[Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

Fæ
On 7 April 2017 at 06:39, Anders Wennersten <[hidden email]> wrote:
...
> So when it comes to how we use them in documents related to WIkipedia, is to
> not use any of them. It is a little bit more complicated but it is quite
> possible. "The person who takes a photo should" etc
>
> And our standpoint is that we as Wikipedians should not be first in
> introducing new use of language but wait until it has become mainstream (if
> it ever will be)
>
> Anders

Thanks for the 'hen' example. The new policy on Wikimedia Commons[1]
for gender neutral language has precisely the Swedish Wikipedia
working solution as the best solution, i.e. to avoid unnecessary
gendered pronouns where /reasonable/. For policies in English at
least, that actually turns out to be almost all the time.

It sounds like capturing what you currently do, can easily become your
local gender neutral policy. It may not be perfect, but it would be a
focus for discussion and by having these visible steps to attempt to
address the issue, those most affected will feel acknowledged rather
than dismissed.

Many of us have been contributing to the Wikimedia Foundation's
strategy consultation, thinking of what our projects might become in
15 years. When you look that far ahead, it seems possible to plan for
these changes happening, including seeing a few "leftist/feminist"
possibilities like the Swedish 'hen' becoming mainstream.

When I was a teenager, the word "gay" for a homosexual went from a gay
community word to mainstream on the television, something I remember
my Mother being critical about, "it used to be such a nice happy word
before this", not a good environment to come out as gay! A decade
later the more acceptable and correct word "transgender" gradually
replaced our usage of "transexual" and right now "genderqueer" is
becoming a popular word to apply, it's even on Wikidata :-). However,
in a more connected world, neologisms appear and become accepted
faster, and 15 years feels like a long view for these changes.

Seeing /some/ of our mainstream projects taking action to adopt gender
neutral terms, even if only at policy level, will encourage other
websites to do the same. Rather than a political act, I see continuing
to talk about it, and not giving up on trying to adapt and improve our
approach where reasonable to do so, simply a way of striving to our
goal of feeling like a welcome environment for everyone to read and
everyone to edit. I cannot accept the status quo where some minorities
feel excluded by our systems and policies, but I don't have to, as we
are not standing still. :-)

Links:
1. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Use_of_gender_neutral_language

Thanks
Fae

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

John Erling Blad
The focus should not be what some users want to call other users, but on
what users want to call themselves.

" I cannot accept the status quo where some minorities
feel excluded by our systems and policies, but I don't have to, as we
are not standing still."

Then I think you should reconsider. Users will leave if you start messing
with how they address other users.

On Fri, Apr 7, 2017 at 9:17 AM, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 7 April 2017 at 06:39, Anders Wennersten <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> ...
> > So when it comes to how we use them in documents related to WIkipedia,
> is to
> > not use any of them. It is a little bit more complicated but it is quite
> > possible. "The person who takes a photo should" etc
> >
> > And our standpoint is that we as Wikipedians should not be first in
> > introducing new use of language but wait until it has become mainstream
> (if
> > it ever will be)
> >
> > Anders
>
> Thanks for the 'hen' example. The new policy on Wikimedia Commons[1]
> for gender neutral language has precisely the Swedish Wikipedia
> working solution as the best solution, i.e. to avoid unnecessary
> gendered pronouns where /reasonable/. For policies in English at
> least, that actually turns out to be almost all the time.
>
> It sounds like capturing what you currently do, can easily become your
> local gender neutral policy. It may not be perfect, but it would be a
> focus for discussion and by having these visible steps to attempt to
> address the issue, those most affected will feel acknowledged rather
> than dismissed.
>
> Many of us have been contributing to the Wikimedia Foundation's
> strategy consultation, thinking of what our projects might become in
> 15 years. When you look that far ahead, it seems possible to plan for
> these changes happening, including seeing a few "leftist/feminist"
> possibilities like the Swedish 'hen' becoming mainstream.
>
> When I was a teenager, the word "gay" for a homosexual went from a gay
> community word to mainstream on the television, something I remember
> my Mother being critical about, "it used to be such a nice happy word
> before this", not a good environment to come out as gay! A decade
> later the more acceptable and correct word "transgender" gradually
> replaced our usage of "transexual" and right now "genderqueer" is
> becoming a popular word to apply, it's even on Wikidata :-). However,
> in a more connected world, neologisms appear and become accepted
> faster, and 15 years feels like a long view for these changes.
>
> Seeing /some/ of our mainstream projects taking action to adopt gender
> neutral terms, even if only at policy level, will encourage other
> websites to do the same. Rather than a political act, I see continuing
> to talk about it, and not giving up on trying to adapt and improve our
> approach where reasonable to do so, simply a way of striving to our
> goal of feeling like a welcome environment for everyone to read and
> everyone to edit. I cannot accept the status quo where some minorities
> feel excluded by our systems and policies, but I don't have to, as we
> are not standing still. :-)
>
> Links:
> 1. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Use_of_gender_
> neutral_language
>
> Thanks
> Fae
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

Fæ
Hi John,

Thanks for highlighting this point. The gender neutral policies we are
putting in place simply ensure that our policy, guidelines and help
pages use gender neutral language where reasonable to do so. These
policies do not apply to what our users write on discussion pages when
referring to themselves. So, nobody is intending to start messing with
how users address other users... within the limits of our civility
policies of course! :-)

A point raised earlier is that it would be great for us to start
thinking about whether the MediaWiki software should be improved to
allow users to define their preferred pronoun, so when our systems
leave automated messages, they are written to the user's preference,
including non-binary terms (like 'hen' in Swedish) rather than
"unspecified". This has been discussed, see
https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T29744 as an example, but would
probably need a larger community consensus, in fact a local consensus
in each language, to move forward.

Thanks,
Fae
Wikimedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT

On 7 April 2017 at 10:27, John Erling Blad <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The focus should not be what some users want to call other users, but on
> what users want to call themselves.
>
> " I cannot accept the status quo where some minorities
> feel excluded by our systems and policies, but I don't have to, as we
> are not standing still."
>
> Then I think you should reconsider. Users will leave if you start messing
> with how they address other users.
>
> On Fri, Apr 7, 2017 at 9:17 AM, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On 7 April 2017 at 06:39, Anders Wennersten <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>> ...
>> > So when it comes to how we use them in documents related to WIkipedia,
>> is to
>> > not use any of them. It is a little bit more complicated but it is quite
>> > possible. "The person who takes a photo should" etc
>> >
>> > And our standpoint is that we as Wikipedians should not be first in
>> > introducing new use of language but wait until it has become mainstream
>> (if
>> > it ever will be)
>> >
>> > Anders
>>
>> Thanks for the 'hen' example. The new policy on Wikimedia Commons[1]
>> for gender neutral language has precisely the Swedish Wikipedia
>> working solution as the best solution, i.e. to avoid unnecessary
>> gendered pronouns where /reasonable/. For policies in English at
>> least, that actually turns out to be almost all the time.
>>
>> It sounds like capturing what you currently do, can easily become your
>> local gender neutral policy. It may not be perfect, but it would be a
>> focus for discussion and by having these visible steps to attempt to
>> address the issue, those most affected will feel acknowledged rather
>> than dismissed.
>>
>> Many of us have been contributing to the Wikimedia Foundation's
>> strategy consultation, thinking of what our projects might become in
>> 15 years. When you look that far ahead, it seems possible to plan for
>> these changes happening, including seeing a few "leftist/feminist"
>> possibilities like the Swedish 'hen' becoming mainstream.
>>
>> When I was a teenager, the word "gay" for a homosexual went from a gay
>> community word to mainstream on the television, something I remember
>> my Mother being critical about, "it used to be such a nice happy word
>> before this", not a good environment to come out as gay! A decade
>> later the more acceptable and correct word "transgender" gradually
>> replaced our usage of "transexual" and right now "genderqueer" is
>> becoming a popular word to apply, it's even on Wikidata :-). However,
>> in a more connected world, neologisms appear and become accepted
>> faster, and 15 years feels like a long view for these changes.
>>
>> Seeing /some/ of our mainstream projects taking action to adopt gender
>> neutral terms, even if only at policy level, will encourage other
>> websites to do the same. Rather than a political act, I see continuing
>> to talk about it, and not giving up on trying to adapt and improve our
>> approach where reasonable to do so, simply a way of striving to our
>> goal of feeling like a welcome environment for everyone to read and
>> everyone to edit. I cannot accept the status quo where some minorities
>> feel excluded by our systems and policies, but I don't have to, as we
>> are not standing still. :-)
>>
>> Links:
>> 1. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Use_of_gender_
>> neutral_language
>>
>> Thanks
>> Fae
--
[hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

Florence Devouard-3
In reply to this post by Fæ
A couple of weeks ago, I was asked - in my capacity of meta admin - to
change the phrasing of a site notice on meta, meant to call for
participation to the month of Francophonie.

https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Centralnotice-template-WikiFranca_MC17&diff=prev&oldid=16482259

The sentence of the call in the site notice was in language neutral
terminology.

"les Wikimédien.nes" instead of the more traditionnal but non neutral
"les Wikimédiens".

That phrasing raised an uproar on the French pump. So I replaced the
term by "nous" (we). Seems to settle things.

Clearly the French speaking community is not ready to adopt the gender
neutral specific language accross the francophones projects.
Alternatives (such as the "we") are possible but not always.

Florence



Le 06/04/2017 14:58, Fæ a écrit :

> Thanks for the examples from French and I'm sure that our experienced
> translators will have in mind specific best practice guides to turn
> to. I like your illustration of "un/une adminstra-teur-trice" to show
> the challenges. The use of "singular they" remains uncomfortable for
> many English readers, but it has become a recommended standard for
> journalists writing in English.[1]
>
> Once the principle of gender neutrality is agreed, I just don't know
> what our next steps will turn out to be for non-English versions.
> However I am much encouraged by the positive views on Commons, and I'm
> hopeful we can, and should, find a way to set a better example for our
> fellow projects in our aim to feel welcoming for all contributors. :-)
>
> Links
> 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they
>
> Thanks
> Fae
> Wikimedia LGBT+
>
> On 6 April 2017 at 12:30, Antoine Musso <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Le 05/04/2017 à 12:52, Fæ a écrit :
>>>   I'm taking that further by
>>> proposing that we stick to a neutral gender for all our policies and
>>> help pages. In practice this means that policies avoid using "he or
>>> she" and stick to "they" or avoid using a pronoun at all.
>>
>> As a non native English speaker the use of a plural form definitely
>> confuses me or at best.  The example takes a sentence from Commons:FAQ
>> which roughly looks like:
>>
>> A photographer has to be given credit when his or her picture is used.
>>
>> With the proposal to instead:
>>
>> A photographer has to be given credit when their picture is used.
>>
>> Why isn't "picture" plural as well?  If using masculine as a neutral
>> pronoum is the issue, just stop using the pronoum entirely. Eg one can
>> instead write:
>>
>> A photographer has to be given credit when the picture is used.
>>
>>
>> That is going to be quite a challenge when ported to other languages.
>> For 'A photographer', the english indefinite article is gender less.
>>
>> In french that would be either 'un' (masculine) or 'une' (feminine).
>> What some are advocating is using:
>>
>>    Un/une photographe
>>
>> If the noun varies as well, that becomes messy. Here for 'administrateur':
>>
>>   Un/une adminstra-teur-trice
>>
>> That is not solvable in french and all other latin based languages most
>> probably have the same issue (blame Rome!).
>>
>>
>> --
>> Antoine "hashar" Musso
>



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

Fæ
In reply to this post by Fæ
An English Wikipedia gender neutral policy, similar to the one
developed for Commons, is now under "lively" discussion in a Requests
for Comment started this afternoon. You can read the proposed policy
and join in by adding your viewpoint at:
Shortcut: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/RFC_GNL
Full link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/RfC_to_adopt_a_default_gender_neutral_style_for_policy,_guidelines_and_help_pages

Some of the comments may be upsetting for some readers. I've actually
been a bit surprised. If it's too much drama for you, go focus on
something more fun.

Thanks,
Fae
Wikimedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT+

On 5 April 2017 at 11:44, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:

> * https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump#Defaulting_to_gender_neutral_language_in_the_Commons_namespace
>
> Hi,
>
> One of the outcomes from my weekend at the Wikimedia Conference in
> Berlin, was that the various discussions over /feeling/ more welcoming
> in our language presumptions for non-male contributors made me think
> about taking some practical steps on my home project. Commons is lucky
> that having a standard policy language of English makes it easier to
> use neutral gender in policy statements. I'm taking that further by
> proposing that we stick to a neutral gender for all our policies and
> help pages. In practice this means that policies avoid using "he or
> she" and stick to "they" or avoid using a pronoun at all. I'm hoping
> that the outcome will feel like a much more natural space for people
> like me that prefer to stay gender neutral, possibly give a slightly
> safer feeling to the project by the very act of making the effort, as
> well as avoiding an over-emphasis on binary gender when it's pretty
> easy to simply avoid it.
>
> Comments are welcome on the specific proposal, or you may have ideas
> for other local projects to do something similar. I'm aware that this
> is much more difficult to make progress on in languages such as German
> or Spanish that have a presumption of male/female gender within their
> vocabulary, so any cases of on-project initiatives in non-English
> would be especially interesting. Solving these challenges is an
> opportunity to make our projects a leader on gender neutrality...
--
[hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

Fæ
In reply to this post by Florence Devouard-3
Thanks for the French experience. :-) You may not have picked up on
the specific comment about the French Wikipedia a few days ago in the
general Wikimedia Commons Village Pump discussion:[1]

"* Total Support. This is not only useful to the trans community, but
in the case of French, it is more inclusive for women also, as the
French (I'm writing French and this does not mean francophone) have
the disastrous tendency to masculinize everything pretending this is
the way the french grammar addresses "gender neutrality in French". I
would really like us to reflect on writing a best practice manual for
all those who want to have an inclusive language (coupled with a non
violent communication guide for online practices). Actually on the
French wikipedia, most pronouns are in the masculine form even on talk
/ user / help pages, and when one raises the issue, one gets insults
and very silly remarks. --Nattes à chat"

It is sad to see that the local community has difficulty staying
respectful or even civil when these gender related discussions arise,
and should be a welcoming and open debate about the facts for modern
language usage. There are no easy solutions, apart from persisting,
keeping the topic on our agenda, and gradually educating where we can,
even though this gets very tiring for our best volunteers!

The French Wikipedia is not alone, and I have been told over the last
week of exactly the same problem of "silly comments" on the German
Wikipedia, and my experience with raising a Request for Comment
yesterday on the English Wikipedia[2] is that discussions on this do
include critical views being expressed, which is okay, in a
disrespectful way, which is definitely not okay! It's a shame that
even some administrators will defend intentionally disrespectful
comments as so-called "free speech", rather than a breach of our
civility policies or the basic WMF terms of use for our websites.[3]

P.S. Florence, your email gets automatically put in spam when using
Google's email system. I'm not even sure how to stop that happening
for yahoo addresses to this list.

Links
1. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump#Defaulting_to_gender_neutral_language_in_policies_and_help_pages
2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/RFC_GNL
3. https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use

Thanks,
Fae

On 7 April 2017 at 20:58, Florence Devouard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> A couple of weeks ago, I was asked - in my capacity of meta admin - to
> change the phrasing of a site notice on meta, meant to call for
> participation to the month of Francophonie.
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Centralnotice-template-WikiFranca_MC17&diff=prev&oldid=16482259
>
> The sentence of the call in the site notice was in language neutral
> terminology.
>
> "les Wikimédien.nes" instead of the more traditionnal but non neutral "les
> Wikimédiens".
>
> That phrasing raised an uproar on the French pump. So I replaced the term by
> "nous" (we). Seems to settle things.
>
> Clearly the French speaking community is not ready to adopt the gender
> neutral specific language accross the francophones projects. Alternatives
> (such as the "we") are possible but not always.
>
> Florence
>
>
>
> Le 06/04/2017 14:58, Fæ a écrit :
>>
>> Thanks for the examples from French and I'm sure that our experienced
>> translators will have in mind specific best practice guides to turn
>> to. I like your illustration of "un/une adminstra-teur-trice" to show
>> the challenges. The use of "singular they" remains uncomfortable for
>> many English readers, but it has become a recommended standard for
>> journalists writing in English.[1]
>>
>> Once the principle of gender neutrality is agreed, I just don't know
>> what our next steps will turn out to be for non-English versions.
>> However I am much encouraged by the positive views on Commons, and I'm
>> hopeful we can, and should, find a way to set a better example for our
>> fellow projects in our aim to feel welcoming for all contributors. :-)
>>
>> Links
>> 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they
>>
>> Thanks
>> Fae
>> Wikimedia LGBT+
>>
>> On 6 April 2017 at 12:30, Antoine Musso <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Le 05/04/2017 à 12:52, Fæ a écrit :
>>>>
>>>>   I'm taking that further by
>>>> proposing that we stick to a neutral gender for all our policies and
>>>> help pages. In practice this means that policies avoid using "he or
>>>> she" and stick to "they" or avoid using a pronoun at all.
>>>
>>>
>>> As a non native English speaker the use of a plural form definitely
>>> confuses me or at best.  The example takes a sentence from Commons:FAQ
>>> which roughly looks like:
>>>
>>> A photographer has to be given credit when his or her picture is used.
>>>
>>> With the proposal to instead:
>>>
>>> A photographer has to be given credit when their picture is used.
>>>
>>> Why isn't "picture" plural as well?  If using masculine as a neutral
>>> pronoum is the issue, just stop using the pronoum entirely. Eg one can
>>> instead write:
>>>
>>> A photographer has to be given credit when the picture is used.
>>>
>>>
>>> That is going to be quite a challenge when ported to other languages.
>>> For 'A photographer', the english indefinite article is gender less.
>>>
>>> In french that would be either 'un' (masculine) or 'une' (feminine).
>>> What some are advocating is using:
>>>
>>>    Un/une photographe
>>>
>>> If the noun varies as well, that becomes messy. Here for
>>> 'administrateur':
>>>
>>>   Un/une adminstra-teur-trice
>>>
>>> That is not solvable in french and all other latin based languages most
>>> probably have the same issue (blame Rome!).
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Antoine "hashar" Musso
>>
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>



--
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Personal and confidential, please do not circulate or re-quote.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

Gnangarra
I beg to differ with Anders final comment;

> ​
> And our standpoint is that we as Wikipedians should not be first in
> introducing new use of language but wait until it has become mainstream (if
> it ever will be)​


​I have no issue within our policies and projects being a leader the use of
neutral language ​that encompasses all equally because neutrality is one of
the key pillars of the community.  We can and must do better to ensure that
everyone has the ability to contribute on an equal basis.

If a language doesnt have a gender neutral way to express an individual
then we should be encouraging speakers to find alternative ways which can
best express our neutral position

On 8 April 2017 at 20:32, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thanks for the French experience. :-) You may not have picked up on
> the specific comment about the French Wikipedia a few days ago in the
> general Wikimedia Commons Village Pump discussion:[1]
>
> "* Total Support. This is not only useful to the trans community, but
> in the case of French, it is more inclusive for women also, as the
> French (I'm writing French and this does not mean francophone) have
> the disastrous tendency to masculinize everything pretending this is
> the way the french grammar addresses "gender neutrality in French". I
> would really like us to reflect on writing a best practice manual for
> all those who want to have an inclusive language (coupled with a non
> violent communication guide for online practices). Actually on the
> French wikipedia, most pronouns are in the masculine form even on talk
> / user / help pages, and when one raises the issue, one gets insults
> and very silly remarks. --Nattes à chat"
>
> It is sad to see that the local community has difficulty staying
> respectful or even civil when these gender related discussions arise,
> and should be a welcoming and open debate about the facts for modern
> language usage. There are no easy solutions, apart from persisting,
> keeping the topic on our agenda, and gradually educating where we can,
> even though this gets very tiring for our best volunteers!
>
> The French Wikipedia is not alone, and I have been told over the last
> week of exactly the same problem of "silly comments" on the German
> Wikipedia, and my experience with raising a Request for Comment
> yesterday on the English Wikipedia[2] is that discussions on this do
> include critical views being expressed, which is okay, in a
> disrespectful way, which is definitely not okay! It's a shame that
> even some administrators will defend intentionally disrespectful
> comments as so-called "free speech", rather than a breach of our
> civility policies or the basic WMF terms of use for our websites.[3]
>
> P.S. Florence, your email gets automatically put in spam when using
> Google's email system. I'm not even sure how to stop that happening
> for yahoo addresses to this list.
>
> Links
> 1. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump#
> Defaulting_to_gender_neutral_language_in_policies_and_help_pages
> 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/RFC_GNL
> 3. https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use
>
> Thanks,
> Fae
>
> On 7 April 2017 at 20:58, Florence Devouard <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > A couple of weeks ago, I was asked - in my capacity of meta admin - to
> > change the phrasing of a site notice on meta, meant to call for
> > participation to the month of Francophonie.
> >
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:
> Centralnotice-template-WikiFranca_MC17&diff=prev&oldid=16482259
> >
> > The sentence of the call in the site notice was in language neutral
> > terminology.
> >
> > "les Wikimédien.nes" instead of the more traditionnal but non neutral
> "les
> > Wikimédiens".
> >
> > That phrasing raised an uproar on the French pump. So I replaced the
> term by
> > "nous" (we). Seems to settle things.
> >
> > Clearly the French speaking community is not ready to adopt the gender
> > neutral specific language accross the francophones projects. Alternatives
> > (such as the "we") are possible but not always.
> >
> > Florence
> >
> >
> >
> > Le 06/04/2017 14:58, Fæ a écrit :
> >>
> >> Thanks for the examples from French and I'm sure that our experienced
> >> translators will have in mind specific best practice guides to turn
> >> to. I like your illustration of "un/une adminstra-teur-trice" to show
> >> the challenges. The use of "singular they" remains uncomfortable for
> >> many English readers, but it has become a recommended standard for
> >> journalists writing in English.[1]
> >>
> >> Once the principle of gender neutrality is agreed, I just don't know
> >> what our next steps will turn out to be for non-English versions.
> >> However I am much encouraged by the positive views on Commons, and I'm
> >> hopeful we can, and should, find a way to set a better example for our
> >> fellow projects in our aim to feel welcoming for all contributors. :-)
> >>
> >> Links
> >> 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they
> >>
> >> Thanks
> >> Fae
> >> Wikimedia LGBT+
> >>
> >> On 6 April 2017 at 12:30, Antoine Musso <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Le 05/04/2017 à 12:52, Fæ a écrit :
> >>>>
> >>>>   I'm taking that further by
> >>>> proposing that we stick to a neutral gender for all our policies and
> >>>> help pages. In practice this means that policies avoid using "he or
> >>>> she" and stick to "they" or avoid using a pronoun at all.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> As a non native English speaker the use of a plural form definitely
> >>> confuses me or at best.  The example takes a sentence from Commons:FAQ
> >>> which roughly looks like:
> >>>
> >>> A photographer has to be given credit when his or her picture is used.
> >>>
> >>> With the proposal to instead:
> >>>
> >>> A photographer has to be given credit when their picture is used.
> >>>
> >>> Why isn't "picture" plural as well?  If using masculine as a neutral
> >>> pronoum is the issue, just stop using the pronoum entirely. Eg one can
> >>> instead write:
> >>>
> >>> A photographer has to be given credit when the picture is used.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> That is going to be quite a challenge when ported to other languages.
> >>> For 'A photographer', the english indefinite article is gender less.
> >>>
> >>> In french that would be either 'un' (masculine) or 'une' (feminine).
> >>> What some are advocating is using:
> >>>
> >>>    Un/une photographe
> >>>
> >>> If the noun varies as well, that becomes messy. Here for
> >>> 'administrateur':
> >>>
> >>>   Un/une adminstra-teur-trice
> >>>
> >>> That is not solvable in french and all other latin based languages most
> >>> probably have the same issue (blame Rome!).
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Antoine "hashar" Musso
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
>
> --
> [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> Personal and confidential, please do not circulate or re-quote.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>



--
GN.
President Wikimedia Australia
WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

Fæ
I am delighted to say that Wikimedia Commons is today the /first/
project to have an official Gender-neutral language policy for its
policies and help pages, so that the project is a welcoming
environment for all. Thanks to everyone that took part in the
discussions and vote!

* https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Use_of_gender_neutral_language *

The proposal was an unplanned outcome from the WM-LGBT+ user group
taking part in this year's Wikimedia Conference in Berlin, part of all
the creative discussions that go on when so many international
Wikimedians get together.

If you missed it, the English Wikipedia has an ongoing 'lively'
Request for Comment for its own Gender-neutral policy for policies,
see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/RFC_GNL

Thanks
Fae
Wikmedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT+
https://telegram.me/wmlgbt

On 8 April 2017 at 14:04, Gnangarra <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I beg to differ with Anders final comment;
>
>>
>> And our standpoint is that we as Wikipedians should not be first in
>> introducing new use of language but wait until it has become mainstream (if
>> it ever will be)
>
>
> I have no issue within our policies and projects being a leader the use of
> neutral language that encompasses all equally because neutrality is one of
> the key pillars of the community.  We can and must do better to ensure that
> everyone has the ability to contribute on an equal basis.
>
> If a language doesnt have a gender neutral way to express an individual
> then we should be encouraging speakers to find alternative ways which can
> best express our neutral position
>
> On 8 April 2017 at 20:32, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the French experience. :-) You may not have picked up on
>> the specific comment about the French Wikipedia a few days ago in the
>> general Wikimedia Commons Village Pump discussion:[1]
>>
>> "* Total Support. This is not only useful to the trans community, but
>> in the case of French, it is more inclusive for women also, as the
>> French (I'm writing French and this does not mean francophone) have
>> the disastrous tendency to masculinize everything pretending this is
>> the way the french grammar addresses "gender neutrality in French". I
>> would really like us to reflect on writing a best practice manual for
>> all those who want to have an inclusive language (coupled with a non
>> violent communication guide for online practices). Actually on the
>> French wikipedia, most pronouns are in the masculine form even on talk
>> / user / help pages, and when one raises the issue, one gets insults
>> and very silly remarks. --Nattes à chat"
>>
>> It is sad to see that the local community has difficulty staying
>> respectful or even civil when these gender related discussions arise,
>> and should be a welcoming and open debate about the facts for modern
>> language usage. There are no easy solutions, apart from persisting,
>> keeping the topic on our agenda, and gradually educating where we can,
>> even though this gets very tiring for our best volunteers!
>>
>> The French Wikipedia is not alone, and I have been told over the last
>> week of exactly the same problem of "silly comments" on the German
>> Wikipedia, and my experience with raising a Request for Comment
>> yesterday on the English Wikipedia[2] is that discussions on this do
>> include critical views being expressed, which is okay, in a
>> disrespectful way, which is definitely not okay! It's a shame that
>> even some administrators will defend intentionally disrespectful
>> comments as so-called "free speech", rather than a breach of our
>> civility policies or the basic WMF terms of use for our websites.[3]
>>
>> P.S. Florence, your email gets automatically put in spam when using
>> Google's email system. I'm not even sure how to stop that happening
>> for yahoo addresses to this list.
>>
>> Links
>> 1. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump#
>> Defaulting_to_gender_neutral_language_in_policies_and_help_pages
>> 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/RFC_GNL
>> 3. https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Fae
>>
>> On 7 April 2017 at 20:58, Florence Devouard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > A couple of weeks ago, I was asked - in my capacity of meta admin - to
>> > change the phrasing of a site notice on meta, meant to call for
>> > participation to the month of Francophonie.
>> >
>> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:
>> Centralnotice-template-WikiFranca_MC17&diff=prev&oldid=16482259
>> >
>> > The sentence of the call in the site notice was in language neutral
>> > terminology.
>> >
>> > "les Wikimédien.nes" instead of the more traditionnal but non neutral
>> "les
>> > Wikimédiens".
>> >
>> > That phrasing raised an uproar on the French pump. So I replaced the
>> term by
>> > "nous" (we). Seems to settle things.
>> >
>> > Clearly the French speaking community is not ready to adopt the gender
>> > neutral specific language accross the francophones projects. Alternatives
>> > (such as the "we") are possible but not always.
>> >
>> > Florence
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Le 06/04/2017 14:58, Fæ a écrit :
>> >>
>> >> Thanks for the examples from French and I'm sure that our experienced
>> >> translators will have in mind specific best practice guides to turn
>> >> to. I like your illustration of "un/une adminstra-teur-trice" to show
>> >> the challenges. The use of "singular they" remains uncomfortable for
>> >> many English readers, but it has become a recommended standard for
>> >> journalists writing in English.[1]
>> >>
>> >> Once the principle of gender neutrality is agreed, I just don't know
>> >> what our next steps will turn out to be for non-English versions.
>> >> However I am much encouraged by the positive views on Commons, and I'm
>> >> hopeful we can, and should, find a way to set a better example for our
>> >> fellow projects in our aim to feel welcoming for all contributors. :-)
>> >>
>> >> Links
>> >> 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they
>> >>
>> >> Thanks
>> >> Fae
>> >> Wikimedia LGBT+
>> >>
>> >> On 6 April 2017 at 12:30, Antoine Musso <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Le 05/04/2017 à 12:52, Fæ a écrit :
>> >>>>
>> >>>>   I'm taking that further by
>> >>>> proposing that we stick to a neutral gender for all our policies and
>> >>>> help pages. In practice this means that policies avoid using "he or
>> >>>> she" and stick to "they" or avoid using a pronoun at all.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> As a non native English speaker the use of a plural form definitely
>> >>> confuses me or at best.  The example takes a sentence from Commons:FAQ
>> >>> which roughly looks like:
>> >>>
>> >>> A photographer has to be given credit when his or her picture is used.
>> >>>
>> >>> With the proposal to instead:
>> >>>
>> >>> A photographer has to be given credit when their picture is used.
>> >>>
>> >>> Why isn't "picture" plural as well?  If using masculine as a neutral
>> >>> pronoum is the issue, just stop using the pronoum entirely. Eg one can
>> >>> instead write:
>> >>>
>> >>> A photographer has to be given credit when the picture is used.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> That is going to be quite a challenge when ported to other languages.
>> >>> For 'A photographer', the english indefinite article is gender less.
>> >>>
>> >>> In french that would be either 'un' (masculine) or 'une' (feminine).
>> >>> What some are advocating is using:
>> >>>
>> >>>    Un/une photographe
>> >>>
>> >>> If the noun varies as well, that becomes messy. Here for
>> >>> 'administrateur':
>> >>>
>> >>>   Un/une adminstra-teur-trice
>> >>>
>> >>> That is not solvable in french and all other latin based languages most
>> >>> probably have the same issue (blame Rome!).
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> --
>> >>> Antoine "hashar" Musso
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> > New messages to: [hidden email]
>> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>> Personal and confidential, please do not circulate or re-quote.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
>> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
>> wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> New messages to: [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> GN.
> President Wikimedia Australia
> WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
> Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com

--
[hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae

_______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

jmh649
Excellent to see. Thanks Fae and agree this is an important initiative.

James

On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 1:13 AM, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I am delighted to say that Wikimedia Commons is today the /first/
> project to have an official Gender-neutral language policy for its
> policies and help pages, so that the project is a welcoming
> environment for all. Thanks to everyone that took part in the
> discussions and vote!
>
> * https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Use_of_gender_
> neutral_language *
>
> The proposal was an unplanned outcome from the WM-LGBT+ user group
> taking part in this year's Wikimedia Conference in Berlin, part of all
> the creative discussions that go on when so many international
> Wikimedians get together.
>
> If you missed it, the English Wikipedia has an ongoing 'lively'
> Request for Comment for its own Gender-neutral policy for policies,
> see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/RFC_GNL
>
> Thanks
> Fae
> Wikmedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT+
> https://telegram.me/wmlgbt
>
> On 8 April 2017 at 14:04, Gnangarra <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > I beg to differ with Anders final comment;
> >
> >>
> >> And our standpoint is that we as Wikipedians should not be first in
> >> introducing new use of language but wait until it has become mainstream
> (if
> >> it ever will be)
> >
> >
> > I have no issue within our policies and projects being a leader the use
> of
> > neutral language that encompasses all equally because neutrality is one
> of
> > the key pillars of the community.  We can and must do better to ensure
> that
> > everyone has the ability to contribute on an equal basis.
> >
> > If a language doesnt have a gender neutral way to express an individual
> > then we should be encouraging speakers to find alternative ways which can
> > best express our neutral position
> >
> > On 8 April 2017 at 20:32, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> Thanks for the French experience. :-) You may not have picked up on
> >> the specific comment about the French Wikipedia a few days ago in the
> >> general Wikimedia Commons Village Pump discussion:[1]
> >>
> >> "* Total Support. This is not only useful to the trans community, but
> >> in the case of French, it is more inclusive for women also, as the
> >> French (I'm writing French and this does not mean francophone) have
> >> the disastrous tendency to masculinize everything pretending this is
> >> the way the french grammar addresses "gender neutrality in French". I
> >> would really like us to reflect on writing a best practice manual for
> >> all those who want to have an inclusive language (coupled with a non
> >> violent communication guide for online practices). Actually on the
> >> French wikipedia, most pronouns are in the masculine form even on talk
> >> / user / help pages, and when one raises the issue, one gets insults
> >> and very silly remarks. --Nattes à chat"
> >>
> >> It is sad to see that the local community has difficulty staying
> >> respectful or even civil when these gender related discussions arise,
> >> and should be a welcoming and open debate about the facts for modern
> >> language usage. There are no easy solutions, apart from persisting,
> >> keeping the topic on our agenda, and gradually educating where we can,
> >> even though this gets very tiring for our best volunteers!
> >>
> >> The French Wikipedia is not alone, and I have been told over the last
> >> week of exactly the same problem of "silly comments" on the German
> >> Wikipedia, and my experience with raising a Request for Comment
> >> yesterday on the English Wikipedia[2] is that discussions on this do
> >> include critical views being expressed, which is okay, in a
> >> disrespectful way, which is definitely not okay! It's a shame that
> >> even some administrators will defend intentionally disrespectful
> >> comments as so-called "free speech", rather than a breach of our
> >> civility policies or the basic WMF terms of use for our websites.[3]
> >>
> >> P.S. Florence, your email gets automatically put in spam when using
> >> Google's email system. I'm not even sure how to stop that happening
> >> for yahoo addresses to this list.
> >>
> >> Links
> >> 1. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump#
> >> Defaulting_to_gender_neutral_language_in_policies_and_help_pages
> >> 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/RFC_GNL
> >> 3. https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Fae
> >>
> >> On 7 April 2017 at 20:58, Florence Devouard <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> > A couple of weeks ago, I was asked - in my capacity of meta admin - to
> >> > change the phrasing of a site notice on meta, meant to call for
> >> > participation to the month of Francophonie.
> >> >
> >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:
> >> Centralnotice-template-WikiFranca_MC17&diff=prev&oldid=16482259
> >> >
> >> > The sentence of the call in the site notice was in language neutral
> >> > terminology.
> >> >
> >> > "les Wikimédien.nes" instead of the more traditionnal but non neutral
> >> "les
> >> > Wikimédiens".
> >> >
> >> > That phrasing raised an uproar on the French pump. So I replaced the
> >> term by
> >> > "nous" (we). Seems to settle things.
> >> >
> >> > Clearly the French speaking community is not ready to adopt the gender
> >> > neutral specific language accross the francophones projects.
> Alternatives
> >> > (such as the "we") are possible but not always.
> >> >
> >> > Florence
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Le 06/04/2017 14:58, Fæ a écrit :
> >> >>
> >> >> Thanks for the examples from French and I'm sure that our experienced
> >> >> translators will have in mind specific best practice guides to turn
> >> >> to. I like your illustration of "un/une adminstra-teur-trice" to show
> >> >> the challenges. The use of "singular they" remains uncomfortable for
> >> >> many English readers, but it has become a recommended standard for
> >> >> journalists writing in English.[1]
> >> >>
> >> >> Once the principle of gender neutrality is agreed, I just don't know
> >> >> what our next steps will turn out to be for non-English versions.
> >> >> However I am much encouraged by the positive views on Commons, and
> I'm
> >> >> hopeful we can, and should, find a way to set a better example for
> our
> >> >> fellow projects in our aim to feel welcoming for all contributors.
> :-)
> >> >>
> >> >> Links
> >> >> 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they
> >> >>
> >> >> Thanks
> >> >> Fae
> >> >> Wikimedia LGBT+
> >> >>
> >> >> On 6 April 2017 at 12:30, Antoine Musso <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Le 05/04/2017 à 12:52, Fæ a écrit :
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>   I'm taking that further by
> >> >>>> proposing that we stick to a neutral gender for all our policies
> and
> >> >>>> help pages. In practice this means that policies avoid using "he or
> >> >>>> she" and stick to "they" or avoid using a pronoun at all.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> As a non native English speaker the use of a plural form definitely
> >> >>> confuses me or at best.  The example takes a sentence from
> Commons:FAQ
> >> >>> which roughly looks like:
> >> >>>
> >> >>> A photographer has to be given credit when his or her picture is
> used.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> With the proposal to instead:
> >> >>>
> >> >>> A photographer has to be given credit when their picture is used.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Why isn't "picture" plural as well?  If using masculine as a neutral
> >> >>> pronoum is the issue, just stop using the pronoum entirely. Eg one
> can
> >> >>> instead write:
> >> >>>
> >> >>> A photographer has to be given credit when the picture is used.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> That is going to be quite a challenge when ported to other
> languages.
> >> >>> For 'A photographer', the english indefinite article is gender less.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> In french that would be either 'un' (masculine) or 'une' (feminine).
> >> >>> What some are advocating is using:
> >> >>>
> >> >>>    Un/une photographe
> >> >>>
> >> >>> If the noun varies as well, that becomes messy. Here for
> >> >>> 'administrateur':
> >> >>>
> >> >>>   Un/une adminstra-teur-trice
> >> >>>
> >> >>> That is not solvable in french and all other latin based languages
> most
> >> >>> probably have the same issue (blame Rome!).
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> --
> >> >>> Antoine "hashar" Musso
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> >> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> ,
> >> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> >> Personal and confidential, please do not circulate or re-quote.
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> >> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> >> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >> New messages to: [hidden email]
> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> >> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > GN.
> > President Wikimedia Australia
> > WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
> > Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
>
> --
> [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>




--
James Heilman
MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian

The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

Amir E. Aharoni
In reply to this post by Fæ
Mmmm, the Hebrew Wikipedia has been gender-neutral for at least eight years
:)

So Commons is not exactly the first project to do this.


בתאריך 12 באפר׳ 2017 10:14 AM,‏ "Fæ" <[hidden email]> כתב:

I am delighted to say that Wikimedia Commons is today the /first/
project to have an official Gender-neutral language policy for its
policies and help pages, so that the project is a welcoming
environment for all. Thanks to everyone that took part in the
discussions and vote!

* https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Use_of_gender_neutral_language
*

The proposal was an unplanned outcome from the WM-LGBT+ user group
taking part in this year's Wikimedia Conference in Berlin, part of all
the creative discussions that go on when so many international
Wikimedians get together.

If you missed it, the English Wikipedia has an ongoing 'lively'
Request for Comment for its own Gender-neutral policy for policies,
see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/RFC_GNL

Thanks
Fae
Wikmedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT+
https://telegram.me/wmlgbt

On 8 April 2017 at 14:04, Gnangarra <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I beg to differ with Anders final comment;
>
>>
>> And our standpoint is that we as Wikipedians should not be first in
>> introducing new use of language but wait until it has become mainstream
(if
>> it ever will be)
>
>
> I have no issue within our policies and projects being a leader the use of
> neutral language that encompasses all equally because neutrality is one of
> the key pillars of the community.  We can and must do better to ensure
that

> everyone has the ability to contribute on an equal basis.
>
> If a language doesnt have a gender neutral way to express an individual
> then we should be encouraging speakers to find alternative ways which can
> best express our neutral position
>
> On 8 April 2017 at 20:32, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the French experience. :-) You may not have picked up on
>> the specific comment about the French Wikipedia a few days ago in the
>> general Wikimedia Commons Village Pump discussion:[1]
>>
>> "* Total Support. This is not only useful to the trans community, but
>> in the case of French, it is more inclusive for women also, as the
>> French (I'm writing French and this does not mean francophone) have
>> the disastrous tendency to masculinize everything pretending this is
>> the way the french grammar addresses "gender neutrality in French". I
>> would really like us to reflect on writing a best practice manual for
>> all those who want to have an inclusive language (coupled with a non
>> violent communication guide for online practices). Actually on the
>> French wikipedia, most pronouns are in the masculine form even on talk
>> / user / help pages, and when one raises the issue, one gets insults
>> and very silly remarks. --Nattes à chat"
>>
>> It is sad to see that the local community has difficulty staying
>> respectful or even civil when these gender related discussions arise,
>> and should be a welcoming and open debate about the facts for modern
>> language usage. There are no easy solutions, apart from persisting,
>> keeping the topic on our agenda, and gradually educating where we can,
>> even though this gets very tiring for our best volunteers!
>>
>> The French Wikipedia is not alone, and I have been told over the last
>> week of exactly the same problem of "silly comments" on the German
>> Wikipedia, and my experience with raising a Request for Comment
>> yesterday on the English Wikipedia[2] is that discussions on this do
>> include critical views being expressed, which is okay, in a
>> disrespectful way, which is definitely not okay! It's a shame that
>> even some administrators will defend intentionally disrespectful
>> comments as so-called "free speech", rather than a breach of our
>> civility policies or the basic WMF terms of use for our websites.[3]
>>
>> P.S. Florence, your email gets automatically put in spam when using
>> Google's email system. I'm not even sure how to stop that happening
>> for yahoo addresses to this list.
>>
>> Links
>> 1. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump#
>> Defaulting_to_gender_neutral_language_in_policies_and_help_pages
>> 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/RFC_GNL
>> 3. https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Fae
>>
>> On 7 April 2017 at 20:58, Florence Devouard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > A couple of weeks ago, I was asked - in my capacity of meta admin - to
>> > change the phrasing of a site notice on meta, meant to call for
>> > participation to the month of Francophonie.
>> >
>> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:
>> Centralnotice-template-WikiFranca_MC17&diff=prev&oldid=16482259
>> >
>> > The sentence of the call in the site notice was in language neutral
>> > terminology.
>> >
>> > "les Wikimédien.nes" instead of the more traditionnal but non neutral
>> "les
>> > Wikimédiens".
>> >
>> > That phrasing raised an uproar on the French pump. So I replaced the
>> term by
>> > "nous" (we). Seems to settle things.
>> >
>> > Clearly the French speaking community is not ready to adopt the gender
>> > neutral specific language accross the francophones projects.
Alternatives

>> > (such as the "we") are possible but not always.
>> >
>> > Florence
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Le 06/04/2017 14:58, Fæ a écrit :
>> >>
>> >> Thanks for the examples from French and I'm sure that our experienced
>> >> translators will have in mind specific best practice guides to turn
>> >> to. I like your illustration of "un/une adminstra-teur-trice" to show
>> >> the challenges. The use of "singular they" remains uncomfortable for
>> >> many English readers, but it has become a recommended standard for
>> >> journalists writing in English.[1]
>> >>
>> >> Once the principle of gender neutrality is agreed, I just don't know
>> >> what our next steps will turn out to be for non-English versions.
>> >> However I am much encouraged by the positive views on Commons, and I'm
>> >> hopeful we can, and should, find a way to set a better example for our
>> >> fellow projects in our aim to feel welcoming for all contributors. :-)
>> >>
>> >> Links
>> >> 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they
>> >>
>> >> Thanks
>> >> Fae
>> >> Wikimedia LGBT+
>> >>
>> >> On 6 April 2017 at 12:30, Antoine Musso <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Le 05/04/2017 à 12:52, Fæ a écrit :
>> >>>>
>> >>>>   I'm taking that further by
>> >>>> proposing that we stick to a neutral gender for all our policies and
>> >>>> help pages. In practice this means that policies avoid using "he or
>> >>>> she" and stick to "they" or avoid using a pronoun at all.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> As a non native English speaker the use of a plural form definitely
>> >>> confuses me or at best.  The example takes a sentence from
Commons:FAQ
>> >>> which roughly looks like:
>> >>>
>> >>> A photographer has to be given credit when his or her picture is
used.
>> >>>
>> >>> With the proposal to instead:
>> >>>
>> >>> A photographer has to be given credit when their picture is used.
>> >>>
>> >>> Why isn't "picture" plural as well?  If using masculine as a neutral
>> >>> pronoum is the issue, just stop using the pronoum entirely. Eg one
can

>> >>> instead write:
>> >>>
>> >>> A photographer has to be given credit when the picture is used.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> That is going to be quite a challenge when ported to other languages.
>> >>> For 'A photographer', the english indefinite article is gender less.
>> >>>
>> >>> In french that would be either 'un' (masculine) or 'une' (feminine).
>> >>> What some are advocating is using:
>> >>>
>> >>>    Un/une photographe
>> >>>
>> >>> If the noun varies as well, that becomes messy. Here for
>> >>> 'administrateur':
>> >>>
>> >>>   Un/une adminstra-teur-trice
>> >>>
>> >>> That is not solvable in french and all other latin based languages
most

>> >>> probably have the same issue (blame Rome!).
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> --
>> >>> Antoine "hashar" Musso
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> > New messages to: [hidden email]
>> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>> Personal and confidential, please do not circulate or re-quote.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
>> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
>> wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> New messages to: [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> GN.
> President Wikimedia Australia
> WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
> Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com

--
[hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

Subhashish Panigrahi
The Odia-language itself is gender neutral though we have some
gender-specific pronouns. So we never worried about these issues. :)

Subhashish

On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 10:29 AM, Amir E. Aharoni <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Mmmm, the Hebrew Wikipedia has been gender-neutral for at least eight years
> :)
>
> So Commons is not exactly the first project to do this.
>
>
> בתאריך 12 באפר׳ 2017 10:14 AM,‏ "Fæ" <[hidden email]> כתב:
>
> I am delighted to say that Wikimedia Commons is today the /first/
> project to have an official Gender-neutral language policy for its
> policies and help pages, so that the project is a welcoming
> environment for all. Thanks to everyone that took part in the
> discussions and vote!
>
> * https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Use_of_gender_
> neutral_language
> *
>
> The proposal was an unplanned outcome from the WM-LGBT+ user group
> taking part in this year's Wikimedia Conference in Berlin, part of all
> the creative discussions that go on when so many international
> Wikimedians get together.
>
> If you missed it, the English Wikipedia has an ongoing 'lively'
> Request for Comment for its own Gender-neutral policy for policies,
> see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/RFC_GNL
>
> Thanks
> Fae
> Wikmedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT+
> https://telegram.me/wmlgbt
>
> On 8 April 2017 at 14:04, Gnangarra <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > I beg to differ with Anders final comment;
> >
> >>
> >> And our standpoint is that we as Wikipedians should not be first in
> >> introducing new use of language but wait until it has become mainstream
> (if
> >> it ever will be)
> >
> >
> > I have no issue within our policies and projects being a leader the use
> of
> > neutral language that encompasses all equally because neutrality is one
> of
> > the key pillars of the community.  We can and must do better to ensure
> that
> > everyone has the ability to contribute on an equal basis.
> >
> > If a language doesnt have a gender neutral way to express an individual
> > then we should be encouraging speakers to find alternative ways which can
> > best express our neutral position
> >
> > On 8 April 2017 at 20:32, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> Thanks for the French experience. :-) You may not have picked up on
> >> the specific comment about the French Wikipedia a few days ago in the
> >> general Wikimedia Commons Village Pump discussion:[1]
> >>
> >> "* Total Support. This is not only useful to the trans community, but
> >> in the case of French, it is more inclusive for women also, as the
> >> French (I'm writing French and this does not mean francophone) have
> >> the disastrous tendency to masculinize everything pretending this is
> >> the way the french grammar addresses "gender neutrality in French". I
> >> would really like us to reflect on writing a best practice manual for
> >> all those who want to have an inclusive language (coupled with a non
> >> violent communication guide for online practices). Actually on the
> >> French wikipedia, most pronouns are in the masculine form even on talk
> >> / user / help pages, and when one raises the issue, one gets insults
> >> and very silly remarks. --Nattes à chat"
> >>
> >> It is sad to see that the local community has difficulty staying
> >> respectful or even civil when these gender related discussions arise,
> >> and should be a welcoming and open debate about the facts for modern
> >> language usage. There are no easy solutions, apart from persisting,
> >> keeping the topic on our agenda, and gradually educating where we can,
> >> even though this gets very tiring for our best volunteers!
> >>
> >> The French Wikipedia is not alone, and I have been told over the last
> >> week of exactly the same problem of "silly comments" on the German
> >> Wikipedia, and my experience with raising a Request for Comment
> >> yesterday on the English Wikipedia[2] is that discussions on this do
> >> include critical views being expressed, which is okay, in a
> >> disrespectful way, which is definitely not okay! It's a shame that
> >> even some administrators will defend intentionally disrespectful
> >> comments as so-called "free speech", rather than a breach of our
> >> civility policies or the basic WMF terms of use for our websites.[3]
> >>
> >> P.S. Florence, your email gets automatically put in spam when using
> >> Google's email system. I'm not even sure how to stop that happening
> >> for yahoo addresses to this list.
> >>
> >> Links
> >> 1. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump#
> >> Defaulting_to_gender_neutral_language_in_policies_and_help_pages
> >> 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/RFC_GNL
> >> 3. https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Fae
> >>
> >> On 7 April 2017 at 20:58, Florence Devouard <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> > A couple of weeks ago, I was asked - in my capacity of meta admin - to
> >> > change the phrasing of a site notice on meta, meant to call for
> >> > participation to the month of Francophonie.
> >> >
> >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:
> >> Centralnotice-template-WikiFranca_MC17&diff=prev&oldid=16482259
> >> >
> >> > The sentence of the call in the site notice was in language neutral
> >> > terminology.
> >> >
> >> > "les Wikimédien.nes" instead of the more traditionnal but non neutral
> >> "les
> >> > Wikimédiens".
> >> >
> >> > That phrasing raised an uproar on the French pump. So I replaced the
> >> term by
> >> > "nous" (we). Seems to settle things.
> >> >
> >> > Clearly the French speaking community is not ready to adopt the gender
> >> > neutral specific language accross the francophones projects.
> Alternatives
> >> > (such as the "we") are possible but not always.
> >> >
> >> > Florence
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Le 06/04/2017 14:58, Fæ a écrit :
> >> >>
> >> >> Thanks for the examples from French and I'm sure that our experienced
> >> >> translators will have in mind specific best practice guides to turn
> >> >> to. I like your illustration of "un/une adminstra-teur-trice" to show
> >> >> the challenges. The use of "singular they" remains uncomfortable for
> >> >> many English readers, but it has become a recommended standard for
> >> >> journalists writing in English.[1]
> >> >>
> >> >> Once the principle of gender neutrality is agreed, I just don't know
> >> >> what our next steps will turn out to be for non-English versions.
> >> >> However I am much encouraged by the positive views on Commons, and
> I'm
> >> >> hopeful we can, and should, find a way to set a better example for
> our
> >> >> fellow projects in our aim to feel welcoming for all contributors.
> :-)
> >> >>
> >> >> Links
> >> >> 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they
> >> >>
> >> >> Thanks
> >> >> Fae
> >> >> Wikimedia LGBT+
> >> >>
> >> >> On 6 April 2017 at 12:30, Antoine Musso <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Le 05/04/2017 à 12:52, Fæ a écrit :
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>   I'm taking that further by
> >> >>>> proposing that we stick to a neutral gender for all our policies
> and
> >> >>>> help pages. In practice this means that policies avoid using "he or
> >> >>>> she" and stick to "they" or avoid using a pronoun at all.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> As a non native English speaker the use of a plural form definitely
> >> >>> confuses me or at best.  The example takes a sentence from
> Commons:FAQ
> >> >>> which roughly looks like:
> >> >>>
> >> >>> A photographer has to be given credit when his or her picture is
> used.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> With the proposal to instead:
> >> >>>
> >> >>> A photographer has to be given credit when their picture is used.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Why isn't "picture" plural as well?  If using masculine as a neutral
> >> >>> pronoum is the issue, just stop using the pronoum entirely. Eg one
> can
> >> >>> instead write:
> >> >>>
> >> >>> A photographer has to be given credit when the picture is used.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> That is going to be quite a challenge when ported to other
> languages.
> >> >>> For 'A photographer', the english indefinite article is gender less.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> In french that would be either 'un' (masculine) or 'une' (feminine).
> >> >>> What some are advocating is using:
> >> >>>
> >> >>>    Un/une photographe
> >> >>>
> >> >>> If the noun varies as well, that becomes messy. Here for
> >> >>> 'administrateur':
> >> >>>
> >> >>>   Un/une adminstra-teur-trice
> >> >>>
> >> >>> That is not solvable in french and all other latin based languages
> most
> >> >>> probably have the same issue (blame Rome!).
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> --
> >> >>> Antoine "hashar" Musso
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> >> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> ,
> >> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> >> Personal and confidential, please do not circulate or re-quote.
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> >> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> >> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >> New messages to: [hidden email]
> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> >> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > GN.
> > President Wikimedia Australia
> > WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
> > Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
>
> --
> [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

Natacha Rault
In reply to this post by Florence Devouard-3
Hi Florence
Just a small remark : actually the message that was used in the end on the site notice is gender neutral, and was acceptable for all. There is sometimes a way out of the binary gendering in French, « nous" for example has no attributed gender. Using wikimedien·ne·s does not include people who do not want to be affiliated to any gender at all (we say a-genre in French, but I dont know the word in english).
I take an example: instead of saying « lecteurs et lectrices », one can say « le lectorat » and nobody would even notice (even the persons opposed to the feminization of titles). Now here there was a big debate on Theresa May’s <https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theresa_May> page, and in the end one can read now « première ministre » which is probably one of the first time the community voted in this direction (with lots and lots go heated debates).
The French community is not as irrational about neutral gender as it used to be, that’s for sure.
So I would not be as pessimist as you are actually, the French community is not used to using gender neutral language but there are examples of it. See for example there for the next Wikiconvention  <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiConvention_francophone/2017/fr>where the term « participant·e·s » shows up in the first page…
Kind regards,
Nattes à chat



> Le 7 avr. 2017 à 21:58, Florence Devouard <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>
> A couple of weeks ago, I was asked - in my capacity of meta admin - to change the phrasing of a site notice on meta, meant to call for participation to the month of Francophonie.
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Centralnotice-template-WikiFranca_MC17&diff=prev&oldid=16482259
>
> The sentence of the call in the site notice was in language neutral terminology.
>
> "les Wikimédien.nes" instead of the more traditionnal but non neutral "les Wikimédiens".
>
> That phrasing raised an uproar on the French pump. So I replaced the term by "nous" (we). Seems to settle things.
>
> Clearly the French speaking community is not ready to adopt the gender neutral specific language accross the francophones projects. Alternatives (such as the "we") are possible but not always.
>
> Florence
>
>
>
> Le 06/04/2017 14:58, Fæ a écrit :
>> Thanks for the examples from French and I'm sure that our experienced
>> translators will have in mind specific best practice guides to turn
>> to. I like your illustration of "un/une adminstra-teur-trice" to show
>> the challenges. The use of "singular they" remains uncomfortable for
>> many English readers, but it has become a recommended standard for
>> journalists writing in English.[1]
>>
>> Once the principle of gender neutrality is agreed, I just don't know
>> what our next steps will turn out to be for non-English versions.
>> However I am much encouraged by the positive views on Commons, and I'm
>> hopeful we can, and should, find a way to set a better example for our
>> fellow projects in our aim to feel welcoming for all contributors. :-)
>>
>> Links
>> 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they
>>
>> Thanks
>> Fae
>> Wikimedia LGBT+
>>
>> On 6 April 2017 at 12:30, Antoine Musso <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Le 05/04/2017 à 12:52, Fæ a écrit :
>>>>  I'm taking that further by
>>>> proposing that we stick to a neutral gender for all our policies and
>>>> help pages. In practice this means that policies avoid using "he or
>>>> she" and stick to "they" or avoid using a pronoun at all.
>>>
>>> As a non native English speaker the use of a plural form definitely
>>> confuses me or at best.  The example takes a sentence from Commons:FAQ
>>> which roughly looks like:
>>>
>>> A photographer has to be given credit when his or her picture is used.
>>>
>>> With the proposal to instead:
>>>
>>> A photographer has to be given credit when their picture is used.
>>>
>>> Why isn't "picture" plural as well?  If using masculine as a neutral
>>> pronoum is the issue, just stop using the pronoum entirely. Eg one can
>>> instead write:
>>>
>>> A photographer has to be given credit when the picture is used.
>>>
>>>
>>> That is going to be quite a challenge when ported to other languages.
>>> For 'A photographer', the english indefinite article is gender less.
>>>
>>> In french that would be either 'un' (masculine) or 'une' (feminine).
>>> What some are advocating is using:
>>>
>>>   Un/une photographe
>>>
>>> If the noun varies as well, that becomes messy. Here for 'administrateur':
>>>
>>>  Un/une adminstra-teur-trice
>>>
>>> That is not solvable in french and all other latin based languages most
>>> probably have the same issue (blame Rome!).
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Antoine "hashar" Musso
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

Natacha Rault
In reply to this post by Antoine Musso-3
Dear Antoine, it is solvable in French and there are some very good practice manual online here is one from Switzerland https://www.unige.ch/rectorat/egalite/files/9414/0353/2732/charte_epicene_Chancelerie_guide_formulation_non_sexiste.pdf <https://www.unige.ch/rectorat/egalite/files/9414/0353/2732/charte_epicene_Chancelerie_guide_formulation_non_sexiste.pdf>.

You might all appreciate an English review of these themes from an academic perspective : http://www.fairlanguage.org/medias <http://www.fairlanguage.org/medias>

The form you cite underneath "Un/une adminstra-teur-trice » would never be used. One would rather write "un administrateur ou une administratrice » in this case.

Kind regards,

Nattes à chat

> Le 6 avr. 2017 à 13:30, Antoine Musso <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>
> Le 05/04/2017 à 12:52, Fæ a écrit :
>> I'm taking that further by
>> proposing that we stick to a neutral gender for all our policies and
>> help pages. In practice this means that policies avoid using "he or
>> she" and stick to "they" or avoid using a pronoun at all.
>
> As a non native English speaker the use of a plural form definitely
> confuses me or at best.  The example takes a sentence from Commons:FAQ
> which roughly looks like:
>
> A photographer has to be given credit when his or her picture is used.
>
> With the proposal to instead:
>
> A photographer has to be given credit when their picture is used.
>
> Why isn't "picture" plural as well?  If using masculine as a neutral
> pronoum is the issue, just stop using the pronoum entirely. Eg one can
> instead write:
>
> A photographer has to be given credit when the picture is used.
>
>
> That is going to be quite a challenge when ported to other languages.
> For 'A photographer', the english indefinite article is gender less.
>
> In french that would be either 'un' (masculine) or 'une' (feminine).
> What some are advocating is using:
>
>  Un/une photographe
>
> If the noun varies as well, that becomes messy. Here for 'administrateur':
>
> Un/une adminstra-teur-trice
>
> That is not solvable in french and all other latin based languages most
> probably have the same issue (blame Rome!).
>
>
> --
> Antoine "hashar" Musso
>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

Fæ
In reply to this post by Fæ
Reminder! If you want to express your opinion in the English Wikipedia
Request for Comment on whether to adopt gender neutral language in
Wikipedia policies (but not articles or discussion pages), this is due
to be *closed this weekend* having reached 30 days for votes and
discussion.
Shortcut: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/RFC_GNL
Full link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/RfC_to_adopt_a_default_gender_neutral_style_for_policy,_guidelines_and_help_pages

The tally is currently 80 support votes versus 61 oppose votes. That's
57.6% support. A non-controversial "supermajority", as used in some
past RfCs, would require over 60% support.

As a taster, here are 3 sample views expressed for support and oppose,
it's worth browsing through the RfC discussion section to get a feel
for the arguments raised and balance of evidence:

Support "I have no issues with this being done. Assuming proper
grammar is maintained, I think that this can probably be done without
an RfC. Though perhaps the opposition here proves otherwise."

Support "It does not affect others but helps those, who do not use he
or she as pronouns. Using they is also shorter than writing he or
she."

Support "I support the use of gender-neutral language in order to make
everyone feel welcome here at Wikipedia."

Oppose "I do not support altering our text to the proposed doublethink
new-language at the behest of a small minority of non-conformers who
perceive micro-aggressions from standard wording."

Oppose "I am a person, not an object. I was born a man, I will die a
man, and I demand to be referred to in a gender supportive language.
Don't force you preference for gender neutrality on the rest of us
through policy initiatives, otherwise it ceases to be neutrality and
becomes fascist in nature."

Oppose "A bridge too far, heavyhanded and unnecessary. Sure I'd be on
board with suggesting that generic "he" be replaced with singular
"they" or "he or she" or whatever. But, no, even "he or she" is
considered hostile. Sorry, I consider this an egregious case of
special pleading and first-world-problemism. How about instead lets
worry about how we are unwelcoming to women. That's a lot bigger
problem."

To see who said what, go to the RfC. :-)

Thanks,
Fae
Wikimedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT+

On 7 April 2017 at 22:51, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:

> An English Wikipedia gender neutral policy, similar to the one
> developed for Commons, is now under "lively" discussion in a Requests
> for Comment started this afternoon. You can read the proposed policy
> and join in by adding your viewpoint at:
> Shortcut: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/RFC_GNL
> Full link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/RfC_to_adopt_a_default_gender_neutral_style_for_policy,_guidelines_and_help_pages
>
> Some of the comments may be upsetting for some readers. I've actually
> been a bit surprised. If it's too much drama for you, go focus on
> something more fun.
>
> Thanks,
> Fae
> Wikimedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT+
>
> On 5 April 2017 at 11:44, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> * https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump#Defaulting_to_gender_neutral_language_in_the_Commons_namespace
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> One of the outcomes from my weekend at the Wikimedia Conference in
>> Berlin, was that the various discussions over /feeling/ more welcoming
>> in our language presumptions for non-male contributors made me think
>> about taking some practical steps on my home project. Commons is lucky
>> that having a standard policy language of English makes it easier to
>> use neutral gender in policy statements. I'm taking that further by
>> proposing that we stick to a neutral gender for all our policies and
>> help pages. In practice this means that policies avoid using "he or
>> she" and stick to "they" or avoid using a pronoun at all. I'm hoping
>> that the outcome will feel like a much more natural space for people
>> like me that prefer to stay gender neutral, possibly give a slightly
>> safer feeling to the project by the very act of making the effort, as
>> well as avoiding an over-emphasis on binary gender when it's pretty
>> easy to simply avoid it.
>>
>> Comments are welcome on the specific proposal, or you may have ideas
>> for other local projects to do something similar. I'm aware that this
>> is much more difficult to make progress on in languages such as German
>> or Spanish that have a presumption of male/female gender within their
>> vocabulary, so any cases of on-project initiatives in non-English
>> would be especially interesting. Solving these challenges is an
>> opportunity to make our projects a leader on gender neutrality...
> --
> [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae

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