[Wikimedia-l] LGBT+ safety considerations for conference venues

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] LGBT+ safety considerations for conference venues

Gerard Meijssen-3
Hoi,
Not going to North Corolina is absolutely fine with me. We do not gain
anything by going there arguably not to any state in the United States.
What Wikimania is, is a platform for propaganda for what we have, what we
do, who we are and how we do what we do. In many countries Wikipedia is not
the house hold name it is in the USA.

Wikimania is not aimed for the English Wikipedia, it is aimed to further
our movement. Not going to places is similar to saying that those other
people, speaking other languages, with an other culture do not matter. They
do.

We should go to Russia, India, South Africa, China. The people of those
countries should matter to us, the people we could share the sum of all
knowledge with.

THAT is what we do, sharing the sum of all knowledge.

When the choice of the venue is only about being safe, we should not go to
the USA (I do not feel safe there), we should go to Germany, to Switzerland
and move the office as well. It is not likely to happen, not what I want
either.

If there is one thing about LBGT, it is that that struggle is still being
fought. Hiding and keeping away does not work. It does not help the LBGT
community. More importantly in this context it does not help the Wikimedia
community. For the latter it is vital to make our message heard.We aim to
share the sum of all knowledge and many people have not even heard of us.
Thank,
      GerardM

On 18 October 2016 at 16:00, Pax Ahimsa Gethen <[hidden email]
> wrote:

> Gerard, this isn't about "holiday destinations", it's about human rights
> and dignity. That's why I emphasized in my original post that I'm concerned
> not only about the safety of conference attendees, but also about those
> living in the host country. The choice of a venue in a location with a poor
> human rights record reflects poorly upon Wikipedia/Wikimedia and our
> mission to share knowledge. There's a reason a number of major companies
> pulled their events and funding out of North Carolina after the restrictive
> restroom laws were passed for example...
>
> - Pax
>
>
>
> On 10/18/16 6:26 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>
>> Hoi,
>> For me safety is to a large extend secondary to what we aim to achieve.
>> Our
>> primary goal is to improve on our primary goal and it is "sharing in the
>> sum of all knowledge". It is not for going to the perfect holiday
>> destination.
>> Thanks,
>>       GerardM
>>
>> On 18 October 2016 at 13:56, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Gerard, could you provide some tangible examples of how other safety
>>> aspects of Wikimania would be compromised if there is any specific
>>> attention paid to the safety of LGBT+ Wikimedians? I cannot imagine
>>> how such a thing could be true.
>>>
>>> Based on my reading, nobody in this thread has asked for the safety of
>>> LGBT+ attendees to be "prioritized" over other safety aspects. Please
>>> don't make it appear as if they have.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Fae
>>>
>>> On 18 October 2016 at 11:42, Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hoi,
>>>> I do care that everybody can come to places where they are safe. All the
>>>> specific LGBT attention to safety is however on many levels problematic
>>>> when we prioritise this over other safety aspects. The big picture for
>>>> me
>>>> is that we need to go to places where bringing Wikipedia and what it
>>>>
>>> stands
>>>
>>>> for the most good. It is why I would go to Russia, to China to India to
>>>> South Africa.
>>>>
>>> --
>>> [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>>>
>>>
> --
> Pax Ahimsa Gethen | http://funcrunch.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
> i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] LGBT+ safety considerations for conference venues

Gerard Meijssen-3
Hoi,
Do you blame me for not feeling safe going to the USA?
Thanks,
     GerardM

On 8 November 2016 at 11:08, Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hoi,
> Not going to North Corolina is absolutely fine with me. We do not gain
> anything by going there arguably not to any state in the United States.
> What Wikimania is, is a platform for propaganda for what we have, what we
> do, who we are and how we do what we do. In many countries Wikipedia is not
> the house hold name it is in the USA.
>
> Wikimania is not aimed for the English Wikipedia, it is aimed to further
> our movement. Not going to places is similar to saying that those other
> people, speaking other languages, with an other culture do not matter. They
> do.
>
> We should go to Russia, India, South Africa, China. The people of those
> countries should matter to us, the people we could share the sum of all
> knowledge with.
>
> THAT is what we do, sharing the sum of all knowledge.
>
> When the choice of the venue is only about being safe, we should not go to
> the USA (I do not feel safe there), we should go to Germany, to Switzerland
> and move the office as well. It is not likely to happen, not what I want
> either.
>
> If there is one thing about LBGT, it is that that struggle is still being
> fought. Hiding and keeping away does not work. It does not help the LBGT
> community. More importantly in this context it does not help the Wikimedia
> community. For the latter it is vital to make our message heard.We aim to
> share the sum of all knowledge and many people have not even heard of us.
> Thank,
>       GerardM
>
> On 18 October 2016 at 16:00, Pax Ahimsa Gethen <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Gerard, this isn't about "holiday destinations", it's about human rights
>> and dignity. That's why I emphasized in my original post that I'm concerned
>> not only about the safety of conference attendees, but also about those
>> living in the host country. The choice of a venue in a location with a poor
>> human rights record reflects poorly upon Wikipedia/Wikimedia and our
>> mission to share knowledge. There's a reason a number of major companies
>> pulled their events and funding out of North Carolina after the restrictive
>> restroom laws were passed for example...
>>
>> - Pax
>>
>>
>>
>> On 10/18/16 6:26 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>>
>>> Hoi,
>>> For me safety is to a large extend secondary to what we aim to achieve.
>>> Our
>>> primary goal is to improve on our primary goal and it is "sharing in the
>>> sum of all knowledge". It is not for going to the perfect holiday
>>> destination.
>>> Thanks,
>>>       GerardM
>>>
>>> On 18 October 2016 at 13:56, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Gerard, could you provide some tangible examples of how other safety
>>>> aspects of Wikimania would be compromised if there is any specific
>>>> attention paid to the safety of LGBT+ Wikimedians? I cannot imagine
>>>> how such a thing could be true.
>>>>
>>>> Based on my reading, nobody in this thread has asked for the safety of
>>>> LGBT+ attendees to be "prioritized" over other safety aspects. Please
>>>> don't make it appear as if they have.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Fae
>>>>
>>>> On 18 October 2016 at 11:42, Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]
>>>> >
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hoi,
>>>>> I do care that everybody can come to places where they are safe. All
>>>>> the
>>>>> specific LGBT attention to safety is however on many levels problematic
>>>>> when we prioritise this over other safety aspects. The big picture for
>>>>> me
>>>>> is that we need to go to places where bringing Wikipedia and what it
>>>>>
>>>> stands
>>>>
>>>>> for the most good. It is why I would go to Russia, to China to India to
>>>>> South Africa.
>>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>>>>
>>>>
>> --
>> Pax Ahimsa Gethen | http://funcrunch.org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
>> i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>> New messages to: [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>
>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] LGBT+ safety considerations for conference venues

Pax Ahimsa Gethen
Gerard, as a queer black trans person who feels unsafe even in San
Francisco (and has felt that way for years), I would really appreciate
you not pushing last night's election results in my face to make a point.

- Pax


On 11/9/16 8:24 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:

> Hoi,
> Do you blame me for not feeling safe going to the USA?
> Thanks,
>       GerardM
>
> On 8 November 2016 at 11:08, Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> Hoi,
>> Not going to North Corolina is absolutely fine with me. We do not gain
>> anything by going there arguably not to any state in the United States.
>> What Wikimania is, is a platform for propaganda for what we have, what we
>> do, who we are and how we do what we do. In many countries Wikipedia is not
>> the house hold name it is in the USA.
>>
>> Wikimania is not aimed for the English Wikipedia, it is aimed to further
>> our movement. Not going to places is similar to saying that those other
>> people, speaking other languages, with an other culture do not matter. They
>> do.
>>
>> We should go to Russia, India, South Africa, China. The people of those
>> countries should matter to us, the people we could share the sum of all
>> knowledge with.
>>
>> THAT is what we do, sharing the sum of all knowledge.
>>
>> When the choice of the venue is only about being safe, we should not go to
>> the USA (I do not feel safe there), we should go to Germany, to Switzerland
>> and move the office as well. It is not likely to happen, not what I want
>> either.
>>
>> If there is one thing about LBGT, it is that that struggle is still being
>> fought. Hiding and keeping away does not work. It does not help the LBGT
>> community. More importantly in this context it does not help the Wikimedia
>> community. For the latter it is vital to make our message heard.We aim to
>> share the sum of all knowledge and many people have not even heard of us.
>> Thank,
>>        GerardM
>>
>> On 18 October 2016 at 16:00, Pax Ahimsa Gethen <
>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> Gerard, this isn't about "holiday destinations", it's about human rights
>>> and dignity. That's why I emphasized in my original post that I'm concerned
>>> not only about the safety of conference attendees, but also about those
>>> living in the host country. The choice of a venue in a location with a poor
>>> human rights record reflects poorly upon Wikipedia/Wikimedia and our
>>> mission to share knowledge. There's a reason a number of major companies
>>> pulled their events and funding out of North Carolina after the restrictive
>>> restroom laws were passed for example...
>>>
>>> - Pax
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 10/18/16 6:26 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hoi,
>>>> For me safety is to a large extend secondary to what we aim to achieve.
>>>> Our
>>>> primary goal is to improve on our primary goal and it is "sharing in the
>>>> sum of all knowledge". It is not for going to the perfect holiday
>>>> destination.
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>        GerardM
>>>>
>>>> On 18 October 2016 at 13:56, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Gerard, could you provide some tangible examples of how other safety
>>>>> aspects of Wikimania would be compromised if there is any specific
>>>>> attention paid to the safety of LGBT+ Wikimedians? I cannot imagine
>>>>> how such a thing could be true.
>>>>>
>>>>> Based on my reading, nobody in this thread has asked for the safety of
>>>>> LGBT+ attendees to be "prioritized" over other safety aspects. Please
>>>>> don't make it appear as if they have.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Fae
>>>>>
>>>>> On 18 October 2016 at 11:42, Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hoi,
>>>>>> I do care that everybody can come to places where they are safe. All
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> specific LGBT attention to safety is however on many levels problematic
>>>>>> when we prioritise this over other safety aspects. The big picture for
>>>>>> me
>>>>>> is that we need to go to places where bringing Wikipedia and what it
>>>>>>
>>>>> stands
>>>>>
>>>>>> for the most good. It is why I would go to Russia, to China to India to
>>>>>> South Africa.
>>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>>>>>

--
Pax Ahimsa Gethen | http://funcrunch.org


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New messages to: [hidden email]
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] LGBT+ safety considerations for conference venues

Gerard Meijssen-3
Hoi,
What is the point. When not even the USA is "safe", we have to be
realistic. Wikimania is about propaganda for what we do. We have to travel
and selecting a place is not about you, it is about them. It is about the
people we aim to serve.

I made my point before, it did not get any attention then and my argument
now is that nothing changed. It is only the perception of the USA that has
been dented by an unfortunate "democratic" choice by last night's election.
Thanks,
      GerardM

On 9 November 2016 at 17:27, Pax Ahimsa Gethen <[hidden email]
> wrote:

> Gerard, as a queer black trans person who feels unsafe even in San
> Francisco (and has felt that way for years), I would really appreciate you
> not pushing last night's election results in my face to make a point.
>
> - Pax
>
>
>
> On 11/9/16 8:24 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>
>> Hoi,
>> Do you blame me for not feeling safe going to the USA?
>> Thanks,
>>       GerardM
>>
>> On 8 November 2016 at 11:08, Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hoi,
>>> Not going to North Corolina is absolutely fine with me. We do not gain
>>> anything by going there arguably not to any state in the United States.
>>> What Wikimania is, is a platform for propaganda for what we have, what we
>>> do, who we are and how we do what we do. In many countries Wikipedia is
>>> not
>>> the house hold name it is in the USA.
>>>
>>> Wikimania is not aimed for the English Wikipedia, it is aimed to further
>>> our movement. Not going to places is similar to saying that those other
>>> people, speaking other languages, with an other culture do not matter.
>>> They
>>> do.
>>>
>>> We should go to Russia, India, South Africa, China. The people of those
>>> countries should matter to us, the people we could share the sum of all
>>> knowledge with.
>>>
>>> THAT is what we do, sharing the sum of all knowledge.
>>>
>>> When the choice of the venue is only about being safe, we should not go
>>> to
>>> the USA (I do not feel safe there), we should go to Germany, to
>>> Switzerland
>>> and move the office as well. It is not likely to happen, not what I want
>>> either.
>>>
>>> If there is one thing about LBGT, it is that that struggle is still being
>>> fought. Hiding and keeping away does not work. It does not help the LBGT
>>> community. More importantly in this context it does not help the
>>> Wikimedia
>>> community. For the latter it is vital to make our message heard.We aim to
>>> share the sum of all knowledge and many people have not even heard of us.
>>> Thank,
>>>        GerardM
>>>
>>> On 18 October 2016 at 16:00, Pax Ahimsa Gethen <
>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Gerard, this isn't about "holiday destinations", it's about human rights
>>>> and dignity. That's why I emphasized in my original post that I'm
>>>> concerned
>>>> not only about the safety of conference attendees, but also about those
>>>> living in the host country. The choice of a venue in a location with a
>>>> poor
>>>> human rights record reflects poorly upon Wikipedia/Wikimedia and our
>>>> mission to share knowledge. There's a reason a number of major companies
>>>> pulled their events and funding out of North Carolina after the
>>>> restrictive
>>>> restroom laws were passed for example...
>>>>
>>>> - Pax
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 10/18/16 6:26 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hoi,
>>>>> For me safety is to a large extend secondary to what we aim to achieve.
>>>>> Our
>>>>> primary goal is to improve on our primary goal and it is "sharing in
>>>>> the
>>>>> sum of all knowledge". It is not for going to the perfect holiday
>>>>> destination.
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>        GerardM
>>>>>
>>>>> On 18 October 2016 at 13:56, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Gerard, could you provide some tangible examples of how other safety
>>>>>
>>>>>> aspects of Wikimania would be compromised if there is any specific
>>>>>> attention paid to the safety of LGBT+ Wikimedians? I cannot imagine
>>>>>> how such a thing could be true.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Based on my reading, nobody in this thread has asked for the safety of
>>>>>> LGBT+ attendees to be "prioritized" over other safety aspects. Please
>>>>>> don't make it appear as if they have.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Fae
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 18 October 2016 at 11:42, Gerard Meijssen <
>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hoi,
>>>>>>> I do care that everybody can come to places where they are safe. All
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> specific LGBT attention to safety is however on many levels
>>>>>>> problematic
>>>>>>> when we prioritise this over other safety aspects. The big picture
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>> is that we need to go to places where bringing Wikipedia and what it
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> stands
>>>>>>
>>>>>> for the most good. It is why I would go to Russia, to China to India
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> South Africa.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>> [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
> --
> Pax Ahimsa Gethen | http://funcrunch.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
> i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] LGBT+ safety considerations for conference venues

Fæ
Gerard,

You have posted several emails on the subject which read as
disrespectful, can cause offence and discourage LGBT+ contributors to
this list who may have otherwise openly expressed views. The line of
argument that LGBT+ Wikimedians must expect to be at personal risk
just to attend a Wikimania is repugnant to me, and is likely to be for
a majority of other readers. This point of view runs counter to the
values of the WMF or recognized affiliates.

If you wish to develop a better understanding of how the basic safety
of all attendees at future Wikimanias and other conferences should be
a priority, this may be better done on-wiki rather than repeating your
points on this list.

I warmly recommend a reality check with friends off-list as to what
might be read as offensive, should you wish to continue posting
further emails about this particular topic.

Thanks,
Fae

On 9 November 2016 at 16:43, Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hoi,
> What is the point. When not even the USA is "safe", we have to be
> realistic. Wikimania is about propaganda for what we do. We have to travel
> and selecting a place is not about you, it is about them. It is about the
> people we aim to serve.
>
> I made my point before, it did not get any attention then and my argument
> now is that nothing changed. It is only the perception of the USA that has
> been dented by an unfortunate "democratic" choice by last night's election.
> Thanks,
>       GerardM
>
> On 9 November 2016 at 17:27, Pax Ahimsa Gethen <[hidden email]
>> wrote:
>
>> Gerard, as a queer black trans person who feels unsafe even in San
>> Francisco (and has felt that way for years), I would really appreciate you
>> not pushing last night's election results in my face to make a point.
>>
>> - Pax
>>
>>
>>
>> On 11/9/16 8:24 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>>
>>> Hoi,
>>> Do you blame me for not feeling safe going to the USA?
>>> Thanks,
>>>       GerardM
>>>
>>> On 8 November 2016 at 11:08, Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hoi,
>>>> Not going to North Corolina is absolutely fine with me. We do not gain
>>>> anything by going there arguably not to any state in the United States.
>>>> What Wikimania is, is a platform for propaganda for what we have, what we
>>>> do, who we are and how we do what we do. In many countries Wikipedia is
>>>> not
>>>> the house hold name it is in the USA.
>>>>
>>>> Wikimania is not aimed for the English Wikipedia, it is aimed to further
>>>> our movement. Not going to places is similar to saying that those other
>>>> people, speaking other languages, with an other culture do not matter.
>>>> They
>>>> do.
>>>>
>>>> We should go to Russia, India, South Africa, China. The people of those
>>>> countries should matter to us, the people we could share the sum of all
>>>> knowledge with.
>>>>
>>>> THAT is what we do, sharing the sum of all knowledge.
>>>>
>>>> When the choice of the venue is only about being safe, we should not go
>>>> to
>>>> the USA (I do not feel safe there), we should go to Germany, to
>>>> Switzerland
>>>> and move the office as well. It is not likely to happen, not what I want
>>>> either.
>>>>
>>>> If there is one thing about LBGT, it is that that struggle is still being
>>>> fought. Hiding and keeping away does not work. It does not help the LBGT
>>>> community. More importantly in this context it does not help the
>>>> Wikimedia
>>>> community. For the latter it is vital to make our message heard.We aim to
>>>> share the sum of all knowledge and many people have not even heard of us.
>>>> Thank,
>>>>        GerardM
>>>>
>>>> On 18 October 2016 at 16:00, Pax Ahimsa Gethen <
>>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Gerard, this isn't about "holiday destinations", it's about human rights
>>>>> and dignity. That's why I emphasized in my original post that I'm
>>>>> concerned
>>>>> not only about the safety of conference attendees, but also about those
>>>>> living in the host country. The choice of a venue in a location with a
>>>>> poor
>>>>> human rights record reflects poorly upon Wikipedia/Wikimedia and our
>>>>> mission to share knowledge. There's a reason a number of major companies
>>>>> pulled their events and funding out of North Carolina after the
>>>>> restrictive
>>>>> restroom laws were passed for example...
>>>>>
>>>>> - Pax
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10/18/16 6:26 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hoi,
>>>>>> For me safety is to a large extend secondary to what we aim to achieve.
>>>>>> Our
>>>>>> primary goal is to improve on our primary goal and it is "sharing in
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> sum of all knowledge". It is not for going to the perfect holiday
>>>>>> destination.
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>        GerardM
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 18 October 2016 at 13:56, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gerard, could you provide some tangible examples of how other safety
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> aspects of Wikimania would be compromised if there is any specific
>>>>>>> attention paid to the safety of LGBT+ Wikimedians? I cannot imagine
>>>>>>> how such a thing could be true.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Based on my reading, nobody in this thread has asked for the safety of
>>>>>>> LGBT+ attendees to be "prioritized" over other safety aspects. Please
>>>>>>> don't make it appear as if they have.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>> Fae
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 18 October 2016 at 11:42, Gerard Meijssen <
>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hoi,
>>>>>>>> I do care that everybody can come to places where they are safe. All
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> specific LGBT attention to safety is however on many levels
>>>>>>>> problematic
>>>>>>>> when we prioritise this over other safety aspects. The big picture
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>> is that we need to go to places where bringing Wikipedia and what it
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> stands
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> for the most good. It is why I would go to Russia, to China to India
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> South Africa.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>> --
>> Pax Ahimsa Gethen | http://funcrunch.org

--
[hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] LGBT+ safety considerations for conference venues

Nathan Awrich
In reply to this post by Gerard Meijssen-3
On Tue, Nov 8, 2016 at 5:08 AM, Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hoi,
> Not going to North Corolina is absolutely fine with me. We do not gain
> anything by going there arguably not to any state in the United States.
> What Wikimania is, is a platform for propaganda for what we have, what we
> do, who we are and how we do what we do. In many countries Wikipedia is not
> the house hold name it is in the USA.
>
> Wikimania is not aimed for the English Wikipedia, it is aimed to further
> our movement. Not going to places is similar to saying that those other
> people, speaking other languages, with an other culture do not matter. They
> do.
>
> We should go to Russia, India, South Africa, China. The people of those
> countries should matter to us, the people we could share the sum of all
> knowledge with.
>
> THAT is what we do, sharing the sum of all knowledge.
>
> When the choice of the venue is only about being safe, we should not go to
> the USA (I do not feel safe there), we should go to Germany, to Switzerland
> and move the office as well. It is not likely to happen, not what I want
> either.
>
> If there is one thing about LBGT, it is that that struggle is still being
> fought. Hiding and keeping away does not work. It does not help the LBGT
> community. More importantly in this context it does not help the Wikimedia
> community. For the latter it is vital to make our message heard.We aim to
> share the sum of all knowledge and many people have not even heard of us.
> Thank,
>       GerardM


I agree with Gerard. I would rather see the WMF spend $200k on security
arrangements to ensure the safety of all participants than only ever
schedule Wikimania in cities subjectively determined to be "safe".
Wikimania has been in China, in Egypt and in Mexico City - these are not
places most would consider "safe" or deeply observant of human and civil
rights. One of many values of having the event in areas with troubled
environments is to contribute to improving those environments - giving more
people access to more knowledge and the values of the Wikimedia movement.
Repeatedly having the event in Frankfurt or Montreal will never accomplish
that goal as effectively.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] LGBT+ safety considerations for conference venues

Gerard Meijssen-3
In reply to this post by Fæ
Hoi,
The notion of offence is one where you take it where there is none
certainly no offence is intended.

When you consider Wikimanias past, we have been to places where there is a
"risk". Arguably there has been a risk in going to other countries in the
past. When you consider the events themselves, as a group, we have been
rather isolated in our conference. Many people were exhausted of the
proceedings. Others went partying and came to the conference when they felt
up to it.

This whole notion of security has been high jacked by LGBT concerns. Let me
say that they are real. It would however be a travesty to say that they are
the only ones singled out for problems. Ask yourself, how many women
wearing a veil were there at the last Wikimania and at the one before.
Consider the stories about people, third generation Dutch, who are mistaken
for refugees and not safe in the streets of the place where I live. Stories
about not standing close to the gap at a railway station because ... They
are as much a reality, they are as real.

So you may find it offensive and it is. People are not safe. But when that
stops us from talking about it, when it can not be said that security is
only one concern and not the most dominant one then I take offence. It
means that we can no longer exchange opinions. It means that we are only
concerned with our own narrow interest losing the big picture.

So Fae, take it from me. You are wrong to call me out for being
disrespectful. By calling me out in this way you elevate your opinion and
put me down. Security is a concern but when fear is exchanged for prudence,
we will remove the one reason why we have Wikimania in the first place as a
worldwide conference. It is to go out and show the world who we are and
what we have to offer.

When this is the prevailing opinion of our movement it does hardly matter
that we have Wikipedias in over 280 languages because English and its
culture is the only Wikipedia that counts. Now that is effectively an
existing prejudice that is dominated in much of what I observe we do. It is
another argument people feel offended. But hey most of you do not see it
this way because "things trickle down".. As an economic measure it failed
and it is how we ignore the major cultural differences that exist.

Wikimania is not relevant when we do not go out and mingle world wide. When
we do not accept the differences that exist and make it our strength.
Thanks,
      GerardM


On 9 November 2016 at 18:28, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Gerard,
>
> You have posted several emails on the subject which read as
> disrespectful, can cause offence and discourage LGBT+ contributors to
> this list who may have otherwise openly expressed views. The line of
> argument that LGBT+ Wikimedians must expect to be at personal risk
> just to attend a Wikimania is repugnant to me, and is likely to be for
> a majority of other readers. This point of view runs counter to the
> values of the WMF or recognized affiliates.
>
> If you wish to develop a better understanding of how the basic safety
> of all attendees at future Wikimanias and other conferences should be
> a priority, this may be better done on-wiki rather than repeating your
> points on this list.
>
> I warmly recommend a reality check with friends off-list as to what
> might be read as offensive, should you wish to continue posting
> further emails about this particular topic.
>
> Thanks,
> Fae
>
> On 9 November 2016 at 16:43, Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > Hoi,
> > What is the point. When not even the USA is "safe", we have to be
> > realistic. Wikimania is about propaganda for what we do. We have to
> travel
> > and selecting a place is not about you, it is about them. It is about the
> > people we aim to serve.
> >
> > I made my point before, it did not get any attention then and my argument
> > now is that nothing changed. It is only the perception of the USA that
> has
> > been dented by an unfortunate "democratic" choice by last night's
> election.
> > Thanks,
> >       GerardM
> >
> > On 9 November 2016 at 17:27, Pax Ahimsa Gethen <
> [hidden email]
> >> wrote:
> >
> >> Gerard, as a queer black trans person who feels unsafe even in San
> >> Francisco (and has felt that way for years), I would really appreciate
> you
> >> not pushing last night's election results in my face to make a point.
> >>
> >> - Pax
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 11/9/16 8:24 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hoi,
> >>> Do you blame me for not feeling safe going to the USA?
> >>> Thanks,
> >>>       GerardM
> >>>
> >>> On 8 November 2016 at 11:08, Gerard Meijssen <
> [hidden email]>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hoi,
> >>>> Not going to North Corolina is absolutely fine with me. We do not gain
> >>>> anything by going there arguably not to any state in the United
> States.
> >>>> What Wikimania is, is a platform for propaganda for what we have,
> what we
> >>>> do, who we are and how we do what we do. In many countries Wikipedia
> is
> >>>> not
> >>>> the house hold name it is in the USA.
> >>>>
> >>>> Wikimania is not aimed for the English Wikipedia, it is aimed to
> further
> >>>> our movement. Not going to places is similar to saying that those
> other
> >>>> people, speaking other languages, with an other culture do not matter.
> >>>> They
> >>>> do.
> >>>>
> >>>> We should go to Russia, India, South Africa, China. The people of
> those
> >>>> countries should matter to us, the people we could share the sum of
> all
> >>>> knowledge with.
> >>>>
> >>>> THAT is what we do, sharing the sum of all knowledge.
> >>>>
> >>>> When the choice of the venue is only about being safe, we should not
> go
> >>>> to
> >>>> the USA (I do not feel safe there), we should go to Germany, to
> >>>> Switzerland
> >>>> and move the office as well. It is not likely to happen, not what I
> want
> >>>> either.
> >>>>
> >>>> If there is one thing about LBGT, it is that that struggle is still
> being
> >>>> fought. Hiding and keeping away does not work. It does not help the
> LBGT
> >>>> community. More importantly in this context it does not help the
> >>>> Wikimedia
> >>>> community. For the latter it is vital to make our message heard.We
> aim to
> >>>> share the sum of all knowledge and many people have not even heard of
> us.
> >>>> Thank,
> >>>>        GerardM
> >>>>
> >>>> On 18 October 2016 at 16:00, Pax Ahimsa Gethen <
> >>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Gerard, this isn't about "holiday destinations", it's about human
> rights
> >>>>> and dignity. That's why I emphasized in my original post that I'm
> >>>>> concerned
> >>>>> not only about the safety of conference attendees, but also about
> those
> >>>>> living in the host country. The choice of a venue in a location with
> a
> >>>>> poor
> >>>>> human rights record reflects poorly upon Wikipedia/Wikimedia and our
> >>>>> mission to share knowledge. There's a reason a number of major
> companies
> >>>>> pulled their events and funding out of North Carolina after the
> >>>>> restrictive
> >>>>> restroom laws were passed for example...
> >>>>>
> >>>>> - Pax
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 10/18/16 6:26 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hoi,
> >>>>>> For me safety is to a large extend secondary to what we aim to
> achieve.
> >>>>>> Our
> >>>>>> primary goal is to improve on our primary goal and it is "sharing in
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>> sum of all knowledge". It is not for going to the perfect holiday
> >>>>>> destination.
> >>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>        GerardM
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On 18 October 2016 at 13:56, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Gerard, could you provide some tangible examples of how other safety
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> aspects of Wikimania would be compromised if there is any specific
> >>>>>>> attention paid to the safety of LGBT+ Wikimedians? I cannot imagine
> >>>>>>> how such a thing could be true.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Based on my reading, nobody in this thread has asked for the
> safety of
> >>>>>>> LGBT+ attendees to be "prioritized" over other safety aspects.
> Please
> >>>>>>> don't make it appear as if they have.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>> Fae
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On 18 October 2016 at 11:42, Gerard Meijssen <
> >>>>>>> [hidden email]
> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Hoi,
> >>>>>>>> I do care that everybody can come to places where they are safe.
> All
> >>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>> specific LGBT attention to safety is however on many levels
> >>>>>>>> problematic
> >>>>>>>> when we prioritise this over other safety aspects. The big picture
> >>>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>>> me
> >>>>>>>> is that we need to go to places where bringing Wikipedia and what
> it
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> stands
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> for the most good. It is why I would go to Russia, to China to
> India
> >>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>> South Africa.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >> --
> >> Pax Ahimsa Gethen | http://funcrunch.org
>
> --
> [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] LGBT+ safety considerations for conference venues

Fæ
Gerard,

Yes you are being offensive. You are deliberately painting a picture
that somehow Pax, myself and others are attempting to make out that
safety of LGBT+ Wikimedians is more important than safety of Women
Wikimedians or the safety of Muslim Wikimedians. The only person doing
that is you.

You did the same thing on the 18th of October and it was pointed out
to you that this was unacceptable, yet you are continuing to repeat
it. Stop doing it, it is a lie, and the only person spreading it is you.

Go back and read Pax's original post of 16th October which was positive
about the Wikimania experience.

Fae

On 10 November 2016 at 06:57, Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hoi,
> The notion of offence is one where you take it where there is none
> certainly no offence is intended.
>
> When you consider Wikimanias past, we have been to places where there is a
> "risk". Arguably there has been a risk in going to other countries in the
> past. When you consider the events themselves, as a group, we have been
> rather isolated in our conference. Many people were exhausted of the
> proceedings. Others went partying and came to the conference when they felt
> up to it.
>
> This whole notion of security has been high jacked by LGBT concerns. Let me
> say that they are real. It would however be a travesty to say that they are
> the only ones singled out for problems. Ask yourself, how many women
> wearing a veil were there at the last Wikimania and at the one before.
> Consider the stories about people, third generation Dutch, who are mistaken
> for refugees and not safe in the streets of the place where I live. Stories
> about not standing close to the gap at a railway station because ... They
> are as much a reality, they are as real.
>
> So you may find it offensive and it is. People are not safe. But when that
> stops us from talking about it, when it can not be said that security is
> only one concern and not the most dominant one then I take offence. It
> means that we can no longer exchange opinions. It means that we are only
> concerned with our own narrow interest losing the big picture.
>
> So Fae, take it from me. You are wrong to call me out for being
> disrespectful. By calling me out in this way you elevate your opinion and
> put me down. Security is a concern but when fear is exchanged for prudence,
> we will remove the one reason why we have Wikimania in the first place as a
> worldwide conference. It is to go out and show the world who we are and
> what we have to offer.
>
> When this is the prevailing opinion of our movement it does hardly matter
> that we have Wikipedias in over 280 languages because English and its
> culture is the only Wikipedia that counts. Now that is effectively an
> existing prejudice that is dominated in much of what I observe we do. It is
> another argument people feel offended. But hey most of you do not see it
> this way because "things trickle down".. As an economic measure it failed
> and it is how we ignore the major cultural differences that exist.
>
> Wikimania is not relevant when we do not go out and mingle world wide. When
> we do not accept the differences that exist and make it our strength.
> Thanks,
>       GerardM
>
>
> On 9 November 2016 at 18:28, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Gerard,
>>
>> You have posted several emails on the subject which read as
>> disrespectful, can cause offence and discourage LGBT+ contributors to
>> this list who may have otherwise openly expressed views. The line of
>> argument that LGBT+ Wikimedians must expect to be at personal risk
>> just to attend a Wikimania is repugnant to me, and is likely to be for
>> a majority of other readers. This point of view runs counter to the
>> values of the WMF or recognized affiliates.
>>
>> If you wish to develop a better understanding of how the basic safety
>> of all attendees at future Wikimanias and other conferences should be
>> a priority, this may be better done on-wiki rather than repeating your
>> points on this list.
>>
>> I warmly recommend a reality check with friends off-list as to what
>> might be read as offensive, should you wish to continue posting
>> further emails about this particular topic.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Fae
>>
>> On 9 November 2016 at 16:43, Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>> > Hoi,
>> > What is the point. When not even the USA is "safe", we have to be
>> > realistic. Wikimania is about propaganda for what we do. We have to
>> travel
>> > and selecting a place is not about you, it is about them. It is about the
>> > people we aim to serve.
>> >
>> > I made my point before, it did not get any attention then and my argument
>> > now is that nothing changed. It is only the perception of the USA that
>> has
>> > been dented by an unfortunate "democratic" choice by last night's
>> election.
>> > Thanks,
>> >       GerardM
>> >
>> > On 9 November 2016 at 17:27, Pax Ahimsa Gethen <
>> [hidden email]
>> >> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Gerard, as a queer black trans person who feels unsafe even in San
>> >> Francisco (and has felt that way for years), I would really appreciate
>> you
>> >> not pushing last night's election results in my face to make a point.
>> >>
>> >> - Pax
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On 11/9/16 8:24 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Hoi,
>> >>> Do you blame me for not feeling safe going to the USA?
>> >>> Thanks,
>> >>>       GerardM
>> >>>
>> >>> On 8 November 2016 at 11:08, Gerard Meijssen <
>> [hidden email]>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Hoi,
>> >>>> Not going to North Corolina is absolutely fine with me. We do not gain
>> >>>> anything by going there arguably not to any state in the United
>> States.
>> >>>> What Wikimania is, is a platform for propaganda for what we have,
>> what we
>> >>>> do, who we are and how we do what we do. In many countries Wikipedia
>> is
>> >>>> not
>> >>>> the house hold name it is in the USA.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Wikimania is not aimed for the English Wikipedia, it is aimed to
>> further
>> >>>> our movement. Not going to places is similar to saying that those
>> other
>> >>>> people, speaking other languages, with an other culture do not matter.
>> >>>> They
>> >>>> do.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> We should go to Russia, India, South Africa, China. The people of
>> those
>> >>>> countries should matter to us, the people we could share the sum of
>> all
>> >>>> knowledge with.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> THAT is what we do, sharing the sum of all knowledge.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> When the choice of the venue is only about being safe, we should not
>> go
>> >>>> to
>> >>>> the USA (I do not feel safe there), we should go to Germany, to
>> >>>> Switzerland
>> >>>> and move the office as well. It is not likely to happen, not what I
>> want
>> >>>> either.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> If there is one thing about LBGT, it is that that struggle is still
>> being
>> >>>> fought. Hiding and keeping away does not work. It does not help the
>> LBGT
>> >>>> community. More importantly in this context it does not help the
>> >>>> Wikimedia
>> >>>> community. For the latter it is vital to make our message heard.We
>> aim to
>> >>>> share the sum of all knowledge and many people have not even heard of
>> us.
>> >>>> Thank,
>> >>>>        GerardM
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On 18 October 2016 at 16:00, Pax Ahimsa Gethen <
>> >>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Gerard, this isn't about "holiday destinations", it's about human
>> rights
>> >>>>> and dignity. That's why I emphasized in my original post that I'm
>> >>>>> concerned
>> >>>>> not only about the safety of conference attendees, but also about
>> those
>> >>>>> living in the host country. The choice of a venue in a location with
>> a
>> >>>>> poor
>> >>>>> human rights record reflects poorly upon Wikipedia/Wikimedia and our
>> >>>>> mission to share knowledge. There's a reason a number of major
>> companies
>> >>>>> pulled their events and funding out of North Carolina after the
>> >>>>> restrictive
>> >>>>> restroom laws were passed for example...
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> - Pax
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> On 10/18/16 6:26 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Hoi,
>> >>>>>> For me safety is to a large extend secondary to what we aim to
>> achieve.
>> >>>>>> Our
>> >>>>>> primary goal is to improve on our primary goal and it is "sharing in
>> >>>>>> the
>> >>>>>> sum of all knowledge". It is not for going to the perfect holiday
>> >>>>>> destination.
>> >>>>>> Thanks,
>> >>>>>>        GerardM
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> On 18 October 2016 at 13:56, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Gerard, could you provide some tangible examples of how other safety
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> aspects of Wikimania would be compromised if there is any specific
>> >>>>>>> attention paid to the safety of LGBT+ Wikimedians? I cannot imagine
>> >>>>>>> how such a thing could be true.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Based on my reading, nobody in this thread has asked for the
>> safety of
>> >>>>>>> LGBT+ attendees to be "prioritized" over other safety aspects.
>> Please
>> >>>>>>> don't make it appear as if they have.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Thanks,
>> >>>>>>> Fae
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> On 18 October 2016 at 11:42, Gerard Meijssen <
>> >>>>>>> [hidden email]
>> >>>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Hoi,
>> >>>>>>>> I do care that everybody can come to places where they are safe.
>> All
>> >>>>>>>> the
>> >>>>>>>> specific LGBT attention to safety is however on many levels
>> >>>>>>>> problematic
>> >>>>>>>> when we prioritise this over other safety aspects. The big picture
>> >>>>>>>> for
>> >>>>>>>> me
>> >>>>>>>> is that we need to go to places where bringing Wikipedia and what
>> it
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> stands
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> for the most good. It is why I would go to Russia, to China to
>> India
>> >>>>>>>> to
>> >>>>>>>> South Africa.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> --
>> >>>>>>> [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >> --
--
[hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] LGBT+ safety considerations for conference venues

Gerard Meijssen-3
Hoi,
You do not get it. Wikimania is first and foremost about spreading the word
about what we do and who we are.

I have read Pax's original post. He did not go to Wikimania. He asks for
consideration that any Wikimania will be in a place where he feels safe. It
is OK for him to ask this but it is not OK for us to give away what
Wikimania stands for.

There is no safe place and in my experience you are offensive by not
accepting that this is the point that I make. There is no perfect place for
Wikimania. Everywhere and always you have to behave yourself cognisant of
where you are. At all times there is one or the other group that will be
discriminated against.

Fae, muslims are at a greater risk than LGBT people when they come to a
conference. Particularly women who wear a hijab will always be seen for
what they are. It is not a lie that you do not address the point that I
make. The question is why do we have a Wikimania and is it an instrument to
open up new communities and include them in our movement.

This is the dominant question that should be answered. Relative safety is
secondary.
Thanks,
       GerardM

On 10 November 2016 at 08:46, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Gerard,
>
> Yes you are being offensive. You are deliberately painting a picture
> that somehow Pax, myself and others are attempting to make out that
> safety of LGBT+ Wikimedians is more important than safety of Women
> Wikimedians or the safety of Muslim Wikimedians. The only person doing
> that is you.
>
> You did the same thing on the 18th of October and it was pointed out
> to you that this was unacceptable, yet you are continuing to repeat
> it. Stop doing it, it is a lie, and the only person spreading it is you.
>
> Go back and read Pax's original post of 16th October which was positive
> about the Wikimania experience.
>
> Fae
>
> On 10 November 2016 at 06:57, Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > Hoi,
> > The notion of offence is one where you take it where there is none
> > certainly no offence is intended.
> >
> > When you consider Wikimanias past, we have been to places where there is
> a
> > "risk". Arguably there has been a risk in going to other countries in the
> > past. When you consider the events themselves, as a group, we have been
> > rather isolated in our conference. Many people were exhausted of the
> > proceedings. Others went partying and came to the conference when they
> felt
> > up to it.
> >
> > This whole notion of security has been high jacked by LGBT concerns. Let
> me
> > say that they are real. It would however be a travesty to say that they
> are
> > the only ones singled out for problems. Ask yourself, how many women
> > wearing a veil were there at the last Wikimania and at the one before.
> > Consider the stories about people, third generation Dutch, who are
> mistaken
> > for refugees and not safe in the streets of the place where I live.
> Stories
> > about not standing close to the gap at a railway station because ... They
> > are as much a reality, they are as real.
> >
> > So you may find it offensive and it is. People are not safe. But when
> that
> > stops us from talking about it, when it can not be said that security is
> > only one concern and not the most dominant one then I take offence. It
> > means that we can no longer exchange opinions. It means that we are only
> > concerned with our own narrow interest losing the big picture.
> >
> > So Fae, take it from me. You are wrong to call me out for being
> > disrespectful. By calling me out in this way you elevate your opinion and
> > put me down. Security is a concern but when fear is exchanged for
> prudence,
> > we will remove the one reason why we have Wikimania in the first place
> as a
> > worldwide conference. It is to go out and show the world who we are and
> > what we have to offer.
> >
> > When this is the prevailing opinion of our movement it does hardly matter
> > that we have Wikipedias in over 280 languages because English and its
> > culture is the only Wikipedia that counts. Now that is effectively an
> > existing prejudice that is dominated in much of what I observe we do. It
> is
> > another argument people feel offended. But hey most of you do not see it
> > this way because "things trickle down".. As an economic measure it failed
> > and it is how we ignore the major cultural differences that exist.
> >
> > Wikimania is not relevant when we do not go out and mingle world wide.
> When
> > we do not accept the differences that exist and make it our strength.
> > Thanks,
> >       GerardM
> >
> >
> > On 9 November 2016 at 18:28, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> Gerard,
> >>
> >> You have posted several emails on the subject which read as
> >> disrespectful, can cause offence and discourage LGBT+ contributors to
> >> this list who may have otherwise openly expressed views. The line of
> >> argument that LGBT+ Wikimedians must expect to be at personal risk
> >> just to attend a Wikimania is repugnant to me, and is likely to be for
> >> a majority of other readers. This point of view runs counter to the
> >> values of the WMF or recognized affiliates.
> >>
> >> If you wish to develop a better understanding of how the basic safety
> >> of all attendees at future Wikimanias and other conferences should be
> >> a priority, this may be better done on-wiki rather than repeating your
> >> points on this list.
> >>
> >> I warmly recommend a reality check with friends off-list as to what
> >> might be read as offensive, should you wish to continue posting
> >> further emails about this particular topic.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Fae
> >>
> >> On 9 November 2016 at 16:43, Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]
> >
> >> wrote:
> >> > Hoi,
> >> > What is the point. When not even the USA is "safe", we have to be
> >> > realistic. Wikimania is about propaganda for what we do. We have to
> >> travel
> >> > and selecting a place is not about you, it is about them. It is about
> the
> >> > people we aim to serve.
> >> >
> >> > I made my point before, it did not get any attention then and my
> argument
> >> > now is that nothing changed. It is only the perception of the USA that
> >> has
> >> > been dented by an unfortunate "democratic" choice by last night's
> >> election.
> >> > Thanks,
> >> >       GerardM
> >> >
> >> > On 9 November 2016 at 17:27, Pax Ahimsa Gethen <
> >> [hidden email]
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Gerard, as a queer black trans person who feels unsafe even in San
> >> >> Francisco (and has felt that way for years), I would really
> appreciate
> >> you
> >> >> not pushing last night's election results in my face to make a point.
> >> >>
> >> >> - Pax
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> On 11/9/16 8:24 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> Hoi,
> >> >>> Do you blame me for not feeling safe going to the USA?
> >> >>> Thanks,
> >> >>>       GerardM
> >> >>>
> >> >>> On 8 November 2016 at 11:08, Gerard Meijssen <
> >> [hidden email]>
> >> >>> wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Hoi,
> >> >>>> Not going to North Corolina is absolutely fine with me. We do not
> gain
> >> >>>> anything by going there arguably not to any state in the United
> >> States.
> >> >>>> What Wikimania is, is a platform for propaganda for what we have,
> >> what we
> >> >>>> do, who we are and how we do what we do. In many countries
> Wikipedia
> >> is
> >> >>>> not
> >> >>>> the house hold name it is in the USA.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Wikimania is not aimed for the English Wikipedia, it is aimed to
> >> further
> >> >>>> our movement. Not going to places is similar to saying that those
> >> other
> >> >>>> people, speaking other languages, with an other culture do not
> matter.
> >> >>>> They
> >> >>>> do.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> We should go to Russia, India, South Africa, China. The people of
> >> those
> >> >>>> countries should matter to us, the people we could share the sum of
> >> all
> >> >>>> knowledge with.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> THAT is what we do, sharing the sum of all knowledge.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> When the choice of the venue is only about being safe, we should
> not
> >> go
> >> >>>> to
> >> >>>> the USA (I do not feel safe there), we should go to Germany, to
> >> >>>> Switzerland
> >> >>>> and move the office as well. It is not likely to happen, not what I
> >> want
> >> >>>> either.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> If there is one thing about LBGT, it is that that struggle is still
> >> being
> >> >>>> fought. Hiding and keeping away does not work. It does not help the
> >> LBGT
> >> >>>> community. More importantly in this context it does not help the
> >> >>>> Wikimedia
> >> >>>> community. For the latter it is vital to make our message heard.We
> >> aim to
> >> >>>> share the sum of all knowledge and many people have not even heard
> of
> >> us.
> >> >>>> Thank,
> >> >>>>        GerardM
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> On 18 October 2016 at 16:00, Pax Ahimsa Gethen <
> >> >>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Gerard, this isn't about "holiday destinations", it's about human
> >> rights
> >> >>>>> and dignity. That's why I emphasized in my original post that I'm
> >> >>>>> concerned
> >> >>>>> not only about the safety of conference attendees, but also about
> >> those
> >> >>>>> living in the host country. The choice of a venue in a location
> with
> >> a
> >> >>>>> poor
> >> >>>>> human rights record reflects poorly upon Wikipedia/Wikimedia and
> our
> >> >>>>> mission to share knowledge. There's a reason a number of major
> >> companies
> >> >>>>> pulled their events and funding out of North Carolina after the
> >> >>>>> restrictive
> >> >>>>> restroom laws were passed for example...
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> - Pax
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> On 10/18/16 6:26 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Hoi,
> >> >>>>>> For me safety is to a large extend secondary to what we aim to
> >> achieve.
> >> >>>>>> Our
> >> >>>>>> primary goal is to improve on our primary goal and it is
> "sharing in
> >> >>>>>> the
> >> >>>>>> sum of all knowledge". It is not for going to the perfect holiday
> >> >>>>>> destination.
> >> >>>>>> Thanks,
> >> >>>>>>        GerardM
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> On 18 October 2016 at 13:56, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Gerard, could you provide some tangible examples of how other
> safety
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> aspects of Wikimania would be compromised if there is any
> specific
> >> >>>>>>> attention paid to the safety of LGBT+ Wikimedians? I cannot
> imagine
> >> >>>>>>> how such a thing could be true.
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> Based on my reading, nobody in this thread has asked for the
> >> safety of
> >> >>>>>>> LGBT+ attendees to be "prioritized" over other safety aspects.
> >> Please
> >> >>>>>>> don't make it appear as if they have.
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> Thanks,
> >> >>>>>>> Fae
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> On 18 October 2016 at 11:42, Gerard Meijssen <
> >> >>>>>>> [hidden email]
> >> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> Hoi,
> >> >>>>>>>> I do care that everybody can come to places where they are
> safe.
> >> All
> >> >>>>>>>> the
> >> >>>>>>>> specific LGBT attention to safety is however on many levels
> >> >>>>>>>> problematic
> >> >>>>>>>> when we prioritise this over other safety aspects. The big
> picture
> >> >>>>>>>> for
> >> >>>>>>>> me
> >> >>>>>>>> is that we need to go to places where bringing Wikipedia and
> what
> >> it
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> stands
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> for the most good. It is why I would go to Russia, to China to
> >> India
> >> >>>>>>>> to
> >> >>>>>>>> South Africa.
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> --
> >> >>>>>>> [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >> --
> --
> [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] LGBT+ safety considerations for conference venues

Michel Vuijlsteke-2
+1

On 10 November 2016 at 09:00, Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hoi,
> You do not get it. Wikimania is first and foremost about spreading the word
> about what we do and who we are.
>
> I have read Pax's original post. He did not go to Wikimania. He asks for
> consideration that any Wikimania will be in a place where he feels safe. It
> is OK for him to ask this but it is not OK for us to give away what
> Wikimania stands for.
>
> There is no safe place and in my experience you are offensive by not
> accepting that this is the point that I make. There is no perfect place for
> Wikimania. Everywhere and always you have to behave yourself cognisant of
> where you are. At all times there is one or the other group that will be
> discriminated against.
>
> Fae, muslims are at a greater risk than LGBT people when they come to a
> conference. Particularly women who wear a hijab will always be seen for
> what they are. It is not a lie that you do not address the point that I
> make. The question is why do we have a Wikimania and is it an instrument to
> open up new communities and include them in our movement.
>
> This is the dominant question that should be answered. Relative safety is
> secondary.
> Thanks,
>        GerardM
>
> On 10 November 2016 at 08:46, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Gerard,
> >
> > Yes you are being offensive. You are deliberately painting a picture
> > that somehow Pax, myself and others are attempting to make out that
> > safety of LGBT+ Wikimedians is more important than safety of Women
> > Wikimedians or the safety of Muslim Wikimedians. The only person doing
> > that is you.
> >
> > You did the same thing on the 18th of October and it was pointed out
> > to you that this was unacceptable, yet you are continuing to repeat
> > it. Stop doing it, it is a lie, and the only person spreading it is you.
> >
> > Go back and read Pax's original post of 16th October which was positive
> > about the Wikimania experience.
> >
> > Fae
> >
> > On 10 November 2016 at 06:57, Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]
> >
> > wrote:
> > > Hoi,
> > > The notion of offence is one where you take it where there is none
> > > certainly no offence is intended.
> > >
> > > When you consider Wikimanias past, we have been to places where there
> is
> > a
> > > "risk". Arguably there has been a risk in going to other countries in
> the
> > > past. When you consider the events themselves, as a group, we have been
> > > rather isolated in our conference. Many people were exhausted of the
> > > proceedings. Others went partying and came to the conference when they
> > felt
> > > up to it.
> > >
> > > This whole notion of security has been high jacked by LGBT concerns.
> Let
> > me
> > > say that they are real. It would however be a travesty to say that they
> > are
> > > the only ones singled out for problems. Ask yourself, how many women
> > > wearing a veil were there at the last Wikimania and at the one before.
> > > Consider the stories about people, third generation Dutch, who are
> > mistaken
> > > for refugees and not safe in the streets of the place where I live.
> > Stories
> > > about not standing close to the gap at a railway station because ...
> They
> > > are as much a reality, they are as real.
> > >
> > > So you may find it offensive and it is. People are not safe. But when
> > that
> > > stops us from talking about it, when it can not be said that security
> is
> > > only one concern and not the most dominant one then I take offence. It
> > > means that we can no longer exchange opinions. It means that we are
> only
> > > concerned with our own narrow interest losing the big picture.
> > >
> > > So Fae, take it from me. You are wrong to call me out for being
> > > disrespectful. By calling me out in this way you elevate your opinion
> and
> > > put me down. Security is a concern but when fear is exchanged for
> > prudence,
> > > we will remove the one reason why we have Wikimania in the first place
> > as a
> > > worldwide conference. It is to go out and show the world who we are and
> > > what we have to offer.
> > >
> > > When this is the prevailing opinion of our movement it does hardly
> matter
> > > that we have Wikipedias in over 280 languages because English and its
> > > culture is the only Wikipedia that counts. Now that is effectively an
> > > existing prejudice that is dominated in much of what I observe we do.
> It
> > is
> > > another argument people feel offended. But hey most of you do not see
> it
> > > this way because "things trickle down".. As an economic measure it
> failed
> > > and it is how we ignore the major cultural differences that exist.
> > >
> > > Wikimania is not relevant when we do not go out and mingle world wide.
> > When
> > > we do not accept the differences that exist and make it our strength.
> > > Thanks,
> > >       GerardM
> > >
> > >
> > > On 9 November 2016 at 18:28, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Gerard,
> > >>
> > >> You have posted several emails on the subject which read as
> > >> disrespectful, can cause offence and discourage LGBT+ contributors to
> > >> this list who may have otherwise openly expressed views. The line of
> > >> argument that LGBT+ Wikimedians must expect to be at personal risk
> > >> just to attend a Wikimania is repugnant to me, and is likely to be for
> > >> a majority of other readers. This point of view runs counter to the
> > >> values of the WMF or recognized affiliates.
> > >>
> > >> If you wish to develop a better understanding of how the basic safety
> > >> of all attendees at future Wikimanias and other conferences should be
> > >> a priority, this may be better done on-wiki rather than repeating your
> > >> points on this list.
> > >>
> > >> I warmly recommend a reality check with friends off-list as to what
> > >> might be read as offensive, should you wish to continue posting
> > >> further emails about this particular topic.
> > >>
> > >> Thanks,
> > >> Fae
> > >>
> > >> On 9 November 2016 at 16:43, Gerard Meijssen <
> [hidden email]
> > >
> > >> wrote:
> > >> > Hoi,
> > >> > What is the point. When not even the USA is "safe", we have to be
> > >> > realistic. Wikimania is about propaganda for what we do. We have to
> > >> travel
> > >> > and selecting a place is not about you, it is about them. It is
> about
> > the
> > >> > people we aim to serve.
> > >> >
> > >> > I made my point before, it did not get any attention then and my
> > argument
> > >> > now is that nothing changed. It is only the perception of the USA
> that
> > >> has
> > >> > been dented by an unfortunate "democratic" choice by last night's
> > >> election.
> > >> > Thanks,
> > >> >       GerardM
> > >> >
> > >> > On 9 November 2016 at 17:27, Pax Ahimsa Gethen <
> > >> [hidden email]
> > >> >> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> >> Gerard, as a queer black trans person who feels unsafe even in San
> > >> >> Francisco (and has felt that way for years), I would really
> > appreciate
> > >> you
> > >> >> not pushing last night's election results in my face to make a
> point.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> - Pax
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> On 11/9/16 8:24 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
> > >> >>
> > >> >>> Hoi,
> > >> >>> Do you blame me for not feeling safe going to the USA?
> > >> >>> Thanks,
> > >> >>>       GerardM
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> On 8 November 2016 at 11:08, Gerard Meijssen <
> > >> [hidden email]>
> > >> >>> wrote:
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> Hoi,
> > >> >>>> Not going to North Corolina is absolutely fine with me. We do not
> > gain
> > >> >>>> anything by going there arguably not to any state in the United
> > >> States.
> > >> >>>> What Wikimania is, is a platform for propaganda for what we have,
> > >> what we
> > >> >>>> do, who we are and how we do what we do. In many countries
> > Wikipedia
> > >> is
> > >> >>>> not
> > >> >>>> the house hold name it is in the USA.
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>> Wikimania is not aimed for the English Wikipedia, it is aimed to
> > >> further
> > >> >>>> our movement. Not going to places is similar to saying that those
> > >> other
> > >> >>>> people, speaking other languages, with an other culture do not
> > matter.
> > >> >>>> They
> > >> >>>> do.
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>> We should go to Russia, India, South Africa, China. The people of
> > >> those
> > >> >>>> countries should matter to us, the people we could share the sum
> of
> > >> all
> > >> >>>> knowledge with.
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>> THAT is what we do, sharing the sum of all knowledge.
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>> When the choice of the venue is only about being safe, we should
> > not
> > >> go
> > >> >>>> to
> > >> >>>> the USA (I do not feel safe there), we should go to Germany, to
> > >> >>>> Switzerland
> > >> >>>> and move the office as well. It is not likely to happen, not
> what I
> > >> want
> > >> >>>> either.
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>> If there is one thing about LBGT, it is that that struggle is
> still
> > >> being
> > >> >>>> fought. Hiding and keeping away does not work. It does not help
> the
> > >> LBGT
> > >> >>>> community. More importantly in this context it does not help the
> > >> >>>> Wikimedia
> > >> >>>> community. For the latter it is vital to make our message
> heard.We
> > >> aim to
> > >> >>>> share the sum of all knowledge and many people have not even
> heard
> > of
> > >> us.
> > >> >>>> Thank,
> > >> >>>>        GerardM
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>> On 18 October 2016 at 16:00, Pax Ahimsa Gethen <
> > >> >>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>> Gerard, this isn't about "holiday destinations", it's about human
> > >> rights
> > >> >>>>> and dignity. That's why I emphasized in my original post that
> I'm
> > >> >>>>> concerned
> > >> >>>>> not only about the safety of conference attendees, but also
> about
> > >> those
> > >> >>>>> living in the host country. The choice of a venue in a location
> > with
> > >> a
> > >> >>>>> poor
> > >> >>>>> human rights record reflects poorly upon Wikipedia/Wikimedia and
> > our
> > >> >>>>> mission to share knowledge. There's a reason a number of major
> > >> companies
> > >> >>>>> pulled their events and funding out of North Carolina after the
> > >> >>>>> restrictive
> > >> >>>>> restroom laws were passed for example...
> > >> >>>>>
> > >> >>>>> - Pax
> > >> >>>>>
> > >> >>>>>
> > >> >>>>>
> > >> >>>>> On 10/18/16 6:26 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
> > >> >>>>>
> > >> >>>>> Hoi,
> > >> >>>>>> For me safety is to a large extend secondary to what we aim to
> > >> achieve.
> > >> >>>>>> Our
> > >> >>>>>> primary goal is to improve on our primary goal and it is
> > "sharing in
> > >> >>>>>> the
> > >> >>>>>> sum of all knowledge". It is not for going to the perfect
> holiday
> > >> >>>>>> destination.
> > >> >>>>>> Thanks,
> > >> >>>>>>        GerardM
> > >> >>>>>>
> > >> >>>>>> On 18 October 2016 at 13:56, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >> >>>>>>
> > >> >>>>>> Gerard, could you provide some tangible examples of how other
> > safety
> > >> >>>>>>
> > >> >>>>>>> aspects of Wikimania would be compromised if there is any
> > specific
> > >> >>>>>>> attention paid to the safety of LGBT+ Wikimedians? I cannot
> > imagine
> > >> >>>>>>> how such a thing could be true.
> > >> >>>>>>>
> > >> >>>>>>> Based on my reading, nobody in this thread has asked for the
> > >> safety of
> > >> >>>>>>> LGBT+ attendees to be "prioritized" over other safety aspects.
> > >> Please
> > >> >>>>>>> don't make it appear as if they have.
> > >> >>>>>>>
> > >> >>>>>>> Thanks,
> > >> >>>>>>> Fae
> > >> >>>>>>>
> > >> >>>>>>> On 18 October 2016 at 11:42, Gerard Meijssen <
> > >> >>>>>>> [hidden email]
> > >> >>>>>>> wrote:
> > >> >>>>>>>
> > >> >>>>>>> Hoi,
> > >> >>>>>>>> I do care that everybody can come to places where they are
> > safe.
> > >> All
> > >> >>>>>>>> the
> > >> >>>>>>>> specific LGBT attention to safety is however on many levels
> > >> >>>>>>>> problematic
> > >> >>>>>>>> when we prioritise this over other safety aspects. The big
> > picture
> > >> >>>>>>>> for
> > >> >>>>>>>> me
> > >> >>>>>>>> is that we need to go to places where bringing Wikipedia and
> > what
> > >> it
> > >> >>>>>>>>
> > >> >>>>>>>> stands
> > >> >>>>>>>
> > >> >>>>>>> for the most good. It is why I would go to Russia, to China to
> > >> India
> > >> >>>>>>>> to
> > >> >>>>>>>> South Africa.
> > >> >>>>>>>>
> > >> >>>>>>>> --
> > >> >>>>>>> [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> > >> >>>>>>>
> > >> >>>>>>>
> > >> >> --
> > --
> > [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] LGBT+ safety considerations for conference venues

Isaac Olatunde
In reply to this post by Gerard Meijssen-3
Hi there,

Gerrad, you wrote ". Particularly women who wear a hijab will always be seen for
what they are." This comment is puzzling! What are they? Could you please clarify?

Best,

Isaac

Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless handheld from Glo Mobile.

-----Original Message-----
From: Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]>
Sender: "Wikimedia-l" <[hidden email]>Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 09:00:13
To: Wikimedia Mailing List<[hidden email]>
Reply-To: Wikimedia Mailing List <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] LGBT+ safety considerations for conference venues

Hoi,
You do not get it. Wikimania is first and foremost about spreading the word
about what we do and who we are.

I have read Pax's original post. He did not go to Wikimania. He asks for
consideration that any Wikimania will be in a place where he feels safe. It
is OK for him to ask this but it is not OK for us to give away what
Wikimania stands for.

There is no safe place and in my experience you are offensive by not
accepting that this is the point that I make. There is no perfect place for
Wikimania. Everywhere and always you have to behave yourself cognisant of
where you are. At all times there is one or the other group that will be
discriminated against.

Fae, muslims are at a greater risk than LGBT people when they come to a
conference. Particularly women who wear a hijab will always be seen for
what they are. It is not a lie that you do not address the point that I
make. The question is why do we have a Wikimania and is it an instrument to
open up new communities and include them in our movement.

This is the dominant question that should be answered. Relative safety is
secondary.
Thanks,
       GerardM

On 10 November 2016 at 08:46, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Gerard,
>
> Yes you are being offensive. You are deliberately painting a picture
> that somehow Pax, myself and others are attempting to make out that
> safety of LGBT+ Wikimedians is more important than safety of Women
> Wikimedians or the safety of Muslim Wikimedians. The only person doing
> that is you.
>
> You did the same thing on the 18th of October and it was pointed out
> to you that this was unacceptable, yet you are continuing to repeat
> it. Stop doing it, it is a lie, and the only person spreading it is you.
>
> Go back and read Pax's original post of 16th October which was positive
> about the Wikimania experience.
>
> Fae
>
> On 10 November 2016 at 06:57, Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > Hoi,
> > The notion of offence is one where you take it where there is none
> > certainly no offence is intended.
> >
> > When you consider Wikimanias past, we have been to places where there is
> a
> > "risk". Arguably there has been a risk in going to other countries in the
> > past. When you consider the events themselves, as a group, we have been
> > rather isolated in our conference. Many people were exhausted of the
> > proceedings. Others went partying and came to the conference when they
> felt
> > up to it.
> >
> > This whole notion of security has been high jacked by LGBT concerns. Let
> me
> > say that they are real. It would however be a travesty to say that they
> are
> > the only ones singled out for problems. Ask yourself, how many women
> > wearing a veil were there at the last Wikimania and at the one before.
> > Consider the stories about people, third generation Dutch, who are
> mistaken
> > for refugees and not safe in the streets of the place where I live.
> Stories
> > about not standing close to the gap at a railway station because ... They
> > are as much a reality, they are as real.
> >
> > So you may find it offensive and it is. People are not safe. But when
> that
> > stops us from talking about it, when it can not be said that security is
> > only one concern and not the most dominant one then I take offence. It
> > means that we can no longer exchange opinions. It means that we are only
> > concerned with our own narrow interest losing the big picture.
> >
> > So Fae, take it from me. You are wrong to call me out for being
> > disrespectful. By calling me out in this way you elevate your opinion and
> > put me down. Security is a concern but when fear is exchanged for
> prudence,
> > we will remove the one reason why we have Wikimania in the first place
> as a
> > worldwide conference. It is to go out and show the world who we are and
> > what we have to offer.
> >
> > When this is the prevailing opinion of our movement it does hardly matter
> > that we have Wikipedias in over 280 languages because English and its
> > culture is the only Wikipedia that counts. Now that is effectively an
> > existing prejudice that is dominated in much of what I observe we do. It
> is
> > another argument people feel offended. But hey most of you do not see it
> > this way because "things trickle down".. As an economic measure it failed
> > and it is how we ignore the major cultural differences that exist.
> >
> > Wikimania is not relevant when we do not go out and mingle world wide.
> When
> > we do not accept the differences that exist and make it our strength.
> > Thanks,
> >       GerardM
> >
> >
> > On 9 November 2016 at 18:28, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> Gerard,
> >>
> >> You have posted several emails on the subject which read as
> >> disrespectful, can cause offence and discourage LGBT+ contributors to
> >> this list who may have otherwise openly expressed views. The line of
> >> argument that LGBT+ Wikimedians must expect to be at personal risk
> >> just to attend a Wikimania is repugnant to me, and is likely to be for
> >> a majority of other readers. This point of view runs counter to the
> >> values of the WMF or recognized affiliates.
> >>
> >> If you wish to develop a better understanding of how the basic safety
> >> of all attendees at future Wikimanias and other conferences should be
> >> a priority, this may be better done on-wiki rather than repeating your
> >> points on this list.
> >>
> >> I warmly recommend a reality check with friends off-list as to what
> >> might be read as offensive, should you wish to continue posting
> >> further emails about this particular topic.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Fae
> >>
> >> On 9 November 2016 at 16:43, Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]
> >
> >> wrote:
> >> > Hoi,
> >> > What is the point. When not even the USA is "safe", we have to be
> >> > realistic. Wikimania is about propaganda for what we do. We have to
> >> travel
> >> > and selecting a place is not about you, it is about them. It is about
> the
> >> > people we aim to serve.
> >> >
> >> > I made my point before, it did not get any attention then and my
> argument
> >> > now is that nothing changed. It is only the perception of the USA that
> >> has
> >> > been dented by an unfortunate "democratic" choice by last night's
> >> election.
> >> > Thanks,
> >> >       GerardM
> >> >
> >> > On 9 November 2016 at 17:27, Pax Ahimsa Gethen <
> >> [hidden email]
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Gerard, as a queer black trans person who feels unsafe even in San
> >> >> Francisco (and has felt that way for years), I would really
> appreciate
> >> you
> >> >> not pushing last night's election results in my face to make a point.
> >> >>
> >> >> - Pax
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> On 11/9/16 8:24 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> Hoi,
> >> >>> Do you blame me for not feeling safe going to the USA?
> >> >>> Thanks,
> >> >>>       GerardM
> >> >>>
> >> >>> On 8 November 2016 at 11:08, Gerard Meijssen <
> >> [hidden email]>
> >> >>> wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Hoi,
> >> >>>> Not going to North Corolina is absolutely fine with me. We do not
> gain
> >> >>>> anything by going there arguably not to any state in the United
> >> States.
> >> >>>> What Wikimania is, is a platform for propaganda for what we have,
> >> what we
> >> >>>> do, who we are and how we do what we do. In many countries
> Wikipedia
> >> is
> >> >>>> not
> >> >>>> the house hold name it is in the USA.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Wikimania is not aimed for the English Wikipedia, it is aimed to
> >> further
> >> >>>> our movement. Not going to places is similar to saying that those
> >> other
> >> >>>> people, speaking other languages, with an other culture do not
> matter.
> >> >>>> They
> >> >>>> do.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> We should go to Russia, India, South Africa, China. The people of
> >> those
> >> >>>> countries should matter to us, the people we could share the sum of
> >> all
> >> >>>> knowledge with.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> THAT is what we do, sharing the sum of all knowledge.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> When the choice of the venue is only about being safe, we should
> not
> >> go
> >> >>>> to
> >> >>>> the USA (I do not feel safe there), we should go to Germany, to
> >> >>>> Switzerland
> >> >>>> and move the office as well. It is not likely to happen, not what I
> >> want
> >> >>>> either.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> If there is one thing about LBGT, it is that that struggle is still
> >> being
> >> >>>> fought. Hiding and keeping away does not work. It does not help the
> >> LBGT
> >> >>>> community. More importantly in this context it does not help the
> >> >>>> Wikimedia
> >> >>>> community. For the latter it is vital to make our message heard.We
> >> aim to
> >> >>>> share the sum of all knowledge and many people have not even heard
> of
> >> us.
> >> >>>> Thank,
> >> >>>>        GerardM
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> On 18 October 2016 at 16:00, Pax Ahimsa Gethen <
> >> >>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Gerard, this isn't about "holiday destinations", it's about human
> >> rights
> >> >>>>> and dignity. That's why I emphasized in my original post that I'm
> >> >>>>> concerned
> >> >>>>> not only about the safety of conference attendees, but also about
> >> those
> >> >>>>> living in the host country. The choice of a venue in a location
> with
> >> a
> >> >>>>> poor
> >> >>>>> human rights record reflects poorly upon Wikipedia/Wikimedia and
> our
> >> >>>>> mission to share knowledge. There's a reason a number of major
> >> companies
> >> >>>>> pulled their events and funding out of North Carolina after the
> >> >>>>> restrictive
> >> >>>>> restroom laws were passed for example...
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> - Pax
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> On 10/18/16 6:26 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Hoi,
> >> >>>>>> For me safety is to a large extend secondary to what we aim to
> >> achieve.
> >> >>>>>> Our
> >> >>>>>> primary goal is to improve on our primary goal and it is
> "sharing in
> >> >>>>>> the
> >> >>>>>> sum of all knowledge". It is not for going to the perfect holiday
> >> >>>>>> destination.
> >> >>>>>> Thanks,
> >> >>>>>>        GerardM
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> On 18 October 2016 at 13:56, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Gerard, could you provide some tangible examples of how other
> safety
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> aspects of Wikimania would be compromised if there is any
> specific
> >> >>>>>>> attention paid to the safety of LGBT+ Wikimedians? I cannot
> imagine
> >> >>>>>>> how such a thing could be true.
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> Based on my reading, nobody in this thread has asked for the
> >> safety of
> >> >>>>>>> LGBT+ attendees to be "prioritized" over other safety aspects.
> >> Please
> >> >>>>>>> don't make it appear as if they have.
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> Thanks,
> >> >>>>>>> Fae
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> On 18 October 2016 at 11:42, Gerard Meijssen <
> >> >>>>>>> [hidden email]
> >> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> Hoi,
> >> >>>>>>>> I do care that everybody can come to places where they are
> safe.
> >> All
> >> >>>>>>>> the
> >> >>>>>>>> specific LGBT attention to safety is however on many levels
> >> >>>>>>>> problematic
> >> >>>>>>>> when we prioritise this over other safety aspects. The big
> picture
> >> >>>>>>>> for
> >> >>>>>>>> me
> >> >>>>>>>> is that we need to go to places where bringing Wikipedia and
> what
> >> it
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> stands
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> for the most good. It is why I would go to Russia, to China to
> >> India
> >> >>>>>>>> to
> >> >>>>>>>> South Africa.
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> --
> >> >>>>>>> [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >> --
> --
> [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] LGBT+ safety considerations for conference venues

Andrew Lih
In reply to this post by Gerard Meijssen-3
On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 3:00 AM, Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hoi,
> You do not get it. Wikimania is first and foremost about spreading the word
> about what we do and who we are.
>

{{citationneeded}}

The reality is Wikimania is largely a community event first, with the
public outreach element an enhancement or afterthought.

The Wikimania meta page doesn’t include the words “spread”, “outreach”,
“public”, or “educate” at all.

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania

-Andrew
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] LGBT+ safety considerations for conference venues

Gerard Meijssen-3
Hoi,
In that case what is the point of Wikimania.
Thanks,
     GerardM

On 10 November 2016 at 14:25, Andrew Lih <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 3:00 AM, Gerard Meijssen <
> [hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Hoi,
> > You do not get it. Wikimania is first and foremost about spreading the
> word
> > about what we do and who we are.
> >
>
> {{citationneeded}}
>
> The reality is Wikimania is largely a community event first, with the
> public outreach element an enhancement or afterthought.
>
> The Wikimania meta page doesn’t include the words “spread”, “outreach”,
> “public”, or “educate” at all.
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania
>
> -Andrew
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] LGBT+ safety considerations for conference venues

jmh649
I see the primary point of Wikimania as an opportunity for the community to
meet in person once a year. Many important initiatives for our movement
have grown out of Wikimania including but not limited to: Wikivoyage, the
copyright detection bot, our collaboration with the World Health
Organization, our collaboration with Cochrane, our collaboration with the
NIH, efforts at offline distribution, etc. That the events garner attention
from local press is definitely a plus though :-)

James

On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 7:15 AM, Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hoi,
> In that case what is the point of Wikimania.
> Thanks,
>      GerardM
>
> On 10 November 2016 at 14:25, Andrew Lih <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 3:00 AM, Gerard Meijssen <
> > [hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hoi,
> > > You do not get it. Wikimania is first and foremost about spreading the
> > word
> > > about what we do and who we are.
> > >
> >
> > {{citationneeded}}
> >
> > The reality is Wikimania is largely a community event first, with the
> > public outreach element an enhancement or afterthought.
> >
> > The Wikimania meta page doesn’t include the words “spread”, “outreach”,
> > “public”, or “educate” at all.
> >
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania
> >
> > -Andrew
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
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> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: [hidden email]
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> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>



--
James Heilman
MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian

The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine
www.opentextbookofmedicine.com
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] LGBT+ safety considerations for conference venues

Gerard Meijssen-3
Hoi,
Exactly. It is the whole community that meets and it is regularly in a
different country because in this way we have been in all continents but
Australia and it has been wonderful to see the different outlook from the
local Wikipedians. When Wikimania is not about outreach we could have it
always in the same location. As it is, we have been in many countries that
each bring a different aspect to the sum of all knowledge.

The point I have been making is that we should be prudent but not afraid.
We should go where we meet important parts of our community, parts where we
aim to grow our base. When I arrived at Taiwan airport, I was welcomed with
big signs in the airport that people who smuggle drugs will be executed. I
do not do drugs so that was no problem. I have been sniffed at at many
border crossings and they are anxious moments. I am prudent so I know that
I am clean. I goto hotel, goto conference goto bed. (I am knackered after a
day at a conference).

It has always been worth it. I found that it is EXACTLY meeting new people
with their ideas that brings us forward. I am anxious when I go abroad but
it will not stop me. I consider what I have to do, how to behave and it
works for me. It can work for all of us. Even the Quran allows for people
to wear inconspicuous cloths in order to be safe. My point is that we all
can be ourselves at the conference itself and when we are at official
events.

We can be afraid but fear should not rule us.

NB when there are no sources, consider that for some things do not need to
be written down to be valid. My expectations of Wikimania and Wikipedia is
often contrary to common held opinions. They come from the fact that
Wikipedia and English is not my priority. Sharing the sum of all knowledge
is.
Thanks,
      GerardM

On 10 November 2016 at 15:45, James Heilman <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I see the primary point of Wikimania as an opportunity for the community to
> meet in person once a year. Many important initiatives for our movement
> have grown out of Wikimania including but not limited to: Wikivoyage, the
> copyright detection bot, our collaboration with the World Health
> Organization, our collaboration with Cochrane, our collaboration with the
> NIH, efforts at offline distribution, etc. That the events garner attention
> from local press is definitely a plus though :-)
>
> James
>
> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 7:15 AM, Gerard Meijssen <
> [hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Hoi,
> > In that case what is the point of Wikimania.
> > Thanks,
> >      GerardM
> >
> > On 10 November 2016 at 14:25, Andrew Lih <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 3:00 AM, Gerard Meijssen <
> > > [hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hoi,
> > > > You do not get it. Wikimania is first and foremost about spreading
> the
> > > word
> > > > about what we do and who we are.
> > > >
> > >
> > > {{citationneeded}}
> > >
> > > The reality is Wikimania is largely a community event first, with the
> > > public outreach element an enhancement or afterthought.
> > >
> > > The Wikimania meta page doesn’t include the words “spread”, “outreach”,
> > > “public”, or “educate” at all.
> > >
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania
> > >
> > > -Andrew
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
>
>
>
> --
> James Heilman
> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
>
> The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine
> www.opentextbookofmedicine.com
> _______________________________________________
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>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] LGBT+ safety considerations for conference venues

Pax Ahimsa Gethen
In reply to this post by Gerard Meijssen-3
It is correct I have yet to attend a Wikimania conference, but was
planning to after my positive experience presenting at WikiConference
North America.

Please note the "Muslim" and "LGBT" are not mutually exclusive. Same
with any other marginalized groups you might name.

FYI my preferred pronoun is "they" not "he".

To clarify what it is I actually asked, here is a copy of my original post:

> Hello all. I had a positive experience at WikiConference North America
> last weekend, where I gave a talk on transgender issues and
> Wikipedia.[1] I'm posting because there's an active discussion in
> Wikipedia Weekly on Facebook about choosing a host country for
> Wikimania 2018.[2] I am concerned that some of the suggestions are not
> taking into account the safety of LGBT+ people; not just those
> attending the conference, but also those living in the host country.
>
> As a queer trans atheist in a same-sex marriage, there are a number of
> places where I am considered a criminal for just existing or going
> about my daily routine. This applies to some parts of the U.S. as
> well, by the way; I won't be visiting North Carolina as long as it's
> illegal for me to use the men's restroom there. Please keep these
> considerations in mind when planning meetups and conferences. Thank you.
>
> - Pax aka Funcrunch
>
> [1]
> http://funcrunch.org/blog/2016/10/12/making-connections-at-wikiconference-north-america/ 
>
>
> [2]
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/wikipediaweekly/permalink/1114259788621851/

- Pax


On 11/10/16 12:00 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:

> Hoi,
> You do not get it. Wikimania is first and foremost about spreading the word
> about what we do and who we are.
>
> I have read Pax's original post. He did not go to Wikimania. He asks for
> consideration that any Wikimania will be in a place where he feels safe. It
> is OK for him to ask this but it is not OK for us to give away what
> Wikimania stands for.
>
> There is no safe place and in my experience you are offensive by not
> accepting that this is the point that I make. There is no perfect place for
> Wikimania. Everywhere and always you have to behave yourself cognisant of
> where you are. At all times there is one or the other group that will be
> discriminated against.
>
> Fae, muslims are at a greater risk than LGBT people when they come to a
> conference. Particularly women who wear a hijab will always be seen for
> what they are. It is not a lie that you do not address the point that I
> make. The question is why do we have a Wikimania and is it an instrument to
> open up new communities and include them in our movement.
>
> This is the dominant question that should be answered. Relative safety is
> secondary.
> Thanks,
>         GerardM
>
> On 10 November 2016 at 08:46, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Gerard,
>>
>> Yes you are being offensive. You are deliberately painting a picture
>> that somehow Pax, myself and others are attempting to make out that
>> safety of LGBT+ Wikimedians is more important than safety of Women
>> Wikimedians or the safety of Muslim Wikimedians. The only person doing
>> that is you.
>>
>> You did the same thing on the 18th of October and it was pointed out
>> to you that this was unacceptable, yet you are continuing to repeat
>> it. Stop doing it, it is a lie, and the only person spreading it is you.
>>
>> Go back and read Pax's original post of 16th October which was positive
>> about the Wikimania experience.
>>
>> Fae
>>
>> On 10 November 2016 at 06:57, Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>> Hoi,
>>> The notion of offence is one where you take it where there is none
>>> certainly no offence is intended.
>>>
>>> When you consider Wikimanias past, we have been to places where there is
>> a
>>> "risk". Arguably there has been a risk in going to other countries in the
>>> past. When you consider the events themselves, as a group, we have been
>>> rather isolated in our conference. Many people were exhausted of the
>>> proceedings. Others went partying and came to the conference when they
>> felt
>>> up to it.
>>>
>>> This whole notion of security has been high jacked by LGBT concerns. Let
>> me
>>> say that they are real. It would however be a travesty to say that they
>> are
>>> the only ones singled out for problems. Ask yourself, how many women
>>> wearing a veil were there at the last Wikimania and at the one before.
>>> Consider the stories about people, third generation Dutch, who are
>> mistaken
>>> for refugees and not safe in the streets of the place where I live.
>> Stories
>>> about not standing close to the gap at a railway station because ... They
>>> are as much a reality, they are as real.
>>>
>>> So you may find it offensive and it is. People are not safe. But when
>> that
>>> stops us from talking about it, when it can not be said that security is
>>> only one concern and not the most dominant one then I take offence. It
>>> means that we can no longer exchange opinions. It means that we are only
>>> concerned with our own narrow interest losing the big picture.
>>>
>>> So Fae, take it from me. You are wrong to call me out for being
>>> disrespectful. By calling me out in this way you elevate your opinion and
>>> put me down. Security is a concern but when fear is exchanged for
>> prudence,
>>> we will remove the one reason why we have Wikimania in the first place
>> as a
>>> worldwide conference. It is to go out and show the world who we are and
>>> what we have to offer.
>>>
>>> When this is the prevailing opinion of our movement it does hardly matter
>>> that we have Wikipedias in over 280 languages because English and its
>>> culture is the only Wikipedia that counts. Now that is effectively an
>>> existing prejudice that is dominated in much of what I observe we do. It
>> is
>>> another argument people feel offended. But hey most of you do not see it
>>> this way because "things trickle down".. As an economic measure it failed
>>> and it is how we ignore the major cultural differences that exist.
>>>
>>> Wikimania is not relevant when we do not go out and mingle world wide.
>> When
>>> we do not accept the differences that exist and make it our strength.
>>> Thanks,
>>>        GerardM
>>>
>>>
>>> On 9 November 2016 at 18:28, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Gerard,
>>>>
>>>> You have posted several emails on the subject which read as
>>>> disrespectful, can cause offence and discourage LGBT+ contributors to
>>>> this list who may have otherwise openly expressed views. The line of
>>>> argument that LGBT+ Wikimedians must expect to be at personal risk
>>>> just to attend a Wikimania is repugnant to me, and is likely to be for
>>>> a majority of other readers. This point of view runs counter to the
>>>> values of the WMF or recognized affiliates.
>>>>
>>>> If you wish to develop a better understanding of how the basic safety
>>>> of all attendees at future Wikimanias and other conferences should be
>>>> a priority, this may be better done on-wiki rather than repeating your
>>>> points on this list.
>>>>
>>>> I warmly recommend a reality check with friends off-list as to what
>>>> might be read as offensive, should you wish to continue posting
>>>> further emails about this particular topic.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Fae
>>>>
>>>> On 9 November 2016 at 16:43, Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Hoi,
>>>>> What is the point. When not even the USA is "safe", we have to be
>>>>> realistic. Wikimania is about propaganda for what we do. We have to
>>>> travel
>>>>> and selecting a place is not about you, it is about them. It is about
>> the
>>>>> people we aim to serve.
>>>>>
>>>>> I made my point before, it did not get any attention then and my
>> argument
>>>>> now is that nothing changed. It is only the perception of the USA that
>>>> has
>>>>> been dented by an unfortunate "democratic" choice by last night's
>>>> election.
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>        GerardM
>>>>>
>>>>> On 9 November 2016 at 17:27, Pax Ahimsa Gethen <
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> Gerard, as a queer black trans person who feels unsafe even in San
>>>>>> Francisco (and has felt that way for years), I would really
>> appreciate
>>>> you
>>>>>> not pushing last night's election results in my face to make a point.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Pax
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/9/16 8:24 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hoi,
>>>>>>> Do you blame me for not feeling safe going to the USA?
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>        GerardM
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 8 November 2016 at 11:08, Gerard Meijssen <
>>>> [hidden email]>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hoi,
>>>>>>>> Not going to North Corolina is absolutely fine with me. We do not
>> gain
>>>>>>>> anything by going there arguably not to any state in the United
>>>> States.
>>>>>>>> What Wikimania is, is a platform for propaganda for what we have,
>>>> what we
>>>>>>>> do, who we are and how we do what we do. In many countries
>> Wikipedia
>>>> is
>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> the house hold name it is in the USA.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Wikimania is not aimed for the English Wikipedia, it is aimed to
>>>> further
>>>>>>>> our movement. Not going to places is similar to saying that those
>>>> other
>>>>>>>> people, speaking other languages, with an other culture do not
>> matter.
>>>>>>>> They
>>>>>>>> do.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We should go to Russia, India, South Africa, China. The people of
>>>> those
>>>>>>>> countries should matter to us, the people we could share the sum of
>>>> all
>>>>>>>> knowledge with.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> THAT is what we do, sharing the sum of all knowledge.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> When the choice of the venue is only about being safe, we should
>> not
>>>> go
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> the USA (I do not feel safe there), we should go to Germany, to
>>>>>>>> Switzerland
>>>>>>>> and move the office as well. It is not likely to happen, not what I
>>>> want
>>>>>>>> either.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If there is one thing about LBGT, it is that that struggle is still
>>>> being
>>>>>>>> fought. Hiding and keeping away does not work. It does not help the
>>>> LBGT
>>>>>>>> community. More importantly in this context it does not help the
>>>>>>>> Wikimedia
>>>>>>>> community. For the latter it is vital to make our message heard.We
>>>> aim to
>>>>>>>> share the sum of all knowledge and many people have not even heard
>> of
>>>> us.
>>>>>>>> Thank,
>>>>>>>>         GerardM
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 18 October 2016 at 16:00, Pax Ahimsa Gethen <
>>>>>>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Gerard, this isn't about "holiday destinations", it's about human
>>>> rights
>>>>>>>>> and dignity. That's why I emphasized in my original post that I'm
>>>>>>>>> concerned
>>>>>>>>> not only about the safety of conference attendees, but also about
>>>> those
>>>>>>>>> living in the host country. The choice of a venue in a location
>> with
>>>> a
>>>>>>>>> poor
>>>>>>>>> human rights record reflects poorly upon Wikipedia/Wikimedia and
>> our
>>>>>>>>> mission to share knowledge. There's a reason a number of major
>>>> companies
>>>>>>>>> pulled their events and funding out of North Carolina after the
>>>>>>>>> restrictive
>>>>>>>>> restroom laws were passed for example...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> - Pax
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 10/18/16 6:26 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hoi,
>>>>>>>>>> For me safety is to a large extend secondary to what we aim to
>>>> achieve.
>>>>>>>>>> Our
>>>>>>>>>> primary goal is to improve on our primary goal and it is
>> "sharing in
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> sum of all knowledge". It is not for going to the perfect holiday
>>>>>>>>>> destination.
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>         GerardM
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 18 October 2016 at 13:56, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Gerard, could you provide some tangible examples of how other
>> safety
>>>>>>>>>>> aspects of Wikimania would be compromised if there is any
>> specific
>>>>>>>>>>> attention paid to the safety of LGBT+ Wikimedians? I cannot
>> imagine
>>>>>>>>>>> how such a thing could be true.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Based on my reading, nobody in this thread has asked for the
>>>> safety of
>>>>>>>>>>> LGBT+ attendees to be "prioritized" over other safety aspects.
>>>> Please
>>>>>>>>>>> don't make it appear as if they have.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>> Fae
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 18 October 2016 at 11:42, Gerard Meijssen <
>>>>>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hoi,
>>>>>>>>>>>> I do care that everybody can come to places where they are
>> safe.
>>>> All
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> specific LGBT attention to safety is however on many levels
>>>>>>>>>>>> problematic
>>>>>>>>>>>> when we prioritise this over other safety aspects. The big
>> picture
>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>>>>>> is that we need to go to places where bringing Wikipedia and
>> what
>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>> stands
>>>>>>>>>>> for the most good. It is why I would go to Russia, to China to
>>>> India
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> South Africa.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae

--
Pax Ahimsa Gethen | http://funcrunch.org


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] LGBT+ safety considerations for conference venues

Gnangarra
"Foreigners" are at an increased risk regardless of where they travel thats
the reality of international travel, additionally each persons individual
circumstances will affect those risks.  What we shouldnt be doing is
engaging in a contest as to whos circumstances gives them the greater risk
and thus a greater value as a contributor.  Sitting at a keyboard improving
content we are all equals everyone is important.



On 10 November 2016 at 23:40, Pax Ahimsa Gethen <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> It is correct I have yet to attend a Wikimania conference, but was
> planning to after my positive experience presenting at WikiConference North
> America.
>
> Please note the "Muslim" and "LGBT" are not mutually exclusive. Same with
> any other marginalized groups you might name.
>
> FYI my preferred pronoun is "they" not "he".
>
> To clarify what it is I actually asked, here is a copy of my original post:
>
> Hello all. I had a positive experience at WikiConference North America
>> last weekend, where I gave a talk on transgender issues and Wikipedia.[1]
>> I'm posting because there's an active discussion in Wikipedia Weekly on
>> Facebook about choosing a host country for Wikimania 2018.[2] I am
>> concerned that some of the suggestions are not taking into account the
>> safety of LGBT+ people; not just those attending the conference, but also
>> those living in the host country.
>>
>> As a queer trans atheist in a same-sex marriage, there are a number of
>> places where I am considered a criminal for just existing or going about my
>> daily routine. This applies to some parts of the U.S. as well, by the way;
>> I won't be visiting North Carolina as long as it's illegal for me to use
>> the men's restroom there. Please keep these considerations in mind when
>> planning meetups and conferences. Thank you.
>>
>> - Pax aka Funcrunch
>>
>> [1] http://funcrunch.org/blog/2016/10/12/making-connections-at-
>> wikiconference-north-america/
>>
>> [2] https://www.facebook.com/groups/wikipediaweekly/permalink/
>> 1114259788621851/
>>
>
> - Pax
>
>
>
> On 11/10/16 12:00 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>
>> Hoi,
>> You do not get it. Wikimania is first and foremost about spreading the
>> word
>> about what we do and who we are.
>>
>> I have read Pax's original post. He did not go to Wikimania. He asks for
>> consideration that any Wikimania will be in a place where he feels safe.
>> It
>> is OK for him to ask this but it is not OK for us to give away what
>> Wikimania stands for.
>>
>> There is no safe place and in my experience you are offensive by not
>> accepting that this is the point that I make. There is no perfect place
>> for
>> Wikimania. Everywhere and always you have to behave yourself cognisant of
>> where you are. At all times there is one or the other group that will be
>> discriminated against.
>>
>> Fae, muslims are at a greater risk than LGBT people when they come to a
>> conference. Particularly women who wear a hijab will always be seen for
>> what they are. It is not a lie that you do not address the point that I
>> make. The question is why do we have a Wikimania and is it an instrument
>> to
>> open up new communities and include them in our movement.
>>
>> This is the dominant question that should be answered. Relative safety is
>> secondary.
>> Thanks,
>>         GerardM
>>
>> On 10 November 2016 at 08:46, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Gerard,
>>>
>>> Yes you are being offensive. You are deliberately painting a picture
>>> that somehow Pax, myself and others are attempting to make out that
>>> safety of LGBT+ Wikimedians is more important than safety of Women
>>> Wikimedians or the safety of Muslim Wikimedians. The only person doing
>>> that is you.
>>>
>>> You did the same thing on the 18th of October and it was pointed out
>>> to you that this was unacceptable, yet you are continuing to repeat
>>> it. Stop doing it, it is a lie, and the only person spreading it is you.
>>>
>>> Go back and read Pax's original post of 16th October which was positive
>>> about the Wikimania experience.
>>>
>>> Fae
>>>
>>> On 10 November 2016 at 06:57, Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]
>>> >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hoi,
>>>> The notion of offence is one where you take it where there is none
>>>> certainly no offence is intended.
>>>>
>>>> When you consider Wikimanias past, we have been to places where there is
>>>>
>>> a
>>>
>>>> "risk". Arguably there has been a risk in going to other countries in
>>>> the
>>>> past. When you consider the events themselves, as a group, we have been
>>>> rather isolated in our conference. Many people were exhausted of the
>>>> proceedings. Others went partying and came to the conference when they
>>>>
>>> felt
>>>
>>>> up to it.
>>>>
>>>> This whole notion of security has been high jacked by LGBT concerns. Let
>>>>
>>> me
>>>
>>>> say that they are real. It would however be a travesty to say that they
>>>>
>>> are
>>>
>>>> the only ones singled out for problems. Ask yourself, how many women
>>>> wearing a veil were there at the last Wikimania and at the one before.
>>>> Consider the stories about people, third generation Dutch, who are
>>>>
>>> mistaken
>>>
>>>> for refugees and not safe in the streets of the place where I live.
>>>>
>>> Stories
>>>
>>>> about not standing close to the gap at a railway station because ...
>>>> They
>>>> are as much a reality, they are as real.
>>>>
>>>> So you may find it offensive and it is. People are not safe. But when
>>>>
>>> that
>>>
>>>> stops us from talking about it, when it can not be said that security is
>>>> only one concern and not the most dominant one then I take offence. It
>>>> means that we can no longer exchange opinions. It means that we are only
>>>> concerned with our own narrow interest losing the big picture.
>>>>
>>>> So Fae, take it from me. You are wrong to call me out for being
>>>> disrespectful. By calling me out in this way you elevate your opinion
>>>> and
>>>> put me down. Security is a concern but when fear is exchanged for
>>>>
>>> prudence,
>>>
>>>> we will remove the one reason why we have Wikimania in the first place
>>>>
>>> as a
>>>
>>>> worldwide conference. It is to go out and show the world who we are and
>>>> what we have to offer.
>>>>
>>>> When this is the prevailing opinion of our movement it does hardly
>>>> matter
>>>> that we have Wikipedias in over 280 languages because English and its
>>>> culture is the only Wikipedia that counts. Now that is effectively an
>>>> existing prejudice that is dominated in much of what I observe we do. It
>>>>
>>> is
>>>
>>>> another argument people feel offended. But hey most of you do not see it
>>>> this way because "things trickle down".. As an economic measure it
>>>> failed
>>>> and it is how we ignore the major cultural differences that exist.
>>>>
>>>> Wikimania is not relevant when we do not go out and mingle world wide.
>>>>
>>> When
>>>
>>>> we do not accept the differences that exist and make it our strength.
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>        GerardM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 9 November 2016 at 18:28, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Gerard,
>>>>>
>>>>> You have posted several emails on the subject which read as
>>>>> disrespectful, can cause offence and discourage LGBT+ contributors to
>>>>> this list who may have otherwise openly expressed views. The line of
>>>>> argument that LGBT+ Wikimedians must expect to be at personal risk
>>>>> just to attend a Wikimania is repugnant to me, and is likely to be for
>>>>> a majority of other readers. This point of view runs counter to the
>>>>> values of the WMF or recognized affiliates.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you wish to develop a better understanding of how the basic safety
>>>>> of all attendees at future Wikimanias and other conferences should be
>>>>> a priority, this may be better done on-wiki rather than repeating your
>>>>> points on this list.
>>>>>
>>>>> I warmly recommend a reality check with friends off-list as to what
>>>>> might be read as offensive, should you wish to continue posting
>>>>> further emails about this particular topic.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Fae
>>>>>
>>>>> On 9 November 2016 at 16:43, Gerard Meijssen <
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hoi,
>>>>>> What is the point. When not even the USA is "safe", we have to be
>>>>>> realistic. Wikimania is about propaganda for what we do. We have to
>>>>>>
>>>>> travel
>>>>>
>>>>>> and selecting a place is not about you, it is about them. It is about
>>>>>>
>>>>> the
>>>
>>>> people we aim to serve.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I made my point before, it did not get any attention then and my
>>>>>>
>>>>> argument
>>>
>>>> now is that nothing changed. It is only the perception of the USA that
>>>>>>
>>>>> has
>>>>>
>>>>>> been dented by an unfortunate "democratic" choice by last night's
>>>>>>
>>>>> election.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>        GerardM
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 9 November 2016 at 17:27, Pax Ahimsa Gethen <
>>>>>>
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> Gerard, as a queer black trans person who feels unsafe even in San
>>>>>>> Francisco (and has felt that way for years), I would really
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> appreciate
>>>
>>>> you
>>>>>
>>>>>> not pushing last night's election results in my face to make a point.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> - Pax
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 11/9/16 8:24 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hoi,
>>>>>>>> Do you blame me for not feeling safe going to the USA?
>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>        GerardM
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 8 November 2016 at 11:08, Gerard Meijssen <
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [hidden email]>
>>>>>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hoi,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Not going to North Corolina is absolutely fine with me. We do not
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> gain
>>>
>>>> anything by going there arguably not to any state in the United
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> States.
>>>>>
>>>>>> What Wikimania is, is a platform for propaganda for what we have,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> what we
>>>>>
>>>>>> do, who we are and how we do what we do. In many countries
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Wikipedia
>>>
>>>> is
>>>>>
>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>> the house hold name it is in the USA.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Wikimania is not aimed for the English Wikipedia, it is aimed to
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> further
>>>>>
>>>>>> our movement. Not going to places is similar to saying that those
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>
>>>>>> people, speaking other languages, with an other culture do not
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> matter.
>>>
>>>> They
>>>>>>>>> do.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We should go to Russia, India, South Africa, China. The people of
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>
>>>>>> countries should matter to us, the people we could share the sum of
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>
>>>>>> knowledge with.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> THAT is what we do, sharing the sum of all knowledge.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> When the choice of the venue is only about being safe, we should
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> not
>>>
>>>> go
>>>>>
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> the USA (I do not feel safe there), we should go to Germany, to
>>>>>>>>> Switzerland
>>>>>>>>> and move the office as well. It is not likely to happen, not what I
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> want
>>>>>
>>>>>> either.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If there is one thing about LBGT, it is that that struggle is still
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> being
>>>>>
>>>>>> fought. Hiding and keeping away does not work. It does not help the
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> LBGT
>>>>>
>>>>>> community. More importantly in this context it does not help the
>>>>>>>>> Wikimedia
>>>>>>>>> community. For the latter it is vital to make our message heard.We
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> aim to
>>>>>
>>>>>> share the sum of all knowledge and many people have not even heard
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> of
>>>
>>>> us.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank,
>>>>>>>>>         GerardM
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 18 October 2016 at 16:00, Pax Ahimsa Gethen <
>>>>>>>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Gerard, this isn't about "holiday destinations", it's about human
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> rights
>>>>>
>>>>>> and dignity. That's why I emphasized in my original post that I'm
>>>>>>>>>> concerned
>>>>>>>>>> not only about the safety of conference attendees, but also about
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>
>>>>>> living in the host country. The choice of a venue in a location
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> with
>>>
>>>> a
>>>>>
>>>>>> poor
>>>>>>>>>> human rights record reflects poorly upon Wikipedia/Wikimedia and
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> our
>>>
>>>> mission to share knowledge. There's a reason a number of major
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> companies
>>>>>
>>>>>> pulled their events and funding out of North Carolina after the
>>>>>>>>>> restrictive
>>>>>>>>>> restroom laws were passed for example...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> - Pax
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 10/18/16 6:26 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hoi,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> For me safety is to a large extend secondary to what we aim to
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> achieve.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Our
>>>>>>>>>>> primary goal is to improve on our primary goal and it is
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "sharing in
>>>
>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> sum of all knowledge". It is not for going to the perfect holiday
>>>>>>>>>>> destination.
>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>>         GerardM
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 18 October 2016 at 13:56, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Gerard, could you provide some tangible examples of how other
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> safety
>>>
>>>> aspects of Wikimania would be compromised if there is any
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> specific
>>>
>>>> attention paid to the safety of LGBT+ Wikimedians? I cannot
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> imagine
>>>
>>>> how such a thing could be true.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Based on my reading, nobody in this thread has asked for the
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> safety of
>>>>>
>>>>>> LGBT+ attendees to be "prioritized" over other safety aspects.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Please
>>>>>
>>>>>> don't make it appear as if they have.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Fae
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 18 October 2016 at 11:42, Gerard Meijssen <
>>>>>>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hoi,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I do care that everybody can come to places where they are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> safe.
>>>
>>>> All
>>>>>
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> specific LGBT attention to safety is however on many levels
>>>>>>>>>>>>> problematic
>>>>>>>>>>>>> when we prioritise this over other safety aspects. The big
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> picture
>>>
>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is that we need to go to places where bringing Wikipedia and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> what
>>>
>>>> it
>>>>>
>>>>>> stands
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> for the most good. It is why I would go to Russia, to China to
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> India
>>>>>
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> South Africa.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
> --
> Pax Ahimsa Gethen | http://funcrunch.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
> i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>



--
GN.
President Wikimedia Australia
WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] LGBT+ safety considerations for conference venues

Gregory Varnum-2
Greetings,

I wanted to take off my Wikimedia Foundation hat for a moment and offer
some thoughts as a fellow volunteer.

Without feeling physically/emotionally/mentally safe and free from
prosecutorial persecution, it is nearly impossible to actively engage.
Therefore, no goals can be achieved if creating a safe space is not a
consideration.

I mention prosecutorial persecution because the discussion thus far seems
to have focused on citizen based peer violence. The problem is that for
many communities, in this case the LGBT community, there are many other
elements involved as well. Holding Wikimania in a country where simply
being LGBT is a crime presents more than just a physical safety risk, it
presents the threat of prison or death sentence. There are additional risks
that LGBT people would take by being in that country even if we were
absolutely confident the police were going to stay away. For example, if a
LGBT person travels to a country where it is illegal, against the advice of
their government, their health insurance may not be willing to help them
should something happen (even if what happens has nothing to do with the
laws criminalizing LGBT people). Again, these risks and situations apply to
other communities as well, I am simply using this as an example.

Also, having engaged in conversations like this professionally for over a
decade, I want to encourage us to avoid ranking or comparing people's
experiences. The reality is that when you are the victim of discrimination,
harassment, or violence, that someone else may have had it worse than you
is not an especially helpful or even relevant factor. Additionally, it
cannot really be proven (facts matter), and more importantly here - does
not encourage productive dialogue.

I believe this is an important discussion to be having, and I am pleased to
see people engaging in it. However, I think it is important that we
accurately convey the scope of the topic, and avoid emotional triggers that
will derail dialogue. Given the emotional level for many, especially in the
US, following the election - I would also encourage people to consider
pausing and allowing things to calm down before re-engaging.

-greg (User:Varnent)

On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 6:41 PM Gnangarra <[hidden email]> wrote:

> "Foreigners" are at an increased risk regardless of where they travel thats
> the reality of international travel, additionally each persons individual
> circumstances will affect those risks.  What we shouldnt be doing is
> engaging in a contest as to whos circumstances gives them the greater risk
> and thus a greater value as a contributor.  Sitting at a keyboard improving
> content we are all equals everyone is important.
>
>
>
> On 10 November 2016 at 23:40, Pax Ahimsa Gethen <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > It is correct I have yet to attend a Wikimania conference, but was
> > planning to after my positive experience presenting at WikiConference
> North
> > America.
> >
> > Please note the "Muslim" and "LGBT" are not mutually exclusive. Same with
> > any other marginalized groups you might name.
> >
> > FYI my preferred pronoun is "they" not "he".
> >
> > To clarify what it is I actually asked, here is a copy of my original
> post:
> >
> > Hello all. I had a positive experience at WikiConference North America
> >> last weekend, where I gave a talk on transgender issues and
> Wikipedia.[1]
> >> I'm posting because there's an active discussion in Wikipedia Weekly on
> >> Facebook about choosing a host country for Wikimania 2018.[2] I am
> >> concerned that some of the suggestions are not taking into account the
> >> safety of LGBT+ people; not just those attending the conference, but
> also
> >> those living in the host country.
> >>
> >> As a queer trans atheist in a same-sex marriage, there are a number of
> >> places where I am considered a criminal for just existing or going
> about my
> >> daily routine. This applies to some parts of the U.S. as well, by the
> way;
> >> I won't be visiting North Carolina as long as it's illegal for me to use
> >> the men's restroom there. Please keep these considerations in mind when
> >> planning meetups and conferences. Thank you.
> >>
> >> - Pax aka Funcrunch
> >>
> >> [1] http://funcrunch.org/blog/2016/10/12/making-connections-at-
> >> wikiconference-north-america/
> >>
> >> [2] https://www.facebook.com/groups/wikipediaweekly/permalink/
> >> 1114259788621851/
> >>
> >
> > - Pax
> >
> >
> >
> > On 11/10/16 12:00 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
> >
> >> Hoi,
> >> You do not get it. Wikimania is first and foremost about spreading the
> >> word
> >> about what we do and who we are.
> >>
> >> I have read Pax's original post. He did not go to Wikimania. He asks for
> >> consideration that any Wikimania will be in a place where he feels safe.
> >> It
> >> is OK for him to ask this but it is not OK for us to give away what
> >> Wikimania stands for.
> >>
> >> There is no safe place and in my experience you are offensive by not
> >> accepting that this is the point that I make. There is no perfect place
> >> for
> >> Wikimania. Everywhere and always you have to behave yourself cognisant
> of
> >> where you are. At all times there is one or the other group that will be
> >> discriminated against.
> >>
> >> Fae, muslims are at a greater risk than LGBT people when they come to a
> >> conference. Particularly women who wear a hijab will always be seen for
> >> what they are. It is not a lie that you do not address the point that I
> >> make. The question is why do we have a Wikimania and is it an instrument
> >> to
> >> open up new communities and include them in our movement.
> >>
> >> This is the dominant question that should be answered. Relative safety
> is
> >> secondary.
> >> Thanks,
> >>         GerardM
> >>
> >> On 10 November 2016 at 08:46, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>
> >> Gerard,
> >>>
> >>> Yes you are being offensive. You are deliberately painting a picture
> >>> that somehow Pax, myself and others are attempting to make out that
> >>> safety of LGBT+ Wikimedians is more important than safety of Women
> >>> Wikimedians or the safety of Muslim Wikimedians. The only person doing
> >>> that is you.
> >>>
> >>> You did the same thing on the 18th of October and it was pointed out
> >>> to you that this was unacceptable, yet you are continuing to repeat
> >>> it. Stop doing it, it is a lie, and the only person spreading it is
> you.
> >>>
> >>> Go back and read Pax's original post of 16th October which was positive
> >>> about the Wikimania experience.
> >>>
> >>> Fae
> >>>
> >>> On 10 November 2016 at 06:57, Gerard Meijssen <
> [hidden email]
> >>> >
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Hoi,
> >>>> The notion of offence is one where you take it where there is none
> >>>> certainly no offence is intended.
> >>>>
> >>>> When you consider Wikimanias past, we have been to places where there
> is
> >>>>
> >>> a
> >>>
> >>>> "risk". Arguably there has been a risk in going to other countries in
> >>>> the
> >>>> past. When you consider the events themselves, as a group, we have
> been
> >>>> rather isolated in our conference. Many people were exhausted of the
> >>>> proceedings. Others went partying and came to the conference when they
> >>>>
> >>> felt
> >>>
> >>>> up to it.
> >>>>
> >>>> This whole notion of security has been high jacked by LGBT concerns.
> Let
> >>>>
> >>> me
> >>>
> >>>> say that they are real. It would however be a travesty to say that
> they
> >>>>
> >>> are
> >>>
> >>>> the only ones singled out for problems. Ask yourself, how many women
> >>>> wearing a veil were there at the last Wikimania and at the one before.
> >>>> Consider the stories about people, third generation Dutch, who are
> >>>>
> >>> mistaken
> >>>
> >>>> for refugees and not safe in the streets of the place where I live.
> >>>>
> >>> Stories
> >>>
> >>>> about not standing close to the gap at a railway station because ...
> >>>> They
> >>>> are as much a reality, they are as real.
> >>>>
> >>>> So you may find it offensive and it is. People are not safe. But when
> >>>>
> >>> that
> >>>
> >>>> stops us from talking about it, when it can not be said that security
> is
> >>>> only one concern and not the most dominant one then I take offence. It
> >>>> means that we can no longer exchange opinions. It means that we are
> only
> >>>> concerned with our own narrow interest losing the big picture.
> >>>>
> >>>> So Fae, take it from me. You are wrong to call me out for being
> >>>> disrespectful. By calling me out in this way you elevate your opinion
> >>>> and
> >>>> put me down. Security is a concern but when fear is exchanged for
> >>>>
> >>> prudence,
> >>>
> >>>> we will remove the one reason why we have Wikimania in the first place
> >>>>
> >>> as a
> >>>
> >>>> worldwide conference. It is to go out and show the world who we are
> and
> >>>> what we have to offer.
> >>>>
> >>>> When this is the prevailing opinion of our movement it does hardly
> >>>> matter
> >>>> that we have Wikipedias in over 280 languages because English and its
> >>>> culture is the only Wikipedia that counts. Now that is effectively an
> >>>> existing prejudice that is dominated in much of what I observe we do.
> It
> >>>>
> >>> is
> >>>
> >>>> another argument people feel offended. But hey most of you do not see
> it
> >>>> this way because "things trickle down".. As an economic measure it
> >>>> failed
> >>>> and it is how we ignore the major cultural differences that exist.
> >>>>
> >>>> Wikimania is not relevant when we do not go out and mingle world wide.
> >>>>
> >>> When
> >>>
> >>>> we do not accept the differences that exist and make it our strength.
> >>>> Thanks,
> >>>>        GerardM
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On 9 November 2016 at 18:28, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Gerard,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> You have posted several emails on the subject which read as
> >>>>> disrespectful, can cause offence and discourage LGBT+ contributors to
> >>>>> this list who may have otherwise openly expressed views. The line of
> >>>>> argument that LGBT+ Wikimedians must expect to be at personal risk
> >>>>> just to attend a Wikimania is repugnant to me, and is likely to be
> for
> >>>>> a majority of other readers. This point of view runs counter to the
> >>>>> values of the WMF or recognized affiliates.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> If you wish to develop a better understanding of how the basic safety
> >>>>> of all attendees at future Wikimanias and other conferences should be
> >>>>> a priority, this may be better done on-wiki rather than repeating
> your
> >>>>> points on this list.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I warmly recommend a reality check with friends off-list as to what
> >>>>> might be read as offensive, should you wish to continue posting
> >>>>> further emails about this particular topic.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>> Fae
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 9 November 2016 at 16:43, Gerard Meijssen <
> >>>>> [hidden email]
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Hoi,
> >>>>>> What is the point. When not even the USA is "safe", we have to be
> >>>>>> realistic. Wikimania is about propaganda for what we do. We have to
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> travel
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> and selecting a place is not about you, it is about them. It is
> about
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> the
> >>>
> >>>> people we aim to serve.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I made my point before, it did not get any attention then and my
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> argument
> >>>
> >>>> now is that nothing changed. It is only the perception of the USA that
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> has
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> been dented by an unfortunate "democratic" choice by last night's
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> election.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>        GerardM
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On 9 November 2016 at 17:27, Pax Ahimsa Gethen <
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> [hidden email]
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>> Gerard, as a queer black trans person who feels unsafe even in San
> >>>>>>> Francisco (and has felt that way for years), I would really
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> appreciate
> >>>
> >>>> you
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> not pushing last night's election results in my face to make a
> point.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> - Pax
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On 11/9/16 8:24 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Hoi,
> >>>>>>>> Do you blame me for not feeling safe going to the USA?
> >>>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>>>        GerardM
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On 8 November 2016 at 11:08, Gerard Meijssen <
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> [hidden email]>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Hoi,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Not going to North Corolina is absolutely fine with me. We do not
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> gain
> >>>
> >>>> anything by going there arguably not to any state in the United
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> States.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> What Wikimania is, is a platform for propaganda for what we have,
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> what we
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> do, who we are and how we do what we do. In many countries
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Wikipedia
> >>>
> >>>> is
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> not
> >>>>>>>>> the house hold name it is in the USA.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Wikimania is not aimed for the English Wikipedia, it is aimed to
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> further
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> our movement. Not going to places is similar to saying that those
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> other
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> people, speaking other languages, with an other culture do not
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> matter.
> >>>
> >>>> They
> >>>>>>>>> do.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> We should go to Russia, India, South Africa, China. The people of
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> those
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> countries should matter to us, the people we could share the sum of
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> all
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> knowledge with.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> THAT is what we do, sharing the sum of all knowledge.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> When the choice of the venue is only about being safe, we should
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> not
> >>>
> >>>> go
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>> the USA (I do not feel safe there), we should go to Germany, to
> >>>>>>>>> Switzerland
> >>>>>>>>> and move the office as well. It is not likely to happen, not
> what I
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> want
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> either.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> If there is one thing about LBGT, it is that that struggle is
> still
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> being
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> fought. Hiding and keeping away does not work. It does not help the
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> LBGT
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> community. More importantly in this context it does not help the
> >>>>>>>>> Wikimedia
> >>>>>>>>> community. For the latter it is vital to make our message
> heard.We
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> aim to
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> share the sum of all knowledge and many people have not even heard
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> of
> >>>
> >>>> us.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Thank,
> >>>>>>>>>         GerardM
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On 18 October 2016 at 16:00, Pax Ahimsa Gethen <
> >>>>>>>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Gerard, this isn't about "holiday destinations", it's about human
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> rights
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> and dignity. That's why I emphasized in my original post that I'm
> >>>>>>>>>> concerned
> >>>>>>>>>> not only about the safety of conference attendees, but also
> about
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> those
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> living in the host country. The choice of a venue in a location
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> with
> >>>
> >>>> a
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> poor
> >>>>>>>>>> human rights record reflects poorly upon Wikipedia/Wikimedia and
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> our
> >>>
> >>>> mission to share knowledge. There's a reason a number of major
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> companies
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> pulled their events and funding out of North Carolina after the
> >>>>>>>>>> restrictive
> >>>>>>>>>> restroom laws were passed for example...
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> - Pax
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> On 10/18/16 6:26 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Hoi,
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> For me safety is to a large extend secondary to what we aim to
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> achieve.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Our
> >>>>>>>>>>> primary goal is to improve on our primary goal and it is
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> "sharing in
> >>>
> >>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>> sum of all knowledge". It is not for going to the perfect
> holiday
> >>>>>>>>>>> destination.
> >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>>>>>>         GerardM
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> On 18 October 2016 at 13:56, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Gerard, could you provide some tangible examples of how other
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> safety
> >>>
> >>>> aspects of Wikimania would be compromised if there is any
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> specific
> >>>
> >>>> attention paid to the safety of LGBT+ Wikimedians? I cannot
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> imagine
> >>>
> >>>> how such a thing could be true.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Based on my reading, nobody in this thread has asked for the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> safety of
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> LGBT+ attendees to be "prioritized" over other safety aspects.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Please
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> don't make it appear as if they have.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Fae
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 18 October 2016 at 11:42, Gerard Meijssen <
> >>>>>>>>>>>> [hidden email]
> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hoi,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I do care that everybody can come to places where they are
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> safe.
> >>>
> >>>> All
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> specific LGBT attention to safety is however on many levels
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> problematic
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> when we prioritise this over other safety aspects. The big
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> picture
> >>>
> >>>> for
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> me
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> is that we need to go to places where bringing Wikipedia and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> what
> >>>
> >>>> it
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> stands
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> for the most good. It is why I would go to Russia, to China to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> India
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> South Africa.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> > --
> > Pax Ahimsa Gethen | http://funcrunch.org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
> > i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
>
>
>
> --
> GN.
> President Wikimedia Australia
> WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
> Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
> _______________________________________________
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> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] LGBT+ safety considerations for conference venues

Natacha Rault
In reply to this post by Gerard Meijssen-3
Dear All,

Making sure that safety requirements are met sure is important, and in view of the previous discussions there is a balance to find between opening to new geographic communities and securing our own community.
I would like to point out somerhing more: concerning the gender gap, many women I came to know last year are not able to attend such events for the following reason:

- no children / teenager activities proposed from the beginning to people outside the organizing team
- no baby sitting fees reimbursed for parents attending
- no reduction or scholarships for single parents (wether LGBT man or woman alltogether)
- the cost if moving a whole family (plane and train ticket) is not adressed for family members
- late answers to such questions  make it impossible to organize (one does need to think ahead to organize a childcare at home or elsewhere)

I think these issues are also important and need to be discussed if we want to reduce the gender gap.

Kind regards

Nattes à chat

> Le 9 nov. 2016 à 17:43, Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>
> Hoi,
> What is the point. When not even the USA is "safe", we have to be
> realistic. Wikimania is about propaganda for what we do. We have to travel
> and selecting a place is not about you, it is about them. It is about the
> people we aim to serve.
>
> I made my point before, it did not get any attention then and my argument
> now is that nothing changed. It is only the perception of the USA that has
> been dented by an unfortunate "democratic" choice by last night's election.
> Thanks,
>     GerardM
>
> On 9 November 2016 at 17:27, Pax Ahimsa Gethen <[hidden email]
>> wrote:
>
>> Gerard, as a queer black trans person who feels unsafe even in San
>> Francisco (and has felt that way for years), I would really appreciate you
>> not pushing last night's election results in my face to make a point.
>>
>> - Pax
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 11/9/16 8:24 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>>>
>>> Hoi,
>>> Do you blame me for not feeling safe going to the USA?
>>> Thanks,
>>>     GerardM
>>>
>>> On 8 November 2016 at 11:08, Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hoi,
>>>> Not going to North Corolina is absolutely fine with me. We do not gain
>>>> anything by going there arguably not to any state in the United States.
>>>> What Wikimania is, is a platform for propaganda for what we have, what we
>>>> do, who we are and how we do what we do. In many countries Wikipedia is
>>>> not
>>>> the house hold name it is in the USA.
>>>>
>>>> Wikimania is not aimed for the English Wikipedia, it is aimed to further
>>>> our movement. Not going to places is similar to saying that those other
>>>> people, speaking other languages, with an other culture do not matter.
>>>> They
>>>> do.
>>>>
>>>> We should go to Russia, India, South Africa, China. The people of those
>>>> countries should matter to us, the people we could share the sum of all
>>>> knowledge with.
>>>>
>>>> THAT is what we do, sharing the sum of all knowledge.
>>>>
>>>> When the choice of the venue is only about being safe, we should not go
>>>> to
>>>> the USA (I do not feel safe there), we should go to Germany, to
>>>> Switzerland
>>>> and move the office as well. It is not likely to happen, not what I want
>>>> either.
>>>>
>>>> If there is one thing about LBGT, it is that that struggle is still being
>>>> fought. Hiding and keeping away does not work. It does not help the LBGT
>>>> community. More importantly in this context it does not help the
>>>> Wikimedia
>>>> community. For the latter it is vital to make our message heard.We aim to
>>>> share the sum of all knowledge and many people have not even heard of us.
>>>> Thank,
>>>>      GerardM
>>>>
>>>> On 18 October 2016 at 16:00, Pax Ahimsa Gethen <
>>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Gerard, this isn't about "holiday destinations", it's about human rights
>>>>> and dignity. That's why I emphasized in my original post that I'm
>>>>> concerned
>>>>> not only about the safety of conference attendees, but also about those
>>>>> living in the host country. The choice of a venue in a location with a
>>>>> poor
>>>>> human rights record reflects poorly upon Wikipedia/Wikimedia and our
>>>>> mission to share knowledge. There's a reason a number of major companies
>>>>> pulled their events and funding out of North Carolina after the
>>>>> restrictive
>>>>> restroom laws were passed for example...
>>>>>
>>>>> - Pax
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10/18/16 6:26 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hoi,
>>>>>> For me safety is to a large extend secondary to what we aim to achieve.
>>>>>> Our
>>>>>> primary goal is to improve on our primary goal and it is "sharing in
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> sum of all knowledge". It is not for going to the perfect holiday
>>>>>> destination.
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>      GerardM
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 18 October 2016 at 13:56, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gerard, could you provide some tangible examples of how other safety
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> aspects of Wikimania would be compromised if there is any specific
>>>>>>> attention paid to the safety of LGBT+ Wikimedians? I cannot imagine
>>>>>>> how such a thing could be true.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Based on my reading, nobody in this thread has asked for the safety of
>>>>>>> LGBT+ attendees to be "prioritized" over other safety aspects. Please
>>>>>>> don't make it appear as if they have.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>> Fae
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 18 October 2016 at 11:42, Gerard Meijssen <
>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hoi,
>>>>>>>> I do care that everybody can come to places where they are safe. All
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> specific LGBT attention to safety is however on many levels
>>>>>>>> problematic
>>>>>>>> when we prioritise this over other safety aspects. The big picture
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>> is that we need to go to places where bringing Wikipedia and what it
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> stands
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> for the most good. It is why I would go to Russia, to China to India
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> South Africa.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>> --
>> Pax Ahimsa Gethen | http://funcrunch.org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
>> i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>> New messages to: [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] LGBT+ safety considerations for conference venues

Gerard Meijssen-3
In reply to this post by Gregory Varnum-2
Hoi,
Right. I agree. It is vital for us to have a safe space where we have our
conference. When we assess a place we should indeed do a risk assessment.
This risk assessment is for all of us. It means that we have to be safe to
do our thing at the conference, we have to be safe at our digs, we have to
be safe to party when we go (together) out and party and obviously we have
to go travel safely to and from the air port.

Every country knows about conferences and it is reasonable to talk with
them before the conference is held. Countries do want conferences and
typically it is possible to find a framework where everybody attending can
safely do what is part of a conference program.

Greg, LGBT gets a lot of attention and I have no problem with that; it has
been a considerable move forward. As you say, they are not the only group
who are stigmatised. They are not the only group that have to consider
their behaviour when they travel, when they live where they live. USA is in
turmoil. But it is for the USA to allow for it to be what it is. Mr Clinton
was almost impeached because of Mrs Lewinsky.. Mr Trump is far more likely
to get off the rails given his history. The point of the USA is that it has
to be assessed in the same way as all other countries and to be honest,
many people feel extremely anxious going there. That is not a reason not to
go, but it is vital that the USA is treated no different from other
countries. It is vital that everyone understands that when he is a guest in
a country, he has to appreciate where he is. Be advised that according to
Amnesty International no police force in the USA abides by the
international agreed rules the USA signed up for. There are known police
forces that are violently different from those agreements.

The point is, we should not let fear guide us, we should be prudent in all
risk assessments and indeed everyone should be able to attend. In the past
we have been to countries where this has not been the case. So take that as
a precedent. We need to come together but it is not only about LGBT it is
also about LGBT.
Thanks,
      GerardM

On 11 November 2016 at 04:10, Gregory Varnum <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Greetings,
>
> I wanted to take off my Wikimedia Foundation hat for a moment and offer
> some thoughts as a fellow volunteer.
>
> Without feeling physically/emotionally/mentally safe and free from
> prosecutorial persecution, it is nearly impossible to actively engage.
> Therefore, no goals can be achieved if creating a safe space is not a
> consideration.
>
> I mention prosecutorial persecution because the discussion thus far seems
> to have focused on citizen based peer violence. The problem is that for
> many communities, in this case the LGBT community, there are many other
> elements involved as well. Holding Wikimania in a country where simply
> being LGBT is a crime presents more than just a physical safety risk, it
> presents the threat of prison or death sentence. There are additional risks
> that LGBT people would take by being in that country even if we were
> absolutely confident the police were going to stay away. For example, if a
> LGBT person travels to a country where it is illegal, against the advice of
> their government, their health insurance may not be willing to help them
> should something happen (even if what happens has nothing to do with the
> laws criminalizing LGBT people). Again, these risks and situations apply to
> other communities as well, I am simply using this as an example.
>
> Also, having engaged in conversations like this professionally for over a
> decade, I want to encourage us to avoid ranking or comparing people's
> experiences. The reality is that when you are the victim of discrimination,
> harassment, or violence, that someone else may have had it worse than you
> is not an especially helpful or even relevant factor. Additionally, it
> cannot really be proven (facts matter), and more importantly here - does
> not encourage productive dialogue.
>
> I believe this is an important discussion to be having, and I am pleased to
> see people engaging in it. However, I think it is important that we
> accurately convey the scope of the topic, and avoid emotional triggers that
> will derail dialogue. Given the emotional level for many, especially in the
> US, following the election - I would also encourage people to consider
> pausing and allowing things to calm down before re-engaging.
>
> -greg (User:Varnent)
>
> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 6:41 PM Gnangarra <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > "Foreigners" are at an increased risk regardless of where they travel
> thats
> > the reality of international travel, additionally each persons individual
> > circumstances will affect those risks.  What we shouldnt be doing is
> > engaging in a contest as to whos circumstances gives them the greater
> risk
> > and thus a greater value as a contributor.  Sitting at a keyboard
> improving
> > content we are all equals everyone is important.
> >
> >
> >
> > On 10 November 2016 at 23:40, Pax Ahimsa Gethen <
> > [hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > It is correct I have yet to attend a Wikimania conference, but was
> > > planning to after my positive experience presenting at WikiConference
> > North
> > > America.
> > >
> > > Please note the "Muslim" and "LGBT" are not mutually exclusive. Same
> with
> > > any other marginalized groups you might name.
> > >
> > > FYI my preferred pronoun is "they" not "he".
> > >
> > > To clarify what it is I actually asked, here is a copy of my original
> > post:
> > >
> > > Hello all. I had a positive experience at WikiConference North America
> > >> last weekend, where I gave a talk on transgender issues and
> > Wikipedia.[1]
> > >> I'm posting because there's an active discussion in Wikipedia Weekly
> on
> > >> Facebook about choosing a host country for Wikimania 2018.[2] I am
> > >> concerned that some of the suggestions are not taking into account the
> > >> safety of LGBT+ people; not just those attending the conference, but
> > also
> > >> those living in the host country.
> > >>
> > >> As a queer trans atheist in a same-sex marriage, there are a number of
> > >> places where I am considered a criminal for just existing or going
> > about my
> > >> daily routine. This applies to some parts of the U.S. as well, by the
> > way;
> > >> I won't be visiting North Carolina as long as it's illegal for me to
> use
> > >> the men's restroom there. Please keep these considerations in mind
> when
> > >> planning meetups and conferences. Thank you.
> > >>
> > >> - Pax aka Funcrunch
> > >>
> > >> [1] http://funcrunch.org/blog/2016/10/12/making-connections-at-
> > >> wikiconference-north-america/
> > >>
> > >> [2] https://www.facebook.com/groups/wikipediaweekly/permalink/
> > >> 1114259788621851/
> > >>
> > >
> > > - Pax
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 11/10/16 12:00 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
> > >
> > >> Hoi,
> > >> You do not get it. Wikimania is first and foremost about spreading the
> > >> word
> > >> about what we do and who we are.
> > >>
> > >> I have read Pax's original post. He did not go to Wikimania. He asks
> for
> > >> consideration that any Wikimania will be in a place where he feels
> safe.
> > >> It
> > >> is OK for him to ask this but it is not OK for us to give away what
> > >> Wikimania stands for.
> > >>
> > >> There is no safe place and in my experience you are offensive by not
> > >> accepting that this is the point that I make. There is no perfect
> place
> > >> for
> > >> Wikimania. Everywhere and always you have to behave yourself cognisant
> > of
> > >> where you are. At all times there is one or the other group that will
> be
> > >> discriminated against.
> > >>
> > >> Fae, muslims are at a greater risk than LGBT people when they come to
> a
> > >> conference. Particularly women who wear a hijab will always be seen
> for
> > >> what they are. It is not a lie that you do not address the point that
> I
> > >> make. The question is why do we have a Wikimania and is it an
> instrument
> > >> to
> > >> open up new communities and include them in our movement.
> > >>
> > >> This is the dominant question that should be answered. Relative safety
> > is
> > >> secondary.
> > >> Thanks,
> > >>         GerardM
> > >>
> > >> On 10 November 2016 at 08:46, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Gerard,
> > >>>
> > >>> Yes you are being offensive. You are deliberately painting a picture
> > >>> that somehow Pax, myself and others are attempting to make out that
> > >>> safety of LGBT+ Wikimedians is more important than safety of Women
> > >>> Wikimedians or the safety of Muslim Wikimedians. The only person
> doing
> > >>> that is you.
> > >>>
> > >>> You did the same thing on the 18th of October and it was pointed out
> > >>> to you that this was unacceptable, yet you are continuing to repeat
> > >>> it. Stop doing it, it is a lie, and the only person spreading it is
> > you.
> > >>>
> > >>> Go back and read Pax's original post of 16th October which was
> positive
> > >>> about the Wikimania experience.
> > >>>
> > >>> Fae
> > >>>
> > >>> On 10 November 2016 at 06:57, Gerard Meijssen <
> > [hidden email]
> > >>> >
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> Hoi,
> > >>>> The notion of offence is one where you take it where there is none
> > >>>> certainly no offence is intended.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> When you consider Wikimanias past, we have been to places where
> there
> > is
> > >>>>
> > >>> a
> > >>>
> > >>>> "risk". Arguably there has been a risk in going to other countries
> in
> > >>>> the
> > >>>> past. When you consider the events themselves, as a group, we have
> > been
> > >>>> rather isolated in our conference. Many people were exhausted of the
> > >>>> proceedings. Others went partying and came to the conference when
> they
> > >>>>
> > >>> felt
> > >>>
> > >>>> up to it.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> This whole notion of security has been high jacked by LGBT concerns.
> > Let
> > >>>>
> > >>> me
> > >>>
> > >>>> say that they are real. It would however be a travesty to say that
> > they
> > >>>>
> > >>> are
> > >>>
> > >>>> the only ones singled out for problems. Ask yourself, how many women
> > >>>> wearing a veil were there at the last Wikimania and at the one
> before.
> > >>>> Consider the stories about people, third generation Dutch, who are
> > >>>>
> > >>> mistaken
> > >>>
> > >>>> for refugees and not safe in the streets of the place where I live.
> > >>>>
> > >>> Stories
> > >>>
> > >>>> about not standing close to the gap at a railway station because ...
> > >>>> They
> > >>>> are as much a reality, they are as real.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> So you may find it offensive and it is. People are not safe. But
> when
> > >>>>
> > >>> that
> > >>>
> > >>>> stops us from talking about it, when it can not be said that
> security
> > is
> > >>>> only one concern and not the most dominant one then I take offence.
> It
> > >>>> means that we can no longer exchange opinions. It means that we are
> > only
> > >>>> concerned with our own narrow interest losing the big picture.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> So Fae, take it from me. You are wrong to call me out for being
> > >>>> disrespectful. By calling me out in this way you elevate your
> opinion
> > >>>> and
> > >>>> put me down. Security is a concern but when fear is exchanged for
> > >>>>
> > >>> prudence,
> > >>>
> > >>>> we will remove the one reason why we have Wikimania in the first
> place
> > >>>>
> > >>> as a
> > >>>
> > >>>> worldwide conference. It is to go out and show the world who we are
> > and
> > >>>> what we have to offer.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> When this is the prevailing opinion of our movement it does hardly
> > >>>> matter
> > >>>> that we have Wikipedias in over 280 languages because English and
> its
> > >>>> culture is the only Wikipedia that counts. Now that is effectively
> an
> > >>>> existing prejudice that is dominated in much of what I observe we
> do.
> > It
> > >>>>
> > >>> is
> > >>>
> > >>>> another argument people feel offended. But hey most of you do not
> see
> > it
> > >>>> this way because "things trickle down".. As an economic measure it
> > >>>> failed
> > >>>> and it is how we ignore the major cultural differences that exist.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Wikimania is not relevant when we do not go out and mingle world
> wide.
> > >>>>
> > >>> When
> > >>>
> > >>>> we do not accept the differences that exist and make it our
> strength.
> > >>>> Thanks,
> > >>>>        GerardM
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On 9 November 2016 at 18:28, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Gerard,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> You have posted several emails on the subject which read as
> > >>>>> disrespectful, can cause offence and discourage LGBT+ contributors
> to
> > >>>>> this list who may have otherwise openly expressed views. The line
> of
> > >>>>> argument that LGBT+ Wikimedians must expect to be at personal risk
> > >>>>> just to attend a Wikimania is repugnant to me, and is likely to be
> > for
> > >>>>> a majority of other readers. This point of view runs counter to the
> > >>>>> values of the WMF or recognized affiliates.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> If you wish to develop a better understanding of how the basic
> safety
> > >>>>> of all attendees at future Wikimanias and other conferences should
> be
> > >>>>> a priority, this may be better done on-wiki rather than repeating
> > your
> > >>>>> points on this list.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I warmly recommend a reality check with friends off-list as to what
> > >>>>> might be read as offensive, should you wish to continue posting
> > >>>>> further emails about this particular topic.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Thanks,
> > >>>>> Fae
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> On 9 November 2016 at 16:43, Gerard Meijssen <
> > >>>>> [hidden email]
> > >>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> Hoi,
> > >>>>>> What is the point. When not even the USA is "safe", we have to be
> > >>>>>> realistic. Wikimania is about propaganda for what we do. We have
> to
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>> travel
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> and selecting a place is not about you, it is about them. It is
> > about
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>> the
> > >>>
> > >>>> people we aim to serve.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> I made my point before, it did not get any attention then and my
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>> argument
> > >>>
> > >>>> now is that nothing changed. It is only the perception of the USA
> that
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>> has
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> been dented by an unfortunate "democratic" choice by last night's
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>> election.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> Thanks,
> > >>>>>>        GerardM
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> On 9 November 2016 at 17:27, Pax Ahimsa Gethen <
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>> [hidden email]
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>> Gerard, as a queer black trans person who feels unsafe even in
> San
> > >>>>>>> Francisco (and has felt that way for years), I would really
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>> appreciate
> > >>>
> > >>>> you
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> not pushing last night's election results in my face to make a
> > point.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> - Pax
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> On 11/9/16 8:24 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Hoi,
> > >>>>>>>> Do you blame me for not feeling safe going to the USA?
> > >>>>>>>> Thanks,
> > >>>>>>>>        GerardM
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> On 8 November 2016 at 11:08, Gerard Meijssen <
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> [hidden email]>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Hoi,
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> Not going to North Corolina is absolutely fine with me. We do
> not
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> gain
> > >>>
> > >>>> anything by going there arguably not to any state in the United
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> States.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> What Wikimania is, is a platform for propaganda for what we have,
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> what we
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> do, who we are and how we do what we do. In many countries
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Wikipedia
> > >>>
> > >>>> is
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> not
> > >>>>>>>>> the house hold name it is in the USA.
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> Wikimania is not aimed for the English Wikipedia, it is aimed
> to
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> further
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> our movement. Not going to places is similar to saying that those
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> other
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> people, speaking other languages, with an other culture do not
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> matter.
> > >>>
> > >>>> They
> > >>>>>>>>> do.
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> We should go to Russia, India, South Africa, China. The people
> of
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> those
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> countries should matter to us, the people we could share the sum
> of
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> all
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> knowledge with.
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> THAT is what we do, sharing the sum of all knowledge.
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> When the choice of the venue is only about being safe, we
> should
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> not
> > >>>
> > >>>> go
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> to
> > >>>>>>>>> the USA (I do not feel safe there), we should go to Germany, to
> > >>>>>>>>> Switzerland
> > >>>>>>>>> and move the office as well. It is not likely to happen, not
> > what I
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> want
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> either.
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> If there is one thing about LBGT, it is that that struggle is
> > still
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> being
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> fought. Hiding and keeping away does not work. It does not help
> the
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> LBGT
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> community. More importantly in this context it does not help the
> > >>>>>>>>> Wikimedia
> > >>>>>>>>> community. For the latter it is vital to make our message
> > heard.We
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> aim to
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> share the sum of all knowledge and many people have not even heard
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> of
> > >>>
> > >>>> us.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> Thank,
> > >>>>>>>>>         GerardM
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> On 18 October 2016 at 16:00, Pax Ahimsa Gethen <
> > >>>>>>>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> Gerard, this isn't about "holiday destinations", it's about
> human
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> rights
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> and dignity. That's why I emphasized in my original post that I'm
> > >>>>>>>>>> concerned
> > >>>>>>>>>> not only about the safety of conference attendees, but also
> > about
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> those
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> living in the host country. The choice of a venue in a location
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> with
> > >>>
> > >>>> a
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> poor
> > >>>>>>>>>> human rights record reflects poorly upon Wikipedia/Wikimedia
> and
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> our
> > >>>
> > >>>> mission to share knowledge. There's a reason a number of major
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> companies
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> pulled their events and funding out of North Carolina after the
> > >>>>>>>>>> restrictive
> > >>>>>>>>>> restroom laws were passed for example...
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> - Pax
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> On 10/18/16 6:26 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> Hoi,
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> For me safety is to a large extend secondary to what we aim
> to
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> achieve.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> Our
> > >>>>>>>>>>> primary goal is to improve on our primary goal and it is
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> "sharing in
> > >>>
> > >>>> the
> > >>>>>>>>>>> sum of all knowledge". It is not for going to the perfect
> > holiday
> > >>>>>>>>>>> destination.
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
> > >>>>>>>>>>>         GerardM
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> On 18 October 2016 at 13:56, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Gerard, could you provide some tangible examples of how other
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> safety
> > >>>
> > >>>> aspects of Wikimania would be compromised if there is any
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> specific
> > >>>
> > >>>> attention paid to the safety of LGBT+ Wikimedians? I cannot
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> imagine
> > >>>
> > >>>> how such a thing could be true.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Based on my reading, nobody in this thread has asked for the
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> safety of
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> LGBT+ attendees to be "prioritized" over other safety aspects.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Please
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> don't make it appear as if they have.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Fae
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> On 18 October 2016 at 11:42, Gerard Meijssen <
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> [hidden email]
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Hoi,
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> I do care that everybody can come to places where they are
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> safe.
> > >>>
> > >>>> All
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> the
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> specific LGBT attention to safety is however on many levels
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> problematic
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> when we prioritise this over other safety aspects. The big
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> picture
> > >>>
> > >>>> for
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> me
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> is that we need to go to places where bringing Wikipedia
> and
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> what
> > >>>
> > >>>> it
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> stands
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> for the most good. It is why I would go to Russia, to China
> to
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> India
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> to
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> South Africa.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> --
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/User:Fae
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > --
> > > Pax Ahimsa Gethen | http://funcrunch.org
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
> > > i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
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> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > GN.
> > President Wikimedia Australia
> > WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
> > Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
> > _______________________________________________
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