[Wikimedia-l] Issue on Dutch Wikipedia in relation to BLP violating images

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[Wikimedia-l] Issue on Dutch Wikipedia in relation to BLP violating images

Russavia
It is with some degree of sadness that I have to bring this to
wikimedia-l, but it's something that has to be done I am afraid

In December 2011, I dealt with an OTRS complaint by an individual
relating to a photograph of her which was being used in her articles
on Wikipedia. She was not happy with the image.

Inline with the WMF Resolution dealing with images of living
people,[1] I followed: Treat any person who has a complaint about
images of themselves hosted on our projects with patience, kindness,
and respect, and encourage others to do the same.

The image[2] was removed from the article and replaced with another
suitable image. The subject also provided another image via OTRS.[3]

Fast forward to November 2014, and on Dutch Wikipedia an editor known
as "EvilFreD" performed what is known as BTNI reverts over numerous of
my edits going back several years. It's one of the most pathetic
policies on any project, which basically says that with no thought on
how poor an image is, it should never be replaced without two months
of mindless discussion.[4]

EvilFreD has left a message on my talk page and I responded to him
informing him of the complaint about this image.[5] After my revert
noting BLP, another admin, MoiraMoira has left a message on my talk
page.[6] Given the timeframe (2 minutes) it is possible she didn't see
it, so I asked her to please look at the above note to EvilFreD. Her
response: "Hello, I'm very clear here: this is the Dutch wikipedia.
And there is no space to troll or challenge other people. If you
continue this behaviour, a timeout will follow. You should know
better. ~~~~"

My removal, because Moira refused to do so, is met with one of the
most pathetic, trollish comments I have seen;[7] an insistence that I
speak in Dutch, not English. MoiraMoira then immediately protects the
article.

Is this treating people who complaints about themselves with kindness
and respect? Or is there something else going on on Dutch Wikipedia
that I don't care to know about? It's not the first time I have met
such resistance for the removal of problematic images on Dutch
Wikipedia, as was demonstrated here.[8][9]

Given the trollish nature of comments directed towards myself, and the
threats of blocks by MoiraMoira if I dare to challenge them on this
issue, would someone who has the patience to deal with such behaviour
please intervene and deal with this issue. Be mindful, you will need
to speak Dutch, and will also be willing to divulge private
information from OTRS in order to satisfy the people on this project.

Also, please note, that in discussion with the subject she was fine in
having the image kept on Commons, but didn't want it used in her
article in the infobox. I think this is the least we can do for
article subjects on our projects.

Regards

Russavia

[1] http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Resolution:Images_of_identifiable_people
[2] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Justine_bateman_7-10-2007.jpg
[3] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Justine_Bateman_NYC.jpg
[4] https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:BTNI
[5] https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overleg_gebruiker:Russavia#BTNI
[6] https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overleg_gebruiker:Russavia#Bewerkingsoorlog
[7] https://nl.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Justine_Bateman&diff=42577573&oldid=42577394
[8] https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overleg_gebruiker:Russavia#Image_on_Prostitutie_in_Thailand
[9] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:9.000919_Pattaya_streetscene5.jpg

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Issue on Dutch Wikipedia in relation to BLP violating images

Lodewijk
Hi Russavia,

whether or not you are right, please note that you are apparently
considered a troll by the Dutch community, which might have influenced the
exchange.

(I did not read up much on the affair, but I think this is a relevant
observation in general).

Best,
Lodewijk

On Fri, Nov 28, 2014 at 2:47 PM, Russavia <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> It is with some degree of sadness that I have to bring this to
> wikimedia-l, but it's something that has to be done I am afraid
>
> In December 2011, I dealt with an OTRS complaint by an individual
> relating to a photograph of her which was being used in her articles
> on Wikipedia. She was not happy with the image.
>
> Inline with the WMF Resolution dealing with images of living
> people,[1] I followed: Treat any person who has a complaint about
> images of themselves hosted on our projects with patience, kindness,
> and respect, and encourage others to do the same.
>
> The image[2] was removed from the article and replaced with another
> suitable image. The subject also provided another image via OTRS.[3]
>
> Fast forward to November 2014, and on Dutch Wikipedia an editor known
> as "EvilFreD" performed what is known as BTNI reverts over numerous of
> my edits going back several years. It's one of the most pathetic
> policies on any project, which basically says that with no thought on
> how poor an image is, it should never be replaced without two months
> of mindless discussion.[4]
>
> EvilFreD has left a message on my talk page and I responded to him
> informing him of the complaint about this image.[5] After my revert
> noting BLP, another admin, MoiraMoira has left a message on my talk
> page.[6] Given the timeframe (2 minutes) it is possible she didn't see
> it, so I asked her to please look at the above note to EvilFreD. Her
> response: "Hello, I'm very clear here: this is the Dutch wikipedia.
> And there is no space to troll or challenge other people. If you
> continue this behaviour, a timeout will follow. You should know
> better. ~~~~"
>
> My removal, because Moira refused to do so, is met with one of the
> most pathetic, trollish comments I have seen;[7] an insistence that I
> speak in Dutch, not English. MoiraMoira then immediately protects the
> article.
>
> Is this treating people who complaints about themselves with kindness
> and respect? Or is there something else going on on Dutch Wikipedia
> that I don't care to know about? It's not the first time I have met
> such resistance for the removal of problematic images on Dutch
> Wikipedia, as was demonstrated here.[8][9]
>
> Given the trollish nature of comments directed towards myself, and the
> threats of blocks by MoiraMoira if I dare to challenge them on this
> issue, would someone who has the patience to deal with such behaviour
> please intervene and deal with this issue. Be mindful, you will need
> to speak Dutch, and will also be willing to divulge private
> information from OTRS in order to satisfy the people on this project.
>
> Also, please note, that in discussion with the subject she was fine in
> having the image kept on Commons, but didn't want it used in her
> article in the infobox. I think this is the least we can do for
> article subjects on our projects.
>
> Regards
>
> Russavia
>
> [1]
> http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Resolution:Images_of_identifiable_people
> [2] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Justine_bateman_7-10-2007.jpg
> [3] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Justine_Bateman_NYC.jpg
> [4] https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:BTNI
> [5] https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overleg_gebruiker:Russavia#BTNI
> [6]
> https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overleg_gebruiker:Russavia#Bewerkingsoorlog
> [7]
> https://nl.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Justine_Bateman&diff=42577573&oldid=42577394
> [8]
> https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overleg_gebruiker:Russavia#Image_on_Prostitutie_in_Thailand
> [9]
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:9.000919_Pattaya_streetscene5.jpg
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Issue on Dutch Wikipedia in relation to BLP violating images

Michel Vuijlsteke-2
In reply to this post by Russavia
Quick and easy: don't bother with the Dutch Wikipedia. It is one of the
more toxic environments on the internet. :)

On 28 November 2014 at 14:47, Russavia <[hidden email]> wrote:

> It is with some degree of sadness that I have to bring this to
> wikimedia-l, but it's something that has to be done I am afraid
>
> In December 2011, I dealt with an OTRS complaint by an individual
> relating to a photograph of her which was being used in her articles
> on Wikipedia. She was not happy with the image.
>
> Inline with the WMF Resolution dealing with images of living
> people,[1] I followed: Treat any person who has a complaint about
> images of themselves hosted on our projects with patience, kindness,
> and respect, and encourage others to do the same.
>
> The image[2] was removed from the article and replaced with another
> suitable image. The subject also provided another image via OTRS.[3]
>
> Fast forward to November 2014, and on Dutch Wikipedia an editor known
> as "EvilFreD" performed what is known as BTNI reverts over numerous of
> my edits going back several years. It's one of the most pathetic
> policies on any project, which basically says that with no thought on
> how poor an image is, it should never be replaced without two months
> of mindless discussion.[4]
>
> EvilFreD has left a message on my talk page and I responded to him
> informing him of the complaint about this image.[5] After my revert
> noting BLP, another admin, MoiraMoira has left a message on my talk
> page.[6] Given the timeframe (2 minutes) it is possible she didn't see
> it, so I asked her to please look at the above note to EvilFreD. Her
> response: "Hello, I'm very clear here: this is the Dutch wikipedia.
> And there is no space to troll or challenge other people. If you
> continue this behaviour, a timeout will follow. You should know
> better. ~~~~"
>
> My removal, because Moira refused to do so, is met with one of the
> most pathetic, trollish comments I have seen;[7] an insistence that I
> speak in Dutch, not English. MoiraMoira then immediately protects the
> article.
>
> Is this treating people who complaints about themselves with kindness
> and respect? Or is there something else going on on Dutch Wikipedia
> that I don't care to know about? It's not the first time I have met
> such resistance for the removal of problematic images on Dutch
> Wikipedia, as was demonstrated here.[8][9]
>
> Given the trollish nature of comments directed towards myself, and the
> threats of blocks by MoiraMoira if I dare to challenge them on this
> issue, would someone who has the patience to deal with such behaviour
> please intervene and deal with this issue. Be mindful, you will need
> to speak Dutch, and will also be willing to divulge private
> information from OTRS in order to satisfy the people on this project.
>
> Also, please note, that in discussion with the subject she was fine in
> having the image kept on Commons, but didn't want it used in her
> article in the infobox. I think this is the least we can do for
> article subjects on our projects.
>
> Regards
>
> Russavia
>
> [1]
> http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Resolution:Images_of_identifiable_people
> [2] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Justine_bateman_7-10-2007.jpg
> [3] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Justine_Bateman_NYC.jpg
> [4] https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:BTNI
> [5] https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overleg_gebruiker:Russavia#BTNI
> [6]
> https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overleg_gebruiker:Russavia#Bewerkingsoorlog
> [7]
> https://nl.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Justine_Bateman&diff=42577573&oldid=42577394
> [8]
> https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overleg_gebruiker:Russavia#Image_on_Prostitutie_in_Thailand
> [9]
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:9.000919_Pattaya_streetscene5.jpg
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Issue on Dutch Wikipedia in relation to BLP violating images

Russavia
Michel,

I agree the atmosphere there is extremely toxic.

For the record, I have now been indefinitely blocked on Dutch Wikipedia for
raising serious concerns on Commons about one of their clique. Concerns
which involved incontrovertible evidence that they have been accessing
materials on Commons which was deleted due to privacy concerns and then
passed around to others who wouldn't otherwise have that access.

The unfunny part about it all, is that this only came to light after I
publicly told MoiraMoira that given it was me who deleted privacy related
images on Commons as they related to her, she should have more
understanding on issues when subjects of articles have complaints about
images of themselves. It then lead to that evidence being provided to me
within minutes. The person who provided me the evidence has also been
indefinitely blocked on Dutch Wikipedia, ostensibly for providing me with
the evidence which included the person's first name -- a first name that
was well known to me by way of discussion many years ago when we
"introduced" ourselves privately on IRC.

So, I agree wholeheartedly about their abusive and toxic environment, and
don't really take any notice to those on there who call me a troll, for it
is those people on Dutch Wikipedia who are playing unacceptable games in
outright violation of the WMF Board resolution. They think they are
punishing me, they are not; they are punishing the subject of the article.

Regards,

Russavia


On Sat, Nov 29, 2014 at 4:46 AM, Michel Vuijlsteke <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Quick and easy: don't bother with the Dutch Wikipedia. It is one of the
> more toxic environments on the internet. :)
>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Issue on Dutch Wikipedia in relation to BLP violating images

Kim Bruning

Hmmm,

Is that the fourth or the fifth wiki you are now indeffed from ? ;-)
(I was looking up your illustrious history while chatting with you,
and I admit I lost count somewhere along the way :-P [*])

Checking up on the nl.wikipedia discussions you had, I do agree
that the environment turned toxic pretty quickly ... once
you started throwing around insults like confetti. ;-)

You were trying to get indeffed on purpose, right!?
Only sane explanation.

Wikis are like pokemon, gotta get indeffed from them all!

sincerely,
        Kim Bruning

[*] NSFL WARNING: do not look up why Russavia was decratted on
Commons: NSFL WARNING [**]
[**] I'm not entirely sure why they were *merely* decratted.
This might be a fatal flaw in commons.


On Sat, Nov 29, 2014 at 05:23:30AM +0800, Russavia wrote:

> Michel,
>
> I agree the atmosphere there is extremely toxic.
>
> For the record, I have now been indefinitely blocked on Dutch Wikipedia for
> raising serious concerns on Commons about one of their clique. Concerns
> which involved incontrovertible evidence that they have been accessing
> materials on Commons which was deleted due to privacy concerns and then
> passed around to others who wouldn't otherwise have that access.
>
> The unfunny part about it all, is that this only came to light after I
> publicly told MoiraMoira that given it was me who deleted privacy related
> images on Commons as they related to her, she should have more
> understanding on issues when subjects of articles have complaints about
> images of themselves. It then lead to that evidence being provided to me
> within minutes. The person who provided me the evidence has also been
> indefinitely blocked on Dutch Wikipedia, ostensibly for providing me with
> the evidence which included the person's first name -- a first name that
> was well known to me by way of discussion many years ago when we
> "introduced" ourselves privately on IRC.
>
> So, I agree wholeheartedly about their abusive and toxic environment, and
> don't really take any notice to those on there who call me a troll, for it
> is those people on Dutch Wikipedia who are playing unacceptable games in
> outright violation of the WMF Board resolution. They think they are
> punishing me, they are not; they are punishing the subject of the article.
>
> Regards,
>
> Russavia
>
>
> On Sat, Nov 29, 2014 at 4:46 AM, Michel Vuijlsteke <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Quick and easy: don't bother with the Dutch Wikipedia. It is one of the
> > more toxic environments on the internet. :)
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Issue on Dutch Wikipedia in relation to BLP violating images

Austin Hair
C'mon, Kim, you know better. Keep it on IRC.

Austin

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