[Wikimedia-l] Lets delete everything from commons (was The tragedy of Commons)

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[Wikimedia-l] Lets delete everything from commons (was The tragedy of Commons)

Itzik Edri
The story continues.

WMIL uploaded a letter from the Ministry of Justice, addressed to the
Commons Community, which confirm that the government don't have interest on
this photos. And not surprising, he was deleted from Commoms by the same
person who deleted all the photos so far:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ministry_of_Justice%27s_of_Israel_response_to_copyrights_issue.jpg

Hard not to feel that the reason to this massive deletions and this kind of
behavior does not cross the boundaries of URAA enforcement to probably more
personal views...

The original letter can be found on Hebrew Wikipedia:
https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%A7%D7%95%D7%91%D7%A5:%D7%AA%D7%92%D7%95%D7%91%D7%AA_%D7%9E%D7%A9%D7%A8%D7%93_%D7%94%D7%9E%D7%A9%D7%A4%D7%98%D7%99%D7%9D_%D7%91%D7%A2%D7%A0%D7%99%D7%99%D7%9F_%D7%96%D7%9B%D7%95%D7%99%D7%95%D7%AA_%D7%99%D7%95%D7%A6%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9D.jpg

Itzik

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ministry_of_Justice%27s_of_Israel_response_to_copyrights_issue.jpg


On Tue, Jun 17, 2014 at 2:34 AM, Yann Forget <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Some Commons contributors like to ask impossible requirements, and
> threaten to delete files if these are not met. We have now a case of
> famous pictures from the government of Israel and Israel Defense
> Forces.
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Matanya#Files_and_pages_that_were_deleted_by_User:Fastily_that_I_am_aware_of_them
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Beba_Idelson_Ada_Maimon1952.jpg
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Abba_Hushi_1956.jpg
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Aharon_Meskin_-_Ben_Gurion_-_Israel_Prize1960.jpg
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Avraham_Shlonsky_1952.jpg
>
> These are famous and valuable pictures, including two featured
> pictures on the Hebrew Wikipedia. These files have already been
> deleted and restored 3 times. When the URAA issue was not convincing
> enough, a new reson for deletion was advanced: that publication
> details were not given. Anyone with 2 bits of common sense can
> understand that these famous pictures were published soon after they
> were taken. There is no reasonable doubt about that. In addition,
> publication is not a requirement for being in the public domain in
> Israel.
>
> After I restored these images, I was threatem by LGA, who is a
> delete-only account:
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Administrators%27_noticeboard/User_problems#User:Yann
> There, more contributors argue on this issue.
>
> By asking absurb requirements about publication details, these
> contributors threaten the project as a whole. If insisting, it will
> lead people to upload pictures like these locally instead of Commons.
> Then the idea of a central repository for all Wikimedia projects is
> gone.
>
> Instead of looking for a reason to destroy these files, they should
> try to find a reason to keep them.
>
> Regards,
>
> Yann
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Lets delete everything from commons (was The tragedy of Commons)

Russavia
Itzik

On Sun, Jun 22, 2014 at 3:30 PM, Itzik Edri <[hidden email]> wrote:
> The story continues.
>
> WMIL uploaded a letter from the Ministry of Justice, addressed to the
> Commons Community, which confirm that the government don't have interest on
> this photos. And not surprising, he was deleted from Commoms by the same
> person who deleted all the photos so far:
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ministry_of_Justice%27s_of_Israel_response_to_copyrights_issue.jpg

The file was deleted because Hanay uploaded it as a self-authored
work. This is obviously not the case, so the deletion is valid. Please
refer to https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:SCOPE and
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:L

If Israeli law has an exemption for government works, then perhaps we
can look at restoring it.

It saddens me that I am having to say this to the Chairman of
Wikimedia Israel, because it truly seems to me that you don't know how
Commons operates and what our mission is.

Cheers

Russavia

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Lets delete everything from commons (was The tragedy of Commons)

Jane Darnell
In reply to this post by Itzik Edri
Well I am not an admin, but as on all other projects, you must play by the
rules. I noticed the deletion notice for your letter claimed it was a
"derivative work", implying that the file was uploaded as artwork. It
either included a logo letterhead that has not previously been uploaded
(see [1]) or it needed the PD-text license (see [2]) instead of whatever
the default uploader slaps on (probably "own work").

[1]
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Logos_of_governments_and_government_agencies
[2] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:PD-text


On Sun, Jun 22, 2014 at 9:30 AM, Itzik Edri <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The story continues.
>
> WMIL uploaded a letter from the Ministry of Justice, addressed to the
> Commons Community, which confirm that the government don't have interest on
> this photos. And not surprising, he was deleted from Commoms by the same
> person who deleted all the photos so far:
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ministry_of_Justice%27s_of_Israel_response_to_copyrights_issue.jpg
>
> Hard not to feel that the reason to this massive deletions and this kind of
> behavior does not cross the boundaries of URAA enforcement to probably more
> personal views...
>
> The original letter can be found on Hebrew Wikipedia:
>
> https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%A7%D7%95%D7%91%D7%A5:%D7%AA%D7%92%D7%95%D7%91%D7%AA_%D7%9E%D7%A9%D7%A8%D7%93_%D7%94%D7%9E%D7%A9%D7%A4%D7%98%D7%99%D7%9D_%D7%91%D7%A2%D7%A0%D7%99%D7%99%D7%9F_%D7%96%D7%9B%D7%95%D7%99%D7%95%D7%AA_%D7%99%D7%95%D7%A6%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9D.jpg
>
> Itzik
>
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ministry_of_Justice%27s_of_Israel_response_to_copyrights_issue.jpg
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 17, 2014 at 2:34 AM, Yann Forget <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > Some Commons contributors like to ask impossible requirements, and
> > threaten to delete files if these are not met. We have now a case of
> > famous pictures from the government of Israel and Israel Defense
> > Forces.
> >
> >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Matanya#Files_and_pages_that_were_deleted_by_User:Fastily_that_I_am_aware_of_them
> >
> >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Beba_Idelson_Ada_Maimon1952.jpg
> >
> >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Abba_Hushi_1956.jpg
> >
> >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Aharon_Meskin_-_Ben_Gurion_-_Israel_Prize1960.jpg
> >
> >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Avraham_Shlonsky_1952.jpg
> >
> > These are famous and valuable pictures, including two featured
> > pictures on the Hebrew Wikipedia. These files have already been
> > deleted and restored 3 times. When the URAA issue was not convincing
> > enough, a new reson for deletion was advanced: that publication
> > details were not given. Anyone with 2 bits of common sense can
> > understand that these famous pictures were published soon after they
> > were taken. There is no reasonable doubt about that. In addition,
> > publication is not a requirement for being in the public domain in
> > Israel.
> >
> > After I restored these images, I was threatem by LGA, who is a
> > delete-only account:
> >
> >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Administrators%27_noticeboard/User_problems#User:Yann
> > There, more contributors argue on this issue.
> >
> > By asking absurb requirements about publication details, these
> > contributors threaten the project as a whole. If insisting, it will
> > lead people to upload pictures like these locally instead of Commons.
> > Then the idea of a central repository for all Wikimedia projects is
> > gone.
> >
> > Instead of looking for a reason to destroy these files, they should
> > try to find a reason to keep them.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Yann
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Lets delete everything from commons (was The tragedy of Commons)

Tomasz Ganicz
Well..

Actually, this is the formal letter from Israeli government official.
So it is formal, governmental document. I don't know the Israeli law,
but if Israel has a law which excludes official state documents from
copyright this is obviously in public domain. The logo on top of the
letter is an official emblem of Israel. See:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_arms_of_Israel_%28Alternative%29.svg

According to this "logic" COA of Israel should be deleted as well...


2014-06-22 10:03 GMT+02:00 Jane Darnell <[hidden email]>:

> Well I am not an admin, but as on all other projects, you must play by the
> rules. I noticed the deletion notice for your letter claimed it was a
> "derivative work", implying that the file was uploaded as artwork. It
> either included a logo letterhead that has not previously been uploaded
> (see [1]) or it needed the PD-text license (see [2]) instead of whatever
> the default uploader slaps on (probably "own work").
>
> [1]
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Logos_of_governments_and_government_agencies
> [2] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:PD-text
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 22, 2014 at 9:30 AM, Itzik Edri <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> The story continues.
>>
>> WMIL uploaded a letter from the Ministry of Justice, addressed to the
>> Commons Community, which confirm that the government don't have interest on
>> this photos. And not surprising, he was deleted from Commoms by the same
>> person who deleted all the photos so far:
>>
>> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ministry_of_Justice%27s_of_Israel_response_to_copyrights_issue.jpg
>>
>> Hard not to feel that the reason to this massive deletions and this kind of
>> behavior does not cross the boundaries of URAA enforcement to probably more
>> personal views...
>>
>> The original letter can be found on Hebrew Wikipedia:
>>
>> https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%A7%D7%95%D7%91%D7%A5:%D7%AA%D7%92%D7%95%D7%91%D7%AA_%D7%9E%D7%A9%D7%A8%D7%93_%D7%94%D7%9E%D7%A9%D7%A4%D7%98%D7%99%D7%9D_%D7%91%D7%A2%D7%A0%D7%99%D7%99%D7%9F_%D7%96%D7%9B%D7%95%D7%99%D7%95%D7%AA_%D7%99%D7%95%D7%A6%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9D.jpg
>>
>> Itzik
>>
>>
>> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ministry_of_Justice%27s_of_Israel_response_to_copyrights_issue.jpg
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 17, 2014 at 2:34 AM, Yann Forget <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > Some Commons contributors like to ask impossible requirements, and
>> > threaten to delete files if these are not met. We have now a case of
>> > famous pictures from the government of Israel and Israel Defense
>> > Forces.
>> >
>> >
>> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Matanya#Files_and_pages_that_were_deleted_by_User:Fastily_that_I_am_aware_of_them
>> >
>> >
>> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Beba_Idelson_Ada_Maimon1952.jpg
>> >
>> >
>> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Abba_Hushi_1956.jpg
>> >
>> >
>> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Aharon_Meskin_-_Ben_Gurion_-_Israel_Prize1960.jpg
>> >
>> >
>> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Avraham_Shlonsky_1952.jpg
>> >
>> > These are famous and valuable pictures, including two featured
>> > pictures on the Hebrew Wikipedia. These files have already been
>> > deleted and restored 3 times. When the URAA issue was not convincing
>> > enough, a new reson for deletion was advanced: that publication
>> > details were not given. Anyone with 2 bits of common sense can
>> > understand that these famous pictures were published soon after they
>> > were taken. There is no reasonable doubt about that. In addition,
>> > publication is not a requirement for being in the public domain in
>> > Israel.
>> >
>> > After I restored these images, I was threatem by LGA, who is a
>> > delete-only account:
>> >
>> >
>> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Administrators%27_noticeboard/User_problems#User:Yann
>> > There, more contributors argue on this issue.
>> >
>> > By asking absurb requirements about publication details, these
>> > contributors threaten the project as a whole. If insisting, it will
>> > lead people to upload pictures like these locally instead of Commons.
>> > Then the idea of a central repository for all Wikimedia projects is
>> > gone.
>> >
>> > Instead of looking for a reason to destroy these files, they should
>> > try to find a reason to keep them.
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> >
>> > Yann
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>> > [hidden email]
>> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>> [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>



--
Tomek "Polimerek" Ganicz
http://pl.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Polimerek
http://www.ganicz.pl/poli/
http://www.cbmm.lodz.pl/work.php?id=29&title=tomasz-ganicz

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Lets delete everything from commons (was The tragedy of Commons)

geni
In reply to this post by Itzik Edri
On 22 June 2014 08:30, Itzik Edri <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The story continues.
>
> WMIL uploaded a letter from the Ministry of Justice, addressed to the
> Commons Community, which confirm that the government don't have interest on
> this photos
>


No it doesn't. It simply restates how the law works within Israel. Which we
already know.

What we need is a statement that says that they regard the copyright
expiration on government works (private works are a secondary problem) to
be global.


--
geni
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Lets delete everything from commons (was The tragedy of Commons)

Craig Franklin
In reply to this post by Itzik Edri
Pardon me if this has already been covered, but as I understand it the
problem is not the legal status of the files in Israel, the problem is with
the legal status of the files in the United States, where the Israeli
Government may still have some copyright protections.  So while the
contents of the letter are nice, they don't address the problem.

It seems to me that rather than insisting that the files are permitted to
remain, a more fruitful avenue might be to use WMIL's contacts with the
Israeli Government to licence these images anywhere where copyright might
still exist under a very free licence like CC-0.  That way even if URAA or
some future copyright shenanigans places these images back under copyright,
they're usable by anyone.  This ought to satisfy even the most dogmatic
Commons admin that the images are indeed free.

Cheers,
Craig


On 22 June 2014 17:30, Itzik Edri <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The story continues.
>
> WMIL uploaded a letter from the Ministry of Justice, addressed to the
> Commons Community, which confirm that the government don't have interest on
> this photos. And not surprising, he was deleted from Commoms by the same
> person who deleted all the photos so far:
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ministry_of_Justice%27s_of_Israel_response_to_copyrights_issue.jpg
>
> Hard not to feel that the reason to this massive deletions and this kind of
> behavior does not cross the boundaries of URAA enforcement to probably more
> personal views...
>
> The original letter can be found on Hebrew Wikipedia:
>
> https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%A7%D7%95%D7%91%D7%A5:%D7%AA%D7%92%D7%95%D7%91%D7%AA_%D7%9E%D7%A9%D7%A8%D7%93_%D7%94%D7%9E%D7%A9%D7%A4%D7%98%D7%99%D7%9D_%D7%91%D7%A2%D7%A0%D7%99%D7%99%D7%9F_%D7%96%D7%9B%D7%95%D7%99%D7%95%D7%AA_%D7%99%D7%95%D7%A6%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9D.jpg
>
> Itzik
>
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ministry_of_Justice%27s_of_Israel_response_to_copyrights_issue.jpg
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 17, 2014 at 2:34 AM, Yann Forget <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > Some Commons contributors like to ask impossible requirements, and
> > threaten to delete files if these are not met. We have now a case of
> > famous pictures from the government of Israel and Israel Defense
> > Forces.
> >
> >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Matanya#Files_and_pages_that_were_deleted_by_User:Fastily_that_I_am_aware_of_them
> >
> >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Beba_Idelson_Ada_Maimon1952.jpg
> >
> >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Abba_Hushi_1956.jpg
> >
> >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Aharon_Meskin_-_Ben_Gurion_-_Israel_Prize1960.jpg
> >
> >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Avraham_Shlonsky_1952.jpg
> >
> > These are famous and valuable pictures, including two featured
> > pictures on the Hebrew Wikipedia. These files have already been
> > deleted and restored 3 times. When the URAA issue was not convincing
> > enough, a new reson for deletion was advanced: that publication
> > details were not given. Anyone with 2 bits of common sense can
> > understand that these famous pictures were published soon after they
> > were taken. There is no reasonable doubt about that. In addition,
> > publication is not a requirement for being in the public domain in
> > Israel.
> >
> > After I restored these images, I was threatem by LGA, who is a
> > delete-only account:
> >
> >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Administrators%27_noticeboard/User_problems#User:Yann
> > There, more contributors argue on this issue.
> >
> > By asking absurb requirements about publication details, these
> > contributors threaten the project as a whole. If insisting, it will
> > lead people to upload pictures like these locally instead of Commons.
> > Then the idea of a central repository for all Wikimedia projects is
> > gone.
> >
> > Instead of looking for a reason to destroy these files, they should
> > try to find a reason to keep them.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Yann
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Lets delete everything from commons (was The tragedy of Commons)

Andre Engels
So you want them to have a letter "You are allowed to use these images that
you are allowed to use" but if the letter says that the reason that they're
allowed to use it is that they are allowed to use it, it is not valid.

Shouldn't we be welcoming free content rather than inventing far out
reasons to think why they maybe in some way are not free and thus delete
them?

Andre Engels



On Sun, Jun 22, 2014 at 11:56 AM, Craig Franklin <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Pardon me if this has already been covered, but as I understand it the
> problem is not the legal status of the files in Israel, the problem is with
> the legal status of the files in the United States, where the Israeli
> Government may still have some copyright protections.  So while the
> contents of the letter are nice, they don't address the problem.
>
> It seems to me that rather than insisting that the files are permitted to
> remain, a more fruitful avenue might be to use WMIL's contacts with the
> Israeli Government to licence these images anywhere where copyright might
> still exist under a very free licence like CC-0.  That way even if URAA or
> some future copyright shenanigans places these images back under copyright,
> they're usable by anyone.  This ought to satisfy even the most dogmatic
> Commons admin that the images are indeed free.
>
> Cheers,
> Craig
>
>
> On 22 June 2014 17:30, Itzik Edri <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > The story continues.
> >
> > WMIL uploaded a letter from the Ministry of Justice, addressed to the
> > Commons Community, which confirm that the government don't have interest
> on
> > this photos. And not surprising, he was deleted from Commoms by the same
> > person who deleted all the photos so far:
> >
> >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ministry_of_Justice%27s_of_Israel_response_to_copyrights_issue.jpg
> >
> > Hard not to feel that the reason to this massive deletions and this kind
> of
> > behavior does not cross the boundaries of URAA enforcement to probably
> more
> > personal views...
> >
> > The original letter can be found on Hebrew Wikipedia:
> >
> >
> https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%A7%D7%95%D7%91%D7%A5:%D7%AA%D7%92%D7%95%D7%91%D7%AA_%D7%9E%D7%A9%D7%A8%D7%93_%D7%94%D7%9E%D7%A9%D7%A4%D7%98%D7%99%D7%9D_%D7%91%D7%A2%D7%A0%D7%99%D7%99%D7%9F_%D7%96%D7%9B%D7%95%D7%99%D7%95%D7%AA_%D7%99%D7%95%D7%A6%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9D.jpg
> >
> > Itzik
> >
> >
> >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ministry_of_Justice%27s_of_Israel_response_to_copyrights_issue.jpg
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 17, 2014 at 2:34 AM, Yann Forget <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > Some Commons contributors like to ask impossible requirements, and
> > > threaten to delete files if these are not met. We have now a case of
> > > famous pictures from the government of Israel and Israel Defense
> > > Forces.
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Matanya#Files_and_pages_that_were_deleted_by_User:Fastily_that_I_am_aware_of_them
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Beba_Idelson_Ada_Maimon1952.jpg
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Abba_Hushi_1956.jpg
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Aharon_Meskin_-_Ben_Gurion_-_Israel_Prize1960.jpg
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Avraham_Shlonsky_1952.jpg
> > >
> > > These are famous and valuable pictures, including two featured
> > > pictures on the Hebrew Wikipedia. These files have already been
> > > deleted and restored 3 times. When the URAA issue was not convincing
> > > enough, a new reson for deletion was advanced: that publication
> > > details were not given. Anyone with 2 bits of common sense can
> > > understand that these famous pictures were published soon after they
> > > were taken. There is no reasonable doubt about that. In addition,
> > > publication is not a requirement for being in the public domain in
> > > Israel.
> > >
> > > After I restored these images, I was threatem by LGA, who is a
> > > delete-only account:
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Administrators%27_noticeboard/User_problems#User:Yann
> > > There, more contributors argue on this issue.
> > >
> > > By asking absurb requirements about publication details, these
> > > contributors threaten the project as a whole. If insisting, it will
> > > lead people to upload pictures like these locally instead of Commons.
> > > Then the idea of a central repository for all Wikimedia projects is
> > > gone.
> > >
> > > Instead of looking for a reason to destroy these files, they should
> > > try to find a reason to keep them.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Yann
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Lets delete everything from commons (was The tragedy of Commons)

Russavia
In reply to this post by Craig Franklin
Craig, et al

On Sun, Jun 22, 2014 at 5:56 PM, Craig Franklin
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Pardon me if this has already been covered, but as I understand it the
> problem is not the legal status of the files in Israel, the problem is with
> the legal status of the files in the United States, where the Israeli
> Government may still have some copyright protections.

You are misunderstanding completely the issue. There is no evidence
that Israel has a PD exemption for such government works, as we see
for say, Russia,[1] which allows for letters such as this to exist on
Commons.[2]

> It seems to me that rather than insisting that the files are permitted to
> remain, a more fruitful avenue might be to use WMIL's contacts with the
> Israeli Government to licence these images anywhere where copyright might
> still exist under a very free licence like CC-0.  That way even if URAA or
> some future copyright shenanigans places these images back under copyright,
> they're usable by anyone.  This ought to satisfy even the most dogmatic
> Commons admin that the images are indeed free.

I have told someone that what needs to occur is for the GPO to release
their claims over copyright worldwide in relation to URAA. The reason
for this, is the same reason that the Israeli Government would NEVER
CC-0 licence their materials -- because it opens them up to parody,
satire and other uses that they might not agree with -- and we need to
protect re-users who wish to use materials for such purposes. That's
the same reason that the Australian Commonwealth Parliament refuses to
CC photos of MPs, in case you weren't aware.

Cheers

Russavia

[1] http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:PD-RU-exempt
[2] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Russian_letter_to_FIFA.jpg

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Lets delete everything from commons (was The tragedy of Commons)

Tomasz Ganicz
In reply to this post by Andre Engels
It is a bit crazy :-) The use to be copyright holder of these files is
Israeli goverment. But according to the goverment it does not claim
any copyrights as it clearly stated that the these files are not
copyrightable, and it is no longer copyright holder. One can have an
assumption that next Israeli government may change its mind. But the
government can change the mind even if it releases these pictures
under CC-0 waiver. In most jurisdictions the licenses can be revoked
and the non-revocable clauses in CC and GNU/FAL licenses have no any
legal value.

I mean the absolute attitude of Commons towards copyright  freedom of
media hardly make any sense in most jurisdictions. It ignores many
facts and is sticked to some others without clear reasons. This not an
absolute as in absolute terms there is no any single media about which
one can say it is free globally with 100% certainty, and also it is
not any practical attitude really preventing our re-users from legal
problems, as we mainly ignore non-copyright legal issues. This is
rather a derivative of long discussions on Commons which are subject
of group thinking syndrome, which made some arguments kind of dogma .



2014-06-22 12:07 GMT+02:00 Andre Engels <[hidden email]>:

> So you want them to have a letter "You are allowed to use these images that
> you are allowed to use" but if the letter says that the reason that they're
> allowed to use it is that they are allowed to use it, it is not valid.
>
> Shouldn't we be welcoming free content rather than inventing far out
> reasons to think why they maybe in some way are not free and thus delete
> them?
>
> Andre Engels
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 22, 2014 at 11:56 AM, Craig Franklin <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> Pardon me if this has already been covered, but as I understand it the
>> problem is not the legal status of the files in Israel, the problem is with
>> the legal status of the files in the United States, where the Israeli
>> Government may still have some copyright protections.  So while the
>> contents of the letter are nice, they don't address the problem.
>>
>> It seems to me that rather than insisting that the files are permitted to
>> remain, a more fruitful avenue might be to use WMIL's contacts with the
>> Israeli Government to licence these images anywhere where copyright might
>> still exist under a very free licence like CC-0.  That way even if URAA or
>> some future copyright shenanigans places these images back under copyright,
>> they're usable by anyone.  This ought to satisfy even the most dogmatic
>> Commons admin that the images are indeed free.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Craig
>>
>>
>> On 22 June 2014 17:30, Itzik Edri <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> > The story continues.
>> >
>> > WMIL uploaded a letter from the Ministry of Justice, addressed to the
>> > Commons Community, which confirm that the government don't have interest
>> on
>> > this photos. And not surprising, he was deleted from Commoms by the same
>> > person who deleted all the photos so far:
>> >
>> >
>> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ministry_of_Justice%27s_of_Israel_response_to_copyrights_issue.jpg
>> >
>> > Hard not to feel that the reason to this massive deletions and this kind
>> of
>> > behavior does not cross the boundaries of URAA enforcement to probably
>> more
>> > personal views...
>> >
>> > The original letter can be found on Hebrew Wikipedia:
>> >
>> >
>> https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%A7%D7%95%D7%91%D7%A5:%D7%AA%D7%92%D7%95%D7%91%D7%AA_%D7%9E%D7%A9%D7%A8%D7%93_%D7%94%D7%9E%D7%A9%D7%A4%D7%98%D7%99%D7%9D_%D7%91%D7%A2%D7%A0%D7%99%D7%99%D7%9F_%D7%96%D7%9B%D7%95%D7%99%D7%95%D7%AA_%D7%99%D7%95%D7%A6%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9D.jpg
>> >
>> > Itzik
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ministry_of_Justice%27s_of_Israel_response_to_copyrights_issue.jpg
>> >
>> >
>> > On Tue, Jun 17, 2014 at 2:34 AM, Yann Forget <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >
>> > > Hi,
>> > >
>> > > Some Commons contributors like to ask impossible requirements, and
>> > > threaten to delete files if these are not met. We have now a case of
>> > > famous pictures from the government of Israel and Israel Defense
>> > > Forces.
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Matanya#Files_and_pages_that_were_deleted_by_User:Fastily_that_I_am_aware_of_them
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Beba_Idelson_Ada_Maimon1952.jpg
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Abba_Hushi_1956.jpg
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Aharon_Meskin_-_Ben_Gurion_-_Israel_Prize1960.jpg
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Avraham_Shlonsky_1952.jpg
>> > >
>> > > These are famous and valuable pictures, including two featured
>> > > pictures on the Hebrew Wikipedia. These files have already been
>> > > deleted and restored 3 times. When the URAA issue was not convincing
>> > > enough, a new reson for deletion was advanced: that publication
>> > > details were not given. Anyone with 2 bits of common sense can
>> > > understand that these famous pictures were published soon after they
>> > > were taken. There is no reasonable doubt about that. In addition,
>> > > publication is not a requirement for being in the public domain in
>> > > Israel.
>> > >
>> > > After I restored these images, I was threatem by LGA, who is a
>> > > delete-only account:
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Administrators%27_noticeboard/User_problems#User:Yann
>> > > There, more contributors argue on this issue.
>> > >
>> > > By asking absurb requirements about publication details, these
>> > > contributors threaten the project as a whole. If insisting, it will
>> > > lead people to upload pictures like these locally instead of Commons.
>> > > Then the idea of a central repository for all Wikimedia projects is
>> > > gone.
>> > >
>> > > Instead of looking for a reason to destroy these files, they should
>> > > try to find a reason to keep them.
>> > >
>> > > Regards,
>> > >
>> > > Yann
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>> > > [hidden email]
>> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>> > [hidden email]
>> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>> [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> André Engels, [hidden email]
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http://www.ganicz.pl/poli/
http://www.cbmm.lodz.pl/work.php?id=29&title=tomasz-ganicz

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Lets delete everything from commons (was The tragedy of Commons)

Lodewijk
In reply to this post by Russavia
I'm uncertain why CC-0 would be more beneficial than a statement that the
government believes the photos to be in the public domain. The main
difference I see is that a release is active, which might be out of the
power of the civil servant, the statement is a matter of fact and thus
passive.

Maybe you would insist that the Israeli govenment issues a statement that
they will follow their own copyright law rather than the US copyright law?
Seems like an open door to me, to be honest. (yeah yeah, i know this is an
easy target for snarky anti-israel remarks - lets steer away from that here
please)

I can understand this to be an issue with private non-government works from
Israel, but I really don't see the point in government works that are
considered PD in the country where they originate.

Either way, we're not going to resolve this discussion here - but I do get
a better understanding of some of the frustration.

Lodewijk


2014-06-22 12:26 GMT+02:00 Russavia <[hidden email]>:

> Craig, et al
>
> On Sun, Jun 22, 2014 at 5:56 PM, Craig Franklin
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Pardon me if this has already been covered, but as I understand it the
> > problem is not the legal status of the files in Israel, the problem is
> with
> > the legal status of the files in the United States, where the Israeli
> > Government may still have some copyright protections.
>
> You are misunderstanding completely the issue. There is no evidence
> that Israel has a PD exemption for such government works, as we see
> for say, Russia,[1] which allows for letters such as this to exist on
> Commons.[2]
>
> > It seems to me that rather than insisting that the files are permitted to
> > remain, a more fruitful avenue might be to use WMIL's contacts with the
> > Israeli Government to licence these images anywhere where copyright might
> > still exist under a very free licence like CC-0.  That way even if URAA
> or
> > some future copyright shenanigans places these images back under
> copyright,
> > they're usable by anyone.  This ought to satisfy even the most dogmatic
> > Commons admin that the images are indeed free.
>
> I have told someone that what needs to occur is for the GPO to release
> their claims over copyright worldwide in relation to URAA. The reason
> for this, is the same reason that the Israeli Government would NEVER
> CC-0 licence their materials -- because it opens them up to parody,
> satire and other uses that they might not agree with -- and we need to
> protect re-users who wish to use materials for such purposes. That's
> the same reason that the Australian Commonwealth Parliament refuses to
> CC photos of MPs, in case you weren't aware.
>
> Cheers
>
> Russavia
>
> [1] http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:PD-RU-exempt
> [2] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Russian_letter_to_FIFA.jpg
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Lets delete everything from commons (was The tragedy of Commons)

Craig Franklin
In reply to this post by Russavia
Russavia,

I am aware that that is the issue (and I was talking about the original
problem images, not this letter).  I'm a bit confused though about the
parody/satire angle, my understanding is that a CC licence does not
extinguish things such as moral rights that are not related to copyright.
 Also, I do find it a bit odd that the Israeli Ministry of Justice would be
comfortable disclaiming any copyright to the image within Israel per their
letter, but would be uncomfortable licencing them in other jurisdictions
under a licence that does essentially the same thing.  We can but only ask,
and see what they say; if they say "no" for the reasons you outline then
nothing has been lost.  I do agree that the Australian Commonwealth is
behind the curve as well here, but in my experience and with some
honourable exceptions, most federal bureaucrats still conflate these issues
with the unrelated matter of FOI law.

But, I guess what I'm trying to get at, is that if these images *are*
useful, a more productive course of action than arguing about it on a
mailing list would probably be to identify what steps can be taken in good
faith to move them from a disputed copyright situation to a situation where
everyone is comfortable that there are no problems with re-use.  If all the
energy that had gone into these threads and the various tit-for-tat
nominations on Commons had gone into that instead, we'd probably already be
halfway there.

Cheers,
Craig




On 22 June 2014 20:26, Russavia <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Craig, et al
>
> On Sun, Jun 22, 2014 at 5:56 PM, Craig Franklin
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Pardon me if this has already been covered, but as I understand it the
> > problem is not the legal status of the files in Israel, the problem is
> with
> > the legal status of the files in the United States, where the Israeli
> > Government may still have some copyright protections.
>
> You are misunderstanding completely the issue. There is no evidence
> that Israel has a PD exemption for such government works, as we see
> for say, Russia,[1] which allows for letters such as this to exist on
> Commons.[2]
>
> > It seems to me that rather than insisting that the files are permitted to
> > remain, a more fruitful avenue might be to use WMIL's contacts with the
> > Israeli Government to licence these images anywhere where copyright might
> > still exist under a very free licence like CC-0.  That way even if URAA
> or
> > some future copyright shenanigans places these images back under
> copyright,
> > they're usable by anyone.  This ought to satisfy even the most dogmatic
> > Commons admin that the images are indeed free.
>
> I have told someone that what needs to occur is for the GPO to release
> their claims over copyright worldwide in relation to URAA. The reason
> for this, is the same reason that the Israeli Government would NEVER
> CC-0 licence their materials -- because it opens them up to parody,
> satire and other uses that they might not agree with -- and we need to
> protect re-users who wish to use materials for such purposes. That's
> the same reason that the Australian Commonwealth Parliament refuses to
> CC photos of MPs, in case you weren't aware.
>
> Cheers
>
> Russavia
>
> [1] http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:PD-RU-exempt
> [2] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Russian_letter_to_FIFA.jpg
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Lets delete everything from commons (was The tragedy of Commons)

Fæ
On 22 June 2014 12:08, Craig Franklin <[hidden email]> wrote:
...
> parody/satire angle, my understanding is that a CC licence does not
> extinguish things such as moral rights that are not related to copyright.

This is fundamentally misleading. Please refer to
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_rights_%28copyright_law%29

If you have not read up on IP law, or are confused about copyright
terms, I suggest having the discussion on-wiki rather than on an email
list, where corrections like this either get skipped, leading to later
readers thinking that these are factual statements, or we end up
repeating basic copyright law endlessly.

Thanks,
Fae
--
[hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Lets delete everything from commons (was The tragedy of Commons)

Jeevan Jose
https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%A7%D7%95%D7%91%D7%A5:%D7%AA%D7%92%D7%95%D7%91%D7%AA_%D7%9E%D7%A9%D7%A8%D7%93_%D7%94%D7%9E%D7%A9%D7%A4%D7%98%D7%99%D7%9D_%D7%91%D7%A2%D7%A0%D7%99%D7%99%D7%9F_%D7%96%D7%9B%D7%95%D7%99%D7%95%D7%AA_%D7%99%D7%95%D7%A6%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9D.jpg

Such a statement from GOI can't override US copyright law for all works
originated from Israel. (as Geni said above)

But one thing they can do. They can make a statement that they have no plan
to claim copyright for Govt works per URAA in USA. So all the works of
Israel will become PD in USA too when they become PD in Israel.

I think this is the opinin expressed by  Carl Lindberg at
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump/Copyright/Archive/2014/04#New_URAA_policy_and_the_rule_of_the_shorter_term

Jee


On Sun, Jun 22, 2014 at 4:49 PM, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 22 June 2014 12:08, Craig Franklin <[hidden email]> wrote:
> ...
> > parody/satire angle, my understanding is that a CC licence does not
> > extinguish things such as moral rights that are not related to copyright.
>
> This is fundamentally misleading. Please refer to
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_rights_%28copyright_law%29
>
> If you have not read up on IP law, or are confused about copyright
> terms, I suggest having the discussion on-wiki rather than on an email
> list, where corrections like this either get skipped, leading to later
> readers thinking that these are factual statements, or we end up
> repeating basic copyright law endlessly.
>
> Thanks,
> Fae
> --
> [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
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> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Lets delete everything from commons (was The tragedy of Commons)

Russavia
In reply to this post by Itzik Edri
Craig, et al

On Sun, Jun 22, 2014 at 7:08 PM, Craig Franklin <[hidden email]>
wrote:
> Russavia,

>
>  I'm a bit confused though about the
> parody/satire angle, my understanding is that a CC licence does not
> extinguish things such as moral rights that are not related to copyright.

Sorry, I should make myself more clear -- sometimes it's easy to forget
that people may not be thinking on the same level as oneself.

If an image is out of copyright in Israel, but still has copyright
protection in the US due to URA, lets say one was to parody/satirise that
work in the US, and let's say they sell that work for profit.

Whilst parody and satire are covered under the 1st amendment in the US, the
Israeli government could invoke the copyright protection in the US of that
work to stop its distribution. And it's an argument that would work.[1]

This is why it is required for the Israeli government to state clearly that
when an Israeli government work falls into the public domain it
relinquishes it's copyright over those works worldwide, and for this to
cover both past (required due to URAA), present and future cases
(preferable). If that doesn't occur, then Commons won't be able to host
those materials until they fall out of copyright in the US due to the
rejection of the loosening of the PRP policy, and by extension the URAA
RfC, on Commons.[2]

> But, I guess what I'm trying to get at, is that if these images *are*
> useful, a more productive course of action than arguing about it on a
> mailing list would probably be to identify what steps can be taken in good
> faith to move them from a disputed copyright situation to a situation
where
> everyone is comfortable that there are no problems with re-use.

On this point I agree entirely. WMIL now has an ally, the Ministry of
Education, I hope they use it to their advantage.

Cheers

Russavia

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama_%22Joker%22_poster
[2]
https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Commons:Review_of_Precautionary_principle&diff=127184893&oldid=126836923
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Lets delete everything from commons (was The tragedy of Commons)

Itzik Edri
In reply to this post by Jeevan Jose
With all the good faith, and even with the good connections of WMIL with
the Israeli government - lets don't forget this it is still, a government,
and it is not kind of "lets ask them and they will do it just because we
are Wikimedia Commons" issue. It was hard enough to explain them the
ridiculous situation we are facing right now. Don't forget It's took us 3
years to convince the government to release their public photos under
cc-nc, and it was a huge win and successful advocacy work for our movement
that never been done before.

I'm saying that in *my personal opinion* as Wikimedians, and not I'm
representing WMIL (which will continue FULLY to support the efforts on this
issue) or any other official role i'm holding: but to be honest, as the
situation looks right now in the commons - I don't think the government of
Israel, or any other government need to behave according to the commons
admins and their personal actions and opinions. From the government point
of view - the photos are available online, they are free, they are no
longer under copyright and they welcome everyone to uses it. Many people
are already using the photos on websites, Flickrs accounts and others
photos services - if the commons want to write his one rules
and interpretations, even when the WMF BOT and the WMF legal staff don't
fully support their steps - this is the commons and the movement problem to
handle - not the government that have many others issues to handle, as this
is not easy to reach and implement decision - and it rellevent to
every government in the world. They are not working for us.



On Sun, Jun 22, 2014 at 2:57 PM, Jeevan Jose <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%A7%D7%95%D7%91%D7%A5:%D7%AA%D7%92%D7%95%D7%91%D7%AA_%D7%9E%D7%A9%D7%A8%D7%93_%D7%94%D7%9E%D7%A9%D7%A4%D7%98%D7%99%D7%9D_%D7%91%D7%A2%D7%A0%D7%99%D7%99%D7%9F_%D7%96%D7%9B%D7%95%D7%99%D7%95%D7%AA_%D7%99%D7%95%D7%A6%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9D.jpg
>
> Such a statement from GOI can't override US copyright law for all works
> originated from Israel. (as Geni said above)
>
> But one thing they can do. They can make a statement that they have no plan
> to claim copyright for Govt works per URAA in USA. So all the works of
> Israel will become PD in USA too when they become PD in Israel.
>
> I think this is the opinin expressed by  Carl Lindberg at
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump/Copyright/Archive/2014/04#New_URAA_policy_and_the_rule_of_the_shorter_term
>
> Jee
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 22, 2014 at 4:49 PM, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On 22 June 2014 12:08, Craig Franklin <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > ...
> > > parody/satire angle, my understanding is that a CC licence does not
> > > extinguish things such as moral rights that are not related to
> copyright.
> >
> > This is fundamentally misleading. Please refer to
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_rights_%28copyright_law%29
> >
> > If you have not read up on IP law, or are confused about copyright
> > terms, I suggest having the discussion on-wiki rather than on an email
> > list, where corrections like this either get skipped, leading to later
> > readers thinking that these are factual statements, or we end up
> > repeating basic copyright law endlessly.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Fae
> > --
> > [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Lets delete everything from commons (was The tragedy of Commons)

???
On 22/06/2014 17:10, Itzik Edri wrote:
> Many people
> are already using the photos on websites, Flickrs accounts and others
> photos services
>

They had better not be using them on flickr accounts as flickr may
delete the entire account, for infringing the flickr and Y! T&C. The
issue being that flickr accounts should only contain material that the
photographer has taken themselves, there is some leeway for old family
photographs. Accounts that contain material that has been hoover up from
around the web tend to get deleted.

https://www.flickr.com/help/guidelines/

That includes material that is CC'd and also material where the photog
has given explicit permission. The issue is that on flickr there are
many places where a copyright notice is added that references the
account. So if Fred Bloggs uploads John Doe's photograph, it will
falsely be attributed as "Copyright Fred Bloggs" this attribution
violates all CC licenses.




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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Lets delete everything from commons (was The tragedy of Commons)

Yann Forget-3
In reply to this post by Tomasz Ganicz
Hi,

2014-06-22 16:00 GMT+05:30 Tomasz Ganicz <[hidden email]>:

> It is a bit crazy :-) The use to be copyright holder of these files is
> Israeli goverment. But according to the goverment it does not claim
> any copyrights as it clearly stated that the these files are not
> copyrightable, and it is no longer copyright holder. One can have an
> assumption that next Israeli government may change its mind. But the
> government can change the mind even if it releases these pictures
> under CC-0 waiver. In most jurisdictions the licenses can be revoked
> and the non-revocable clauses in CC and GNU/FAL licenses have no any
> legal value.
>
> I mean the absolute attitude of Commons towards copyright  freedom of
> media hardly make any sense in most jurisdictions. It ignores many
> facts and is sticked to some others without clear reasons. This not an
> absolute as in absolute terms there is no any single media about which
> one can say it is free globally with 100% certainty, and also it is
> not any practical attitude really preventing our re-users from legal
> problems, as we mainly ignore non-copyright legal issues. This is
> rather a derivative of long discussions on Commons which are subject
> of group thinking syndrome, which made some arguments kind of dogma .

Yes, good point, and that's exactly what I am saying all the time. ;oD
Nevertheless a number of admins and non-admins on Commons still insist
that every files on Commons should be free globally with 100%
certainty.
I think this is a poor understanding of how copyright law works.

> 2014-06-22 12:07 GMT+02:00 Andre Engels <[hidden email]>:
>> So you want them to have a letter "You are allowed to use these images that
>> you are allowed to use" but if the letter says that the reason that they're
>> allowed to use it is that they are allowed to use it, it is not valid.
>>
>> Shouldn't we be welcoming free content rather than inventing far out
>> reasons to think why they maybe in some way are not free and thus delete
>> them?

Yeah. I think we need to assume good faith, even from the Isreali
government. ;oD

Anyway, I think that the matter was handled very poorly by Russavia,
who started the deletion request.
As I said there, a request to the IDF could have been sent before, and
the DR open only later if a negative answer is received.

Regards,

Yann

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Lets delete everything from commons (was The tragedy of Commons)

rupert THURNER-2
In reply to this post by geni
that sounds like a rather simple statement to make. is there a reason the
isreali govermmemt does not want to do that, or is this somenthing which
follows autimatically?

Rupert
Am 22.06.2014 11:22 schrieb "geni" <[hidden email]>:

> On 22 June 2014 08:30, Itzik Edri <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > The story continues.
> >
> > WMIL uploaded a letter from the Ministry of Justice, addressed to the
> > Commons Community, which confirm that the government don't have interest
> on
> > this photos
> >
>
>
> No it doesn't. It simply restates how the law works within Israel. Which we
> already know.
>
> What we need is a statement that says that they regard the copyright
> expiration on government works (private works are a secondary problem) to
> be global.
>
>
> --
> geni
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Lets delete everything from commons (was The tragedy of Commons)

Tomasz Ganicz
In reply to this post by Russavia
2014-06-22 14:29 GMT+02:00 Russavia <[hidden email]>:

> Craig, et al
>
> On Sun, Jun 22, 2014 at 7:08 PM, Craig Franklin <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>> Russavia,
>
>>
>>  I'm a bit confused though about the
>> parody/satire angle, my understanding is that a CC licence does not
>> extinguish things such as moral rights that are not related to copyright.
>
> Sorry, I should make myself more clear -- sometimes it's easy to forget
> that people may not be thinking on the same level as oneself.
>
> If an image is out of copyright in Israel, but still has copyright
> protection in the US due to URA, lets say one was to parody/satirise that
> work in the US, and let's say they sell that work for profit.
>
> Whilst parody and satire are covered under the 1st amendment in the US, the
> Israeli government could invoke the copyright protection in the US of that
> work to stop its distribution. And it's an argument that would work.[1]
>

Please, tell me why do we care about such a very unprobable,
theoretical scenario, when we do not care about much more probable
scenario of re-using hundreds of thousands of pictures about which use
can be a life threat to many people in many countries? This is what a
I am calling a result of group dogma on Commons, which tells that we
must be totally unpractical strict with copyright issues and totally
ignore all other legal treats. I  mean for example that we do not care
about sexually explicit pictures which is crime to even watch in Saudi
Arabia and several other countries, and in US they cannot be legally
exposed to children? You can also be senteced to death if you use a
picture of Xi Jinping in offending way in China and even in Poland
when you use a picture of Bronisław Komorowski (our president) which
was released by his office under CC-BY-SA in offendig way, you can be
sentenced to 2 years in prision... And these are quite probable
scenarios, not like Israeli case which is in fact very theoretical one
with probability to happen less than 0.00001 % IMHO...



--
Tomek "Polimerek" Ganicz
http://pl.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Polimerek
http://www.ganicz.pl/poli/
http://www.cbmm.lodz.pl/work.php?id=29&title=tomasz-ganicz

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Lets delete everything from commons (was The tragedy of Commons)

geni
In reply to this post by rupert THURNER-2
On 23 June 2014 07:31, rupert THURNER <[hidden email]> wrote:

> that sounds like a rather simple statement to make. is there a reason the
> isreali govermmemt does not want to do that, or is this somenthing which
> follows autimatically?
>
>
As far as I'm aware they haven't been asked. Really all we need is an
Israeli  citizen to actual ask them.

--
geni
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