiki for topics far away from their area, most of the time they look also for "pop" topics. Finding pop culture is what makes them stay and grow interest as much as everything else. It's when they find a deleted ye useful page of something of interest for some internal reason they think wikipedia it's not worth spending time on.
>
> Based on that experience, in all the discussions when people who claim that this focus on such pop information lower our image or damage our workflow, I always question where these opinions come from and if they are peer-reviewed. I am a scientist, I look at data. it has been years people are claiming the "popmaggedon" of wikipedia is soon, and in the meantime its overall quality on very specific topic is still increasing.
>
> A balanced encyclopedia comes from trying to fill the gaps, all information are useful in that direction. As long as someone else is studying missing links, pages existing in other languages, encouraging what editors want and so on, your idea is just part of patchwork. I cannot peer-review such statement, but at least i can tell you it is said by someone who never edited a "pop" article in all his wikipedia life and manage projects of outreach in organic chemistry or biophysics, to name the last ones. So I hope that it gives a hint that is probably fine.
> Go on and explore.
>
>
>
>    Il lunedì 11 marzo 2019, 10:08:23 CET, Vi to <[hidden email]> ha scritto:  
>
> That's an unstable process on a long-term, with popular topics
> cannibalizing resources. Top read articles are already about two or three
> sports, some TV series and three or four music topics.
> These are also the most popular topics among editors but if you'll start
> focusing energies on these already popular topics you'll end up having no
> resources to be spent on "female combatants during Russian civil war",
> "near to extinction languages in Brazil", "computational chemestry in late
> XX century".
>
> The way we self-identify as a project  deeply affects our results:
> promoting the idea of Wikipedia as "the pop encyclopedia" (instead of "the
> free encyclopedia embedding pop topics") will weaken our commitment to
> diversity and quality.
>
> Also, topic popularity is mutable on a daily basis and it's driven by a
> very narrow number of media (basically Google/YouTube and Facebook) which
> will gain a complete influence over us.
>
> To me the mission of an encyclopedia is providing the *knowledge* (not
> *information*) which is worth collecting and preserving. The information
> people need/want is likely to be a subset of this.
>
> If Wikipedia is also an educational medium we should find a way to ask the
> ordes of people looking for new mr. Trump's bizarreness "hey, do you know
> the background of India-Pakistan conflicts?"
>
> Vito
>
> Il giorno lun 11 mar 2019 alle ore 06:19 David Goodman <[hidden email]>
> ha scritto:
>
>> The idea of an encyclopedia is to provide the information people need or
>> want  that's appropriate to the format. It would be useful to see what they
>> want that is appropriate but we do not have -- and also useful to see what
>> they look for that isn't appropriate for us. Within what's appropriate, I
>> see no reason why selection of topics should not be driven by reader
>> interests as much as by editor interests. Our purpose is not to practice
>> our writing skills for our own benefit.
>>
>> On Sun, Mar 10, 2019 at 6:58 PM Vi to <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> The idea of a popularity-driven encyclopaedia scares 😱
>>>
>>> Vito
>>>
>>> Il giorno dom 10 mar 2019 alle ore 22:26 Gerard Meijssen <
>>> [hidden email]> ha scritto:
>>>
>>>> Hoi,
>>>> I have been thinking about it.. There is a place for research but
>> really
>>>> why can we not have the data that allows us to seek out what people are
>>>> actually looking for and do not find.. Why can we not promote what
>> proves
>>>> to be of interest [1] ?
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>       GerardM
>>>>
>>>> [1]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>> https://ultimategerardm.blogspot.com/2019/03/a-marketing-approach-to-what-it-is-that.html
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, 6 Mar 2019 at 22:13, Leila Zia <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>> As I mentioned in an earlier thread [1], we will be running reader
>>>>> surveys across a number of Wikipedia languages to learn about the
>>>>> reader needs and motivations in these languages as well as some of
>>>>> their demographic information (and perhaps the correlations between
>>>>> demographics and user motivations and characteristics).
>>>>>
>>>>> If your language community is interested to have statistics on the
>>>>> distribution of reader gender, age, education, native language, and
>>>>> geographic region (rural/urban) in your language (and depending on
>> how
>>>>> much data we collect in your language, perhaps more insights), this
>> is
>>>>> your chance to indicate interest at:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research_talk:Characterizing_Wikipedia_Reader_Behaviour/Demographics_and_Wikipedia_use_cases#Interested_languages
>>>>>
>>>>> I initially communicated 2019-02-15 as the deadline to sign up. Since
>>>>> then, we have run a pilot test on enwiki and we are investigating
>> some
>>>>> of the results to see if any changes in the survey questions are
>>>>> needed. You have now time until 2019-03-15 to indicate interest.
>>>>>
>>>>> As always: this call is primarily a service to your language
>>>>> community. If you like it, take action on it. If you don't, no action
>>>>> is needed. :)
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>> Leila
>>>>>
>>>>> [1]
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2019-February/091762.html
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>>>> New messages to: [hidden email]
>>>>> Unsubscribe:
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>>> New messages to: [hidden email]
>>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>> New messages to: [hidden email]
>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> David Goodman
>>
>> DGG at the enWP
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:DGG
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:DGG
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> New messages to: [hidden email]
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>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] How diverse are your readers?

David Goodman-2
In reply to this post by John Erling Blad
"with popular topics cannibalizing resources."

What resources can be cannibalized?   The limiting resource in WP is
interested people writing, improving, and validating  articles.  People
choose their own topics.  This is different from an organization where
staff can be directed to work on what the management think is important.

I, for example, almost totally avoid most aspects of what is popular
culture--I am neither competent nor interested. ) The topics I work on are
those that interest me, mainly academic biographies. I'm sure most  people
do not think them important.  We're volunteers, and must tolerate each
others interests.

On Mon, Mar 11, 2019 at 5:06 PM John Erling Blad <[hidden email]> wrote:

> We should be using a grid for what people are reading about, instead
> of using countries. That will give a better representation of large
> countries vs small countries. It will also better reflect local ethnic
> groups.
>
> On Mon, Mar 11, 2019 at 1:53 PM Amir E. Aharoni
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > ‫בתאריך יום א׳, 10 במרץ 2019 ב-23:27 מאת ‪Gerard Meijssen‬‏ <‪
> > [hidden email]‬‏>:‬
> >
> > > Hoi,
> > > I have been thinking about it.. There is a place for research but
> really
> > > why can we not have the data that allows us to seek out what people are
> > > actually looking for and do not find.. Why can we not promote what
> proves
> > > to be of interest [1] ?
> > >
> >
> > Actually, there was some work done around it. Here are some examples:
> >
> > 1. The Discovery (Search) team in the Foundation researched searches in
> > Wikimedia sites' search box that yielded zero results. This was done in
> > 2016 or so, led by Dan Garry as the product manager, and this lead to
> some
> > improvements in the functionality of Wikimedia sites' internal search
> > engine, although I don't remember what they were exactly.
> >
> > 2. Google's Project Tiger provided lists of articles for which people
> often
> > search in the Google search engine in India, and about which there are no
> > articles in Wikipedias in languages of India. See
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Supporting_Indian_Language_Wikipedias_Program
> >
> > 3. Last year I made a list of articles that people search for in their
> > language using the interlanguage links search box and cannot find. You
> can
> > see a sample here:
> >
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Amire80/WEIRD/2018-04-09%E2%80%932018-04-15
> > . I plan to make this list nicer-looking and auto-updating some time
> soon.
> >
> > 4. The GapFinder project is another tool that helps people find articles
> > that are missing in some wikis: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/GapFinder
> >
> > 5. This is just an idea, but it's written down, which is a bit better
> than
> > nothing: Show the most popular articles by country in the PageViews tool,
> > rather than just by language. It's documented at
> > https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T207171 . The rationale for this is
> that
> > the most popular English Wikipedia articles in the U.S., Nigeria, India,
> > the Philippines, and South Africa are significantly different. The
> English
> > Wikipedia is the most popular one in all these countries, but whereas it
> is
> > sensible that it's popular in the U.S., it's a bit depressing that it's
> > also the most popular in the other four countries, even though languages
> > other than English are spoken there. The reason for this situation is, of
> > course, that there is little content in the Wikipedias in the languages
> of
> > these countries, and knowing what the most popular articles are can help
> > people who write in these languages choose how to write that will be
> > useful, and will hopefully raise the popularity of Wikipedias in these
> > languages. The same is true for the most popular Russian Wikipedia
> articles
> > in Kyrgyzstan and Moldova, the most popular French Wikipedia articles in
> > Benin and Mali, etc. This is only an idea, but maybe it will be
> implemented
> > some day.
> >
> > --
> > Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
> > http://aharoni.wordpress.com
> > ‪“We're living in pieces,
> > I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>



--
David Goodman

DGG at the enWP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:DGG
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:DGG
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] How diverse are your readers?

Peter Southwood
David,  
Would your work be influenced by an analysis of the academic biographies which are most searched for that are not on Wikipedia yet? (assuming that such an targeted analysis was available)
Cheers,
Peter

PS. An analysis that included a check of whether the topic was likely to be notable and a listing of possible sources would also save a lot of wasted effort. Also a check against articles that have been deleted for good reasons, and articles in other languages with a reasonable accessible reference list.



-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of David Goodman
Sent: 12 March 2019 07:15
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] How diverse are your readers?

"with popular topics cannibalizing resources."

What resources can be cannibalized?   The limiting resource in WP is
interested people writing, improving, and validating  articles.  People
choose their own topics.  This is different from an organization where
staff can be directed to work on what the management think is important.

I, for example, almost totally avoid most aspects of what is popular
culture--I am neither competent nor interested. ) The topics I work on are
those that interest me, mainly academic biographies. I'm sure most  people
do not think them important.  We're volunteers, and must tolerate each
others interests.

On Mon, Mar 11, 2019 at 5:06 PM John Erling Blad <[hidden email]> wrote:

> We should be using a grid for what people are reading about, instead
> of using countries. That will give a better representation of large
> countries vs small countries. It will also better reflect local ethnic
> groups.
>
> On Mon, Mar 11, 2019 at 1:53 PM Amir E. Aharoni
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > ‫בתאריך יום א׳, 10 במרץ 2019 ב-23:27 מאת ‪Gerard Meijssen‬‏ <‪
> > [hidden email]‬‏>:‬
> >
> > > Hoi,
> > > I have been thinking about it.. There is a place for research but
> really
> > > why can we not have the data that allows us to seek out what people are
> > > actually looking for and do not find.. Why can we not promote what
> proves
> > > to be of interest [1] ?
> > >
> >
> > Actually, there was some work done around it. Here are some examples:
> >
> > 1. The Discovery (Search) team in the Foundation researched searches in
> > Wikimedia sites' search box that yielded zero results. This was done in
> > 2016 or so, led by Dan Garry as the product manager, and this lead to
> some
> > improvements in the functionality of Wikimedia sites' internal search
> > engine, although I don't remember what they were exactly.
> >
> > 2. Google's Project Tiger provided lists of articles for which people
> often
> > search in the Google search engine in India, and about which there are no
> > articles in Wikipedias in languages of India. See
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Supporting_Indian_Language_Wikipedias_Program
> >
> > 3. Last year I made a list of articles that people search for in their
> > language using the interlanguage links search box and cannot find. You
> can
> > see a sample here:
> >
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Amire80/WEIRD/2018-04-09%E2%80%932018-04-15
> > . I plan to make this list nicer-looking and auto-updating some time
> soon.
> >
> > 4. The GapFinder project is another tool that helps people find articles
> > that are missing in some wikis: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/GapFinder
> >
> > 5. This is just an idea, but it's written down, which is a bit better
> than
> > nothing: Show the most popular articles by country in the PageViews tool,
> > rather than just by language. It's documented at
> > https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T207171 . The rationale for this is
> that
> > the most popular English Wikipedia articles in the U.S., Nigeria, India,
> > the Philippines, and South Africa are significantly different. The
> English
> > Wikipedia is the most popular one in all these countries, but whereas it
> is
> > sensible that it's popular in the U.S., it's a bit depressing that it's
> > also the most popular in the other four countries, even though languages
> > other than English are spoken there. The reason for this situation is, of
> > course, that there is little content in the Wikipedias in the languages
> of
> > these countries, and knowing what the most popular articles are can help
> > people who write in these languages choose how to write that will be
> > useful, and will hopefully raise the popularity of Wikipedias in these
> > languages. The same is true for the most popular Russian Wikipedia
> articles
> > in Kyrgyzstan and Moldova, the most popular French Wikipedia articles in
> > Benin and Mali, etc. This is only an idea, but maybe it will be
> implemented
> > some day.
> >
> > --
> > Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
> > http://aharoni.wordpress.com
> > ‪“We're living in pieces,
> > I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>



--
David Goodman

DGG at the enWP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:DGG
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:DGG
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] How diverse are your readers?

Vi to
In reply to this post by Gerard Meijssen-3
Il giorno mar 12 mar 2019 alle ore 06:16 David Goodman <[hidden email]>
ha scritto:

> "with popular topics cannibalizing resources."
>
> What resources can be cannibalized?   The limiting resource in WP is
> interested people writing, improving, and validating  articles.  People
> choose their own topics.  This is different from an organization where
> staff can be directed to work on what the management think is important.


I was exactly making reference to this.
Editors' interests are hard to change and, actually, it wouldn't be
auspicable to do it.

The only resources which can be moved are those related to outreaching,
editathons, various kinds of online and offline projects.

Keeping it short I disagree with choosing topics for editathons and similar
initiatives basing on topic popularity since this will be in contrast with
any commitment to diversity, even more it will push a wrong model of
encyclopedia.


When you state that Mr Trump does not know about Indian-Pakistan conflicts,
> does he know that a Nigerian governor outspends presidents of neighbouring
> countries.. There are elections for Nigerian governors...
>

I didn't wrote this actually, inaccurate quoting of others' opinions can
poison any discussion.
Trying to rephrase, I wrote it would be better to cover things which suits
more the mission of an encyclopedia and which get less attention by media,
as Indian-Paki conflicts background, rather than mr. Trump's covfefes.


>
> What is the propblem with providing what people are looking for?
>
> I often look for bus schedule 😉

Vito
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] How diverse are your readers?

Paulo Santos Perneta
In reply to this post by Gerard Meijssen-3
Hi,

I absolutely agree with the idea of finding some way to know what is more
popular / wanted by readers. And if we identify with it/want to invest some
time in it / whatever, then we can have a good criteria to follow about
what to create first, or invest more in.

I have created myself a number of high-demand pop articles with which I do
not identify at all, as k-pop start Suga -
https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suga and late rapper Lil Peep
https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lil_Peep , because I understood that a lot of
people was searching information about them, and it would be a win-win for
everyone if they would find reliable information in Wikipedia, and possibly
act as an anchor for those readers to better now and join our projects.

I have also done exactly the same with one of the most vandalized and used
in vandalism terms in Portuguese, an horrible swearing word, turning that
not only into an encyclopedic article, but into a featured article:
https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caralho . A lot of people was absolutely
shocked by the amount of time apparently "lost" into collecting such stuff
and building it into a proper article, but I see that as an investment:
Turning something apparently hideous into a magnet for History, Medieval
Literature and Folk Culture. The result is that, as you can see, the
article is not even protected. I believe that kids and vandals find it so
educative (that is: boring) they simply turn away. Or they keep reading,
and actually learn something useful. :)

Other experiments I've been doing is writing, following and developing
news-like articles about current events, with high popular demand ATM, such
as shipwrecks, earthquakes and fires, and monitor their visibility and the
way they drive new people into the projects.

Finally, I would like to point the interesting case of encyclopedic article
on Brazilian pastry papo-de-anjo -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papo-de-anjo , which was created by
encyclopedic academic "most highly cited computer scientist in Brazil"
Jorge Stolfi: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jorge_Stolfi

Why is Stolfi editing about cakes and Brazilian pastry instead of computer
science? Because he feels like it. Would you go to Solfi and say he should
be writing about computer science, instead of pastry, he would probably
leave and you end up with no computer science and no pastry. Why sometimes
I create pop articles instead of concentrating in more "encyclopedic"
stuff? Because this is supposed to be fun, and also a way to learn new
stuff. I do not identify at all with k-pop and rappers, but I found it
funny to write about them, and a way to learn about something that is
absolutely exotic to me. And still write a lot about Literature, History
and Science. But when people come to me saying that I'm loosing my time
writing about those pop subjects, and that I should write about this and
that, what I answer is: If you believe someone should write about that,
then YOU should write, not came asking others to do your stuff.

Please, bring on that popularity study, I'm certainly very interested in it.

Best,
Paulo - DarwIn
Wikimedia Portugal

Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]> escreveu no dia terça,
12/03/2019 à(s) 08:26:

> Hoi,
> The point is EXACTLY that this list will be different per language. What
> there is, what is needed differs as a consequence. What specific Wikipedias
> covers is as different.
>
> There are multiple objectives to be gained:
>
>    - as we gain more articles, we will gain a bigger presence for a
>    Wikipedia in Google
>    - a bigger presence will give us more eye balls.
>    - more people who edit a Wikipedia means that any and all subjects of
>    their choosing become better covered
>
> When we choose for an approach like this, it is very much in the true Wiki
> spirit. When the argument is about "supervision", the question is how that
> would work. In my opinion, you are likely not to know the other language
> and Google translate is unlikely to function for all the 280+ languages.
>
> The point of this approach is very much that there is no solution for all
> of Wikipedia.. It is weird to suggest that would work in the first place.
> Thanks,
>         GerardM
>
> On Mon, 11 Mar 2019 at 14:08, Alessandro Marchetti via Wikimedia-l <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Reminding is easy, it's analyzing that it's complex.
> >
> > I suspect that editors and readers are probably a little bit smarter than
> > generally assumed. It's quite "obvious" that editors understand what is
> an
> > encyclopedia, after years. When I make an informal survey, statistically
> > the "smarter" students in the class or in the group of people in front of
> > me at an event are those who already edited something or who want to know
> > more or are willing to compile a form to state their opinion or similar.
> >
> > Plus, every topic is multifaceted somehow, it's the same for the most
> > popular ones. It's strange when long-time editors seem to miss this
> aspect.
> > There is always a specific disease, an historical event, a place or a
> > person in a family history linked to a most searched topic. You can
> detect
> > many missing specific things just focusing on a core topic and starting
> > from there. Again, maybe it's worth reminding also how our editors are
> > quite good at doing this, and this type of information is therefore a
> > starting point. In some of this comments, it always look like an end per
> > se.
> >
> > Seriously, if someone is so superficial to just edit something with no
> > depth because it's on a list, (s)he will just do something equally
> > superficial somewhere else. Clinically, I might state that it's probably
> a
> > good thing if this occur in an area with huge focus, it actually lowers
> the
> > possible long-term disfunctionalities induced by a rigid approach,
> > something that it's more subtle to detect in less supervised areas.
> >
> > in any case, these lists can change a lot from area to area so it is not
> > even driven by the "mass", if you give a country in South America or Asia
> > the same focus on a western country you end up with very unusual
> guideline.
> > it's nice to know that you expertise in an area even if less taken into
> > account in the average community around you, it's useful in a different
> > part of the word.
> >
> >
> >
> >     Il lunedì 11 marzo 2019, 13:32:12 CET, Amir E. Aharoni <
> > [hidden email]> ha scritto:
> >
> >  ‬
> >
> > > The idea of a popularity-driven encyclopaedia scares 😱
> > >
> > >
> > I agree, although I'd make it a bit more focused: an encyclopedia that is
> > *only* popularity-driven is indeed scary. It's good to mention this, and
> > not once, but repeatedly.
> >
> > However, providing Wikipedia editors with information about what *is* in
> > demand is useful, as long as the editors clearly know that they have the
> > choice to write what is *important* and that "important" is not equal to
> > "popular".
> >
> > While I haven't ran a proper survey about this, conversations that with
> > Wikipedia editors from various "big" and "small" languages tell me that
> > most of them already understand it, and this is good. Nevertheless,
> > reminding people that Wikipedia is not supposed to be just about covering
> > popular topics won't hurt.
> >
> > --
> > Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
> > http://aharoni.wordpress.com
> > ‪“We're living in pieces,
> > I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] How diverse are your readers?

Paulo Santos Perneta
In reply to this post by Vi to
Hi Vito,

I believe it depends on the way it is done. An edithaton on rappers & pop
stars with high-school students could be a great way to get them into the
project in a fun way. Then as they keep developing and diversifying their
interests, as generally happens with growing kids, they have a never ending
source of inspiration at Wikipedia, even to use as a train ground for
school/university.

I would like to note that, contrary to what seems to be happening in other
projects, and possibly related with some kind of Internet boom in Brazil,
Angola and other Portuguese-speaking countries, the Wikipedia in Portuguese
shows (at least empirically) a very high proportion of kids, mostly teens,
but some as young as 10 or 11, mostly editing in animation series &
computer games initially, and then progressing into other fields as they
grow. I've been watching this for 10 years already. A significant number of
those little kids that were there in 2009 are now sysops and regular
editors on Wikipedia, and part of the regular community. In a number of
cases I know Wikipedia was decisive to develop their skills at school,
sometimes even in their lives in general. It is a good thing. And it all
started with pokemons, Naruto, Saint Seiya and all the stuff that is often
derided as mostly useless in an encyclopedia, but that worked as a learning
school for that young generation, helping them learning how to edit
Wikipedia in a fun way.

I would not go as far as saying we should be doing edithatons about Naruto
and Pokemons, but I do believe we should be helping those kids editing
those articles, instead of chasing them away as "useless newbies only
interested in pop stuff" as often happens. They are the future generations
of Wikipedians.

Best,
Paulo - DarwIn
Wikimedia Portugal


Vi to <[hidden email]> escreveu no dia terça, 12/03/2019 à(s) 10:22:

> Il giorno mar 12 mar 2019 alle ore 06:16 David Goodman <[hidden email]>
> ha scritto:
>
> > "with popular topics cannibalizing resources."
> >
> > What resources can be cannibalized?   The limiting resource in WP is
> > interested people writing, improving, and validating  articles.  People
> > choose their own topics.  This is different from an organization where
> > staff can be directed to work on what the management think is important.
>
>
> I was exactly making reference to this.
> Editors' interests are hard to change and, actually, it wouldn't be
> auspicable to do it.
>
> The only resources which can be moved are those related to outreaching,
> editathons, various kinds of online and offline projects.
>
> Keeping it short I disagree with choosing topics for editathons and similar
> initiatives basing on topic popularity since this will be in contrast with
> any commitment to diversity, even more it will push a wrong model of
> encyclopedia.
>
>
> When you state that Mr Trump does not know about Indian-Pakistan conflicts,
> > does he know that a Nigerian governor outspends presidents of
> neighbouring
> > countries.. There are elections for Nigerian governors...
> >
>
> I didn't wrote this actually, inaccurate quoting of others' opinions can
> poison any discussion.
> Trying to rephrase, I wrote it would be better to cover things which suits
> more the mission of an encyclopedia and which get less attention by media,
> as Indian-Paki conflicts background, rather than mr. Trump's covfefes.
>
>
> >
> > What is the propblem with providing what people are looking for?
> >
> > I often look for bus schedule 😉
>
> Vito
> _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] How diverse are your readers?

Benjamin Ikuta



I, for one, would indeed go so far as to say we should be doing editatons about Naruto and Pokemon.



On Mar 12, 2019, at 10:10 AM, Paulo Santos Perneta <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I would not go as far as saying we should be doing edithatons about Naruto
> and Pokemons,

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] How diverse are your readers?

Leila Zia
In reply to this post by Ilario Valdelli
Ciao Ilario,

On Mon, Mar 11, 2019 at 12:16 PM Ilario valdelli <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Any study is interesting, but if it could be country-based, it would be
> better.

We agree with you that the country component is quite important. There
is some ongoing engineering work to make the feature available in
QuickSurvey [1] which is the extension we use. If it gets ready, we
will include at least some sampling by country.

Let me give you a couple of reasons why from our perspective sampling
by country is key:
* Understanding readers from countries such as Nigeria is hard through
English Wikipedia as the traffic in enwiki is dominated by other
countries. In order to get enough responses from Nigeria, we have to
ask many more questions from the rest of the world which is not
something we want to do.
* Many chapters are organized by geographical regions and learning
about the readers in their geography can empower them in new ways.
* If we have enough responses from different countries, we can have
more accurate debiasing steps. For example, if we have enough data
from country x, we can look at the age distribution of respondents and
see if that age distribution matches the age distribution from that
country based on external databases available. If not, we can try to
correct for the differences, or at least be aware of the caveats.

Best,
Leila
[1] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:QuickSurveys

> Kind regards
>
>
> On 06/03/2019 22:12, Leila Zia wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > As I mentioned in an earlier thread [1], we will be running reader
> > surveys across a number of Wikipedia languages to learn about the
> > reader needs and motivations in these languages as well as some of
> > their demographic information (and perhaps the correlations between
> > demographics and user motivations and characteristics).
> >
> > If your language community is interested to have statistics on the
> > distribution of reader gender, age, education, native language, and
> > geographic region (rural/urban) in your language (and depending on how
> > much data we collect in your language, perhaps more insights), this is
> > your chance to indicate interest at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research_talk:Characterizing_Wikipedia_Reader_Behaviour/Demographics_and_Wikipedia_use_cases#Interested_languages
> >
> > I initially communicated 2019-02-15 as the deadline to sign up. Since
> > then, we have run a pilot test on enwiki and we are investigating some
> > of the results to see if any changes in the survey questions are
> > needed. You have now time until 2019-03-15 to indicate interest.
> >
> > As always: this call is primarily a service to your language
> > community. If you like it, take action on it. If you don't, no action
> > is needed. :)
> >
> > Best,
> > Leila
> >
> > [1] https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2019-February/091762.html
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] How diverse are your readers?

Leila Zia
In reply to this post by Gerard Meijssen-3
Hi Gerard,

On Sun, Mar 10, 2019 at 2:26 PM Gerard Meijssen
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> but really
> why can we not have the data that allows us to seek out what people are
> actually looking for and do not find..

Please open a Phabricator task for this request at
https://phabricator.wikimedia.org . Please add Research as a tag and
add me as one of the subscribers. I'd like to work with you on a
concrete proposal. A few items to consider as you're expanding the
description of the task:

* We won't be able to release raw search queries as they come to
Wikimedia servers. That is for privacy reasons.

* You also likely don't need raw search queries. If you can be
specific about what you want to have access to, as much as possible,
that can help us get started with scoping the problem. I'm looking for
something along these lines: "I want to be able to see a monthly list
of top n search terms in language x that result in 0 search results or
results where the user does not click on any of the search results
offered." The more specific, the better. If you are in doubt, put some
description and we can iterate on it.

Best,
Leila
p.s. The goal of this exercise is to have an open question ready (with
all the details one needs to know) for the next time we will have a
volunteer researcher to work with us.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] How diverse are your readers?

Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l
In reply to this post by Benjamin Ikuta
 We certainly could do editatons about Naruto and Pokemon and it would actually be quite useful. As Paulo said, a well written "pop" page has a good influence. People can understand easily how a complex and multifaceted article with appropriate navboxes, infoboxed, is structured for a trivial topic, and think how they can help for other topics.
I repeat the concept: I have friends who work at the top of their fields, some of them have also their own wikipedia article (I am not telling which one because of respect of their privacy) and they leave edits on complex topic sometimes but it's their everyday job so they are bored to do even on wiki in their free time. Still, they do a little bit and they learned how to do it visiting other pages about the most trivial topics you can imagine. They showed me their first edits as IPs sometimes and they are as diverse as you can imagine. Obscure dialects, silly TV series, things like that.

Also, since we are talking about Pokemon....I can show something directly like Paulo did.This is the history of the article Cronologia delle modifiche di "Ulva lactuca" - Wikipedia Ulva Lactuca. HisuiSama and Adriana Hariuc who added more text on January the 20th are the same students who are comparing the very same morning a plant at the botanical garden to a Pokemon in this gallery: https://twitter.com/Alexmar983/status/1087119134058516480
So, Go Pokemon... I know about the "pokemon test" but in the end I actually wish we had more Pokemon pages, it would probably be fine.
Alex


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Cronologia delle modifiche di "Ulva lactuca" - Wikipedia


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    Il giovedì 14 marzo 2019, 00:14:57 CET, Benjamin Ikuta <[hidden email]> ha scritto:  
 
 


I, for one, would indeed go so far as to say we should be doing editatons about Naruto and Pokemon.



On Mar 12, 2019, at 10:10 AM, Paulo Santos Perneta <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I would not go as far as saying we should be doing edithatons about Naruto
> and Pokemons,

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] How diverse are your readers?

Benjamin Ikuta




I also don't see why it would be such a problem to have more articles about Pokemon.

Volunteer effort is certainly not zero sum.

Contributing to one area doesn't necessarily mean contributing less to another.

Speaking from personal experience now, one of my earliest Wikipedia edits was about Pokemon.

It was reverted.

Luckily, I was not discouraged, but I know that many people would be, and that is a real problem.

I think there's a bias on Wikipedia when weighing the pros and cons of policy, because it's easy to overlook the absence of something that never was there to begin with.




On Mar 13, 2019, at 5:01 PM, Alessandro Marchetti via Wikimedia-l <[hidden email]> wrote:

> We certainly could do editatons about Naruto and Pokemon and it would actually be quite useful. As Paulo said, a well written "pop" page has a good influence. People can understand easily how a complex and multifaceted article with appropriate navboxes, infoboxed, is structured for a trivial topic, and think how they can help for other topics.
> I repeat the concept: I have friends who work at the top of their fields, some of them have also their own wikipedia article (I am not telling which one because of respect of their privacy) and they leave edits on complex topic sometimes but it's their everyday job so they are bored to do even on wiki in their free time. Still, they do a little bit and they learned how to do it visiting other pages about the most trivial topics you can imagine. They showed me their first edits as IPs sometimes and they are as diverse as you can imagine. Obscure dialects, silly TV series, things like that.
>
> Also, since we are talking about Pokemon....I can show something directly like Paulo did.This is the history of the article Cronologia delle modifiche di "Ulva lactuca" - Wikipedia Ulva Lactuca. HisuiSama and Adriana Hariuc who added more text on January the 20th are the same students who are comparing the very same morning a plant at the botanical garden to a Pokemon in this gallery: https://twitter.com/Alexmar983/status/1087119134058516480
> So, Go Pokemon... I know about the "pokemon test" but in the end I actually wish we had more Pokemon pages, it would probably be fine.
> Alex
>
>
> |
> |
> |
> |  |  |
>
> |
>
> |
> |
> |  |
> Cronologia delle modifiche di "Ulva lactuca" - Wikipedia
>
>
> |
>
> |
>
> |
>
>
>
>
>    Il giovedì 14 marzo 2019, 00:14:57 CET, Benjamin Ikuta <[hidden email]> ha scritto:  
>
>
>
>
> I, for one, would indeed go so far as to say we should be doing editatons about Naruto and Pokemon.
>
>
>
> On Mar 12, 2019, at 10:10 AM, Paulo Santos Perneta <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I would not go as far as saying we should be doing edithatons about Naruto
>> and Pokemons,
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] How diverse are your readers?

Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l
 I think, Benjamin, that sometimes some users don't get the experience of other people. I met so many smart men and women with very trivial hobbies that the idea of such separation sounds simply wrong or odd.  I have never edited on "pop" topic on purpose, I have no interest for cartoons or TV series, mostly "serious" stuff, still I don't see the issue here.

Maybe on some local communities this will remain accepted as general truth, that "opposing" focus or research on "pop" topics is good for the image or the balance of energies of the Wikimedia projects but when you move on the global scale I don't think it holds very well.

It sounds simple to say so, but based on my experience I don't think it's actually correct. Again, I am willing to read any peer-reviewed publication where something related to the opposite is stated, but so far if these are just opinions, than I stick to my perception, and I remain generally favorable toward this sort of interest.
   Il giovedì 14 marzo 2019, 01:08:57 CET, Benjamin Ikuta <[hidden email]> ha scritto:  
 
 



I also don't see why it would be such a problem to have more articles about Pokemon.

Volunteer effort is certainly not zero sum.

Contributing to one area doesn't necessarily mean contributing less to another.

Speaking from personal experience now, one of my earliest Wikipedia edits was about Pokemon.

It was reverted.

Luckily, I was not discouraged, but I know that many people would be, and that is a real problem.

I think there's a bias on Wikipedia when weighing the pros and cons of policy, because it's easy to overlook the absence of something that never was there to begin with.




On Mar 13, 2019, at 5:01 PM, Alessandro Marchetti via Wikimedia-l <[hidden email]> wrote:

> We certainly could do editatons about Naruto and Pokemon and it would actually be quite useful. As Paulo said, a well written "pop" page has a good influence. People can understand easily how a complex and multifaceted article with appropriate navboxes, infoboxed, is structured for a trivial topic, and think how they can help for other topics.
> I repeat the concept: I have friends who work at the top of their fields, some of them have also their own wikipedia article (I am not telling which one because of respect of their privacy) and they leave edits on complex topic sometimes but it's their everyday job so they are bored to do even on wiki in their free time. Still, they do a little bit and they learned how to do it visiting other pages about the most trivial topics you can imagine. They showed me their first edits as IPs sometimes and they are as diverse as you can imagine. Obscure dialects, silly TV series, things like that.
>
> Also, since we are talking about Pokemon....I can show something directly like Paulo did.This is the history of the article Cronologia delle modifiche di "Ulva lactuca" - Wikipedia Ulva Lactuca. HisuiSama and Adriana Hariuc who added more text on January the 20th are the same students who are comparing the very same morning a plant at the botanical garden to a Pokemon in this gallery: https://twitter.com/Alexmar983/status/1087119134058516480
> So, Go Pokemon... I know about the "pokemon test" but in the end I actually wish we had more Pokemon pages, it would probably be fine.
> Alex
>
>
> |
> |
> |
> |  |  |
>
> |
>
> |
> |
> |  |
> Cronologia delle modifiche di "Ulva lactuca" - Wikipedia
>
>
> |
>
> |
>
> |
>
>
>
>
>    Il giovedì 14 marzo 2019, 00:14:57 CET, Benjamin Ikuta <[hidden email]> ha scritto: 
>
>
>
>
> I, for one, would indeed go so far as to say we should be doing editatons about Naruto and Pokemon.
>
>
>
> On Mar 12, 2019, at 10:10 AM, Paulo Santos Perneta <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I would not go as far as saying we should be doing edithatons about Naruto
>> and Pokemons,
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] How diverse are your readers?

Gerard Meijssen-3
In reply to this post by Leila Zia
Hoi,
I have written another blogpost [1] where I express a different approach to
our data. It achieves two things

   - an understanding what subjects not articles are most popular in
   Wikipedia
   - a tool that identifies what subjects we are looking for as missing in
   any Wikipedia

the tool is based on existing functionality, it just needs additional
functionality to support people in adding new items and statements for a
Wikidata item that represents the missing subject.
I will write another blogpost where I expand on opportunities to expand
search to share in the sum of all knowledge and not on what only one
Wikipedia has to offer.
Thanks,
       GerardM

[1]
https://ultimategerardm.blogspot.com/2019/03/sharing-in-sum-of-all-knowledge-from.html

On Wed, 13 Mar 2019 at 00:12, Leila Zia <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Gerard,
>
> On Sun, Mar 10, 2019 at 2:26 PM Gerard Meijssen
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > but really
> > why can we not have the data that allows us to seek out what people are
> > actually looking for and do not find..
>
> Please open a Phabricator task for this request at
> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org . Please add Research as a tag and
> add me as one of the subscribers. I'd like to work with you on a
> concrete proposal. A few items to consider as you're expanding the
> description of the task:
>
> * We won't be able to release raw search queries as they come to
> Wikimedia servers. That is for privacy reasons.
>
> * You also likely don't need raw search queries. If you can be
> specific about what you want to have access to, as much as possible,
> that can help us get started with scoping the problem. I'm looking for
> something along these lines: "I want to be able to see a monthly list
> of top n search terms in language x that result in 0 search results or
> results where the user does not click on any of the search results
> offered." The more specific, the better. If you are in doubt, put some
> description and we can iterate on it.
>
> Best,
> Leila
> p.s. The goal of this exercise is to have an open question ready (with
> all the details one needs to know) for the next time we will have a
> volunteer researcher to work with us.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
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> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] How diverse are your readers?

Dan Garry (Deskana)
In reply to this post by Leila Zia
The topic of zero-result search queries comes up from time to time. The
logic is generally this: if we can see the top queries that got no results,
then we can figure out what users are looking for but not finding, and add
it to the encyclopedia. Wonderful user-centred thinking, and it sounds
great! The problem is, sadly, the data doesn't help us achieve this at all.

The sheer volume of requests means that a lot of the top zero-results
queries are junk. Trey Jones, an engineer on the Search Platform Team,
wrote a comprehensive analysis
<https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:TJones_(WMF)/Notes/Survey_of_Zero-Results_Queries>
a
few years ago of the top zero-result queries based on an analysis of a
500,000 multi-lingual sample. It was quite enlightening in some senses—we
found out a lot about the things that people are doing with the search
system, found some bugs in other products, and so on—but it didn't actually
help us understand what people were looking for and not finding.

Dan

On Tue, 12 Mar 2019 at 23:12, Leila Zia <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Gerard,
>
> On Sun, Mar 10, 2019 at 2:26 PM Gerard Meijssen
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > but really
> > why can we not have the data that allows us to seek out what people are
> > actually looking for and do not find..
>
> Please open a Phabricator task for this request at
> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org . Please add Research as a tag and
> add me as one of the subscribers. I'd like to work with you on a
> concrete proposal. A few items to consider as you're expanding the
> description of the task:
>
> * We won't be able to release raw search queries as they come to
> Wikimedia servers. That is for privacy reasons.
>
> * You also likely don't need raw search queries. If you can be
> specific about what you want to have access to, as much as possible,
> that can help us get started with scoping the problem. I'm looking for
> something along these lines: "I want to be able to see a monthly list
> of top n search terms in language x that result in 0 search results or
> results where the user does not click on any of the search results
> offered." The more specific, the better. If you are in doubt, put some
> description and we can iterate on it.
>
> Best,
> Leila
> p.s. The goal of this exercise is to have an open question ready (with
> all the details one needs to know) for the next time we will have a
> volunteer researcher to work with us.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] How diverse are your readers?

Ed Erhart
Hey folks,

Trey authored a Wikimedia blog post on this as well:
https://blog.wikimedia.org/2017/12/12/failed-queries-fear-of-missing-out/

--Ed

On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 11:34 AM Dan Garry (Deskana) <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> The topic of zero-result search queries comes up from time to time. The
> logic is generally this: if we can see the top queries that got no results,
> then we can figure out what users are looking for but not finding, and add
> it to the encyclopedia. Wonderful user-centred thinking, and it sounds
> great! The problem is, sadly, the data doesn't help us achieve this at all.
>
> The sheer volume of requests means that a lot of the top zero-results
> queries are junk. Trey Jones, an engineer on the Search Platform Team,
> wrote a comprehensive analysis
> <
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:TJones_(WMF)/Notes/Survey_of_Zero-Results_Queries
> >
> a
> few years ago of the top zero-result queries based on an analysis of a
> 500,000 multi-lingual sample. It was quite enlightening in some senses—we
> found out a lot about the things that people are doing with the search
> system, found some bugs in other products, and so on—but it didn't actually
> help us understand what people were looking for and not finding.
>
> Dan
>
> On Tue, 12 Mar 2019 at 23:12, Leila Zia <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Hi Gerard,
> >
> > On Sun, Mar 10, 2019 at 2:26 PM Gerard Meijssen
> > <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > but really
> > > why can we not have the data that allows us to seek out what people are
> > > actually looking for and do not find..
> >
> > Please open a Phabricator task for this request at
> > https://phabricator.wikimedia.org . Please add Research as a tag and
> > add me as one of the subscribers. I'd like to work with you on a
> > concrete proposal. A few items to consider as you're expanding the
> > description of the task:
> >
> > * We won't be able to release raw search queries as they come to
> > Wikimedia servers. That is for privacy reasons.
> >
> > * You also likely don't need raw search queries. If you can be
> > specific about what you want to have access to, as much as possible,
> > that can help us get started with scoping the problem. I'm looking for
> > something along these lines: "I want to be able to see a monthly list
> > of top n search terms in language x that result in 0 search results or
> > results where the user does not click on any of the search results
> > offered." The more specific, the better. If you are in doubt, put some
> > description and we can iterate on it.
> >
> > Best,
> > Leila
> > p.s. The goal of this exercise is to have an open question ready (with
> > all the details one needs to know) for the next time we will have a
> > volunteer researcher to work with us.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>



--
[image: Wikimedia-logo black.svg] *Ed Erhart* (he/him)

Senior Editorial Associate

Wikimedia Foundation <https://wikimediafoundation.org/>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] How diverse are your readers?

Gerard Meijssen-3
Hoi,
I read the blogpost and it utterly misses the point. The point is that this
is NOT about English Wikipedia, for them another approach will work better.
At the same time when you read my blogpost, you will find that the elephant
in the room is that we consider articles to be synonymous with subjects.
They are not. We do not have an aggregated number of most popular subjects,
subjects on all Wikipedias. When we did, we would know what the world reads
and not what is served by a single Wikipedia, the English Wikipedia.

The biggest benefit is that it will provide us with a list with less of an
Anglo-American bias. One subset of this list will be what the world reads
and is not available on English. Subjects that feature high in the world
indicate a particular kind of notability. It will be really interesting to
see how these subjects will be appreciated by the public and the "wiki
gnomes". Finding authors can be done in a similar way as the "gender bias"
approach.

Another thing where the blogpost misses the point is that is concentrates
on English Wikipedia. The only line left for the small Wikipedias is
that the gem-to-dung ratio may differ. As English has never been my
objective of this approach, it disqualifies the results. By posting this
blogpost, you make it plain you have not read or understood what it is that
I propose in my blogpost [1].

First I want the search extension by Magnus active on every Wikipedia. This
will expose all subjects known to us as a result, not just the articles on
a Wikipedia. It is save to log such an interest. All we want is a
timestamp, the language and the Qid. This is exactly what we do for
articlesl so there is no privacy issue here. I also want to invite people
to add labels and false friends in their language.

For any Wikipedia, the approach what is the most read article that you do
not have, is a valid approach to propose the writing of a new article. Some
will use this list, most will not and again, the English Wikignomes do not
know the language elsewhere.

We know what articles are receiving what traffic. It is just a data
question for us to know what new articles received what traffic in a full
month. Exposing this, highlighting their success is a powerful way to
provide recognition.

In conclusion, there is a very strong bias for English Wikipedia in the
attention given to the exclusion of others. English is less than fifty
percent of our traffic. It gets more than eighty percent of attention. As
you read in the comments of your blogpost, I am happy to collaborate but so
far it has not fit your agenda.
Thanks,
      GerardM



[1]
https://ultimategerardm.blogspot.com/2019/03/sharing-in-sum-of-all-knowledge-from.html

On Mon, 18 Mar 2019 at 18:28, Ed Erhart <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hey folks,
>
> Trey authored a Wikimedia blog post on this as well:
> https://blog.wikimedia.org/2017/12/12/failed-queries-fear-of-missing-out/
>
> --Ed
>
> On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 11:34 AM Dan Garry (Deskana) <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > The topic of zero-result search queries comes up from time to time. The
> > logic is generally this: if we can see the top queries that got no
> results,
> > then we can figure out what users are looking for but not finding, and
> add
> > it to the encyclopedia. Wonderful user-centred thinking, and it sounds
> > great! The problem is, sadly, the data doesn't help us achieve this at
> all.
> >
> > The sheer volume of requests means that a lot of the top zero-results
> > queries are junk. Trey Jones, an engineer on the Search Platform Team,
> > wrote a comprehensive analysis
> > <
> >
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:TJones_(WMF)/Notes/Survey_of_Zero-Results_Queries
> > >
> > a
> > few years ago of the top zero-result queries based on an analysis of a
> > 500,000 multi-lingual sample. It was quite enlightening in some senses—we
> > found out a lot about the things that people are doing with the search
> > system, found some bugs in other products, and so on—but it didn't
> actually
> > help us understand what people were looking for and not finding.
> >
> > Dan
> >
> > On Tue, 12 Mar 2019 at 23:12, Leila Zia <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Gerard,
> > >
> > > On Sun, Mar 10, 2019 at 2:26 PM Gerard Meijssen
> > > <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > but really
> > > > why can we not have the data that allows us to seek out what people
> are
> > > > actually looking for and do not find..
> > >
> > > Please open a Phabricator task for this request at
> > > https://phabricator.wikimedia.org . Please add Research as a tag and
> > > add me as one of the subscribers. I'd like to work with you on a
> > > concrete proposal. A few items to consider as you're expanding the
> > > description of the task:
> > >
> > > * We won't be able to release raw search queries as they come to
> > > Wikimedia servers. That is for privacy reasons.
> > >
> > > * You also likely don't need raw search queries. If you can be
> > > specific about what you want to have access to, as much as possible,
> > > that can help us get started with scoping the problem. I'm looking for
> > > something along these lines: "I want to be able to see a monthly list
> > > of top n search terms in language x that result in 0 search results or
> > > results where the user does not click on any of the search results
> > > offered." The more specific, the better. If you are in doubt, put some
> > > description and we can iterate on it.
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > Leila
> > > p.s. The goal of this exercise is to have an open question ready (with
> > > all the details one needs to know) for the next time we will have a
> > > volunteer researcher to work with us.
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
>
> --
> [image: Wikimedia-logo black.svg] *Ed Erhart* (he/him)
>
> Senior Editorial Associate
>
> Wikimedia Foundation <https://wikimediafoundation.org/>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] How diverse are your readers?

David Goodman-2
In reply to this post by Peter Southwood
Peter, all of these would be useful .  The most useful of all would be a
list of those that have been deleted as drafts that were not improved for 6
months--I havre a partial list, but there is no easy way of screening it. A
spreadsheet with links to the deleted versions and to the google scholar
and worldcat records would be an enormous help--I became an admin 12 years
ago specifically to rescue deleted articles, but there is no systematic way
of finding them.

On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 1:33 AM Peter Southwood <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> David,
> Would your work be influenced by an analysis of the academic biographies
> which are most searched for that are not on Wikipedia yet? (assuming that
> such an targeted analysis was available)
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> PS. An analysis that included a check of whether the topic was likely to
> be notable and a listing of possible sources would also save a lot of
> wasted effort. Also a check against articles that have been deleted for
> good reasons, and articles in other languages with a reasonable accessible
> reference list.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of David Goodman
> Sent: 12 March 2019 07:15
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] How diverse are your readers?
>
> "with popular topics cannibalizing resources."
>
> What resources can be cannibalized?   The limiting resource in WP is
> interested people writing, improving, and validating  articles.  People
> choose their own topics.  This is different from an organization where
> staff can be directed to work on what the management think is important.
>
> I, for example, almost totally avoid most aspects of what is popular
> culture--I am neither competent nor interested. ) The topics I work on are
> those that interest me, mainly academic biographies. I'm sure most  people
> do not think them important.  We're volunteers, and must tolerate each
> others interests.
>
> On Mon, Mar 11, 2019 at 5:06 PM John Erling Blad <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > We should be using a grid for what people are reading about, instead
> > of using countries. That will give a better representation of large
> > countries vs small countries. It will also better reflect local ethnic
> > groups.
> >
> > On Mon, Mar 11, 2019 at 1:53 PM Amir E. Aharoni
> > <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > ‫בתאריך יום א׳, 10 במרץ 2019 ב-23:27 מאת ‪Gerard Meijssen‬‏ <‪
> > > [hidden email]‬‏>:‬
> > >
> > > > Hoi,
> > > > I have been thinking about it.. There is a place for research but
> > really
> > > > why can we not have the data that allows us to seek out what people
> are
> > > > actually looking for and do not find.. Why can we not promote what
> > proves
> > > > to be of interest [1] ?
> > > >
> > >
> > > Actually, there was some work done around it. Here are some examples:
> > >
> > > 1. The Discovery (Search) team in the Foundation researched searches in
> > > Wikimedia sites' search box that yielded zero results. This was done in
> > > 2016 or so, led by Dan Garry as the product manager, and this lead to
> > some
> > > improvements in the functionality of Wikimedia sites' internal search
> > > engine, although I don't remember what they were exactly.
> > >
> > > 2. Google's Project Tiger provided lists of articles for which people
> > often
> > > search in the Google search engine in India, and about which there are
> no
> > > articles in Wikipedias in languages of India. See
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Supporting_Indian_Language_Wikipedias_Program
> > >
> > > 3. Last year I made a list of articles that people search for in their
> > > language using the interlanguage links search box and cannot find. You
> > can
> > > see a sample here:
> > >
> >
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Amire80/WEIRD/2018-04-09%E2%80%932018-04-15
> > > . I plan to make this list nicer-looking and auto-updating some time
> > soon.
> > >
> > > 4. The GapFinder project is another tool that helps people find
> articles
> > > that are missing in some wikis:
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/GapFinder
> > >
> > > 5. This is just an idea, but it's written down, which is a bit better
> > than
> > > nothing: Show the most popular articles by country in the PageViews
> tool,
> > > rather than just by language. It's documented at
> > > https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T207171 . The rationale for this is
> > that
> > > the most popular English Wikipedia articles in the U.S., Nigeria,
> India,
> > > the Philippines, and South Africa are significantly different. The
> > English
> > > Wikipedia is the most popular one in all these countries, but whereas
> it
> > is
> > > sensible that it's popular in the U.S., it's a bit depressing that it's
> > > also the most popular in the other four countries, even though
> languages
> > > other than English are spoken there. The reason for this situation is,
> of
> > > course, that there is little content in the Wikipedias in the languages
> > of
> > > these countries, and knowing what the most popular articles are can
> help
> > > people who write in these languages choose how to write that will be
> > > useful, and will hopefully raise the popularity of Wikipedias in these
> > > languages. The same is true for the most popular Russian Wikipedia
> > articles
> > > in Kyrgyzstan and Moldova, the most popular French Wikipedia articles
> in
> > > Benin and Mali, etc. This is only an idea, but maybe it will be
> > implemented
> > > some day.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
> > > http://aharoni.wordpress.com
> > > ‪“We're living in pieces,
> > > I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
>
> --
> David Goodman
>
> DGG at the enWP
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:DGG
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:DGG
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> https://www.avg.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>



--
David Goodman

DGG at the enWP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:DGG
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:DGG
_______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] How diverse are your readers?

Leila Zia
An update on this thread:

* We have launched the survey on 2019-06-26 in 15 languages and we
intend to stop the surveys 7 days after launch time. The current flow
of responses is as expected.

* The participating languages are: ar, de, en (sampling from all
countries), en (sampling from countries in Africa), es, fa, fr
(sampling from all countries), fr (sampling from countries in Africa),
he, hu, no, ro, ru, uk, zh. (A big thank you to the volunteers in
these language communities who worked with us to make the translations
and announcements on village pumps happen.)

* Please watch https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Characterizing_Wikipedia_Reader_Behaviour/Demographics_and_Wikipedia_use_cases
if you're interested to receive updates about the research as we go
through the analysis. (Please expect, roughly, a monthly update
frequency. If we can do more frequently, we will.)

* If you want the survey to run in your language community, there is a
chance that we run the same survey in a few weeks time in a few of
more languages. You can express your interest by adding a line item as
the last row of the table in
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research_talk:Characterizing_Wikipedia_Reader_Behaviour/Demographics_and_Wikipedia_use_cases#Interested_languages
. Priority is given to languages who have signed up prior to this
announcement. We can't guarantee that we can run these extra surveys.

And one logistical announcement: As some of you know, Isaac Johnson
from the Research team is working heavily on this stage of the
research (demographics+motivation/needs). As a result, some or all of
the future announcements about this stage of the research may come
from him instead of me. :)

Best,
Leila

On Tue, Mar 19, 2019 at 11:07 PM David Goodman <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Peter, all of these would be useful .  The most useful of all would be a
> list of those that have been deleted as drafts that were not improved for 6
> months--I havre a partial list, but there is no easy way of screening it. A
> spreadsheet with links to the deleted versions and to the google scholar
> and worldcat records would be an enormous help--I became an admin 12 years
> ago specifically to rescue deleted articles, but there is no systematic way
> of finding them.
>
> On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 1:33 AM Peter Southwood <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > David,
> > Would your work be influenced by an analysis of the academic biographies
> > which are most searched for that are not on Wikipedia yet? (assuming that
> > such an targeted analysis was available)
> > Cheers,
> > Peter
> >
> > PS. An analysis that included a check of whether the topic was likely to
> > be notable and a listing of possible sources would also save a lot of
> > wasted effort. Also a check against articles that have been deleted for
> > good reasons, and articles in other languages with a reasonable accessible
> > reference list.
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> > Behalf Of David Goodman
> > Sent: 12 March 2019 07:15
> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] How diverse are your readers?
> >
> > "with popular topics cannibalizing resources."
> >
> > What resources can be cannibalized?   The limiting resource in WP is
> > interested people writing, improving, and validating  articles.  People
> > choose their own topics.  This is different from an organization where
> > staff can be directed to work on what the management think is important.
> >
> > I, for example, almost totally avoid most aspects of what is popular
> > culture--I am neither competent nor interested. ) The topics I work on are
> > those that interest me, mainly academic biographies. I'm sure most  people
> > do not think them important.  We're volunteers, and must tolerate each
> > others interests.
> >
> > On Mon, Mar 11, 2019 at 5:06 PM John Erling Blad <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > We should be using a grid for what people are reading about, instead
> > > of using countries. That will give a better representation of large
> > > countries vs small countries. It will also better reflect local ethnic
> > > groups.
> > >
> > > On Mon, Mar 11, 2019 at 1:53 PM Amir E. Aharoni
> > > <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > ‫בתאריך יום א׳, 10 במרץ 2019 ב-23:27 מאת ‪Gerard Meijssen‬‏ <‪
> > > > [hidden email]‬‏>:‬
> > > >
> > > > > Hoi,
> > > > > I have been thinking about it.. There is a place for research but
> > > really
> > > > > why can we not have the data that allows us to seek out what people
> > are
> > > > > actually looking for and do not find.. Why can we not promote what
> > > proves
> > > > > to be of interest [1] ?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Actually, there was some work done around it. Here are some examples:
> > > >
> > > > 1. The Discovery (Search) team in the Foundation researched searches in
> > > > Wikimedia sites' search box that yielded zero results. This was done in
> > > > 2016 or so, led by Dan Garry as the product manager, and this lead to
> > > some
> > > > improvements in the functionality of Wikimedia sites' internal search
> > > > engine, although I don't remember what they were exactly.
> > > >
> > > > 2. Google's Project Tiger provided lists of articles for which people
> > > often
> > > > search in the Google search engine in India, and about which there are
> > no
> > > > articles in Wikipedias in languages of India. See
> > > >
> > >
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Supporting_Indian_Language_Wikipedias_Program
> > > >
> > > > 3. Last year I made a list of articles that people search for in their
> > > > language using the interlanguage links search box and cannot find. You
> > > can
> > > > see a sample here:
> > > >
> > >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Amire80/WEIRD/2018-04-09%E2%80%932018-04-15
> > > > . I plan to make this list nicer-looking and auto-updating some time
> > > soon.
> > > >
> > > > 4. The GapFinder project is another tool that helps people find
> > articles
> > > > that are missing in some wikis:
> > https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/GapFinder
> > > >
> > > > 5. This is just an idea, but it's written down, which is a bit better
> > > than
> > > > nothing: Show the most popular articles by country in the PageViews
> > tool,
> > > > rather than just by language. It's documented at
> > > > https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T207171 . The rationale for this is
> > > that
> > > > the most popular English Wikipedia articles in the U.S., Nigeria,
> > India,
> > > > the Philippines, and South Africa are significantly different. The
> > > English
> > > > Wikipedia is the most popular one in all these countries, but whereas
> > it
> > > is
> > > > sensible that it's popular in the U.S., it's a bit depressing that it's
> > > > also the most popular in the other four countries, even though
> > languages
> > > > other than English are spoken there. The reason for this situation is,
> > of
> > > > course, that there is little content in the Wikipedias in the languages
> > > of
> > > > these countries, and knowing what the most popular articles are can
> > help
> > > > people who write in these languages choose how to write that will be
> > > > useful, and will hopefully raise the popularity of Wikipedias in these
> > > > languages. The same is true for the most popular Russian Wikipedia
> > > articles
> > > > in Kyrgyzstan and Moldova, the most popular French Wikipedia articles
> > in
> > > > Benin and Mali, etc. This is only an idea, but maybe it will be
> > > implemented
> > > > some day.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
> > > > http://aharoni.wordpress.com
> > > > ‪“We're living in pieces,
> > > > I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > David Goodman
> >
> > DGG at the enWP
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:DGG
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:DGG
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> > ---
> > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> > https://www.avg.com
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
>
> --
> David Goodman
>
> DGG at the enWP
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:DGG
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:DGG
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>

_______________________________________________
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New messages to: [hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] How diverse are your readers?

Isaac Johnson
A few updates from the last few months:

* The surveys successfully ran for one week. We were able to gather 63,000
responses across the 13 languages. I presented preliminary results about
this at Wikimania in August and have now added the high-level results to
Meta:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Characterizing_Wikipedia_Reader_Behaviour/Demographics_and_Wikipedia_use_cases#June_2019_Results

* More data will be added to the results there as we can validate it.
Specifically, I am hoping to publish country-specific results where we have
sufficient responses as well as data regarding the cross-tabulation of
various questions from the survey and aspects of reader sessions.

* We are currently running a longer survey with lower sampling rates to
test if we are able to reach less-frequent readers of Wikipedia and whether
this changes any of our results. When we have analyzed this information, we
will update the results to indicate whether anything changes.

Best,
Isaac

On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 4:17 AM Leila Zia <[hidden email]> wrote:

> An update on this thread:
>
> * We have launched the survey on 2019-06-26 in 15 languages and we
> intend to stop the surveys 7 days after launch time. The current flow
> of responses is as expected.
>
> * The participating languages are: ar, de, en (sampling from all
> countries), en (sampling from countries in Africa), es, fa, fr
> (sampling from all countries), fr (sampling from countries in Africa),
> he, hu, no, ro, ru, uk, zh. (A big thank you to the volunteers in
> these language communities who worked with us to make the translations
> and announcements on village pumps happen.)
>
> * Please watch
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Characterizing_Wikipedia_Reader_Behaviour/Demographics_and_Wikipedia_use_cases
> if you're interested to receive updates about the research as we go
> through the analysis. (Please expect, roughly, a monthly update
> frequency. If we can do more frequently, we will.)
>
> * If you want the survey to run in your language community, there is a
> chance that we run the same survey in a few weeks time in a few of
> more languages. You can express your interest by adding a line item as
> the last row of the table in
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research_talk:Characterizing_Wikipedia_Reader_Behaviour/Demographics_and_Wikipedia_use_cases#Interested_languages
> . Priority is given to languages who have signed up prior to this
> announcement. We can't guarantee that we can run these extra surveys.
>
> And one logistical announcement: As some of you know, Isaac Johnson
> from the Research team is working heavily on this stage of the
> research (demographics+motivation/needs). As a result, some or all of
> the future announcements about this stage of the research may come
> from him instead of me. :)
>
> Best,
> Leila
>
> On Tue, Mar 19, 2019 at 11:07 PM David Goodman <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Peter, all of these would be useful .  The most useful of all would be a
> > list of those that have been deleted as drafts that were not improved
> for 6
> > months--I havre a partial list, but there is no easy way of screening
> it. A
> > spreadsheet with links to the deleted versions and to the google scholar
> > and worldcat records would be an enormous help--I became an admin 12
> years
> > ago specifically to rescue deleted articles, but there is no systematic
> way
> > of finding them.
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 1:33 AM Peter Southwood <
> > [hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > David,
> > > Would your work be influenced by an analysis of the academic
> biographies
> > > which are most searched for that are not on Wikipedia yet? (assuming
> that
> > > such an targeted analysis was available)
> > > Cheers,
> > > Peter
> > >
> > > PS. An analysis that included a check of whether the topic was likely
> to
> > > be notable and a listing of possible sources would also save a lot of
> > > wasted effort. Also a check against articles that have been deleted for
> > > good reasons, and articles in other languages with a reasonable
> accessible
> > > reference list.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> > > Behalf Of David Goodman
> > > Sent: 12 March 2019 07:15
> > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] How diverse are your readers?
> > >
> > > "with popular topics cannibalizing resources."
> > >
> > > What resources can be cannibalized?   The limiting resource in WP is
> > > interested people writing, improving, and validating  articles.  People
> > > choose their own topics.  This is different from an organization where
> > > staff can be directed to work on what the management think is
> important.
> > >
> > > I, for example, almost totally avoid most aspects of what is popular
> > > culture--I am neither competent nor interested. ) The topics I work on
> are
> > > those that interest me, mainly academic biographies. I'm sure most
> people
> > > do not think them important.  We're volunteers, and must tolerate each
> > > others interests.
> > >
> > > On Mon, Mar 11, 2019 at 5:06 PM John Erling Blad <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > We should be using a grid for what people are reading about, instead
> > > > of using countries. That will give a better representation of large
> > > > countries vs small countries. It will also better reflect local
> ethnic
> > > > groups.
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Mar 11, 2019 at 1:53 PM Amir E. Aharoni
> > > > <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > ‫בתאריך יום א׳, 10 במרץ 2019 ב-23:27 מאת ‪Gerard Meijssen‬‏ <‪
> > > > > [hidden email]‬‏>:‬
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hoi,
> > > > > > I have been thinking about it.. There is a place for research but
> > > > really
> > > > > > why can we not have the data that allows us to seek out what
> people
> > > are
> > > > > > actually looking for and do not find.. Why can we not promote
> what
> > > > proves
> > > > > > to be of interest [1] ?
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Actually, there was some work done around it. Here are some
> examples:
> > > > >
> > > > > 1. The Discovery (Search) team in the Foundation researched
> searches in
> > > > > Wikimedia sites' search box that yielded zero results. This was
> done in
> > > > > 2016 or so, led by Dan Garry as the product manager, and this lead
> to
> > > > some
> > > > > improvements in the functionality of Wikimedia sites' internal
> search
> > > > > engine, although I don't remember what they were exactly.
> > > > >
> > > > > 2. Google's Project Tiger provided lists of articles for which
> people
> > > > often
> > > > > search in the Google search engine in India, and about which there
> are
> > > no
> > > > > articles in Wikipedias in languages of India. See
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Supporting_Indian_Language_Wikipedias_Program
> > > > >
> > > > > 3. Last year I made a list of articles that people search for in
> their
> > > > > language using the interlanguage links search box and cannot find.
> You
> > > > can
> > > > > see a sample here:
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Amire80/WEIRD/2018-04-09%E2%80%932018-04-15
> > > > > . I plan to make this list nicer-looking and auto-updating some
> time
> > > > soon.
> > > > >
> > > > > 4. The GapFinder project is another tool that helps people find
> > > articles
> > > > > that are missing in some wikis:
> > > https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/GapFinder
> > > > >
> > > > > 5. This is just an idea, but it's written down, which is a bit
> better
> > > > than
> > > > > nothing: Show the most popular articles by country in the PageViews
> > > tool,
> > > > > rather than just by language. It's documented at
> > > > > https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T207171 . The rationale for
> this is
> > > > that
> > > > > the most popular English Wikipedia articles in the U.S., Nigeria,
> > > India,
> > > > > the Philippines, and South Africa are significantly different. The
> > > > English
> > > > > Wikipedia is the most popular one in all these countries, but
> whereas
> > > it
> > > > is
> > > > > sensible that it's popular in the U.S., it's a bit depressing that
> it's
> > > > > also the most popular in the other four countries, even though
> > > languages
> > > > > other than English are spoken there. The reason for this situation
> is,
> > > of
> > > > > course, that there is little content in the Wikipedias in the
> languages
> > > > of
> > > > > these countries, and knowing what the most popular articles are can
> > > help
> > > > > people who write in these languages choose how to write that will
> be
> > > > > useful, and will hopefully raise the popularity of Wikipedias in
> these
> > > > > languages. The same is true for the most popular Russian Wikipedia
> > > > articles
> > > > > in Kyrgyzstan and Moldova, the most popular French Wikipedia
> articles
> > > in
> > > > > Benin and Mali, etc. This is only an idea, but maybe it will be
> > > > implemented
> > > > > some day.
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
> > > > > http://aharoni.wordpress.com
> > > > > ‪“We're living in pieces,
> > > > > I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > David Goodman
> > >
> > > DGG at the enWP
> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:DGG
> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:DGG
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > > ---
> > > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> > > https://www.avg.com
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > David Goodman
> >
> > DGG at the enWP
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:DGG
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:DGG
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>



--
Isaac Johnson (he/him/his) -- Research Scientist -- Wikimedia Foundation
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