[Wikimedia-l] Looking back at the London Conference

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[Wikimedia-l] Looking back at the London Conference

Ziko van Dijk-2
Dear Council Members and everyone interested in the WCA,

On 16/17th February 2013 a number of Council Members visited the
London Conference I had proposed in mid January to talk about the way
of the WCA and to prepare the Wikimedia Conference in Milan. We are
happy that the London Conference did happen, and, in spite of the
debatable WMF board statement of 5th February, that two WMF board
members still agreed to join us.

Because in 2012/2013 the signals from the WMF were not very consistent
I tried to receive more clarity about the relationship between
Foundation and Association. This was only partially successful, but I
understand that the two present WMF board members were as open as it
was possible within the constraints of the WMF board unity. We very
much appreciated the commitment of Alice and Jan-Bart and were happy
not to hear certain allegations from the board statement again.

The London Conference discussed many WCA subjects collected during the
last months. One of them was communication, and I am content that I
could convince the participants of a major change. For someone who is
interested in the WCA it has been very difficult to follow the
proceedings, plans and results. When e.g. a Council Member wanted to
talk to others or discuss something, he or she used one of the several
mailing lists the movement has, or Meta Wiki, or private email
addresses. I believe that this has been a fundamental problem with the
regard to the perception of the WCA, and that the participation even
from Council Members suffered also because of this kind of
communication.

After the election of a new Chair, the Chair of the WCA Council will
issue a Bulletin, a kind of short report, with a summary of what
happened recently and what are the plans for the near future. This
will be put on Meta Wiki, and, naturally, discussions will centre
around those Bulletins. For those who are interested it will be much
easier to follow and to participate. If someone wants to support the
WCA via translations, he or she can translate those Bulletins instead
of a lot of messages.

There will be a special list 'WCA-announcements". If you want to be
informed about Bulletins and discussions, join the list and you will
get links to Meta Wiki. It's a one-way-list, because the discussions
are supposed to be on Meta Wiki. This is a WCA service for Council
Members and non Council Members alike. In this way, nobody is obliged
to be on a heavy traffic list such as Wikimedia-l.

When we talked about the future and a possible new election of the
Chair I also asked about my position. If for any reason someone
believed that there should be a new election of the Deputy Chair, I
wanted to hear. The participants said that that is no issue and that
it is good to have continuity. The role of the Deputy Chair is to be
there for the case that at some moment there is no Chair, and then the
Deputy has to arrange the election.

The WCA continues to exist and will make some rearrangements - it's
exiting to follow the evolution.

Kind regards
Ziko van Dijk

--

-----------------------------------------------------------
Vereniging Wikimedia Nederland
dr. Ziko van Dijk, voorzitter
http://wmnederland.nl/

Wikimedia Nederland
Postbus 167
3500 AD Utrecht
-----------------------------------------------------------

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Looking back at the London Conference

Jan-Bart de Vreede-3
Hey

So just to add my perspective on the mail below (as one of the two board members that were present).

As mentioned before the board has several big issues with the WCA where it was going (as outlined on the meta discussion page and our statement: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Chapters_Association#WMF_Board_letter_regarding_the_Chapters_Association)

We felt that our statement was needed at the time, and some good debate has taken place. If we were inconsistent in our behaviour (in the eyes of Ziko) this was simply because things increasingly seemed to be going the wrong way and views evolve over time.

The discussion we had was a very useful one, and you can read a pretty accurate transcript at: http://etherpad.wikimedia.org/WCA/ (and I see that minutes are being worked on as I type this, so a formal report is likely to be announced here soon I guess)

The main focus that I tried to bring across is that the people working on the Chapter Association stop focusing on process, structure, incorporation, hiring and strategy but rather focus on getting things started and trying to develop things that work and can grow. Rather than focus on membership and voting, focus on getting an exchange of knowledge, experience and skills between all the chapters (members or not).

And though it might not come across right now without seeing the results,  I feel that the weekend was very useful. There was a lot of energy in the room and a willingness to re-assess where the CA is, and where it needs to go (thank you for that everyone, and thank you to Fae for helping create this open environment). Public discussion on meta, along with open exchange and notes are a good start, and I am sure that a lot of things will be happening the next months. Hopefully this will grow into the potential that chapter cooperation has always had.

Jan-Bart de Vreede
Wikimedia Board of Trustees


On Feb 19, 2013, at 5:10 PM, Ziko van Dijk <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Dear Council Members and everyone interested in the WCA,
>
> On 16/17th February 2013 a number of Council Members visited the
> London Conference I had proposed in mid January to talk about the way
> of the WCA and to prepare the Wikimedia Conference in Milan. We are
> happy that the London Conference did happen, and, in spite of the
> debatable WMF board statement of 5th February, that two WMF board
> members still agreed to join us.
>
> Because in 2012/2013 the signals from the WMF were not very consistent
> I tried to receive more clarity about the relationship between
> Foundation and Association. This was only partially successful, but I
> understand that the two present WMF board members were as open as it
> was possible within the constraints of the WMF board unity. We very
> much appreciated the commitment of Alice and Jan-Bart and were happy
> not to hear certain allegations from the board statement again.
>
> The London Conference discussed many WCA subjects collected during the
> last months. One of them was communication, and I am content that I
> could convince the participants of a major change. For someone who is
> interested in the WCA it has been very difficult to follow the
> proceedings, plans and results. When e.g. a Council Member wanted to
> talk to others or discuss something, he or she used one of the several
> mailing lists the movement has, or Meta Wiki, or private email
> addresses. I believe that this has been a fundamental problem with the
> regard to the perception of the WCA, and that the participation even
> from Council Members suffered also because of this kind of
> communication.
>
> After the election of a new Chair, the Chair of the WCA Council will
> issue a Bulletin, a kind of short report, with a summary of what
> happened recently and what are the plans for the near future. This
> will be put on Meta Wiki, and, naturally, discussions will centre
> around those Bulletins. For those who are interested it will be much
> easier to follow and to participate. If someone wants to support the
> WCA via translations, he or she can translate those Bulletins instead
> of a lot of messages.
>
> There will be a special list 'WCA-announcements". If you want to be
> informed about Bulletins and discussions, join the list and you will
> get links to Meta Wiki. It's a one-way-list, because the discussions
> are supposed to be on Meta Wiki. This is a WCA service for Council
> Members and non Council Members alike. In this way, nobody is obliged
> to be on a heavy traffic list such as Wikimedia-l.
>
> When we talked about the future and a possible new election of the
> Chair I also asked about my position. If for any reason someone
> believed that there should be a new election of the Deputy Chair, I
> wanted to hear. The participants said that that is no issue and that
> it is good to have continuity. The role of the Deputy Chair is to be
> there for the case that at some moment there is no Chair, and then the
> Deputy has to arrange the election.
>
> The WCA continues to exist and will make some rearrangements - it's
> exiting to follow the evolution.
>
> Kind regards
> Ziko van Dijk
>
> --
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> Vereniging Wikimedia Nederland
> dr. Ziko van Dijk, voorzitter
> http://wmnederland.nl/
>
> Wikimedia Nederland
> Postbus 167
> 3500 AD Utrecht
> -----------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Looking back at the London Conference

Thehelpfulone
In reply to this post by Ziko van Dijk-2
On 19 February 2013 16:10, Ziko van Dijk <[hidden email]> wrote:

> There will be a special list 'WCA-announcements". If you want to be
> informed about Bulletins and discussions, join the list and you will
> get links to Meta Wiki. It's a one-way-list, because the discussions
> are supposed to be on Meta Wiki. This is a WCA service for Council
> Members and non Council Members alike. In this way, nobody is obliged
> to be on a heavy traffic list such as Wikimedia-l.
>

Thanks Ziko, I'm happy to create this list for you on the Foundation
servers, please follow the instructions at
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists#Create_a_new_list to file a
bug. I'd suggest "WCA-Announce" to match our similar announcement lists for
MediaWiki, WLM, Toolserver etc and to keep it relatively short.

--
Thehelpfulone
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Thehelpfulone
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Looking back at the London Conference

Michael Peel-4

On 19 Feb 2013, at 19:57, Thehelpfulone <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 19 February 2013 16:10, Ziko van Dijk <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> There will be a special list 'WCA-announcements". If you want to be
>> informed about Bulletins and discussions, join the list and you will
>> get links to Meta Wiki. It's a one-way-list, because the discussions
>> are supposed to be on Meta Wiki. This is a WCA service for Council
>> Members and non Council Members alike. In this way, nobody is obliged
>> to be on a heavy traffic list such as Wikimedia-l.
>>
>
> Thanks Ziko, I'm happy to create this list for you on the Foundation
> servers, please follow the instructions at
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists#Create_a_new_list to file a
> bug. I'd suggest "WCA-Announce" to match our similar announcement lists for
> MediaWiki, WLM, Toolserver etc and to keep it relatively short.

Is there a reason why wikimediaannounce-l can't be used here?

Thanks,
Mike
(Personal viewpoint)


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Looking back at the London Conference

Jan-Bart de Vreede-3
yeah, I was going to suggest the same thing, why make a different list with different membership?

Jan-Bart (personally agreeing with mike's personal viewpoint… please don't take it personally)


On Feb 19, 2013, at 9:09 PM, Michael Peel <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 19 Feb 2013, at 19:57, Thehelpfulone <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On 19 February 2013 16:10, Ziko van Dijk <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> There will be a special list 'WCA-announcements". If you want to be
>>> informed about Bulletins and discussions, join the list and you will
>>> get links to Meta Wiki. It's a one-way-list, because the discussions
>>> are supposed to be on Meta Wiki. This is a WCA service for Council
>>> Members and non Council Members alike. In this way, nobody is obliged
>>> to be on a heavy traffic list such as Wikimedia-l.
>>>
>>
>> Thanks Ziko, I'm happy to create this list for you on the Foundation
>> servers, please follow the instructions at
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists#Create_a_new_list to file a
>> bug. I'd suggest "WCA-Announce" to match our similar announcement lists for
>> MediaWiki, WLM, Toolserver etc and to keep it relatively short.
>
> Is there a reason why wikimediaannounce-l can't be used here?
>
> Thanks,
> Mike
> (Personal viewpoint)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l


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[Wikimedia-l] Looking back at the London Conference

Ziko van Dijk-2
In reply to this post by Jan-Bart de Vreede-3
Hello,
Just to keep in mind: it has been no secret, from the beginning, that the
WCA planned to hire somebody. The WMF board is supported by employees too,
and I guess that the WMF has a number of regulations. Enough room for views
to evolve.
But it sounds good to focus on getting things started instead of focusing
on process, structure etc. - I will remember that when the WMF asks again
report after report from the chapters' volunteers...
Ziko




2013/2/19 Jan-Bart de Vreede <[hidden email]>:
> Hey
>
> So just to add my perspective on the mail below (as one of the two board
members that were present).
>
> As mentioned before the board has several big issues with the WCA where
it was going (as outlined on the meta discussion page and our statement:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Chapters_Association#WMF_Board_letter_regarding_the_Chapters_Association
)
>
> We felt that our statement was needed at the time, and some good debate
has taken place. If we were inconsistent in our behaviour (in the eyes of
Ziko) this was simply because things increasingly seemed to be going the
wrong way and views evolve over time.
>
> The discussion we had was a very useful one, and you can read a pretty
accurate transcript at: http://etherpad.wikimedia.org/WCA/ (and I see that
minutes are being worked on as I type this, so a formal report is likely to
be announced here soon I guess)
>
> The main focus that I tried to bring across is that the people working on
the Chapter Association stop focusing on process, structure, incorporation,
hiring and strategy but rather focus on getting things started and trying
to develop things that work and can grow. Rather than focus on membership
and voting, focus on getting an exchange of knowledge, experience and
skills between all the chapters (members or not).
>
> And though it might not come across right now without seeing the results,
 I feel that the weekend was very useful. There was a lot of energy in the
room and a willingness to re-assess where the CA is, and where it needs to
go (thank you for that everyone, and thank you to Fae for helping create
this open environment). Public discussion on meta, along with open exchange
and notes are a good start, and I am sure that a lot of things will be
happening the next months. Hopefully this will grow into the potential that
chapter cooperation has always had.

>
> Jan-Bart de Vreede
> Wikimedia Board of Trustees
>
>
> On Feb 19, 2013, at 5:10 PM, Ziko van Dijk <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Dear Council Members and everyone interested in the WCA,
>>
>> On 16/17th February 2013 a number of Council Members visited the
>> London Conference I had proposed in mid January to talk about the way
>> of the WCA and to prepare the Wikimedia Conference in Milan. We are
>> happy that the London Conference did happen, and, in spite of the
>> debatable WMF board statement of 5th February, that two WMF board
>> members still agreed to join us.
>>
>> Because in 2012/2013 the signals from the WMF were not very consistent
>> I tried to receive more clarity about the relationship between
>> Foundation and Association. This was only partially successful, but I
>> understand that the two present WMF board members were as open as it
>> was possible within the constraints of the WMF board unity. We very
>> much appreciated the commitment of Alice and Jan-Bart and were happy
>> not to hear certain allegations from the board statement again.
>>
>> The London Conference discussed many WCA subjects collected during the
>> last months. One of them was communication, and I am content that I
>> could convince the participants of a major change. For someone who is
>> interested in the WCA it has been very difficult to follow the
>> proceedings, plans and results. When e.g. a Council Member wanted to
>> talk to others or discuss something, he or she used one of the several
>> mailing lists the movement has, or Meta Wiki, or private email
>> addresses. I believe that this has been a fundamental problem with the
>> regard to the perception of the WCA, and that the participation even
>> from Council Members suffered also because of this kind of
>> communication.
>>
>> After the election of a new Chair, the Chair of the WCA Council will
>> issue a Bulletin, a kind of short report, with a summary of what
>> happened recently and what are the plans for the near future. This
>> will be put on Meta Wiki, and, naturally, discussions will centre
>> around those Bulletins. For those who are interested it will be much
>> easier to follow and to participate. If someone wants to support the
>> WCA via translations, he or she can translate those Bulletins instead
>> of a lot of messages.
>>
>> There will be a special list 'WCA-announcements". If you want to be
>> informed about Bulletins and discussions, join the list and you will
>> get links to Meta Wiki. It's a one-way-list, because the discussions
>> are supposed to be on Meta Wiki. This is a WCA service for Council
>> Members and non Council Members alike. In this way, nobody is obliged
>> to be on a heavy traffic list such as Wikimedia-l.
>>
>> When we talked about the future and a possible new election of the
>> Chair I also asked about my position. If for any reason someone
>> believed that there should be a new election of the Deputy Chair, I
>> wanted to hear. The participants said that that is no issue and that
>> it is good to have continuity. The role of the Deputy Chair is to be
>> there for the case that at some moment there is no Chair, and then the
>> Deputy has to arrange the election.
>>
>> The WCA continues to exist and will make some rearrangements - it's
>> exiting to follow the evolution.
>>
>> Kind regards
>> Ziko van Dijk
>>
>> --
>>
>> -----------------------------------------------------------
>> Vereniging Wikimedia Nederland
>> dr. Ziko van Dijk, voorzitter
>> http://wmnederland.nl/
>>
>> Wikimedia Nederland
>> Postbus 167
>> 3500 AD Utrecht
>> -----------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l



--

-----------------------------------------------------------
Vereniging Wikimedia Nederland
dr. Ziko van Dijk, voorzitter
http://wmnederland.nl/

Wikimedia Nederland
Postbus 167
3500 AD Utrecht
-----------------------------------------------------------
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Looking back at the London Conference

Balázs Viczián
Hi,

sorry, no offense meant, but all of you are keep saying the same things
again and again. At least a dozen times I've read lines, like "don't focus
on this, focus on that" or let me say WCA recruiting athough you dropped
that idea about two weeks ago (really?)

I'd like to help you with focusing: It wouls be lovely to see those
"things" mentioned above explained as detailed as possible what is much
more than that list of ideas ("tasks") you may think of right now linking
here.

sorry, just got a little bit annoyed reading the very same discussion for
at least the fifth or sixths time and it is still not differing from the
previous ones.

uff

Vince
2013.02.19. 23:14, "Ziko van Dijk" <[hidden email]> ezt írta:

> Hello,
> Just to keep in mind: it has been no secret, from the beginning, that the
> WCA planned to hire somebody. The WMF board is supported by employees too,
> and I guess that the WMF has a number of regulations. Enough room for views
> to evolve.
> But it sounds good to focus on getting things started instead of focusing
> on process, structure etc. - I will remember that when the WMF asks again
> report after report from the chapters' volunteers...
> Ziko
>
>
>
>
> 2013/2/19 Jan-Bart de Vreede <[hidden email]>:
> > Hey
> >
> > So just to add my perspective on the mail below (as one of the two board
> members that were present).
> >
> > As mentioned before the board has several big issues with the WCA where
> it was going (as outlined on the meta discussion page and our statement:
>
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Chapters_Association#WMF_Board_letter_regarding_the_Chapters_Association
> )
> >
> > We felt that our statement was needed at the time, and some good debate
> has taken place. If we were inconsistent in our behaviour (in the eyes of
> Ziko) this was simply because things increasingly seemed to be going the
> wrong way and views evolve over time.
> >
> > The discussion we had was a very useful one, and you can read a pretty
> accurate transcript at: http://etherpad.wikimedia.org/WCA/ (and I see that
> minutes are being worked on as I type this, so a formal report is likely to
> be announced here soon I guess)
> >
> > The main focus that I tried to bring across is that the people working on
> the Chapter Association stop focusing on process, structure, incorporation,
> hiring and strategy but rather focus on getting things started and trying
> to develop things that work and can grow. Rather than focus on membership
> and voting, focus on getting an exchange of knowledge, experience and
> skills between all the chapters (members or not).
> >
> > And though it might not come across right now without seeing the results,
>  I feel that the weekend was very useful. There was a lot of energy in the
> room and a willingness to re-assess where the CA is, and where it needs to
> go (thank you for that everyone, and thank you to Fae for helping create
> this open environment). Public discussion on meta, along with open exchange
> and notes are a good start, and I am sure that a lot of things will be
> happening the next months. Hopefully this will grow into the potential that
> chapter cooperation has always had.
> >
> > Jan-Bart de Vreede
> > Wikimedia Board of Trustees
> >
> >
> > On Feb 19, 2013, at 5:10 PM, Ziko van Dijk <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Dear Council Members and everyone interested in the WCA,
> >>
> >> On 16/17th February 2013 a number of Council Members visited the
> >> London Conference I had proposed in mid January to talk about the way
> >> of the WCA and to prepare the Wikimedia Conference in Milan. We are
> >> happy that the London Conference did happen, and, in spite of the
> >> debatable WMF board statement of 5th February, that two WMF board
> >> members still agreed to join us.
> >>
> >> Because in 2012/2013 the signals from the WMF were not very consistent
> >> I tried to receive more clarity about the relationship between
> >> Foundation and Association. This was only partially successful, but I
> >> understand that the two present WMF board members were as open as it
> >> was possible within the constraints of the WMF board unity. We very
> >> much appreciated the commitment of Alice and Jan-Bart and were happy
> >> not to hear certain allegations from the board statement again.
> >>
> >> The London Conference discussed many WCA subjects collected during the
> >> last months. One of them was communication, and I am content that I
> >> could convince the participants of a major change. For someone who is
> >> interested in the WCA it has been very difficult to follow the
> >> proceedings, plans and results. When e.g. a Council Member wanted to
> >> talk to others or discuss something, he or she used one of the several
> >> mailing lists the movement has, or Meta Wiki, or private email
> >> addresses. I believe that this has been a fundamental problem with the
> >> regard to the perception of the WCA, and that the participation even
> >> from Council Members suffered also because of this kind of
> >> communication.
> >>
> >> After the election of a new Chair, the Chair of the WCA Council will
> >> issue a Bulletin, a kind of short report, with a summary of what
> >> happened recently and what are the plans for the near future. This
> >> will be put on Meta Wiki, and, naturally, discussions will centre
> >> around those Bulletins. For those who are interested it will be much
> >> easier to follow and to participate. If someone wants to support the
> >> WCA via translations, he or she can translate those Bulletins instead
> >> of a lot of messages.
> >>
> >> There will be a special list 'WCA-announcements". If you want to be
> >> informed about Bulletins and discussions, join the list and you will
> >> get links to Meta Wiki. It's a one-way-list, because the discussions
> >> are supposed to be on Meta Wiki. This is a WCA service for Council
> >> Members and non Council Members alike. In this way, nobody is obliged
> >> to be on a heavy traffic list such as Wikimedia-l.
> >>
> >> When we talked about the future and a possible new election of the
> >> Chair I also asked about my position. If for any reason someone
> >> believed that there should be a new election of the Deputy Chair, I
> >> wanted to hear. The participants said that that is no issue and that
> >> it is good to have continuity. The role of the Deputy Chair is to be
> >> there for the case that at some moment there is no Chair, and then the
> >> Deputy has to arrange the election.
> >>
> >> The WCA continues to exist and will make some rearrangements - it's
> >> exiting to follow the evolution.
> >>
> >> Kind regards
> >> Ziko van Dijk
> >>
> >> --
> >>
> >> -----------------------------------------------------------
> >> Vereniging Wikimedia Nederland
> >> dr. Ziko van Dijk, voorzitter
> >> http://wmnederland.nl/
> >>
> >> Wikimedia Nederland
> >> Postbus 167
> >> 3500 AD Utrecht
> >> -----------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>
>
>
> --
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> Vereniging Wikimedia Nederland
> dr. Ziko van Dijk, voorzitter
> http://wmnederland.nl/
>
> Wikimedia Nederland
> Postbus 167
> 3500 AD Utrecht
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Looking back at the London Conference

James Alexander-3
In reply to this post by Ziko van Dijk-2
On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 2:13 PM, Ziko van Dijk <[hidden email]>wrote:

> Hello,
> Just to keep in mind: it has been no secret, from the beginning, that the
> WCA planned to hire somebody. The WMF board is supported by employees too,
> and I guess that the WMF has a number of regulations. Enough room for views
> to evolve.
> But it sounds good to focus on getting things started instead of focusing
> on process, structure etc. - I will remember that when the WMF asks again
> report after report from the chapters' volunteers...
> Ziko
>
>
>
>
>
I just want to point out something that I think gets lost frequently... yes
the WMF is supported by staff etc but it wasn't really when it was created.
They had Brion working for Bomis but he was the only one for quite a while,
 then it had 2-3 for a while. The large amount of staff was only relatively
recently when it was decided that it was beneficial and necessary for the
goals that it had. It's first full year (2004) the TOTAL expenses were
$23,463 , in 2005 it was $177,670 (only $16,930 being wages, the majority
of it was hosting charges). You can argue that you don't agree with the
increase in staff or with the goals but they waited until they had that
before they grew, it wasn't out of the blue and it wasn't just because they
had money. The evidence is pretty clear on that.

I also think the idea that "The WMF has staff so clearly the WCA should (or
even the Chapters) and you're being a hypocrite by not wanting it " is a
disingenuous response that keeps getting repeated. They are different
animals. The only ways this would be a fair comparison is if you think the
chapters and/or the WCA should be the same as the WMF and/or similar. I
don't think that's what most people want in the community and most chapter
members involved have been quick to say it isn't what THEY want. If the aim
of the WCA is supposed to be another WMF or an Anti-WMF then ... sure... I
guess I can see why it's hypocritical for them to say you don't need it
while they have staff but... that doesn't seem to be the case.... and if it
is lets discuss THAT because I think that's a really bad idea.

Groups should grow naturally, they should incorporate only when necessary
and get staff only when necessary, trying to push them before they are
ready only makes things worse.  We have been having a long standing habit
within the meta movement to rush towards organizations and staff long
before it's necessary, pissing away money and good will.

James
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Looking back at the London Conference

Fæ
On 19 February 2013 23:47, James Alexander <[hidden email]> wrote:
...
> Groups should grow naturally, they should incorporate only when necessary
> and get staff only when necessary, trying to push them before they are
> ready only makes things worse.  We have been having a long standing habit
> within the meta movement to rush towards organizations and staff long
> before it's necessary, pissing away money and good will.
>
> James

I don't disagree with the sentiment. I recall the WMUK strategy
weekend when the chapter board and staff all stood in the room to
indicate how important to the new charity fundraising was. I was the
Chair at the time, and I think I annoyed almost everyone there by
being the only one standing in the middle of the room, and saying that
I could do everything in our mission with a bag of crisps and money
for a coffee, while almost everyone else was putting fundraising as
the highest importance.

Money is not in our mission statement or our values. It's a burden and
a governance nightmare. I already have a track record of doing good
things relying on *other people's* money, it does not have to be in my
bank account in order to have institutions and others eventually agree
that:
* archives should be on a fully free license
* governments should support open knowledge for selfish reasons
* everyone should consider becoming immortal by releasing the
copyright on their creations in their wills
* publishers should stop worrying about being gatekeepers and become
knowledge facilitators
* academics should help their careers by sharing early rather than hoarding
* knowledge institutions should really mean their mission for the
public good, and make it happen in the real world

To change everything, all we need is time, perhaps a life-time, an
off-peak train ticket and maybe a cheap sandwich. With a bit of money
we can do a little more, but you know, it's not the most important
thing, what matters is the vision we have to share and not being let
down too many times by the hierarchy we have chosen to create.

Now, if you want it faster than folks like me, on our own, liberating
knowledge and having enormous fun talking to one person at a time and
evangelizing the bejesus out of them, we might need to talk about
using some donated money in smart ways and we might need to have
something more reliable and consistent than wacky volunteers like me
who tend to burn out all too quickly and all too often.

Cheers,
Fae
--
Ashley Van Haeften (Fae) [hidden email]
Chapters Association Council Chair http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WCA
Guide to email tags: http://j.mp/mfae

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Looking back at the London Conference

Keegan Peterzell
On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 6:18 PM, Fae <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 19 February 2013 23:47, James Alexander <[hidden email]> wrote:
> ...
> > Groups should grow naturally, they should incorporate only when necessary
> > and get staff only when necessary, trying to push them before they are
> > ready only makes things worse.  We have been having a long standing habit
> > within the meta movement to rush towards organizations and staff long
> > before it's necessary, pissing away money and good will.
> >
> > James
>
> I don't disagree with the sentiment. I recall the WMUK strategy
> weekend when the chapter board and staff all stood in the room to
> indicate how important to the new charity fundraising was. I was the
> Chair at the time, and I think I annoyed almost everyone there by
> being the only one standing in the middle of the room, and saying that
> I could do everything in our mission with a bag of crisps and money
> for a coffee, while almost everyone else was putting fundraising as
> the highest importance.
>
> Money is not in our mission statement or our values. It's a burden and
> a governance nightmare.


Fae, thank you and Ziko for working on clearing this up.  The idea of money
is a bad taste.

I completely understand and sympathize with the necessity of finance to
fund a movement.  I've been there in a situation completely unrelated to
Wikimedia, and in working on Fundraising 2010 part-time as a contractor for
the WMF that rounded out my experience for the necessity of funds.

That being said, with the ear that I have to the ground of Wikimedia
without participation in any chapter or otherwise unaffiliated movement,
when the WCA was first proposed the number one thing that was spoken (or
whispered) was that this was going to require hiring at least one person as
the "Secretary General."

Bureaucracy starts from the ground up, and from that way that the WCA was
presented, whether intentional or not, was just as the nightmare as you
mentioned.  Great, we're starting an organization to organize our
organizational outreach for the broader movement which is affiliated with
another organization but it's not at all.  Now, how can we pay for this?

I'm not saying this was the intent, I know better; this is how I read it as
a Wikimedia observer.  I believe that chapter organization, should chapters
chose to do so, is a good thing.  I believe that structure should be
created, as James Alexander explained, as it happens, just as everything
else on Wikimedia occurs.  Otherwise, doing the sensible  thing wouldn't
work.

By all means continue building the WCA, but please forget that its function
is as a bureaucracy.  With our spirit, it will never live.


--
~Keegan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Looking back at the London Conference

Charles Andrès-2
In reply to this post by Ziko van Dijk-2
Hello Ziko,

Because you want to hear:

1)Their is no census within the chapter whether we still want a deputy chair position

2)if we keep a chair and a deputy chair, it has always been planned that this position should be open to vote at the next WCA meeting

3) 7 council member connote decide on their own of keeping in place the deputy chair!!

4)The WCA do not need continuity, since ten month we haven't been able to provide something real , I don't see why we should continue this way


Charles




___________________________________________________________
I use this email for mailing list only.

Charles ANDRES, Chairman
"Wikimedia CH" – Association for the advancement of free knowledge –
www.wikimedia.ch
Skype: charles.andres.wmch
IRC://irc.freenode.net/wikimedia-ch

Le 19 févr. 2013 à 17:10, Ziko van Dijk <[hidden email]> a écrit :

> Dear Council Members and everyone interested in the WCA,
>
> On 16/17th February 2013 a number of Council Members visited the
> London Conference I had proposed in mid January to talk about the way
> of the WCA and to prepare the Wikimedia Conference in Milan. We are
> happy that the London Conference did happen, and, in spite of the
> debatable WMF board statement of 5th February, that two WMF board
> members still agreed to join us.
>
> Because in 2012/2013 the signals from the WMF were not very consistent
> I tried to receive more clarity about the relationship between
> Foundation and Association. This was only partially successful, but I
> understand that the two present WMF board members were as open as it
> was possible within the constraints of the WMF board unity. We very
> much appreciated the commitment of Alice and Jan-Bart and were happy
> not to hear certain allegations from the board statement again.
>
> The London Conference discussed many WCA subjects collected during the
> last months. One of them was communication, and I am content that I
> could convince the participants of a major change. For someone who is
> interested in the WCA it has been very difficult to follow the
> proceedings, plans and results. When e.g. a Council Member wanted to
> talk to others or discuss something, he or she used one of the several
> mailing lists the movement has, or Meta Wiki, or private email
> addresses. I believe that this has been a fundamental problem with the
> regard to the perception of the WCA, and that the participation even
> from Council Members suffered also because of this kind of
> communication.
>
> After the election of a new Chair, the Chair of the WCA Council will
> issue a Bulletin, a kind of short report, with a summary of what
> happened recently and what are the plans for the near future. This
> will be put on Meta Wiki, and, naturally, discussions will centre
> around those Bulletins. For those who are interested it will be much
> easier to follow and to participate. If someone wants to support the
> WCA via translations, he or she can translate those Bulletins instead
> of a lot of messages.
>
> There will be a special list 'WCA-announcements". If you want to be
> informed about Bulletins and discussions, join the list and you will
> get links to Meta Wiki. It's a one-way-list, because the discussions
> are supposed to be on Meta Wiki. This is a WCA service for Council
> Members and non Council Members alike. In this way, nobody is obliged
> to be on a heavy traffic list such as Wikimedia-l.
>
> When we talked about the future and a possible new election of the
> Chair I also asked about my position. If for any reason someone
> believed that there should be a new election of the Deputy Chair, I
> wanted to hear. The participants said that that is no issue and that
> it is good to have continuity. The role of the Deputy Chair is to be
> there for the case that at some moment there is no Chair, and then the
> Deputy has to arrange the election.
>
> The WCA continues to exist and will make some rearrangements - it's
> exiting to follow the evolution.
>
> Kind regards
> Ziko van Dijk
>
> --
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> Vereniging Wikimedia Nederland
> dr. Ziko van Dijk, voorzitter
> http://wmnederland.nl/
>
> Wikimedia Nederland
> Postbus 167
> 3500 AD Utrecht
> -----------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Looking back at the London Conference

Philippe Beaudette-3
In reply to this post by Jan-Bart de Vreede-3
From Ziko's note about this:
> There will be a special list 'WCA-announcements". If you want to be
> informed about Bulletins and discussions, join the list and you will
> get links to Meta Wiki. It's a one-way-list, because the discussions
> are supposed to be on Meta Wiki. This is a WCA service for Council
> Members and non Council Members alike. In this way, nobody is obliged
> to be on a heavy traffic list such as Wikimedia-l.

That's not the way that wikimedia-announce is currently set up (it actually
refers all replies to wikimedia-l).  So if this is really the setup that's
desired, that requires a new (and differently configured) list.

pb

___________________
Philippe Beaudette
Director, Community Advocacy
Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.

415-839-6885, x 6643

[hidden email]


On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 12:41 PM, Jan-Bart de Vreede <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> yeah, I was going to suggest the same thing, why make a different list
> with different membership?
>
> Jan-Bart (personally agreeing with mike's personal viewpoint… please don't
> take it personally)
>
>
> On Feb 19, 2013, at 9:09 PM, Michael Peel <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> >
> > On 19 Feb 2013, at 19:57, Thehelpfulone <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> >> On 19 February 2013 16:10, Ziko van Dijk <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >>
> >>> There will be a special list 'WCA-announcements". If you want to be
> >>> informed about Bulletins and discussions, join the list and you will
> >>> get links to Meta Wiki. It's a one-way-list, because the discussions
> >>> are supposed to be on Meta Wiki. This is a WCA service for Council
> >>> Members and non Council Members alike. In this way, nobody is obliged
> >>> to be on a heavy traffic list such as Wikimedia-l.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Thanks Ziko, I'm happy to create this list for you on the Foundation
> >> servers, please follow the instructions at
> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists#Create_a_new_list to
> file a
> >> bug. I'd suggest "WCA-Announce" to match our similar announcement lists
> for
> >> MediaWiki, WLM, Toolserver etc and to keep it relatively short.
> >
> > Is there a reason why wikimediaannounce-l can't be used here?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Mike
> > (Personal viewpoint)
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Looking back at the London Conference

Charles Andrès-2
In reply to this post by Thehelpfulone
Hello,

In fact this mailing list has already been created since  a while, it's just not used for the moment.

The question of the hosting hasn't been discuss in this way, for the WCA  WMCH is offering the hosting of chapters mailing list, "chapters wiki", and some "chapter wiki". So it has just been natural to create the mailing list on WMCH server.

It's an illustration of active step the WCA could take.

The idea behind offer such "IT" service is to avoid to people to have to reinvent the wheel swell as an optimization of the cost, by sharing a server.


Cheers


Charles


___________________________________________________________
I use this email for mailing list only.

Charles ANDRES, Chairman
"Wikimedia CH" – Association for the advancement of free knowledge –
www.wikimedia.ch
Skype: charles.andres.wmch
IRC://irc.freenode.net/wikimedia-ch

Le 19 févr. 2013 à 20:57, Thehelpfulone <[hidden email]> a écrit :

> On 19 February 2013 16:10, Ziko van Dijk <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> There will be a special list 'WCA-announcements". If you want to be
>> informed about Bulletins and discussions, join the list and you will
>> get links to Meta Wiki. It's a one-way-list, because the discussions
>> are supposed to be on Meta Wiki. This is a WCA service for Council
>> Members and non Council Members alike. In this way, nobody is obliged
>> to be on a heavy traffic list such as Wikimedia-l.
>>
>
> Thanks Ziko, I'm happy to create this list for you on the Foundation
> servers, please follow the instructions at
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists#Create_a_new_list to file a
> bug. I'd suggest "WCA-Announce" to match our similar announcement lists for
> MediaWiki, WLM, Toolserver etc and to keep it relatively short.
>
> --
> Thehelpfulone
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Thehelpfulone
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Looking back at the London Conference

Fæ
In reply to this post by Charles Andrès-2
On 20 February 2013 07:57, Charles Andrès <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hello Ziko,
>
> Because you want to hear:
>
> 1)Their is no census within the chapter whether we still want a deputy chair position

It's better for us to focus on the actions we are taking for the next
3 months. We decided to defer discussion about changing roles and
considering a board, or changing the titles we currently use. Any
member of the Council is welcome to draft a resolution or discuss
alternatives, but this will draw the oxygen away from being seen to
make progress on solid outcomes, rather than internal affairs.

> 2)if we keep a chair and a deputy chair, it has always been planned that this position should be open to vote at the next WCA meeting

It was my decision, made after private discussions with Ting and SJ,
apparently in response Jimmy Wales raising this for the WMF board's
attention immediately after my English Wikipedia ban and before the
end of the summer conference in Washington DC, to ensure that we would
have an election this spring for the Chair position in a more formal
and structured way. Though our vote was valid, I was never very happy
at being elected without competition or much discussion. For that
reason I was not prepared to just stay in position for 2 years. You
will recall that for the Deputy Chair position, there was a
competition and discussion so I believe this had a firmer sense of
democracy.

> 3) 7 council member connote decide on their own of keeping in place the deputy chair!!

Similarly, this was no a decision that was ever tabled or considered necessary.

> 4)The WCA do not need continuity, since ten month we haven't been able to provide something real , I don't see why we should continue this way

We chose to radically re-frame our plans. We have done this in a way
that does not require resolutions or complex bureaucracy to move
forward. I don't see how asking Ziko to go through an election process
now, helps demonstrate that we are taking an external focus. The
election process for Chair is a different matter, it was always
planned for March and I have chosen to bring this forward based on the
continued private approaches to the Council from 5 WMF trustees since
my election, who were not happy with the WCA having me as our elected
Chair, though the WMF itself has no public position on this matter.

Thanks,
Fae
--
Ashley Van Haeften (Fae) [hidden email]
Chapters Association Council Chair http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WCA
Guide to email tags: http://j.mp/mfae

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Looking back at the London Conference

Christophe Henner
In reply to this post by Charles Andrès-2
Why do we need two "announce" mailing lists? Can't we all use
wikimedia-announce ?

Christophe
--
Christophe


On 20 February 2013 09:22, Charles Andrès <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> In fact this mailing list has already been created since  a while, it's just not used for the moment.
>
> The question of the hosting hasn't been discuss in this way, for the WCA  WMCH is offering the hosting of chapters mailing list, "chapters wiki", and some "chapter wiki". So it has just been natural to create the mailing list on WMCH server.
>
> It's an illustration of active step the WCA could take.
>
> The idea behind offer such "IT" service is to avoid to people to have to reinvent the wheel swell as an optimization of the cost, by sharing a server.
>
>
> Cheers
>
>
> Charles
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> I use this email for mailing list only.
>
> Charles ANDRES, Chairman
> "Wikimedia CH" – Association for the advancement of free knowledge –
> www.wikimedia.ch
> Skype: charles.andres.wmch
> IRC://irc.freenode.net/wikimedia-ch
>
> Le 19 févr. 2013 à 20:57, Thehelpfulone <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>
>> On 19 February 2013 16:10, Ziko van Dijk <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> There will be a special list 'WCA-announcements". If you want to be
>>> informed about Bulletins and discussions, join the list and you will
>>> get links to Meta Wiki. It's a one-way-list, because the discussions
>>> are supposed to be on Meta Wiki. This is a WCA service for Council
>>> Members and non Council Members alike. In this way, nobody is obliged
>>> to be on a heavy traffic list such as Wikimedia-l.
>>>
>>
>> Thanks Ziko, I'm happy to create this list for you on the Foundation
>> servers, please follow the instructions at
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists#Create_a_new_list to file a
>> bug. I'd suggest "WCA-Announce" to match our similar announcement lists for
>> MediaWiki, WLM, Toolserver etc and to keep it relatively short.
>>
>> --
>> Thehelpfulone
>> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Thehelpfulone
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Looking back at the London Conference

Fæ
On 20 February 2013 08:59, Christophe Henner
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Why do we need two "announce" mailing lists? Can't we all use
> wikimedia-announce ?

I don't really care much about how it works, just that it does. Manuel
Schneider took an action at the weekend to advise on points of
contact, and set up the system where needed. He is wonderfully
knowledgeable about our sites and systems, and has the technical skill
to sort this out.

Even if we do start using our WCA announcements list, I would want to
cross post everything of any possible interest. Whether logistics for
the WCA action teams needs to be on Wikimedia-announce, I don't know,
though if doubt remains I would rather keep cross-posting until there
are requests to stop clogging up these extra channels with our
info-spam. :-)

Thanks,
Fae
--
Ashley Van Haeften (Fae) [hidden email]
Chapters Association Council Chair http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WCA
Guide to email tags: http://j.mp/mfae

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Looking back at the London Conference

Charles Andrès-2
In reply to this post by Fæ
Dear Fae,

I find it contradictory to consider that anticipated election of the chair is good for WCA but that for the vice chair it would be bad, if we need to have elections before Milano we can have both in parallel.

Anyway I was,  and I'm still  oppose to anticipated election.  Since the beginning of the discussion about WCA bylaws , the question of "do we need a chair and a vice chair" hasn't been fixed, and I'm sorry to tell that provoking new election before fixing this point is just bad.


Jan-Bart in a previous mail made the good comment that we should stop discussing about membership and voting, but the question here is really about what is the WCA.
Several chapters ask for an Iberocoop model, it means that they don't want a chair and a vice chair. The people present in London can argue that at least some position should exist to assure that coordination is done, but the 7 present in London cannot decide for 14 others.  By deciding to anticipate the election of the chair it's just what you have done.

In your answer you talk about WMF board asking directly or indirectly for your replacement. This argument has been read in the personal comment of board member, and all chapter are aware of that and will take it into account, or not, when the time will come. But we don't need your resignation now whereas the new election is already planned in just two month, the few week of difference will not affect the WCA. Also if you are personally disputed by people outside the chapter, the vice chair is at least equally disputed among the chapter, what's the most important?


Finally I will point that WCA is representing 21 chapters for now, and most of those chapters are really tired of discussion in english on meta, asking them to have a "campaign" and a vote online whereas we can have a live vote in Milano is just another way to say "we don't care of you".


WCA is needed, but is not needed tomorrow , it's needed when all chapter will participate and make it grow, and we won't have that unless we find the seed action that will make all chapter willing to support is growth, and sorry this is not this list http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Chapters_Association/Meetings/2013-07#Session_3:_Actions.2C_engagement that will change the actual dynamic.

I'm not a magician, I don't have a ready to use solution, but what I'm sure, is that the very first step should be an open discussion between chapters about what is the WCA is, and for that purpose I created this page, to build a survey among chapters: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Chapters_Association/survey_march_2013

I invite all interested people to participate to the creation of this survey. In a second time the same type of survey should be open to the whole movement, but because the WCA is the CHAPTER ASSOCIATION, I think it's reasonable to first know what the first concerned people think.


Cheers

Charles
 


 

















___________________________________________________________
I use this email for mailing list only.

Charles ANDRES, Chairman
"Wikimedia CH" – Association for the advancement of free knowledge –
www.wikimedia.ch
Skype: charles.andres.wmch
IRC://irc.freenode.net/wikimedia-ch

Le 20 févr. 2013 à 09:25, Fae <[hidden email]> a écrit :

> On 20 February 2013 07:57, Charles Andrès <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hello Ziko,
>>
>> Because you want to hear:
>>
>> 1)Their is no census within the chapter whether we still want a deputy chair position
>
> It's better for us to focus on the actions we are taking for the next
> 3 months. We decided to defer discussion about changing roles and
> considering a board, or changing the titles we currently use. Any
> member of the Council is welcome to draft a resolution or discuss
> alternatives, but this will draw the oxygen away from being seen to
> make progress on solid outcomes, rather than internal affairs.
>
>> 2)if we keep a chair and a deputy chair, it has always been planned that this position should be open to vote at the next WCA meeting
>
> It was my decision, made after private discussions with Ting and SJ,
> apparently in response Jimmy Wales raising this for the WMF board's
> attention immediately after my English Wikipedia ban and before the
> end of the summer conference in Washington DC, to ensure that we would
> have an election this spring for the Chair position in a more formal
> and structured way. Though our vote was valid, I was never very happy
> at being elected without competition or much discussion. For that
> reason I was not prepared to just stay in position for 2 years. You
> will recall that for the Deputy Chair position, there was a
> competition and discussion so I believe this had a firmer sense of
> democracy.
>
>> 3) 7 council member connote decide on their own of keeping in place the deputy chair!!
>
> Similarly, this was no a decision that was ever tabled or considered necessary.
>
>> 4)The WCA do not need continuity, since ten month we haven't been able to provide something real , I don't see why we should continue this way
>
> We chose to radically re-frame our plans. We have done this in a way
> that does not require resolutions or complex bureaucracy to move
> forward. I don't see how asking Ziko to go through an election process
> now, helps demonstrate that we are taking an external focus. The
> election process for Chair is a different matter, it was always
> planned for March and I have chosen to bring this forward based on the
> continued private approaches to the Council from 5 WMF trustees since
> my election, who were not happy with the WCA having me as our elected
> Chair, though the WMF itself has no public position on this matter.
>
> Thanks,
> Fae
> --
> Ashley Van Haeften (Fae) [hidden email]
> Chapters Association Council Chair http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WCA
> Guide to email tags: http://j.mp/mfae
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Looking back at the London Conference

Ilario Valdelli
I support the email of Charles.

I would invite you to take in consideration a more flexible model and to
give the role of the chair or vice-chair to the chapters (may be
rotating the functions) and not to a single person.

Afterwards the chapter may decide who will be the person in charge, but
this would be an internal decision limited to the chapter.

This solution will help to share different points of view and to give
relevance to the chapters and not to people.

This solution will help also to avoid personal discussions (the chapter
may substitute the person in charge) and may focus the efforts in more
productive discussions.

I would say that it has been considered relevant the Iberocoop model but
this model has its own weaknesses, it's a good start but it's not a
valid model (and I think that Iberocoop members are aware of that).

In any relevant confederation the rotation is the most used solution. In
Europe for instance the presidency of the Council of EU is in charge of
each member but I would give the example of Switzerland (and the
Switzerland is a confederation since XIII century):

/President and Vice President rotate annually, each Councillor thus
becoming Vice President and then President [...]. The President is not
the Swiss head of state//, but he or she is the highest-ranking Swiss
official. He or she presides over Council meetings and carries out
certain representative functions that, in other countries, are the
business of the//head of state//. In urgent situations where a Council
decision cannot be made in time, the President is empowered to act on
behalf of the whole Council. Apart from that, though, the President is a
/*/primus inter pares/*/, having no power above and beyond the other six
Councillors/[1]

Please have in mind these words: "Primus inter pares".

So I invite you to help and to support a migration to a new model more
flexible, more decentralized and more focused on the needs of the chapters.

Regards

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primus_inter_pares#Switzerland

On 21.02.2013 12:07, Charles Andrès wrote:

> Dear Fae,
>
> I find it contradictory to consider that anticipated election of the chair is good for WCA but that for the vice chair it would be bad, if we need to have elections before Milano we can have both in parallel.
>
> Anyway I was,  and I'm still  oppose to anticipated election.  Since the beginning of the discussion about WCA bylaws , the question of "do we need a chair and a vice chair" hasn't been fixed, and I'm sorry to tell that provoking new election before fixing this point is just bad.
>
>
> Jan-Bart in a previous mail made the good comment that we should stop discussing about membership and voting, but the question here is really about what is the WCA.
> Several chapters ask for an Iberocoop model, it means that they don't want a chair and a vice chair. The people present in London can argue that at least some position should exist to assure that coordination is done, but the 7 present in London cannot decide for 14 others.  By deciding to anticipate the election of the chair it's just what you have done.
>
> In your answer you talk about WMF board asking directly or indirectly for your replacement. This argument has been read in the personal comment of board member, and all chapter are aware of that and will take it into account, or not, when the time will come. But we don't need your resignation now whereas the new election is already planned in just two month, the few week of difference will not affect the WCA. Also if you are personally disputed by people outside the chapter, the vice chair is at least equally disputed among the chapter, what's the most important?
>
>

Ilario

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Looking back at the London Conference

Manuel Schneider-3
In reply to this post by Michael Peel-4
The list already exists since several months but hasn't been used yet:

https://intern.wikimedia.ch/lists/listinfo/wca-announce

/Manuel

Am 19.02.2013 21:09, schrieb Michael Peel:

>
> On 19 Feb 2013, at 19:57, Thehelpfulone <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On 19 February 2013 16:10, Ziko van Dijk <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> There will be a special list 'WCA-announcements". If you want to be
>>> informed about Bulletins and discussions, join the list and you will
>>> get links to Meta Wiki. It's a one-way-list, because the discussions
>>> are supposed to be on Meta Wiki. This is a WCA service for Council
>>> Members and non Council Members alike. In this way, nobody is obliged
>>> to be on a heavy traffic list such as Wikimedia-l.
>>>
>>
>> Thanks Ziko, I'm happy to create this list for you on the Foundation
>> servers, please follow the instructions at
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists#Create_a_new_list to file a
>> bug. I'd suggest "WCA-Announce" to match our similar announcement lists for
>> MediaWiki, WLM, Toolserver etc and to keep it relatively short.
>
> Is there a reason why wikimediaannounce-l can't be used here?

--
Wikimedia CH - Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
Lausanne, +41 (21) 34066-22 - www.wikimedia.ch

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Looking back at the London Conference

Thehelpfulone
On 21 Feb 2013, at 13:01, Manuel Schneider <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The list already exists since several months but hasn't been used yet:
>
> https://intern.wikimedia.ch/lists/listinfo/wca-announce
>
> /Manuel

When I offered to create the list I considered that it would be better to have the list on WMF servers instead of the chapter server so someone looking at the main mailing list directory could find it more easily.

However, the point that WikimediaAnnounce-l could be used is a reasonable one, and it's likely that the audience who subscribe to that list would be interested in what the WCA is doing, given that the list is for 'movement' announcements and chapters/WCA are part of our movement.

Thehelpfulone
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Thehelpfulone
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