[Wikimedia-l] Overloaded with CentralNotices

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[Wikimedia-l] Overloaded with CentralNotices

Romaine Wiki
On the Dutch Wikipedia users have indicated that they perceive the number of Global Notices too much and the more that happens the more users will start to add code to their preferences to fully block every notice as they are so tired of them.

The current load of negative feedback about the banners is currently coming up after the especially the FDC banners

Every week a new notice is considered too much.

I already noticed earlier that there is also some kind of banner blindness for many users: they get a banner on pages but do not look at them any more just as it are adds.

This time several users got a notice in English what was perceived disturbing.

Also they experience getting banners as not interesting for Wikipedia.

As bonus I personally and other users have experienced that clicking away a banner made the banner appear again within the hour visiting other pages. I had that at least four times on a project, on several projects. Re-appeasring after being clicked away is useless and disturbing.

Also it is annoying that I need to click the same banners away on each project I visit, many users visit Wikipedia, but also work on Commons, Wikidata, etc.


I think the the CentralNotice should be redesigned or the CentralNotice will loose it effectiveness. Something is really going wrong.


Romaine

(tech ambassador for nl Wikipedia)

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-ambassadors] Overloaded with CentralNotices

Κωνσταντίνος Σταμπουλής
2013/10/29 Dan Garry <[hidden email]>
>
> How would you suggest we tackle this problem?
>

Echo can be a good alternative.
Imagine a new notification for every user, a "global notice" (not a talk
page message)
This can be sent to registered users, with its own icon, a notification
message with text simillar to what it would be included in a banner, and
linking to the relevant page (instead of own talk page etc).
So, every user will get it only once, but he can go back to it by clicking
the notifications icon.

mockup: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Echo-centralnotice.png

Konstantinos Stampoulis
[hidden email]
http://www.geraki.gr
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Overloaded with CentralNotices

Tilman Bayer
In reply to this post by Romaine Wiki
Hi Romaine,

On Tue, Oct 29, 2013 at 8:49 AM, Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On the Dutch Wikipedia users have indicated that they perceive the number of Global Notices too much and the more that happens the more users will start to add code to their preferences to fully block every notice as they are so tired of them.
>
> The current load of negative feedback about the banners is currently coming up after the especially the FDC banners

I assume that by "current load of negative feedback", you mean the
comments by Grashoofd and Saschaporsche in this discussion?
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:De_kroeg#Wikimedia_Spam
Thank you for resolving some misconceptions there (e.g. the assumption
that these banners were shown to all Dutch Wikipedia readers  - they
are set to be displayed to logged-in users only); I also responded to
some other points in that thread.

About the FDC banners in general:

The FDC - itself consisting of volunteer community members - considers
it really important that the editing community gets to have a say in
the process of how donation money is allocated to various Wikimedia
organizations in the FDC process. See e.g. their recent blog post at
https://blog.wikimedia.org/2013/10/25/call-for-community-input-funding-proposals-11-wikimedia-organisations/
(as mentioned there, this time the decisions are particularly
difficult, as the amount requested in this round is already close to
what's available for the whole year including next round's requests,
$6 million). Without the work of the editing community, this money
would not be available. Even if admittedly many editors are either not
interested in participating in discussions on how to spend it, or do
not have the time, I think it's still important to widely inform the
community of this possibility.

CentralNotice banners are currently the most effective way of making
community members aware of this opportunity to influence the process,
which happens twice a year (once a year if you only consider a
particular organization/country), and is closing soon for this round.
The country-specific FDC banners invite editors to comment
specifically on the funding request from an organization in that
country (Wikimedia Nederland in this case), which is assumed to be
particularly relevant for them, as the majority of the planned
spending in each proposal tends to be for activities supporting
precisely this local editing community.

>
> Every week a new notice is considered too much.

I assume that "every week" is a rhetorical expression. However, it's
true that this month there have been three campaigns specific to the
Dutch Wikipedia/the Netherlands.  Curiously, you are omitting the fact
that it was yourself who ran two of them:

"WMNL-register-WCN-2013" (inviting registration for the
Wikiconferentie) - run on "high" priority for both logged-in and
anonymous users, for 17 days in two countries

"WMNL-edit-a-thon-DenHaag"  (inviting participation in an edit-a-thon)
 - run on "high" priority for both logged-in and anonymous users, for
two days in one country


In comparison, the above mentioned FDC community review invitations
run on "normal" priority and only for logged-in users, i.e. get vastly
less exposure than these two event invitations. And I would argue that
the number of users who are able to follow the invitation to
participate in an online activity (like commenting on a wiki page in
case of the FDC, or uploading images in case of WLM) is much higher
than the number of users who are able to travel and spend the time to
attend a physical event in a particular location. I'm not opposed to
the use of CentralNotice to promote a nationwide annual conference.
However, if one is concerned about banner blindness and worried that
users are "overloaded with CentralNotices", it's probably worth asking
the question if a single editathon in one city needs to be advertised
with "high" priority countrywide banners to anonymous users. The
English Wikipedia tends to use geotargeted watchlist notices for that
kind of announcement instead
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Geonotice ).

>
> I already noticed earlier that there is also some kind of banner blindness for many users: they get a banner on pages but do not look at them any more just as it are adds.
>
That's indeed something to be concerned about, and it's one reason for
adding upcoming banner campaigns to the public planning page at
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/CentralNotice/Calendar , to facilitate
coordination and discussion. It seems that this wasn't done for the
above mentioned editathon banners. The current FDC banners have been
announced there since October 1, and while I am taking the criticism
that you are mentioning serious, I would also like to note that it is
the first such criticism about them that is coming to my attention.

> This time several users got a notice in English what was perceived disturbing.
>
All the FDC banners contain a link inviting to add missing
translations (the global banner has been translated into >70
languages), but at least for major languages like Dutch, the intention
is indeed to get them translated before they go live. As you said
yourself on the De Kroeg, this banner was available in Dutch when it
came live yesterday.

> Also they experience getting banners as not interesting for Wikipedia.
>
> As bonus I personally and other users have experienced that clicking away a banner made the banner appear again within the hour visiting other pages. I had that at least four times on a project, on several projects. Re-appeasring after being clicked away is useless and disturbing.

Yes, that should not happen. The banners rely on a cookie to store
this user choice. A possible reason could be that the cookie got lost
e.g. when the browser was restarted, or it might be a bug.

>
> Also it is annoying that I need to click the same banners away on each project I visit, many users visit Wikipedia, but also work on Commons, Wikidata, etc.
>
I agree, that's something worth looking into - I assume it would need
additional technical work.

>
> I think the the CentralNotice should be redesigned or the CentralNotice will loose it effectiveness. Something is really going wrong.
>
>
> Romaine
>
> (tech ambassador for nl Wikipedia)
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>



--
Tilman Bayer
Senior Operations Analyst (Movement Communications)
Wikimedia Foundation
IRC (Freenode): HaeB

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-ambassadors] Overloaded with CentralNotices

Tilman Bayer
In reply to this post by Κωνσταντίνος Σταμπουλής
On Tue, Oct 29, 2013 at 1:22 PM, Konstantinos Stampoulis
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> 2013/10/29 Dan Garry <[hidden email]>
>>
>> How would you suggest we tackle this problem?
>>
>
> Echo can be a good alternative.
> Imagine a new notification for every user, a "global notice" (not a talk
> page message)
> This can be sent to registered users, with its own icon, a notification
> message with text simillar to what it would be included in a banner, and
> linking to the relevant page (instead of own talk page etc).
> So, every user will get it only once, but he can go back to it by clicking
> the notifications icon.
>
> mockup: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Echo-centralnotice.png
>

Yes, that could be a great idea, in particular when combined with some
kind of topic-specific opt-in and opt-out.

There has been quite a bit of thinking about technical solutions to
this kind of problem, including hope that Echo and/or Flow could play
a role in them. See e.g. the material at
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Movement_broadcasting , in particular
the linked Wikimania presentations from this year (by Andrew Gray) and
last year (by myself).


--
Tilman Bayer
Senior Operations Analyst (Movement Communications)
Wikimedia Foundation
IRC (Freenode): HaeB

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-ambassadors] Overloaded with CentralNotices

Legoktm
On Tue, Oct 29, 2013 at 3:41 PM, Tilman Bayer <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On Tue, Oct 29, 2013 at 1:22 PM, Konstantinos Stampoulis
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Echo can be a good alternative.
> > Imagine a new notification for every user, a "global notice" (not a talk
> > page message)
> > This can be sent to registered users, with its own icon, a notification
> > message with text simillar to what it would be included in a banner, and
> > linking to the relevant page (instead of own talk page etc).
> > So, every user will get it only once, but he can go back to it by clicking
> > the notifications icon.
> >
> > mockup: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Echo-centralnotice.png
> >
>
> Yes, that could be a great idea, in particular when combined with some
> kind of topic-specific opt-in and opt-out.
>
> There has been quite a bit of thinking about technical solutions to
> this kind of problem, including hope that Echo and/or Flow could play
> a role in them. See e.g. the material at
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Movement_broadcasting , in particular
> the linked Wikimania presentations from this year (by Andrew Gray) and
> last year (by myself).


I like this idea too. I've filed
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56361 as an enhancement
request for Echo to enable this kind of functionality.
-- Legoktm

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Overloaded with CentralNotices

ENWP Pine
In reply to this post by Romaine Wiki
For English Wikipedia I also feel that the FDC banner is annoying and probably not very useful for editors or effective for requesting community input. A watchlist notice would be more proportionate but even that is a stretch because FDC is far removed from most editors' on-wiki interests. The FDC's work is important but I think requests for community input should be better targeted. Along the lines of what Nemo said, I think recruiting editors to become active in affiliates would be a better on-wiki action and an indirect way to get more comments on FDC proposals. There could also be work done to have more affiliates do peer reviews of each others' budgets.

Pine

> Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 10:37:18 +0100
> From: "Federico Leva (Nemo)" <[hidden email]>
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Overloaded with CentralNotices (Tilman
> Bayer)
> Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
> Jane Darnell, 30/10/2013 09:30:
> > I second your skepticism. Especially since most Dutch Wikipedians have no idea what WMNL is, according to a survey.
>
> Good point. Maybe all those who care about a chapter and its spending
> are already members of the chapter so that they can participate in the
> assembly which decide on it (and related online discussions)? :)
>
> If we want greater community review of their spending, perhaps it would
> make sense to run campaigns for community members to join the chapter.
> Maybe other people have different experiences, but the associations I
> know of usually try to convince you to join the association ("it's cool
> for X! you are important for Y!") and then they try to gradually involve
> you more; I've never seen an association on a street distributing
> dozens-pages books "hey! do you want to review our budget? it's great
> fun! we value your input".
>
> Nemo
>
>
>
     
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Overloaded with CentralNotices

Tilman Bayer
On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 12:42 AM, Dariusz Jemielniak <[hidden email]> wrote:

> hi,
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 3:57 AM, Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]>
>  wrote:
>
>> The reason why I wrote is not to blame anyone, but to promote thinking of
>> other ways to communicate to the local communities.
>
>
>
> I'm skeptical, if a general banner is the best idea, too. Since quite
> likely only the more active WIkipedia users will comment on the FDC
> process, going to the Village Pump on local projects would be probably
> equally effective.

Yes, sending out messages to village pumps is an option that we
considered as well (using Global Message Delivery). However, based on
my experience there is no doubt that this would have been considerably
less effective.  There is a lot of active users who don't frequent
village pumps (or mailing lists) at all. To consider a concrete
example we may recall from the FDC's own history, the call for
volunteers that led to the formation of the initial committee was
first announced via a global message to village pumps in July 2012,
and then promoted with a CentralNotice banner (to logged-in users) in
August. In July it received 766 pageviews, in August it was 11,123.
(http://stats.grok.se/meta.m/201208/Funds_Dissemination_Committee/Call_for_Volunteers
)

Of course it is to some degree a political decision how much normal
editors should be integrated into the decisionmaking process about
this donation money, and as such not mine to make. I do think that for
proposals that plan to spend money on supporting the local editing
community in their work, members of that community have special
expertise when it comes to assessing on how effective the planned
measures might be.

--
Tilman Bayer
Senior Operations Analyst (Movement Communications)
Wikimedia Foundation
IRC (Freenode): HaeB

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Overloaded with CentralNotices

Matthew Walker
In reply to this post by Romaine Wiki
"As bonus I personally and other users have experienced that clicking away
a banner made the banner appear again within the hour visiting other pages.
I had that at least four times on a project, on several projects.
Re-appeasring after being clicked away is useless and disturbing."

I'm not sure what happened here; a banner should not reappear after you
click hide (at least not until two weeks have elapsed).

"Also it is annoying that I need to click the same banners away on each
project I visit, many users visit Wikipedia, but also work on Commons,
Wikidata, etc."

Bug 16821 addresses this issue. I have submitted a patch [2] today that
will enable this. I am coordinating with Greg G; but will probably deploy
the patch (and another one that will make CentralNotice use mobile URLs on
the mobile site) tomorrow in the Lighting Deploy window at 1600 PST.

[1] https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=16821
[2] https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/92777/

~Matt Walker
Wikimedia Foundation
Fundraising Technology Team
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Overloaded with CentralNotices

Yaroslav M. Blanter
In reply to this post by Tilman Bayer
Concerning FDC and similar notices:

Could we may be once ask users to sign up for possible evaluations, and
then send to those who signed up messages via the echo? (With no
obligation to actually participate)? Basically meta-active users would
sign up, and others would stop getting messages/notices they find
annoying?

Cheers
Yaroslav

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