[Wikimedia-l] How to communicate compassionately with non-native English speakers

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[Wikimedia-l] How to communicate compassionately with non-native English speakers

Nick Wilson (Quiddity)
https://medium.com/@mollyclare/taming-the-steamroller-how-to-communicate-compassionately-with-non-native-english-speakers-d95d8d1845a0
A good essay.

TL;DR: Some detailed examples of how to improve communication and
interactions, for the benefit of anyone who uses English as a second
language.


Excerpts, to whet [sharpen or stimulate] your appetite:

> Phrasal verbs in English can be particularly hard to master. Just think
about “cut off” vs. “cut up” vs. “cut over” vs. “cut in” vs. “cut out” vs.
“cut down” vs. “cut back” and you’ll see how confusing it can be when you
recommend “cutting back” on something, or asking someone to “cut it out”.
[...]

> Make your message very clear, especially your request. This is doubly
true for me, because I work with Germans, who are famously direct. The
American habit of softening and burying a request is just confusing and
pointless to them.

> The last thing you and I want to do is overwhelm. We work across language
barriers, not because it’s glamorous or fun or easy, but because we care
about collaborating with people who are different from us [...]. And
non-native speakers are committing to this collaboration even more than we
are: they’re reaching out to us by working in English. [...]

n.b. Yes, there are some over-generalizations and stereotypes in there.
It's still good overall, though! ;-)


I'd like to link it on Metawiki, but I'm not sure where; Any suggestions?
I've gotten (happily) lost in the [[Multilingual]] disambig page, and the
[[Grants:Learning patterns]] pages, but the only place I can find that
collects advice like this, is the first section at
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tech/News/Manual#Guidelines - What page
might I have missed?

Quiddity
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] How to communicate compassionately with non-native English speakers

Birgit Müller
Nick, thanks for sharing! This is really awesome. (Or should I write: "This
is helpful" to fit into the German stereotype? :D)

Link it on Meta: I found
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Best_practices_in_giving_a_Wikipedia_presentation
and
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Presentations, but both pages seem to be a
bit outdated/not visited very often.

Might also make sense to link it on the general conference/Hackathon pages
like
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Hackathons/Hackathon_tips_for_organizers#Communications
?

cheers
Birgit





2016-07-05 21:59 GMT+02:00 Nick Wilson (Quiddity) <[hidden email]>:

>
> https://medium.com/@mollyclare/taming-the-steamroller-how-to-communicate-compassionately-with-non-native-english-speakers-d95d8d1845a0
> A good essay.
>
> TL;DR: Some detailed examples of how to improve communication and
> interactions, for the benefit of anyone who uses English as a second
> language.
>
>
> Excerpts, to whet [sharpen or stimulate] your appetite:
>
> > Phrasal verbs in English can be particularly hard to master. Just think
> about “cut off” vs. “cut up” vs. “cut over” vs. “cut in” vs. “cut out” vs.
> “cut down” vs. “cut back” and you’ll see how confusing it can be when you
> recommend “cutting back” on something, or asking someone to “cut it out”.
> [...]
>
> > Make your message very clear, especially your request. This is doubly
> true for me, because I work with Germans, who are famously direct. The
> American habit of softening and burying a request is just confusing and
> pointless to them.
>
> > The last thing you and I want to do is overwhelm. We work across language
> barriers, not because it’s glamorous or fun or easy, but because we care
> about collaborating with people who are different from us [...]. And
> non-native speakers are committing to this collaboration even more than we
> are: they’re reaching out to us by working in English. [...]
>
> n.b. Yes, there are some over-generalizations and stereotypes in there.
> It's still good overall, though! ;-)
>
>
> I'd like to link it on Metawiki, but I'm not sure where; Any suggestions?
> I've gotten (happily) lost in the [[Multilingual]] disambig page, and the
> [[Grants:Learning patterns]] pages, but the only place I can find that
> collects advice like this, is the first section at
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tech/News/Manual#Guidelines - What page
> might I have missed?
>
> Quiddity
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>




--
Birgit Müller
Community Communications Manager
Software Development and Engineering




Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. | Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 | 10963 Berlin
Tel. (030) 219 158 26-0
http://wikimedia.de

Stellen Sie sich eine Welt vor, in der jeder Mensch an der Menge allen
Wissens frei teilhaben kann. Helfen Sie uns dabei!
http://spenden.wikimedia.de/

Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V.
Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter
der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für
Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] How to communicate compassionately with non-native English speakers

Yusuke Matsubara
> 2016-07-05 21:59 GMT+02:00 Nick Wilson (Quiddity) <[hidden email]>:
>> I'd like to link it on Metawiki, but I'm not sure where; Any suggestions?
>> I've gotten (happily) lost in the [[Multilingual]] disambig page, and the
>> [[Grants:Learning patterns]] pages, but the only place I can find that
>> collects advice like this, is the first section at
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tech/News/Manual#Guidelines - What page
>> might I have missed?

On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 5:05 AM, Birgit Müller
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Link it on Meta: I found
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Best_practices_in_giving_a_Wikipedia_presentation
> and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Presentations, but both pages seem to be a
> bit outdated/not visited very often.
>

Perhaps https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Writing_clearly as well?

-Yusuke

On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 5:05 AM, Birgit Müller
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Nick, thanks for sharing! This is really awesome. (Or should I write: "This
> is helpful" to fit into the German stereotype? :D)
>
> Link it on Meta: I found
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Best_practices_in_giving_a_Wikipedia_presentation
> and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Presentations, but both pages seem to be a
> bit outdated/not visited very often.
>
> Might also make sense to link it on the general conference/Hackathon pages
> like
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Hackathons/Hackathon_tips_for_organizers#Communications
> ?
>
> cheers
> Birgit
>
>
>
>
>
> 2016-07-05 21:59 GMT+02:00 Nick Wilson (Quiddity) <[hidden email]>:
>
>>
>> https://medium.com/@mollyclare/taming-the-steamroller-how-to-communicate-compassionately-with-non-native-english-speakers-d95d8d1845a0
>> A good essay.
>>
>> TL;DR: Some detailed examples of how to improve communication and
>> interactions, for the benefit of anyone who uses English as a second
>> language.
>>
>>
>> Excerpts, to whet [sharpen or stimulate] your appetite:
>>
>> > Phrasal verbs in English can be particularly hard to master. Just think
>> about “cut off” vs. “cut up” vs. “cut over” vs. “cut in” vs. “cut out” vs.
>> “cut down” vs. “cut back” and you’ll see how confusing it can be when you
>> recommend “cutting back” on something, or asking someone to “cut it out”.
>> [...]
>>
>> > Make your message very clear, especially your request. This is doubly
>> true for me, because I work with Germans, who are famously direct. The
>> American habit of softening and burying a request is just confusing and
>> pointless to them.
>>
>> > The last thing you and I want to do is overwhelm. We work across language
>> barriers, not because it’s glamorous or fun or easy, but because we care
>> about collaborating with people who are different from us [...]. And
>> non-native speakers are committing to this collaboration even more than we
>> are: they’re reaching out to us by working in English. [...]
>>
>> n.b. Yes, there are some over-generalizations and stereotypes in there.
>> It's still good overall, though! ;-)
>>
>>
>> I'd like to link it on Metawiki, but I'm not sure where; Any suggestions?
>> I've gotten (happily) lost in the [[Multilingual]] disambig page, and the
>> [[Grants:Learning patterns]] pages, but the only place I can find that
>> collects advice like this, is the first section at
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tech/News/Manual#Guidelines - What page
>> might I have missed?
>>
>> Quiddity
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>> New messages to: [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Birgit Müller
> Community Communications Manager
> Software Development and Engineering
>
>
>
>
> Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. | Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 | 10963 Berlin
> Tel. (030) 219 158 26-0
> http://wikimedia.de
>
> Stellen Sie sich eine Welt vor, in der jeder Mensch an der Menge allen
> Wissens frei teilhaben kann. Helfen Sie uns dabei!
> http://spenden.wikimedia.de/
>
> Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V.
> Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter
> der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für
> Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985.
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] How to communicate compassionately with non-native English speakers

Gerard Meijssen-3
In reply to this post by Nick Wilson (Quiddity)
Hoi,
I have been thinking about what you say. The problem I see is that your
attitude is one where you have to be compassionate for the benefit of
people for whom English is a second language. What this means is that you
see yourself as superior because your English is so great and they have a
problem with English or Anglo culture.The logical conclusion is probably
that English and Angloism has to be central to what we do.

This is the Wikimedia list and when you follow this list, it is people from
all over the world that subscribe and comment. It is highly biased by group
think and I have observed that there is little willingness to consider
notions that do not fit in well with the group think.The biggest problem in
this is not language but an unwillingness to consider arguments.

It is easy to say "we have to be compassionate" and because of that we have
to choose our words well. It is tough to consider that it is not so much
the words that are used but it is understanding what points are made and
how they challenge the status quo.
Thanks,
      GerardM

On 5 July 2016 at 21:59, Nick Wilson (Quiddity) <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>
> https://medium.com/@mollyclare/taming-the-steamroller-how-to-communicate-compassionately-with-non-native-english-speakers-d95d8d1845a0
> A good essay.
>
> TL;DR: Some detailed examples of how to improve communication and
> interactions, for the benefit of anyone who uses English as a second
> language.
>
>
> Excerpts, to whet [sharpen or stimulate] your appetite:
>
> > Phrasal verbs in English can be particularly hard to master. Just think
> about “cut off” vs. “cut up” vs. “cut over” vs. “cut in” vs. “cut out” vs.
> “cut down” vs. “cut back” and you’ll see how confusing it can be when you
> recommend “cutting back” on something, or asking someone to “cut it out”.
> [...]
>
> > Make your message very clear, especially your request. This is doubly
> true for me, because I work with Germans, who are famously direct. The
> American habit of softening and burying a request is just confusing and
> pointless to them.
>
> > The last thing you and I want to do is overwhelm. We work across language
> barriers, not because it’s glamorous or fun or easy, but because we care
> about collaborating with people who are different from us [...]. And
> non-native speakers are committing to this collaboration even more than we
> are: they’re reaching out to us by working in English. [...]
>
> n.b. Yes, there are some over-generalizations and stereotypes in there.
> It's still good overall, though! ;-)
>
>
> I'd like to link it on Metawiki, but I'm not sure where; Any suggestions?
> I've gotten (happily) lost in the [[Multilingual]] disambig page, and the
> [[Grants:Learning patterns]] pages, but the only place I can find that
> collects advice like this, is the first section at
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tech/News/Manual#Guidelines - What page
> might I have missed?
>
> Quiddity
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
_______________________________________________
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New messages to: [hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] How to communicate compassionately with non-native English speakers

Michael Jahn-3
"it is not so much
the words that are used but it is understanding what points are made and
how they challenge the status quo."

--> This may be true, and what we should strive for as a movement. But you
still need words to make those points, and while one may fail to understand
what points are being made, even if all the words are understood properly,
the opposite makes the difference. If you _don't_ understand the words in
the first place, i. e. attribute a different meaning than the
speaker/author had intended, you _cannot_ be in a position to understand
the points.
So, thanks Nick, for sharing! I like your post very much.
Michael
Am 07.07.2016 9:35 vorm. schrieb "Gerard Meijssen" <
[hidden email]>:

> Hoi,
> I have been thinking about what you say. The problem I see is that your
> attitude is one where you have to be compassionate for the benefit of
> people for whom English is a second language. What this means is that you
> see yourself as superior because your English is so great and they have a
> problem with English or Anglo culture.The logical conclusion is probably
> that English and Angloism has to be central to what we do.
>
> This is the Wikimedia list and when you follow this list, it is people from
> all over the world that subscribe and comment. It is highly biased by group
> think and I have observed that there is little willingness to consider
> notions that do not fit in well with the group think.The biggest problem in
> this is not language but an unwillingness to consider arguments.
>
> It is easy to say "we have to be compassionate" and because of that we have
> to choose our words well. It is tough to consider that it is not so much
> the words that are used but it is understanding what points are made and
> how they challenge the status quo.
> Thanks,
>       GerardM
>
> On 5 July 2016 at 21:59, Nick Wilson (Quiddity) <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> https://medium.com/@mollyclare/taming-the-steamroller-how-to-communicate-compassionately-with-non-native-english-speakers-d95d8d1845a0
> > A good essay.
> >
> > TL;DR: Some detailed examples of how to improve communication and
> > interactions, for the benefit of anyone who uses English as a second
> > language.
> >
> >
> > Excerpts, to whet [sharpen or stimulate] your appetite:
> >
> > > Phrasal verbs in English can be particularly hard to master. Just think
> > about “cut off” vs. “cut up” vs. “cut over” vs. “cut in” vs. “cut out”
> vs.
> > “cut down” vs. “cut back” and you’ll see how confusing it can be when you
> > recommend “cutting back” on something, or asking someone to “cut it out”.
> > [...]
> >
> > > Make your message very clear, especially your request. This is doubly
> > true for me, because I work with Germans, who are famously direct. The
> > American habit of softening and burying a request is just confusing and
> > pointless to them.
> >
> > > The last thing you and I want to do is overwhelm. We work across
> language
> > barriers, not because it’s glamorous or fun or easy, but because we care
> > about collaborating with people who are different from us [...]. And
> > non-native speakers are committing to this collaboration even more than
> we
> > are: they’re reaching out to us by working in English. [...]
> >
> > n.b. Yes, there are some over-generalizations and stereotypes in there.
> > It's still good overall, though! ;-)
> >
> >
> > I'd like to link it on Metawiki, but I'm not sure where; Any suggestions?
> > I've gotten (happily) lost in the [[Multilingual]] disambig page, and the
> > [[Grants:Learning patterns]] pages, but the only place I can find that
> > collects advice like this, is the first section at
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tech/News/Manual#Guidelines - What page
> > might I have missed?
> >
> > Quiddity
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] How to communicate compassionately with non-native English speakers

Gerard Meijssen-3
Hoi,
You forget the other part that is so vital. Compassion is for the weak, it
puts you in a superior position. The problem is much more in the
understanding of what someone else has to say. It is not only about
sending, it is as much about receiving. Listening, understanding is where
we have a problem. Not so much in the choice of words.
Thanks,
       GerardM

On 7 July 2016 at 09:50, Michael Jahn <[hidden email]> wrote:

> "it is not so much
> the words that are used but it is understanding what points are made and
> how they challenge the status quo."
>
> --> This may be true, and what we should strive for as a movement. But you
> still need words to make those points, and while one may fail to understand
> what points are being made, even if all the words are understood properly,
> the opposite makes the difference. If you _don't_ understand the words in
> the first place, i. e. attribute a different meaning than the
> speaker/author had intended, you _cannot_ be in a position to understand
> the points.
> So, thanks Nick, for sharing! I like your post very much.
> Michael
> Am 07.07.2016 9:35 vorm. schrieb "Gerard Meijssen" <
> [hidden email]>:
>
> > Hoi,
> > I have been thinking about what you say. The problem I see is that your
> > attitude is one where you have to be compassionate for the benefit of
> > people for whom English is a second language. What this means is that you
> > see yourself as superior because your English is so great and they have a
> > problem with English or Anglo culture.The logical conclusion is probably
> > that English and Angloism has to be central to what we do.
> >
> > This is the Wikimedia list and when you follow this list, it is people
> from
> > all over the world that subscribe and comment. It is highly biased by
> group
> > think and I have observed that there is little willingness to consider
> > notions that do not fit in well with the group think.The biggest problem
> in
> > this is not language but an unwillingness to consider arguments.
> >
> > It is easy to say "we have to be compassionate" and because of that we
> have
> > to choose our words well. It is tough to consider that it is not so much
> > the words that are used but it is understanding what points are made and
> > how they challenge the status quo.
> > Thanks,
> >       GerardM
> >
> > On 5 July 2016 at 21:59, Nick Wilson (Quiddity) <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://medium.com/@mollyclare/taming-the-steamroller-how-to-communicate-compassionately-with-non-native-english-speakers-d95d8d1845a0
> > > A good essay.
> > >
> > > TL;DR: Some detailed examples of how to improve communication and
> > > interactions, for the benefit of anyone who uses English as a second
> > > language.
> > >
> > >
> > > Excerpts, to whet [sharpen or stimulate] your appetite:
> > >
> > > > Phrasal verbs in English can be particularly hard to master. Just
> think
> > > about “cut off” vs. “cut up” vs. “cut over” vs. “cut in” vs. “cut out”
> > vs.
> > > “cut down” vs. “cut back” and you’ll see how confusing it can be when
> you
> > > recommend “cutting back” on something, or asking someone to “cut it
> out”.
> > > [...]
> > >
> > > > Make your message very clear, especially your request. This is doubly
> > > true for me, because I work with Germans, who are famously direct. The
> > > American habit of softening and burying a request is just confusing and
> > > pointless to them.
> > >
> > > > The last thing you and I want to do is overwhelm. We work across
> > language
> > > barriers, not because it’s glamorous or fun or easy, but because we
> care
> > > about collaborating with people who are different from us [...]. And
> > > non-native speakers are committing to this collaboration even more than
> > we
> > > are: they’re reaching out to us by working in English. [...]
> > >
> > > n.b. Yes, there are some over-generalizations and stereotypes in there.
> > > It's still good overall, though! ;-)
> > >
> > >
> > > I'd like to link it on Metawiki, but I'm not sure where; Any
> suggestions?
> > > I've gotten (happily) lost in the [[Multilingual]] disambig page, and
> the
> > > [[Grants:Learning patterns]] pages, but the only place I can find that
> > > collects advice like this, is the first section at
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tech/News/Manual#Guidelines - What
> page
> > > might I have missed?
> > >
> > > Quiddity
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] How to communicate compassionately with non-native English speakers

Bence Damokos
Gerard,
I for one do not really understand the point you are making..., especially
as it relates to best practices in communicating across cultures and
linguistic backgrounds.


Best regards,
Bence

On Thursday, 7 July 2016, Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hoi,
> You forget the other part that is so vital. Compassion is for the weak, it
> puts you in a superior position. The problem is much more in the
> understanding of what someone else has to say. It is not only about
> sending, it is as much about receiving. Listening, understanding is where
> we have a problem. Not so much in the choice of words.
> Thanks,
>        GerardM
>
> On 7 July 2016 at 09:50, Michael Jahn <[hidden email]
> <javascript:;>> wrote:
>
> > "it is not so much
> > the words that are used but it is understanding what points are made and
> > how they challenge the status quo."
> >
> > --> This may be true, and what we should strive for as a movement. But
> you
> > still need words to make those points, and while one may fail to
> understand
> > what points are being made, even if all the words are understood
> properly,
> > the opposite makes the difference. If you _don't_ understand the words in
> > the first place, i. e. attribute a different meaning than the
> > speaker/author had intended, you _cannot_ be in a position to understand
> > the points.
> > So, thanks Nick, for sharing! I like your post very much.
> > Michael
> > Am 07.07.2016 9:35 vorm. schrieb "Gerard Meijssen" <
> > [hidden email] <javascript:;>>:
> >
> > > Hoi,
> > > I have been thinking about what you say. The problem I see is that your
> > > attitude is one where you have to be compassionate for the benefit of
> > > people for whom English is a second language. What this means is that
> you
> > > see yourself as superior because your English is so great and they
> have a
> > > problem with English or Anglo culture.The logical conclusion is
> probably
> > > that English and Angloism has to be central to what we do.
> > >
> > > This is the Wikimedia list and when you follow this list, it is people
> > from
> > > all over the world that subscribe and comment. It is highly biased by
> > group
> > > think and I have observed that there is little willingness to consider
> > > notions that do not fit in well with the group think.The biggest
> problem
> > in
> > > this is not language but an unwillingness to consider arguments.
> > >
> > > It is easy to say "we have to be compassionate" and because of that we
> > have
> > > to choose our words well. It is tough to consider that it is not so
> much
> > > the words that are used but it is understanding what points are made
> and
> > > how they challenge the status quo.
> > > Thanks,
> > >       GerardM
> > >
> > > On 5 July 2016 at 21:59, Nick Wilson (Quiddity) <[hidden email]
> <javascript:;>>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://medium.com/@mollyclare/taming-the-steamroller-how-to-communicate-compassionately-with-non-native-english-speakers-d95d8d1845a0
> > > > A good essay.
> > > >
> > > > TL;DR: Some detailed examples of how to improve communication and
> > > > interactions, for the benefit of anyone who uses English as a second
> > > > language.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Excerpts, to whet [sharpen or stimulate] your appetite:
> > > >
> > > > > Phrasal verbs in English can be particularly hard to master. Just
> > think
> > > > about “cut off” vs. “cut up” vs. “cut over” vs. “cut in” vs. “cut
> out”
> > > vs.
> > > > “cut down” vs. “cut back” and you’ll see how confusing it can be when
> > you
> > > > recommend “cutting back” on something, or asking someone to “cut it
> > out”.
> > > > [...]
> > > >
> > > > > Make your message very clear, especially your request. This is
> doubly
> > > > true for me, because I work with Germans, who are famously direct.
> The
> > > > American habit of softening and burying a request is just confusing
> and
> > > > pointless to them.
> > > >
> > > > > The last thing you and I want to do is overwhelm. We work across
> > > language
> > > > barriers, not because it’s glamorous or fun or easy, but because we
> > care
> > > > about collaborating with people who are different from us [...]. And
> > > > non-native speakers are committing to this collaboration even more
> than
> > > we
> > > > are: they’re reaching out to us by working in English. [...]
> > > >
> > > > n.b. Yes, there are some over-generalizations and stereotypes in
> there.
> > > > It's still good overall, though! ;-)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I'd like to link it on Metawiki, but I'm not sure where; Any
> > suggestions?
> > > > I've gotten (happily) lost in the [[Multilingual]] disambig page, and
> > the
> > > > [[Grants:Learning patterns]] pages, but the only place I can find
> that
> > > > collects advice like this, is the first section at
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tech/News/Manual#Guidelines - What
> > page
> > > > might I have missed?
> > > >
> > > > Quiddity
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > New messages to: [hidden email] <javascript:;>
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email] <javascript:;>
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > New messages to: [hidden email] <javascript:;>
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email] <javascript:;>
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > New messages to: [hidden email] <javascript:;>
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email] <javascript:;>
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
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> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: [hidden email] <javascript:;>
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--
--
Bence Damokos

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] How to communicate compassionately with non-native English speakers

Vi to
I have a similar feeling while reading this article: the author has the
best intentions but her attitude in doing them is way so wrong.

Vito


Il 07/07/2016 10:32, Bence Damokos ha scritto:

> Gerard,
> I for one do not really understand the point you are making..., especially
> as it relates to best practices in communicating across cultures and
> linguistic backgrounds.
>
>
> Best regards,
> Bence
>
> On Thursday, 7 July 2016, Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Hoi,
>> You forget the other part that is so vital. Compassion is for the weak, it
>> puts you in a superior position. The problem is much more in the
>> understanding of what someone else has to say. It is not only about
>> sending, it is as much about receiving. Listening, understanding is where
>> we have a problem. Not so much in the choice of words.
>> Thanks,
>>         GerardM
>>
>> On 7 July 2016 at 09:50, Michael Jahn <[hidden email]
>> <javascript:;>> wrote:
>>
>>> "it is not so much
>>> the words that are used but it is understanding what points are made and
>>> how they challenge the status quo."
>>>
>>> --> This may be true, and what we should strive for as a movement. But
>> you
>>> still need words to make those points, and while one may fail to
>> understand
>>> what points are being made, even if all the words are understood
>> properly,
>>> the opposite makes the difference. If you _don't_ understand the words in
>>> the first place, i. e. attribute a different meaning than the
>>> speaker/author had intended, you _cannot_ be in a position to understand
>>> the points.
>>> So, thanks Nick, for sharing! I like your post very much.
>>> Michael
>>> Am 07.07.2016 9:35 vorm. schrieb "Gerard Meijssen" <
>>> [hidden email] <javascript:;>>:
>>>
>>>> Hoi,
>>>> I have been thinking about what you say. The problem I see is that your
>>>> attitude is one where you have to be compassionate for the benefit of
>>>> people for whom English is a second language. What this means is that
>> you
>>>> see yourself as superior because your English is so great and they
>> have a
>>>> problem with English or Anglo culture.The logical conclusion is
>> probably
>>>> that English and Angloism has to be central to what we do.
>>>>
>>>> This is the Wikimedia list and when you follow this list, it is people
>>> from
>>>> all over the world that subscribe and comment. It is highly biased by
>>> group
>>>> think and I have observed that there is little willingness to consider
>>>> notions that do not fit in well with the group think.The biggest
>> problem
>>> in
>>>> this is not language but an unwillingness to consider arguments.
>>>>
>>>> It is easy to say "we have to be compassionate" and because of that we
>>> have
>>>> to choose our words well. It is tough to consider that it is not so
>> much
>>>> the words that are used but it is understanding what points are made
>> and
>>>> how they challenge the status quo.
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>        GerardM
>>>>
>>>> On 5 July 2016 at 21:59, Nick Wilson (Quiddity) <[hidden email]
>> <javascript:;>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>> https://medium.com/@mollyclare/taming-the-steamroller-how-to-communicate-compassionately-with-non-native-english-speakers-d95d8d1845a0
>>>>> A good essay.
>>>>>
>>>>> TL;DR: Some detailed examples of how to improve communication and
>>>>> interactions, for the benefit of anyone who uses English as a second
>>>>> language.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Excerpts, to whet [sharpen or stimulate] your appetite:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Phrasal verbs in English can be particularly hard to master. Just
>>> think
>>>>> about “cut off” vs. “cut up” vs. “cut over” vs. “cut in” vs. “cut
>> out”
>>>> vs.
>>>>> “cut down” vs. “cut back” and you’ll see how confusing it can be when
>>> you
>>>>> recommend “cutting back” on something, or asking someone to “cut it
>>> out”.
>>>>> [...]
>>>>>
>>>>>> Make your message very clear, especially your request. This is
>> doubly
>>>>> true for me, because I work with Germans, who are famously direct.
>> The
>>>>> American habit of softening and burying a request is just confusing
>> and
>>>>> pointless to them.
>>>>>
>>>>>> The last thing you and I want to do is overwhelm. We work across
>>>> language
>>>>> barriers, not because it’s glamorous or fun or easy, but because we
>>> care
>>>>> about collaborating with people who are different from us [...]. And
>>>>> non-native speakers are committing to this collaboration even more
>> than
>>>> we
>>>>> are: they’re reaching out to us by working in English. [...]
>>>>>
>>>>> n.b. Yes, there are some over-generalizations and stereotypes in
>> there.
>>>>> It's still good overall, though! ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd like to link it on Metawiki, but I'm not sure where; Any
>>> suggestions?
>>>>> I've gotten (happily) lost in the [[Multilingual]] disambig page, and
>>> the
>>>>> [[Grants:Learning patterns]] pages, but the only place I can find
>> that
>>>>> collects advice like this, is the first section at
>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tech/News/Manual#Guidelines - What
>>> page
>>>>> might I have missed?
>>>>>
>>>>> Quiddity
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>>>> New messages to: [hidden email] <javascript:;>
>>>>> Unsubscribe:
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>>>> <mailto:[hidden email] <javascript:;>
>> ?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>>> New messages to: [hidden email] <javascript:;>
>>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>>> <mailto:[hidden email] <javascript:;>
>> ?subject=unsubscribe>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>> New messages to: [hidden email] <javascript:;>
>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>> <mailto:[hidden email] <javascript:;>
>> ?subject=unsubscribe>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>> New messages to: [hidden email] <javascript:;>
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email] <javascript:;>
>> ?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] How to communicate compassionately with non-native English speakers

Anders Wennersten-2
In reply to this post by Nick Wilson (Quiddity)
Very good and also very accurate.

It reminds it also works the other way. When I was in Australia 1979
discussing a delicate project proposal, I stated  "to resolve this we
need to have ice in the stomach " and getting a big question mark on
everyone's face as a response. Iit seemed this well used Swedish
expression was not as international as I had taken for granted (and they
still make jokes on me for this) .:-)

Anders


Den 2016-07-05 kl. 21:59, skrev Nick Wilson (Quiddity):

> https://medium.com/@mollyclare/taming-the-steamroller-how-to-communicate-compassionately-with-non-native-english-speakers-d95d8d1845a0
> A good essay.
>
> TL;DR: Some detailed examples of how to improve communication and
> interactions, for the benefit of anyone who uses English as a second
> language.
>
>
> Excerpts, to whet [sharpen or stimulate] your appetite:
>
>> Phrasal verbs in English can be particularly hard to master. Just think
> about “cut off” vs. “cut up” vs. “cut over” vs. “cut in” vs. “cut out” vs.
> “cut down” vs. “cut back” and you’ll see how confusing it can be when you
> recommend “cutting back” on something, or asking someone to “cut it out”.
> [...]
>
>> Make your message very clear, especially your request. This is doubly
> true for me, because I work with Germans, who are famously direct. The
> American habit of softening and burying a request is just confusing and
> pointless to them.
>
>> The last thing you and I want to do is overwhelm. We work across language
> barriers, not because it’s glamorous or fun or easy, but because we care
> about collaborating with people who are different from us [...]. And
> non-native speakers are committing to this collaboration even more than we
> are: they’re reaching out to us by working in English. [...]
>
> n.b. Yes, there are some over-generalizations and stereotypes in there.
> It's still good overall, though! ;-)
>
>
> I'd like to link it on Metawiki, but I'm not sure where; Any suggestions?
> I've gotten (happily) lost in the [[Multilingual]] disambig page, and the
> [[Grants:Learning patterns]] pages, but the only place I can find that
> collects advice like this, is the first section at
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tech/News/Manual#Guidelines - What page
> might I have missed?
>
> Quiddity
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] How to communicate compassionately with non-native English speakers

Gerard Meijssen-3
In reply to this post by Bence Damokos
Hoi,
My native language is not English, my culture is not Anglocentric and I
hate to be patronised. If that is best practice, you can enshrine it and
not get a message out, your arguments heard and more importantly not hear
what others are saying.
Thanks,
     GerardM

On 7 July 2016 at 10:32, Bence Damokos <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Gerard,
> I for one do not really understand the point you are making..., especially
> as it relates to best practices in communicating across cultures and
> linguistic backgrounds.
>
>
> Best regards,
> Bence
>
> On Thursday, 7 July 2016, Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Hoi,
> > You forget the other part that is so vital. Compassion is for the weak,
> it
> > puts you in a superior position. The problem is much more in the
> > understanding of what someone else has to say. It is not only about
> > sending, it is as much about receiving. Listening, understanding is where
> > we have a problem. Not so much in the choice of words.
> > Thanks,
> >        GerardM
> >
> > On 7 July 2016 at 09:50, Michael Jahn <[hidden email]
> > <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >
> > > "it is not so much
> > > the words that are used but it is understanding what points are made
> and
> > > how they challenge the status quo."
> > >
> > > --> This may be true, and what we should strive for as a movement. But
> > you
> > > still need words to make those points, and while one may fail to
> > understand
> > > what points are being made, even if all the words are understood
> > properly,
> > > the opposite makes the difference. If you _don't_ understand the words
> in
> > > the first place, i. e. attribute a different meaning than the
> > > speaker/author had intended, you _cannot_ be in a position to
> understand
> > > the points.
> > > So, thanks Nick, for sharing! I like your post very much.
> > > Michael
> > > Am 07.07.2016 9:35 vorm. schrieb "Gerard Meijssen" <
> > > [hidden email] <javascript:;>>:
> > >
> > > > Hoi,
> > > > I have been thinking about what you say. The problem I see is that
> your
> > > > attitude is one where you have to be compassionate for the benefit of
> > > > people for whom English is a second language. What this means is that
> > you
> > > > see yourself as superior because your English is so great and they
> > have a
> > > > problem with English or Anglo culture.The logical conclusion is
> > probably
> > > > that English and Angloism has to be central to what we do.
> > > >
> > > > This is the Wikimedia list and when you follow this list, it is
> people
> > > from
> > > > all over the world that subscribe and comment. It is highly biased by
> > > group
> > > > think and I have observed that there is little willingness to
> consider
> > > > notions that do not fit in well with the group think.The biggest
> > problem
> > > in
> > > > this is not language but an unwillingness to consider arguments.
> > > >
> > > > It is easy to say "we have to be compassionate" and because of that
> we
> > > have
> > > > to choose our words well. It is tough to consider that it is not so
> > much
> > > > the words that are used but it is understanding what points are made
> > and
> > > > how they challenge the status quo.
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >       GerardM
> > > >
> > > > On 5 July 2016 at 21:59, Nick Wilson (Quiddity) <
> [hidden email]
> > <javascript:;>>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://medium.com/@mollyclare/taming-the-steamroller-how-to-communicate-compassionately-with-non-native-english-speakers-d95d8d1845a0
> > > > > A good essay.
> > > > >
> > > > > TL;DR: Some detailed examples of how to improve communication and
> > > > > interactions, for the benefit of anyone who uses English as a
> second
> > > > > language.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Excerpts, to whet [sharpen or stimulate] your appetite:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Phrasal verbs in English can be particularly hard to master. Just
> > > think
> > > > > about “cut off” vs. “cut up” vs. “cut over” vs. “cut in” vs. “cut
> > out”
> > > > vs.
> > > > > “cut down” vs. “cut back” and you’ll see how confusing it can be
> when
> > > you
> > > > > recommend “cutting back” on something, or asking someone to “cut it
> > > out”.
> > > > > [...]
> > > > >
> > > > > > Make your message very clear, especially your request. This is
> > doubly
> > > > > true for me, because I work with Germans, who are famously direct.
> > The
> > > > > American habit of softening and burying a request is just confusing
> > and
> > > > > pointless to them.
> > > > >
> > > > > > The last thing you and I want to do is overwhelm. We work across
> > > > language
> > > > > barriers, not because it’s glamorous or fun or easy, but because we
> > > care
> > > > > about collaborating with people who are different from us [...].
> And
> > > > > non-native speakers are committing to this collaboration even more
> > than
> > > > we
> > > > > are: they’re reaching out to us by working in English. [...]
> > > > >
> > > > > n.b. Yes, there are some over-generalizations and stereotypes in
> > there.
> > > > > It's still good overall, though! ;-)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I'd like to link it on Metawiki, but I'm not sure where; Any
> > > suggestions?
> > > > > I've gotten (happily) lost in the [[Multilingual]] disambig page,
> and
> > > the
> > > > > [[Grants:Learning patterns]] pages, but the only place I can find
> > that
> > > > > collects advice like this, is the first section at
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tech/News/Manual#Guidelines - What
> > > page
> > > > > might I have missed?
> > > > >
> > > > > Quiddity
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > > New messages to: [hidden email] <javascript:;>
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > <mailto:[hidden email] <javascript:;>
> > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > New messages to: [hidden email] <javascript:;>
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email] <javascript:;>
> > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > New messages to: [hidden email] <javascript:;>
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email] <javascript:;>
> > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
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> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > New messages to: [hidden email] <javascript:;>
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email] <javascript:;>
> > ?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
>
> --
> --
> Bence Damokos
>
> Sent from Gmail Mobile
> _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] How to communicate compassionately with non-native English speakers

Jane Darnell
In reply to this post by Anders Wennersten-2
I agree! But what what does an icy stomach mean - to be strong? There are
lots of Dutch expressions that my family has taken over and use regularly
in English now such as "Now comes the monkey out of the sleeve" (revealing
the hidden agenda), "Go your gang" (go ahead) and "That's mustard after the
meal" (too little too late)

On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 10:45 AM, Anders Wennersten <[hidden email]
> wrote:

> Very good and also very accurate.
>
> It reminds it also works the other way. When I was in Australia 1979
> discussing a delicate project proposal, I stated  "to resolve this we need
> to have ice in the stomach " and getting a big question mark on everyone's
> face as a response. Iit seemed this well used Swedish expression was not as
> international as I had taken for granted (and they still make jokes on me
> for this) .:-)
>
> Anders
>
>
> Den 2016-07-05 kl. 21:59, skrev Nick Wilson (Quiddity):
>
>>
>> https://medium.com/@mollyclare/taming-the-steamroller-how-to-communicate-compassionately-with-non-native-english-speakers-d95d8d1845a0
>> A good essay.
>>
>> TL;DR: Some detailed examples of how to improve communication and
>> interactions, for the benefit of anyone who uses English as a second
>> language.
>>
>>
>> Excerpts, to whet [sharpen or stimulate] your appetite:
>>
>> Phrasal verbs in English can be particularly hard to master. Just think
>>>
>> about “cut off” vs. “cut up” vs. “cut over” vs. “cut in” vs. “cut out” vs.
>> “cut down” vs. “cut back” and you’ll see how confusing it can be when you
>> recommend “cutting back” on something, or asking someone to “cut it out”.
>> [...]
>>
>> Make your message very clear, especially your request. This is doubly
>>>
>> true for me, because I work with Germans, who are famously direct. The
>> American habit of softening and burying a request is just confusing and
>> pointless to them.
>>
>> The last thing you and I want to do is overwhelm. We work across language
>>>
>> barriers, not because it’s glamorous or fun or easy, but because we care
>> about collaborating with people who are different from us [...]. And
>> non-native speakers are committing to this collaboration even more than we
>> are: they’re reaching out to us by working in English. [...]
>>
>> n.b. Yes, there are some over-generalizations and stereotypes in there.
>> It's still good overall, though! ;-)
>>
>>
>> I'd like to link it on Metawiki, but I'm not sure where; Any suggestions?
>> I've gotten (happily) lost in the [[Multilingual]] disambig page, and the
>> [[Grants:Learning patterns]] pages, but the only place I can find that
>> collects advice like this, is the first section at
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tech/News/Manual#Guidelines - What page
>> might I have missed?
>>
>> Quiddity
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>> New messages to: [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] How to communicate compassionately with non-native English speakers

Johan Jönsson
2016-07-07 11:05 GMT+02:00 Jane Darnell <[hidden email]>:

> I agree! But what what does an icy stomach mean - to be strong?
>

In Swedish, to have ice in your stomach (ha is i magen) means to act slowly
and deliberately, not rushing ahead without thinking everything through.
And yes, keeping the idioms of your native language out of your English is
one of the more challenging communication aspects for non-native speakers,
something we always have to be aware of.

//Johan Jönsson
--
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] How to communicate compassionately with non-native English speakers

Peter Southwood
In reply to this post by Gerard Meijssen-3
Gerard,
Since you appear to have little time for compassion, I will bluntly tell you what many people here have appeared to be trying to get through to you in more diplomatic language, and have made allowances for the fact that English is not apparently your home language.
I/We find you unnecessarily blunt, rude and abrasive in your communication. I don’t know if this is intentional, but gentle hints do not seem to get through. We tolerate your language most of the time because we value your input, but we do not like it.
I am not going to ask you to change your ways as it may not be possible, or you may not want to do so. It is your choice.
Cheers,
Peter

-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Gerard Meijssen
Sent: Thursday, 07 July 2016 10:00 AM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] How to communicate compassionately with non-native English speakers

Hoi,
You forget the other part that is so vital. Compassion is for the weak, it puts you in a superior position. The problem is much more in the understanding of what someone else has to say. It is not only about sending, it is as much about receiving. Listening, understanding is where we have a problem. Not so much in the choice of words.
Thanks,
       GerardM

On 7 July 2016 at 09:50, Michael Jahn <[hidden email]> wrote:

> "it is not so much
> the words that are used but it is understanding what points are made
> and how they challenge the status quo."
>
> --> This may be true, and what we should strive for as a movement. But
> --> you
> still need words to make those points, and while one may fail to
> understand what points are being made, even if all the words are
> understood properly, the opposite makes the difference. If you _don't_
> understand the words in the first place, i. e. attribute a different
> meaning than the speaker/author had intended, you _cannot_ be in a
> position to understand the points.
> So, thanks Nick, for sharing! I like your post very much.
> Michael
> Am 07.07.2016 9:35 vorm. schrieb "Gerard Meijssen" <
> [hidden email]>:
>
> > Hoi,
> > I have been thinking about what you say. The problem I see is that
> > your attitude is one where you have to be compassionate for the
> > benefit of people for whom English is a second language. What this
> > means is that you see yourself as superior because your English is
> > so great and they have a problem with English or Anglo culture.The
> > logical conclusion is probably that English and Angloism has to be central to what we do.
> >
> > This is the Wikimedia list and when you follow this list, it is
> > people
> from
> > all over the world that subscribe and comment. It is highly biased
> > by
> group
> > think and I have observed that there is little willingness to
> > consider notions that do not fit in well with the group think.The
> > biggest problem
> in
> > this is not language but an unwillingness to consider arguments.
> >
> > It is easy to say "we have to be compassionate" and because of that
> > we
> have
> > to choose our words well. It is tough to consider that it is not so
> > much the words that are used but it is understanding what points are
> > made and how they challenge the status quo.
> > Thanks,
> >       GerardM
> >
> > On 5 July 2016 at 21:59, Nick Wilson (Quiddity)
> > <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://medium.com/@mollyclare/taming-the-steamroller-how-to-communica
> te-compassionately-with-non-native-english-speakers-d95d8d1845a0
> > > A good essay.
> > >
> > > TL;DR: Some detailed examples of how to improve communication and
> > > interactions, for the benefit of anyone who uses English as a
> > > second language.
> > >
> > >
> > > Excerpts, to whet [sharpen or stimulate] your appetite:
> > >
> > > > Phrasal verbs in English can be particularly hard to master.
> > > > Just
> think
> > > about “cut off” vs. “cut up” vs. “cut over” vs. “cut in” vs. “cut out”
> > vs.
> > > “cut down” vs. “cut back” and you’ll see how confusing it can be
> > > when
> you
> > > recommend “cutting back” on something, or asking someone to “cut
> > > it
> out”.
> > > [...]
> > >
> > > > Make your message very clear, especially your request. This is
> > > > doubly
> > > true for me, because I work with Germans, who are famously direct.
> > > The American habit of softening and burying a request is just
> > > confusing and pointless to them.
> > >
> > > > The last thing you and I want to do is overwhelm. We work across
> > language
> > > barriers, not because it’s glamorous or fun or easy, but because
> > > we
> care
> > > about collaborating with people who are different from us [...].
> > > And non-native speakers are committing to this collaboration even
> > > more than
> > we
> > > are: they’re reaching out to us by working in English. [...]
> > >
> > > n.b. Yes, there are some over-generalizations and stereotypes in there.
> > > It's still good overall, though! ;-)
> > >
> > >
> > > I'd like to link it on Metawiki, but I'm not sure where; Any
> suggestions?
> > > I've gotten (happily) lost in the [[Multilingual]] disambig page,
> > > and
> the
> > > [[Grants:Learning patterns]] pages, but the only place I can find
> > > that collects advice like this, is the first section at
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tech/News/Manual#Guidelines - What
> page
> > > might I have missed?
> > >
> > > Quiddity
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe:
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscrib
> > > e>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] How to communicate compassionately with non-native English speakers

rupert THURNER-2
Lol Peter you hullarious, I thought this thread is exactly about how you
could put the style Gerard writes his emails into his cultural context :)

Rupert
On Jul 7, 2016 15:19, "Peter Southwood" <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Gerard,
> Since you appear to have little time for compassion, I will bluntly tell
> you what many people here have appeared to be trying to get through to you
> in more diplomatic language, and have made allowances for the fact that
> English is not apparently your home language.
> I/We find you unnecessarily blunt, rude and abrasive in your
> communication. I don’t know if this is intentional, but gentle hints do not
> seem to get through. We tolerate your language most of the time because we
> value your input, but we do not like it.
> I am not going to ask you to change your ways as it may not be possible,
> or you may not want to do so. It is your choice.
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of Gerard Meijssen
> Sent: Thursday, 07 July 2016 10:00 AM
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] How to communicate compassionately with
> non-native English speakers
>
> Hoi,
> You forget the other part that is so vital. Compassion is for the weak, it
> puts you in a superior position. The problem is much more in the
> understanding of what someone else has to say. It is not only about
> sending, it is as much about receiving. Listening, understanding is where
> we have a problem. Not so much in the choice of words.
> Thanks,
>        GerardM
>
> On 7 July 2016 at 09:50, Michael Jahn <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > "it is not so much
> > the words that are used but it is understanding what points are made
> > and how they challenge the status quo."
> >
> > --> This may be true, and what we should strive for as a movement. But
> > --> you
> > still need words to make those points, and while one may fail to
> > understand what points are being made, even if all the words are
> > understood properly, the opposite makes the difference. If you _don't_
> > understand the words in the first place, i. e. attribute a different
> > meaning than the speaker/author had intended, you _cannot_ be in a
> > position to understand the points.
> > So, thanks Nick, for sharing! I like your post very much.
> > Michael
> > Am 07.07.2016 9:35 vorm. schrieb "Gerard Meijssen" <
> > [hidden email]>:
> >
> > > Hoi,
> > > I have been thinking about what you say. The problem I see is that
> > > your attitude is one where you have to be compassionate for the
> > > benefit of people for whom English is a second language. What this
> > > means is that you see yourself as superior because your English is
> > > so great and they have a problem with English or Anglo culture.The
> > > logical conclusion is probably that English and Angloism has to be
> central to what we do.
> > >
> > > This is the Wikimedia list and when you follow this list, it is
> > > people
> > from
> > > all over the world that subscribe and comment. It is highly biased
> > > by
> > group
> > > think and I have observed that there is little willingness to
> > > consider notions that do not fit in well with the group think.The
> > > biggest problem
> > in
> > > this is not language but an unwillingness to consider arguments.
> > >
> > > It is easy to say "we have to be compassionate" and because of that
> > > we
> > have
> > > to choose our words well. It is tough to consider that it is not so
> > > much the words that are used but it is understanding what points are
> > > made and how they challenge the status quo.
> > > Thanks,
> > >       GerardM
> > >
> > > On 5 July 2016 at 21:59, Nick Wilson (Quiddity)
> > > <[hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > https://medium.com/@mollyclare/taming-the-steamroller-how-to-communica
> > te-compassionately-with-non-native-english-speakers-d95d8d1845a0
> > > > A good essay.
> > > >
> > > > TL;DR: Some detailed examples of how to improve communication and
> > > > interactions, for the benefit of anyone who uses English as a
> > > > second language.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Excerpts, to whet [sharpen or stimulate] your appetite:
> > > >
> > > > > Phrasal verbs in English can be particularly hard to master.
> > > > > Just
> > think
> > > > about “cut off” vs. “cut up” vs. “cut over” vs. “cut in” vs. “cut
> out”
> > > vs.
> > > > “cut down” vs. “cut back” and you’ll see how confusing it can be
> > > > when
> > you
> > > > recommend “cutting back” on something, or asking someone to “cut
> > > > it
> > out”.
> > > > [...]
> > > >
> > > > > Make your message very clear, especially your request. This is
> > > > > doubly
> > > > true for me, because I work with Germans, who are famously direct.
> > > > The American habit of softening and burying a request is just
> > > > confusing and pointless to them.
> > > >
> > > > > The last thing you and I want to do is overwhelm. We work across
> > > language
> > > > barriers, not because it’s glamorous or fun or easy, but because
> > > > we
> > care
> > > > about collaborating with people who are different from us [...].
> > > > And non-native speakers are committing to this collaboration even
> > > > more than
> > > we
> > > > are: they’re reaching out to us by working in English. [...]
> > > >
> > > > n.b. Yes, there are some over-generalizations and stereotypes in
> there.
> > > > It's still good overall, though! ;-)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I'd like to link it on Metawiki, but I'm not sure where; Any
> > suggestions?
> > > > I've gotten (happily) lost in the [[Multilingual]] disambig page,
> > > > and
> > the
> > > > [[Grants:Learning patterns]] pages, but the only place I can find
> > > > that collects advice like this, is the first section at
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tech/News/Manual#Guidelines - What
> > page
> > > > might I have missed?
> > > >
> > > > Quiddity
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscrib
> > > > e>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe:
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
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> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] How to communicate compassionately with non-native English speakers

Nick Wilson (Quiddity)
In reply to this post by Yusuke Matsubara
On Wed, Jul 6, 2016 at 5:11 PM, Yusuke Matsubara <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Perhaps https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Writing_clearly as well?
>
>
Perfect, thanks! I had already watchlisted that at some point, but I didn't
find it whilst searching. I'll look around later, to see where else that
page could be usefully linked from.


On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 5:05 AM, Birgit Müller
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Nick, thanks for sharing! This is really awesome. (Or should I write:
> "This
> > is helpful" to fit into the German stereotype? :D)
>

Haha! Yes, at Wikimania, various people from a few Northern European
countries commented on the habit in some cultures (particularly North
American) of frequently using superlatives. The tangential example that I
immediately thought of, is the song from The Lego Movie, "Everything Is
Awesome".


> Link it on Meta: I found
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Best_practices_in_giving_a_Wikipedia_presentation
> > and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Presentations, but both pages seem to
> be a
> > bit outdated/not visited very often.
> >
> > Might also make sense to link it on the general conference/Hackathon
> pages
> > like
> >
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Hackathons/Hackathon_tips_for_organizers#Communications
> > ?
>

I was initially thinking of it more as a guide to clearly-written (and
empathetically-read) communication, but yes, presentations are also
relevant. Maybe we should just interlink the [[Writing clearly]] page, from
one or more of those.


On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 12:34 AM, Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hoi, I have been thinking about what you say. The problem I see is that
> your attitude is one where you have to be compassionate for the benefit of
> people for whom English is a second language. [...]
>

I think I understand what you mean, but I'd suggest that this is a perfect
example of what the article is about.
You have focused on the word-choice of "compassion", and a specific
definition of that word. We could instead, interpret the intent of the
author more towards the definition of "empathy" or "consideration". The
article could (should! AGF!) instead be more generously interpreted, to be
about cross-language communication in general, and to understand that it
was simply written by someone who uses English as their primary language
hence it approaches the issue from that perspective.

I.e. The same advice all applies if you work/communicate in a group that
uses [Japanese] as the primary language, but some of the participants are
not native [Japanese] speakers.

So, I'd reword your conclusion, as "we have to be empathetic (or
considerate) towards people for whom our native language (whatever that may
be) is not their own."

It is tough to consider that it is not so much the words that are used but
> it is understanding what points are made
>

Exactly! :-)  We should be careful about spending too much effort arguing
about the nuances of word choice, especially in informal discussions
(versus drafting a policy or writing code or similar, where word-choice can
be crucial!), and instead try to interpret what other people are
saying/writing, with an assumption of positive intent.

Hope that helps,
Quiddity / Nick
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] How to communicate compassionately with non-native English speakers

Delphine Ménard
In reply to this post by Gerard Meijssen-3
I disagree in so many ways with your words that I don't even know
where to start. Compassion is not trying to put people in a lower
position, or trying to put yourself in a higher position. It never has
and never will be. Compassion is about caring for others and in that
particular instance, making sure you get your point across. Wiktionary
says it all: "Etymology: From Middle English, from Old French, from
Late Latin compassio ‎(“sympathy”), from compati, past participle
compassus ‎(“to suffer together with”), from Latin com- ‎(“together”)
+ pati ‎(“to suffer”); see passion."

I do not know any world where compassion is a bad thing. And as a
French living in Germany and working every day in English, I can tell
you that the article Nick pointed to has excellent tips to make sure
that people around you understand you, and ensure that communication
happens in the best possible way.  The choice of words DOES matter.

And your point "Listening, understanding is where we have a problem"
is probably true on many levels. And if it is, I'd find it interesting
if you considered taking a piece of your own advice and reflected on
the way you address the people on this list.

Best,

Delphine

On 7 July 2016 at 10:00, Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hoi,
> You forget the other part that is so vital. Compassion is for the weak, it
> puts you in a superior position. The problem is much more in the
> understanding of what someone else has to say. It is not only about
> sending, it is as much about receiving. Listening, understanding is where
> we have a problem. Not so much in the choice of words.
> Thanks,
>        GerardM
>
> On 7 July 2016 at 09:50, Michael Jahn <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> "it is not so much
>> the words that are used but it is understanding what points are made and
>> how they challenge the status quo."
>>
>> --> This may be true, and what we should strive for as a movement. But you
>> still need words to make those points, and while one may fail to understand
>> what points are being made, even if all the words are understood properly,
>> the opposite makes the difference. If you _don't_ understand the words in
>> the first place, i. e. attribute a different meaning than the
>> speaker/author had intended, you _cannot_ be in a position to understand
>> the points.
>> So, thanks Nick, for sharing! I like your post very much.
>> Michael
>> Am 07.07.2016 9:35 vorm. schrieb "Gerard Meijssen" <
>> [hidden email]>:
>>
>> > Hoi,
>> > I have been thinking about what you say. The problem I see is that your
>> > attitude is one where you have to be compassionate for the benefit of
>> > people for whom English is a second language. What this means is that you
>> > see yourself as superior because your English is so great and they have a
>> > problem with English or Anglo culture.The logical conclusion is probably
>> > that English and Angloism has to be central to what we do.
>> >
>> > This is the Wikimedia list and when you follow this list, it is people
>> from
>> > all over the world that subscribe and comment. It is highly biased by
>> group
>> > think and I have observed that there is little willingness to consider
>> > notions that do not fit in well with the group think.The biggest problem
>> in
>> > this is not language but an unwillingness to consider arguments.
>> >
>> > It is easy to say "we have to be compassionate" and because of that we
>> have
>> > to choose our words well. It is tough to consider that it is not so much
>> > the words that are used but it is understanding what points are made and
>> > how they challenge the status quo.
>> > Thanks,
>> >       GerardM
>> >
>> > On 5 July 2016 at 21:59, Nick Wilson (Quiddity) <[hidden email]>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> https://medium.com/@mollyclare/taming-the-steamroller-how-to-communicate-compassionately-with-non-native-english-speakers-d95d8d1845a0
>> > > A good essay.
>> > >
>> > > TL;DR: Some detailed examples of how to improve communication and
>> > > interactions, for the benefit of anyone who uses English as a second
>> > > language.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Excerpts, to whet [sharpen or stimulate] your appetite:
>> > >
>> > > > Phrasal verbs in English can be particularly hard to master. Just
>> think
>> > > about “cut off” vs. “cut up” vs. “cut over” vs. “cut in” vs. “cut out”
>> > vs.
>> > > “cut down” vs. “cut back” and you’ll see how confusing it can be when
>> you
>> > > recommend “cutting back” on something, or asking someone to “cut it
>> out”.
>> > > [...]
>> > >
>> > > > Make your message very clear, especially your request. This is doubly
>> > > true for me, because I work with Germans, who are famously direct. The
>> > > American habit of softening and burying a request is just confusing and
>> > > pointless to them.
>> > >
>> > > > The last thing you and I want to do is overwhelm. We work across
>> > language
>> > > barriers, not because it’s glamorous or fun or easy, but because we
>> care
>> > > about collaborating with people who are different from us [...]. And
>> > > non-native speakers are committing to this collaboration even more than
>> > we
>> > > are: they’re reaching out to us by working in English. [...]
>> > >
>> > > n.b. Yes, there are some over-generalizations and stereotypes in there.
>> > > It's still good overall, though! ;-)
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > I'd like to link it on Metawiki, but I'm not sure where; Any
>> suggestions?
>> > > I've gotten (happily) lost in the [[Multilingual]] disambig page, and
>> the
>> > > [[Grants:Learning patterns]] pages, but the only place I can find that
>> > > collects advice like this, is the first section at
>> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tech/News/Manual#Guidelines - What
>> page
>> > > might I have missed?
>> > >
>> > > Quiddity
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
>> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] How to communicate compassionately with non-native English speakers

Gerard Meijssen-3
Hoi,
What you say is how it works for you. At the same time you deny how it is
experienced by others. I do not want your compassion. What I want is for
people to use logic in their arguments and use their logic carefully.

In a previous mail you said that you think I consider people dogs that have
to do my bidding. I was deeply offended by that. This makes you as far as I
am concerned the wrong person to tell me what to do and the last person I
care to hear from.

When you "suffer together with", it is not you who does the suffering, it
is the other. What we need is no suffering but listening to the points that
are made and addressing those. As long as you mistake the delivery for the
message you fail.
Thanks,
      GerardM

On 8 July 2016 at 11:23, Delphine Ménard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I disagree in so many ways with your words that I don't even know
> where to start. Compassion is not trying to put people in a lower
> position, or trying to put yourself in a higher position. It never has
> and never will be. Compassion is about caring for others and in that
> particular instance, making sure you get your point across. Wiktionary
> says it all: "Etymology: From Middle English, from Old French, from
> Late Latin compassio ‎(“sympathy”), from compati, past participle
> compassus ‎(“to suffer together with”), from Latin com- ‎(“together”)
> + pati ‎(“to suffer”); see passion."
>
> I do not know any world where compassion is a bad thing. And as a
> French living in Germany and working every day in English, I can tell
> you that the article Nick pointed to has excellent tips to make sure
> that people around you understand you, and ensure that communication
> happens in the best possible way.  The choice of words DOES matter.
>
> And your point "Listening, understanding is where we have a problem"
> is probably true on many levels. And if it is, I'd find it interesting
> if you considered taking a piece of your own advice and reflected on
> the way you address the people on this list.
>
> Best,
>
> Delphine
>
> On 7 July 2016 at 10:00, Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > Hoi,
> > You forget the other part that is so vital. Compassion is for the weak,
> it
> > puts you in a superior position. The problem is much more in the
> > understanding of what someone else has to say. It is not only about
> > sending, it is as much about receiving. Listening, understanding is where
> > we have a problem. Not so much in the choice of words.
> > Thanks,
> >        GerardM
> >
> > On 7 July 2016 at 09:50, Michael Jahn <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> "it is not so much
> >> the words that are used but it is understanding what points are made and
> >> how they challenge the status quo."
> >>
> >> --> This may be true, and what we should strive for as a movement. But
> you
> >> still need words to make those points, and while one may fail to
> understand
> >> what points are being made, even if all the words are understood
> properly,
> >> the opposite makes the difference. If you _don't_ understand the words
> in
> >> the first place, i. e. attribute a different meaning than the
> >> speaker/author had intended, you _cannot_ be in a position to understand
> >> the points.
> >> So, thanks Nick, for sharing! I like your post very much.
> >> Michael
> >> Am 07.07.2016 9:35 vorm. schrieb "Gerard Meijssen" <
> >> [hidden email]>:
> >>
> >> > Hoi,
> >> > I have been thinking about what you say. The problem I see is that
> your
> >> > attitude is one where you have to be compassionate for the benefit of
> >> > people for whom English is a second language. What this means is that
> you
> >> > see yourself as superior because your English is so great and they
> have a
> >> > problem with English or Anglo culture.The logical conclusion is
> probably
> >> > that English and Angloism has to be central to what we do.
> >> >
> >> > This is the Wikimedia list and when you follow this list, it is people
> >> from
> >> > all over the world that subscribe and comment. It is highly biased by
> >> group
> >> > think and I have observed that there is little willingness to consider
> >> > notions that do not fit in well with the group think.The biggest
> problem
> >> in
> >> > this is not language but an unwillingness to consider arguments.
> >> >
> >> > It is easy to say "we have to be compassionate" and because of that we
> >> have
> >> > to choose our words well. It is tough to consider that it is not so
> much
> >> > the words that are used but it is understanding what points are made
> and
> >> > how they challenge the status quo.
> >> > Thanks,
> >> >       GerardM
> >> >
> >> > On 5 July 2016 at 21:59, Nick Wilson (Quiddity) <
> [hidden email]>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >>
> https://medium.com/@mollyclare/taming-the-steamroller-how-to-communicate-compassionately-with-non-native-english-speakers-d95d8d1845a0
> >> > > A good essay.
> >> > >
> >> > > TL;DR: Some detailed examples of how to improve communication and
> >> > > interactions, for the benefit of anyone who uses English as a second
> >> > > language.
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > Excerpts, to whet [sharpen or stimulate] your appetite:
> >> > >
> >> > > > Phrasal verbs in English can be particularly hard to master. Just
> >> think
> >> > > about “cut off” vs. “cut up” vs. “cut over” vs. “cut in” vs. “cut
> out”
> >> > vs.
> >> > > “cut down” vs. “cut back” and you’ll see how confusing it can be
> when
> >> you
> >> > > recommend “cutting back” on something, or asking someone to “cut it
> >> out”.
> >> > > [...]
> >> > >
> >> > > > Make your message very clear, especially your request. This is
> doubly
> >> > > true for me, because I work with Germans, who are famously direct.
> The
> >> > > American habit of softening and burying a request is just confusing
> and
> >> > > pointless to them.
> >> > >
> >> > > > The last thing you and I want to do is overwhelm. We work across
> >> > language
> >> > > barriers, not because it’s glamorous or fun or easy, but because we
> >> care
> >> > > about collaborating with people who are different from us [...]. And
> >> > > non-native speakers are committing to this collaboration even more
> than
> >> > we
> >> > > are: they’re reaching out to us by working in English. [...]
> >> > >
> >> > > n.b. Yes, there are some over-generalizations and stereotypes in
> there.
> >> > > It's still good overall, though! ;-)
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > I'd like to link it on Metawiki, but I'm not sure where; Any
> >> suggestions?
> >> > > I've gotten (happily) lost in the [[Multilingual]] disambig page,
> and
> >> the
> >> > > [[Grants:Learning patterns]] pages, but the only place I can find
> that
> >> > > collects advice like this, is the first section at
> >> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tech/News/Manual#Guidelines - What
> >> page
> >> > > might I have missed?
> >> > >
> >> > > Quiddity
> >> > > _______________________________________________
> >> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> >> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> >> > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> >> > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
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> ,
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> >>
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>
>
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>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] How to communicate compassionately with non-native English speakers

Delphine Ménard
On 8 July 2016 at 14:47, Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hoi,
> What you say is how it works for you. At the same time you deny how it is
> experienced by others. I do not want your compassion. What I want is for
> people to use logic in their arguments and use their logic carefully.

Fair enough, sorry if my point came across that way, it was definitely
not my intention to deny anything.

Please accept my apologies for offending you.

Best,

Delphine

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] How to communicate compassionately with non-native English speakers

Isla Haddow-Flood-2
Delphine,

I don't think Gerard was responding to you but an earlier comment about his
lack of compassion in the way he engages with people on this list no matter
what their home language.

I agree with your earlier post. I work with 2nd and 3rd and often 4th or
8th language speakers everyday and it is important that the meaning is
found through the words - from both sides of the conversation. I am always
aware that their English is far, far better than my non-existent Ebo,
Xhosa, German or Shona. ;-)

And I hope that more idioms and expressions come through on this list ... I
love them!

Warmest
Isla

On Friday, 8 July 2016, Delphine Ménard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 8 July 2016 at 14:47, Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]
> <javascript:;>> wrote:
> > Hoi,
> > What you say is how it works for you. At the same time you deny how it is
> > experienced by others. I do not want your compassion. What I want is for
> > people to use logic in their arguments and use their logic carefully.
>
> Fair enough, sorry if my point came across that way, it was definitely
> not my intention to deny anything.
>
> Please accept my apologies for offending you.
>
> Best,
>
> Delphine
>
> --
> @notafish
>
> NB. This gmail address is used for mailing lists. Personal emails will get
> lost.
> Intercultural musings: Ceci n'est pas une endive -
> http://blog.notanendive.org
> Photos with simple eyes: notaphoto - http://photo.notafish.org
>
> _______________________________________________
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