[Wikimedia-l] NSA

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[Wikimedia-l] NSA

Fred Bauder-2
See attachment.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/31/nsa-top-secret-program-online-data

Fred
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

Fred Bauder-2
> See attachment.
>
> http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/31/nsa-top-secret-program-online-data

"the NSA has created a multi-tiered system that allows analysts to store
"interesting" content in other databases, such as one named Pinwale which
can store material for up to five years. "

Fred


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

Huib Laurens
In reply to this post by Fred Bauder-2
How is this related to the foundation?


On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:22 PM, Fred Bauder <[hidden email]> wrote:

> See attachment.
>
>
> http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/31/nsa-top-secret-program-online-data
>
> Fred
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>



--
Met vriendelijke groet,

Huib Laurens
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

Risker
Apparently Wikipedia was or is one of the targeted websites.

Risker


On 31 July 2013 15:42, Huib Laurens <[hidden email]> wrote:

> How is this related to the foundation?
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:22 PM, Fred Bauder <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > See attachment.
> >
> >
> >
> http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/31/nsa-top-secret-program-online-data
> >
> > Fred
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Met vriendelijke groet,
>
> Huib Laurens
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

Huib Laurens
Hmmm, the word "wiki" isn't named anywhere.


On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:43 PM, Risker <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Apparently Wikipedia was or is one of the targeted websites.
>
> Risker
>
>
> On 31 July 2013 15:42, Huib Laurens <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > How is this related to the foundation?
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:22 PM, Fred Bauder <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > See attachment.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/31/nsa-top-secret-program-online-data
> > >
> > > Fred
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Met vriendelijke groet,
> >
> > Huib Laurens
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>



--
Met vriendelijke groet,

Huib Laurens
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

James Alexander-4
It's from a slide they have a bit down the page with our logal about why
they are interested in http. You can search for "nearly everything a
typical user does on the internet"

You can also see the slide on Jimmy's tweet about said issue:
https://twitter.com/jimmy_wales/status/362626509648834560

There is an ongoing thread on wikitech about https again stemming from this.

James

James Alexander
Legal and Community Advocacy
Wikimedia Foundation
(415) 839-6885 x6716 @jamesofur


On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 12:44 PM, Huib Laurens <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hmmm, the word "wiki" isn't named anywhere.
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:43 PM, Risker <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Apparently Wikipedia was or is one of the targeted websites.
> >
> > Risker
> >
> >
> > On 31 July 2013 15:42, Huib Laurens <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > How is this related to the foundation?
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:22 PM, Fred Bauder <[hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > See attachment.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/31/nsa-top-secret-program-online-data
> > > >
> > > > Fred
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Met vriendelijke groet,
> > >
> > > Huib Laurens
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Met vriendelijke groet,
>
> Huib Laurens
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

Risker
In reply to this post by Huib Laurens
I believe the concern derives from one of the subpages of the article:
https://image.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/audio/video/2013/7/31/1375269604628/KS8-001.jpg

(Credit to David Gerard for digging that out; this same issue is under
discussion on the Wikitech-L list.)

Risker


On 31 July 2013 15:44, Huib Laurens <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hmmm, the word "wiki" isn't named anywhere.
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:43 PM, Risker <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Apparently Wikipedia was or is one of the targeted websites.
> >
> > Risker
> >
> >
> > On 31 July 2013 15:42, Huib Laurens <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > How is this related to the foundation?
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:22 PM, Fred Bauder <[hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > See attachment.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/31/nsa-top-secret-program-online-data
> > > >
> > > > Fred
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Met vriendelijke groet,
> > >
> > > Huib Laurens
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Met vriendelijke groet,
>
> Huib Laurens
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

Fred Bauder-2
In reply to this post by Huib Laurens
Look at the attached image.

Fred

> Hmmm, the word "wiki" isn't named anywhere.
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:43 PM, Risker <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Apparently Wikipedia was or is one of the targeted websites.
>>
>> Risker
>>
>>
>> On 31 July 2013 15:42, Huib Laurens <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> > How is this related to the foundation?
>> >
>> >
>> > On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:22 PM, Fred Bauder <[hidden email]>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > > See attachment.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/31/nsa-top-secret-program-online-data
>> > >
>> > > Fred
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list
>> > > [hidden email]
>> > > Unsubscribe:
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Met vriendelijke groet,
>> >
>> > Huib Laurens
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Wikimedia-l mailing list
>> > [hidden email]
>> > Unsubscribe:
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Met vriendelijke groet,
>
> Huib Laurens
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

James Alexander-3
In reply to this post by Risker
On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 12:48 PM, Risker <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I believe the concern derives from one of the subpages of the article:
>
> https://image.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/audio/video/2013/7/31/1375269604628/KS8-001.jpg
>
> (Credit to David Gerard for digging that out; this same issue is under
> discussion on the Wikitech-L list.)
>
> Risker
>
>
Aye, it's a short bit down the page but included around screenshots and
explanations of the tools they use to analyze traffic by keyword (and so
what led to Jimmy's understandable reaction imo)

James
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

David Gerard-2
In reply to this post by Risker
On 31 July 2013 20:48, Risker <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I believe the concern derives from one of the subpages of the article:
> https://image.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/audio/video/2013/7/31/1375269604628/KS8-001.jpg
> (Credit to David Gerard for digging that out; this same issue is under
> discussion on the Wikitech-L list.)


Yes, that's the image that made me say out loud "Fuck. Fuck these people."


- d.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

David Gerard-2
On 31 July 2013 21:00, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 31 July 2013 20:48, Risker <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> I believe the concern derives from one of the subpages of the article:
>> https://image.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/audio/video/2013/7/31/1375269604628/KS8-001.jpg
>> (Credit to David Gerard for digging that out; this same issue is under
>> discussion on the Wikitech-L list.)

> Yes, that's the image that made me say out loud "Fuck. Fuck these people."


How DARE they use us as their example. HOW DARE THEY.


- d.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

Ryan Lane-3
On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 1:00 PM, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 31 July 2013 21:00, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On 31 July 2013 20:48, Risker <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> >> I believe the concern derives from one of the subpages of the article:
> >>
> https://image.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/audio/video/2013/7/31/1375269604628/KS8-001.jpg
> >> (Credit to David Gerard for digging that out; this same issue is under
> >> discussion on the Wikitech-L list.)
>
> > Yes, that's the image that made me say out loud "Fuck. Fuck these
> people."
>
>
> How DARE they use us as their example. HOW DARE THEY.
>
>
Why would we expect that we weren't being targeted? Knowing what people are
looking up is powerful knowledge.

- Ryan
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

David Gerard-2
On 31 July 2013 21:47, Ryan Lane <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Why would we expect that we weren't being targeted? Knowing what people are
> looking up is powerful knowledge.


That doesn't make it one dot less reprehensible.


- d.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

Keegan Peterzell
In reply to this post by Ryan Lane-3
On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 3:47 PM, Ryan Lane <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> >
> Why would we expect that we weren't being targeted? Knowing what people are
> looking up is powerful knowledge.
>
> - Ryan


Indeed.  It's much more safe and sensible to just go down to your library
and check out a book.

Oh, wait.

--
~Keegan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

Nathan Awrich
What surprises me is that anyone is surprised by any of this information.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

Matthew Walker
>
> What surprises me is that anyone is surprised by any of this information.


It's one thing to have suspicions and theories about it; but if the third
party is constantly denying the allegations and with no recourse there's no
point in getting angry. Now that we have reasonable doubt, I hesitate to
call it proof, we can start making tremendous amounts of noise.

~Matt Walker
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

Nathan Awrich
On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 5:53 PM, Matthew Walker <[hidden email]> wrote:

>>
>> What surprises me is that anyone is surprised by any of this information.
>
>
> It's one thing to have suspicions and theories about it; but if the third
> party is constantly denying the allegations and with no recourse there's no
> point in getting angry. Now that we have reasonable doubt, I hesitate to
> call it proof, we can start making tremendous amounts of noise.
>
> ~Matt Walker

I think that's just naive. Of course it was always denied until it
became impossible to deny it. That's how these things work. But I have
honestly assumed for many years that virtually everything transmitted
over almost any electronic medium was collected and analyzed in some
way. That appears to be the case, and in fact, I expected them to have
gone further than they have. It seems that most of the data they
collect is wiped within 3 days; that the data itself can only be
analyzed under a fairly specific set of minimization rules after the
approval of a senior executive in the administration, that the rules
are drawn from generally accepted 4th amendment jurisprudence, etc.

The cynic in me is also convinced that virtually all Western countries
do the same sort of thing, if probably on a smaller scale. I would bet
all the money I have that at a minimum the French, the English and the
Germans maintain roughly similar intelligence gathering programs. But
of course, they will deny it until it becomes impossible to deny it.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

David Gerard-2
On 31 July 2013 23:01, Nathan <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I think that's just naive. Of course it was always denied until it
> became impossible to deny it. That's how these things work. But I have
> honestly assumed for many years that virtually everything transmitted
> over almost any electronic medium was collected and analyzed in some
> way. That appears to be the case, and in fact, I expected them to have


Well done! You're very clever.


- d.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

Nathan Awrich
Thanks David. Always appreciate your wit.

That said, I wasn't claiming that anticipating being monitored was
exceptional. Quite the opposite; I said I was surprised there was
anyone who didn't already assume everything was trapped and traced.
Your reaction of "Fuck. Fuck these people." suggests you were
surprised they might be keeping tabs on Wikipedia. Although I wouldn't
take the use of the Wikipedia logo as complete confirmation (it could
just be an illustration, for the audience, of how much people use http
traffic), its hard to imagine most people would be shocked to learn
Wikipedia traffic isn't exempt from a dragnet that catches literally
everything else.

~Nathan

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

Nathan Awrich
And another thought - you know what unites most of the other companies
represented by the logos in that image? Leaks have confirmed that most
of them are the subject of secret orders to turn over huge amounts of
raw data to the government. They are all bound to secrecy by law, so
without permission none of them are permitted to describe or disclose
the nature or extent of the data demands the U.S. government has made.

Now if you imagine the puzzle globe on that slide implies that
Wikipedia traffic is retained for intelligence analysis, it's a short
hop to assume that the Wikimedia Foundation is also the subject of a
blanket order transferring its server logs to the NSA.

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