[Wikimedia-l] Our problem with India

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[Wikimedia-l] Our problem with India

Milos Rancic-2
Whenever a serious problem raises and after years of hesitation I
finally realize that I have to speak about it publicly, I have a drive
to drink some rakija, feel good and forget all of the stress the new
issue would give to me.

But this is very important and we have to start talking about it.

This issue lasts for years. I was first approached with this problem
during the Wikimania in London. Because of my firm belief into the
random nature of the nature, I thought it would be solved randomly.

Of course my intuition was wrong. Two years later nothing has changed.

Serbia has 7 millions of inhabitants, India has 1.3 billion. In few
years India will have 2000 times more inhabitants of Serbia.

And when I see what a mess good people from the West [1][2] are making
in Serbia, multiply that number with 2000 and realize that I have a
number of Wikimedia friends from India, my anxiety freaks out.

We are not the worst, it's likely we are even the best, but we are
mostly doing the same things that has been proved to be plainly wrong.
Fortunately, it's just "mostly", not "completely", as we have the way
to see what is wrong.

The problem we have there is bigger than any inequality gap we have in
all OECD countries combined, as Wikimedia is doing poor job in solving
any problem for approximately 1.2 billion of humans.

I will start with with the simple fact that Hindi, the fourth language
by number of speakers [3] has Wikipedia at the 58th place by number of
articles [4]. And, no, Hindi Wikipedia is not at all in the category
"smaller number of very good articles".

I will continue with my completely unscientific approximation that 1/7
of the world population has been constantly represented on Wikimanias
by 1/7 Wikimedians if we count genetics and 0 (zero) if we count
social reality.

For those who didn't yet get it, if the upper classes of India consist
even 20% of population, we don't have any representation of 1 billion
of humans.

I could continue here with the background of the issue, various
problems mentioned to me, frustration expressed to me, but I don't
think it's useful at all.

What I think it's most useful is to start fixing the problem *now*. I
want to hear Indian Wikimedians what they see as problems that should
be solved, how they think that they should be solved, as well as WMF
and other Wikimedia movement bodies to start tackling that problem.

This is the part of the bigger problem. All of us have similar
problems in our own societies. And I think everybody should follow the
resolution of this problem and think how to do the similar things in
their own capacities in their own societies. (Hint for American
Wikimedians: Trump supporters are your next target for positive
discrimination.)

[1] https://newrepublic.com/article/120178/problem-international-development-and-plan-fix-it
[2] http://www.ted.com/talks/ernesto_sirolli_want_to_help_someone_shut_up_and_listen
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_number_of_native_speakers
[4] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wikipedias

--
Milos

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Our problem with India

Milos Rancic-2
On Jun 28, 2016 09:58, "Milos Rancic" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> (Hint for American
> Wikimedians: Trump supporters are your next target for positive
> discrimination.)

It seems I have to clarify this sentence.

I didn't say Trump, I didn't say Cruz, I didn't say Cruz supporters, I said
Trump supporters.

I have in mind very specific population, genuinely scared by the privileged
Mexican illegal immigrants, working lazy for the American agricultural
industry for $5/h or less and supported by Bay Area hipsters and Jewish
lobby.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Our problem with India

Milos Rancic-2
And it seems I need one more note: The last sentence was satirical.
On Jun 28, 2016 13:27, "Milos Rancic" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Jun 28, 2016 09:58, "Milos Rancic" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > (Hint for American
> > Wikimedians: Trump supporters are your next target for positive
> > discrimination.)
>
> It seems I have to clarify this sentence.
>
> I didn't say Trump, I didn't say Cruz, I didn't say Cruz supporters, I
> said Trump supporters.
>
> I have in mind very specific population, genuinely scared by the
> privileged Mexican illegal immigrants, working lazy for the American
> agricultural industry for $5/h or less and supported by Bay Area hipsters
> and Jewish lobby.
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Our problem with India

Peter Southwood
In reply to this post by Milos Rancic-2
Still not clear. Why?

-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Milos Rancic
Sent: Tuesday, 28 June 2016 1:28 PM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Our problem with India

On Jun 28, 2016 09:58, "Milos Rancic" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> (Hint for American
> Wikimedians: Trump supporters are your next target for positive
> discrimination.)

It seems I have to clarify this sentence.

I didn't say Trump, I didn't say Cruz, I didn't say Cruz supporters, I said Trump supporters.

I have in mind very specific population, genuinely scared by the privileged Mexican illegal immigrants, working lazy for the American agricultural industry for $5/h or less and supported by Bay Area hipsters and Jewish lobby.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Our problem with India

Peter Southwood
In reply to this post by Milos Rancic-2
Your skills at satire do not work for me.
Cheers,
Peter

-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Milos Rancic
Sent: Tuesday, 28 June 2016 1:28 PM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Our problem with India

On Jun 28, 2016 09:58, "Milos Rancic" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> (Hint for American
> Wikimedians: Trump supporters are your next target for positive
> discrimination.)

It seems I have to clarify this sentence.

I didn't say Trump, I didn't say Cruz, I didn't say Cruz supporters, I said Trump supporters.

I have in mind very specific population, genuinely scared by the privileged Mexican illegal immigrants, working lazy for the American agricultural industry for $5/h or less and supported by Bay Area hipsters and Jewish lobby.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Our problem with India

Anders Wennersten-2
In reply to this post by Milos Rancic-2
I have been active in FDC and followed closely all applicants. It works
very well when it comes to promote small affiliates to grow in a
controlled way and ensuring that money is spent wisely. The FDC, though,
demand an elaborate plan, and application, which can be (too) hard as a
first step if you still is an volunteer driven organisation.  So  since
a year the Simple annual plan grant now exist, and I have been part in
this and its seven applicants that has been through that process. And it
works wonderfully even if there has been quite complicated issues in the
application. The application formality is much easier and the applicant
gets hands-on help by both WMF staff and also by a peer from an existing
affiliate. And the feedback we have received has been very very
positive, specially the support from peers. And for you Milos who was in
ChapCom at the same time as me in 2008, you should rejoice as much as me
that now also Brazil is on track, so the "complicated" affiliates in
2008, Catala, Brazil an US, are now all on track.

So we now have process in place that really help and support small
groups of enthusiastic Wikimedians to grow in a controlled way becoming
well functioning chapters. We have also since 2008 learnt, from
experiences from Brazil and India, that to try by "outsiders" to get  a
local organisation in place that will grow in a good way, just has not
worked. These experiments just hindered (and delayed) natural good
establishment.

So my learning is that it is counter productive to try as an outsider to
get something happen. We have to await until groups of clever
Wikimedians in India with the right ambition etc are ready to enter
applications to either of the grant programs, and then there are
mechanisms in place to help them evolve

Anders







Den 2016-06-28 kl. 13:36, skrev Milos Rancic:

> And it seems I need one more note: The last sentence was satirical.
> On Jun 28, 2016 13:27, "Milos Rancic" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On Jun 28, 2016 09:58, "Milos Rancic" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> (Hint for American
>>> Wikimedians: Trump supporters are your next target for positive
>>> discrimination.)
>> It seems I have to clarify this sentence.
>>
>> I didn't say Trump, I didn't say Cruz, I didn't say Cruz supporters, I
>> said Trump supporters.
>>
>> I have in mind very specific population, genuinely scared by the
>> privileged Mexican illegal immigrants, working lazy for the American
>> agricultural industry for $5/h or less and supported by Bay Area hipsters
>> and Jewish lobby.
>>
> _______________________________________________
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> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Our problem with India

Milos Rancic-2
On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 4:47 PM, Anders Wennersten
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> I have been active in FDC and followed closely all applicants. It works very
> well when it comes to promote small affiliates to grow in a controlled way
> and ensuring that money is spent wisely. The FDC, though, demand an
> elaborate plan, and application, which can be (too) hard as a first step if
> you still is an volunteer driven organisation.  So  since a year the Simple
> annual plan grant now exist, and I have been part in this and its seven
> applicants that has been through that process. And it works wonderfully even
> if there has been quite complicated issues in the application. The
> application formality is much easier and the applicant gets hands-on help by
> both WMF staff and also by a peer from an existing affiliate. And the
> feedback we have received has been very very positive, specially the support
> from peers. And for you Milos who was in ChapCom at the same time as me in
> 2008, you should rejoice as much as me that now also Brazil is on track, so
> the "complicated" affiliates in 2008, Catala, Brazil an US, are now all on
> track.
>
> So we now have process in place that really help and support small groups of
> enthusiastic Wikimedians to grow in a controlled way becoming well
> functioning chapters. We have also since 2008 learnt, from experiences from
> Brazil and India, that to try by "outsiders" to get  a local organisation in
> place that will grow in a good way, just has not worked. These experiments
> just hindered (and delayed) natural good establishment.
>
> So my learning is that it is counter productive to try as an outsider to get
> something happen. We have to await until groups of clever Wikimedians in
> India with the right ambition etc are ready to enter applications to either
> of the grant programs, and then there are mechanisms in place to help them
> evolve

Anders, we've been asked for help at least twice that I know, as I can
witness for those two times. The first time I thought it will be
solved, but it hasn't been solved after two years. Plus, a couple of
previous years of getting informal complaints in relation to the WMF's
behavior in India.

The *problem* is that WMF is actually participating in keeping the
mess in perpetual state. And it's not about bad intentions, but about
incompetence. So, let's start solving *our* problem with India, not
*Indian* problem with us.

--
Milos

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Our problem with India

Risker
Milos, I read the points you are making in your initial post, and I cannot
tell what actions you are seeking.  I am not even really clear on what the
problem is that you are "reporting".  The best I can make of it is that you
don't think there are enough articles in the Wikipedias of the languages of
the Indian subcontinent, and that somehow it is the WMF's fault.

Risker/Anne

On 28 June 2016 at 11:51, Milos Rancic <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 4:47 PM, Anders Wennersten
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > I have been active in FDC and followed closely all applicants. It works
> very
> > well when it comes to promote small affiliates to grow in a controlled
> way
> > and ensuring that money is spent wisely. The FDC, though, demand an
> > elaborate plan, and application, which can be (too) hard as a first step
> if
> > you still is an volunteer driven organisation.  So  since a year the
> Simple
> > annual plan grant now exist, and I have been part in this and its seven
> > applicants that has been through that process. And it works wonderfully
> even
> > if there has been quite complicated issues in the application. The
> > application formality is much easier and the applicant gets hands-on
> help by
> > both WMF staff and also by a peer from an existing affiliate. And the
> > feedback we have received has been very very positive, specially the
> support
> > from peers. And for you Milos who was in ChapCom at the same time as me
> in
> > 2008, you should rejoice as much as me that now also Brazil is on track,
> so
> > the "complicated" affiliates in 2008, Catala, Brazil an US, are now all
> on
> > track.
> >
> > So we now have process in place that really help and support small
> groups of
> > enthusiastic Wikimedians to grow in a controlled way becoming well
> > functioning chapters. We have also since 2008 learnt, from experiences
> from
> > Brazil and India, that to try by "outsiders" to get  a local
> organisation in
> > place that will grow in a good way, just has not worked. These
> experiments
> > just hindered (and delayed) natural good establishment.
> >
> > So my learning is that it is counter productive to try as an outsider to
> get
> > something happen. We have to await until groups of clever Wikimedians in
> > India with the right ambition etc are ready to enter applications to
> either
> > of the grant programs, and then there are mechanisms in place to help
> them
> > evolve
>
> Anders, we've been asked for help at least twice that I know, as I can
> witness for those two times. The first time I thought it will be
> solved, but it hasn't been solved after two years. Plus, a couple of
> previous years of getting informal complaints in relation to the WMF's
> behavior in India.
>
> The *problem* is that WMF is actually participating in keeping the
> mess in perpetual state. And it's not about bad intentions, but about
> incompetence. So, let's start solving *our* problem with India, not
> *Indian* problem with us.
>
> --
> Milos
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Our problem with India

Milos Rancic-2
On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 6:01 PM, Risker <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Milos, I read the points you are making in your initial post, and I cannot
> tell what actions you are seeking.  I am not even really clear on what the
> problem is that you are "reporting".  The best I can make of it is that you
> don't think there are enough articles in the Wikipedias of the languages of
> the Indian subcontinent, and that somehow it is the WMF's fault.

Yes, it's WMF's fault and the fault of us as a movement. We are not
promoting social diversity in Indian part of our movement and if we
are not doing that, we are cementing the problems they have.

I've written inside of my first email that there were no
representatives of the lower classes of India on Wikimania. That's
something both WMF and the movement can solve by taking care about
diversity. However, Wikimania participation is just a tip of the
iceberg.

--
Milos

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Our problem with India

Asaf Bartov-2
In reply to this post by Milos Rancic-2
On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 6:51 PM, Milos Rancic <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Anders, we've been asked for help at least twice that I know, as I can
> witness for those two times. The first time I thought it will be
> solved, but it hasn't been solved after two years. Plus, a couple of
> previous years of getting informal complaints in relation to the WMF's
> behavior in India.
>

Perhaps you could be tempted into plainly saying what "it" was in these
reports, so that you do not remain the only one in this thread able to
judge the facts.

The *problem* is that WMF is actually participating in keeping the
> mess in perpetual state. And it's not about bad intentions, but about
> incompetence. So, let's start solving *our* problem with India, not
> *Indian* problem with us.
>

A good step toward solving "our"/"the" problem is to name it.  In the
meantime, the one problem you named -- lack of representation of the "lower
classes" from India in Wikimania -- seems to me to be far from our most
pressing, or most tractable, problem.  (Are "the lower classes" from Serbia
represented in Wikimania?)

    A.
--
   Asaf Bartov
    Wikimedia Foundation <http://www.wikimediafoundation.org>

Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the
sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality!
https://donate.wikimedia.org
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Our problem with India

Risker
In reply to this post by Milos Rancic-2
On 28 June 2016 at 12:24, Milos Rancic <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 6:01 PM, Risker <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Milos, I read the points you are making in your initial post, and I
> cannot
> > tell what actions you are seeking.  I am not even really clear on what
> the
> > problem is that you are "reporting".  The best I can make of it is that
> you
> > don't think there are enough articles in the Wikipedias of the languages
> of
> > the Indian subcontinent, and that somehow it is the WMF's fault.
>
> Yes, it's WMF's fault and the fault of us as a movement. We are not
> promoting social diversity in Indian part of our movement and if we
> are not doing that, we are cementing the problems they have.
>
> I've written inside of my first email that there were no
> representatives of the lower classes of India on Wikimania. That's
> something both WMF and the movement can solve by taking care about
> diversity. However, Wikimania participation is just a tip of the
> iceberg.
>
>
Erm....there were few representatives of the "lower classes" of any
language at Wikimania.  This should not surprise you. The "lower classes"
(i.e., the economically disadvantages) of all nationalities and linguistic
heritages are disadvantaged on Wikimedia projects, simply because it is
nearly impossible to edit without financial/economic resources:  ability to
purchase electronics, to pay for an internet/mobile phone connection, to
have reliable internet access, or to have time when one is not carrying out
activities to ensure basic survival, etc.  It is a reality that in most
European, Australasian and North American contexts, a significant majority
of the population is able to overcome the financial and economic barriers
to participation, and that there are sizeable portions (although perhaps
not a majority) who are able to overcome these barriers in some areas of
Asia and South/Central America.  We know that there are huge swaths of Asia
and Africa in particular where the majority of the population are not able
to cross those four barriers I identified.

In many cases and many regions, the first challenge is more likely to be
making the information accessible to people.  If they can't even read
Wikipedia, they're certainly not going to edit it.

Risker
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Our problem with India

Tito Dutta
In reply to this post by Asaf Bartov-2
> lack of representation of the "lower
> ​ ​
> classes" from India in Wikimania
>
-
​ This is also not very clear to me.

(All my comments here are personal)​
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Our problem with India

Milos Rancic-2
In reply to this post by Asaf Bartov-2
On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 6:49 PM, Asaf Bartov <[hidden email]> wrote:
> (Are "the lower classes" from Serbia represented in Wikimania?)

While I could complain about a number things to WMRS, this is an
obvious exception. Two of three Wikimedians funded by WMRS actually
belong to the economically disadvantaged category.

On the rest: being defensive is not useful; being constructive is.

--
Milos

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Our problem with India

Pete Forsyth-2
On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 10:03 AM, Milos Rancic <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On the rest: being defensive is not useful; being constructive is.
>

I don't see anything in this thread that looks defensive; what I see (and
thoroughly agree with) is a request to more clearly define the problem. I'd
add that some clarity around who "we" are who should do something -- which
might be several categories of "we" for different kinds of actions -- would
help, as well.

-Pete
[[User:Peteforsyth]]
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Our problem with India

Milos Rancic-2
On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 7:27 PM, Pete Forsyth <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 10:03 AM, Milos Rancic <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On the rest: being defensive is not useful; being constructive is.
>>
>
> I don't see anything in this thread that looks defensive; what I see (and
> thoroughly agree with) is a request to more clearly define the problem. I'd
> add that some clarity around who "we" are who should do something -- which
> might be several categories of "we" for different kinds of actions -- would
> help, as well.

I didn't say Risker is, for example, defensive; I said Asaf is defensive.

If you have enough information on the issue, constructive approach is
not to pretend to ask for more information, but to talk about what you
know.

--
Milos

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Our problem with India

Anne Gomez
Hey Milos,

Just wanted to let you know about the research that just wrapped up in
India as a part of the New Readers project [1].

A team of staff and external researchers actually spent the last couple of
weeks in Delhi and Chennai gathering data in India through intensive
on-the-ground research. The research was largely focused on people who are
not yet editors (or even necessarily readers) of our projects so that we
can understand how people approach knowledge, learning, the internet, etc..

We also actively sought out meetings with community members in India while
the team was there, and are looking forward to continuing to connect now
that the team is back home.

This follows similar endeavors in Nigeria and Mexico, which have already
led to some really interesting insights that'll help to shape how the
Foundation operates within similar markets.

All of the research is currently being analyzed and the findings will be
shared in the next few months (WMF Q1) along with as much of the raw data
as possible.

We know how important India is, and also how large a challenge it'll be to
fully understand and work with users (and prospective users) there. This
research project will provide a good foundation for further work and
outreach in India and similarly complex regions.

Best,
Anne

[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/New_Readers


On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 10:40 AM, Milos Rancic <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 7:27 PM, Pete Forsyth <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 10:03 AM, Milos Rancic <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> On the rest: being defensive is not useful; being constructive is.
> >>
> >
> > I don't see anything in this thread that looks defensive; what I see (and
> > thoroughly agree with) is a request to more clearly define the problem.
> I'd
> > add that some clarity around who "we" are who should do something --
> which
> > might be several categories of "we" for different kinds of actions --
> would
> > help, as well.
>
> I didn't say Risker is, for example, defensive; I said Asaf is defensive.
>
> If you have enough information on the issue, constructive approach is
> not to pretend to ask for more information, but to talk about what you
> know.
>
> --
> Milos
>
> _______________________________________________
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>



--
*Anne Gomez* // Reading Product Manager, New Readers
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/New_Readers>
https://wikimediafoundation.org/


*Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the
sum of all knowledge. That's our commitment. Donate
<http://donate.wikimedia.org>. *
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Our problem with India

Gerard Meijssen-3
In reply to this post by Anders Wennersten-2
Hoi,
What I know is that in India Wikisource has proven to be very effective and
important to promote the use of local languages. As a member of the
language committee I am in favour to have a Wikisource almost as easily as
a Wikipedia.

The one thing that the WMF fails to do is support the finished work with a
slick interface for consumers of books. This is imho true for any flavour
of Wikisource. We have not considered how to increase the number of readers
of freely licensed books and consequently we do both our readers and our
Wikisourcerers a disservice.
Thanks,
        GerardM

On 28 June 2016 at 16:47, Anders Wennersten <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> I have been active in FDC and followed closely all applicants. It works
> very well when it comes to promote small affiliates to grow in a controlled
> way and ensuring that money is spent wisely. The FDC, though, demand an
> elaborate plan, and application, which can be (too) hard as a first step if
> you still is an volunteer driven organisation.  So  since a year the Simple
> annual plan grant now exist, and I have been part in this and its seven
> applicants that has been through that process. And it works wonderfully
> even if there has been quite complicated issues in the application. The
> application formality is much easier and the applicant gets hands-on help
> by both WMF staff and also by a peer from an existing affiliate. And the
> feedback we have received has been very very positive, specially the
> support from peers. And for you Milos who was in ChapCom at the same time
> as me in 2008, you should rejoice as much as me that now also Brazil is on
> track, so the "complicated" affiliates in 2008, Catala, Brazil an US, are
> now all on track.
>
> So we now have process in place that really help and support small groups
> of enthusiastic Wikimedians to grow in a controlled way becoming well
> functioning chapters. We have also since 2008 learnt, from experiences from
> Brazil and India, that to try by "outsiders" to get  a local organisation
> in place that will grow in a good way, just has not worked. These
> experiments just hindered (and delayed) natural good establishment.
>
> So my learning is that it is counter productive to try as an outsider to
> get something happen. We have to await until groups of clever Wikimedians
> in India with the right ambition etc are ready to enter applications to
> either of the grant programs, and then there are mechanisms in place to
> help them evolve
>
> Anders
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Den 2016-06-28 kl. 13:36, skrev Milos Rancic:
>
>> And it seems I need one more note: The last sentence was satirical.
>> On Jun 28, 2016 13:27, "Milos Rancic" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On Jun 28, 2016 09:58, "Milos Rancic" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> (Hint for American
>>>> Wikimedians: Trump supporters are your next target for positive
>>>> discrimination.)
>>>>
>>> It seems I have to clarify this sentence.
>>>
>>> I didn't say Trump, I didn't say Cruz, I didn't say Cruz supporters, I
>>> said Trump supporters.
>>>
>>> I have in mind very specific population, genuinely scared by the
>>> privileged Mexican illegal immigrants, working lazy for the American
>>> agricultural industry for $5/h or less and supported by Bay Area hipsters
>>> and Jewish lobby.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>> New messages to: [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
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> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Our problem with India

Pete Forsyth-2
In reply to this post by Milos Rancic-2
On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 10:40 AM, Milos Rancic <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 7:27 PM, Pete Forsyth <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 10:03 AM, Milos Rancic <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> On the rest: being defensive is not useful; being constructive is.
> >>
> >
> > I don't see anything in this thread that looks defensive; what I see (and
> > thoroughly agree with) is a request to more clearly define the problem.
> I'd
> > add that some clarity around who "we" are who should do something --
> which
> > might be several categories of "we" for different kinds of actions --
> would
> > help, as well.
>
> I didn't say Risker is, for example, defensive; I said Asaf is defensive.
>
> If you have enough information on the issue, constructive approach is
> not to pretend to ask for more information, but to talk about what you
> know.
>

I'll leave the "defensive" bit aside, and just reiterate that I *still* do
not understand exactly what problem you're trying to focus discussion on.
In the piece of text Asaf quoted, you used the words "it" and "reports." I
don't know what you intend by those words. Maybe for some reason you feel
it's Asaf's job to clarify that for the rest of the list's readers; maybe
so. I don't have more to contribute on this point.

I do strongly agree with Gerard that a better interface for presenting the
excellent work of Wikisource communities to readers should be a high
priority.

-Pete
[[User:Peteforsyth]]
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Our problem with India

Milos Rancic-2
My last mail for today, so Anne, just to say that I really appreciate
what you've done, but I'll comment in a bit more detail tomorrow.

On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 8:01 PM, Pete Forsyth <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I'll leave the "defensive" bit aside, and just reiterate that I *still* do
> not understand exactly what problem you're trying to focus discussion on.
> In the piece of text Asaf quoted, you used the words "it" and "reports." I
> don't know what you intend by those words. Maybe for some reason you feel
> it's Asaf's job to clarify that for the rest of the list's readers; maybe
> so. I don't have more to contribute on this point.

The background goes this way...

I've been approached privately two years ago about the issues that
bother significant part of Indian Wikimedian community. As I think
that's in the range of quite solvable issues, my instinct was to talk
with the relevant people inside of the Wikimedia movement (not just
WMF). I thought it's been solved and I forgot for that. However, two
years later I am listening about the same problems. So, I am pissed
off enough to start talking about that on this list.

However, if I say everything I know, I would for sure harm a number of
people. And I am not willing to do that no matter how pissed off or
drunk I am. The situation is not good, but far from being any kind of
catastrophe.

But I want to see the problem solved. So, I am giving quite enough of
information about the problems (cf. my first email, then my response
to Risker) and expect the beginning of communication. The responses
are telling me what's safe to talk about and what's not. I also expect
to be convinced that the most of Indian Wikimedians will be content at
the end of this process.

So, the research is very good thing and I am again positively
surprised by the attitude of WMF. However, that's not enough.

I also want to say that what I said in my first email and in my
response to Risker is the core of the problem. Many particular issues
are not useful (and could be harmful). I understand that many people
on this list don't realize how those issues are important, but they
*are* vitally important to the Indian part of our movement.

In other words, although I am not disclosing all of information I
have, mostly to protect privacy of some people, I am not cryptic at
all. It is just a matter of what's perceived as important to a Western
and what to an Indian Wikimedian.

--
Milos

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Our problem with India

Peter Southwood
What we've got here is a failure to communicate.

-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Milos Rancic
Sent: Tuesday, 28 June 2016 8:43 PM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Our problem with India

My last mail for today, so Anne, just to say that I really appreciate what you've done, but I'll comment in a bit more detail tomorrow.

On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 8:01 PM, Pete Forsyth <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I'll leave the "defensive" bit aside, and just reiterate that I
> *still* do not understand exactly what problem you're trying to focus discussion on.
> In the piece of text Asaf quoted, you used the words "it" and
> "reports." I don't know what you intend by those words. Maybe for some
> reason you feel it's Asaf's job to clarify that for the rest of the
> list's readers; maybe so. I don't have more to contribute on this point.

The background goes this way...

I've been approached privately two years ago about the issues that bother significant part of Indian Wikimedian community. As I think that's in the range of quite solvable issues, my instinct was to talk with the relevant people inside of the Wikimedia movement (not just WMF). I thought it's been solved and I forgot for that. However, two years later I am listening about the same problems. So, I am pissed off enough to start talking about that on this list.

However, if I say everything I know, I would for sure harm a number of people. And I am not willing to do that no matter how pissed off or drunk I am. The situation is not good, but far from being any kind of catastrophe.

But I want to see the problem solved. So, I am giving quite enough of information about the problems (cf. my first email, then my response to Risker) and expect the beginning of communication. The responses are telling me what's safe to talk about and what's not. I also expect to be convinced that the most of Indian Wikimedians will be content at the end of this process.

So, the research is very good thing and I am again positively surprised by the attitude of WMF. However, that's not enough.

I also want to say that what I said in my first email and in my response to Risker is the core of the problem. Many particular issues are not useful (and could be harmful). I understand that many people on this list don't realize how those issues are important, but they
*are* vitally important to the Indian part of our movement.

In other words, although I am not disclosing all of information I have, mostly to protect privacy of some people, I am not cryptic at all. It is just a matter of what's perceived as important to a Western and what to an Indian Wikimedian.

--
Milos

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