[Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

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[Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

Cristian Consonni-3
Hi,

I have written a proposal about setting up an onion (hidden) service to
serve Wikipedia over Tor:

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IdeaLab/A_Tor_Onion_Service_for_Wikipedia

I was thinking about this and I also discovered that the Internet
Archive is experimenting with a very similar idea:
www.hackerfactor.com/blog/index.php?/archives/750-Freedom-of-Information.html

I would like to have some feedback on this, I am also in contact with
the author of the aforementioned proxy which could be able to give some
help in setting it up.

Thank you.

Cristian

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

David Cuenca Tudela
I think that's an excellent idea and very much aligned with our commitment
to provide free information also for those who are living under unfavorable
conditions.

I personally endorse it.

Thanks Cristian for suggesting it.

Regards,
Micru

On Jun 5, 2017 19:11, "Cristian Consonni" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I have written a proposal about setting up an onion (hidden) service to
> serve Wikipedia over Tor:
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IdeaLab/A_Tor_
> Onion_Service_for_Wikipedia
>
> I was thinking about this and I also discovered that the Internet
> Archive is experimenting with a very similar idea:
> www.hackerfactor.com/blog/index.php?/archives/750-
> Freedom-of-Information.html
>
> I would like to have some feedback on this, I am also in contact with
> the author of the aforementioned proxy which could be able to give some
> help in setting it up.
>
> Thank you.
>
> Cristian
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

David Gerard-2
Editing may be a tricky one, particularly on en:wp, which has found
Tor exit points to overwhelmingly be fountains of garbage, and
automatically blocks them.


- d.


On 5 June 2017 at 18:30, David Cuenca Tudela <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I think that's an excellent idea and very much aligned with our commitment
> to provide free information also for those who are living under unfavorable
> conditions.
>
> I personally endorse it.
>
> Thanks Cristian for suggesting it.
>
> Regards,
> Micru
>
> On Jun 5, 2017 19:11, "Cristian Consonni" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I have written a proposal about setting up an onion (hidden) service to
>> serve Wikipedia over Tor:
>>
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IdeaLab/A_Tor_
>> Onion_Service_for_Wikipedia
>>
>> I was thinking about this and I also discovered that the Internet
>> Archive is experimenting with a very similar idea:
>> www.hackerfactor.com/blog/index.php?/archives/750-
>> Freedom-of-Information.html
>>
>> I would like to have some feedback on this, I am also in contact with
>> the author of the aforementioned proxy which could be able to give some
>> help in setting it up.
>>
>> Thank you.
>>
>> Cristian
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
>> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
>> wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> New messages to: [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

John Doe-27
enabling read access via Tor shouldn't be an issue, however editing should
not be allowed due to high volume of known abuse from that vector.

On Mon, Jun 5, 2017 at 1:43 PM, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Editing may be a tricky one, particularly on en:wp, which has found
> Tor exit points to overwhelmingly be fountains of garbage, and
> automatically blocks them.
>
>
> - d.
>
>
> On 5 June 2017 at 18:30, David Cuenca Tudela <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > I think that's an excellent idea and very much aligned with our
> commitment
> > to provide free information also for those who are living under
> unfavorable
> > conditions.
> >
> > I personally endorse it.
> >
> > Thanks Cristian for suggesting it.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Micru
> >
> > On Jun 5, 2017 19:11, "Cristian Consonni" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> I have written a proposal about setting up an onion (hidden) service to
> >> serve Wikipedia over Tor:
> >>
> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IdeaLab/A_Tor_
> >> Onion_Service_for_Wikipedia
> >>
> >> I was thinking about this and I also discovered that the Internet
> >> Archive is experimenting with a very similar idea:
> >> www.hackerfactor.com/blog/index.php?/archives/750-
> >> Freedom-of-Information.html
> >>
> >> I would like to have some feedback on this, I am also in contact with
> >> the author of the aforementioned proxy which could be able to give some
> >> help in setting it up.
> >>
> >> Thank you.
> >>
> >> Cristian
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> >> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> >> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >> New messages to: [hidden email]
> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> >> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
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>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

Gabriel Thullen
I imagine registered users could edit through TOR. That is how it works
with my school IP: anonymous edits are blocked, account creation as well,
but you can sign in an edit.

On Mon, Jun 5, 2017 at 7:47 PM, John <[hidden email]> wrote:

> enabling read access via Tor shouldn't be an issue, however editing should
> not be allowed due to high volume of known abuse from that vector.
>
> On Mon, Jun 5, 2017 at 1:43 PM, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Editing may be a tricky one, particularly on en:wp, which has found
> > Tor exit points to overwhelmingly be fountains of garbage, and
> > automatically blocks them.
> >
> >
> > - d.
> >
> >
> > On 5 June 2017 at 18:30, David Cuenca Tudela <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > I think that's an excellent idea and very much aligned with our
> > commitment
> > > to provide free information also for those who are living under
> > unfavorable
> > > conditions.
> > >
> > > I personally endorse it.
> > >
> > > Thanks Cristian for suggesting it.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Micru
> > >
> > > On Jun 5, 2017 19:11, "Cristian Consonni" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Hi,
> > >>
> > >> I have written a proposal about setting up an onion (hidden) service
> to
> > >> serve Wikipedia over Tor:
> > >>
> > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IdeaLab/A_Tor_
> > >> Onion_Service_for_Wikipedia
> > >>
> > >> I was thinking about this and I also discovered that the Internet
> > >> Archive is experimenting with a very similar idea:
> > >> www.hackerfactor.com/blog/index.php?/archives/750-
> > >> Freedom-of-Information.html
> > >>
> > >> I would like to have some feedback on this, I am also in contact with
> > >> the author of the aforementioned proxy which could be able to give
> some
> > >> help in setting it up.
> > >>
> > >> Thank you.
> > >>
> > >> Cristian
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > >> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > >> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > >> New messages to: [hidden email]
> > >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> ,
> > >> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

John Doe-27
Im not going to violate BEANS, but even allowing accounts to edit without
further hurdles isn't going to work. Because of the anonymity that tor
provides its fairly easy to cause widespread issues. When the vandals start
actually using tactics the flood gates of TOR will cause massive issues
cross wiki that requires steward level intervention on a regular basis.

On Mon, Jun 5, 2017 at 2:53 PM, Gabriel Thullen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I imagine registered users could edit through TOR. That is how it works
> with my school IP: anonymous edits are blocked, account creation as well,
> but you can sign in an edit.
>
> On Mon, Jun 5, 2017 at 7:47 PM, John <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > enabling read access via Tor shouldn't be an issue, however editing
> should
> > not be allowed due to high volume of known abuse from that vector.
> >
> > On Mon, Jun 5, 2017 at 1:43 PM, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > Editing may be a tricky one, particularly on en:wp, which has found
> > > Tor exit points to overwhelmingly be fountains of garbage, and
> > > automatically blocks them.
> > >
> > >
> > > - d.
> > >
> > >
> > > On 5 June 2017 at 18:30, David Cuenca Tudela <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > > > I think that's an excellent idea and very much aligned with our
> > > commitment
> > > > to provide free information also for those who are living under
> > > unfavorable
> > > > conditions.
> > > >
> > > > I personally endorse it.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks Cristian for suggesting it.
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Micru
> > > >
> > > > On Jun 5, 2017 19:11, "Cristian Consonni" <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Hi,
> > > >>
> > > >> I have written a proposal about setting up an onion (hidden) service
> > to
> > > >> serve Wikipedia over Tor:
> > > >>
> > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IdeaLab/A_Tor_
> > > >> Onion_Service_for_Wikipedia
> > > >>
> > > >> I was thinking about this and I also discovered that the Internet
> > > >> Archive is experimenting with a very similar idea:
> > > >> www.hackerfactor.com/blog/index.php?/archives/750-
> > > >> Freedom-of-Information.html
> > > >>
> > > >> I would like to have some feedback on this, I am also in contact
> with
> > > >> the author of the aforementioned proxy which could be able to give
> > some
> > > >> help in setting it up.
> > > >>
> > > >> Thank you.
> > > >>
> > > >> Cristian
> > > >>
> > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > >> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > >> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > >> New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
> mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > ,
> > > >> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=
> unsubscribe>
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
> mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

John Doe-27
In reply to this post by Gabriel Thullen
Im not going to violate BEANS, but even allowing accounts to edit without
further hurdles isn't going to work. Because of the anonymity that tor
provides its fairly easy to cause widespread issues. When the vandals start
actually using tactics the flood gates of TOR will cause massive issues
cross wiki that requires steward level intervention on a regular basis.

On Mon, Jun 5, 2017 at 2:53 PM, Gabriel Thullen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I imagine registered users could edit through TOR. That is how it works
> with my school IP: anonymous edits are blocked, account creation as well,
> but you can sign in an edit.
>
> On Mon, Jun 5, 2017 at 7:47 PM, John <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > enabling read access via Tor shouldn't be an issue, however editing
> should
> > not be allowed due to high volume of known abuse from that vector.
> >
> > On Mon, Jun 5, 2017 at 1:43 PM, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > Editing may be a tricky one, particularly on en:wp, which has found
> > > Tor exit points to overwhelmingly be fountains of garbage, and
> > > automatically blocks them.
> > >
> > >
> > > - d.
> > >
> > >
> > > On 5 June 2017 at 18:30, David Cuenca Tudela <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > > > I think that's an excellent idea and very much aligned with our
> > > commitment
> > > > to provide free information also for those who are living under
> > > unfavorable
> > > > conditions.
> > > >
> > > > I personally endorse it.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks Cristian for suggesting it.
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Micru
> > > >
> > > > On Jun 5, 2017 19:11, "Cristian Consonni" <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Hi,
> > > >>
> > > >> I have written a proposal about setting up an onion (hidden) service
> > to
> > > >> serve Wikipedia over Tor:
> > > >>
> > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IdeaLab/A_Tor_
> > > >> Onion_Service_for_Wikipedia
> > > >>
> > > >> I was thinking about this and I also discovered that the Internet
> > > >> Archive is experimenting with a very similar idea:
> > > >> www.hackerfactor.com/blog/index.php?/archives/750-
> > > >> Freedom-of-Information.html
> > > >>
> > > >> I would like to have some feedback on this, I am also in contact
> with
> > > >> the author of the aforementioned proxy which could be able to give
> > some
> > > >> help in setting it up.
> > > >>
> > > >> Thank you.
> > > >>
> > > >> Cristian
> > > >>
> > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > >> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > >> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > >> New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
> mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > ,
> > > >> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=
> unsubscribe>
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
> mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
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> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

Amazon Sec. Team messages-noreply@amazon.com
In reply to this post by Gabriel Thullen
Nope.

Tor users needs `ip block exempt` or `global ip block exempt` to edit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IP_block_exemption seem to say so too. ("In highly exceptional circumstances, an editor may be permitted to edit anonymously, via Tor or another anonymizing proxy.")

--
Yongmin

Sent from my iPhone
https://wp.revi.blog
Please note that this address is list-only address and any non-mailing list mails will be treated as spam.
Please use https://encrypt.to/0x947f156f16250de39788c3c35b625da5beff197a.

2017. 6. 6. 03:53 Gabriel Thullen <[hidden email]> 작성:

> I imagine registered users could edit through TOR. That is how it works
> with my school IP: anonymous edits are blocked, account creation as well,
> but you can sign in an edit.
>
>> On Mon, Jun 5, 2017 at 7:47 PM, John <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> enabling read access via Tor shouldn't be an issue, however editing should
>> not be allowed due to high volume of known abuse from that vector.
>>
>>> On Mon, Jun 5, 2017 at 1:43 PM, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Editing may be a tricky one, particularly on en:wp, which has found
>>> Tor exit points to overwhelmingly be fountains of garbage, and
>>> automatically blocks them.
>>>
>>>
>>> - d.
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 5 June 2017 at 18:30, David Cuenca Tudela <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> I think that's an excellent idea and very much aligned with our
>>> commitment
>>>> to provide free information also for those who are living under
>>> unfavorable
>>>> conditions.
>>>>
>>>> I personally endorse it.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks Cristian for suggesting it.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Micru
>>>>
>>>>> On Jun 5, 2017 19:11, "Cristian Consonni" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> I have written a proposal about setting up an onion (hidden) service
>> to
>>>>> serve Wikipedia over Tor:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IdeaLab/A_Tor_
>>>>> Onion_Service_for_Wikipedia
>>>>>
>>>>> I was thinking about this and I also discovered that the Internet
>>>>> Archive is experimenting with a very similar idea:
>>>>> www.hackerfactor.com/blog/index.php?/archives/750-
>>>>> Freedom-of-Information.html
>>>>>
>>>>> I would like to have some feedback on this, I am also in contact with
>>>>> the author of the aforementioned proxy which could be able to give
>> some
>>>>> help in setting it up.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cristian
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
>>>>> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
>>>>> wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>>>> New messages to: [hidden email]
>>>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>> ,
>>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
>>> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

Todd Allen
 With the recent ruling about ISPs being allowed to collect and sell user
data in the US, we're at "highly exceptional circumstances". Good Internet
citizens allow anonymous participation. We can soft block them, but surely
we can revert vandals and block their accounts.

If we can't even manage that, we have problems far deeper than Tor.

Todd

On Jun 5, 2017 1:48 PM, "Yongmin H." <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Nope.
>
> Tor users needs `ip block exempt` or `global ip block exempt` to edit.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IP_block_exemption seem to say so
> too. ("In highly exceptional circumstances, an editor may be permitted to
> edit anonymously, via Tor or another anonymizing proxy.")
>
> --
> Yongmin
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> https://wp.revi.blog
> Please note that this address is list-only address and any non-mailing
> list mails will be treated as spam.
> Please use https://encrypt.to/0x947f156f16250de39788c3c35b625da5beff197a.
>
> 2017. 6. 6. 03:53 Gabriel Thullen <[hidden email]> 작성:
>
> > I imagine registered users could edit through TOR. That is how it works
> > with my school IP: anonymous edits are blocked, account creation as well,
> > but you can sign in an edit.
> >
> >> On Mon, Jun 5, 2017 at 7:47 PM, John <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>
> >> enabling read access via Tor shouldn't be an issue, however editing
> should
> >> not be allowed due to high volume of known abuse from that vector.
> >>
> >>> On Mon, Jun 5, 2017 at 1:43 PM, David Gerard <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Editing may be a tricky one, particularly on en:wp, which has found
> >>> Tor exit points to overwhelmingly be fountains of garbage, and
> >>> automatically blocks them.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> - d.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> On 5 June 2017 at 18:30, David Cuenca Tudela <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >>>> I think that's an excellent idea and very much aligned with our
> >>> commitment
> >>>> to provide free information also for those who are living under
> >>> unfavorable
> >>>> conditions.
> >>>>
> >>>> I personally endorse it.
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks Cristian for suggesting it.
> >>>>
> >>>> Regards,
> >>>> Micru
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Jun 5, 2017 19:11, "Cristian Consonni" <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hi,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I have written a proposal about setting up an onion (hidden) service
> >> to
> >>>>> serve Wikipedia over Tor:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IdeaLab/A_Tor_
> >>>>> Onion_Service_for_Wikipedia
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I was thinking about this and I also discovered that the Internet
> >>>>> Archive is experimenting with a very similar idea:
> >>>>> www.hackerfactor.com/blog/index.php?/archives/750-
> >>>>> Freedom-of-Information.html
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I would like to have some feedback on this, I am also in contact with
> >>>>> the author of the aforementioned proxy which could be able to give
> >> some
> >>>>> help in setting it up.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thank you.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Cristian
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> >>>>> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> >>>>> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >>>>> New messages to: [hidden email]
> >>>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
> mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> >> ,
> >>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

Cristian Consonni-3
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2
On 05/06/2017 19:43, David Gerard wrote:
> Editing may be a tricky one, particularly on en:wp, which has found
> Tor exit points to overwhelmingly be fountains of garbage, and
> automatically blocks them.

On 05/06/2017 19:47, John wrote:
> enabling read access via Tor shouldn't be an issue, however editing should
> not be allowed due to high volume of known abuse from that vector.

On 05/06/2017 21:01, John wrote:
> Im not going to violate BEANS, but even allowing accounts to edit without
> further hurdles isn't going to work. Because of the anonymity that tor
> provides its fairly easy to cause widespread issues. When the vandals
start
> actually using tactics the flood gates of TOR will cause massive issues
> cross wiki that requires steward level intervention on a regular basis.

Allow me to reiterate that I am not proposing any change to the current
policies regarding editing via Tor or other open proxies. Even with an
onion service, anonymous editing will still be blocked and registered
users will still need to apply for IP block exemption before being able
to edit.

I have read several discussions on the topic (going back to 2006) and
what I have understood from those is that the biggest issue with editing
via Tor is sockpuppeting. Vandals and spammer could be handled (and
blocked), sockpuppets would be much harder to identify. The problem is
hard because it solving it requires to have a way to identify that two
accounts with different IPs are related to the same real person without
at the same time destroying the anonymity provided by Tor. There has
been research on the topic (see, for example, Nymble[1]) but at the very
least it would require some additional technical setup and testing.

With this proposal I am not trying to solve that problem.

I am just pointing out that:
1. having an onion service would increase the privacy of our readers and
the (very few) people who are already allowed to edit via Tor.
2. is harder to block access to an onion service than to wikipedia.org
(you basically need to block all accesses to Tor, but there are ways to
circumvent that, too[2]).
3. supporting privacy-enhancing technology is good and people may need
it or maybe they will start using Tor more.

As it stands now, the biggest impact of this project (if it is
successful) would be on operations and analytics.

Cristian

[1]: https://cgi.soic.indiana.edu/~kapadia/nymble/overview.php
[2]: https://www.torproject.org/docs/pluggable-transports

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

Gabriel Thullen
I agree that sockpuppets are a real problem, but they manage fine right now
without going through Tor. There are quite a few ways to connect up using
different IPs as it is now, so the real problem remains: the sockpuppeteers
themselves.

Gabe

On Mon, Jun 5, 2017 at 10:20 PM, Cristian Consonni <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> On 05/06/2017 19:43, David Gerard wrote:
> > Editing may be a tricky one, particularly on en:wp, which has found
> > Tor exit points to overwhelmingly be fountains of garbage, and
> > automatically blocks them.
>
> On 05/06/2017 19:47, John wrote:
> > enabling read access via Tor shouldn't be an issue, however editing
> should
> > not be allowed due to high volume of known abuse from that vector.
>
> On 05/06/2017 21:01, John wrote:
> > Im not going to violate BEANS, but even allowing accounts to edit without
> > further hurdles isn't going to work. Because of the anonymity that tor
> > provides its fairly easy to cause widespread issues. When the vandals
> start
> > actually using tactics the flood gates of TOR will cause massive issues
> > cross wiki that requires steward level intervention on a regular basis.
>
> Allow me to reiterate that I am not proposing any change to the current
> policies regarding editing via Tor or other open proxies. Even with an
> onion service, anonymous editing will still be blocked and registered
> users will still need to apply for IP block exemption before being able
> to edit.
>
> I have read several discussions on the topic (going back to 2006) and
> what I have understood from those is that the biggest issue with editing
> via Tor is sockpuppeting. Vandals and spammer could be handled (and
> blocked), sockpuppets would be much harder to identify. The problem is
> hard because it solving it requires to have a way to identify that two
> accounts with different IPs are related to the same real person without
> at the same time destroying the anonymity provided by Tor. There has
> been research on the topic (see, for example, Nymble[1]) but at the very
> least it would require some additional technical setup and testing.
>
> With this proposal I am not trying to solve that problem.
>
> I am just pointing out that:
> 1. having an onion service would increase the privacy of our readers and
> the (very few) people who are already allowed to edit via Tor.
> 2. is harder to block access to an onion service than to wikipedia.org
> (you basically need to block all accesses to Tor, but there are ways to
> circumvent that, too[2]).
> 3. supporting privacy-enhancing technology is good and people may need
> it or maybe they will start using Tor more.
>
> As it stands now, the biggest impact of this project (if it is
> successful) would be on operations and analytics.
>
> Cristian
>
> [1]: https://cgi.soic.indiana.edu/~kapadia/nymble/overview.php
> [2]: https://www.torproject.org/docs/pluggable-transports
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

Cristian Consonni-3
In reply to this post by Todd Allen
On 05/06/2017 22:19, Todd Allen wrote:
>  With the recent ruling about ISPs being allowed to collect and sell user
> data in the US, we're at "highly exceptional circumstances". Good Internet
> citizens allow anonymous participation. We can soft block them, but surely
> we can revert vandals and block their accounts.
>
> If we can't even manage that, we have problems far deeper than Tor.

On 05/06/2017 22:34, Gabriel Thullen wrote:
> I agree that sockpuppets are a real problem, but they manage fine
right now
> without going through Tor. There are quite a few ways to connect up using
> different IPs as it is now, so the real problem remains: the
sockpuppeteers
> themselves.

I understand your point of view and I am sympathetic to it. I also would
like to find a solution to this problem right now, but what I have seen
reading the past discussions is that in the last 10+ years our community
has not been able to find a shared, workable proposal for allowing
editing over Tor for everybody. In the end, I trust the opinion of those
who have participated in the past discussions (with many very
experienced users participating in them) to be better informed than
myself on the topic of fighting sockpuppeteers, vandals and spammers.

At the same time, what I am proposing is dealing with a single problem
at a time, and also a different thing. An onion service would be good
regardless of the fact that it can be used just for reading or for
reading and writing.

To the best of my knowledge, the current proposal shouldn't cause any
disruption to the projects with our current policies (and, please, you
are invited point out any issues you may see with it).

Also, if we see that this service is used then we may have an additional
data point to reason about the opportunity of allowing editing over Tor.
In other words, if we have many readers maybe we could have some
editors, too, and it would be more justified to put some resources
towards trying to solve this much harder problem.

Cristian



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

Trillium Corsage
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2
David Gerard, you and "John" go on about how horrible the English Wikipedia edits from Tor are. Can you give a couple examples (and quote them) just so we have a little basis to believe that no Tor editor was ever good, and refute the notion that the blocking of Tor IPs that haven't done anything bad is done by administrative hall monitors with too much time on their hands for no good reason?

I am grateful though that John pledges solemnly to observe WP:BEANS.

Trillium Corsage


05.06.2017, 18:44, "David Gerard" <[hidden email]>:

> Editing may be a tricky one, particularly on en:wp, which has found
> Tor exit points to overwhelmingly be fountains of garbage, and
> automatically blocks them.
>
> - d.
>
> On 5 June 2017 at 18:30, David Cuenca Tudela <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>  I think that's an excellent idea and very much aligned with our commitment
>>  to provide free information also for those who are living under unfavorable
>>  conditions.
>>
>>  I personally endorse it.
>>
>>  Thanks Cristian for suggesting it.
>>
>>  Regards,
>>  Micru
>>
>>  On Jun 5, 2017 19:11, "Cristian Consonni" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>>  Hi,
>>>
>>>  I have written a proposal about setting up an onion (hidden) service to
>>>  serve Wikipedia over Tor:
>>>
>>>  https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IdeaLab/A_Tor_
>>>  Onion_Service_for_Wikipedia
>>>
>>>  I was thinking about this and I also discovered that the Internet
>>>  Archive is experimenting with a very similar idea:
>>>  www.hackerfactor.com/blog/index.php?/archives/750-
>>>  Freedom-of-Information.html
>>>
>>>  I would like to have some feedback on this, I am also in contact with
>>>  the author of the aforementioned proxy which could be able to give some
>>>  help in setting it up.
>>>
>>>  Thank you.
>>>
>>>  Cristian

<text clipped for brevity>

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

MZMcBride-2
In reply to this post by Cristian Consonni-3
Cristian Consonni wrote:
>I have read several discussions on the topic (going back to 2006) and
>what I have understood from those is that the biggest issue with editing
>via Tor is sockpuppeting.

This Phabricator comment you found seems pretty useful:
<https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T71333#728636>.

And Faidon posted in November 2014 about the establishment of a Tor relay:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2014-November/079392.html

How does your proposal interact (if at all) with the existing Tor relay
set up in late 2014?

It's unclear to me whether "Tor onion service" in this context is
equivalent to a Tor exit node. I'm fairly sure setting up the latter has
been discussed previously on wikimedia-l and/or wikitech-l.

MZMcBride



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

Risker
As far as I can tell (and from comments made in the past by actual Tor
users), there is no problem whatsoever for Tor users to read Wikipedia
while using Tor.  Editing is a completely different situation - and well it
should be, given the pure unadulterated trash that tends to come in
whenever a Tor exit node is missed in the routine lockdowns.

I recognize the concerns about ISP tracking and what I assume most
Wikimedians would consider inappropriate use of their browsing
information.  I understand why more and more Wikimedians are electing to
use VPNs and other more secure methods of accessing the internet.  But VPNs
are also heavily abused - not just by socks, but by individuals who
consciously and intentionally disrupt projects - and thus more and more of
them are getting locked in "only accounts can edit" or even "only IPBE can
edit" mode - often on a global basis, not just one individual wiki.  It
occurs to me that we can probably be more liberal in handing out IPBE -
which covers both Tor users and VPN users.  It's not an idea situation,
since people have to establish their account history before anyone's going
to hand them IPBE, but it is probably better than nothing.  And yes, the
place to ask is at Global IPBE, because getting IPBE on only one project is
unhelpful if one also pitches in elsewhere (Wikidata, Commons, etc.).

Risker/Anne

On 5 June 2017 at 19:34, MZMcBride <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Cristian Consonni wrote:
> >I have read several discussions on the topic (going back to 2006) and
> >what I have understood from those is that the biggest issue with editing
> >via Tor is sockpuppeting.
>
> This Phabricator comment you found seems pretty useful:
> <https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T71333#728636>.
>
> And Faidon posted in November 2014 about the establishment of a Tor relay:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2014-November/079392.html
>
> How does your proposal interact (if at all) with the existing Tor relay
> set up in late 2014?
>
> It's unclear to me whether "Tor onion service" in this context is
> equivalent to a Tor exit node. I'm fairly sure setting up the latter has
> been discussed previously on wikimedia-l and/or wikitech-l.
>
> MZMcBride
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
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> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

Vi to
By the way a certain degree of accountability is needed.

There cannot be any privacy for "wikingers" or people bringing cyberbulling
to wiki.

Vito

2017-06-06 2:10 GMT+02:00 Risker <[hidden email]>:

> As far as I can tell (and from comments made in the past by actual Tor
> users), there is no problem whatsoever for Tor users to read Wikipedia
> while using Tor.  Editing is a completely different situation - and well it
> should be, given the pure unadulterated trash that tends to come in
> whenever a Tor exit node is missed in the routine lockdowns.
>
> I recognize the concerns about ISP tracking and what I assume most
> Wikimedians would consider inappropriate use of their browsing
> information.  I understand why more and more Wikimedians are electing to
> use VPNs and other more secure methods of accessing the internet.  But VPNs
> are also heavily abused - not just by socks, but by individuals who
> consciously and intentionally disrupt projects - and thus more and more of
> them are getting locked in "only accounts can edit" or even "only IPBE can
> edit" mode - often on a global basis, not just one individual wiki.  It
> occurs to me that we can probably be more liberal in handing out IPBE -
> which covers both Tor users and VPN users.  It's not an idea situation,
> since people have to establish their account history before anyone's going
> to hand them IPBE, but it is probably better than nothing.  And yes, the
> place to ask is at Global IPBE, because getting IPBE on only one project is
> unhelpful if one also pitches in elsewhere (Wikidata, Commons, etc.).
>
> Risker/Anne
>
> On 5 June 2017 at 19:34, MZMcBride <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Cristian Consonni wrote:
> > >I have read several discussions on the topic (going back to 2006) and
> > >what I have understood from those is that the biggest issue with editing
> > >via Tor is sockpuppeting.
> >
> > This Phabricator comment you found seems pretty useful:
> > <https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T71333#728636>.
> >
> > And Faidon posted in November 2014 about the establishment of a Tor
> relay:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2014-
> November/079392.html
> >
> > How does your proposal interact (if at all) with the existing Tor relay
> > set up in late 2014?
> >
> > It's unclear to me whether "Tor onion service" in this context is
> > equivalent to a Tor exit node. I'm fairly sure setting up the latter has
> > been discussed previously on wikimedia-l and/or wikitech-l.
> >
> > MZMcBride
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

Cristian Consonni-3
In reply to this post by MZMcBride-2
On 06/06/2017 01:34, MZMcBride wrote:
> And Faidon posted in November 2014 about the establishment of a Tor relay:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2014-November/079392.html

Thanks for the pointer, I did know that the WMF was operating a Tor
relay but I didn't recall where to find the details.

> How does your proposal interact (if at all) with the existing Tor relay
> set up in late 2014?

Relays (both middle relays or exit relays) and hidden services are
separate parts of the Tor network, so I would say that this project does
not intersect with the existing relays.

> It's unclear to me whether "Tor onion service" in this context is
> equivalent to a Tor exit node. I'm fairly sure setting up the latter has
> been discussed previously on wikimedia-l and/or wikitech-l.

Can you point me towards this discussion? I wasn't able to find any
reference to that.

In any case, an exit node and a hidden service are very different things.

Exit nodes are tor relays from where the traffic going to an internet
website (on the "clearnet") emerges from the Tor network to the outside.
They are more problematic to manage then non-exit relays because when
somebody uses the Tor network for nefarious purposes such as spam the
target website will see that this traffic is coming from the exit node.

An onion/hidden service is a website that is served only by the Tor
network. See for example this proxy of the Internet Archive:
http://archivecrfip2lpi.onion/
(you need to use the Tor Browser Bundle from https://torproject.org to
be able to visit that address)

I put a simplified explanation on how Tor works and how a hidden service
work on the proposal page[1], and a more detailed explanation of the
difference between an exit node and an onion service[2].

Cristian

[1]:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IdeaLab/A_Tor_Onion_Service_for_Wikipedia
[2]:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IdeaLab/A_Tor_Onion_Service_for_Wikipedia#What_is_the_difference_between_an_exit_node_and_a_onion.2Fhidden_service.3F

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

Cristian Consonni-3
In reply to this post by Risker
On 06/06/2017 02:10, Risker wrote:
> As far as I can tell (and from comments made in the past by actual Tor
> users), there is no problem whatsoever for Tor users to read Wikipedia
> while using Tor.

Let me put it this way, I am sure that the WMF will always do its best
to protect the privacy of our readers and editors. Alas, I am much more
concerned by third parties trying to snoop on our users. We also know
that this kind of surveillance happened and that's also why the WMF is
currently engaged in a lawsuit against the NSA.

Using Tor to visit (i.e. read) wikipedia.org provides additional privacy
and users can also circumvent blocks in their country, if necessary.
Having an onion service gives similar benefits.

Furthermore, I think it is very important that major Internet websites
provide themselves as an onion service. Even Facebook did it (at
https://www.facebookcorewwwi.onion/) and there are good privacy and
censorship-circumventing reasons for this[1]. I think that the least
difference between the "privacy enhanced" (aka dark) net and the regular
internet there is the more people will consider to use Tor. I think this
is a good thing.

Frankly, I hate it when I hear Tor and onion services nominated by
newspapers and newscasts only when talking about illegal activities.
Then I remind myself that Snowden used Tor extensively and without it we
probably would have not know about the NSA mass surveillance.

I think that having an onion service may be useful, but I also think
that we could have it just because we should.

>  Editing is a completely different situation - and well it
> should be, given the pure unadulterated trash that tends to come in
> whenever a Tor exit node is missed in the routine lockdowns.

I understand the difficulties. Again, I don't think we should conflate
the idea of providing Wikipedia as an onion service with the issues
related to editing Wikipedia over Tor or open proxies.


[1]:
https://blog.torproject.org/blog/facebook-hidden-services-and-https-certs

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

Alec Muffett
If it helps, I built an betatest onion for Wikipedia and all(?) the
Wikimedia Foundation websites using EOTK* a few months ago, and documented
the build process at:

https://github.com/alecmuffett/eotk/blob/master/docs.d/RUNBOOK.md

A basic test onion takes about 5..10 minutes to set up on Ubuntu or
OSX/Homebrew.

A scalable full production loadbalanced deployment on some kind of cloud or
server(s) should take a day or two, plus time to buy an Onion SSL
Certificate where appropriate.

- alec



* Enterprise Onion Toolkit
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's set up a Tor onion service for Wikipedia

Andrea Zanni-2
In reply to this post by Cristian Consonni-3
Quick update,
as this story went on Motherboard
https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/wikipedians-want-to-to-put-wikipedia-on-the-dark-web
;-)

Aubrey


On Tue, Jun 6, 2017 at 12:22 PM, Cristian Consonni <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> On 06/06/2017 02:10, Risker wrote:
> > As far as I can tell (and from comments made in the past by actual Tor
> > users), there is no problem whatsoever for Tor users to read Wikipedia
> > while using Tor.
>
> Let me put it this way, I am sure that the WMF will always do its best
> to protect the privacy of our readers and editors. Alas, I am much more
> concerned by third parties trying to snoop on our users. We also know
> that this kind of surveillance happened and that's also why the WMF is
> currently engaged in a lawsuit against the NSA.
>
> Using Tor to visit (i.e. read) wikipedia.org provides additional privacy
> and users can also circumvent blocks in their country, if necessary.
> Having an onion service gives similar benefits.
>
> Furthermore, I think it is very important that major Internet websites
> provide themselves as an onion service. Even Facebook did it (at
> https://www.facebookcorewwwi.onion/) and there are good privacy and
> censorship-circumventing reasons for this[1]. I think that the least
> difference between the "privacy enhanced" (aka dark) net and the regular
> internet there is the more people will consider to use Tor. I think this
> is a good thing.
>
> Frankly, I hate it when I hear Tor and onion services nominated by
> newspapers and newscasts only when talking about illegal activities.
> Then I remind myself that Snowden used Tor extensively and without it we
> probably would have not know about the NSA mass surveillance.
>
> I think that having an onion service may be useful, but I also think
> that we could have it just because we should.
>
> >  Editing is a completely different situation - and well it
> > should be, given the pure unadulterated trash that tends to come in
> > whenever a Tor exit node is missed in the routine lockdowns.
>
> I understand the difficulties. Again, I don't think we should conflate
> the idea of providing Wikipedia as an onion service with the issues
> related to editing Wikipedia over Tor or open proxies.
>
>
> [1]:
> https://blog.torproject.org/blog/facebook-hidden-services-and-https-certs
>
> _______________________________________________
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> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
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>
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