[Wikimedia-l] Open letter from Wikimedia Argentina regarding URAA

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
48 messages Options
123
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

[Wikimedia-l] Open letter from Wikimedia Argentina regarding URAA

Galileo Vidoni
Dear movement fellows,

Wikimedia Argentina would like to express its support for the letter by
Wikimedia Israel regarding URAA-motivated massive content deletions in
Wikimedia Commons. Yet, we would like to express our view not only to the
Foundation BoT but also to all Wikimedia editors, and especially to those
working in Wikimedia Commons.

Volunteers from Argentina have been among the most affected by the policy
adopted by Wikimedia Commons administrators regarding images that could
fall under URAA copyright provisions. Argentine copyright law provides that
images enter the public domain "only" 25 years after their production and
20 after their first documented publication. This relatively generous
criterion has enabled unaffiliated volunteers and we as Wikimedia Argentina
to enrich Commons with hundreds of thousands of historical images that are
absolutely free under Argentine law: images of the political and every day
life of the country, of its culture, of its popular idols, of its joyful
and dark days, of its customs and architecture.

However, over the last months certain Wikimedia Commons administrators have
conducted massive deletions of these contents, in many cases involving
entire categories. The burden of proof has been inverted: instead of having
to justify the deletion of a certain file, things go that volunteers have
to devout their time trying to justify the validity of their efforts. This
has caused great damage, not only by way of our readers loosing access to
free educational contents, but also de-motivating many editors and
volunteers by making them feel that their efforts are ultimately vain and
that our goal of free knowledge for everyone is being replaced by a certain
legal fetishism whose reason gets lost in processes and misses the outcome.

We acknowledge that the Wikimedia Foundation BoT and its Legal team have
repeatedly stated, as has been reinforced in recent communications, that
images shouldn't be deleted unless we receive a takedown notice, and that
it has not received a single URAA-motivated notice to date. Certain
Wikimedia Commons administrators have dismissed the Foundation's statement
as a mere opinion vis-à-vis the SCOTUS ruling. Yet, it is an opinion by the
organization that is legally responsible for the contents being hosted in
Wikimedia Commons.

We respectfully call the Wikimedia Commons community to reflect on the
practical consequences of its current policy on URAA's implementation.
Those files generating potential conflict could be even identified as such
without the need for a pre-emptive deletion. And we would like the Commons
community to reflect not only on the preventive loss of free contents we
are generating, but also on the harmful disconnection between Wikimedia
Commons and all of the other Wikimedia projects it serves as media
repository, mostly Wikipedia.

Many years ago, the editors of the Spanish Wikipedia decided to close the
possibility to directly host images, choosing instead to use Wikimedia
Commons. If we miss the opportunity to find a workaround that saves
hundreds of thousands of images from an unrequested deletion that hurts our
very mission, Wikipedia editors could ultimately evaluate reversing that
decision, reopening "project-hosted" uploads just to avoid the restrictive
and exclusionary URAA interpretation that Wikimedia Commons has been
sustaining against the Foundation's political and legal advice. That would
be far from being an optimal outcome.

We are sure that we as the broader community of Wikimedia volunteers can
find a common ground that permits to adapt to all legal conditions and
challenges while putting in the first place the fulfillment of our goal
towards free knowledge.

Approved by the Board of Wikimedia Argentina on February 22, 2014
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open letter from Wikimedia Argentina regarding URAA

David Gerard-2
On 24 February 2014 20:51, Galileo Vidoni <[hidden email]> wrote:

> However, over the last months certain Wikimedia Commons administrators have
> conducted massive deletions of these contents, in many cases involving
> entire categories. The burden of proof has been inverted: instead of having
> to justify the deletion of a certain file, things go that volunteers have
> to devout their time trying to justify the validity of their efforts. This
> has caused great damage, not only by way of our readers loosing access to
> free educational contents, but also de-motivating many editors and
> volunteers by making them feel that their efforts are ultimately vain and
> that our goal of free knowledge for everyone is being replaced by a certain
> legal fetishism whose reason gets lost in processes and misses the outcome.


This strongly suggests that URAA is a good reason to deprecate
Commons, and have language wikis self-host images that fail the more
unduly stringent requirements Commons is manifesting these days.


- d.

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open letter from Wikimedia Argentina regarding URAA

Lionel Allorge (lionel.allorge@lunerouge.org)
In reply to this post by Galileo Vidoni
Hi,

...
> Many years ago, the editors of the Spanish Wikipedia decided to close the
> possibility to directly host images, choosing instead to use Wikimedia
> Commons. If we miss the opportunity to find a workaround that saves
> hundreds of thousands of images from an unrequested deletion that hurts our
> very mission, Wikipedia editors could ultimately evaluate reversing that
> decision, reopening "project-hosted" uploads just to avoid the restrictive
> and exclusionary URAA interpretation that Wikimedia Commons has been
> sustaining against the Foundation's political and legal advice. That would
> be far from being an optimal outcome.

The french version of Wikipedia <http://fr.wikipedia.org> is already doing
that by keeping pictures of recent buildings that got erased from Commons. So
I think you should do exactly the same and keep all those documents in your
local Wikipedia until they become Free enough for Commons.

If you can read french, the decision is here :
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Prise_de_d%C3%A9cision/Remise_en_cause_de_l%27exception_au_droit_d%27auteur_sur_les_b%C3%A2timents_r%C3%A9cents

Best regards.

--
Lionel Allorge
April : http://www.april.org
Lune Rouge : http://www.lunerouge.org
Wikimedia France : http://wikimedia.fr


_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open letter from Wikimedia Argentina regarding URAA

Yann Forget-3
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2
Hi,

2014-02-26 16:01 GMT+05:30 David Gerard <[hidden email]>:

> On 24 February 2014 20:51, Galileo Vidoni <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > However, over the last months certain Wikimedia Commons administrators
> have
> > conducted massive deletions of these contents, in many cases involving
> > entire categories. The burden of proof has been inverted: instead of
> having
> > to justify the deletion of a certain file, things go that volunteers have
> > to devout their time trying to justify the validity of their efforts.
> This
> > has caused great damage, not only by way of our readers loosing access to
> > free educational contents, but also de-motivating many editors and
> > volunteers by making them feel that their efforts are ultimately vain and
> > that our goal of free knowledge for everyone is being replaced by a
> certain
> > legal fetishism whose reason gets lost in processes and misses the
> outcome.
>
> This strongly suggests that URAA is a good reason to deprecate
> Commons, and have language wikis self-host images that fail the more
> unduly stringent requirements Commons is manifesting these days.
>

If only some Commons admins were not pursuing a political campaign to
delete all these under false pretences, everything would be much better.

Regards,

Yann
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open letter from Wikimedia Argentina regarding URAA

Galileo Vidoni
Thanks for your replies. We'll surely take the French precedent into
account if Commons' admins fail to reconsider the current policies and we
propose hosting images on the Spanish Wikipedia. By the way, I forgot to
mention that we've also published this letter on Meta and that there's also
an ongoing discussion there:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Argentina/Open_letter_regarding_URAA

Best,

Galileo


On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 2:42 PM, Yann Forget <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> 2014-02-26 16:01 GMT+05:30 David Gerard <[hidden email]>:
>
> > On 24 February 2014 20:51, Galileo Vidoni <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > However, over the last months certain Wikimedia Commons administrators
> > have
> > > conducted massive deletions of these contents, in many cases involving
> > > entire categories. The burden of proof has been inverted: instead of
> > having
> > > to justify the deletion of a certain file, things go that volunteers
> have
> > > to devout their time trying to justify the validity of their efforts.
> > This
> > > has caused great damage, not only by way of our readers loosing access
> to
> > > free educational contents, but also de-motivating many editors and
> > > volunteers by making them feel that their efforts are ultimately vain
> and
> > > that our goal of free knowledge for everyone is being replaced by a
> > certain
> > > legal fetishism whose reason gets lost in processes and misses the
> > outcome.
> >
> > This strongly suggests that URAA is a good reason to deprecate
> > Commons, and have language wikis self-host images that fail the more
> > unduly stringent requirements Commons is manifesting these days.
> >
>
> If only some Commons admins were not pursuing a political campaign to
> delete all these under false pretences, everything would be much better.
>
> Regards,
>
> Yann
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open letter from Wikimedia Argentina regarding URAA

geni
In reply to this post by Galileo Vidoni
On 24 February 2014 20:51, Galileo Vidoni <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Dear movement fellows,
>
> Wikimedia Argentina would like to express its support for the letter by
> Wikimedia Israel regarding URAA-motivated massive content deletions in
> Wikimedia Commons. Yet, we would like to express our view not only to the
> Foundation BoT but also to all Wikimedia editors, and especially to those
> working in Wikimedia Commons.
>
> Volunteers from Argentina have been among the most affected by the policy
> adopted by Wikimedia Commons administrators regarding images that could
> fall under URAA copyright provisions. Argentine copyright law provides that
> images enter the public domain "only" 25 years after their production and
> 20 after their first documented publication.


You really should cite the relevant law if you want commons to pay
attention to you.

Okey I get that the 20 years come from Article 34 but I'm not sure where
the 25 years comes from.



> This relatively generous
> criterion has enabled unaffiliated volunteers and we as Wikimedia Argentina
> to enrich Commons with hundreds of thousands of historical images that are
> absolutely free under Argentine law: images of the political and every day
> life of the country, of its culture, of its popular idols, of its joyful
> and dark days, of its customs and architecture.
>


Absolutely free? Not so. Due to Article 31 pretty much any photo that shows
a person who hasn't been dead for 20 years isn't free (this is a side
effect of Argentina going for a rather extreme form of personality rights)


I'd also advise you against hosting locally. Under Article 72 bis (d)
copyright violations can carry a prison sentence.


--
geni
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open letter from Wikimedia Argentina regarding URAA

Galileo Vidoni
[Sorry for this excurse]

Dear Geni, the 20 years indeed come from article 24 of law 11 723. The 25
years come from the Berne Convention. In any case, Argentine copyright law
is already known and documented in Commons, and we have been using a
specific template (PD-AR-Photo) for years. Regarding article 31,
personality rights do not apply to public activities; what the law is
protecting are private portraits in particular: "Publication of portraits
is free when related with scientific, didactical and in general cultural
goals, or with facts or events in the public interest or that have
developed in public".

Best,

Galileo


On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 6:51 PM, geni <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 24 February 2014 20:51, Galileo Vidoni <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Dear movement fellows,
> >
> > Wikimedia Argentina would like to express its support for the letter by
> > Wikimedia Israel regarding URAA-motivated massive content deletions in
> > Wikimedia Commons. Yet, we would like to express our view not only to the
> > Foundation BoT but also to all Wikimedia editors, and especially to those
> > working in Wikimedia Commons.
> >
> > Volunteers from Argentina have been among the most affected by the policy
> > adopted by Wikimedia Commons administrators regarding images that could
> > fall under URAA copyright provisions. Argentine copyright law provides
> that
> > images enter the public domain "only" 25 years after their production and
> > 20 after their first documented publication.
>
>
> You really should cite the relevant law if you want commons to pay
> attention to you.
>
> Okey I get that the 20 years come from Article 34 but I'm not sure where
> the 25 years comes from.
>
>
>
> > This relatively generous
> > criterion has enabled unaffiliated volunteers and we as Wikimedia
> Argentina
> > to enrich Commons with hundreds of thousands of historical images that
> are
> > absolutely free under Argentine law: images of the political and every
> day
> > life of the country, of its culture, of its popular idols, of its joyful
> > and dark days, of its customs and architecture.
> >
>
>
> Absolutely free? Not so. Due to Article 31 pretty much any photo that shows
> a person who hasn't been dead for 20 years isn't free (this is a side
> effect of Argentina going for a rather extreme form of personality rights)
>
>
> I'd also advise you against hosting locally. Under Article 72 bis (d)
> copyright violations can carry a prison sentence.
>
>
> --
> geni
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open letter from Wikimedia Argentina regarding URAA

geni
On 26 February 2014 22:39, Galileo Vidoni <[hidden email]> wrote:

> [Sorry for this excurse]
>
> Dear Geni, the 20 years indeed come from article 24 of law 11 723. The 25
> years come from the Berne Convention.


But that merely established a minimum under international law. Unless you
have some case law that says otherwise I'd suggest that article 6 applies
to unpublished photographs which results in an effective term of life+10
for unpublished photographs (although life+30 could be gained through
careful timing of publication).



> In any case, Argentine copyright law
> is already known and documented in Commons, and we have been using a
> specific template (PD-AR-Photo) for years.


See the last section of the template talk page which covers some of the
issues the template has with US law. I'm afraid years of use doesn't mean
that it has been reviewed by common's more serious copyright nerds.



--
geni
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open letter from Wikimedia Argentina regarding URAA

Pierre-Selim
Still no explanation (nor appologies) on usage of inappropriate wording
towards volunteer by the board of Wikimedia Argentina.

It quite amazing when almost all projects have policies on civility ...


2014-02-27 0:24 GMT+01:00 geni <[hidden email]>:

> On 26 February 2014 22:39, Galileo Vidoni <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > [Sorry for this excurse]
> >
> > Dear Geni, the 20 years indeed come from article 24 of law 11 723. The 25
> > years come from the Berne Convention.
>
>
> But that merely established a minimum under international law. Unless you
> have some case law that says otherwise I'd suggest that article 6 applies
> to unpublished photographs which results in an effective term of life+10
> for unpublished photographs (although life+30 could be gained through
> careful timing of publication).
>
>
>
> > In any case, Argentine copyright law
> > is already known and documented in Commons, and we have been using a
> > specific template (PD-AR-Photo) for years.
>
>
> See the last section of the template talk page which covers some of the
> issues the template has with US law. I'm afraid years of use doesn't mean
> that it has been reviewed by common's more serious copyright nerds.
>
>
>
> --
> geni
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>



--
Pierre-Selim
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open letter from Wikimedia Argentina regarding URAA

Avenue
To be fair, Galio has apologised multiple times (not for the wording, but
"if you feel offended") on the letter's meta talk
page<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Argentina/Open_letter_regarding_URAA>.
There is much discussion there of what was really meant, and the problems
with the letter's wording.

I think WM Argentina has a legitimate point to make about the wasted work
of its members, so it's a shame that it was expressed in such a way.


On Fri, Feb 28, 2014 at 8:19 AM, Pierre-Selim <[hidden email]>wrote:

> Still no explanation (nor appologies) on usage of inappropriate wording
> towards volunteer by the board of Wikimedia Argentina.
>
> It quite amazing when almost all projects have policies on civility ...
>
>
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open letter from Wikimedia Argentina regarding URAA

Carlos M. Colina
In reply to this post by Pierre-Selim
And what about the [apparently lack of] self-criticism of some Commons
sysops/admins?

I think being able to accept criticism and moreover being able to say
"hey, somebody is questioning what we do. Why would that be?" instead of
plainly rejecting any questioning, is one essential part of civility..

M

El 27/02/2014 09:19 p.m., Pierre-Selim escribió:

> Still no explanation (nor appologies) on usage of inappropriate wording
> towards volunteer by the board of Wikimedia Argentina.
>
> It quite amazing when almost all projects have policies on civility ...
>
>
> 2014-02-27 0:24 GMT+01:00 geni <[hidden email]>:
>
>> On 26 February 2014 22:39, Galileo Vidoni <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> [Sorry for this excurse]
>>>
>>> Dear Geni, the 20 years indeed come from article 24 of law 11 723. The 25
>>> years come from the Berne Convention.
>>
>> But that merely established a minimum under international law. Unless you
>> have some case law that says otherwise I'd suggest that article 6 applies
>> to unpublished photographs which results in an effective term of life+10
>> for unpublished photographs (although life+30 could be gained through
>> careful timing of publication).
>>
>>
>>
>>> In any case, Argentine copyright law
>>> is already known and documented in Commons, and we have been using a
>>> specific template (PD-AR-Photo) for years.
>>
>> See the last section of the template talk page which covers some of the
>> issues the template has with US law. I'm afraid years of use doesn't mean
>> that it has been reviewed by common's more serious copyright nerds.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> geni
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>
>
>

--
"*Jülüjain wane mmakat* ein kapülain tü alijunakalirua jee wayuukanairua
junain ekerolaa alümüin supüshuwayale etijaanaka. Ayatashi waya junain."
Carlos Manuel Colina
Vicepresidente
A.C. Wikimedia Venezuela
RIF J-40129321-2
+972-52-4869915
www.wikimedia.org.ve
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open letter from Wikimedia Argentina regarding URAA

Galileo Vidoni
Not to mention demanding excuses and delivering such high expressions of
politesse as this one:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AWikimedia_Argentina%2FOpen_letter_regarding_URAA&diff=7665183&oldid=7665158

I'll repeat it here for the record: I'm sorry and I offer our apologies if
any Commons admin felt offended or personally touched by our words. We keep
them, though, because the situation that motivated us to make our voice
heard in that terms has not changed. It is always hard to find the exact
tone in a multilingual community as ours, even including cultural
disagreements about the nature of open letters as Cristian has noted. Our
language was intended to be hard, not rude, and I apologize if anyone
considers we crossed that line.

We remain convinced that something is fundamentally wrong when its
practical result is self-inflicting the highest possible loss of contents.
And we remain convinced that there is space for a way more prudent
implementation of URAA that prevents deleting educational resources until
there is complete copyright information and no legal alternative, which to
our understanding (and to our interpretation of WMF's communications) can
mean waiting for DMCA takedown notices.

Best,

Galileo


On Thu, Feb 27, 2014 at 6:47 PM, Carlos M. Colina <[hidden email]>wrote:

> And what about the [apparently lack of] self-criticism of some Commons
> sysops/admins?
>
> I think being able to accept criticism and moreover being able to say
> "hey, somebody is questioning what we do. Why would that be?" instead of
> plainly rejecting any questioning, is one essential part of civility..
>
> M
>
> El 27/02/2014 09:19 p.m., Pierre-Selim escribió:
>
>  Still no explanation (nor appologies) on usage of inappropriate wording
>> towards volunteer by the board of Wikimedia Argentina.
>>
>> It quite amazing when almost all projects have policies on civility ...
>>
>>
>> 2014-02-27 0:24 GMT+01:00 geni <[hidden email]>:
>>
>>  On 26 February 2014 22:39, Galileo Vidoni <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>  [Sorry for this excurse]
>>>>
>>>> Dear Geni, the 20 years indeed come from article 24 of law 11 723. The
>>>> 25
>>>> years come from the Berne Convention.
>>>>
>>>
>>> But that merely established a minimum under international law. Unless you
>>> have some case law that says otherwise I'd suggest that article 6 applies
>>> to unpublished photographs which results in an effective term of life+10
>>> for unpublished photographs (although life+30 could be gained through
>>> careful timing of publication).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  In any case, Argentine copyright law
>>>> is already known and documented in Commons, and we have been using a
>>>> specific template (PD-AR-Photo) for years.
>>>>
>>>
>>> See the last section of the template talk page which covers some of the
>>> issues the template has with US law. I'm afraid years of use doesn't mean
>>> that it has been reviewed by common's more serious copyright nerds.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> geni
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
> --
> "*Jülüjain wane mmakat* ein kapülain tü alijunakalirua jee wayuukanairua
> junain ekerolaa alümüin supüshuwayale etijaanaka. Ayatashi waya junain."
> Carlos Manuel Colina
> Vicepresidente
> A.C. Wikimedia Venezuela
> RIF J-40129321-2
> +972-52-4869915
> www.wikimedia.org.ve
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open letter from Wikimedia Argentina regarding URAA

David Gerard-2
On 27 February 2014 22:03, Galileo Vidoni <[hidden email]> wrote:

> We remain convinced that something is fundamentally wrong when its
> practical result is self-inflicting the highest possible loss of contents.
> And we remain convinced that there is space for a way more prudent
> implementation of URAA that prevents deleting educational resources until
> there is complete copyright information and no legal alternative, which to
> our understanding (and to our interpretation of WMF's communications) can
> mean waiting for DMCA takedown notices.


This is the essential point of the problem:

* Commons has a long-running attitude of absolute copyright paranoia,
so that no reuser will ever be put in legal danger. This is extremely
unlikely to change, and particularly not with what the Commons
community perceive as outside intruders (rather than e.g. its main
users) coming in to question it.
* Commons policy is, here, being directly damaging to the projects who
are its main users.

At this point, Commons policy constitutes damage and needs to be worked around.

Note that this implies no bad faith or bad actions on the part of
Commons admins; just that Commons' aims are increasingly incompatible
with the rest of the movement.


- d.

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open letter from Wikimedia Argentina regarding URAA

Nathan Awrich
On Thu, Feb 27, 2014 at 5:56 PM, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 27 February 2014 22:03, Galileo Vidoni <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > We remain convinced that something is fundamentally wrong when its
> > practical result is self-inflicting the highest possible loss of
> contents.
> > And we remain convinced that there is space for a way more prudent
> > implementation of URAA that prevents deleting educational resources until
> > there is complete copyright information and no legal alternative, which
> to
> > our understanding (and to our interpretation of WMF's communications) can
> > mean waiting for DMCA takedown notices.
>
>
> This is the essential point of the problem:
>
> * Commons has a long-running attitude of absolute copyright paranoia,
> so that no reuser will ever be put in legal danger. This is extremely
> unlikely to change, and particularly not with what the Commons
> community perceive as outside intruders (rather than e.g. its main
> users) coming in to question it.
> * Commons policy is, here, being directly damaging to the projects who
> are its main users.
>
> At this point, Commons policy constitutes damage and needs to be worked
> around.
>
> Note that this implies no bad faith or bad actions on the part of
> Commons admins; just that Commons' aims are increasingly incompatible
> with the rest of the movement.
>
>
> - d.
>
>
I was going to just repeat the point that any community that wants a more
liberal interpretation of the rules can host its own images, but then I
thought through the implications of that... Sure, the individual projects
would have more liberty than they do relying on Commons, but if each
community hives off its uploading then the meta community no longer
benefits from that work.

Which led to the thought that hey, what we really need is a meta-project
for hosting images that is *explicitly* intended to serve the other
projects. We tried this before, right? But maybe this time we make the
meta-project a technical implementation without its own community, where
local uploads can be toggled to make files globally available without
giving some global intermediary the right to turn that toggle off.
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open letter from Wikimedia Argentina regarding URAA

geni
In reply to this post by Galileo Vidoni
On 27 February 2014 22:03, Galileo Vidoni <[hidden email]> wrote:

> We remain convinced that something is fundamentally wrong when its
> practical result is self-inflicting the highest possible loss of contents.
>


No that would come from accepting the sweat of the brow doctrine.


> And we remain convinced that there is space for a way more prudent
> implementation of URAA that prevents deleting educational resources until
> there is complete copyright information and no legal alternative, which to
> our understanding (and to our interpretation of WMF's communications) can
> mean waiting for DMCA takedown notices.
>

We could do that but it pretty much removes commons only advantage over say
imgur or flickr. We want the images on commons to be free. Not simply stuff
no one has got around to complaining about yet,




--
geni
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open letter from Wikimedia Argentina regarding URAA

geni
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2
On 27 February 2014 22:56, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> This is the essential point of the problem:
>
> * Commons has a long-running attitude of absolute copyright paranoia,
> so that no reuser will ever be put in legal danger. This is extremely
> unlikely to change, and particularly not with what the Commons
> community perceive as outside intruders (rather than e.g. its main
> users) coming in to question it.
>

Not true. If anything commons copyright policy tends towards the legally
aggressive. A lot of that involves finding and exploiting loopholes.
However the other side of that involves obeying copyright law to the
letter. Its far easier to defend the edge cases if we have a solid record
of respecting the law as it stands at this present time.

Now if someone could get the US to follow the law of the shorter term that
would simplify things somewhat.


--
geni
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open letter from Wikimedia Argentina regarding URAA

David Gerard-2
In reply to this post by geni
On 28 February 2014 01:23, geni <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 27 February 2014 22:03, Galileo Vidoni <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> And we remain convinced that there is space for a way more prudent
>> implementation of URAA that prevents deleting educational resources until
>> there is complete copyright information and no legal alternative, which to
>> our understanding (and to our interpretation of WMF's communications) can
>> mean waiting for DMCA takedown notices.

> We could do that but it pretty much removes commons only advantage over say
> imgur or flickr. We want the images on commons to be free. Not simply stuff
> no one has got around to complaining about yet,


This supports what I noted: Commons increasingly just can't be relied
upon as a repository for the other Wikimedia projects.

This implies no bad faith or bad actions on the part of the Commons
community. (But that that's a distinct thing from the Wikimedia
community is a lot of the problem.) Nor that what Commons *is* is
inherently problematic; but what it is is less and less useful inside
Wikimedia.


- d.

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open letter from Wikimedia Argentina regarding URAA

Mark
On 2/28/14, 9:18 AM, David Gerard wrote:

> On 28 February 2014 01:23, geni <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On 27 February 2014 22:03, Galileo Vidoni <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> And we remain convinced that there is space for a way more prudent
>>> implementation of URAA that prevents deleting educational resources until
>>> there is complete copyright information and no legal alternative, which to
>>> our understanding (and to our interpretation of WMF's communications) can
>>> mean waiting for DMCA takedown notices.
>> We could do that but it pretty much removes commons only advantage over say
>> imgur or flickr. We want the images on commons to be free. Not simply stuff
>> no one has got around to complaining about yet,
>
> This supports what I noted: Commons increasingly just can't be relied
> upon as a repository for the other Wikimedia projects.
>
> This implies no bad faith or bad actions on the part of the Commons
> community. (But that that's a distinct thing from the Wikimedia
> community is a lot of the problem.) Nor that what Commons *is* is
> inherently problematic; but what it is is less and less useful inside
> Wikimedia.

But the other Wikimedia projects are *also* supposed to share that goal:
of producing a Free-as-in-freedom encyclopedia whose contents can be
safely reused and adapted by a wide range of other people and
organizations, who should be able to assume that it is legal to do so
without exhaustive case-by-case investigation. The movement's main job
is not merely hosting the websites *.wikipedia.org, putting up whatever
we find useful to put up, and taking down things when we get complaints
or lawsuits.

What level of scrutiny we want to apply is indeed a judgment call, so
and I don't know if the current URAA policy falls on the right or wrong
side of that (I haven't investigated it). But I don't think the
fundamental goals are different. And if they are, it's the other
projects that are in the wrong: *not* having a free, reusable body of
content as the project goal is fundamentally incompatible with the
Wikimedia Movement. We want the content on all Wikimedia wikis to be
free-as-in-freedom and reusable by anyone. That's the point.

-Mark


_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open letter from Wikimedia Argentina regarding URAA

Yann Forget-3
In reply to this post by geni
2014-02-28 7:00 GMT+05:30 geni <[hidden email]>:

> On 27 February 2014 22:56, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > This is the essential point of the problem:
> >
> > * Commons has a long-running attitude of absolute copyright paranoia,
> > so that no reuser will ever be put in legal danger. This is extremely
> > unlikely to change, and particularly not with what the Commons
> > community perceive as outside intruders (rather than e.g. its main
> > users) coming in to question it.
> >
>
> Not true. If anything commons copyright policy tends towards the legally
>
(...)

Yes, that is sadly true. David hit the nail on the head very well.


> aggressive. A lot of that involves finding and exploiting loopholes.
> However the other side of that involves obeying copyright law to the
> letter. Its far easier to defend the edge cases if we have a solid record
> of respecting the law as it stands at this present time.
>
> Now if someone could get the US to follow the law of the shorter term that
> would simplify things somewhat.
>

Yes, that's won't come any time soon.

--
> geni


Regards,

Yann
A Commons admin.
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open letter from Wikimedia Argentina regarding URAA

Jane Darnell
This would be the more concise open letter that I think all projects could support, no?

Sent from my iPad

On Feb 28, 2014, at 10:08 AM, Yann Forget <[hidden email]> wrote:

> 2014-02-28 7:00 GMT+05:30 geni <[hidden email]>:
>
>>
>> Now if someone could get the US to follow the law of the shorter term that
>> would simplify things somewhat.
>>
>
> Yes, that's won't come any time soon.
>
> --
>> geni
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Yann
> A Commons admin.
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
123