[Wikimedia-l] Introducing the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list

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[Wikimedia-l] Introducing the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list

Carlos M. Colina
Dear all,

On behalf of the Affiliations Committe, I am pleased to introduce the
launch of the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list, which is basically a
place for all the affiliates (chapters, thematic organizations, user
groups) to discuss issues related to affiliates, make announcements to
other affiliates, and collaborate on activities and community-wide
events. The idea is to help facilitate the dialogue affiliates across
our movement, plus collaborative discussions like community-wide
activities, joint edit-a-thons, regional conferences, blog/report posts,
or other communications from affiliates.

Each Wikimedia movement affiliate is allocated three spots on the
mailing list. All affiliates may contact the Affiliations Committee to
request additional spots if needed.

Please find a bit more information on Meta:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_movement_affiliates/Affiliates_mailing_list 
and do not hesitate contacting us if you have further questions.

Regards,
Carlos
--
"*Jülüjain wane mmakat* ein kapülain tü alijunakalirua jee wayuukanairua
junain ekerolaa alümüin supüshuwayale etijaanaka. Ayatashi waya junain."
Carlos M. Colina
Socio, A.C. Wikimedia Venezuela | RIF J-40129321-2 |
www.wikimedia.org.ve <http://wikimedia.org.ve>
Chair, Wikimedia Foundation Affiliations Committee
Phone: +972-52-4869915
Twitter: @maor_x
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Introducing the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list

Pine W
Hi Carlos,

Can you clarify how this list relates to the existing chapters mailing
list? (Also, please see the discussion at
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Affiliates_Network#Mailing_list_request_for_comment
).

Thanks,

Pine

On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 2:04 PM, Carlos M. Colina <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> On behalf of the Affiliations Committe, I am pleased to introduce the
> launch of the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list, which is basically a place
> for all the affiliates (chapters, thematic organizations, user groups) to
> discuss issues related to affiliates, make announcements to other
> affiliates, and collaborate on activities and community-wide events. The
> idea is to help facilitate the dialogue affiliates across our movement,
> plus collaborative discussions like community-wide activities, joint
> edit-a-thons, regional conferences, blog/report posts, or other
> communications from affiliates.
>
> Each Wikimedia movement affiliate is allocated three spots on the mailing
> list. All affiliates may contact the Affiliations Committee to request
> additional spots if needed.
>
> Please find a bit more information on Meta:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_movement_affiliates/Affiliates_mailing_list
> and do not hesitate contacting us if you have further questions.
>
> Regards,
> Carlos
> --
> "*Jülüjain wane mmakat* ein kapülain tü alijunakalirua jee wayuukanairua
> junain ekerolaa alümüin supüshuwayale etijaanaka. Ayatashi waya junain."
> Carlos M. Colina
> Socio, A.C. Wikimedia Venezuela | RIF J-40129321-2 | www.wikimedia.org.ve
> <http://wikimedia.org.ve>
> Chair, Wikimedia Foundation Affiliations Committee
> Phone: +972-52-4869915
> Twitter: @maor_x
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Introducing the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list

Neil Patel Quinn
Carlos,

Is there a reason why the list is private? The topics you mentioned—general
affiliate discussion, regional conferences, blog post announcements, and so
on—don't seem particularly sensitive. (I'm just curious. My WMF role has
nothing to do with affiliates and I wouldn't subscribe to the list even if
it were public.)

Thanks!

On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 2:19 PM, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Carlos,
>
> Can you clarify how this list relates to the existing chapters mailing
> list? (Also, please see the discussion at
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Affiliates_Network#Mailing_list_request_for_comment
> ).
>
> Thanks,
>
> Pine
>
> On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 2:04 PM, Carlos M. Colina <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Dear all,
> >
> > On behalf of the Affiliations Committe, I am pleased to introduce the
> > launch of the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list, which is basically a
> place
> > for all the affiliates (chapters, thematic organizations, user groups) to
> > discuss issues related to affiliates, make announcements to other
> > affiliates, and collaborate on activities and community-wide events. The
> > idea is to help facilitate the dialogue affiliates across our movement,
> > plus collaborative discussions like community-wide activities, joint
> > edit-a-thons, regional conferences, blog/report posts, or other
> > communications from affiliates.
> >
> > Each Wikimedia movement affiliate is allocated three spots on the mailing
> > list. All affiliates may contact the Affiliations Committee to request
> > additional spots if needed.
> >
> > Please find a bit more information on Meta:
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_movement_affiliates/Affiliates_mailing_list
> > and do not hesitate contacting us if you have further questions.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Carlos
> > --
> > "*Jülüjain wane mmakat* ein kapülain tü alijunakalirua jee wayuukanairua
> > junain ekerolaa alümüin supüshuwayale etijaanaka. Ayatashi waya junain."
> > Carlos M. Colina
> > Socio, A.C. Wikimedia Venezuela | RIF J-40129321-2 |
> www.wikimedia.org.ve
> > <http://wikimedia.org.ve>
> > Chair, Wikimedia Foundation Affiliations Committee
> > Phone: +972-52-4869915
> > Twitter: @maor_x
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>



--
Neil P. Quinn <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Neil_P._Quinn-WMF>,
product analyst
Wikimedia Foundation
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Introducing the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list

Gregory Varnum-2
In reply to this post by Pine W
Hey Pine,

As you know, AffCom started looking into this list after some discussions with affiliates in Berlin, Wikimania, and at that page you referred to. We did talk with that list’s moderators about potentially reusing that list (largely why the creation of this list took awhile). However, ultimately, we decided to proceed with the creation of this list.

The old list is not on Wikimedia servers or officially connected to AffCom, so I cannot speak to its future. However, it has becoming increasingly inactive, is limited to chapters (so excludes a majority of our affiliates), and not something we have promoted recently. My personal hope is that this new broader list replaces that one over time, but that is not something we can “force” as it’s not a resource we officially help manage.

-greg (User:Varnent)
Vice Chair, Affiliations Committee


> On Oct 15, 2015, at 5:19 PM, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi Carlos,
>
> Can you clarify how this list relates to the existing chapters mailing
> list? (Also, please see the discussion at
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Affiliates_Network#Mailing_list_request_for_comment
> ).
>
> Thanks,
>
> Pine
>
> On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 2:04 PM, Carlos M. Colina <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> On behalf of the Affiliations Committe, I am pleased to introduce the
>> launch of the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list, which is basically a place
>> for all the affiliates (chapters, thematic organizations, user groups) to
>> discuss issues related to affiliates, make announcements to other
>> affiliates, and collaborate on activities and community-wide events. The
>> idea is to help facilitate the dialogue affiliates across our movement,
>> plus collaborative discussions like community-wide activities, joint
>> edit-a-thons, regional conferences, blog/report posts, or other
>> communications from affiliates.
>>
>> Each Wikimedia movement affiliate is allocated three spots on the mailing
>> list. All affiliates may contact the Affiliations Committee to request
>> additional spots if needed.
>>
>> Please find a bit more information on Meta:
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_movement_affiliates/Affiliates_mailing_list
>> and do not hesitate contacting us if you have further questions.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Carlos
>> --
>> "*Jülüjain wane mmakat* ein kapülain tü alijunakalirua jee wayuukanairua
>> junain ekerolaa alümüin supüshuwayale etijaanaka. Ayatashi waya junain."
>> Carlos M. Colina
>> Socio, A.C. Wikimedia Venezuela | RIF J-40129321-2 | www.wikimedia.org.ve
>> <http://wikimedia.org.ve>
>> Chair, Wikimedia Foundation Affiliations Committee
>> Phone: +972-52-4869915
>> Twitter: @maor_x
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>> [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>


_______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Introducing the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list

Pine W
Got it. Thanks Varnent.

Regarding the privacy question: I'm sort of thinking that if we really want
to keep the new list private for legal or other reasons, it should be run
outside of WMF servers like the chapters list is. On the other hand, if the
purpose of the new list is to facilitate discussion among affiliates in a
smaller and less public group while still being open to WMF employees to a
limited degree, then the hosting proposed here makes sense. Personally, I
get the sense that the affiliate and WMF relationships have generally
(there are exceptions) warmed a bit over the past couple of years as
affiliate governance and leadership have evolved and as WMF's evaluation
capacity has improved, so I'm fine with the new design. Thanks for working
on this.

Pine
On Oct 15, 2015 8:55 PM, "Gregory Varnum" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hey Pine,
>
> As you know, AffCom started looking into this list after some discussions
> with affiliates in Berlin, Wikimania, and at that page you referred to. We
> did talk with that list’s moderators about potentially reusing that list
> (largely why the creation of this list took awhile). However, ultimately,
> we decided to proceed with the creation of this list.
>
> The old list is not on Wikimedia servers or officially connected to
> AffCom, so I cannot speak to its future. However, it has becoming
> increasingly inactive, is limited to chapters (so excludes a majority of
> our affiliates), and not something we have promoted recently. My personal
> hope is that this new broader list replaces that one over time, but that is
> not something we can “force” as it’s not a resource we officially help
> manage.
>
> -greg (User:Varnent)
> Vice Chair, Affiliations Committee
>
>
> > On Oct 15, 2015, at 5:19 PM, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Carlos,
> >
> > Can you clarify how this list relates to the existing chapters mailing
> > list? (Also, please see the discussion at
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Affiliates_Network#Mailing_list_request_for_comment
> > ).
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Pine
> >
> > On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 2:04 PM, Carlos M. Colina <
> [hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Dear all,
> >>
> >> On behalf of the Affiliations Committe, I am pleased to introduce the
> >> launch of the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list, which is basically a
> place
> >> for all the affiliates (chapters, thematic organizations, user groups)
> to
> >> discuss issues related to affiliates, make announcements to other
> >> affiliates, and collaborate on activities and community-wide events. The
> >> idea is to help facilitate the dialogue affiliates across our movement,
> >> plus collaborative discussions like community-wide activities, joint
> >> edit-a-thons, regional conferences, blog/report posts, or other
> >> communications from affiliates.
> >>
> >> Each Wikimedia movement affiliate is allocated three spots on the
> mailing
> >> list. All affiliates may contact the Affiliations Committee to request
> >> additional spots if needed.
> >>
> >> Please find a bit more information on Meta:
> >>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_movement_affiliates/Affiliates_mailing_list
> >> and do not hesitate contacting us if you have further questions.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Carlos
> >> --
> >> "*Jülüjain wane mmakat* ein kapülain tü alijunakalirua jee wayuukanairua
> >> junain ekerolaa alümüin supüshuwayale etijaanaka. Ayatashi waya junain."
> >> Carlos M. Colina
> >> Socio, A.C. Wikimedia Venezuela | RIF J-40129321-2 |
> www.wikimedia.org.ve
> >> <http://wikimedia.org.ve>
> >> Chair, Wikimedia Foundation Affiliations Committee
> >> Phone: +972-52-4869915
> >> Twitter: @maor_x
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> >> [hidden email]
> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> >> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
_______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Introducing the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list

Gregory Varnum-2
In reply to this post by Neil Patel Quinn
Hey Neil,

I’ll let Carlos add his thoughts, but basically, this was a consistent request from affiliates. So the short answer is that the target audience requested it, and we want them to use it. :) The page that Pine mentioned (https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Affiliates_Network#Mailing_list_request_for_comment <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Affiliates_Network#Mailing_list_request_for_comment>) is one example of where this request came up.

Slightly longer answer, and I am interpreting and summarizing what I heard from affiliates, is that they would like a space to privately discuss issues - sometimes sensitive in nature - with each other. As Carlos mentioned, the first mentioned goal is a space for affiliates to discuss issues specific to their work. I think the concern is that if it was up for public review (not that affiliates fear public debates), they might be less willing or even able to discuss some issues that might, for example, involve financial matters, privacy issues, or embargoed communications.

Hope that helps answer your question.

-greg (User:Varnent)
Vice Chair, Affiliations Committee

> On Oct 15, 2015, at 8:59 PM, Neil P. Quinn <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Carlos,
>
> Is there a reason why the list is private? The topics you mentioned—general
> affiliate discussion, regional conferences, blog post announcements, and so
> on—don't seem particularly sensitive. (I'm just curious. My WMF role has
> nothing to do with affiliates and I wouldn't subscribe to the list even if
> it were public.)
>
> Thanks!
>
> On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 2:19 PM, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Hi Carlos,
>>
>> Can you clarify how this list relates to the existing chapters mailing
>> list? (Also, please see the discussion at
>>
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Affiliates_Network#Mailing_list_request_for_comment
>> ).
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Pine
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 2:04 PM, Carlos M. Colina <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear all,
>>>
>>> On behalf of the Affiliations Committe, I am pleased to introduce the
>>> launch of the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list, which is basically a
>> place
>>> for all the affiliates (chapters, thematic organizations, user groups) to
>>> discuss issues related to affiliates, make announcements to other
>>> affiliates, and collaborate on activities and community-wide events. The
>>> idea is to help facilitate the dialogue affiliates across our movement,
>>> plus collaborative discussions like community-wide activities, joint
>>> edit-a-thons, regional conferences, blog/report posts, or other
>>> communications from affiliates.
>>>
>>> Each Wikimedia movement affiliate is allocated three spots on the mailing
>>> list. All affiliates may contact the Affiliations Committee to request
>>> additional spots if needed.
>>>
>>> Please find a bit more information on Meta:
>>>
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_movement_affiliates/Affiliates_mailing_list
>>> and do not hesitate contacting us if you have further questions.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Carlos
>>> --
>>> "*Jülüjain wane mmakat* ein kapülain tü alijunakalirua jee wayuukanairua
>>> junain ekerolaa alümüin supüshuwayale etijaanaka. Ayatashi waya junain."
>>> Carlos M. Colina
>>> Socio, A.C. Wikimedia Venezuela | RIF J-40129321-2 |
>> www.wikimedia.org.ve
>>> <http://wikimedia.org.ve>
>>> Chair, Wikimedia Foundation Affiliations Committee
>>> Phone: +972-52-4869915
>>> Twitter: @maor_x
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>> [hidden email]
>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>> [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Neil P. Quinn <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Neil_P._Quinn-WMF>,
> product analyst
> Wikimedia Foundation
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>

_______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Introducing the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list

Ed Erhart-2
In reply to this post by Pine W
I too question the need for a private mailing list. We should require more
than a just a "consistent request" before we reduce transparency and create
yet another walled garden away from the community.

--Ed
On Oct 16, 2015 12:07 AM, "Pine W" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Got it. Thanks Varnent.
>
> Regarding the privacy question: I'm sort of thinking that if we really want
> to keep the new list private for legal or other reasons, it should be run
> outside of WMF servers like the chapters list is. On the other hand, if the
> purpose of the new list is to facilitate discussion among affiliates in a
> smaller and less public group while still being open to WMF employees to a
> limited degree, then the hosting proposed here makes sense. Personally, I
> get the sense that the affiliate and WMF relationships have generally
> (there are exceptions) warmed a bit over the past couple of years as
> affiliate governance and leadership have evolved and as WMF's evaluation
> capacity has improved, so I'm fine with the new design. Thanks for working
> on this.
>
> Pine
> On Oct 15, 2015 8:55 PM, "Gregory Varnum" <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Hey Pine,
> >
> > As you know, AffCom started looking into this list after some discussions
> > with affiliates in Berlin, Wikimania, and at that page you referred to.
> We
> > did talk with that list’s moderators about potentially reusing that list
> > (largely why the creation of this list took awhile). However, ultimately,
> > we decided to proceed with the creation of this list.
> >
> > The old list is not on Wikimedia servers or officially connected to
> > AffCom, so I cannot speak to its future. However, it has becoming
> > increasingly inactive, is limited to chapters (so excludes a majority of
> > our affiliates), and not something we have promoted recently. My personal
> > hope is that this new broader list replaces that one over time, but that
> is
> > not something we can “force” as it’s not a resource we officially help
> > manage.
> >
> > -greg (User:Varnent)
> > Vice Chair, Affiliations Committee
> >
> >
> > > On Oct 15, 2015, at 5:19 PM, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Carlos,
> > >
> > > Can you clarify how this list relates to the existing chapters mailing
> > > list? (Also, please see the discussion at
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Affiliates_Network#Mailing_list_request_for_comment
> > > ).
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Pine
> > >
> > > On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 2:04 PM, Carlos M. Colina <
> > [hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >> Dear all,
> > >>
> > >> On behalf of the Affiliations Committe, I am pleased to introduce the
> > >> launch of the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list, which is basically a
> > place
> > >> for all the affiliates (chapters, thematic organizations, user groups)
> > to
> > >> discuss issues related to affiliates, make announcements to other
> > >> affiliates, and collaborate on activities and community-wide events.
> The
> > >> idea is to help facilitate the dialogue affiliates across our
> movement,
> > >> plus collaborative discussions like community-wide activities, joint
> > >> edit-a-thons, regional conferences, blog/report posts, or other
> > >> communications from affiliates.
> > >>
> > >> Each Wikimedia movement affiliate is allocated three spots on the
> > mailing
> > >> list. All affiliates may contact the Affiliations Committee to request
> > >> additional spots if needed.
> > >>
> > >> Please find a bit more information on Meta:
> > >>
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_movement_affiliates/Affiliates_mailing_list
> > >> and do not hesitate contacting us if you have further questions.
> > >>
> > >> Regards,
> > >> Carlos
> > >> --
> > >> "*Jülüjain wane mmakat* ein kapülain tü alijunakalirua jee
> wayuukanairua
> > >> junain ekerolaa alümüin supüshuwayale etijaanaka. Ayatashi waya
> junain."
> > >> Carlos M. Colina
> > >> Socio, A.C. Wikimedia Venezuela | RIF J-40129321-2 |
> > www.wikimedia.org.ve
> > >> <http://wikimedia.org.ve>
> > >> Chair, Wikimedia Foundation Affiliations Committee
> > >> Phone: +972-52-4869915
> > >> Twitter: @maor_x
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > >> [hidden email]
> > >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> ,
> > >> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Introducing the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list

Gregory Varnum-2
Our current plan is to bring this up with the list once there is a good number of people on it.

Given that the list is for affiliates, our feeling is that it is best for them to decide how they would like to use the list. If a structure is imposed on them, it is less likely they will use the list, and the whole point of creating it would be defeated. Since there were requests for the list to be private, it seemed easier to start from that point and make changes based on the consensus of those we hope will utilize the list most.

-greg (User:Varnent)
Vice Chair, Affiliations Committee


> On Oct 19, 2015, at 1:10 PM, Ed Erhart <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I too question the need for a private mailing list. We should require more
> than a just a "consistent request" before we reduce transparency and create
> yet another walled garden away from the community.
>
> --Ed
> On Oct 16, 2015 12:07 AM, "Pine W" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Got it. Thanks Varnent.
>>
>> Regarding the privacy question: I'm sort of thinking that if we really want
>> to keep the new list private for legal or other reasons, it should be run
>> outside of WMF servers like the chapters list is. On the other hand, if the
>> purpose of the new list is to facilitate discussion among affiliates in a
>> smaller and less public group while still being open to WMF employees to a
>> limited degree, then the hosting proposed here makes sense. Personally, I
>> get the sense that the affiliate and WMF relationships have generally
>> (there are exceptions) warmed a bit over the past couple of years as
>> affiliate governance and leadership have evolved and as WMF's evaluation
>> capacity has improved, so I'm fine with the new design. Thanks for working
>> on this.
>>
>> Pine
>> On Oct 15, 2015 8:55 PM, "Gregory Varnum" <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hey Pine,
>>>
>>> As you know, AffCom started looking into this list after some discussions
>>> with affiliates in Berlin, Wikimania, and at that page you referred to.
>> We
>>> did talk with that list’s moderators about potentially reusing that list
>>> (largely why the creation of this list took awhile). However, ultimately,
>>> we decided to proceed with the creation of this list.
>>>
>>> The old list is not on Wikimedia servers or officially connected to
>>> AffCom, so I cannot speak to its future. However, it has becoming
>>> increasingly inactive, is limited to chapters (so excludes a majority of
>>> our affiliates), and not something we have promoted recently. My personal
>>> hope is that this new broader list replaces that one over time, but that
>> is
>>> not something we can “force” as it’s not a resource we officially help
>>> manage.
>>>
>>> -greg (User:Varnent)
>>> Vice Chair, Affiliations Committee
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Oct 15, 2015, at 5:19 PM, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Carlos,
>>>>
>>>> Can you clarify how this list relates to the existing chapters mailing
>>>> list? (Also, please see the discussion at
>>>>
>>>
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Affiliates_Network#Mailing_list_request_for_comment
>>>> ).
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> Pine
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 2:04 PM, Carlos M. Colina <
>>> [hidden email]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>
>>>>> On behalf of the Affiliations Committe, I am pleased to introduce the
>>>>> launch of the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list, which is basically a
>>> place
>>>>> for all the affiliates (chapters, thematic organizations, user groups)
>>> to
>>>>> discuss issues related to affiliates, make announcements to other
>>>>> affiliates, and collaborate on activities and community-wide events.
>> The
>>>>> idea is to help facilitate the dialogue affiliates across our
>> movement,
>>>>> plus collaborative discussions like community-wide activities, joint
>>>>> edit-a-thons, regional conferences, blog/report posts, or other
>>>>> communications from affiliates.
>>>>>
>>>>> Each Wikimedia movement affiliate is allocated three spots on the
>>> mailing
>>>>> list. All affiliates may contact the Affiliations Committee to request
>>>>> additional spots if needed.
>>>>>
>>>>> Please find a bit more information on Meta:
>>>>>
>>>
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_movement_affiliates/Affiliates_mailing_list
>>>>> and do not hesitate contacting us if you have further questions.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Carlos
>>>>> --
>>>>> "*Jülüjain wane mmakat* ein kapülain tü alijunakalirua jee
>> wayuukanairua
>>>>> junain ekerolaa alümüin supüshuwayale etijaanaka. Ayatashi waya
>> junain."
>>>>> Carlos M. Colina
>>>>> Socio, A.C. Wikimedia Venezuela | RIF J-40129321-2 |
>>> www.wikimedia.org.ve
>>>>> <http://wikimedia.org.ve>
>>>>> Chair, Wikimedia Foundation Affiliations Committee
>>>>> Phone: +972-52-4869915
>>>>> Twitter: @maor_x
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>> ,
>>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Introducing the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list

Sam Klein
+1 for public archives to start.  Private lists are almost never made
public later, even where there's no need for privacy.

A more transparent alternative is to make any list publicly-archived
(archives world-readable, even if membership and ability to post to the
list is restricted), while setting it up and discussing its purpose.  If
list members have specific uses that would require privacy, that purpose
can drive a decision to make it private. Then at least those founding
discussions and the reason for list privacy are visible to others.

The converse doesn't happen.  The only people whose voices count in a
decision to make a list public are generally those already on the list.
And they have access, so they have no pressing need to review whether its
archives should be public.

Gregory Varnum writes:
> the whole point of creating it would be defeated.

Well, Carlos mentioned 10 uses for the list, none of which need private
discussion. It sounds like you're saying an 11th is "encouraging affiliates
who don't currently write about their work and experiences, to do so" and
you think a significant number will only do so if their messages are not
publicly visible or archived.

The downside is that you defined the list very broadly, also encouraging
people who currently write about their work publicly to start using this
new list: so now those thoughts will be lost to the larger community
forever.  And the majority of outreach projects, event organizers, local
communities, and groups (which aren't interested in going through a formal
recognition process) will be walled out.

SJ

On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 1:18 PM, Gregory Varnum <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Our current plan is to bring this up with the list once there is a good
> number of people on it.
>
> Given that the list is for affiliates, our feeling is that it is best for
> them to decide how they would like to use the list. If a structure is
> imposed on them, it is less likely they will use the list, and the whole
> point of creating it would be defeated. Since there were requests for the
> list to be private, it seemed easier to start from that point and make
> changes based on the consensus of those we hope will utilize the list most.
>
> -greg (User:Varnent)
> Vice Chair, Affiliations Committee
>
>
> > On Oct 19, 2015, at 1:10 PM, Ed Erhart <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > I too question the need for a private mailing list. We should require
> more
> > than a just a "consistent request" before we reduce transparency and
> create
> > yet another walled garden away from the community.
> >
> > --Ed
> > On Oct 16, 2015 12:07 AM, "Pine W" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> Got it. Thanks Varnent.
> >>
> >> Regarding the privacy question: I'm sort of thinking that if we really
> want
> >> to keep the new list private for legal or other reasons, it should be
> run
> >> outside of WMF servers like the chapters list is. On the other hand, if
> the
> >> purpose of the new list is to facilitate discussion among affiliates in
> a
> >> smaller and less public group while still being open to WMF employees
> to a
> >> limited degree, then the hosting proposed here makes sense. Personally,
> I
> >> get the sense that the affiliate and WMF relationships have generally
> >> (there are exceptions) warmed a bit over the past couple of years as
> >> affiliate governance and leadership have evolved and as WMF's evaluation
> >> capacity has improved, so I'm fine with the new design. Thanks for
> working
> >> on this.
> >>
> >> Pine
> >> On Oct 15, 2015 8:55 PM, "Gregory Varnum" <[hidden email]>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hey Pine,
> >>>
> >>> As you know, AffCom started looking into this list after some
> discussions
> >>> with affiliates in Berlin, Wikimania, and at that page you referred to.
> >> We
> >>> did talk with that list’s moderators about potentially reusing that
> list
> >>> (largely why the creation of this list took awhile). However,
> ultimately,
> >>> we decided to proceed with the creation of this list.
> >>>
> >>> The old list is not on Wikimedia servers or officially connected to
> >>> AffCom, so I cannot speak to its future. However, it has becoming
> >>> increasingly inactive, is limited to chapters (so excludes a majority
> of
> >>> our affiliates), and not something we have promoted recently. My
> personal
> >>> hope is that this new broader list replaces that one over time, but
> that
> >> is
> >>> not something we can “force” as it’s not a resource we officially help
> >>> manage.
> >>>
> >>> -greg (User:Varnent)
> >>> Vice Chair, Affiliations Committee
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> On Oct 15, 2015, at 5:19 PM, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Hi Carlos,
> >>>>
> >>>> Can you clarify how this list relates to the existing chapters mailing
> >>>> list? (Also, please see the discussion at
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Affiliates_Network#Mailing_list_request_for_comment
> >>>> ).
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks,
> >>>>
> >>>> Pine
> >>>>
> >>>> On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 2:04 PM, Carlos M. Colina <
> >>> [hidden email]>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Dear all,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On behalf of the Affiliations Committe, I am pleased to introduce the
> >>>>> launch of the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list, which is basically a
> >>> place
> >>>>> for all the affiliates (chapters, thematic organizations, user
> groups)
> >>> to
> >>>>> discuss issues related to affiliates, make announcements to other
> >>>>> affiliates, and collaborate on activities and community-wide events.
> >> The
> >>>>> idea is to help facilitate the dialogue affiliates across our
> >> movement,
> >>>>> plus collaborative discussions like community-wide activities, joint
> >>>>> edit-a-thons, regional conferences, blog/report posts, or other
> >>>>> communications from affiliates.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Each Wikimedia movement affiliate is allocated three spots on the
> >>> mailing
> >>>>> list. All affiliates may contact the Affiliations Committee to
> request
> >>>>> additional spots if needed.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Please find a bit more information on Meta:
> >>>>>
> >>>
> >>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_movement_affiliates/Affiliates_mailing_list
> >>>>> and do not hesitate contacting us if you have further questions.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Regards,
> >>>>> Carlos
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> "*Jülüjain wane mmakat* ein kapülain tü alijunakalirua jee
> >> wayuukanairua
> >>>>> junain ekerolaa alümüin supüshuwayale etijaanaka. Ayatashi waya
> >> junain."
> >>>>> Carlos M. Colina
> >>>>> Socio, A.C. Wikimedia Venezuela | RIF J-40129321-2 |
> >>> www.wikimedia.org.ve
> >>>>> <http://wikimedia.org.ve>
> >>>>> Chair, Wikimedia Foundation Affiliations Committee
> >>>>> Phone: +972-52-4869915
> >>>>> Twitter: @maor_x
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> >>>>> [hidden email]
> >>>>> Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> >> ,
> >>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> >>>> [hidden email]
> >>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> ,
> >>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> >>> [hidden email]
> >>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> >>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> >> [hidden email]
> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> >> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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> [hidden email]
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>



--
Samuel Klein          @metasj          w:user:sj          +1 617 529 4266
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Introducing the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list

Gregory Varnum-2
There has already been discussion amongst some affiliates about this issue (including one on Meta-Wiki) - which is where this comes from.

I suggest we leave it private for now and see what the affiliates on the list would like to do.

I disagree with your sentiment that none of the 10 points require privacy. One of them is discussing affiliate-specific issues - which might include financial or privacy issues facing an affiliates, an interaction with the WMF, or advice on discussing an issue with the broader community. My understanding is that there is a fear people may be more reserved in discussing topics if their comments are up for public discussion.

If private lists or wikis were a new concept, I think the expectation might be something more fair to proceed with. However, there are several private lists already in use, and as stated, this is in response to requests from affiliates. That request included that the list be made private, which seems reasonable.

Ultimately, I do not feel comfortable making this decision for the affiliates, and since they initially requested it be private, I would like to respect that and allow them to discuss it more.

I agree that having a discussion about how we achieve transparency is worth doing. However, starting that discussion (or restarting it I suppose) by imposing a new measure that was specifically not wanted by the target audience of that resource is not the best way to move things forward. The end result would likely be that they wind up not using the list as much, or create a separate list to fulfill their initial request. I would like to avoid that.

-greg


> On Oct 19, 2015, at 1:56 PM, Sam Klein <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> +1 for public archives to start.  Private lists are almost never made
> public later, even where there's no need for privacy.
>
> A more transparent alternative is to make any list publicly-archived
> (archives world-readable, even if membership and ability to post to the
> list is restricted), while setting it up and discussing its purpose.  If
> list members have specific uses that would require privacy, that purpose
> can drive a decision to make it private. Then at least those founding
> discussions and the reason for list privacy are visible to others.
>
> The converse doesn't happen.  The only people whose voices count in a
> decision to make a list public are generally those already on the list.
> And they have access, so they have no pressing need to review whether its
> archives should be public.
>
> Gregory Varnum writes:
>> the whole point of creating it would be defeated.
>
> Well, Carlos mentioned 10 uses for the list, none of which need private
> discussion. It sounds like you're saying an 11th is "encouraging affiliates
> who don't currently write about their work and experiences, to do so" and
> you think a significant number will only do so if their messages are not
> publicly visible or archived.
>
> The downside is that you defined the list very broadly, also encouraging
> people who currently write about their work publicly to start using this
> new list: so now those thoughts will be lost to the larger community
> forever.  And the majority of outreach projects, event organizers, local
> communities, and groups (which aren't interested in going through a formal
> recognition process) will be walled out.
>
> SJ
>
> On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 1:18 PM, Gregory Varnum <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> Our current plan is to bring this up with the list once there is a good
>> number of people on it.
>>
>> Given that the list is for affiliates, our feeling is that it is best for
>> them to decide how they would like to use the list. If a structure is
>> imposed on them, it is less likely they will use the list, and the whole
>> point of creating it would be defeated. Since there were requests for the
>> list to be private, it seemed easier to start from that point and make
>> changes based on the consensus of those we hope will utilize the list most.
>>
>> -greg (User:Varnent)
>> Vice Chair, Affiliations Committee
>>
>>
>>> On Oct 19, 2015, at 1:10 PM, Ed Erhart <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> I too question the need for a private mailing list. We should require
>> more
>>> than a just a "consistent request" before we reduce transparency and
>> create
>>> yet another walled garden away from the community.
>>>
>>> --Ed
>>> On Oct 16, 2015 12:07 AM, "Pine W" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Got it. Thanks Varnent.
>>>>
>>>> Regarding the privacy question: I'm sort of thinking that if we really
>> want
>>>> to keep the new list private for legal or other reasons, it should be
>> run
>>>> outside of WMF servers like the chapters list is. On the other hand, if
>> the
>>>> purpose of the new list is to facilitate discussion among affiliates in
>> a
>>>> smaller and less public group while still being open to WMF employees
>> to a
>>>> limited degree, then the hosting proposed here makes sense. Personally,
>> I
>>>> get the sense that the affiliate and WMF relationships have generally
>>>> (there are exceptions) warmed a bit over the past couple of years as
>>>> affiliate governance and leadership have evolved and as WMF's evaluation
>>>> capacity has improved, so I'm fine with the new design. Thanks for
>> working
>>>> on this.
>>>>
>>>> Pine
>>>> On Oct 15, 2015 8:55 PM, "Gregory Varnum" <[hidden email]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hey Pine,
>>>>>
>>>>> As you know, AffCom started looking into this list after some
>> discussions
>>>>> with affiliates in Berlin, Wikimania, and at that page you referred to.
>>>> We
>>>>> did talk with that list’s moderators about potentially reusing that
>> list
>>>>> (largely why the creation of this list took awhile). However,
>> ultimately,
>>>>> we decided to proceed with the creation of this list.
>>>>>
>>>>> The old list is not on Wikimedia servers or officially connected to
>>>>> AffCom, so I cannot speak to its future. However, it has becoming
>>>>> increasingly inactive, is limited to chapters (so excludes a majority
>> of
>>>>> our affiliates), and not something we have promoted recently. My
>> personal
>>>>> hope is that this new broader list replaces that one over time, but
>> that
>>>> is
>>>>> not something we can “force” as it’s not a resource we officially help
>>>>> manage.
>>>>>
>>>>> -greg (User:Varnent)
>>>>> Vice Chair, Affiliations Committee
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Oct 15, 2015, at 5:19 PM, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Carlos,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Can you clarify how this list relates to the existing chapters mailing
>>>>>> list? (Also, please see the discussion at
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Affiliates_Network#Mailing_list_request_for_comment
>>>>>> ).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Pine
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 2:04 PM, Carlos M. Colina <
>>>>> [hidden email]>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On behalf of the Affiliations Committe, I am pleased to introduce the
>>>>>>> launch of the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list, which is basically a
>>>>> place
>>>>>>> for all the affiliates (chapters, thematic organizations, user
>> groups)
>>>>> to
>>>>>>> discuss issues related to affiliates, make announcements to other
>>>>>>> affiliates, and collaborate on activities and community-wide events.
>>>> The
>>>>>>> idea is to help facilitate the dialogue affiliates across our
>>>> movement,
>>>>>>> plus collaborative discussions like community-wide activities, joint
>>>>>>> edit-a-thons, regional conferences, blog/report posts, or other
>>>>>>> communications from affiliates.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Each Wikimedia movement affiliate is allocated three spots on the
>>>>> mailing
>>>>>>> list. All affiliates may contact the Affiliations Committee to
>> request
>>>>>>> additional spots if needed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Please find a bit more information on Meta:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_movement_affiliates/Affiliates_mailing_list
>>>>>>> and do not hesitate contacting us if you have further questions.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>> Carlos
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> "*Jülüjain wane mmakat* ein kapülain tü alijunakalirua jee
>>>> wayuukanairua
>>>>>>> junain ekerolaa alümüin supüshuwayale etijaanaka. Ayatashi waya
>>>> junain."
>>>>>>> Carlos M. Colina
>>>>>>> Socio, A.C. Wikimedia Venezuela | RIF J-40129321-2 |
>>>>> www.wikimedia.org.ve
>>>>>>> <http://wikimedia.org.ve>
>>>>>>> Chair, Wikimedia Foundation Affiliations Committee
>>>>>>> Phone: +972-52-4869915
>>>>>>> Twitter: @maor_x
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>> Unsubscribe:
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>>>> ,
>>>>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>> ,
>>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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>>
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>>
>
>
>
> --
> Samuel Klein          @metasj          w:user:sj          +1 617 529 4266
> _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Introducing the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list

Ed Erhart-2
You've set up a strawman argument, Greg, and your solution is suboptimal.
This is a community issue, as SJ correctly notes, and it should be
discussed with the community. Leaving it private "for now" and polling the
list affiliates (or going back to a virtually unknown Meta page) is going
to result in the list staying closed—do we really believe that anyone there
is going to vote to publicize their own discussions?

Are there specific examples of these "affiliate-specific issues" occurring
in the past? There are very few things that I can think of that should be
private, and one of those is privacy issues, which shouldn't be discussed
on any mailing lists (open or closed). Leaks can and do happen.

If a chapter needs private advice "on discussing an issue with the broader
community", they might want to look into breaking down the walled garden
they're already in.

--Ed

On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 2:21 PM, Gregory Varnum <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> There has already been discussion amongst some affiliates about this issue
> (including one on Meta-Wiki) - which is where this comes from.
>
> I suggest we leave it private for now and see what the affiliates on the
> list would like to do.
>
> I disagree with your sentiment that none of the 10 points require privacy.
> One of them is discussing affiliate-specific issues - which might include
> financial or privacy issues facing an affiliates, an interaction with the
> WMF, or advice on discussing an issue with the broader community. My
> understanding is that there is a fear people may be more reserved in
> discussing topics if their comments are up for public discussion.
>
> If private lists or wikis were a new concept, I think the expectation
> might be something more fair to proceed with. However, there are several
> private lists already in use, and as stated, this is in response to
> requests from affiliates. That request included that the list be made
> private, which seems reasonable.
>
> Ultimately, I do not feel comfortable making this decision for the
> affiliates, and since they initially requested it be private, I would like
> to respect that and allow them to discuss it more.
>
> I agree that having a discussion about how we achieve transparency is
> worth doing. However, starting that discussion (or restarting it I suppose)
> by imposing a new measure that was specifically not wanted by the target
> audience of that resource is not the best way to move things forward. The
> end result would likely be that they wind up not using the list as much, or
> create a separate list to fulfill their initial request. I would like to
> avoid that.
>
> -greg
>
>
> > On Oct 19, 2015, at 1:56 PM, Sam Klein <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > +1 for public archives to start.  Private lists are almost never made
> > public later, even where there's no need for privacy.
> >
> > A more transparent alternative is to make any list publicly-archived
> > (archives world-readable, even if membership and ability to post to the
> > list is restricted), while setting it up and discussing its purpose.  If
> > list members have specific uses that would require privacy, that purpose
> > can drive a decision to make it private. Then at least those founding
> > discussions and the reason for list privacy are visible to others.
> >
> > The converse doesn't happen.  The only people whose voices count in a
> > decision to make a list public are generally those already on the list.
> > And they have access, so they have no pressing need to review whether its
> > archives should be public.
> >
> > Gregory Varnum writes:
> >> the whole point of creating it would be defeated.
> >
> > Well, Carlos mentioned 10 uses for the list, none of which need private
> > discussion. It sounds like you're saying an 11th is "encouraging
> affiliates
> > who don't currently write about their work and experiences, to do so" and
> > you think a significant number will only do so if their messages are not
> > publicly visible or archived.
> >
> > The downside is that you defined the list very broadly, also encouraging
> > people who currently write about their work publicly to start using this
> > new list: so now those thoughts will be lost to the larger community
> > forever.  And the majority of outreach projects, event organizers, local
> > communities, and groups (which aren't interested in going through a
> formal
> > recognition process) will be walled out.
> >
> > SJ
> >
> > On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 1:18 PM, Gregory Varnum <
> [hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Our current plan is to bring this up with the list once there is a good
> >> number of people on it.
> >>
> >> Given that the list is for affiliates, our feeling is that it is best
> for
> >> them to decide how they would like to use the list. If a structure is
> >> imposed on them, it is less likely they will use the list, and the whole
> >> point of creating it would be defeated. Since there were requests for
> the
> >> list to be private, it seemed easier to start from that point and make
> >> changes based on the consensus of those we hope will utilize the list
> most.
> >>
> >> -greg (User:Varnent)
> >> Vice Chair, Affiliations Committee
> >>
> >>
> >>> On Oct 19, 2015, at 1:10 PM, Ed Erhart <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I too question the need for a private mailing list. We should require
> >> more
> >>> than a just a "consistent request" before we reduce transparency and
> >> create
> >>> yet another walled garden away from the community.
> >>>
> >>> --Ed
> >>> On Oct 16, 2015 12:07 AM, "Pine W" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Got it. Thanks Varnent.
> >>>>
> >>>> Regarding the privacy question: I'm sort of thinking that if we really
> >> want
> >>>> to keep the new list private for legal or other reasons, it should be
> >> run
> >>>> outside of WMF servers like the chapters list is. On the other hand,
> if
> >> the
> >>>> purpose of the new list is to facilitate discussion among affiliates
> in
> >> a
> >>>> smaller and less public group while still being open to WMF employees
> >> to a
> >>>> limited degree, then the hosting proposed here makes sense.
> Personally,
> >> I
> >>>> get the sense that the affiliate and WMF relationships have generally
> >>>> (there are exceptions) warmed a bit over the past couple of years as
> >>>> affiliate governance and leadership have evolved and as WMF's
> evaluation
> >>>> capacity has improved, so I'm fine with the new design. Thanks for
> >> working
> >>>> on this.
> >>>>
> >>>> Pine
> >>>> On Oct 15, 2015 8:55 PM, "Gregory Varnum" <[hidden email]>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Hey Pine,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> As you know, AffCom started looking into this list after some
> >> discussions
> >>>>> with affiliates in Berlin, Wikimania, and at that page you referred
> to.
> >>>> We
> >>>>> did talk with that list’s moderators about potentially reusing that
> >> list
> >>>>> (largely why the creation of this list took awhile). However,
> >> ultimately,
> >>>>> we decided to proceed with the creation of this list.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The old list is not on Wikimedia servers or officially connected to
> >>>>> AffCom, so I cannot speak to its future. However, it has becoming
> >>>>> increasingly inactive, is limited to chapters (so excludes a majority
> >> of
> >>>>> our affiliates), and not something we have promoted recently. My
> >> personal
> >>>>> hope is that this new broader list replaces that one over time, but
> >> that
> >>>> is
> >>>>> not something we can “force” as it’s not a resource we officially
> help
> >>>>> manage.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -greg (User:Varnent)
> >>>>> Vice Chair, Affiliations Committee
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On Oct 15, 2015, at 5:19 PM, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Hi Carlos,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Can you clarify how this list relates to the existing chapters
> mailing
> >>>>>> list? (Also, please see the discussion at
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Affiliates_Network#Mailing_list_request_for_comment
> >>>>>> ).
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Pine
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 2:04 PM, Carlos M. Colina <
> >>>>> [hidden email]>
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Dear all,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On behalf of the Affiliations Committe, I am pleased to introduce
> the
> >>>>>>> launch of the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list, which is
> basically a
> >>>>> place
> >>>>>>> for all the affiliates (chapters, thematic organizations, user
> >> groups)
> >>>>> to
> >>>>>>> discuss issues related to affiliates, make announcements to other
> >>>>>>> affiliates, and collaborate on activities and community-wide
> events.
> >>>> The
> >>>>>>> idea is to help facilitate the dialogue affiliates across our
> >>>> movement,
> >>>>>>> plus collaborative discussions like community-wide activities,
> joint
> >>>>>>> edit-a-thons, regional conferences, blog/report posts, or other
> >>>>>>> communications from affiliates.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Each Wikimedia movement affiliate is allocated three spots on the
> >>>>> mailing
> >>>>>>> list. All affiliates may contact the Affiliations Committee to
> >> request
> >>>>>>> additional spots if needed.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Please find a bit more information on Meta:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_movement_affiliates/Affiliates_mailing_list
> >>>>>>> and do not hesitate contacting us if you have further questions.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Regards,
> >>>>>>> Carlos
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> "*Jülüjain wane mmakat* ein kapülain tü alijunakalirua jee
> >>>> wayuukanairua
> >>>>>>> junain ekerolaa alümüin supüshuwayale etijaanaka. Ayatashi waya
> >>>> junain."
> >>>>>>> Carlos M. Colina
> >>>>>>> Socio, A.C. Wikimedia Venezuela | RIF J-40129321-2 |
> >>>>> www.wikimedia.org.ve
> >>>>>>> <http://wikimedia.org.ve>
> >>>>>>> Chair, Wikimedia Foundation Affiliations Committee
> >>>>>>> Phone: +972-52-4869915
> >>>>>>> Twitter: @maor_x
> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> >>>>>>> [hidden email]
> >>>>>>> Unsubscribe:
> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> >>>> ,
> >>>>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> >>>>>> [hidden email]
> >>>>>> Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> >> ,
> >>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> >>>>> [hidden email]
> >>>>> Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> >>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> >>>> [hidden email]
> >>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> ,
> >>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> >>> [hidden email]
> >>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> >> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> >> [hidden email]
> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> >> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Samuel Klein          @metasj          w:user:sj          +1 617 529 4266
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Introducing the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list

Gregory Varnum-2
Again - I do not feel comfortable making this decision on behalf of the affiliates. I will pass all of this along to them when we have a list going enough to discuss such things.

If the consensus from the community is that a change be imposed on this list, which I agree is the right of the community, my personal hunch is that a new list will be created elsewhere and used instead. Keep in mind that chapters-l was maintained off WMF servers in part to protect privacy and prevent it from being subject to such changes. Again, if the goal is for the list to be used by affiliates, I question the reason to impose change on them, especially when it was something they specifically requested.

-greg

> On Oct 19, 2015, at 2:54 PM, Ed Erhart <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> You've set up a strawman argument, Greg, and your solution is suboptimal.
> This is a community issue, as SJ correctly notes, and it should be
> discussed with the community. Leaving it private "for now" and polling the
> list affiliates (or going back to a virtually unknown Meta page) is going
> to result in the list staying closed—do we really believe that anyone there
> is going to vote to publicize their own discussions?
>
> Are there specific examples of these "affiliate-specific issues" occurring
> in the past? There are very few things that I can think of that should be
> private, and one of those is privacy issues, which shouldn't be discussed
> on any mailing lists (open or closed). Leaks can and do happen.
>
> If a chapter needs private advice "on discussing an issue with the broader
> community", they might want to look into breaking down the walled garden
> they're already in.
>
> --Ed
>
> On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 2:21 PM, Gregory Varnum <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> There has already been discussion amongst some affiliates about this issue
>> (including one on Meta-Wiki) - which is where this comes from.
>>
>> I suggest we leave it private for now and see what the affiliates on the
>> list would like to do.
>>
>> I disagree with your sentiment that none of the 10 points require privacy.
>> One of them is discussing affiliate-specific issues - which might include
>> financial or privacy issues facing an affiliates, an interaction with the
>> WMF, or advice on discussing an issue with the broader community. My
>> understanding is that there is a fear people may be more reserved in
>> discussing topics if their comments are up for public discussion.
>>
>> If private lists or wikis were a new concept, I think the expectation
>> might be something more fair to proceed with. However, there are several
>> private lists already in use, and as stated, this is in response to
>> requests from affiliates. That request included that the list be made
>> private, which seems reasonable.
>>
>> Ultimately, I do not feel comfortable making this decision for the
>> affiliates, and since they initially requested it be private, I would like
>> to respect that and allow them to discuss it more.
>>
>> I agree that having a discussion about how we achieve transparency is
>> worth doing. However, starting that discussion (or restarting it I suppose)
>> by imposing a new measure that was specifically not wanted by the target
>> audience of that resource is not the best way to move things forward. The
>> end result would likely be that they wind up not using the list as much, or
>> create a separate list to fulfill their initial request. I would like to
>> avoid that.
>>
>> -greg
>>
>>
>>> On Oct 19, 2015, at 1:56 PM, Sam Klein <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> +1 for public archives to start.  Private lists are almost never made
>>> public later, even where there's no need for privacy.
>>>
>>> A more transparent alternative is to make any list publicly-archived
>>> (archives world-readable, even if membership and ability to post to the
>>> list is restricted), while setting it up and discussing its purpose.  If
>>> list members have specific uses that would require privacy, that purpose
>>> can drive a decision to make it private. Then at least those founding
>>> discussions and the reason for list privacy are visible to others.
>>>
>>> The converse doesn't happen.  The only people whose voices count in a
>>> decision to make a list public are generally those already on the list.
>>> And they have access, so they have no pressing need to review whether its
>>> archives should be public.
>>>
>>> Gregory Varnum writes:
>>>> the whole point of creating it would be defeated.
>>>
>>> Well, Carlos mentioned 10 uses for the list, none of which need private
>>> discussion. It sounds like you're saying an 11th is "encouraging
>> affiliates
>>> who don't currently write about their work and experiences, to do so" and
>>> you think a significant number will only do so if their messages are not
>>> publicly visible or archived.
>>>
>>> The downside is that you defined the list very broadly, also encouraging
>>> people who currently write about their work publicly to start using this
>>> new list: so now those thoughts will be lost to the larger community
>>> forever.  And the majority of outreach projects, event organizers, local
>>> communities, and groups (which aren't interested in going through a
>> formal
>>> recognition process) will be walled out.
>>>
>>> SJ
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 1:18 PM, Gregory Varnum <
>> [hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Our current plan is to bring this up with the list once there is a good
>>>> number of people on it.
>>>>
>>>> Given that the list is for affiliates, our feeling is that it is best
>> for
>>>> them to decide how they would like to use the list. If a structure is
>>>> imposed on them, it is less likely they will use the list, and the whole
>>>> point of creating it would be defeated. Since there were requests for
>> the
>>>> list to be private, it seemed easier to start from that point and make
>>>> changes based on the consensus of those we hope will utilize the list
>> most.
>>>>
>>>> -greg (User:Varnent)
>>>> Vice Chair, Affiliations Committee
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Oct 19, 2015, at 1:10 PM, Ed Erhart <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I too question the need for a private mailing list. We should require
>>>> more
>>>>> than a just a "consistent request" before we reduce transparency and
>>>> create
>>>>> yet another walled garden away from the community.
>>>>>
>>>>> --Ed
>>>>> On Oct 16, 2015 12:07 AM, "Pine W" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Got it. Thanks Varnent.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regarding the privacy question: I'm sort of thinking that if we really
>>>> want
>>>>>> to keep the new list private for legal or other reasons, it should be
>>>> run
>>>>>> outside of WMF servers like the chapters list is. On the other hand,
>> if
>>>> the
>>>>>> purpose of the new list is to facilitate discussion among affiliates
>> in
>>>> a
>>>>>> smaller and less public group while still being open to WMF employees
>>>> to a
>>>>>> limited degree, then the hosting proposed here makes sense.
>> Personally,
>>>> I
>>>>>> get the sense that the affiliate and WMF relationships have generally
>>>>>> (there are exceptions) warmed a bit over the past couple of years as
>>>>>> affiliate governance and leadership have evolved and as WMF's
>> evaluation
>>>>>> capacity has improved, so I'm fine with the new design. Thanks for
>>>> working
>>>>>> on this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Pine
>>>>>> On Oct 15, 2015 8:55 PM, "Gregory Varnum" <[hidden email]>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hey Pine,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As you know, AffCom started looking into this list after some
>>>> discussions
>>>>>>> with affiliates in Berlin, Wikimania, and at that page you referred
>> to.
>>>>>> We
>>>>>>> did talk with that list’s moderators about potentially reusing that
>>>> list
>>>>>>> (largely why the creation of this list took awhile). However,
>>>> ultimately,
>>>>>>> we decided to proceed with the creation of this list.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The old list is not on Wikimedia servers or officially connected to
>>>>>>> AffCom, so I cannot speak to its future. However, it has becoming
>>>>>>> increasingly inactive, is limited to chapters (so excludes a majority
>>>> of
>>>>>>> our affiliates), and not something we have promoted recently. My
>>>> personal
>>>>>>> hope is that this new broader list replaces that one over time, but
>>>> that
>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> not something we can “force” as it’s not a resource we officially
>> help
>>>>>>> manage.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -greg (User:Varnent)
>>>>>>> Vice Chair, Affiliations Committee
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Oct 15, 2015, at 5:19 PM, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Carlos,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Can you clarify how this list relates to the existing chapters
>> mailing
>>>>>>>> list? (Also, please see the discussion at
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Affiliates_Network#Mailing_list_request_for_comment
>>>>>>>> ).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Pine
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 2:04 PM, Carlos M. Colina <
>>>>>>> [hidden email]>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On behalf of the Affiliations Committe, I am pleased to introduce
>> the
>>>>>>>>> launch of the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list, which is
>> basically a
>>>>>>> place
>>>>>>>>> for all the affiliates (chapters, thematic organizations, user
>>>> groups)
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> discuss issues related to affiliates, make announcements to other
>>>>>>>>> affiliates, and collaborate on activities and community-wide
>> events.
>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>> idea is to help facilitate the dialogue affiliates across our
>>>>>> movement,
>>>>>>>>> plus collaborative discussions like community-wide activities,
>> joint
>>>>>>>>> edit-a-thons, regional conferences, blog/report posts, or other
>>>>>>>>> communications from affiliates.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Each Wikimedia movement affiliate is allocated three spots on the
>>>>>>> mailing
>>>>>>>>> list. All affiliates may contact the Affiliations Committee to
>>>> request
>>>>>>>>> additional spots if needed.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Please find a bit more information on Meta:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_movement_affiliates/Affiliates_mailing_list
>>>>>>>>> and do not hesitate contacting us if you have further questions.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>> Carlos
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> "*Jülüjain wane mmakat* ein kapülain tü alijunakalirua jee
>>>>>> wayuukanairua
>>>>>>>>> junain ekerolaa alümüin supüshuwayale etijaanaka. Ayatashi waya
>>>>>> junain."
>>>>>>>>> Carlos M. Colina
>>>>>>>>> Socio, A.C. Wikimedia Venezuela | RIF J-40129321-2 |
>>>>>>> www.wikimedia.org.ve
>>>>>>>>> <http://wikimedia.org.ve>
>>>>>>>>> Chair, Wikimedia Foundation Affiliations Committee
>>>>>>>>> Phone: +972-52-4869915
>>>>>>>>> Twitter: @maor_x
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>>>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>>>> Unsubscribe:
>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>>>>>> ,
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]
>> ?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>>> Unsubscribe:
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>>>> ,
>>>>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>> Unsubscribe:
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>>>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>> ,
>>>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Samuel Klein          @metasj          w:user:sj          +1 617 529 4266
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>> [hidden email]
>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>> [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Introducing the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list

Chris Keating-2
In reply to this post by Gregory Varnum-2
Looking at the current (private) chapters' list, for at least a year 90%+
of the traffic has been announcements that were cross-posted to
Wikimedia-l. The other 10% is invitations and requests addressed to
"chapters people" that might be boring to most people on wikimedia-l but
could have been publically archived with no problem.

The last "private" thing to happen on that list was discussion of the 2014
Affiliate Selected Board Seats process - actually not so much the process
itself but how to deal with an intemperate email from someone from the
English Wikipedia Signpost who was threatening to write an article about
the process being an undemocratic sham.  Apart from that we are stretching
back into 2013 and the death throes of the WCA before anyone said anything
interesting on the list.

On the subject of email lists, internal-l which is meant to be "chapters
plus WMF staff" has had virtually no traffic for literally years. There was
at one point a limit on the number of representatives of chapters that
could be on internal-l (and IIRC on the chapters list) but that never
really served any purpose (it certainly didn't improve the signal to noise
ratio...)

What does all of this mean? I think it's pretty clear that broad-based
private-access lists aren't serving any purpose. My preferred option would
be to either ditch the Chapters mailing list or make it announce-only,
scrap Internal-l entirely, and have an "affiliates" list that is open.

Chris


On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 7:21 PM, Gregory Varnum <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> There has already been discussion amongst some affiliates about this issue
> (including one on Meta-Wiki) - which is where this comes from.
>
> I suggest we leave it private for now and see what the affiliates on the
> list would like to do.
>
> I disagree with your sentiment that none of the 10 points require privacy.
> One of them is discussing affiliate-specific issues - which might include
> financial or privacy issues facing an affiliates, an interaction with the
> WMF, or advice on discussing an issue with the broader community. My
> understanding is that there is a fear people may be more reserved in
> discussing topics if their comments are up for public discussion.
>
> If private lists or wikis were a new concept, I think the expectation
> might be something more fair to proceed with. However, there are several
> private lists already in use, and as stated, this is in response to
> requests from affiliates. That request included that the list be made
> private, which seems reasonable.
>
> Ultimately, I do not feel comfortable making this decision for the
> affiliates, and since they initially requested it be private, I would like
> to respect that and allow them to discuss it more.
>
> I agree that having a discussion about how we achieve transparency is
> worth doing. However, starting that discussion (or restarting it I suppose)
> by imposing a new measure that was specifically not wanted by the target
> audience of that resource is not the best way to move things forward. The
> end result would likely be that they wind up not using the list as much, or
> create a separate list to fulfill their initial request. I would like to
> avoid that.
>
> -greg
>
>
> > On Oct 19, 2015, at 1:56 PM, Sam Klein <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > +1 for public archives to start.  Private lists are almost never made
> > public later, even where there's no need for privacy.
> >
> > A more transparent alternative is to make any list publicly-archived
> > (archives world-readable, even if membership and ability to post to the
> > list is restricted), while setting it up and discussing its purpose.  If
> > list members have specific uses that would require privacy, that purpose
> > can drive a decision to make it private. Then at least those founding
> > discussions and the reason for list privacy are visible to others.
> >
> > The converse doesn't happen.  The only people whose voices count in a
> > decision to make a list public are generally those already on the list.
> > And they have access, so they have no pressing need to review whether its
> > archives should be public.
> >
> > Gregory Varnum writes:
> >> the whole point of creating it would be defeated.
> >
> > Well, Carlos mentioned 10 uses for the list, none of which need private
> > discussion. It sounds like you're saying an 11th is "encouraging
> affiliates
> > who don't currently write about their work and experiences, to do so" and
> > you think a significant number will only do so if their messages are not
> > publicly visible or archived.
> >
> > The downside is that you defined the list very broadly, also encouraging
> > people who currently write about their work publicly to start using this
> > new list: so now those thoughts will be lost to the larger community
> > forever.  And the majority of outreach projects, event organizers, local
> > communities, and groups (which aren't interested in going through a
> formal
> > recognition process) will be walled out.
> >
> > SJ
> >
> > On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 1:18 PM, Gregory Varnum <
> [hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Our current plan is to bring this up with the list once there is a good
> >> number of people on it.
> >>
> >> Given that the list is for affiliates, our feeling is that it is best
> for
> >> them to decide how they would like to use the list. If a structure is
> >> imposed on them, it is less likely they will use the list, and the whole
> >> point of creating it would be defeated. Since there were requests for
> the
> >> list to be private, it seemed easier to start from that point and make
> >> changes based on the consensus of those we hope will utilize the list
> most.
> >>
> >> -greg (User:Varnent)
> >> Vice Chair, Affiliations Committee
> >>
> >>
> >>> On Oct 19, 2015, at 1:10 PM, Ed Erhart <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I too question the need for a private mailing list. We should require
> >> more
> >>> than a just a "consistent request" before we reduce transparency and
> >> create
> >>> yet another walled garden away from the community.
> >>>
> >>> --Ed
> >>> On Oct 16, 2015 12:07 AM, "Pine W" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Got it. Thanks Varnent.
> >>>>
> >>>> Regarding the privacy question: I'm sort of thinking that if we really
> >> want
> >>>> to keep the new list private for legal or other reasons, it should be
> >> run
> >>>> outside of WMF servers like the chapters list is. On the other hand,
> if
> >> the
> >>>> purpose of the new list is to facilitate discussion among affiliates
> in
> >> a
> >>>> smaller and less public group while still being open to WMF employees
> >> to a
> >>>> limited degree, then the hosting proposed here makes sense.
> Personally,
> >> I
> >>>> get the sense that the affiliate and WMF relationships have generally
> >>>> (there are exceptions) warmed a bit over the past couple of years as
> >>>> affiliate governance and leadership have evolved and as WMF's
> evaluation
> >>>> capacity has improved, so I'm fine with the new design. Thanks for
> >> working
> >>>> on this.
> >>>>
> >>>> Pine
> >>>> On Oct 15, 2015 8:55 PM, "Gregory Varnum" <[hidden email]>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Hey Pine,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> As you know, AffCom started looking into this list after some
> >> discussions
> >>>>> with affiliates in Berlin, Wikimania, and at that page you referred
> to.
> >>>> We
> >>>>> did talk with that list’s moderators about potentially reusing that
> >> list
> >>>>> (largely why the creation of this list took awhile). However,
> >> ultimately,
> >>>>> we decided to proceed with the creation of this list.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The old list is not on Wikimedia servers or officially connected to
> >>>>> AffCom, so I cannot speak to its future. However, it has becoming
> >>>>> increasingly inactive, is limited to chapters (so excludes a majority
> >> of
> >>>>> our affiliates), and not something we have promoted recently. My
> >> personal
> >>>>> hope is that this new broader list replaces that one over time, but
> >> that
> >>>> is
> >>>>> not something we can “force” as it’s not a resource we officially
> help
> >>>>> manage.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -greg (User:Varnent)
> >>>>> Vice Chair, Affiliations Committee
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On Oct 15, 2015, at 5:19 PM, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Hi Carlos,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Can you clarify how this list relates to the existing chapters
> mailing
> >>>>>> list? (Also, please see the discussion at
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Affiliates_Network#Mailing_list_request_for_comment
> >>>>>> ).
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Pine
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 2:04 PM, Carlos M. Colina <
> >>>>> [hidden email]>
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Dear all,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On behalf of the Affiliations Committe, I am pleased to introduce
> the
> >>>>>>> launch of the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list, which is
> basically a
> >>>>> place
> >>>>>>> for all the affiliates (chapters, thematic organizations, user
> >> groups)
> >>>>> to
> >>>>>>> discuss issues related to affiliates, make announcements to other
> >>>>>>> affiliates, and collaborate on activities and community-wide
> events.
> >>>> The
> >>>>>>> idea is to help facilitate the dialogue affiliates across our
> >>>> movement,
> >>>>>>> plus collaborative discussions like community-wide activities,
> joint
> >>>>>>> edit-a-thons, regional conferences, blog/report posts, or other
> >>>>>>> communications from affiliates.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Each Wikimedia movement affiliate is allocated three spots on the
> >>>>> mailing
> >>>>>>> list. All affiliates may contact the Affiliations Committee to
> >> request
> >>>>>>> additional spots if needed.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Please find a bit more information on Meta:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_movement_affiliates/Affiliates_mailing_list
> >>>>>>> and do not hesitate contacting us if you have further questions.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Regards,
> >>>>>>> Carlos
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> "*Jülüjain wane mmakat* ein kapülain tü alijunakalirua jee
> >>>> wayuukanairua
> >>>>>>> junain ekerolaa alümüin supüshuwayale etijaanaka. Ayatashi waya
> >>>> junain."
> >>>>>>> Carlos M. Colina
> >>>>>>> Socio, A.C. Wikimedia Venezuela | RIF J-40129321-2 |
> >>>>> www.wikimedia.org.ve
> >>>>>>> <http://wikimedia.org.ve>
> >>>>>>> Chair, Wikimedia Foundation Affiliations Committee
> >>>>>>> Phone: +972-52-4869915
> >>>>>>> Twitter: @maor_x
> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> >>>>>>> [hidden email]
> >>>>>>> Unsubscribe:
> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> >>>> ,
> >>>>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> >>>>>> [hidden email]
> >>>>>> Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> >> ,
> >>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> >>>>> [hidden email]
> >>>>> Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> >>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> >>>> [hidden email]
> >>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> ,
> >>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> >>> [hidden email]
> >>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> >> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> >> [hidden email]
> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> >> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Samuel Klein          @metasj          w:user:sj          +1 617 529
> 4266
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Introducing the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list

Gregory Varnum-2
Chris - and I suspect others - who are already welcome to join this list - are why I think it is not a foregone conclusion that it will be kept private.

Remember that we have a diverse group of 80+ affiliates. It may in fact not be that the will of the ones who requested it represents the will of everyone. However, I am not personally comfortably declaring that on their behalf. I would prefer to allow them to discuss it and go from there.

-greg

> On Oct 19, 2015, at 3:12 PM, Chris Keating <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Looking at the current (private) chapters' list, for at least a year 90%+
> of the traffic has been announcements that were cross-posted to
> Wikimedia-l. The other 10% is invitations and requests addressed to
> "chapters people" that might be boring to most people on wikimedia-l but
> could have been publically archived with no problem.
>
> The last "private" thing to happen on that list was discussion of the 2014
> Affiliate Selected Board Seats process - actually not so much the process
> itself but how to deal with an intemperate email from someone from the
> English Wikipedia Signpost who was threatening to write an article about
> the process being an undemocratic sham.  Apart from that we are stretching
> back into 2013 and the death throes of the WCA before anyone said anything
> interesting on the list.
>
> On the subject of email lists, internal-l which is meant to be "chapters
> plus WMF staff" has had virtually no traffic for literally years. There was
> at one point a limit on the number of representatives of chapters that
> could be on internal-l (and IIRC on the chapters list) but that never
> really served any purpose (it certainly didn't improve the signal to noise
> ratio...)
>
> What does all of this mean? I think it's pretty clear that broad-based
> private-access lists aren't serving any purpose. My preferred option would
> be to either ditch the Chapters mailing list or make it announce-only,
> scrap Internal-l entirely, and have an "affiliates" list that is open.
>
> Chris
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 7:21 PM, Gregory Varnum <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> There has already been discussion amongst some affiliates about this issue
>> (including one on Meta-Wiki) - which is where this comes from.
>>
>> I suggest we leave it private for now and see what the affiliates on the
>> list would like to do.
>>
>> I disagree with your sentiment that none of the 10 points require privacy.
>> One of them is discussing affiliate-specific issues - which might include
>> financial or privacy issues facing an affiliates, an interaction with the
>> WMF, or advice on discussing an issue with the broader community. My
>> understanding is that there is a fear people may be more reserved in
>> discussing topics if their comments are up for public discussion.
>>
>> If private lists or wikis were a new concept, I think the expectation
>> might be something more fair to proceed with. However, there are several
>> private lists already in use, and as stated, this is in response to
>> requests from affiliates. That request included that the list be made
>> private, which seems reasonable.
>>
>> Ultimately, I do not feel comfortable making this decision for the
>> affiliates, and since they initially requested it be private, I would like
>> to respect that and allow them to discuss it more.
>>
>> I agree that having a discussion about how we achieve transparency is
>> worth doing. However, starting that discussion (or restarting it I suppose)
>> by imposing a new measure that was specifically not wanted by the target
>> audience of that resource is not the best way to move things forward. The
>> end result would likely be that they wind up not using the list as much, or
>> create a separate list to fulfill their initial request. I would like to
>> avoid that.
>>
>> -greg
>>
>>
>>> On Oct 19, 2015, at 1:56 PM, Sam Klein <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> +1 for public archives to start.  Private lists are almost never made
>>> public later, even where there's no need for privacy.
>>>
>>> A more transparent alternative is to make any list publicly-archived
>>> (archives world-readable, even if membership and ability to post to the
>>> list is restricted), while setting it up and discussing its purpose.  If
>>> list members have specific uses that would require privacy, that purpose
>>> can drive a decision to make it private. Then at least those founding
>>> discussions and the reason for list privacy are visible to others.
>>>
>>> The converse doesn't happen.  The only people whose voices count in a
>>> decision to make a list public are generally those already on the list.
>>> And they have access, so they have no pressing need to review whether its
>>> archives should be public.
>>>
>>> Gregory Varnum writes:
>>>> the whole point of creating it would be defeated.
>>>
>>> Well, Carlos mentioned 10 uses for the list, none of which need private
>>> discussion. It sounds like you're saying an 11th is "encouraging
>> affiliates
>>> who don't currently write about their work and experiences, to do so" and
>>> you think a significant number will only do so if their messages are not
>>> publicly visible or archived.
>>>
>>> The downside is that you defined the list very broadly, also encouraging
>>> people who currently write about their work publicly to start using this
>>> new list: so now those thoughts will be lost to the larger community
>>> forever.  And the majority of outreach projects, event organizers, local
>>> communities, and groups (which aren't interested in going through a
>> formal
>>> recognition process) will be walled out.
>>>
>>> SJ
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 1:18 PM, Gregory Varnum <
>> [hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Our current plan is to bring this up with the list once there is a good
>>>> number of people on it.
>>>>
>>>> Given that the list is for affiliates, our feeling is that it is best
>> for
>>>> them to decide how they would like to use the list. If a structure is
>>>> imposed on them, it is less likely they will use the list, and the whole
>>>> point of creating it would be defeated. Since there were requests for
>> the
>>>> list to be private, it seemed easier to start from that point and make
>>>> changes based on the consensus of those we hope will utilize the list
>> most.
>>>>
>>>> -greg (User:Varnent)
>>>> Vice Chair, Affiliations Committee
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Oct 19, 2015, at 1:10 PM, Ed Erhart <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I too question the need for a private mailing list. We should require
>>>> more
>>>>> than a just a "consistent request" before we reduce transparency and
>>>> create
>>>>> yet another walled garden away from the community.
>>>>>
>>>>> --Ed
>>>>> On Oct 16, 2015 12:07 AM, "Pine W" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Got it. Thanks Varnent.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regarding the privacy question: I'm sort of thinking that if we really
>>>> want
>>>>>> to keep the new list private for legal or other reasons, it should be
>>>> run
>>>>>> outside of WMF servers like the chapters list is. On the other hand,
>> if
>>>> the
>>>>>> purpose of the new list is to facilitate discussion among affiliates
>> in
>>>> a
>>>>>> smaller and less public group while still being open to WMF employees
>>>> to a
>>>>>> limited degree, then the hosting proposed here makes sense.
>> Personally,
>>>> I
>>>>>> get the sense that the affiliate and WMF relationships have generally
>>>>>> (there are exceptions) warmed a bit over the past couple of years as
>>>>>> affiliate governance and leadership have evolved and as WMF's
>> evaluation
>>>>>> capacity has improved, so I'm fine with the new design. Thanks for
>>>> working
>>>>>> on this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Pine
>>>>>> On Oct 15, 2015 8:55 PM, "Gregory Varnum" <[hidden email]>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hey Pine,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As you know, AffCom started looking into this list after some
>>>> discussions
>>>>>>> with affiliates in Berlin, Wikimania, and at that page you referred
>> to.
>>>>>> We
>>>>>>> did talk with that list’s moderators about potentially reusing that
>>>> list
>>>>>>> (largely why the creation of this list took awhile). However,
>>>> ultimately,
>>>>>>> we decided to proceed with the creation of this list.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The old list is not on Wikimedia servers or officially connected to
>>>>>>> AffCom, so I cannot speak to its future. However, it has becoming
>>>>>>> increasingly inactive, is limited to chapters (so excludes a majority
>>>> of
>>>>>>> our affiliates), and not something we have promoted recently. My
>>>> personal
>>>>>>> hope is that this new broader list replaces that one over time, but
>>>> that
>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> not something we can “force” as it’s not a resource we officially
>> help
>>>>>>> manage.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -greg (User:Varnent)
>>>>>>> Vice Chair, Affiliations Committee
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Oct 15, 2015, at 5:19 PM, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Carlos,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Can you clarify how this list relates to the existing chapters
>> mailing
>>>>>>>> list? (Also, please see the discussion at
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Affiliates_Network#Mailing_list_request_for_comment
>>>>>>>> ).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Pine
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 2:04 PM, Carlos M. Colina <
>>>>>>> [hidden email]>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On behalf of the Affiliations Committe, I am pleased to introduce
>> the
>>>>>>>>> launch of the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list, which is
>> basically a
>>>>>>> place
>>>>>>>>> for all the affiliates (chapters, thematic organizations, user
>>>> groups)
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> discuss issues related to affiliates, make announcements to other
>>>>>>>>> affiliates, and collaborate on activities and community-wide
>> events.
>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>> idea is to help facilitate the dialogue affiliates across our
>>>>>> movement,
>>>>>>>>> plus collaborative discussions like community-wide activities,
>> joint
>>>>>>>>> edit-a-thons, regional conferences, blog/report posts, or other
>>>>>>>>> communications from affiliates.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Each Wikimedia movement affiliate is allocated three spots on the
>>>>>>> mailing
>>>>>>>>> list. All affiliates may contact the Affiliations Committee to
>>>> request
>>>>>>>>> additional spots if needed.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Please find a bit more information on Meta:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_movement_affiliates/Affiliates_mailing_list
>>>>>>>>> and do not hesitate contacting us if you have further questions.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>> Carlos
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> "*Jülüjain wane mmakat* ein kapülain tü alijunakalirua jee
>>>>>> wayuukanairua
>>>>>>>>> junain ekerolaa alümüin supüshuwayale etijaanaka. Ayatashi waya
>>>>>> junain."
>>>>>>>>> Carlos M. Colina
>>>>>>>>> Socio, A.C. Wikimedia Venezuela | RIF J-40129321-2 |
>>>>>>> www.wikimedia.org.ve
>>>>>>>>> <http://wikimedia.org.ve>
>>>>>>>>> Chair, Wikimedia Foundation Affiliations Committee
>>>>>>>>> Phone: +972-52-4869915
>>>>>>>>> Twitter: @maor_x
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>>>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>>>> Unsubscribe:
>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>>>>>> ,
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]
>> ?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>>> Unsubscribe:
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>>>> ,
>>>>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>> Unsubscribe:
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>>>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>> ,
>>>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Samuel Klein          @metasj          w:user:sj          +1 617 529
>> 4266
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>> [hidden email]
>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>> [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Introducing the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list

Keegan Peterzell
On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 2:17 PM, Gregory Varnum <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Chris - and I suspect others - who are already welcome to join this list -
> are why I think it is not a foregone conclusion that it will be kept
> private.
>
> Remember that we have a diverse group of 80+ affiliates. It may in fact
> not be that the will of the ones who requested it represents the will of
> everyone. However, I am not personally comfortably declaring that on their
> behalf. I would prefer to allow them to discuss it and go from there.
>
> -greg


​I feel it's now time for the obligatory "Please discuss this on meta if we
want to talk about transparency" post.

<
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_movement_affiliates/Affiliates_mailing_list>




--
~Keegan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan

This is my personal email address. Everything sent from this email address
is in a personal capacity.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Introducing the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list

Gregory Varnum-2
There was already a discussion on this list and its privacy:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Affiliates_Network#Mailing_list_request_for_comment <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Affiliates_Network#Mailing_list_request_for_comment>

I suggest building on that rather than starting a whole new one.

-greg


> On Oct 19, 2015, at 3:24 PM, Keegan Peterzell <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 2:17 PM, Gregory Varnum <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> Chris - and I suspect others - who are already welcome to join this list -
>> are why I think it is not a foregone conclusion that it will be kept
>> private.
>>
>> Remember that we have a diverse group of 80+ affiliates. It may in fact
>> not be that the will of the ones who requested it represents the will of
>> everyone. However, I am not personally comfortably declaring that on their
>> behalf. I would prefer to allow them to discuss it and go from there.
>>
>> -greg
>
>
> ​I feel it's now time for the obligatory "Please discuss this on meta if we
> want to talk about transparency" post.
>
> <
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_movement_affiliates/Affiliates_mailing_list>
> ​
>
>
>
> --
> ~Keegan
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan
>
> This is my personal email address. Everything sent from this email address
> is in a personal capacity.
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Introducing the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list

Carlos M. Colina
In reply to this post by Gregory Varnum-2
Like Greg explained, the request to have such a list came *from the
affiliates* themselves. So why force it to become another wikimedia-l?

M.

El 19/10/2015 a las 09:21 p.m., Gregory Varnum escribió:

> There has already been discussion amongst some affiliates about this issue (including one on Meta-Wiki) - which is where this comes from.
>
> I suggest we leave it private for now and see what the affiliates on the list would like to do.
>
> I disagree with your sentiment that none of the 10 points require privacy. One of them is discussing affiliate-specific issues - which might include financial or privacy issues facing an affiliates, an interaction with the WMF, or advice on discussing an issue with the broader community. My understanding is that there is a fear people may be more reserved in discussing topics if their comments are up for public discussion.
>
> If private lists or wikis were a new concept, I think the expectation might be something more fair to proceed with. However, there are several private lists already in use, and as stated, this is in response to requests from affiliates. That request included that the list be made private, which seems reasonable.
>
> Ultimately, I do not feel comfortable making this decision for the affiliates, and since they initially requested it be private, I would like to respect that and allow them to discuss it more.
>
> I agree that having a discussion about how we achieve transparency is worth doing. However, starting that discussion (or restarting it I suppose) by imposing a new measure that was specifically not wanted by the target audience of that resource is not the best way to move things forward. The end result would likely be that they wind up not using the list as much, or create a separate list to fulfill their initial request. I would like to avoid that.
>
> -greg
>
>
>> On Oct 19, 2015, at 1:56 PM, Sam Klein <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> +1 for public archives to start.  Private lists are almost never made
>> public later, even where there's no need for privacy.
>>
>> A more transparent alternative is to make any list publicly-archived
>> (archives world-readable, even if membership and ability to post to the
>> list is restricted), while setting it up and discussing its purpose.  If
>> list members have specific uses that would require privacy, that purpose
>> can drive a decision to make it private. Then at least those founding
>> discussions and the reason for list privacy are visible to others.
>>
>> The converse doesn't happen.  The only people whose voices count in a
>> decision to make a list public are generally those already on the list.
>> And they have access, so they have no pressing need to review whether its
>> archives should be public.
>>
>> Gregory Varnum writes:
>>> the whole point of creating it would be defeated.
>> Well, Carlos mentioned 10 uses for the list, none of which need private
>> discussion. It sounds like you're saying an 11th is "encouraging affiliates
>> who don't currently write about their work and experiences, to do so" and
>> you think a significant number will only do so if their messages are not
>> publicly visible or archived.
>>
>> The downside is that you defined the list very broadly, also encouraging
>> people who currently write about their work publicly to start using this
>> new list: so now those thoughts will be lost to the larger community
>> forever.  And the majority of outreach projects, event organizers, local
>> communities, and groups (which aren't interested in going through a formal
>> recognition process) will be walled out.
>>
>> SJ
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 1:18 PM, Gregory Varnum <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Our current plan is to bring this up with the list once there is a good
>>> number of people on it.
>>>
>>> Given that the list is for affiliates, our feeling is that it is best for
>>> them to decide how they would like to use the list. If a structure is
>>> imposed on them, it is less likely they will use the list, and the whole
>>> point of creating it would be defeated. Since there were requests for the
>>> list to be private, it seemed easier to start from that point and make
>>> changes based on the consensus of those we hope will utilize the list most.
>>>
>>> -greg (User:Varnent)
>>> Vice Chair, Affiliations Committee
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Oct 19, 2015, at 1:10 PM, Ed Erhart <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I too question the need for a private mailing list. We should require
>>> more
>>>> than a just a "consistent request" before we reduce transparency and
>>> create
>>>> yet another walled garden away from the community.
>>>>
>>>> --Ed
>>>> On Oct 16, 2015 12:07 AM, "Pine W" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Got it. Thanks Varnent.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regarding the privacy question: I'm sort of thinking that if we really
>>> want
>>>>> to keep the new list private for legal or other reasons, it should be
>>> run
>>>>> outside of WMF servers like the chapters list is. On the other hand, if
>>> the
>>>>> purpose of the new list is to facilitate discussion among affiliates in
>>> a
>>>>> smaller and less public group while still being open to WMF employees
>>> to a
>>>>> limited degree, then the hosting proposed here makes sense. Personally,
>>> I
>>>>> get the sense that the affiliate and WMF relationships have generally
>>>>> (there are exceptions) warmed a bit over the past couple of years as
>>>>> affiliate governance and leadership have evolved and as WMF's evaluation
>>>>> capacity has improved, so I'm fine with the new design. Thanks for
>>> working
>>>>> on this.
>>>>>
>>>>> Pine
>>>>> On Oct 15, 2015 8:55 PM, "Gregory Varnum" <[hidden email]>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hey Pine,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As you know, AffCom started looking into this list after some
>>> discussions
>>>>>> with affiliates in Berlin, Wikimania, and at that page you referred to.
>>>>> We
>>>>>> did talk with that list’s moderators about potentially reusing that
>>> list
>>>>>> (largely why the creation of this list took awhile). However,
>>> ultimately,
>>>>>> we decided to proceed with the creation of this list.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The old list is not on Wikimedia servers or officially connected to
>>>>>> AffCom, so I cannot speak to its future. However, it has becoming
>>>>>> increasingly inactive, is limited to chapters (so excludes a majority
>>> of
>>>>>> our affiliates), and not something we have promoted recently. My
>>> personal
>>>>>> hope is that this new broader list replaces that one over time, but
>>> that
>>>>> is
>>>>>> not something we can “force” as it’s not a resource we officially help
>>>>>> manage.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -greg (User:Varnent)
>>>>>> Vice Chair, Affiliations Committee
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Oct 15, 2015, at 5:19 PM, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Carlos,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Can you clarify how this list relates to the existing chapters mailing
>>>>>>> list? (Also, please see the discussion at
>>>>>>>
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Affiliates_Network#Mailing_list_request_for_comment
>>>>>>> ).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Pine
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 2:04 PM, Carlos M. Colina <
>>>>>> [hidden email]>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On behalf of the Affiliations Committe, I am pleased to introduce the
>>>>>>>> launch of the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list, which is basically a
>>>>>> place
>>>>>>>> for all the affiliates (chapters, thematic organizations, user
>>> groups)
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> discuss issues related to affiliates, make announcements to other
>>>>>>>> affiliates, and collaborate on activities and community-wide events.
>>>>> The
>>>>>>>> idea is to help facilitate the dialogue affiliates across our
>>>>> movement,
>>>>>>>> plus collaborative discussions like community-wide activities, joint
>>>>>>>> edit-a-thons, regional conferences, blog/report posts, or other
>>>>>>>> communications from affiliates.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Each Wikimedia movement affiliate is allocated three spots on the
>>>>>> mailing
>>>>>>>> list. All affiliates may contact the Affiliations Committee to
>>> request
>>>>>>>> additional spots if needed.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Please find a bit more information on Meta:
>>>>>>>>
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_movement_affiliates/Affiliates_mailing_list
>>>>>>>> and do not hesitate contacting us if you have further questions.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>> Carlos
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> "*Jülüjain wane mmakat* ein kapülain tü alijunakalirua jee
>>>>> wayuukanairua
>>>>>>>> junain ekerolaa alümüin supüshuwayale etijaanaka. Ayatashi waya
>>>>> junain."
>>>>>>>> Carlos M. Colina
>>>>>>>> Socio, A.C. Wikimedia Venezuela | RIF J-40129321-2 |
>>>>>> www.wikimedia.org.ve
>>>>>>>> <http://wikimedia.org.ve>
>>>>>>>> Chair, Wikimedia Foundation Affiliations Committee
>>>>>>>> Phone: +972-52-4869915
>>>>>>>> Twitter: @maor_x
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>>> Unsubscribe:
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>>>>> ,
>>>>>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>>> ,
>>>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> [hidden email]
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>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Samuel Klein          @metasj          w:user:sj          +1 617 529 4266
>> _______________________________________________
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>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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--
"*Jülüjain wane mmakat* ein kapülain tü alijunakalirua jee wayuukanairua
junain ekerolaa alümüin supüshuwayale etijaanaka. Ayatashi waya junain."
Carlos M. Colina
Socio, A.C. Wikimedia Venezuela | RIF J-40129321-2 |
www.wikimedia.org.ve <http://wikimedia.org.ve>
Chair, Wikimedia Foundation Affiliations Committee
Phone: +972-52-4869915
Twitter: @maor_x
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Introducing the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list

Ilario Valdelli
In reply to this post by Chris Keating-2
Hi all,
I support Chris' arguments and I would add some points.

As administrator of the chapters mailing list I think that the best is
to recover some "historical memory", which is never regrettable.
Considering that we are going to celebrate several year of birthday of
Wikipedia or of Wikimedia projects, I think that the "historical memory"
is more than an asset.

I personally can support the creation of a mailing list like this for
several reasons:

1) the chapters mailing list is closed for a specific reason
2) users groups cannot be accepted for a specif reason, even if there is
a strong pressure
3) The chapters mailing list is hard to maintain because, as closed
mailing list, the update and the verification requires time and
workload, and this workload is manageable only if there is a limited
number of subscriptions

The chapters mailing list exists *only* to assure a neutral (and this
word makes sense) and a "demilitarized zone" to discuss and to announce
the selection of the WMF's board members assigned to the chapters.

I would not open here a long discussion about the process or about the
assignments to the chapters of these two seats (not all WMF board
members are selected by the community), the chapters are considered as a
stakeholder and the chapters asked to have a place like this. So please
discuss in other places this item.

So the point 1) is justified.

The users groups cannot be accepted until the users groups cannot
participate in this selection because the main aim of the mailing list
is exactly that. So the point 2) is justified.

I personally can assure that to keep this place "neutral" there is a
long verification of the eligibility of the members and it requires a
lot of time.

The chapters mailing list has very low traffic because is used also to
make some announcements (for instance the Wikimedia Conference) because
not all chapters members follow Wikimedia-l.

Except these two utilization, there are nothing else.

At this point I would correct my sentence and I would say that: "I
personally can support the creation of a mailing list" but I would add
"not a twin of the chapters mailing list".

A closed and limited mailing list will be a simple replication of the
chapters mailing list except the big workload to manage more
subscriptions. It makes sense and can complete the chapters mailing list
only if it is "open" and "transparent". Anyone who would open an user
group can follow it, any chapters who would use the chapters mailing
list for a use different to the main one, would be addressed to the open
mailing list.

And as personal hint I suggest to keep it open because the management of
a close mailing list with a high number of eligible subscribers may
require a lot of time and verification.

Kind regards


On 19.10.2015 21:12, Chris Keating wrote:

> Looking at the current (private) chapters' list, for at least a year 90%+
> of the traffic has been announcements that were cross-posted to
> Wikimedia-l. The other 10% is invitations and requests addressed to
> "chapters people" that might be boring to most people on wikimedia-l but
> could have been publically archived with no problem.
>
> The last "private" thing to happen on that list was discussion of the 2014
> Affiliate Selected Board Seats process - actually not so much the process
> itself but how to deal with an intemperate email from someone from the
> English Wikipedia Signpost who was threatening to write an article about
> the process being an undemocratic sham.  Apart from that we are stretching
> back into 2013 and the death throes of the WCA before anyone said anything
> interesting on the list.
>
> On the subject of email lists, internal-l which is meant to be "chapters
> plus WMF staff" has had virtually no traffic for literally years. There was
> at one point a limit on the number of representatives of chapters that
> could be on internal-l (and IIRC on the chapters list) but that never
> really served any purpose (it certainly didn't improve the signal to noise
> ratio...)
>
> What does all of this mean? I think it's pretty clear that broad-based
> private-access lists aren't serving any purpose. My preferred option would
> be to either ditch the Chapters mailing list or make it announce-only,
> scrap Internal-l entirely, and have an "affiliates" list that is open.
>
> Chris
>
>


--
Ilario Valdelli
Wikimedia CH
Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
Tel: +41764821371
http://www.wikimedia.ch


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Introducing the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list

Romaine Wiki-2
In reply to this post by Ed Erhart-2
I do question why some members from the community should be involved in
chapter/affiliates issues.
If affiliates want to communicate with each other, without interference
from individual users, they had no way to do such until this list was
created.

And there is no transparency reduction. The suggestion that with creating
this list the transparency is reduced is an illusion. If affiliates want to
communicate with only affiliates, they will found another way to do that
without doing that publicly, and that is much less transparent.

Earlier on the chapters mailing list it appeared there is a enough support
for a closed list.

Wikimedia is a large movement. In that movement a lot of things are done
and a various set of tasks are performed. Each of those people doing the
same tasks like to be able to communicate with other people doing the same
task(s). To communicate effectively e-mail lists are created. For example,
also Wikipedia admins have multiple private mailing lists, arbcom, OTRS,
Stewards, etc. They all have sensitive data, but they also just like to be
able to share experiences, ask questions with people who do the same tasks,
and have some basic level of communication. This communication is essential
for doing a task and improving the quality in how this task is executed.
This communication will happen anyway. But they are two ways to organise
that: organised in a closed mailing list or not organised with people
communicate only directly with excluding many relevant people.

No, there is not a new another walled garden, it is just a better organised
walled garden that exists already for a long time in other forms.

Romaine



2015-10-19 19:10 GMT+02:00 Ed Erhart <[hidden email]>:

> I too question the need for a private mailing list. We should require more
> than a just a "consistent request" before we reduce transparency and create
> yet another walled garden away from the community.
>
> --Ed
> On Oct 16, 2015 12:07 AM, "Pine W" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Got it. Thanks Varnent.
> >
> > Regarding the privacy question: I'm sort of thinking that if we really
> want
> > to keep the new list private for legal or other reasons, it should be run
> > outside of WMF servers like the chapters list is. On the other hand, if
> the
> > purpose of the new list is to facilitate discussion among affiliates in a
> > smaller and less public group while still being open to WMF employees to
> a
> > limited degree, then the hosting proposed here makes sense. Personally, I
> > get the sense that the affiliate and WMF relationships have generally
> > (there are exceptions) warmed a bit over the past couple of years as
> > affiliate governance and leadership have evolved and as WMF's evaluation
> > capacity has improved, so I'm fine with the new design. Thanks for
> working
> > on this.
> >
> > Pine
> > On Oct 15, 2015 8:55 PM, "Gregory Varnum" <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hey Pine,
> > >
> > > As you know, AffCom started looking into this list after some
> discussions
> > > with affiliates in Berlin, Wikimania, and at that page you referred to.
> > We
> > > did talk with that list’s moderators about potentially reusing that
> list
> > > (largely why the creation of this list took awhile). However,
> ultimately,
> > > we decided to proceed with the creation of this list.
> > >
> > > The old list is not on Wikimedia servers or officially connected to
> > > AffCom, so I cannot speak to its future. However, it has becoming
> > > increasingly inactive, is limited to chapters (so excludes a majority
> of
> > > our affiliates), and not something we have promoted recently. My
> personal
> > > hope is that this new broader list replaces that one over time, but
> that
> > is
> > > not something we can “force” as it’s not a resource we officially help
> > > manage.
> > >
> > > -greg (User:Varnent)
> > > Vice Chair, Affiliations Committee
> > >
> > >
> > > > On Oct 15, 2015, at 5:19 PM, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi Carlos,
> > > >
> > > > Can you clarify how this list relates to the existing chapters
> mailing
> > > > list? (Also, please see the discussion at
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Affiliates_Network#Mailing_list_request_for_comment
> > > > ).
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >
> > > > Pine
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 2:04 PM, Carlos M. Colina <
> > > [hidden email]>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Dear all,
> > > >>
> > > >> On behalf of the Affiliations Committe, I am pleased to introduce
> the
> > > >> launch of the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list, which is basically
> a
> > > place
> > > >> for all the affiliates (chapters, thematic organizations, user
> groups)
> > > to
> > > >> discuss issues related to affiliates, make announcements to other
> > > >> affiliates, and collaborate on activities and community-wide events.
> > The
> > > >> idea is to help facilitate the dialogue affiliates across our
> > movement,
> > > >> plus collaborative discussions like community-wide activities, joint
> > > >> edit-a-thons, regional conferences, blog/report posts, or other
> > > >> communications from affiliates.
> > > >>
> > > >> Each Wikimedia movement affiliate is allocated three spots on the
> > > mailing
> > > >> list. All affiliates may contact the Affiliations Committee to
> request
> > > >> additional spots if needed.
> > > >>
> > > >> Please find a bit more information on Meta:
> > > >>
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_movement_affiliates/Affiliates_mailing_list
> > > >> and do not hesitate contacting us if you have further questions.
> > > >>
> > > >> Regards,
> > > >> Carlos
> > > >> --
> > > >> "*Jülüjain wane mmakat* ein kapülain tü alijunakalirua jee
> > wayuukanairua
> > > >> junain ekerolaa alümüin supüshuwayale etijaanaka. Ayatashi waya
> > junain."
> > > >> Carlos M. Colina
> > > >> Socio, A.C. Wikimedia Venezuela | RIF J-40129321-2 |
> > > www.wikimedia.org.ve
> > > >> <http://wikimedia.org.ve>
> > > >> Chair, Wikimedia Foundation Affiliations Committee
> > > >> Phone: +972-52-4869915
> > > >> Twitter: @maor_x
> > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > >> [hidden email]
> > > >> Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > ,
> > > >> <mailto:[hidden email]
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Introducing the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list

Romaine Wiki-2
In reply to this post by Ed Erhart-2
Ow yes, I remember a affiliate specific issue that was not handled
appropriate by some users from outside any affiliate.

And also this discussion here doesn't give a comfortable feeling (in my
opinion) to affiliates to do (always) a public discussion. If I as
affiliate member, want to have feedback from my colleagues, I am not
waiting for a hostile environment.

The problem here as well is that people with certain tasks, like running an
affiliate, do have the need for communication with people with the same
task. That is the basic reason for setting up a mailing list. If you can't
imagine why people with the same task should communicate internally, it
certainly should not up to you to decide due a lack of experience.
Years ago I could not imagine why certain people with a certain task wanted
to communicate with each other internally, until I came in that position
myself. If I want feedback in how other affiliates do certain things, I am
not waiting for other people to scare those affiliates away with their
messages.

And by the way, having a way to communicate internally (like a closed
mailing list) does not create a walled garden away from the community.
The thing that does create a walled garden away from the community is by
saying that some people are separate because they have a certain task. The
"we versus them" thoughts.

And what is called a "community" is much much larger than the small amount
of people on the mailing list, that is typically biased as result of hard
discussions that occur from time to time.

Romaine


2015-10-19 20:54 GMT+02:00 Ed Erhart <[hidden email]>:

> You've set up a strawman argument, Greg, and your solution is suboptimal.
> This is a community issue, as SJ correctly notes, and it should be
> discussed with the community. Leaving it private "for now" and polling the
> list affiliates (or going back to a virtually unknown Meta page) is going
> to result in the list staying closed—do we really believe that anyone there
> is going to vote to publicize their own discussions?
>
> Are there specific examples of these "affiliate-specific issues" occurring
> in the past? There are very few things that I can think of that should be
> private, and one of those is privacy issues, which shouldn't be discussed
> on any mailing lists (open or closed). Leaks can and do happen.
>
> If a chapter needs private advice "on discussing an issue with the broader
> community", they might want to look into breaking down the walled garden
> they're already in.
>
> --Ed
>
> On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 2:21 PM, Gregory Varnum <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > There has already been discussion amongst some affiliates about this
> issue
> > (including one on Meta-Wiki) - which is where this comes from.
> >
> > I suggest we leave it private for now and see what the affiliates on the
> > list would like to do.
> >
> > I disagree with your sentiment that none of the 10 points require
> privacy.
> > One of them is discussing affiliate-specific issues - which might include
> > financial or privacy issues facing an affiliates, an interaction with the
> > WMF, or advice on discussing an issue with the broader community. My
> > understanding is that there is a fear people may be more reserved in
> > discussing topics if their comments are up for public discussion.
> >
> > If private lists or wikis were a new concept, I think the expectation
> > might be something more fair to proceed with. However, there are several
> > private lists already in use, and as stated, this is in response to
> > requests from affiliates. That request included that the list be made
> > private, which seems reasonable.
> >
> > Ultimately, I do not feel comfortable making this decision for the
> > affiliates, and since they initially requested it be private, I would
> like
> > to respect that and allow them to discuss it more.
> >
> > I agree that having a discussion about how we achieve transparency is
> > worth doing. However, starting that discussion (or restarting it I
> suppose)
> > by imposing a new measure that was specifically not wanted by the target
> > audience of that resource is not the best way to move things forward. The
> > end result would likely be that they wind up not using the list as much,
> or
> > create a separate list to fulfill their initial request. I would like to
> > avoid that.
> >
> > -greg
> >
> >
> > > On Oct 19, 2015, at 1:56 PM, Sam Klein <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > +1 for public archives to start.  Private lists are almost never made
> > > public later, even where there's no need for privacy.
> > >
> > > A more transparent alternative is to make any list publicly-archived
> > > (archives world-readable, even if membership and ability to post to the
> > > list is restricted), while setting it up and discussing its purpose.
> If
> > > list members have specific uses that would require privacy, that
> purpose
> > > can drive a decision to make it private. Then at least those founding
> > > discussions and the reason for list privacy are visible to others.
> > >
> > > The converse doesn't happen.  The only people whose voices count in a
> > > decision to make a list public are generally those already on the list.
> > > And they have access, so they have no pressing need to review whether
> its
> > > archives should be public.
> > >
> > > Gregory Varnum writes:
> > >> the whole point of creating it would be defeated.
> > >
> > > Well, Carlos mentioned 10 uses for the list, none of which need private
> > > discussion. It sounds like you're saying an 11th is "encouraging
> > affiliates
> > > who don't currently write about their work and experiences, to do so"
> and
> > > you think a significant number will only do so if their messages are
> not
> > > publicly visible or archived.
> > >
> > > The downside is that you defined the list very broadly, also
> encouraging
> > > people who currently write about their work publicly to start using
> this
> > > new list: so now those thoughts will be lost to the larger community
> > > forever.  And the majority of outreach projects, event organizers,
> local
> > > communities, and groups (which aren't interested in going through a
> > formal
> > > recognition process) will be walled out.
> > >
> > > SJ
> > >
> > > On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 1:18 PM, Gregory Varnum <
> > [hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >> Our current plan is to bring this up with the list once there is a
> good
> > >> number of people on it.
> > >>
> > >> Given that the list is for affiliates, our feeling is that it is best
> > for
> > >> them to decide how they would like to use the list. If a structure is
> > >> imposed on them, it is less likely they will use the list, and the
> whole
> > >> point of creating it would be defeated. Since there were requests for
> > the
> > >> list to be private, it seemed easier to start from that point and make
> > >> changes based on the consensus of those we hope will utilize the list
> > most.
> > >>
> > >> -greg (User:Varnent)
> > >> Vice Chair, Affiliations Committee
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> On Oct 19, 2015, at 1:10 PM, Ed Erhart <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> I too question the need for a private mailing list. We should require
> > >> more
> > >>> than a just a "consistent request" before we reduce transparency and
> > >> create
> > >>> yet another walled garden away from the community.
> > >>>
> > >>> --Ed
> > >>> On Oct 16, 2015 12:07 AM, "Pine W" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> Got it. Thanks Varnent.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Regarding the privacy question: I'm sort of thinking that if we
> really
> > >> want
> > >>>> to keep the new list private for legal or other reasons, it should
> be
> > >> run
> > >>>> outside of WMF servers like the chapters list is. On the other hand,
> > if
> > >> the
> > >>>> purpose of the new list is to facilitate discussion among affiliates
> > in
> > >> a
> > >>>> smaller and less public group while still being open to WMF
> employees
> > >> to a
> > >>>> limited degree, then the hosting proposed here makes sense.
> > Personally,
> > >> I
> > >>>> get the sense that the affiliate and WMF relationships have
> generally
> > >>>> (there are exceptions) warmed a bit over the past couple of years as
> > >>>> affiliate governance and leadership have evolved and as WMF's
> > evaluation
> > >>>> capacity has improved, so I'm fine with the new design. Thanks for
> > >> working
> > >>>> on this.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Pine
> > >>>> On Oct 15, 2015 8:55 PM, "Gregory Varnum" <[hidden email]
> >
> > >>>> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> Hey Pine,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> As you know, AffCom started looking into this list after some
> > >> discussions
> > >>>>> with affiliates in Berlin, Wikimania, and at that page you referred
> > to.
> > >>>> We
> > >>>>> did talk with that list’s moderators about potentially reusing that
> > >> list
> > >>>>> (largely why the creation of this list took awhile). However,
> > >> ultimately,
> > >>>>> we decided to proceed with the creation of this list.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> The old list is not on Wikimedia servers or officially connected to
> > >>>>> AffCom, so I cannot speak to its future. However, it has becoming
> > >>>>> increasingly inactive, is limited to chapters (so excludes a
> majority
> > >> of
> > >>>>> our affiliates), and not something we have promoted recently. My
> > >> personal
> > >>>>> hope is that this new broader list replaces that one over time, but
> > >> that
> > >>>> is
> > >>>>> not something we can “force” as it’s not a resource we officially
> > help
> > >>>>> manage.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> -greg (User:Varnent)
> > >>>>> Vice Chair, Affiliations Committee
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> On Oct 15, 2015, at 5:19 PM, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Hi Carlos,
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Can you clarify how this list relates to the existing chapters
> > mailing
> > >>>>>> list? (Also, please see the discussion at
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Affiliates_Network#Mailing_list_request_for_comment
> > >>>>>> ).
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Thanks,
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Pine
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 2:04 PM, Carlos M. Colina <
> > >>>>> [hidden email]>
> > >>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Dear all,
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> On behalf of the Affiliations Committe, I am pleased to introduce
> > the
> > >>>>>>> launch of the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list, which is
> > basically a
> > >>>>> place
> > >>>>>>> for all the affiliates (chapters, thematic organizations, user
> > >> groups)
> > >>>>> to
> > >>>>>>> discuss issues related to affiliates, make announcements to other
> > >>>>>>> affiliates, and collaborate on activities and community-wide
> > events.
> > >>>> The
> > >>>>>>> idea is to help facilitate the dialogue affiliates across our
> > >>>> movement,
> > >>>>>>> plus collaborative discussions like community-wide activities,
> > joint
> > >>>>>>> edit-a-thons, regional conferences, blog/report posts, or other
> > >>>>>>> communications from affiliates.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Each Wikimedia movement affiliate is allocated three spots on the
> > >>>>> mailing
> > >>>>>>> list. All affiliates may contact the Affiliations Committee to
> > >> request
> > >>>>>>> additional spots if needed.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Please find a bit more information on Meta:
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_movement_affiliates/Affiliates_mailing_list
> > >>>>>>> and do not hesitate contacting us if you have further questions.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Regards,
> > >>>>>>> Carlos
> > >>>>>>> --
> > >>>>>>> "*Jülüjain wane mmakat* ein kapülain tü alijunakalirua jee
> > >>>> wayuukanairua
> > >>>>>>> junain ekerolaa alümüin supüshuwayale etijaanaka. Ayatashi waya
> > >>>> junain."
> > >>>>>>> Carlos M. Colina
> > >>>>>>> Socio, A.C. Wikimedia Venezuela | RIF J-40129321-2 |
> > >>>>> www.wikimedia.org.ve
> > >>>>>>> <http://wikimedia.org.ve>
> > >>>>>>> Chair, Wikimedia Foundation Affiliations Committee
> > >>>>>>> Phone: +972-52-4869915
> > >>>>>>> Twitter: @maor_x
> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Samuel Klein          @metasj          w:user:sj          +1 617 529
> 4266
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