[Wikimedia-l] Net neutrality

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[Wikimedia-l] Net neutrality

Gerard Meijssen-3
Hoi,
With the demise of net neutrality in the USA, have their been consideration
for the impact it may have for the services provided by the Wikimedia
Foundation?

We are reliant on servers in the USA, as the quality of the service in the
USA is no longer a given, what are the risks?
Thanks,
      GerardM
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Net neutrality

Mz7 Wikipedia
The relationship between net neutrality and the Wikimedia Foundation has been described as “complicated” – see [1]. Considering the that the Wikimedia Foundation has a zero-rating program of its own (see [2][3]), I’m not exactly sure how much this would affect Wikimedia, whether positively or negatively. On the one hand, we could take advantage of the change by expanding Wikipedia Zero into the United States. On the other hand, that’s probably not a good idea because the program is designed to promote access to free knowledge in developing countries, where access to the Internet may be prohibitively expensive. In a developed country such as the United States, that’s not really a prioritized issue.

Mz7

[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2014/11/25/wikipedias-complicated-relationship-with-net-neutrality/
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_Zero
[3] https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Wikipedia_Zero

--
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Mz7

> On Nov 24, 2017, at 5:06 AM, Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hoi,
> With the demise of net neutrality in the USA, have their been consideration
> for the impact it may have for the services provided by the Wikimedia
> Foundation?
>
> We are reliant on servers in the USA, as the quality of the service in the
> USA is no longer a given, what are the risks?
> Thanks,
>      GerardM
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Net neutrality

Gerard Meijssen-3
Hoi,
While the USA is considered a developed country, the people in the USA who
have least to spend are probably as deserving of zero rated Wikimedia
service as many of the people who do get Wikipedia Zero elsewhere. The
article indicates that our mission is to bring information to people and
that is no different in the USA.  With Wikipedia and its sister projects
considered as a way to bring quality, neutral point of view information, it
would even serve as a means to combat the misinformation that will benefit
from zero rating of information.

Zero rating is bad in so many ways but your argument does only say that it
was originally intended for developed countries. When there is a benefit to
our readers I only see upsides in promoting the use of Wikimedia content in
this way and no reason not to have Wikimedia Zero in the USA.
Thanks,
      GerardM



On 26 November 2017 at 03:56, Mz7 <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The relationship between net neutrality and the Wikimedia Foundation has
> been described as “complicated” – see [1]. Considering the that the
> Wikimedia Foundation has a zero-rating program of its own (see [2][3]), I’m
> not exactly sure how much this would affect Wikimedia, whether positively
> or negatively. On the one hand, we could take advantage of the change by
> expanding Wikipedia Zero into the United States. On the other hand, that’s
> probably not a good idea because the program is designed to promote access
> to free knowledge in developing countries, where access to the Internet may
> be prohibitively expensive. In a developed country such as the United
> States, that’s not really a prioritized issue.
>
> Mz7
>
> [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2014/
> 11/25/wikipedias-complicated-relationship-with-net-neutrality/
> [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_Zero
> [3] https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Wikipedia_Zero
>
> --
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Mz7
>
> > On Nov 24, 2017, at 5:06 AM, Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hoi,
> > With the demise of net neutrality in the USA, have their been
> consideration
> > for the impact it may have for the services provided by the Wikimedia
> > Foundation?
> >
> > We are reliant on servers in the USA, as the quality of the service in
> the
> > USA is no longer a given, what are the risks?
> > Thanks,
> >      GerardM
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Net neutrality

Vi to
In reply to this post by Mz7 Wikipedia
In most of the "Western" Countries traffic plans for mobile users cannot be
significantly affected by traffic towards WMF sites. So WP0 should not be
expanded to "the North".

I'm actually puzzled by the possibility for providers to ask fees to WMF in
order to retain a decent quality of service .

Vito

2017-11-26 3:56 GMT+01:00 Mz7 <[hidden email]>:

> The relationship between net neutrality and the Wikimedia Foundation has
> been described as “complicated” – see [1]. Considering the that the
> Wikimedia Foundation has a zero-rating program of its own (see [2][3]), I’m
> not exactly sure how much this would affect Wikimedia, whether positively
> or negatively. On the one hand, we could take advantage of the change by
> expanding Wikipedia Zero into the United States. On the other hand, that’s
> probably not a good idea because the program is designed to promote access
> to free knowledge in developing countries, where access to the Internet may
> be prohibitively expensive. In a developed country such as the United
> States, that’s not really a prioritized issue.
>
> Mz7
>
> [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2014/
> 11/25/wikipedias-complicated-relationship-with-net-neutrality/
> [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_Zero
> [3] https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Wikipedia_Zero
>
> --
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Mz7
>
> > On Nov 24, 2017, at 5:06 AM, Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hoi,
> > With the demise of net neutrality in the USA, have their been
> consideration
> > for the impact it may have for the services provided by the Wikimedia
> > Foundation?
> >
> > We are reliant on servers in the USA, as the quality of the service in
> the
> > USA is no longer a given, what are the risks?
> > Thanks,
> >      GerardM
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Net neutrality

Vi to
In reply to this post by Gerard Meijssen-3
I have to rely upon my knowledge of plans in EU, I may be wrong with other
"rich Countries", if so please make me aware of.

Time-based tariffs are in "rich countries" are almost out of business. Also
data, cheaper data plans currently includes enough data to make surfing WMF
sites impact very few upon overall consumption. How can you tell "who" is
eligible for WP0? By "who" I mean which countries/places, telco users, etc.
A line between "rich" and "poor" countries is "easy" to draw, others aren't.

Making zero-carrier a default for all of the World would make me drop my
objections. But we firstly need to find a safe and cheap (in terms of
efforts) way to stop abuses, though most of abuses come from Countries
where data traffic is really expensive.

Finally a question: do we have reports about WP0? I mean, traffic, number
of users served, pages delivered, costs?

Vito

2017-11-26 4:32 GMT+01:00 Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]>:

> Hoi,
> While the USA is considered a developed country, the people in the USA who
> have least to spend are probably as deserving of zero rated Wikimedia
> service as many of the people who do get Wikipedia Zero elsewhere. The
> article indicates that our mission is to bring information to people and
> that is no different in the USA.  With Wikipedia and its sister projects
> considered as a way to bring quality, neutral point of view information, it
> would even serve as a means to combat the misinformation that will benefit
> from zero rating of information.
>
> Zero rating is bad in so many ways but your argument does only say that it
> was originally intended for developed countries. When there is a benefit to
> our readers I only see upsides in promoting the use of Wikimedia content in
> this way and no reason not to have Wikimedia Zero in the USA.
> Thanks,
>       GerardM
>
>
>
> On 26 November 2017 at 03:56, Mz7 <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > The relationship between net neutrality and the Wikimedia Foundation has
> > been described as “complicated” – see [1]. Considering the that the
> > Wikimedia Foundation has a zero-rating program of its own (see [2][3]),
> I’m
> > not exactly sure how much this would affect Wikimedia, whether positively
> > or negatively. On the one hand, we could take advantage of the change by
> > expanding Wikipedia Zero into the United States. On the other hand,
> that’s
> > probably not a good idea because the program is designed to promote
> access
> > to free knowledge in developing countries, where access to the Internet
> may
> > be prohibitively expensive. In a developed country such as the United
> > States, that’s not really a prioritized issue.
> >
> > Mz7
> >
> > [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2014/
> > 11/25/wikipedias-complicated-relationship-with-net-neutrality/
> > [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_Zero
> > [3] https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Wikipedia_Zero
> >
> > --
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Mz7
> >
> > > On Nov 24, 2017, at 5:06 AM, Gerard Meijssen <
> [hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Hoi,
> > > With the demise of net neutrality in the USA, have their been
> > consideration
> > > for the impact it may have for the services provided by the Wikimedia
> > > Foundation?
> > >
> > > We are reliant on servers in the USA, as the quality of the service in
> > the
> > > USA is no longer a given, what are the risks?
> > > Thanks,
> > >      GerardM
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Net neutrality

Todd Allen
It is rather unfortunate that we went ahead with things like "Wikipedia
Zero" without objection. It rather undermines our moral authority to demand
net neutrality, and now that's really needed. Someone could easily say "But
you support non-neutral schemes when it benefits you!", and not be far
wrong.

Todd

On Nov 26, 2017 2:49 AM, "Vi to" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I have to rely upon my knowledge of plans in EU, I may be wrong with other
> "rich Countries", if so please make me aware of.
>
> Time-based tariffs are in "rich countries" are almost out of business. Also
> data, cheaper data plans currently includes enough data to make surfing WMF
> sites impact very few upon overall consumption. How can you tell "who" is
> eligible for WP0? By "who" I mean which countries/places, telco users, etc.
> A line between "rich" and "poor" countries is "easy" to draw, others
> aren't.
>
> Making zero-carrier a default for all of the World would make me drop my
> objections. But we firstly need to find a safe and cheap (in terms of
> efforts) way to stop abuses, though most of abuses come from Countries
> where data traffic is really expensive.
>
> Finally a question: do we have reports about WP0? I mean, traffic, number
> of users served, pages delivered, costs?
>
> Vito
>
> 2017-11-26 4:32 GMT+01:00 Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]>:
>
> > Hoi,
> > While the USA is considered a developed country, the people in the USA
> who
> > have least to spend are probably as deserving of zero rated Wikimedia
> > service as many of the people who do get Wikipedia Zero elsewhere. The
> > article indicates that our mission is to bring information to people and
> > that is no different in the USA.  With Wikipedia and its sister projects
> > considered as a way to bring quality, neutral point of view information,
> it
> > would even serve as a means to combat the misinformation that will
> benefit
> > from zero rating of information.
> >
> > Zero rating is bad in so many ways but your argument does only say that
> it
> > was originally intended for developed countries. When there is a benefit
> to
> > our readers I only see upsides in promoting the use of Wikimedia content
> in
> > this way and no reason not to have Wikimedia Zero in the USA.
> > Thanks,
> >       GerardM
> >
> >
> >
> > On 26 November 2017 at 03:56, Mz7 <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > The relationship between net neutrality and the Wikimedia Foundation
> has
> > > been described as “complicated” – see [1]. Considering the that the
> > > Wikimedia Foundation has a zero-rating program of its own (see [2][3]),
> > I’m
> > > not exactly sure how much this would affect Wikimedia, whether
> positively
> > > or negatively. On the one hand, we could take advantage of the change
> by
> > > expanding Wikipedia Zero into the United States. On the other hand,
> > that’s
> > > probably not a good idea because the program is designed to promote
> > access
> > > to free knowledge in developing countries, where access to the Internet
> > may
> > > be prohibitively expensive. In a developed country such as the United
> > > States, that’s not really a prioritized issue.
> > >
> > > Mz7
> > >
> > > [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2014/
> > > 11/25/wikipedias-complicated-relationship-with-net-neutrality/
> > > [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_Zero
> > > [3] https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Wikipedia_Zero
> > >
> > > --
> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Mz7
> > >
> > > > On Nov 24, 2017, at 5:06 AM, Gerard Meijssen <
> > [hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hoi,
> > > > With the demise of net neutrality in the USA, have their been
> > > consideration
> > > > for the impact it may have for the services provided by the Wikimedia
> > > > Foundation?
> > > >
> > > > We are reliant on servers in the USA, as the quality of the service
> in
> > > the
> > > > USA is no longer a given, what are the risks?
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >      GerardM
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
> mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Net neutrality

Gnangarra
What Net Neutrality is talking about is not creating a payTV format where
you pay for channels(sites)  more you pay the more you can access.
 Wikipedia Zero is different as its focus isnt on accessing the site its
about making that access free from mobile/cell data charges in place where
the primary net connection is via mobile/cell services.

What I'm reading is a conflagration between freely accessing Wikipedia as a
site(or any other site) and getting that data free as in beer.   Its like
driving a car on the road net neutrality is being able to drive on the road
without tolls and WP0 is about fuel economy of the vehicle you drive

On 27 November 2017 at 16:29, Todd Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> It is rather unfortunate that we went ahead with things like "Wikipedia
> Zero" without objection. It rather undermines our moral authority to demand
> net neutrality, and now that's really needed. Someone could easily say "But
> you support non-neutral schemes when it benefits you!", and not be far
> wrong.
>
> Todd
>
> On Nov 26, 2017 2:49 AM, "Vi to" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > I have to rely upon my knowledge of plans in EU, I may be wrong with
> other
> > "rich Countries", if so please make me aware of.
> >
> > Time-based tariffs are in "rich countries" are almost out of business.
> Also
> > data, cheaper data plans currently includes enough data to make surfing
> WMF
> > sites impact very few upon overall consumption. How can you tell "who" is
> > eligible for WP0? By "who" I mean which countries/places, telco users,
> etc.
> > A line between "rich" and "poor" countries is "easy" to draw, others
> > aren't.
> >
> > Making zero-carrier a default for all of the World would make me drop my
> > objections. But we firstly need to find a safe and cheap (in terms of
> > efforts) way to stop abuses, though most of abuses come from Countries
> > where data traffic is really expensive.
> >
> > Finally a question: do we have reports about WP0? I mean, traffic, number
> > of users served, pages delivered, costs?
> >
> > Vito
> >
> > 2017-11-26 4:32 GMT+01:00 Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]>:
> >
> > > Hoi,
> > > While the USA is considered a developed country, the people in the USA
> > who
> > > have least to spend are probably as deserving of zero rated Wikimedia
> > > service as many of the people who do get Wikipedia Zero elsewhere. The
> > > article indicates that our mission is to bring information to people
> and
> > > that is no different in the USA.  With Wikipedia and its sister
> projects
> > > considered as a way to bring quality, neutral point of view
> information,
> > it
> > > would even serve as a means to combat the misinformation that will
> > benefit
> > > from zero rating of information.
> > >
> > > Zero rating is bad in so many ways but your argument does only say that
> > it
> > > was originally intended for developed countries. When there is a
> benefit
> > to
> > > our readers I only see upsides in promoting the use of Wikimedia
> content
> > in
> > > this way and no reason not to have Wikimedia Zero in the USA.
> > > Thanks,
> > >       GerardM
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 26 November 2017 at 03:56, Mz7 <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > The relationship between net neutrality and the Wikimedia Foundation
> > has
> > > > been described as “complicated” – see [1]. Considering the that the
> > > > Wikimedia Foundation has a zero-rating program of its own (see
> [2][3]),
> > > I’m
> > > > not exactly sure how much this would affect Wikimedia, whether
> > positively
> > > > or negatively. On the one hand, we could take advantage of the change
> > by
> > > > expanding Wikipedia Zero into the United States. On the other hand,
> > > that’s
> > > > probably not a good idea because the program is designed to promote
> > > access
> > > > to free knowledge in developing countries, where access to the
> Internet
> > > may
> > > > be prohibitively expensive. In a developed country such as the United
> > > > States, that’s not really a prioritized issue.
> > > >
> > > > Mz7
> > > >
> > > > [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2014/
> > > > 11/25/wikipedias-complicated-relationship-with-net-neutrality/
> > > > [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_Zero
> > > > [3] https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Wikipedia_Zero
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Mz7
> > > >
> > > > > On Nov 24, 2017, at 5:06 AM, Gerard Meijssen <
> > > [hidden email]>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hoi,
> > > > > With the demise of net neutrality in the USA, have their been
> > > > consideration
> > > > > for the impact it may have for the services provided by the
> Wikimedia
> > > > > Foundation?
> > > > >
> > > > > We are reliant on servers in the USA, as the quality of the service
> > in
> > > > the
> > > > > USA is no longer a given, what are the risks?
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > >      GerardM
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
> > mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
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--
GN.
Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page
WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
Out now: A.Gaynor, P. Newman and P. Jennings (eds.), *Never Again:
Reflections on Environmental Responsibility after Roe 8*, UWAP, 2017.  Order
here
<https://uwap.uwa.edu.au/products/never-again-reflections-on-environmental-responsibility-after-roe-8>
.
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