[Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

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[Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

Andy Mabbett-2
OTRS is an important part of our activity, and is akey interface
between our volunteers and key partner institutions, as well as (often
notable) individuals.
By its very nature, much of what OTRS agents do cannot be as
transparent as the rest of our activities, being rightly held as
confidential.

For that reason it is essential that what can be, is as transparent as possible.

Back in February, an issue arose [1] where it became known that an
OTRS agent was rejecting images supplied by individuals at the request
of Wikidata volunteers, to illustrate Wikidata items, apparently
because that individual misunderstood and was mis-applying Commons
policy.

During the discussion of that case, on the OTRS noticeboard on
Commons, I raised ten questions [2]:

1. what are OTRS' rules and policies?

2. where are those rules and policies documented, and why are they not public?

3. where are those rules and policies discussed and decided?

4. what is the process for getting those rules and policies changed
(or reworded for clarity)?

5. how is OTRS overseen, and who by?

6. what is the approval process for an individual to become an OTRS agent?

7. what is the process for the community to remove an individual's
OTRS permissions, if they fail to uphold or abide by policy?

8. if an individual has been acting contrary to policy, what is the
process for reviewing and if necessary overturning their past actions
(including contacting and apologising to their correspondents)?

9. which individuals can make someone an OTRS agent, or remove their
permissions?

10. how are the individuals in #9 appointed and overseen?

Some discussion ensued, and an email was reportedly posted to the
closed OTRS mailing list asking for input, but after several months
(indeed, nigh on half a year), THE QUESTIONS HAVE NOT YET BEEN
ANSWERED [*] (the discussion has even had to be restored from the
page's archives).

How the OTRS system operates remains opaque to most Wikimedians.

How can we get answers to these vital questions?


[Please preferably reply in the OTRS noticeboard thread if possible.
Where discussion does take place on this mailing list, please add key
points to the noticeboard thread]

[1]  https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:OTRS/Noticeboard#OTRS_&_Wikidata

[2]  https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:OTRS/Noticeboard#questions

[*] A single link was provided, to
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:PrefixIndex/OTRS - which is a
set of 214 pages

--
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

Jonatan Svensson Glad
Some quick non-answer (better knows as !answers):

1. what are OTRS' rules and policies?
I’m unable to answer this due to the Confidentiality Agreement all OTRS agents sign. <https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/L45> Any and all information on the OTRS wiki is private. OTRS wiki is used as a private workspace restricted to Wikimedia Foundation staff, chapter representatives, and Volunteer Response Team members, and is is strictly confidential.

2. where are those rules and policies documented, and why are they not public?
All rules and policies not stored on a local wiki (Commons, enwp, etc.) or Meta are stored on the OTRS wiki <http://otrs-wiki.wikimedia.org>. Why, if any rules or policies posted on OTRS wiki, are not public, I’m unable to answer this due to the Confidentiality Agreement all OTRS agents sign.

3. where are those rules and policies discussed and decided?
If not discussed publicly on a local wiki (Commons, enwp, etc.) or Meta, they can be discussed on e.g. the Café on the OTRS wiki <http://otrs-wiki.wikimedia.org> or on the mailing list. Or, I guess, by ”decree" by WMF.

4. what is the process for getting those rules and policies changed (or reworded for clarity)?
I’m unable to answer this due to the Confidentiality Agreement all OTRS agents sign.

5. how is OTRS overseen, and who by?
OTRS has 9 ”OTRS admins” <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/OTRS#OTRS_administrators>. I believe OTRS falls under the Communications committee’s purview, and perhaps T&S.

6. what is the approval process for an individual to become an OTRS agent?
Please see https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/OTRS/Volunteering.

7. what is the process for the community to remove an individual’s OTRS permissions, if they fail to uphold or abide by policy?
I do not know the answer to this question.

8. if an individual has been acting contrary to policy, what is the process for reviewing and if necessary overturning their past actions (including contacting and apologising to their correspondents)?
I’m unable to answer this due to the Confidentiality Agreement all OTRS agents sign.

9. which individuals can make someone an OTRS agent, or remove their permissions?
OTRS admins <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/OTRS#OTRS_administrators>.

10. how are the individuals in #9 appointed and overseen?
I do not know the answer to this question.


Jonatan Svensson Glad
Josve05a
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

Amir Sarabadani-2
Hello,
This is the first time that I heard that the rules and policies of a
volunteer body are confidential. As a CU and OS we don't have any
confidential policy (confidential data, sure)

Can you elaborate more?

On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 7:52 PM Jonatan Svensson Glad <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Some quick non-answer (better knows as !answers):
>
> 1. what are OTRS' rules and policies?
> I’m unable to answer this due to the Confidentiality Agreement all OTRS
> agents sign. <https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/L45> Any and all
> information on the OTRS wiki is private. OTRS wiki is used as a private
> workspace restricted to Wikimedia Foundation staff, chapter
> representatives, and Volunteer Response Team members, and is is strictly
> confidential.
>
> 2. where are those rules and policies documented, and why are they not
> public?
> All rules and policies not stored on a local wiki (Commons, enwp, etc.) or
> Meta are stored on the OTRS wiki <http://otrs-wiki.wikimedia.org>. Why,
> if any rules or policies posted on OTRS wiki, are not public, I’m unable to
> answer this due to the Confidentiality Agreement all OTRS agents sign.
>
> 3. where are those rules and policies discussed and decided?
> If not discussed publicly on a local wiki (Commons, enwp, etc.) or Meta,
> they can be discussed on e.g. the Café on the OTRS wiki <
> http://otrs-wiki.wikimedia.org> or on the mailing list. Or, I guess, by
> ”decree" by WMF.
>
> 4. what is the process for getting those rules and policies changed (or
> reworded for clarity)?
> I’m unable to answer this due to the Confidentiality Agreement all OTRS
> agents sign.
>
> 5. how is OTRS overseen, and who by?
> OTRS has 9 ”OTRS admins” <
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/OTRS#OTRS_administrators>. I believe OTRS
> falls under the Communications committee’s purview, and perhaps T&S.
>
> 6. what is the approval process for an individual to become an OTRS agent?
> Please see https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/OTRS/Volunteering.
>
> 7. what is the process for the community to remove an individual’s OTRS
> permissions, if they fail to uphold or abide by policy?
> I do not know the answer to this question.
>
> 8. if an individual has been acting contrary to policy, what is the
> process for reviewing and if necessary overturning their past actions
> (including contacting and apologising to their correspondents)?
> I’m unable to answer this due to the Confidentiality Agreement all OTRS
> agents sign.
>
> 9. which individuals can make someone an OTRS agent, or remove their
> permissions?
> OTRS admins <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/OTRS#OTRS_administrators>.
>
> 10. how are the individuals in #9 appointed and overseen?
> I do not know the answer to this question.
>
>
> Jonatan Svensson Glad
> Josve05a
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>



--
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

Jonatan Svensson Glad
In reply to this post by Andy Mabbett-2
At the bottom of https://otrs-wiki.wikimedia.org/ you can see that there is a link called "Confidentiality notice” <https://otrs-wiki.wikimedia.org/wiki/Project:General_disclaimer>. What is stated in that confidentiality notice is also confidential, since it is located on the wiki. But https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/L45 is the actual agreement singed by OTRS agents to gain access ot he OTRS software and the wiki.

It is also stated in the footer of https://otrs-wiki.wikimedia.org/: "Please be aware that this is a private wiki, so content should not be shared externally.”

--
Jonatan Svensson Glad
Josve05a
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

Nathan Awrich
In reply to this post by Amir Sarabadani-2
OTRS has always seemed modeled after our wikis; self-selecting,
self-perpetuating, self-governing... Often inconsistent, and always opaque
to outsiders. There was a time when this was regarded as a feature. As
other functions have become more transparent and accountable, OTRS has kept
a low profile.

On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 5:42 PM Amir Sarabadani <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hello,
> This is the first time that I heard that the rules and policies of a
> volunteer body are confidential. As a CU and OS we don't have any
> confidential policy (confidential data, sure)
>
> Can you elaborate more?
>
> On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 7:52 PM Jonatan Svensson Glad <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Some quick non-answer (better knows as !answers):
> >
> > 1. what are OTRS' rules and policies?
> > I’m unable to answer this due to the Confidentiality Agreement all OTRS
> > agents sign. <https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/L45> Any and all
> > information on the OTRS wiki is private. OTRS wiki is used as a private
> > workspace restricted to Wikimedia Foundation staff, chapter
> > representatives, and Volunteer Response Team members, and is is strictly
> > confidential.
> >
> > 2. where are those rules and policies documented, and why are they not
> > public?
> > All rules and policies not stored on a local wiki (Commons, enwp, etc.)
> or
> > Meta are stored on the OTRS wiki <http://otrs-wiki.wikimedia.org>. Why,
> > if any rules or policies posted on OTRS wiki, are not public, I’m unable
> to
> > answer this due to the Confidentiality Agreement all OTRS agents sign.
> >
> > 3. where are those rules and policies discussed and decided?
> > If not discussed publicly on a local wiki (Commons, enwp, etc.) or Meta,
> > they can be discussed on e.g. the Café on the OTRS wiki <
> > http://otrs-wiki.wikimedia.org> or on the mailing list. Or, I guess, by
> > ”decree" by WMF.
> >
> > 4. what is the process for getting those rules and policies changed (or
> > reworded for clarity)?
> > I’m unable to answer this due to the Confidentiality Agreement all OTRS
> > agents sign.
> >
> > 5. how is OTRS overseen, and who by?
> > OTRS has 9 ”OTRS admins” <
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/OTRS#OTRS_administrators>. I believe
> OTRS
> > falls under the Communications committee’s purview, and perhaps T&S.
> >
> > 6. what is the approval process for an individual to become an OTRS
> agent?
> > Please see https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/OTRS/Volunteering.
> >
> > 7. what is the process for the community to remove an individual’s OTRS
> > permissions, if they fail to uphold or abide by policy?
> > I do not know the answer to this question.
> >
> > 8. if an individual has been acting contrary to policy, what is the
> > process for reviewing and if necessary overturning their past actions
> > (including contacting and apologising to their correspondents)?
> > I’m unable to answer this due to the Confidentiality Agreement all OTRS
> > agents sign.
> >
> > 9. which individuals can make someone an OTRS agent, or remove their
> > permissions?
> > OTRS admins <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/OTRS#OTRS_administrators>.
> >
> > 10. how are the individuals in #9 appointed and overseen?
> > I do not know the answer to this question.
> >
> >
> > Jonatan Svensson Glad
> > Josve05a
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
>
> --
> Amir (he/him)
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

Amir Sarabadani-2
In reply to this post by Jonatan Svensson Glad
I understand but my question is "why". There is no other volunteer group
that has a private policy. How is it different from CU and OS?

On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 11:56 PM Jonatan Svensson Glad <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> At the bottom of https://otrs-wiki.wikimedia.org/ you can see that there
> is a link called "Confidentiality notice” <
> https://otrs-wiki.wikimedia.org/wiki/Project:General_disclaimer>. What is
> stated in that confidentiality notice is also confidential, since it is
> located on the wiki. But https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/L45 is the
> actual agreement singed by OTRS agents to gain access ot he OTRS software
> and the wiki.
>
> It is also stated in the footer of https://otrs-wiki.wikimedia.org/:
> "Please be aware that this is a private wiki, so content should not be
> shared externally.”
>
> --
> Jonatan Svensson Glad
> Josve05a
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>



--
Amir (he/him)
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

Jonatan Svensson Glad
In reply to this post by Andy Mabbett-2
Most likely since tickets can be discussed in detail on the wiki amongst agents, and therefore a protective silence on the entire wiki has been put in place.

For the other questions (such as how to remove another user as an agent), OTRS admins are not really admins as in the normal wiki-way, but more like "rulers of OTRS". Their word is law (kinda). So, to change any of this, they (or WMF staffers) would need to do it.

--
Jonatan
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

Tomasz Ganicz
In reply to this post by Jonatan Svensson Glad
pon., 6 lip 2020 o 19:52 Jonatan Svensson Glad <[hidden email]>
napisał(a):

> Some quick non-answer (better knows as !answers):
>
> 1. what are OTRS' rules and policies?
> I’m unable to answer this due to the Confidentiality Agreement all OTRS
> agents sign. <https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/L45> Any and all
> information on the OTRS wiki is private. OTRS wiki is used as a private
> workspace restricted to Wikimedia Foundation staff, chapter
> representatives, and Volunteer Response Team members, and is is strictly
> confidential.
>
>
Well, please do not create conspiracy theories... Actually, as far as I
understand my role as an OTRS volunteer - there are no any special rules
for OTRS except some technical, civility aspects and confidentiality of
mailing with individuals - as OTRS volunteers generally should simply
follow local wiki policies when answering questions, and in case of
permission cases - general copyright policies of Commons and local wikis.
WIth copyright policies on Commons - there is a problem of its complexity -
and there are cases when there is no easy answer. Anyway - copyright
related decisions of OTRS volunteers on Commons are screened from time to
time by Commons admins having access to OTRS.

Regarding privacy issues - OTRS volunteers can be reported to the Ombudsman
Commission and during my serving in this Commision there were cases related
to OTRS.


--
Tomek "Polimerek" Ganicz
http://pl.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Polimerek
http://www.ganicz.pl/poli/
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

ZI Jony
All points has been raised here are valid points. We should raise a
discussion on wiki (maybe OTRS talk or Wikimedia Forum). As Amir said all
CU and OS policies are available locally, then why OTRS policies should not
be there.


Regards,
ZI Jony

On Tue, Jul 7, 2020, 12:47 PM Tomasz Ganicz <[hidden email]> wrote:

> pon., 6 lip 2020 o 19:52 Jonatan Svensson Glad <[hidden email]>
> napisał(a):
>
> > Some quick non-answer (better knows as !answers):
> >
> > 1. what are OTRS' rules and policies?
> > I’m unable to answer this due to the Confidentiality Agreement all OTRS
> > agents sign. <https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/L45> Any and all
> > information on the OTRS wiki is private. OTRS wiki is used as a private
> > workspace restricted to Wikimedia Foundation staff, chapter
> > representatives, and Volunteer Response Team members, and is is strictly
> > confidential.
> >
> >
> Well, please do not create conspiracy theories... Actually, as far as I
> understand my role as an OTRS volunteer - there are no any special rules
> for OTRS except some technical, civility aspects and confidentiality of
> mailing with individuals - as OTRS volunteers generally should simply
> follow local wiki policies when answering questions, and in case of
> permission cases - general copyright policies of Commons and local wikis.
> WIth copyright policies on Commons - there is a problem of its complexity -
> and there are cases when there is no easy answer. Anyway - copyright
> related decisions of OTRS volunteers on Commons are screened from time to
> time by Commons admins having access to OTRS.
>
> Regarding privacy issues - OTRS volunteers can be reported to the Ombudsman
> Commission and during my serving in this Commision there were cases related
> to OTRS.
>
>
> --
> Tomek "Polimerek" Ganicz
> http://pl.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Polimerek
> http://www.ganicz.pl/poli/
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

Ciell Wikipedia
In reply to this post by Tomasz Ganicz
I agree with Tomek here.

And let me emphasize that not all OTRS admins have access to all queues: in
fact, I think only the admins do. OTRS is a very fast system with queues
per project and again per language, and access is given per queue. A queue
is mostly created per Wikimedia project and language, except for the
subject-related queue like WLX which is just for the competitions, and
maybe chapters and WMF. Most of us only have access to a few queues, if
more then one.
But this access comes with knowledge, so if you are concerned about a
person's knowledge on the subject of the emails they are handling, just
reach out to one of the OTRS admins and express your concerns.

Vriendelijke groet,
Ciell


Op di 7 jul. 2020 om 08:47 schreef Tomasz Ganicz <[hidden email]>:

> pon., 6 lip 2020 o 19:52 Jonatan Svensson Glad <[hidden email]>
> napisał(a):
>
> > Some quick non-answer (better knows as !answers):
> >
> > 1. what are OTRS' rules and policies?
> > I’m unable to answer this due to the Confidentiality Agreement all OTRS
> > agents sign. <https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/L45> Any and all
> > information on the OTRS wiki is private. OTRS wiki is used as a private
> > workspace restricted to Wikimedia Foundation staff, chapter
> > representatives, and Volunteer Response Team members, and is is strictly
> > confidential.
> >
> >
> Well, please do not create conspiracy theories... Actually, as far as I
> understand my role as an OTRS volunteer - there are no any special rules
> for OTRS except some technical, civility aspects and confidentiality of
> mailing with individuals - as OTRS volunteers generally should simply
> follow local wiki policies when answering questions, and in case of
> permission cases - general copyright policies of Commons and local wikis.
> WIth copyright policies on Commons - there is a problem of its complexity -
> and there are cases when there is no easy answer. Anyway - copyright
> related decisions of OTRS volunteers on Commons are screened from time to
> time by Commons admins having access to OTRS.
>
> Regarding privacy issues - OTRS volunteers can be reported to the Ombudsman
> Commission and during my serving in this Commision there were cases related
> to OTRS.
>
>
> --
> Tomek "Polimerek" Ganicz
> http://pl.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Polimerek
> http://www.ganicz.pl/poli/
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

Andy Mabbett-2
In reply to this post by Jonatan Svensson Glad
On Mon, 6 Jul 2020 at 18:52, Jonatan Svensson Glad
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> 1. what are OTRS' rules and policies?
> I’m unable to answer this due to the Confidentiality Agreement all OTRS agents sign.

So who is able to answer it?

>  I believe OTRS falls under the Communications committee’s purview,

There is nothing sayng so on
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Communications_committee

> and perhaps T&S.

...nor on https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Trust_and_Safety

--
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

Andy Mabbett-2
In reply to this post by Tomasz Ganicz
On Tue, 7 Jul 2020 at 07:46, Tomasz Ganicz <[hidden email]> wrote:

> > I’m unable to answer this due to the Confidentiality Agreement all OTRS
> > agents sign.

> Well, please do not create conspiracy theories...

It's not a conspiracy theory if there is evidence of a conspiracy.

> Actually, as far as I understand my role as an OTRS volunteer - there
> are no any special rules for OTRS except some technical, civility
> aspects and confidentiality of mailing with individuals

No special rules, apart from [list of special rules]?

> Regarding privacy issues - OTRS volunteers can be reported to the Ombudsman
> Commission and during my serving in this Commision there were cases related
> to OTRS.

Indeed - but I'm not asking about just privacy issues.


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@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

Tomasz Ganicz
czw., 9 lip 2020 o 18:53 Andy Mabbett <[hidden email]>
napisał(a):

> On Tue, 7 Jul 2020 at 07:46, Tomasz Ganicz <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > > I’m unable to answer this due to the Confidentiality Agreement all OTRS
> > > agents sign.
>
> > Well, please do not create conspiracy theories...
>
> It's not a conspiracy theory if there is evidence of a conspiracy.
>

What evidence? Again - OTRS wiki contains mainly technical stuff - such as
some basic advices how to answer properly to e-mails,  how to avoid typical
mistakes, boilerplates for typical, redundant questions + some discussions
about technical boundaries of what could be accept and what not regarding
copyright agreements (for example how to be sure that agreement comes from
person who can really sing it) and when and how to add OTRS  copyright
templates. This is made not public - first of all as discussions about
disputable cases contain quite often personal details, and there are some
"tricks" how to recognize fraudulent agreements, which if made public,
could have made life easier for potential  impositors.

General copyright rules, procedures and copyright agreement templates are
made public in most wikis, and that are real rules that are followed by
OTRS agents responsible for  permission queues. See for example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requesting_copyright_permission

or

https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomoc:Pozwolenia_na_wykorzystanie

and most complicated - on Commons:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:OTRS



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

Andy Mabbett-2
On Fri, 10 Jul 2020 at 10:05, Tomasz Ganicz <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> czw., 9 lip 2020 o 18:53 Andy Mabbett <[hidden email]>
> napisał(a):
>
> > On Tue, 7 Jul 2020 at 07:46, Tomasz Ganicz <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > > I’m unable to answer this due to the Confidentiality Agreement all OTRS
> > > > agents sign.
> >
> > > Well, please do not create conspiracy theories...
> >
> > It's not a conspiracy theory if there is evidence of a conspiracy.

> What evidence?

* OTRS policies, stored on the OTRS wiki, are not public

* The questions asked in February have still not been answered

*  A post from Jonatan to this list, saying "I'm unable to answer this
due to the Confidentiality Agreement all OTRS agents sign."

> General copyright rules, procedures and copyright agreement templates are
> made public in most wikis

Again; that is not what is being asked.

--
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

Aron Manning
In reply to this post by Jonatan Svensson Glad
On Mon, 6 Jul 2020 at 19:52, Jonatan Svensson Glad <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> 8. if an individual has been acting contrary to policy, what is the
> process for reviewing and if necessary overturning their past actions
> (including contacting and apologising to their correspondents)?
> I’m unable to answer this due to the Confidentiality Agreement all OTRS
> agents sign.


I recall one experience with OTRS in which I've received this brief answer:

> Report them to ANI and hope you're not *hit in the face with a boomerang*.
>
> Yours sincerely, ...

The individual did not apologize in further correspondence and I haven't
thought about contacting OTRS since then.


Aron
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

Peter Southwood
Context is necessary to understand this.
If OTRS part of Wikipedia? If not, Which ANI?
Cheers,
Peter

-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Aron Manning
Sent: 11 July 2020 09:23
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

On Mon, 6 Jul 2020 at 19:52, Jonatan Svensson Glad <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> 8. if an individual has been acting contrary to policy, what is the
> process for reviewing and if necessary overturning their past actions
> (including contacting and apologising to their correspondents)?
> I’m unable to answer this due to the Confidentiality Agreement all OTRS
> agents sign.


I recall one experience with OTRS in which I've received this brief answer:

> Report them to ANI and hope you're not *hit in the face with a boomerang*.
>
> Yours sincerely, ...

The individual did not apologize in further correspondence and I haven't
thought about contacting OTRS since then.


Aron
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

Aron Manning
On Sat, 11 Jul 2020 at 10:48, Peter Southwood <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Context is necessary to understand this.
> If OTRS part of Wikipedia?

I don't understand that question.
The cited answer was received from <[hidden email]>.

If not, Which ANI?
>
The OTRS volunteer referred to [[en:wp:ANI]].

Cheers,
Aron


On Sat, 11 Jul 2020 at 10:48, Peter Southwood <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Context is necessary to understand this.
> If OTRS part of Wikipedia? If not, Which ANI?
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of Aron Manning
> Sent: 11 July 2020 09:23
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system
>
> On Mon, 6 Jul 2020 at 19:52, Jonatan Svensson Glad <
> [hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > 8. if an individual has been acting contrary to policy, what is the
> > process for reviewing and if necessary overturning their past actions
> > (including contacting and apologising to their correspondents)?
> > I’m unable to answer this due to the Confidentiality Agreement all OTRS
> > agents sign.
>
>
> I recall one experience with OTRS in which I've received this brief answer:
>
> > Report them to ANI and hope you're not *hit in the face with a
> boomerang*.
> >
> > Yours sincerely, ...
>
> The individual did not apologize in further correspondence and I haven't
> thought about contacting OTRS since then.
>
>
> Aron
> _______________________________________________
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> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
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> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

Gerard Meijssen-3
In reply to this post by Peter Southwood
Hoi,
How can OTRS be part of Wikipedia, it is there for any and all projects.
Thanks,
      GerardM

On Sat, 11 Jul 2020 at 10:48, Peter Southwood <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Context is necessary to understand this.
> If OTRS part of Wikipedia? If not, Which ANI?
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of Aron Manning
> Sent: 11 July 2020 09:23
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system
>
> On Mon, 6 Jul 2020 at 19:52, Jonatan Svensson Glad <
> [hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > 8. if an individual has been acting contrary to policy, what is the
> > process for reviewing and if necessary overturning their past actions
> > (including contacting and apologising to their correspondents)?
> > I’m unable to answer this due to the Confidentiality Agreement all OTRS
> > agents sign.
>
>
> I recall one experience with OTRS in which I've received this brief answer:
>
> > Report them to ANI and hope you're not *hit in the face with a
> boomerang*.
> >
> > Yours sincerely, ...
>
> The individual did not apologize in further correspondence and I haven't
> thought about contacting OTRS since then.
>
>
> Aron
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
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> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

Peter Southwood
In reply to this post by Aron Manning
Quite possible I am mistaken, but I thought OTRS was separate from WP, which would make en:wp:ANI irrelevant.
Chreers,
Peter

-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Aron Manning
Sent: 11 July 2020 10:55
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

On Sat, 11 Jul 2020 at 10:48, Peter Southwood <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Context is necessary to understand this.
> If OTRS part of Wikipedia?

I don't understand that question.
The cited answer was received from <[hidden email]>.

If not, Which ANI?
>
The OTRS volunteer referred to [[en:wp:ANI]].

Cheers,
Aron


On Sat, 11 Jul 2020 at 10:48, Peter Southwood <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Context is necessary to understand this.
> If OTRS part of Wikipedia? If not, Which ANI?
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of Aron Manning
> Sent: 11 July 2020 09:23
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system
>
> On Mon, 6 Jul 2020 at 19:52, Jonatan Svensson Glad <
> [hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > 8. if an individual has been acting contrary to policy, what is the
> > process for reviewing and if necessary overturning their past actions
> > (including contacting and apologising to their correspondents)?
> > I’m unable to answer this due to the Confidentiality Agreement all OTRS
> > agents sign.
>
>
> I recall one experience with OTRS in which I've received this brief answer:
>
> > Report them to ANI and hope you're not *hit in the face with a
> boomerang*.
> >
> > Yours sincerely, ...
>
> The individual did not apologize in further correspondence and I haven't
> thought about contacting OTRS since then.
>
>
> Aron
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

Effe iets anders
In reply to this post by Andy Mabbett-2
Jonatan: Implying that there's more secrecy than necessary, is unhelpful. I
would dare say that if the policies that Andy is looking for exist (given
his inquiry he's looking for a specific set), they should and would be
available on meta. If that is not the case, that is more likely due to
laziness and/or lack of time than by design - so if you know of policies
where that is not the case, please bring it up internally, ask for
objections to publish it, and lets rectify. I agree with Tomek that your
line of answering with non-answers bring up conspiracies.

Andy: I'm sorry that you're unhappy about your experiences with OTRS. It
seems that you're particularly concerned about the Commons/Permissions
queues. I'm not exactly clear on what policies you're looking for (although
I get the gist). If you're talking about policies related to how
permissions are handled (what threshold are we using, what level of
scrutiny, etc), I would say that in the end, that is up to the Commons (or
alternative receiving) community.
If you're talking behavior, I'm indeed not sure if we have much 'policy'
other than some guidelines and common sense.

From the page it looks like there were multiple people willing to help pull
together the relevant pages and documentation. But you're right that this
is a bit of a mess - much of OTRS has grown organically. I doubt you
expected much different.

All in all, I'm afraid there are no hard black-and-white answers that
people can give you to these questions, because the questions are too
broadly formulated for a diffuse system like this. I know that is not
satisfactory, but there is little use in pretending it's any different.

Now I should note that I'm not super active on OTRS, and especially not on
the permissions queues - so it may well be that I have overlooked something
super obvious. But I would be highly surprised.

Best,
Lodewijk

On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 5:26 AM Andy Mabbett <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> On Fri, 10 Jul 2020 at 10:05, Tomasz Ganicz <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > czw., 9 lip 2020 o 18:53 Andy Mabbett <[hidden email]>
> > napisał(a):
> >
> > > On Tue, 7 Jul 2020 at 07:46, Tomasz Ganicz <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > > I’m unable to answer this due to the Confidentiality Agreement all
> OTRS
> > > > > agents sign.
> > >
> > > > Well, please do not create conspiracy theories...
> > >
> > > It's not a conspiracy theory if there is evidence of a conspiracy.
>
> > What evidence?
>
> * OTRS policies, stored on the OTRS wiki, are not public
>
> * The questions asked in February have still not been answered
>
> *  A post from Jonatan to this list, saying "I'm unable to answer this
> due to the Confidentiality Agreement all OTRS agents sign."
>
> > General copyright rules, procedures and copyright agreement templates are
> > made public in most wikis
>
> Again; that is not what is being asked.
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
> @pigsonthewing
> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>
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