[Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

Peter Southwood
Those who pay get to select what is translated.
Cheers,
Peter

-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Jean-Philippe Béland
Sent: 24 February 2018 16:55
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

I think the request for such projects should come from the concerned language projects, same for the list of articles. If not, in my simple opinion, it is a form of coloniasm again.

Jean-Philippe Béland
Vice President, Wikimedia Canada


On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 9:40 AM John Erling Blad <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Should have added that the remaining points are somewhat less
> interesting in this context. Preloading a set of articles is a bad
> idea, the translators should be able to chose for themselves. Articles
> should also be pretty broad, not very narrow technical or medical, ie
> vertical articles, as the number of editors that can handle those will be pretty small.
>
> In particular: Do not believe you can turn a teanslator into a new editor!
> You can although turn an existing editor into a translator.
>
> On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 3:34 PM, John Erling Blad <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > 1) You must start with high quality content and thus all articles
> > are
> >> extensively improved before being proposed for translation.
> >
> >
> > Note that to much pressure on "quality" can easily kill the project.
> >
> > 3) The "Content Translation" tool developed by the WMF made efforts
> > more
> >> efficient than handing around word documents. Would love to see
> >> that
> tool
> >> improved further such as having it support specific lists of
> >> articles
> that
> >> are deemed ready for translation by certain groups. Would also love
> >> the tool to have tracking metrics for these types of projects.
> >
> >
> > Didn't mention ContentTranslation, but it should be pretty obvious.
> >
> > 4) We used volunteer translators mostly associated with our partner
> >> Translators Without Borders. One issue we found was that languages
> >> in which their are lots of translators such as French, Spanish, and
> >> Italian there is often already at least some content on many of the
> >> topics in question.
> The
> >> issue than becomes integration which needs an expert Wikipedia. And
> >> for languages in which we have little content there are often few
> >> avaliable volunteers.
> >
> >
> > I used projects below 65k articles as an example, as the chance of
> > competing articles are pretty low.
> >
> > 5) With respect to "paying per word" the problem is this would
> > require
> >> significant checks and balances to make sure people are taking the
> >> work seriously and not simple using Google translate for the 70 or
> >> so
> languages
> >> in which it claims to work. We often had translations undergo a
> >> second review and the volunteers at TWB have to pass certain tests
> >> to be accepted.
> >
> >
> > I'n my original email I wrote "verified good translators". It is as
> > simple as "Has the editor contributed other articles at the project?"
> >
> > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 2:26 PM, James Heilman <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> We learned a few things during the medical translation project
> >> which started back in 2011:
> >>
> >> 1) You must start with high quality content and thus all articles
> >> are extensively improved before being proposed for translation.
> >>
> >> 2) A lot of languages want "less" content than is present on EN WP.
> >> Thus we moved to just improving and suggesting for translation the
> >> leads of the English articles.
> >>
> >> 3) The "Content Translation" tool developed by the WMF made efforts
> >> more efficient than handing around word documents. Would love to
> >> see that
> tool
> >> improved further such as having it support specific lists of
> >> articles
> that
> >> are deemed ready for translation by certain groups. Would also love
> >> the tool to have tracking metrics for these types of projects.
> >>
> >> 4) We used volunteer translators mostly associated with our partner
> >> Translators Without Borders. One issue we found was that languages
> >> in which their are lots of translators such as French, Spanish, and
> >> Italian there is often already at least some content on many of the
> >> topics in question.
> The
> >> issue than becomes integration which needs an expert Wikipedia. And
> >> for languages in which we have little content there are often few
> >> avaliable volunteers.
> >>
> >> 5) With respect to "paying per word" the problem is this would
> >> require significant checks and balances to make sure people are
> >> taking the work seriously and not simple using Google translate for
> >> the 70 or so
> languages
> >> in which it claims to work. We often had translations undergo a
> >> second review and the volunteers at TWB have to pass certain tests
> >> to be accepted.
> >>
> >> 6) I hired a coordinator for the translation project for a couple
> >> of years.
> >> The translators at TWB did not want to become Wikipedians or learn
> >> how
> to
> >> use our systems. The coordinator created account like TransSW001
> >> (one
> for
> >> each volunteer) and preloaded the article to be translated into
> >> Content Translation. They than gave the volunteer translator the
> >> user name and password to the account.
> >>
> >> 7) Were are we at now? There are currently just over 1,000 leads of
> >> articles that have been improved and are ready for translation.
> >> This includes articles on the 440 medications that are on the WHO
> >> Essential List. We have worked a bit in some 100 languages. The
> >> efforts have resulted in more than 5 million works translated and
> >> integrated into different Wikipedias. The coordinator has
> >> unfortunately moved on to his real job
> of
> >> teaching high school students.
> >>
> >> 8) The project continues but at a slower pace than before. The
> Wikipedian
> >> and retired orthopedic surgeon Subas Chandra Rout has basically
> >> single handedly translated nearly all 1,000 leads into Odia a
> >> language spoken
> by
> >> 40 million people in Eastern India. The amazing thing is that for
> >> many
> of
> >> these topics this is the first and only information online about it.
> >> Google
> >> translate does not even claim to work in this language. Our
> >> partnerships with WMTW and medical school in Taipai continue to
> >> translate into
> Chinese.
> >> There the students translate and than their translations are
> >> reviewed by their profs before being posted. They translate in
> >> groups using hackpad
> to
> >> make it more social.
> >>
> >> I am currently working to re invigorate the project :-) James
> >>
> >> On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 5:51 AM, John Erling Blad
> >> <[hidden email]>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > This discussion is going to be fun! =D
> >> >
> >> > A little more than seventy Wikipedia-projects has more than 65k
> >> articles,
> >> > the remaining two hundred or so are pretty small.
> >> >
> >> > What if a base set of articles were opened for paid translators?
> >> > There
> >> are
> >> > several lists of such base sets. We have both the thousand
> >> > articles
> from
> >> > "List of articles every Wikipedia should have"[1] and and the ten
> >> thousand
> >> > articles from the expanded list[2].
> >> >
> >> > Lets say verified good translators was paid about $0.01 per word
> (about
> >> $1
> >> > for a 1k-article) for translating one of those articles into
> >> > another language, with perhaps a higher pay for contributors in
> >> > high-cost countries. The pay would also have to be higher for
> >> > languages that
> lacks
> >> > good translation tools.
> >> >
> >> > I believe this would be an _enabling_ activity for the
> >> > communities, as without a base set of articles it won't be
> >> > possible to build a
> >> community at
> >> > all. By not paying for new articles, and only translating
> >> well-referenced
> >> > articles, some of the disputes in the communities could be avoided.
> >> Perhaps
> >> > we should also identify good source articles, that would be a help.
> >> > Translated articles should be above some minimum size, but they
> >> > does
> not
> >> > have to be full translations of the source article.
> >> >
> >> > A real problem is that our existing lists of good articles other
> >> projects
> >> > should have is pretty much biased towards Western World, so they
> >> > need
> a
> >> lot
> >> > of adjustments. Perhaps such a project would identify our inherit
> bias?
> >> >
> >> > [1]
> >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_every_
> >> > Wikipedia_should_have
> >> > [2]
> >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_every_
> >> > Wikipedia_should_have/Expanded
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to:
> >> > [hidden email]
> >> > Unsubscribe:
> >> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> ,
> >> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscri
> >> > be>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> James Heilman
> >> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik i/Wikimedia-l New messages to:
> >> [hidden email]
> >> Unsubscribe:
> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> >> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
_______________________________________________
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New messages to: [hidden email]
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

Todd Allen
Yes, and then there's always the question. If he's getting paid, why aren't
I? Why is he getting paid per word of article translated? Why am I not
getting paid per spamvertisement deleted or vandal blocked? Why am I not
getting paid for closing discussions that it takes hours of reading input
and considering all sides and getting rocks thrown at me no matter what I
do? Is that not valuable to the project as well?

If you want to pay anyone, you better start paying me. I'm okay with the
idea of being a volunteer as long as everyone is a volunteer. But if you
start paying some people and not me, we're going to have a problem.

Todd

On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 12:47 PM, Peter Southwood <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Those who pay get to select what is translated.
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of Jean-Philippe Béland
> Sent: 24 February 2018 16:55
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation
>
> I think the request for such projects should come from the concerned
> language projects, same for the list of articles. If not, in my simple
> opinion, it is a form of coloniasm again.
>
> Jean-Philippe Béland
> Vice President, Wikimedia Canada
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 9:40 AM John Erling Blad <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Should have added that the remaining points are somewhat less
> > interesting in this context. Preloading a set of articles is a bad
> > idea, the translators should be able to chose for themselves. Articles
> > should also be pretty broad, not very narrow technical or medical, ie
> > vertical articles, as the number of editors that can handle those will
> be pretty small.
> >
> > In particular: Do not believe you can turn a teanslator into a new
> editor!
> > You can although turn an existing editor into a translator.
> >
> > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 3:34 PM, John Erling Blad <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > 1) You must start with high quality content and thus all articles
> > > are
> > >> extensively improved before being proposed for translation.
> > >
> > >
> > > Note that to much pressure on "quality" can easily kill the project.
> > >
> > > 3) The "Content Translation" tool developed by the WMF made efforts
> > > more
> > >> efficient than handing around word documents. Would love to see
> > >> that
> > tool
> > >> improved further such as having it support specific lists of
> > >> articles
> > that
> > >> are deemed ready for translation by certain groups. Would also love
> > >> the tool to have tracking metrics for these types of projects.
> > >
> > >
> > > Didn't mention ContentTranslation, but it should be pretty obvious.
> > >
> > > 4) We used volunteer translators mostly associated with our partner
> > >> Translators Without Borders. One issue we found was that languages
> > >> in which their are lots of translators such as French, Spanish, and
> > >> Italian there is often already at least some content on many of the
> > >> topics in question.
> > The
> > >> issue than becomes integration which needs an expert Wikipedia. And
> > >> for languages in which we have little content there are often few
> > >> avaliable volunteers.
> > >
> > >
> > > I used projects below 65k articles as an example, as the chance of
> > > competing articles are pretty low.
> > >
> > > 5) With respect to "paying per word" the problem is this would
> > > require
> > >> significant checks and balances to make sure people are taking the
> > >> work seriously and not simple using Google translate for the 70 or
> > >> so
> > languages
> > >> in which it claims to work. We often had translations undergo a
> > >> second review and the volunteers at TWB have to pass certain tests
> > >> to be accepted.
> > >
> > >
> > > I'n my original email I wrote "verified good translators". It is as
> > > simple as "Has the editor contributed other articles at the project?"
> > >
> > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 2:26 PM, James Heilman <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > >
> > >> We learned a few things during the medical translation project
> > >> which started back in 2011:
> > >>
> > >> 1) You must start with high quality content and thus all articles
> > >> are extensively improved before being proposed for translation.
> > >>
> > >> 2) A lot of languages want "less" content than is present on EN WP.
> > >> Thus we moved to just improving and suggesting for translation the
> > >> leads of the English articles.
> > >>
> > >> 3) The "Content Translation" tool developed by the WMF made efforts
> > >> more efficient than handing around word documents. Would love to
> > >> see that
> > tool
> > >> improved further such as having it support specific lists of
> > >> articles
> > that
> > >> are deemed ready for translation by certain groups. Would also love
> > >> the tool to have tracking metrics for these types of projects.
> > >>
> > >> 4) We used volunteer translators mostly associated with our partner
> > >> Translators Without Borders. One issue we found was that languages
> > >> in which their are lots of translators such as French, Spanish, and
> > >> Italian there is often already at least some content on many of the
> > >> topics in question.
> > The
> > >> issue than becomes integration which needs an expert Wikipedia. And
> > >> for languages in which we have little content there are often few
> > >> avaliable volunteers.
> > >>
> > >> 5) With respect to "paying per word" the problem is this would
> > >> require significant checks and balances to make sure people are
> > >> taking the work seriously and not simple using Google translate for
> > >> the 70 or so
> > languages
> > >> in which it claims to work. We often had translations undergo a
> > >> second review and the volunteers at TWB have to pass certain tests
> > >> to be accepted.
> > >>
> > >> 6) I hired a coordinator for the translation project for a couple
> > >> of years.
> > >> The translators at TWB did not want to become Wikipedians or learn
> > >> how
> > to
> > >> use our systems. The coordinator created account like TransSW001
> > >> (one
> > for
> > >> each volunteer) and preloaded the article to be translated into
> > >> Content Translation. They than gave the volunteer translator the
> > >> user name and password to the account.
> > >>
> > >> 7) Were are we at now? There are currently just over 1,000 leads of
> > >> articles that have been improved and are ready for translation.
> > >> This includes articles on the 440 medications that are on the WHO
> > >> Essential List. We have worked a bit in some 100 languages. The
> > >> efforts have resulted in more than 5 million works translated and
> > >> integrated into different Wikipedias. The coordinator has
> > >> unfortunately moved on to his real job
> > of
> > >> teaching high school students.
> > >>
> > >> 8) The project continues but at a slower pace than before. The
> > Wikipedian
> > >> and retired orthopedic surgeon Subas Chandra Rout has basically
> > >> single handedly translated nearly all 1,000 leads into Odia a
> > >> language spoken
> > by
> > >> 40 million people in Eastern India. The amazing thing is that for
> > >> many
> > of
> > >> these topics this is the first and only information online about it.
> > >> Google
> > >> translate does not even claim to work in this language. Our
> > >> partnerships with WMTW and medical school in Taipai continue to
> > >> translate into
> > Chinese.
> > >> There the students translate and than their translations are
> > >> reviewed by their profs before being posted. They translate in
> > >> groups using hackpad
> > to
> > >> make it more social.
> > >>
> > >> I am currently working to re invigorate the project :-) James
> > >>
> > >> On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 5:51 AM, John Erling Blad
> > >> <[hidden email]>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > This discussion is going to be fun! =D
> > >> >
> > >> > A little more than seventy Wikipedia-projects has more than 65k
> > >> articles,
> > >> > the remaining two hundred or so are pretty small.
> > >> >
> > >> > What if a base set of articles were opened for paid translators?
> > >> > There
> > >> are
> > >> > several lists of such base sets. We have both the thousand
> > >> > articles
> > from
> > >> > "List of articles every Wikipedia should have"[1] and and the ten
> > >> thousand
> > >> > articles from the expanded list[2].
> > >> >
> > >> > Lets say verified good translators was paid about $0.01 per word
> > (about
> > >> $1
> > >> > for a 1k-article) for translating one of those articles into
> > >> > another language, with perhaps a higher pay for contributors in
> > >> > high-cost countries. The pay would also have to be higher for
> > >> > languages that
> > lacks
> > >> > good translation tools.
> > >> >
> > >> > I believe this would be an _enabling_ activity for the
> > >> > communities, as without a base set of articles it won't be
> > >> > possible to build a
> > >> community at
> > >> > all. By not paying for new articles, and only translating
> > >> well-referenced
> > >> > articles, some of the disputes in the communities could be avoided.
> > >> Perhaps
> > >> > we should also identify good source articles, that would be a help.
> > >> > Translated articles should be above some minimum size, but they
> > >> > does
> > not
> > >> > have to be full translations of the source article.
> > >> >
> > >> > A real problem is that our existing lists of good articles other
> > >> projects
> > >> > should have is pretty much biased towards Western World, so they
> > >> > need
> > a
> > >> lot
> > >> > of adjustments. Perhaps such a project would identify our inherit
> > bias?
> > >> >
> > >> > [1]
> > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_every_
> > >> > Wikipedia_should_have
> > >> > [2]
> > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_every_
> > >> > Wikipedia_should_have/Expanded
> > >> > _______________________________________________
> > >> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to:
> > >> > [hidden email]
> > >> > Unsubscribe:
> > >> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > ,
> > >> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscri
> > >> > be>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> James Heilman
> > >> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik i/Wikimedia-l New messages to:
> > >> [hidden email]
> > >> Unsubscribe:
> > >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > >> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

Yaroslav Blanter
I actually agree with Todd, and I though this is actually a reason why WMF
staff may not edit articles (at least not from WMF accounts). I am afraid
disadvantages due to the broken symmetry will be bigger than advantages due
to actual content translated.

Cheers
Yaroslav

On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 9:40 PM, Todd Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Yes, and then there's always the question. If he's getting paid, why aren't
> I? Why is he getting paid per word of article translated? Why am I not
> getting paid per spamvertisement deleted or vandal blocked? Why am I not
> getting paid for closing discussions that it takes hours of reading input
> and considering all sides and getting rocks thrown at me no matter what I
> do? Is that not valuable to the project as well?
>
> If you want to pay anyone, you better start paying me. I'm okay with the
> idea of being a volunteer as long as everyone is a volunteer. But if you
> start paying some people and not me, we're going to have a problem.
>
> Todd
>
> On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 12:47 PM, Peter Southwood <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Those who pay get to select what is translated.
> > Cheers,
> > Peter
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> > Behalf Of Jean-Philippe Béland
> > Sent: 24 February 2018 16:55
> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation
> >
> > I think the request for such projects should come from the concerned
> > language projects, same for the list of articles. If not, in my simple
> > opinion, it is a form of coloniasm again.
> >
> > Jean-Philippe Béland
> > Vice President, Wikimedia Canada
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 9:40 AM John Erling Blad <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> > > Should have added that the remaining points are somewhat less
> > > interesting in this context. Preloading a set of articles is a bad
> > > idea, the translators should be able to chose for themselves. Articles
> > > should also be pretty broad, not very narrow technical or medical, ie
> > > vertical articles, as the number of editors that can handle those will
> > be pretty small.
> > >
> > > In particular: Do not believe you can turn a teanslator into a new
> > editor!
> > > You can although turn an existing editor into a translator.
> > >
> > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 3:34 PM, John Erling Blad <[hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > 1) You must start with high quality content and thus all articles
> > > > are
> > > >> extensively improved before being proposed for translation.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Note that to much pressure on "quality" can easily kill the project.
> > > >
> > > > 3) The "Content Translation" tool developed by the WMF made efforts
> > > > more
> > > >> efficient than handing around word documents. Would love to see
> > > >> that
> > > tool
> > > >> improved further such as having it support specific lists of
> > > >> articles
> > > that
> > > >> are deemed ready for translation by certain groups. Would also love
> > > >> the tool to have tracking metrics for these types of projects.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Didn't mention ContentTranslation, but it should be pretty obvious.
> > > >
> > > > 4) We used volunteer translators mostly associated with our partner
> > > >> Translators Without Borders. One issue we found was that languages
> > > >> in which their are lots of translators such as French, Spanish, and
> > > >> Italian there is often already at least some content on many of the
> > > >> topics in question.
> > > The
> > > >> issue than becomes integration which needs an expert Wikipedia. And
> > > >> for languages in which we have little content there are often few
> > > >> avaliable volunteers.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I used projects below 65k articles as an example, as the chance of
> > > > competing articles are pretty low.
> > > >
> > > > 5) With respect to "paying per word" the problem is this would
> > > > require
> > > >> significant checks and balances to make sure people are taking the
> > > >> work seriously and not simple using Google translate for the 70 or
> > > >> so
> > > languages
> > > >> in which it claims to work. We often had translations undergo a
> > > >> second review and the volunteers at TWB have to pass certain tests
> > > >> to be accepted.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I'n my original email I wrote "verified good translators". It is as
> > > > simple as "Has the editor contributed other articles at the project?"
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 2:26 PM, James Heilman <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> We learned a few things during the medical translation project
> > > >> which started back in 2011:
> > > >>
> > > >> 1) You must start with high quality content and thus all articles
> > > >> are extensively improved before being proposed for translation.
> > > >>
> > > >> 2) A lot of languages want "less" content than is present on EN WP.
> > > >> Thus we moved to just improving and suggesting for translation the
> > > >> leads of the English articles.
> > > >>
> > > >> 3) The "Content Translation" tool developed by the WMF made efforts
> > > >> more efficient than handing around word documents. Would love to
> > > >> see that
> > > tool
> > > >> improved further such as having it support specific lists of
> > > >> articles
> > > that
> > > >> are deemed ready for translation by certain groups. Would also love
> > > >> the tool to have tracking metrics for these types of projects.
> > > >>
> > > >> 4) We used volunteer translators mostly associated with our partner
> > > >> Translators Without Borders. One issue we found was that languages
> > > >> in which their are lots of translators such as French, Spanish, and
> > > >> Italian there is often already at least some content on many of the
> > > >> topics in question.
> > > The
> > > >> issue than becomes integration which needs an expert Wikipedia. And
> > > >> for languages in which we have little content there are often few
> > > >> avaliable volunteers.
> > > >>
> > > >> 5) With respect to "paying per word" the problem is this would
> > > >> require significant checks and balances to make sure people are
> > > >> taking the work seriously and not simple using Google translate for
> > > >> the 70 or so
> > > languages
> > > >> in which it claims to work. We often had translations undergo a
> > > >> second review and the volunteers at TWB have to pass certain tests
> > > >> to be accepted.
> > > >>
> > > >> 6) I hired a coordinator for the translation project for a couple
> > > >> of years.
> > > >> The translators at TWB did not want to become Wikipedians or learn
> > > >> how
> > > to
> > > >> use our systems. The coordinator created account like TransSW001
> > > >> (one
> > > for
> > > >> each volunteer) and preloaded the article to be translated into
> > > >> Content Translation. They than gave the volunteer translator the
> > > >> user name and password to the account.
> > > >>
> > > >> 7) Were are we at now? There are currently just over 1,000 leads of
> > > >> articles that have been improved and are ready for translation.
> > > >> This includes articles on the 440 medications that are on the WHO
> > > >> Essential List. We have worked a bit in some 100 languages. The
> > > >> efforts have resulted in more than 5 million works translated and
> > > >> integrated into different Wikipedias. The coordinator has
> > > >> unfortunately moved on to his real job
> > > of
> > > >> teaching high school students.
> > > >>
> > > >> 8) The project continues but at a slower pace than before. The
> > > Wikipedian
> > > >> and retired orthopedic surgeon Subas Chandra Rout has basically
> > > >> single handedly translated nearly all 1,000 leads into Odia a
> > > >> language spoken
> > > by
> > > >> 40 million people in Eastern India. The amazing thing is that for
> > > >> many
> > > of
> > > >> these topics this is the first and only information online about it.
> > > >> Google
> > > >> translate does not even claim to work in this language. Our
> > > >> partnerships with WMTW and medical school in Taipai continue to
> > > >> translate into
> > > Chinese.
> > > >> There the students translate and than their translations are
> > > >> reviewed by their profs before being posted. They translate in
> > > >> groups using hackpad
> > > to
> > > >> make it more social.
> > > >>
> > > >> I am currently working to re invigorate the project :-) James
> > > >>
> > > >> On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 5:51 AM, John Erling Blad
> > > >> <[hidden email]>
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> > This discussion is going to be fun! =D
> > > >> >
> > > >> > A little more than seventy Wikipedia-projects has more than 65k
> > > >> articles,
> > > >> > the remaining two hundred or so are pretty small.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > What if a base set of articles were opened for paid translators?
> > > >> > There
> > > >> are
> > > >> > several lists of such base sets. We have both the thousand
> > > >> > articles
> > > from
> > > >> > "List of articles every Wikipedia should have"[1] and and the ten
> > > >> thousand
> > > >> > articles from the expanded list[2].
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Lets say verified good translators was paid about $0.01 per word
> > > (about
> > > >> $1
> > > >> > for a 1k-article) for translating one of those articles into
> > > >> > another language, with perhaps a higher pay for contributors in
> > > >> > high-cost countries. The pay would also have to be higher for
> > > >> > languages that
> > > lacks
> > > >> > good translation tools.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > I believe this would be an _enabling_ activity for the
> > > >> > communities, as without a base set of articles it won't be
> > > >> > possible to build a
> > > >> community at
> > > >> > all. By not paying for new articles, and only translating
> > > >> well-referenced
> > > >> > articles, some of the disputes in the communities could be
> avoided.
> > > >> Perhaps
> > > >> > we should also identify good source articles, that would be a
> help.
> > > >> > Translated articles should be above some minimum size, but they
> > > >> > does
> > > not
> > > >> > have to be full translations of the source article.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > A real problem is that our existing lists of good articles other
> > > >> projects
> > > >> > should have is pretty much biased towards Western World, so they
> > > >> > need
> > > a
> > > >> lot
> > > >> > of adjustments. Perhaps such a project would identify our inherit
> > > bias?
> > > >> >
> > > >> > [1]
> > > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_every_
> > > >> > Wikipedia_should_have
> > > >> > [2]
> > > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_every_
> > > >> > Wikipedia_should_have/Expanded
> > > >> > _______________________________________________
> > > >> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to:
> > > >> > [hidden email]
> > > >> > Unsubscribe:
> > > >> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > > ,
> > > >> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscri
> > > >> > be>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> --
> > > >> James Heilman
> > > >> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik i/Wikimedia-l New messages to:
> > > >> [hidden email]
> > > >> Unsubscribe:
> > > >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > >> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe
> > > >> >
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> > ---
> > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> > http://www.avg.com
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
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> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
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> wiki/Wikimedia-l
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

John Erling Blad
In reply to this post by Todd Allen
It is a long time since everyone on these projects were solely volunteers.
:)

On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 9:40 PM, Todd Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Yes, and then there's always the question. If he's getting paid, why aren't
> I? Why is he getting paid per word of article translated? Why am I not
> getting paid per spamvertisement deleted or vandal blocked? Why am I not
> getting paid for closing discussions that it takes hours of reading input
> and considering all sides and getting rocks thrown at me no matter what I
> do? Is that not valuable to the project as well?
>
> If you want to pay anyone, you better start paying me. I'm okay with the
> idea of being a volunteer as long as everyone is a volunteer. But if you
> start paying some people and not me, we're going to have a problem.
>
> Todd
>
> On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 12:47 PM, Peter Southwood <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Those who pay get to select what is translated.
> > Cheers,
> > Peter
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> > Behalf Of Jean-Philippe Béland
> > Sent: 24 February 2018 16:55
> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation
> >
> > I think the request for such projects should come from the concerned
> > language projects, same for the list of articles. If not, in my simple
> > opinion, it is a form of coloniasm again.
> >
> > Jean-Philippe Béland
> > Vice President, Wikimedia Canada
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 9:40 AM John Erling Blad <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> > > Should have added that the remaining points are somewhat less
> > > interesting in this context. Preloading a set of articles is a bad
> > > idea, the translators should be able to chose for themselves. Articles
> > > should also be pretty broad, not very narrow technical or medical, ie
> > > vertical articles, as the number of editors that can handle those will
> > be pretty small.
> > >
> > > In particular: Do not believe you can turn a teanslator into a new
> > editor!
> > > You can although turn an existing editor into a translator.
> > >
> > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 3:34 PM, John Erling Blad <[hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > 1) You must start with high quality content and thus all articles
> > > > are
> > > >> extensively improved before being proposed for translation.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Note that to much pressure on "quality" can easily kill the project.
> > > >
> > > > 3) The "Content Translation" tool developed by the WMF made efforts
> > > > more
> > > >> efficient than handing around word documents. Would love to see
> > > >> that
> > > tool
> > > >> improved further such as having it support specific lists of
> > > >> articles
> > > that
> > > >> are deemed ready for translation by certain groups. Would also love
> > > >> the tool to have tracking metrics for these types of projects.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Didn't mention ContentTranslation, but it should be pretty obvious.
> > > >
> > > > 4) We used volunteer translators mostly associated with our partner
> > > >> Translators Without Borders. One issue we found was that languages
> > > >> in which their are lots of translators such as French, Spanish, and
> > > >> Italian there is often already at least some content on many of the
> > > >> topics in question.
> > > The
> > > >> issue than becomes integration which needs an expert Wikipedia. And
> > > >> for languages in which we have little content there are often few
> > > >> avaliable volunteers.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I used projects below 65k articles as an example, as the chance of
> > > > competing articles are pretty low.
> > > >
> > > > 5) With respect to "paying per word" the problem is this would
> > > > require
> > > >> significant checks and balances to make sure people are taking the
> > > >> work seriously and not simple using Google translate for the 70 or
> > > >> so
> > > languages
> > > >> in which it claims to work. We often had translations undergo a
> > > >> second review and the volunteers at TWB have to pass certain tests
> > > >> to be accepted.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I'n my original email I wrote "verified good translators". It is as
> > > > simple as "Has the editor contributed other articles at the project?"
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 2:26 PM, James Heilman <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> We learned a few things during the medical translation project
> > > >> which started back in 2011:
> > > >>
> > > >> 1) You must start with high quality content and thus all articles
> > > >> are extensively improved before being proposed for translation.
> > > >>
> > > >> 2) A lot of languages want "less" content than is present on EN WP.
> > > >> Thus we moved to just improving and suggesting for translation the
> > > >> leads of the English articles.
> > > >>
> > > >> 3) The "Content Translation" tool developed by the WMF made efforts
> > > >> more efficient than handing around word documents. Would love to
> > > >> see that
> > > tool
> > > >> improved further such as having it support specific lists of
> > > >> articles
> > > that
> > > >> are deemed ready for translation by certain groups. Would also love
> > > >> the tool to have tracking metrics for these types of projects.
> > > >>
> > > >> 4) We used volunteer translators mostly associated with our partner
> > > >> Translators Without Borders. One issue we found was that languages
> > > >> in which their are lots of translators such as French, Spanish, and
> > > >> Italian there is often already at least some content on many of the
> > > >> topics in question.
> > > The
> > > >> issue than becomes integration which needs an expert Wikipedia. And
> > > >> for languages in which we have little content there are often few
> > > >> avaliable volunteers.
> > > >>
> > > >> 5) With respect to "paying per word" the problem is this would
> > > >> require significant checks and balances to make sure people are
> > > >> taking the work seriously and not simple using Google translate for
> > > >> the 70 or so
> > > languages
> > > >> in which it claims to work. We often had translations undergo a
> > > >> second review and the volunteers at TWB have to pass certain tests
> > > >> to be accepted.
> > > >>
> > > >> 6) I hired a coordinator for the translation project for a couple
> > > >> of years.
> > > >> The translators at TWB did not want to become Wikipedians or learn
> > > >> how
> > > to
> > > >> use our systems. The coordinator created account like TransSW001
> > > >> (one
> > > for
> > > >> each volunteer) and preloaded the article to be translated into
> > > >> Content Translation. They than gave the volunteer translator the
> > > >> user name and password to the account.
> > > >>
> > > >> 7) Were are we at now? There are currently just over 1,000 leads of
> > > >> articles that have been improved and are ready for translation.
> > > >> This includes articles on the 440 medications that are on the WHO
> > > >> Essential List. We have worked a bit in some 100 languages. The
> > > >> efforts have resulted in more than 5 million works translated and
> > > >> integrated into different Wikipedias. The coordinator has
> > > >> unfortunately moved on to his real job
> > > of
> > > >> teaching high school students.
> > > >>
> > > >> 8) The project continues but at a slower pace than before. The
> > > Wikipedian
> > > >> and retired orthopedic surgeon Subas Chandra Rout has basically
> > > >> single handedly translated nearly all 1,000 leads into Odia a
> > > >> language spoken
> > > by
> > > >> 40 million people in Eastern India. The amazing thing is that for
> > > >> many
> > > of
> > > >> these topics this is the first and only information online about it.
> > > >> Google
> > > >> translate does not even claim to work in this language. Our
> > > >> partnerships with WMTW and medical school in Taipai continue to
> > > >> translate into
> > > Chinese.
> > > >> There the students translate and than their translations are
> > > >> reviewed by their profs before being posted. They translate in
> > > >> groups using hackpad
> > > to
> > > >> make it more social.
> > > >>
> > > >> I am currently working to re invigorate the project :-) James
> > > >>
> > > >> On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 5:51 AM, John Erling Blad
> > > >> <[hidden email]>
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> > This discussion is going to be fun! =D
> > > >> >
> > > >> > A little more than seventy Wikipedia-projects has more than 65k
> > > >> articles,
> > > >> > the remaining two hundred or so are pretty small.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > What if a base set of articles were opened for paid translators?
> > > >> > There
> > > >> are
> > > >> > several lists of such base sets. We have both the thousand
> > > >> > articles
> > > from
> > > >> > "List of articles every Wikipedia should have"[1] and and the ten
> > > >> thousand
> > > >> > articles from the expanded list[2].
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Lets say verified good translators was paid about $0.01 per word
> > > (about
> > > >> $1
> > > >> > for a 1k-article) for translating one of those articles into
> > > >> > another language, with perhaps a higher pay for contributors in
> > > >> > high-cost countries. The pay would also have to be higher for
> > > >> > languages that
> > > lacks
> > > >> > good translation tools.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > I believe this would be an _enabling_ activity for the
> > > >> > communities, as without a base set of articles it won't be
> > > >> > possible to build a
> > > >> community at
> > > >> > all. By not paying for new articles, and only translating
> > > >> well-referenced
> > > >> > articles, some of the disputes in the communities could be
> avoided.
> > > >> Perhaps
> > > >> > we should also identify good source articles, that would be a
> help.
> > > >> > Translated articles should be above some minimum size, but they
> > > >> > does
> > > not
> > > >> > have to be full translations of the source article.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > A real problem is that our existing lists of good articles other
> > > >> projects
> > > >> > should have is pretty much biased towards Western World, so they
> > > >> > need
> > > a
> > > >> lot
> > > >> > of adjustments. Perhaps such a project would identify our inherit
> > > bias?
> > > >> >
> > > >> > [1]
> > > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_every_
> > > >> > Wikipedia_should_have
> > > >> > [2]
> > > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_every_
> > > >> > Wikipedia_should_have/Expanded
> > > >> > _______________________________________________
> > > >> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to:
> > > >> > [hidden email]
> > > >> > Unsubscribe:
> > > >> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > > ,
> > > >> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscri
> > > >> > be>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> --
> > > >> James Heilman
> > > >> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik i/Wikimedia-l New messages to:
> > > >> [hidden email]
> > > >> Unsubscribe:
> > > >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > >> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe
> > > >> >
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> > ---
> > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> > http://www.avg.com
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

John Erling Blad
In reply to this post by Peter Southwood
Well, what I wrote about was translating the articles on the lists at meta.
In addition the translators themselves chose which one they want to
translate.

On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 8:47 PM, Peter Southwood <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Those who pay get to select what is translated.
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of Jean-Philippe Béland
> Sent: 24 February 2018 16:55
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation
>
> I think the request for such projects should come from the concerned
> language projects, same for the list of articles. If not, in my simple
> opinion, it is a form of coloniasm again.
>
> Jean-Philippe Béland
> Vice President, Wikimedia Canada
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 9:40 AM John Erling Blad <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Should have added that the remaining points are somewhat less
> > interesting in this context. Preloading a set of articles is a bad
> > idea, the translators should be able to chose for themselves. Articles
> > should also be pretty broad, not very narrow technical or medical, ie
> > vertical articles, as the number of editors that can handle those will
> be pretty small.
> >
> > In particular: Do not believe you can turn a teanslator into a new
> editor!
> > You can although turn an existing editor into a translator.
> >
> > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 3:34 PM, John Erling Blad <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > 1) You must start with high quality content and thus all articles
> > > are
> > >> extensively improved before being proposed for translation.
> > >
> > >
> > > Note that to much pressure on "quality" can easily kill the project.
> > >
> > > 3) The "Content Translation" tool developed by the WMF made efforts
> > > more
> > >> efficient than handing around word documents. Would love to see
> > >> that
> > tool
> > >> improved further such as having it support specific lists of
> > >> articles
> > that
> > >> are deemed ready for translation by certain groups. Would also love
> > >> the tool to have tracking metrics for these types of projects.
> > >
> > >
> > > Didn't mention ContentTranslation, but it should be pretty obvious.
> > >
> > > 4) We used volunteer translators mostly associated with our partner
> > >> Translators Without Borders. One issue we found was that languages
> > >> in which their are lots of translators such as French, Spanish, and
> > >> Italian there is often already at least some content on many of the
> > >> topics in question.
> > The
> > >> issue than becomes integration which needs an expert Wikipedia. And
> > >> for languages in which we have little content there are often few
> > >> avaliable volunteers.
> > >
> > >
> > > I used projects below 65k articles as an example, as the chance of
> > > competing articles are pretty low.
> > >
> > > 5) With respect to "paying per word" the problem is this would
> > > require
> > >> significant checks and balances to make sure people are taking the
> > >> work seriously and not simple using Google translate for the 70 or
> > >> so
> > languages
> > >> in which it claims to work. We often had translations undergo a
> > >> second review and the volunteers at TWB have to pass certain tests
> > >> to be accepted.
> > >
> > >
> > > I'n my original email I wrote "verified good translators". It is as
> > > simple as "Has the editor contributed other articles at the project?"
> > >
> > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 2:26 PM, James Heilman <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > >
> > >> We learned a few things during the medical translation project
> > >> which started back in 2011:
> > >>
> > >> 1) You must start with high quality content and thus all articles
> > >> are extensively improved before being proposed for translation.
> > >>
> > >> 2) A lot of languages want "less" content than is present on EN WP.
> > >> Thus we moved to just improving and suggesting for translation the
> > >> leads of the English articles.
> > >>
> > >> 3) The "Content Translation" tool developed by the WMF made efforts
> > >> more efficient than handing around word documents. Would love to
> > >> see that
> > tool
> > >> improved further such as having it support specific lists of
> > >> articles
> > that
> > >> are deemed ready for translation by certain groups. Would also love
> > >> the tool to have tracking metrics for these types of projects.
> > >>
> > >> 4) We used volunteer translators mostly associated with our partner
> > >> Translators Without Borders. One issue we found was that languages
> > >> in which their are lots of translators such as French, Spanish, and
> > >> Italian there is often already at least some content on many of the
> > >> topics in question.
> > The
> > >> issue than becomes integration which needs an expert Wikipedia. And
> > >> for languages in which we have little content there are often few
> > >> avaliable volunteers.
> > >>
> > >> 5) With respect to "paying per word" the problem is this would
> > >> require significant checks and balances to make sure people are
> > >> taking the work seriously and not simple using Google translate for
> > >> the 70 or so
> > languages
> > >> in which it claims to work. We often had translations undergo a
> > >> second review and the volunteers at TWB have to pass certain tests
> > >> to be accepted.
> > >>
> > >> 6) I hired a coordinator for the translation project for a couple
> > >> of years.
> > >> The translators at TWB did not want to become Wikipedians or learn
> > >> how
> > to
> > >> use our systems. The coordinator created account like TransSW001
> > >> (one
> > for
> > >> each volunteer) and preloaded the article to be translated into
> > >> Content Translation. They than gave the volunteer translator the
> > >> user name and password to the account.
> > >>
> > >> 7) Were are we at now? There are currently just over 1,000 leads of
> > >> articles that have been improved and are ready for translation.
> > >> This includes articles on the 440 medications that are on the WHO
> > >> Essential List. We have worked a bit in some 100 languages. The
> > >> efforts have resulted in more than 5 million works translated and
> > >> integrated into different Wikipedias. The coordinator has
> > >> unfortunately moved on to his real job
> > of
> > >> teaching high school students.
> > >>
> > >> 8) The project continues but at a slower pace than before. The
> > Wikipedian
> > >> and retired orthopedic surgeon Subas Chandra Rout has basically
> > >> single handedly translated nearly all 1,000 leads into Odia a
> > >> language spoken
> > by
> > >> 40 million people in Eastern India. The amazing thing is that for
> > >> many
> > of
> > >> these topics this is the first and only information online about it.
> > >> Google
> > >> translate does not even claim to work in this language. Our
> > >> partnerships with WMTW and medical school in Taipai continue to
> > >> translate into
> > Chinese.
> > >> There the students translate and than their translations are
> > >> reviewed by their profs before being posted. They translate in
> > >> groups using hackpad
> > to
> > >> make it more social.
> > >>
> > >> I am currently working to re invigorate the project :-) James
> > >>
> > >> On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 5:51 AM, John Erling Blad
> > >> <[hidden email]>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > This discussion is going to be fun! =D
> > >> >
> > >> > A little more than seventy Wikipedia-projects has more than 65k
> > >> articles,
> > >> > the remaining two hundred or so are pretty small.
> > >> >
> > >> > What if a base set of articles were opened for paid translators?
> > >> > There
> > >> are
> > >> > several lists of such base sets. We have both the thousand
> > >> > articles
> > from
> > >> > "List of articles every Wikipedia should have"[1] and and the ten
> > >> thousand
> > >> > articles from the expanded list[2].
> > >> >
> > >> > Lets say verified good translators was paid about $0.01 per word
> > (about
> > >> $1
> > >> > for a 1k-article) for translating one of those articles into
> > >> > another language, with perhaps a higher pay for contributors in
> > >> > high-cost countries. The pay would also have to be higher for
> > >> > languages that
> > lacks
> > >> > good translation tools.
> > >> >
> > >> > I believe this would be an _enabling_ activity for the
> > >> > communities, as without a base set of articles it won't be
> > >> > possible to build a
> > >> community at
> > >> > all. By not paying for new articles, and only translating
> > >> well-referenced
> > >> > articles, some of the disputes in the communities could be avoided.
> > >> Perhaps
> > >> > we should also identify good source articles, that would be a help.
> > >> > Translated articles should be above some minimum size, but they
> > >> > does
> > not
> > >> > have to be full translations of the source article.
> > >> >
> > >> > A real problem is that our existing lists of good articles other
> > >> projects
> > >> > should have is pretty much biased towards Western World, so they
> > >> > need
> > a
> > >> lot
> > >> > of adjustments. Perhaps such a project would identify our inherit
> > bias?
> > >> >
> > >> > [1]
> > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_every_
> > >> > Wikipedia_should_have
> > >> > [2]
> > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_every_
> > >> > Wikipedia_should_have/Expanded
> > >> > _______________________________________________
> > >> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to:
> > >> > [hidden email]
> > >> > Unsubscribe:
> > >> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > ,
> > >> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscri
> > >> > be>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> James Heilman
> > >> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik i/Wikimedia-l New messages to:
> > >> [hidden email]
> > >> Unsubscribe:
> > >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > >> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
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> ---
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>
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

John Erling Blad
In reply to this post by Michael Snow-5
The source article should meet certain standards, but do not fall in the
trap where the translated articles must themselves be better than some
imagined standard. That would lead to a defunc process.

On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 8:41 PM, Michael Snow <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> I think the experience I've had with translating matches up well with the
> conclusions James has outlined. Even though I'm more likely to translate
> content into English rather than out of English, the principles still hold.
>
> Trying to produce a translation without quality content in the original
> article is a frustrating and pointless exercise for the translator. Unless
> the original meets certain standards, it would be better and easier to
> write the article from scratch in the "destination" language and translate
> it back to the "source" language.
>
> Assuming we have a good article in the original language, I definitely
> encourage translators to use editorial judgment in what they carry over.
> Focusing on the lead section is one possible approach. In general, because
> we are trying to translate information and not literature, we should have
> different priorities. It is more important that the translation maintain
> fidelity to the facts than to the language and structure of the article.
> Sometimes it makes sense to pass over certain details, even a
> beginning-to-end translation might come out a bit condensed. As one reason
> for this, making some details accessible to the cultural audience in the
> new language can at times require a fair amount of elaboration, more than
> may be ideal for the context under discussion. The best approach to use is
> one of adaptation as much as translation.
>
> I don't have strong feelings about whether a paid model will work, or work
> better than purely volunteer activity, but I would be open to seeing a
> trial. The essential thing is that we find translators who can understand
> and apply standards of quality in their work, much like we would expect if
> they were editors writing entirely new articles.
>
> --Michael Snow
>
>
> On 2/24/2018 5:26 AM, James Heilman wrote:
>
>> We learned a few things during the medical translation project which
>> started back in 2011:
>>
>> 1) You must start with high quality content and thus all articles are
>> extensively improved before being proposed for translation.
>>
>> 2) A lot of languages want "less" content than is present on EN WP. Thus
>> we
>> moved to just improving and suggesting for translation the leads of the
>> English articles.
>>
>> 3) The "Content Translation" tool developed by the WMF made efforts more
>> efficient than handing around word documents. Would love to see that tool
>> improved further such as having it support specific lists of articles that
>> are deemed ready for translation by certain groups. Would also love the
>> tool to have tracking metrics for these types of projects.
>>
>> 4) We used volunteer translators mostly associated with our partner
>> Translators Without Borders. One issue we found was that languages in
>> which
>> their are lots of translators such as French, Spanish, and Italian there
>> is
>> often already at least some content on many of the topics in question. The
>> issue than becomes integration which needs an expert Wikipedia. And for
>> languages in which we have little content there are often few avaliable
>> volunteers.
>>
>> 5) With respect to "paying per word" the problem is this would require
>> significant checks and balances to make sure people are taking the work
>> seriously and not simple using Google translate for the 70 or so languages
>> in which it claims to work. We often had translations undergo a second
>> review and the volunteers at TWB have to pass certain tests to be
>> accepted.
>>
>> 6) I hired a coordinator for the translation project for a couple of
>> years.
>> The translators at TWB did not want to become Wikipedians or learn how to
>> use our systems. The coordinator created account like TransSW001 (one for
>> each volunteer) and preloaded the article to be translated into Content
>> Translation. They than gave the volunteer translator the user name and
>> password to the account.
>>
>> 7) Were are we at now? There are currently just over 1,000 leads of
>> articles that have been improved and are ready for translation. This
>> includes articles on the 440 medications that are on the WHO Essential
>> List. We have worked a bit in some 100 languages. The efforts have
>> resulted
>> in more than 5 million works translated and integrated into different
>> Wikipedias. The coordinator has unfortunately moved on to his real job of
>> teaching high school students.
>>
>> 8) The project continues but at a slower pace than before. The Wikipedian
>> and retired orthopedic surgeon Subas Chandra Rout has basically single
>> handedly translated nearly all 1,000 leads into Odia a language spoken by
>> 40 million people in Eastern India. The amazing thing is that for many of
>> these topics this is the first and only information online about it.
>> Google
>> translate does not even claim to work in this language. Our partnerships
>> with WMTW and medical school in Taipai continue to translate into Chinese.
>> There the students translate and than their translations are reviewed by
>> their profs before being posted. They translate in groups using hackpad to
>> make it more social.
>>
>> I am currently working to re invigorate the project :-)
>> James
>>
>> On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 5:51 AM, John Erling Blad <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> This discussion is going to be fun! =D
>>>
>>> A little more than seventy Wikipedia-projects has more than 65k articles,
>>> the remaining two hundred or so are pretty small.
>>>
>>> What if a base set of articles were opened for paid translators? There
>>> are
>>> several lists of such base sets. We have both the thousand articles from
>>> "List of articles every Wikipedia should have"[1] and and the ten
>>> thousand
>>> articles from the expanded list[2].
>>>
>>> Lets say verified good translators was paid about $0.01 per word (about
>>> $1
>>> for a 1k-article) for translating one of those articles into another
>>> language, with perhaps a higher pay for contributors in high-cost
>>> countries. The pay would also have to be higher for languages that lacks
>>> good translation tools.
>>>
>>> I believe this would be an _enabling_ activity for the communities, as
>>> without a base set of articles it won't be possible to build a community
>>> at
>>> all. By not paying for new articles, and only translating well-referenced
>>> articles, some of the disputes in the communities could be avoided.
>>> Perhaps
>>> we should also identify good source articles, that would be a help.
>>> Translated articles should be above some minimum size, but they does not
>>> have to be full translations of the source article.
>>>
>>> A real problem is that our existing lists of good articles other projects
>>> should have is pretty much biased towards Western World, so they need a
>>> lot
>>> of adjustments. Perhaps such a project would identify our inherit bias?
>>>
>>> [1]
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_every_
>>> Wikipedia_should_have
>>> [2]
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_every_
>>> Wikipedia_should_have/Expanded
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
>>> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
>>> wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>> New messages to: [hidden email]
>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
> i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
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>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

John Erling Blad
In reply to this post by Gnangarra
This is not the same, and is more like the present grant system.

On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 8:05 PM, Gnangarra <[hidden email]> wrote:

> this would be a good practical exercise to develop for WiR / WikiEd
> programs in universities where they can engage with International Students
> and local students studying additional languages as means of learning the
> written nuances of the individual languages.  Any funding would be better
> utilised in enabling such programs where the flow on impact is more
> likely{fact} to be lasting.  Though I can see value in using a gift/reward
> system for technically disadvantaged communities like the case presented
> about Swahili .    The focus would need to be on basic health, hygiene,
> biology, science topics rather than more social or political topics.
>
> On 25 February 2018 at 01:08, Vi to <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > I'll reply to the most recent email just for laziness.
> >
> > I'm doubtful for a series of reasons, most of were already expressed in a
> > better way by others:
> > *a remuneration in terms of quantity will weaken the quality of
> > translations unless there's a strong mechanism of quality verification
> > requiring a quantity of resources comparable to translations themselves;
> > *articles are the result of a long process which reflects cultural
> identity
> > of different communities, I'm not confident with transferring them to a
> > different "weaker" cultures. My usage of "weaker" adjective only focuses
> > about the strength of a cultural presence on the Internet;
> > *articles to be translated are at high risk of reflecting the cultural
> > identity (and biases) of the Western culture;
> > *finally I think paid translators would hardly turn into stable
> > Wikipedians.
> >
> > IMHO some paid editing may be better exploited in order to digitalise
> texts
> > of unrepresented cultures (wikisource) or preserving their vocabularies
> > (wiktionary).
> >
> > Also those languages which are secondary for all their speakers should be
> > dealt with in a different fashion. I, for one, am a native speaker of
> > specific variant of Sicilian, Sicilian is a secondary language to any of
> > its speakers. Honestly, I'd find pointless to read the biography of
> > Leonardo da Vinci in Sicilian while I can find thousands of books about
> him
> > in Italian. Also I find this kind of translation creates a fake
> "literary"
> > language totally detached from reality: there's no "encaustic painting"
> in
> > Sicilian, still a Sicilian article about Leonardo will invent one.
> >
> > As a general principle we should always collect, rather than create,
> > knowledge.
> >
> > Vito
> >
> > 2018-02-24 16:30 GMT+01:00 John Erling Blad <[hidden email]>:
> >
> > > My reply can be read as a bit more harsh than intended, it was merely a
> > > statement about my present experience about translators in general.
> > >
> > > The problem with lack of contributors (and translators) in a
> specialized
> > > area is that there is a small community, and within this community some
> > > kind of selection is made. Each time a selection is repeated the
> > remaining
> > > group shrinks. Specialize the selection sufficiently many times and
> there
> > > will be no contributors (or translators) left. It is simply a game of
> > > probabilities. Thus, to make such a project work it must have a
> > > sufficiently broad scope for the articles. Articles about public health
> > > services will probably work even for a pretty small language group, but
> > > specialized medical articles might create a problem. But then you find
> > > a retired
> > > orthopedic surgeon like Subas Chandra Rout…
> > >
> > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 4:04 PM, James Heilman <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I agree with John that it is very difficult to turn a translator
> into a
> > > new
> > > > editor. I also agree with Jean-Philippe that it is key to have
> > > involvement
> > > > of the local projects and preferable if they lead the efforts. Of the
> > > > languages we worked in only one explicitly requested not to be
> > involved /
> > > > have translations from TWB.
> > > >
> > > > James
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 7:59 AM, John Erling Blad <[hidden email]>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > You can turn it around; give added credits for translations from
> > small
> > > > > language projects and into the larger ones, that is a lot more
> > > > interesting
> > > > > than strictly translating from the larger language projects.
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 3:55 PM, Jean-Philippe Béland <
> > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > I think the request for such projects should come from the
> > concerned
> > > > > > language projects, same for the list of articles. If not, in my
> > > simple
> > > > > > opinion, it is a form of coloniasm again.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Jean-Philippe Béland
> > > > > > Vice President, Wikimedia Canada
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 9:40 AM John Erling Blad <
> [hidden email]
> > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Should have added that the remaining points are somewhat less
> > > > > interesting
> > > > > > > in this context. Preloading a set of articles is a bad idea,
> the
> > > > > > > translators should be able to chose for themselves. Articles
> > should
> > > > > also
> > > > > > be
> > > > > > > pretty broad, not very narrow technical or medical, ie vertical
> > > > > articles,
> > > > > > > as the number of editors that can handle those will be pretty
> > > small.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In particular: Do not believe you can turn a teanslator into a
> > new
> > > > > > editor!
> > > > > > > You can although turn an existing editor into a translator.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 3:34 PM, John Erling Blad <
> > > [hidden email]>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 1) You must start with high quality content and thus all
> > articles
> > > > are
> > > > > > > >> extensively improved before being proposed for translation.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Note that to much pressure on "quality" can easily kill the
> > > > project.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 3) The "Content Translation" tool developed by the WMF made
> > > efforts
> > > > > > more
> > > > > > > >> efficient than handing around word documents. Would love to
> > see
> > > > that
> > > > > > > tool
> > > > > > > >> improved further such as having it support specific lists of
> > > > > articles
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > >> are deemed ready for translation by certain groups. Would
> also
> > > > love
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > >> tool to have tracking metrics for these types of projects.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Didn't mention ContentTranslation, but it should be pretty
> > > obvious.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 4) We used volunteer translators mostly associated with our
> > > partner
> > > > > > > >> Translators Without Borders. One issue we found was that
> > > languages
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > >> which
> > > > > > > >> their are lots of translators such as French, Spanish, and
> > > Italian
> > > > > > there
> > > > > > > >> is
> > > > > > > >> often already at least some content on many of the topics in
> > > > > question.
> > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > >> issue than becomes integration which needs an expert
> > Wikipedia.
> > > > And
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > >> languages in which we have little content there are often
> few
> > > > > > avaliable
> > > > > > > >> volunteers.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I used projects below 65k articles as an example, as the
> chance
> > > of
> > > > > > > > competing articles are pretty low.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 5) With respect to "paying per word" the problem is this
> would
> > > > > require
> > > > > > > >> significant checks and balances to make sure people are
> taking
> > > the
> > > > > > work
> > > > > > > >> seriously and not simple using Google translate for the 70
> or
> > so
> > > > > > > languages
> > > > > > > >> in which it claims to work. We often had translations
> undergo
> > a
> > > > > second
> > > > > > > >> review and the volunteers at TWB have to pass certain tests
> to
> > > be
> > > > > > > >> accepted.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I'n my original email I wrote "verified good translators". It
> > is
> > > as
> > > > > > > > simple as "Has the editor contributed other articles at the
> > > > project?"
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 2:26 PM, James Heilman <
> > [hidden email]
> > > >
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >> We learned a few things during the medical translation
> project
> > > > which
> > > > > > > >> started back in 2011:
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> 1) You must start with high quality content and thus all
> > > articles
> > > > > are
> > > > > > > >> extensively improved before being proposed for translation.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> 2) A lot of languages want "less" content than is present on
> > EN
> > > > WP.
> > > > > > Thus
> > > > > > > >> we
> > > > > > > >> moved to just improving and suggesting for translation the
> > leads
> > > > of
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > >> English articles.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> 3) The "Content Translation" tool developed by the WMF made
> > > > efforts
> > > > > > more
> > > > > > > >> efficient than handing around word documents. Would love to
> > see
> > > > that
> > > > > > > tool
> > > > > > > >> improved further such as having it support specific lists of
> > > > > articles
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > >> are deemed ready for translation by certain groups. Would
> also
> > > > love
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > >> tool to have tracking metrics for these types of projects.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> 4) We used volunteer translators mostly associated with our
> > > > partner
> > > > > > > >> Translators Without Borders. One issue we found was that
> > > languages
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > >> which
> > > > > > > >> their are lots of translators such as French, Spanish, and
> > > Italian
> > > > > > there
> > > > > > > >> is
> > > > > > > >> often already at least some content on many of the topics in
> > > > > question.
> > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > >> issue than becomes integration which needs an expert
> > Wikipedia.
> > > > And
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > >> languages in which we have little content there are often
> few
> > > > > > avaliable
> > > > > > > >> volunteers.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> 5) With respect to "paying per word" the problem is this
> would
> > > > > require
> > > > > > > >> significant checks and balances to make sure people are
> taking
> > > the
> > > > > > work
> > > > > > > >> seriously and not simple using Google translate for the 70
> or
> > so
> > > > > > > languages
> > > > > > > >> in which it claims to work. We often had translations
> undergo
> > a
> > > > > second
> > > > > > > >> review and the volunteers at TWB have to pass certain tests
> to
> > > be
> > > > > > > >> accepted.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> 6) I hired a coordinator for the translation project for a
> > > couple
> > > > of
> > > > > > > >> years.
> > > > > > > >> The translators at TWB did not want to become Wikipedians or
> > > learn
> > > > > how
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > >> use our systems. The coordinator created account like
> > TransSW001
> > > > > (one
> > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > >> each volunteer) and preloaded the article to be translated
> > into
> > > > > > Content
> > > > > > > >> Translation. They than gave the volunteer translator the
> user
> > > name
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > >> password to the account.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> 7) Were are we at now? There are currently just over 1,000
> > leads
> > > > of
> > > > > > > >> articles that have been improved and are ready for
> > translation.
> > > > This
> > > > > > > >> includes articles on the 440 medications that are on the WHO
> > > > > Essential
> > > > > > > >> List. We have worked a bit in some 100 languages. The
> efforts
> > > have
> > > > > > > >> resulted
> > > > > > > >> in more than 5 million works translated and integrated into
> > > > > different
> > > > > > > >> Wikipedias. The coordinator has unfortunately moved on to
> his
> > > real
> > > > > job
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > >> teaching high school students.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> 8) The project continues but at a slower pace than before.
> The
> > > > > > > Wikipedian
> > > > > > > >> and retired orthopedic surgeon Subas Chandra Rout has
> > basically
> > > > > single
> > > > > > > >> handedly translated nearly all 1,000 leads into Odia a
> > language
> > > > > spoken
> > > > > > > by
> > > > > > > >> 40 million people in Eastern India. The amazing thing is
> that
> > > for
> > > > > many
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > >> these topics this is the first and only information online
> > about
> > > > it.
> > > > > > > >> Google
> > > > > > > >> translate does not even claim to work in this language. Our
> > > > > > partnerships
> > > > > > > >> with WMTW and medical school in Taipai continue to translate
> > > into
> > > > > > > Chinese.
> > > > > > > >> There the students translate and than their translations are
> > > > > reviewed
> > > > > > by
> > > > > > > >> their profs before being posted. They translate in groups
> > using
> > > > > > hackpad
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > >> make it more social.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> I am currently working to re invigorate the project :-)
> > > > > > > >> James
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 5:51 AM, John Erling Blad <
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > >> wrote:
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> > This discussion is going to be fun! =D
> > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > >> > A little more than seventy Wikipedia-projects has more
> than
> > > 65k
> > > > > > > >> articles,
> > > > > > > >> > the remaining two hundred or so are pretty small.
> > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > >> > What if a base set of articles were opened for paid
> > > translators?
> > > > > > There
> > > > > > > >> are
> > > > > > > >> > several lists of such base sets. We have both the thousand
> > > > > articles
> > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > >> > "List of articles every Wikipedia should have"[1] and and
> > the
> > > > ten
> > > > > > > >> thousand
> > > > > > > >> > articles from the expanded list[2].
> > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > >> > Lets say verified good translators was paid about $0.01
> per
> > > word
> > > > > > > (about
> > > > > > > >> $1
> > > > > > > >> > for a 1k-article) for translating one of those articles
> into
> > > > > another
> > > > > > > >> > language, with perhaps a higher pay for contributors in
> > > > high-cost
> > > > > > > >> > countries. The pay would also have to be higher for
> > languages
> > > > that
> > > > > > > lacks
> > > > > > > >> > good translation tools.
> > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > >> > I believe this would be an _enabling_ activity for the
> > > > > communities,
> > > > > > as
> > > > > > > >> > without a base set of articles it won't be possible to
> > build a
> > > > > > > >> community at
> > > > > > > >> > all. By not paying for new articles, and only translating
> > > > > > > >> well-referenced
> > > > > > > >> > articles, some of the disputes in the communities could be
> > > > > avoided.
> > > > > > > >> Perhaps
> > > > > > > >> > we should also identify good source articles, that would
> be
> > a
> > > > > help.
> > > > > > > >> > Translated articles should be above some minimum size, but
> > > they
> > > > > does
> > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > >> > have to be full translations of the source article.
> > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > >> > A real problem is that our existing lists of good articles
> > > other
> > > > > > > >> projects
> > > > > > > >> > should have is pretty much biased towards Western World,
> so
> > > they
> > > > > > need
> > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > >> lot
> > > > > > > >> > of adjustments. Perhaps such a project would identify our
> > > > inherit
> > > > > > > bias?
> > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > >> > [1]
> > > > > > > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_every_
> > > > > > > >> > Wikipedia_should_have
> > > > > > > >> > [2]
> > > > > > > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_every_
> > > > > > > >> > Wikipedia_should_have/Expanded
> > > > > > > >> > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > >> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > > > >> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > > > >> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > > >> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > > > >> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > > mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > > > > > > ,
> > > > > > > >> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=
> > > > > > unsubscribe>
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> --
> > > > > > > >> James Heilman
> > > > > > > >> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> > > > > > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
> > > > > > > >> i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
> > > > > > > >> i/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > > >> New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > > > >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > > > > > ,
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> > > > > unsubscribe>
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > James Heilman
> > > > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
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> Reflections on Environmental Responsibility after Roe 8*, UWAP, 2017.
> Order
> here
> <https://uwap.uwa.edu.au/products/never-again-
> reflections-on-environmental-responsibility-after-roe-8>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

John Erling Blad
In reply to this post by Vi to
Seems like this is mostly about cultural ownership and appropriation. Not
sure if it is possible to agree on this.

On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 6:08 PM, Vi to <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I'll reply to the most recent email just for laziness.
>
> I'm doubtful for a series of reasons, most of were already expressed in a
> better way by others:
> *a remuneration in terms of quantity will weaken the quality of
> translations unless there's a strong mechanism of quality verification
> requiring a quantity of resources comparable to translations themselves;
> *articles are the result of a long process which reflects cultural identity
> of different communities, I'm not confident with transferring them to a
> different "weaker" cultures. My usage of "weaker" adjective only focuses
> about the strength of a cultural presence on the Internet;
> *articles to be translated are at high risk of reflecting the cultural
> identity (and biases) of the Western culture;
> *finally I think paid translators would hardly turn into stable
> Wikipedians.
>
> IMHO some paid editing may be better exploited in order to digitalise texts
> of unrepresented cultures (wikisource) or preserving their vocabularies
> (wiktionary).
>
> Also those languages which are secondary for all their speakers should be
> dealt with in a different fashion. I, for one, am a native speaker of
> specific variant of Sicilian, Sicilian is a secondary language to any of
> its speakers. Honestly, I'd find pointless to read the biography of
> Leonardo da Vinci in Sicilian while I can find thousands of books about him
> in Italian. Also I find this kind of translation creates a fake "literary"
> language totally detached from reality: there's no "encaustic painting" in
> Sicilian, still a Sicilian article about Leonardo will invent one.
>
> As a general principle we should always collect, rather than create,
> knowledge.
>
> Vito
>
> 2018-02-24 16:30 GMT+01:00 John Erling Blad <[hidden email]>:
>
> > My reply can be read as a bit more harsh than intended, it was merely a
> > statement about my present experience about translators in general.
> >
> > The problem with lack of contributors (and translators) in a specialized
> > area is that there is a small community, and within this community some
> > kind of selection is made. Each time a selection is repeated the
> remaining
> > group shrinks. Specialize the selection sufficiently many times and there
> > will be no contributors (or translators) left. It is simply a game of
> > probabilities. Thus, to make such a project work it must have a
> > sufficiently broad scope for the articles. Articles about public health
> > services will probably work even for a pretty small language group, but
> > specialized medical articles might create a problem. But then you find
> > a retired
> > orthopedic surgeon like Subas Chandra Rout…
> >
> > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 4:04 PM, James Heilman <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > I agree with John that it is very difficult to turn a translator into a
> > new
> > > editor. I also agree with Jean-Philippe that it is key to have
> > involvement
> > > of the local projects and preferable if they lead the efforts. Of the
> > > languages we worked in only one explicitly requested not to be
> involved /
> > > have translations from TWB.
> > >
> > > James
> > >
> > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 7:59 AM, John Erling Blad <[hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > You can turn it around; give added credits for translations from
> small
> > > > language projects and into the larger ones, that is a lot more
> > > interesting
> > > > than strictly translating from the larger language projects.
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 3:55 PM, Jean-Philippe Béland <
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I think the request for such projects should come from the
> concerned
> > > > > language projects, same for the list of articles. If not, in my
> > simple
> > > > > opinion, it is a form of coloniasm again.
> > > > >
> > > > > Jean-Philippe Béland
> > > > > Vice President, Wikimedia Canada
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 9:40 AM John Erling Blad <[hidden email]
> >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Should have added that the remaining points are somewhat less
> > > > interesting
> > > > > > in this context. Preloading a set of articles is a bad idea, the
> > > > > > translators should be able to chose for themselves. Articles
> should
> > > > also
> > > > > be
> > > > > > pretty broad, not very narrow technical or medical, ie vertical
> > > > articles,
> > > > > > as the number of editors that can handle those will be pretty
> > small.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In particular: Do not believe you can turn a teanslator into a
> new
> > > > > editor!
> > > > > > You can although turn an existing editor into a translator.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 3:34 PM, John Erling Blad <
> > [hidden email]>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > 1) You must start with high quality content and thus all
> articles
> > > are
> > > > > > >> extensively improved before being proposed for translation.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Note that to much pressure on "quality" can easily kill the
> > > project.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 3) The "Content Translation" tool developed by the WMF made
> > efforts
> > > > > more
> > > > > > >> efficient than handing around word documents. Would love to
> see
> > > that
> > > > > > tool
> > > > > > >> improved further such as having it support specific lists of
> > > > articles
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > >> are deemed ready for translation by certain groups. Would also
> > > love
> > > > > the
> > > > > > >> tool to have tracking metrics for these types of projects.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Didn't mention ContentTranslation, but it should be pretty
> > obvious.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 4) We used volunteer translators mostly associated with our
> > partner
> > > > > > >> Translators Without Borders. One issue we found was that
> > languages
> > > > in
> > > > > > >> which
> > > > > > >> their are lots of translators such as French, Spanish, and
> > Italian
> > > > > there
> > > > > > >> is
> > > > > > >> often already at least some content on many of the topics in
> > > > question.
> > > > > > The
> > > > > > >> issue than becomes integration which needs an expert
> Wikipedia.
> > > And
> > > > > for
> > > > > > >> languages in which we have little content there are often few
> > > > > avaliable
> > > > > > >> volunteers.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I used projects below 65k articles as an example, as the chance
> > of
> > > > > > > competing articles are pretty low.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 5) With respect to "paying per word" the problem is this would
> > > > require
> > > > > > >> significant checks and balances to make sure people are taking
> > the
> > > > > work
> > > > > > >> seriously and not simple using Google translate for the 70 or
> so
> > > > > > languages
> > > > > > >> in which it claims to work. We often had translations undergo
> a
> > > > second
> > > > > > >> review and the volunteers at TWB have to pass certain tests to
> > be
> > > > > > >> accepted.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'n my original email I wrote "verified good translators". It
> is
> > as
> > > > > > > simple as "Has the editor contributed other articles at the
> > > project?"
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 2:26 PM, James Heilman <
> [hidden email]
> > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >> We learned a few things during the medical translation project
> > > which
> > > > > > >> started back in 2011:
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> 1) You must start with high quality content and thus all
> > articles
> > > > are
> > > > > > >> extensively improved before being proposed for translation.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> 2) A lot of languages want "less" content than is present on
> EN
> > > WP.
> > > > > Thus
> > > > > > >> we
> > > > > > >> moved to just improving and suggesting for translation the
> leads
> > > of
> > > > > the
> > > > > > >> English articles.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> 3) The "Content Translation" tool developed by the WMF made
> > > efforts
> > > > > more
> > > > > > >> efficient than handing around word documents. Would love to
> see
> > > that
> > > > > > tool
> > > > > > >> improved further such as having it support specific lists of
> > > > articles
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > >> are deemed ready for translation by certain groups. Would also
> > > love
> > > > > the
> > > > > > >> tool to have tracking metrics for these types of projects.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> 4) We used volunteer translators mostly associated with our
> > > partner
> > > > > > >> Translators Without Borders. One issue we found was that
> > languages
> > > > in
> > > > > > >> which
> > > > > > >> their are lots of translators such as French, Spanish, and
> > Italian
> > > > > there
> > > > > > >> is
> > > > > > >> often already at least some content on many of the topics in
> > > > question.
> > > > > > The
> > > > > > >> issue than becomes integration which needs an expert
> Wikipedia.
> > > And
> > > > > for
> > > > > > >> languages in which we have little content there are often few
> > > > > avaliable
> > > > > > >> volunteers.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> 5) With respect to "paying per word" the problem is this would
> > > > require
> > > > > > >> significant checks and balances to make sure people are taking
> > the
> > > > > work
> > > > > > >> seriously and not simple using Google translate for the 70 or
> so
> > > > > > languages
> > > > > > >> in which it claims to work. We often had translations undergo
> a
> > > > second
> > > > > > >> review and the volunteers at TWB have to pass certain tests to
> > be
> > > > > > >> accepted.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> 6) I hired a coordinator for the translation project for a
> > couple
> > > of
> > > > > > >> years.
> > > > > > >> The translators at TWB did not want to become Wikipedians or
> > learn
> > > > how
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > >> use our systems. The coordinator created account like
> TransSW001
> > > > (one
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > >> each volunteer) and preloaded the article to be translated
> into
> > > > > Content
> > > > > > >> Translation. They than gave the volunteer translator the user
> > name
> > > > and
> > > > > > >> password to the account.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> 7) Were are we at now? There are currently just over 1,000
> leads
> > > of
> > > > > > >> articles that have been improved and are ready for
> translation.
> > > This
> > > > > > >> includes articles on the 440 medications that are on the WHO
> > > > Essential
> > > > > > >> List. We have worked a bit in some 100 languages. The efforts
> > have
> > > > > > >> resulted
> > > > > > >> in more than 5 million works translated and integrated into
> > > > different
> > > > > > >> Wikipedias. The coordinator has unfortunately moved on to his
> > real
> > > > job
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > >> teaching high school students.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> 8) The project continues but at a slower pace than before. The
> > > > > > Wikipedian
> > > > > > >> and retired orthopedic surgeon Subas Chandra Rout has
> basically
> > > > single
> > > > > > >> handedly translated nearly all 1,000 leads into Odia a
> language
> > > > spoken
> > > > > > by
> > > > > > >> 40 million people in Eastern India. The amazing thing is that
> > for
> > > > many
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > >> these topics this is the first and only information online
> about
> > > it.
> > > > > > >> Google
> > > > > > >> translate does not even claim to work in this language. Our
> > > > > partnerships
> > > > > > >> with WMTW and medical school in Taipai continue to translate
> > into
> > > > > > Chinese.
> > > > > > >> There the students translate and than their translations are
> > > > reviewed
> > > > > by
> > > > > > >> their profs before being posted. They translate in groups
> using
> > > > > hackpad
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > >> make it more social.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> I am currently working to re invigorate the project :-)
> > > > > > >> James
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 5:51 AM, John Erling Blad <
> > > [hidden email]
> > > > >
> > > > > > >> wrote:
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> > This discussion is going to be fun! =D
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > A little more than seventy Wikipedia-projects has more than
> > 65k
> > > > > > >> articles,
> > > > > > >> > the remaining two hundred or so are pretty small.
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > What if a base set of articles were opened for paid
> > translators?
> > > > > There
> > > > > > >> are
> > > > > > >> > several lists of such base sets. We have both the thousand
> > > > articles
> > > > > > from
> > > > > > >> > "List of articles every Wikipedia should have"[1] and and
> the
> > > ten
> > > > > > >> thousand
> > > > > > >> > articles from the expanded list[2].
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > Lets say verified good translators was paid about $0.01 per
> > word
> > > > > > (about
> > > > > > >> $1
> > > > > > >> > for a 1k-article) for translating one of those articles into
> > > > another
> > > > > > >> > language, with perhaps a higher pay for contributors in
> > > high-cost
> > > > > > >> > countries. The pay would also have to be higher for
> languages
> > > that
> > > > > > lacks
> > > > > > >> > good translation tools.
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > I believe this would be an _enabling_ activity for the
> > > > communities,
> > > > > as
> > > > > > >> > without a base set of articles it won't be possible to
> build a
> > > > > > >> community at
> > > > > > >> > all. By not paying for new articles, and only translating
> > > > > > >> well-referenced
> > > > > > >> > articles, some of the disputes in the communities could be
> > > > avoided.
> > > > > > >> Perhaps
> > > > > > >> > we should also identify good source articles, that would be
> a
> > > > help.
> > > > > > >> > Translated articles should be above some minimum size, but
> > they
> > > > does
> > > > > > not
> > > > > > >> > have to be full translations of the source article.
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > A real problem is that our existing lists of good articles
> > other
> > > > > > >> projects
> > > > > > >> > should have is pretty much biased towards Western World, so
> > they
> > > > > need
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > >> lot
> > > > > > >> > of adjustments. Perhaps such a project would identify our
> > > inherit
> > > > > > bias?
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > [1]
> > > > > > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_every_
> > > > > > >> > Wikipedia_should_have
> > > > > > >> > [2]
> > > > > > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_every_
> > > > > > >> > Wikipedia_should_have/Expanded
> > > > > > >> > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > >> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > > >> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > > >> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > >> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > > >> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > > > > > ,
> > > > > > >> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=
> > > > > unsubscribe>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> --
> > > > > > >> James Heilman
> > > > > > >> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> > > > > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > > > > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
> > > > > > >> i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
> > > > > > >> i/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > >> New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > > >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
> > > > mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > > > > ,
> > > > > > >> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=
> > > > unsubscribe>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
> > > mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=
> > unsubscribe>
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/
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> > > > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
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> > mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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> unsubscribe>
> > > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
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> mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > James Heilman
> > > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
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> > >
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> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
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> > New messages to: [hidden email]
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> _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

Info WorldUniversity
In reply to this post by John Erling Blad
John and All,

As a possible complement to this discussion, CC-4 MIT
OpenCourseWare-centric World University and School seeks to matriculate
students in all ~200 countries' official/main languages (
https://wiki.worlduniversityandschool.org/wiki/Languages), and may
compensate them for work in a number of ways, including translation and
developing machine translation (and in all 7,099 living languages
eventually).

World Univ. and Sch. donated ourselves to Wikidata in 2015 for
co-development, and got a new WUaS Miraheze Mediawiki last year in these
regards too.

Cheers, Scott
- https://wiki.worlduniversityandschool.org/wiki/Nation_States
(each to become a major online University for free CC-4 OCW degrees)



On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 1:49 PM, John Erling Blad <[hidden email]> wrote:

> It is a long time since everyone on these projects were solely volunteers.
> :)
>
> On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 9:40 PM, Todd Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Yes, and then there's always the question. If he's getting paid, why
> aren't
> > I? Why is he getting paid per word of article translated? Why am I not
> > getting paid per spamvertisement deleted or vandal blocked? Why am I not
> > getting paid for closing discussions that it takes hours of reading input
> > and considering all sides and getting rocks thrown at me no matter what I
> > do? Is that not valuable to the project as well?
> >
> > If you want to pay anyone, you better start paying me. I'm okay with the
> > idea of being a volunteer as long as everyone is a volunteer. But if you
> > start paying some people and not me, we're going to have a problem.
> >
> > Todd
> >
> > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 12:47 PM, Peter Southwood <
> > [hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > Those who pay get to select what is translated.
> > > Cheers,
> > > Peter
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> > > Behalf Of Jean-Philippe Béland
> > > Sent: 24 February 2018 16:55
> > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation
> > >
> > > I think the request for such projects should come from the concerned
> > > language projects, same for the list of articles. If not, in my simple
> > > opinion, it is a form of coloniasm again.
> > >
> > > Jean-Philippe Béland
> > > Vice President, Wikimedia Canada
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 9:40 AM John Erling Blad <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Should have added that the remaining points are somewhat less
> > > > interesting in this context. Preloading a set of articles is a bad
> > > > idea, the translators should be able to chose for themselves.
> Articles
> > > > should also be pretty broad, not very narrow technical or medical, ie
> > > > vertical articles, as the number of editors that can handle those
> will
> > > be pretty small.
> > > >
> > > > In particular: Do not believe you can turn a teanslator into a new
> > > editor!
> > > > You can although turn an existing editor into a translator.
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 3:34 PM, John Erling Blad <[hidden email]>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > 1) You must start with high quality content and thus all articles
> > > > > are
> > > > >> extensively improved before being proposed for translation.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Note that to much pressure on "quality" can easily kill the
> project.
> > > > >
> > > > > 3) The "Content Translation" tool developed by the WMF made efforts
> > > > > more
> > > > >> efficient than handing around word documents. Would love to see
> > > > >> that
> > > > tool
> > > > >> improved further such as having it support specific lists of
> > > > >> articles
> > > > that
> > > > >> are deemed ready for translation by certain groups. Would also
> love
> > > > >> the tool to have tracking metrics for these types of projects.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Didn't mention ContentTranslation, but it should be pretty obvious.
> > > > >
> > > > > 4) We used volunteer translators mostly associated with our partner
> > > > >> Translators Without Borders. One issue we found was that languages
> > > > >> in which their are lots of translators such as French, Spanish,
> and
> > > > >> Italian there is often already at least some content on many of
> the
> > > > >> topics in question.
> > > > The
> > > > >> issue than becomes integration which needs an expert Wikipedia.
> And
> > > > >> for languages in which we have little content there are often few
> > > > >> avaliable volunteers.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I used projects below 65k articles as an example, as the chance of
> > > > > competing articles are pretty low.
> > > > >
> > > > > 5) With respect to "paying per word" the problem is this would
> > > > > require
> > > > >> significant checks and balances to make sure people are taking the
> > > > >> work seriously and not simple using Google translate for the 70 or
> > > > >> so
> > > > languages
> > > > >> in which it claims to work. We often had translations undergo a
> > > > >> second review and the volunteers at TWB have to pass certain tests
> > > > >> to be accepted.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I'n my original email I wrote "verified good translators". It is as
> > > > > simple as "Has the editor contributed other articles at the
> project?"
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 2:26 PM, James Heilman <[hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> We learned a few things during the medical translation project
> > > > >> which started back in 2011:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> 1) You must start with high quality content and thus all articles
> > > > >> are extensively improved before being proposed for translation.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> 2) A lot of languages want "less" content than is present on EN
> WP.
> > > > >> Thus we moved to just improving and suggesting for translation the
> > > > >> leads of the English articles.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> 3) The "Content Translation" tool developed by the WMF made
> efforts
> > > > >> more efficient than handing around word documents. Would love to
> > > > >> see that
> > > > tool
> > > > >> improved further such as having it support specific lists of
> > > > >> articles
> > > > that
> > > > >> are deemed ready for translation by certain groups. Would also
> love
> > > > >> the tool to have tracking metrics for these types of projects.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> 4) We used volunteer translators mostly associated with our
> partner
> > > > >> Translators Without Borders. One issue we found was that languages
> > > > >> in which their are lots of translators such as French, Spanish,
> and
> > > > >> Italian there is often already at least some content on many of
> the
> > > > >> topics in question.
> > > > The
> > > > >> issue than becomes integration which needs an expert Wikipedia.
> And
> > > > >> for languages in which we have little content there are often few
> > > > >> avaliable volunteers.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> 5) With respect to "paying per word" the problem is this would
> > > > >> require significant checks and balances to make sure people are
> > > > >> taking the work seriously and not simple using Google translate
> for
> > > > >> the 70 or so
> > > > languages
> > > > >> in which it claims to work. We often had translations undergo a
> > > > >> second review and the volunteers at TWB have to pass certain tests
> > > > >> to be accepted.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> 6) I hired a coordinator for the translation project for a couple
> > > > >> of years.
> > > > >> The translators at TWB did not want to become Wikipedians or learn
> > > > >> how
> > > > to
> > > > >> use our systems. The coordinator created account like TransSW001
> > > > >> (one
> > > > for
> > > > >> each volunteer) and preloaded the article to be translated into
> > > > >> Content Translation. They than gave the volunteer translator the
> > > > >> user name and password to the account.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> 7) Were are we at now? There are currently just over 1,000 leads
> of
> > > > >> articles that have been improved and are ready for translation.
> > > > >> This includes articles on the 440 medications that are on the WHO
> > > > >> Essential List. We have worked a bit in some 100 languages. The
> > > > >> efforts have resulted in more than 5 million works translated and
> > > > >> integrated into different Wikipedias. The coordinator has
> > > > >> unfortunately moved on to his real job
> > > > of
> > > > >> teaching high school students.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> 8) The project continues but at a slower pace than before. The
> > > > Wikipedian
> > > > >> and retired orthopedic surgeon Subas Chandra Rout has basically
> > > > >> single handedly translated nearly all 1,000 leads into Odia a
> > > > >> language spoken
> > > > by
> > > > >> 40 million people in Eastern India. The amazing thing is that for
> > > > >> many
> > > > of
> > > > >> these topics this is the first and only information online about
> it.
> > > > >> Google
> > > > >> translate does not even claim to work in this language. Our
> > > > >> partnerships with WMTW and medical school in Taipai continue to
> > > > >> translate into
> > > > Chinese.
> > > > >> There the students translate and than their translations are
> > > > >> reviewed by their profs before being posted. They translate in
> > > > >> groups using hackpad
> > > > to
> > > > >> make it more social.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I am currently working to re invigorate the project :-) James
> > > > >>
> > > > >> On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 5:51 AM, John Erling Blad
> > > > >> <[hidden email]>
> > > > >> wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> > This discussion is going to be fun! =D
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > A little more than seventy Wikipedia-projects has more than 65k
> > > > >> articles,
> > > > >> > the remaining two hundred or so are pretty small.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > What if a base set of articles were opened for paid translators?
> > > > >> > There
> > > > >> are
> > > > >> > several lists of such base sets. We have both the thousand
> > > > >> > articles
> > > > from
> > > > >> > "List of articles every Wikipedia should have"[1] and and the
> ten
> > > > >> thousand
> > > > >> > articles from the expanded list[2].
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > Lets say verified good translators was paid about $0.01 per word
> > > > (about
> > > > >> $1
> > > > >> > for a 1k-article) for translating one of those articles into
> > > > >> > another language, with perhaps a higher pay for contributors in
> > > > >> > high-cost countries. The pay would also have to be higher for
> > > > >> > languages that
> > > > lacks
> > > > >> > good translation tools.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > I believe this would be an _enabling_ activity for the
> > > > >> > communities, as without a base set of articles it won't be
> > > > >> > possible to build a
> > > > >> community at
> > > > >> > all. By not paying for new articles, and only translating
> > > > >> well-referenced
> > > > >> > articles, some of the disputes in the communities could be
> > avoided.
> > > > >> Perhaps
> > > > >> > we should also identify good source articles, that would be a
> > help.
> > > > >> > Translated articles should be above some minimum size, but they
> > > > >> > does
> > > > not
> > > > >> > have to be full translations of the source article.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > A real problem is that our existing lists of good articles other
> > > > >> projects
> > > > >> > should have is pretty much biased towards Western World, so they
> > > > >> > need
> > > > a
> > > > >> lot
> > > > >> > of adjustments. Perhaps such a project would identify our
> inherit
> > > > bias?
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > [1]
> > > > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_every_
> > > > >> > Wikipedia_should_have
> > > > >> > [2]
> > > > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_every_
> > > > >> > Wikipedia_should_have/Expanded
> > > > >> > _______________________________________________
> > > > >> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to:
> > > > >> > [hidden email]
> > > > >> > Unsubscribe:
> > > > >> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > > > ,
> > > > >> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=
> unsubscri
> > > > >> > be>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> --
> > > > >> James Heilman
> > > > >> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> > > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik i/Wikimedia-l New messages to:
> > > > >> [hidden email]
> > > > >> Unsubscribe:
> > > > >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > >> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=
> unsubscribe
> > > > >> >
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
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> > >
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> > > http://www.avg.com
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
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--

--
- Scott MacLeod - Founder & President
- https://twitter.com/WorldUnivAndSch
- World University and School
- http://worlduniversityandschool.org
- http://scottmacleod.com

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

Michael Snow-5
In reply to this post by John Erling Blad
On 2/24/2018 1:53 PM, John Erling Blad wrote:
> The source article should meet certain standards, but do not fall in the
> trap where the translated articles must themselves be better than some
> imagined standard. That would lead to a defunc process.
I'm not saying a translated article must be flawless. But certainly if
we were paying for translations, it would be appropriate to have some
level of expectations for the quality of the result. With volunteers,
any honest effort is encouraged, although if the quality is low enough
to be worse than the alternative, they can be encouraged to redirect
that effort more productively.

--Michael Snow

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

Jean-Philippe Béland
In reply to this post by Vi to
I agree with the last part of Vito's message. For languages where '''all'''
the speakers speak another lingua franca, I think such process does not
have real value. The speakers will always go read in the bigger language
because the article is most likely to be better. The advantages of having
their own Wikipedia is to be able to express knowledge in their own way
according to their own culture.

Jean-Philippe Béland
Vice President, Wikimedia Canada

On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 12:09 PM Vi to <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I'll reply to the most recent email just for laziness.
>
> I'm doubtful for a series of reasons, most of were already expressed in a
> better way by others:
> *a remuneration in terms of quantity will weaken the quality of
> translations unless there's a strong mechanism of quality verification
> requiring a quantity of resources comparable to translations themselves;
> *articles are the result of a long process which reflects cultural identity
> of different communities, I'm not confident with transferring them to a
> different "weaker" cultures. My usage of "weaker" adjective only focuses
> about the strength of a cultural presence on the Internet;
> *articles to be translated are at high risk of reflecting the cultural
> identity (and biases) of the Western culture;
> *finally I think paid translators would hardly turn into stable
> Wikipedians.
>
> IMHO some paid editing may be better exploited in order to digitalise texts
> of unrepresented cultures (wikisource) or preserving their vocabularies
> (wiktionary).
>
> Also those languages which are secondary for all their speakers should be
> dealt with in a different fashion. I, for one, am a native speaker of
> specific variant of Sicilian, Sicilian is a secondary language to any of
> its speakers. Honestly, I'd find pointless to read the biography of
> Leonardo da Vinci in Sicilian while I can find thousands of books about him
> in Italian. Also I find this kind of translation creates a fake "literary"
> language totally detached from reality: there's no "encaustic painting" in
> Sicilian, still a Sicilian article about Leonardo will invent one.
>
> As a general principle we should always collect, rather than create,
> knowledge.
>
> Vito
>
> 2018-02-24 16:30 GMT+01:00 John Erling Blad <[hidden email]>:
>
> > My reply can be read as a bit more harsh than intended, it was merely a
> > statement about my present experience about translators in general.
> >
> > The problem with lack of contributors (and translators) in a specialized
> > area is that there is a small community, and within this community some
> > kind of selection is made. Each time a selection is repeated the
> remaining
> > group shrinks. Specialize the selection sufficiently many times and there
> > will be no contributors (or translators) left. It is simply a game of
> > probabilities. Thus, to make such a project work it must have a
> > sufficiently broad scope for the articles. Articles about public health
> > services will probably work even for a pretty small language group, but
> > specialized medical articles might create a problem. But then you find
> > a retired
> > orthopedic surgeon like Subas Chandra Rout…
> >
> > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 4:04 PM, James Heilman <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > I agree with John that it is very difficult to turn a translator into a
> > new
> > > editor. I also agree with Jean-Philippe that it is key to have
> > involvement
> > > of the local projects and preferable if they lead the efforts. Of the
> > > languages we worked in only one explicitly requested not to be
> involved /
> > > have translations from TWB.
> > >
> > > James
> > >
> > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 7:59 AM, John Erling Blad <[hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > You can turn it around; give added credits for translations from
> small
> > > > language projects and into the larger ones, that is a lot more
> > > interesting
> > > > than strictly translating from the larger language projects.
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 3:55 PM, Jean-Philippe Béland <
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I think the request for such projects should come from the
> concerned
> > > > > language projects, same for the list of articles. If not, in my
> > simple
> > > > > opinion, it is a form of coloniasm again.
> > > > >
> > > > > Jean-Philippe Béland
> > > > > Vice President, Wikimedia Canada
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 9:40 AM John Erling Blad <[hidden email]
> >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Should have added that the remaining points are somewhat less
> > > > interesting
> > > > > > in this context. Preloading a set of articles is a bad idea, the
> > > > > > translators should be able to chose for themselves. Articles
> should
> > > > also
> > > > > be
> > > > > > pretty broad, not very narrow technical or medical, ie vertical
> > > > articles,
> > > > > > as the number of editors that can handle those will be pretty
> > small.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In particular: Do not believe you can turn a teanslator into a
> new
> > > > > editor!
> > > > > > You can although turn an existing editor into a translator.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 3:34 PM, John Erling Blad <
> > [hidden email]>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > 1) You must start with high quality content and thus all
> articles
> > > are
> > > > > > >> extensively improved before being proposed for translation.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Note that to much pressure on "quality" can easily kill the
> > > project.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 3) The "Content Translation" tool developed by the WMF made
> > efforts
> > > > > more
> > > > > > >> efficient than handing around word documents. Would love to
> see
> > > that
> > > > > > tool
> > > > > > >> improved further such as having it support specific lists of
> > > > articles
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > >> are deemed ready for translation by certain groups. Would also
> > > love
> > > > > the
> > > > > > >> tool to have tracking metrics for these types of projects.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Didn't mention ContentTranslation, but it should be pretty
> > obvious.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 4) We used volunteer translators mostly associated with our
> > partner
> > > > > > >> Translators Without Borders. One issue we found was that
> > languages
> > > > in
> > > > > > >> which
> > > > > > >> their are lots of translators such as French, Spanish, and
> > Italian
> > > > > there
> > > > > > >> is
> > > > > > >> often already at least some content on many of the topics in
> > > > question.
> > > > > > The
> > > > > > >> issue than becomes integration which needs an expert
> Wikipedia.
> > > And
> > > > > for
> > > > > > >> languages in which we have little content there are often few
> > > > > avaliable
> > > > > > >> volunteers.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I used projects below 65k articles as an example, as the chance
> > of
> > > > > > > competing articles are pretty low.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 5) With respect to "paying per word" the problem is this would
> > > > require
> > > > > > >> significant checks and balances to make sure people are taking
> > the
> > > > > work
> > > > > > >> seriously and not simple using Google translate for the 70 or
> so
> > > > > > languages
> > > > > > >> in which it claims to work. We often had translations undergo
> a
> > > > second
> > > > > > >> review and the volunteers at TWB have to pass certain tests to
> > be
> > > > > > >> accepted.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'n my original email I wrote "verified good translators". It
> is
> > as
> > > > > > > simple as "Has the editor contributed other articles at the
> > > project?"
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 2:26 PM, James Heilman <
> [hidden email]
> > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >> We learned a few things during the medical translation project
> > > which
> > > > > > >> started back in 2011:
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> 1) You must start with high quality content and thus all
> > articles
> > > > are
> > > > > > >> extensively improved before being proposed for translation.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> 2) A lot of languages want "less" content than is present on
> EN
> > > WP.
> > > > > Thus
> > > > > > >> we
> > > > > > >> moved to just improving and suggesting for translation the
> leads
> > > of
> > > > > the
> > > > > > >> English articles.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> 3) The "Content Translation" tool developed by the WMF made
> > > efforts
> > > > > more
> > > > > > >> efficient than handing around word documents. Would love to
> see
> > > that
> > > > > > tool
> > > > > > >> improved further such as having it support specific lists of
> > > > articles
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > >> are deemed ready for translation by certain groups. Would also
> > > love
> > > > > the
> > > > > > >> tool to have tracking metrics for these types of projects.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> 4) We used volunteer translators mostly associated with our
> > > partner
> > > > > > >> Translators Without Borders. One issue we found was that
> > languages
> > > > in
> > > > > > >> which
> > > > > > >> their are lots of translators such as French, Spanish, and
> > Italian
> > > > > there
> > > > > > >> is
> > > > > > >> often already at least some content on many of the topics in
> > > > question.
> > > > > > The
> > > > > > >> issue than becomes integration which needs an expert
> Wikipedia.
> > > And
> > > > > for
> > > > > > >> languages in which we have little content there are often few
> > > > > avaliable
> > > > > > >> volunteers.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> 5) With respect to "paying per word" the problem is this would
> > > > require
> > > > > > >> significant checks and balances to make sure people are taking
> > the
> > > > > work
> > > > > > >> seriously and not simple using Google translate for the 70 or
> so
> > > > > > languages
> > > > > > >> in which it claims to work. We often had translations undergo
> a
> > > > second
> > > > > > >> review and the volunteers at TWB have to pass certain tests to
> > be
> > > > > > >> accepted.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> 6) I hired a coordinator for the translation project for a
> > couple
> > > of
> > > > > > >> years.
> > > > > > >> The translators at TWB did not want to become Wikipedians or
> > learn
> > > > how
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > >> use our systems. The coordinator created account like
> TransSW001
> > > > (one
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > >> each volunteer) and preloaded the article to be translated
> into
> > > > > Content
> > > > > > >> Translation. They than gave the volunteer translator the user
> > name
> > > > and
> > > > > > >> password to the account.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> 7) Were are we at now? There are currently just over 1,000
> leads
> > > of
> > > > > > >> articles that have been improved and are ready for
> translation.
> > > This
> > > > > > >> includes articles on the 440 medications that are on the WHO
> > > > Essential
> > > > > > >> List. We have worked a bit in some 100 languages. The efforts
> > have
> > > > > > >> resulted
> > > > > > >> in more than 5 million works translated and integrated into
> > > > different
> > > > > > >> Wikipedias. The coordinator has unfortunately moved on to his
> > real
> > > > job
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > >> teaching high school students.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> 8) The project continues but at a slower pace than before. The
> > > > > > Wikipedian
> > > > > > >> and retired orthopedic surgeon Subas Chandra Rout has
> basically
> > > > single
> > > > > > >> handedly translated nearly all 1,000 leads into Odia a
> language
> > > > spoken
> > > > > > by
> > > > > > >> 40 million people in Eastern India. The amazing thing is that
> > for
> > > > many
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > >> these topics this is the first and only information online
> about
> > > it.
> > > > > > >> Google
> > > > > > >> translate does not even claim to work in this language. Our
> > > > > partnerships
> > > > > > >> with WMTW and medical school in Taipai continue to translate
> > into
> > > > > > Chinese.
> > > > > > >> There the students translate and than their translations are
> > > > reviewed
> > > > > by
> > > > > > >> their profs before being posted. They translate in groups
> using
> > > > > hackpad
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > >> make it more social.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> I am currently working to re invigorate the project :-)
> > > > > > >> James
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 5:51 AM, John Erling Blad <
> > > [hidden email]
> > > > >
> > > > > > >> wrote:
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> > This discussion is going to be fun! =D
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > A little more than seventy Wikipedia-projects has more than
> > 65k
> > > > > > >> articles,
> > > > > > >> > the remaining two hundred or so are pretty small.
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > What if a base set of articles were opened for paid
> > translators?
> > > > > There
> > > > > > >> are
> > > > > > >> > several lists of such base sets. We have both the thousand
> > > > articles
> > > > > > from
> > > > > > >> > "List of articles every Wikipedia should have"[1] and and
> the
> > > ten
> > > > > > >> thousand
> > > > > > >> > articles from the expanded list[2].
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > Lets say verified good translators was paid about $0.01 per
> > word
> > > > > > (about
> > > > > > >> $1
> > > > > > >> > for a 1k-article) for translating one of those articles into
> > > > another
> > > > > > >> > language, with perhaps a higher pay for contributors in
> > > high-cost
> > > > > > >> > countries. The pay would also have to be higher for
> languages
> > > that
> > > > > > lacks
> > > > > > >> > good translation tools.
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > I believe this would be an _enabling_ activity for the
> > > > communities,
> > > > > as
> > > > > > >> > without a base set of articles it won't be possible to
> build a
> > > > > > >> community at
> > > > > > >> > all. By not paying for new articles, and only translating
> > > > > > >> well-referenced
> > > > > > >> > articles, some of the disputes in the communities could be
> > > > avoided.
> > > > > > >> Perhaps
> > > > > > >> > we should also identify good source articles, that would be
> a
> > > > help.
> > > > > > >> > Translated articles should be above some minimum size, but
> > they
> > > > does
> > > > > > not
> > > > > > >> > have to be full translations of the source article.
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > A real problem is that our existing lists of good articles
> > other
> > > > > > >> projects
> > > > > > >> > should have is pretty much biased towards Western World, so
> > they
> > > > > need
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > >> lot
> > > > > > >> > of adjustments. Perhaps such a project would identify our
> > > inherit
> > > > > > bias?
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > [1]
> > > > > > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_every_
> > > > > > >> > Wikipedia_should_have
> > > > > > >> > [2]
> > > > > > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_every_
> > > > > > >> > Wikipedia_should_have/Expanded
> > > > > > >> > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > >> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > > >> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > > >> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > >> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > > >> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > > > > > ,
> > > > > > >> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=
> > > > > unsubscribe>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> --
> > > > > > >> James Heilman
> > > > > > >> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> > > > > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > > > > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
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> > > --
> > > James Heilman
> > > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> > > _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

Vi to
In reply to this post by John Erling Blad
Cultural appropriation is something different, by "forcing" the contents in
a minority language we would actually be at risk of implementing a form of
"cultural colonialism" which is the opposite of a cultural appropriation.

NOTE: I refer to "the Western" in both cultural and "Wikipedian" sense: I
mean cultures with a strong presence on the web plus developed and
flourishing Wikipedia communities.

Helping minority languages with funds/workforce is not bad in my opinion,
but I think a bottom-up process must be followed, with the "bottom" being
as closer as possible to relevant linguistic/cultural communities. A
Wikipedia full of "what the Westerns think is important" in a minority
non-Western language would definitely fail project scopes.

This kind of problem almost does not arise with minority language
associated to Western cultures since they share the same cultural
backgrounds: back to my previous example the cultural background of
Sicilian is substantially equal to Italian one. Still, as I already wrote,
wikis in minority languages should focus on a certain aspect of wiki scope:
Wiki has roughly two main scopes: 1) sharing knowledge in a certain
language 2) also preserving the cultural heritage associated with different
languages. For languages mainly spoken as first language the "sharing
knowledge" aspect is predominant, while the second should take precedence
in languages whose speakers are native speakers of a "bigger" language.

Vito

2018-02-24 22:58 GMT+01:00 John Erling Blad <[hidden email]>:

> Seems like this is mostly about cultural ownership and appropriation. Not
> sure if it is possible to agree on this.
>
> On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 6:08 PM, Vi to <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > I'll reply to the most recent email just for laziness.
> >
> > I'm doubtful for a series of reasons, most of were already expressed in a
> > better way by others:
> > *a remuneration in terms of quantity will weaken the quality of
> > translations unless there's a strong mechanism of quality verification
> > requiring a quantity of resources comparable to translations themselves;
> > *articles are the result of a long process which reflects cultural
> identity
> > of different communities, I'm not confident with transferring them to a
> > different "weaker" cultures. My usage of "weaker" adjective only focuses
> > about the strength of a cultural presence on the Internet;
> > *articles to be translated are at high risk of reflecting the cultural
> > identity (and biases) of the Western culture;
> > *finally I think paid translators would hardly turn into stable
> > Wikipedians.
> >
> > IMHO some paid editing may be better exploited in order to digitalise
> texts
> > of unrepresented cultures (wikisource) or preserving their vocabularies
> > (wiktionary).
> >
> > Also those languages which are secondary for all their speakers should be
> > dealt with in a different fashion. I, for one, am a native speaker of
> > specific variant of Sicilian, Sicilian is a secondary language to any of
> > its speakers. Honestly, I'd find pointless to read the biography of
> > Leonardo da Vinci in Sicilian while I can find thousands of books about
> him
> > in Italian. Also I find this kind of translation creates a fake
> "literary"
> > language totally detached from reality: there's no "encaustic painting"
> in
> > Sicilian, still a Sicilian article about Leonardo will invent one.
> >
> > As a general principle we should always collect, rather than create,
> > knowledge.
> >
> > Vito
> >
> > 2018-02-24 16:30 GMT+01:00 John Erling Blad <[hidden email]>:
> >
> > > My reply can be read as a bit more harsh than intended, it was merely a
> > > statement about my present experience about translators in general.
> > >
> > > The problem with lack of contributors (and translators) in a
> specialized
> > > area is that there is a small community, and within this community some
> > > kind of selection is made. Each time a selection is repeated the
> > remaining
> > > group shrinks. Specialize the selection sufficiently many times and
> there
> > > will be no contributors (or translators) left. It is simply a game of
> > > probabilities. Thus, to make such a project work it must have a
> > > sufficiently broad scope for the articles. Articles about public health
> > > services will probably work even for a pretty small language group, but
> > > specialized medical articles might create a problem. But then you find
> > > a retired
> > > orthopedic surgeon like Subas Chandra Rout…
> > >
> > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 4:04 PM, James Heilman <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I agree with John that it is very difficult to turn a translator
> into a
> > > new
> > > > editor. I also agree with Jean-Philippe that it is key to have
> > > involvement
> > > > of the local projects and preferable if they lead the efforts. Of the
> > > > languages we worked in only one explicitly requested not to be
> > involved /
> > > > have translations from TWB.
> > > >
> > > > James
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 7:59 AM, John Erling Blad <[hidden email]>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > You can turn it around; give added credits for translations from
> > small
> > > > > language projects and into the larger ones, that is a lot more
> > > > interesting
> > > > > than strictly translating from the larger language projects.
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 3:55 PM, Jean-Philippe Béland <
> > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > I think the request for such projects should come from the
> > concerned
> > > > > > language projects, same for the list of articles. If not, in my
> > > simple
> > > > > > opinion, it is a form of coloniasm again.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Jean-Philippe Béland
> > > > > > Vice President, Wikimedia Canada
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 9:40 AM John Erling Blad <
> [hidden email]
> > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Should have added that the remaining points are somewhat less
> > > > > interesting
> > > > > > > in this context. Preloading a set of articles is a bad idea,
> the
> > > > > > > translators should be able to chose for themselves. Articles
> > should
> > > > > also
> > > > > > be
> > > > > > > pretty broad, not very narrow technical or medical, ie vertical
> > > > > articles,
> > > > > > > as the number of editors that can handle those will be pretty
> > > small.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In particular: Do not believe you can turn a teanslator into a
> > new
> > > > > > editor!
> > > > > > > You can although turn an existing editor into a translator.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 3:34 PM, John Erling Blad <
> > > [hidden email]>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 1) You must start with high quality content and thus all
> > articles
> > > > are
> > > > > > > >> extensively improved before being proposed for translation.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Note that to much pressure on "quality" can easily kill the
> > > > project.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 3) The "Content Translation" tool developed by the WMF made
> > > efforts
> > > > > > more
> > > > > > > >> efficient than handing around word documents. Would love to
> > see
> > > > that
> > > > > > > tool
> > > > > > > >> improved further such as having it support specific lists of
> > > > > articles
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > >> are deemed ready for translation by certain groups. Would
> also
> > > > love
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > >> tool to have tracking metrics for these types of projects.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Didn't mention ContentTranslation, but it should be pretty
> > > obvious.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 4) We used volunteer translators mostly associated with our
> > > partner
> > > > > > > >> Translators Without Borders. One issue we found was that
> > > languages
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > >> which
> > > > > > > >> their are lots of translators such as French, Spanish, and
> > > Italian
> > > > > > there
> > > > > > > >> is
> > > > > > > >> often already at least some content on many of the topics in
> > > > > question.
> > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > >> issue than becomes integration which needs an expert
> > Wikipedia.
> > > > And
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > >> languages in which we have little content there are often
> few
> > > > > > avaliable
> > > > > > > >> volunteers.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I used projects below 65k articles as an example, as the
> chance
> > > of
> > > > > > > > competing articles are pretty low.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 5) With respect to "paying per word" the problem is this
> would
> > > > > require
> > > > > > > >> significant checks and balances to make sure people are
> taking
> > > the
> > > > > > work
> > > > > > > >> seriously and not simple using Google translate for the 70
> or
> > so
> > > > > > > languages
> > > > > > > >> in which it claims to work. We often had translations
> undergo
> > a
> > > > > second
> > > > > > > >> review and the volunteers at TWB have to pass certain tests
> to
> > > be
> > > > > > > >> accepted.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I'n my original email I wrote "verified good translators". It
> > is
> > > as
> > > > > > > > simple as "Has the editor contributed other articles at the
> > > > project?"
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 2:26 PM, James Heilman <
> > [hidden email]
> > > >
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >> We learned a few things during the medical translation
> project
> > > > which
> > > > > > > >> started back in 2011:
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> 1) You must start with high quality content and thus all
> > > articles
> > > > > are
> > > > > > > >> extensively improved before being proposed for translation.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> 2) A lot of languages want "less" content than is present on
> > EN
> > > > WP.
> > > > > > Thus
> > > > > > > >> we
> > > > > > > >> moved to just improving and suggesting for translation the
> > leads
> > > > of
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > >> English articles.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> 3) The "Content Translation" tool developed by the WMF made
> > > > efforts
> > > > > > more
> > > > > > > >> efficient than handing around word documents. Would love to
> > see
> > > > that
> > > > > > > tool
> > > > > > > >> improved further such as having it support specific lists of
> > > > > articles
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > >> are deemed ready for translation by certain groups. Would
> also
> > > > love
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > >> tool to have tracking metrics for these types of projects.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> 4) We used volunteer translators mostly associated with our
> > > > partner
> > > > > > > >> Translators Without Borders. One issue we found was that
> > > languages
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > >> which
> > > > > > > >> their are lots of translators such as French, Spanish, and
> > > Italian
> > > > > > there
> > > > > > > >> is
> > > > > > > >> often already at least some content on many of the topics in
> > > > > question.
> > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > >> issue than becomes integration which needs an expert
> > Wikipedia.
> > > > And
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > >> languages in which we have little content there are often
> few
> > > > > > avaliable
> > > > > > > >> volunteers.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> 5) With respect to "paying per word" the problem is this
> would
> > > > > require
> > > > > > > >> significant checks and balances to make sure people are
> taking
> > > the
> > > > > > work
> > > > > > > >> seriously and not simple using Google translate for the 70
> or
> > so
> > > > > > > languages
> > > > > > > >> in which it claims to work. We often had translations
> undergo
> > a
> > > > > second
> > > > > > > >> review and the volunteers at TWB have to pass certain tests
> to
> > > be
> > > > > > > >> accepted.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> 6) I hired a coordinator for the translation project for a
> > > couple
> > > > of
> > > > > > > >> years.
> > > > > > > >> The translators at TWB did not want to become Wikipedians or
> > > learn
> > > > > how
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > >> use our systems. The coordinator created account like
> > TransSW001
> > > > > (one
> > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > >> each volunteer) and preloaded the article to be translated
> > into
> > > > > > Content
> > > > > > > >> Translation. They than gave the volunteer translator the
> user
> > > name
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > >> password to the account.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> 7) Were are we at now? There are currently just over 1,000
> > leads
> > > > of
> > > > > > > >> articles that have been improved and are ready for
> > translation.
> > > > This
> > > > > > > >> includes articles on the 440 medications that are on the WHO
> > > > > Essential
> > > > > > > >> List. We have worked a bit in some 100 languages. The
> efforts
> > > have
> > > > > > > >> resulted
> > > > > > > >> in more than 5 million works translated and integrated into
> > > > > different
> > > > > > > >> Wikipedias. The coordinator has unfortunately moved on to
> his
> > > real
> > > > > job
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > >> teaching high school students.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> 8) The project continues but at a slower pace than before.
> The
> > > > > > > Wikipedian
> > > > > > > >> and retired orthopedic surgeon Subas Chandra Rout has
> > basically
> > > > > single
> > > > > > > >> handedly translated nearly all 1,000 leads into Odia a
> > language
> > > > > spoken
> > > > > > > by
> > > > > > > >> 40 million people in Eastern India. The amazing thing is
> that
> > > for
> > > > > many
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > >> these topics this is the first and only information online
> > about
> > > > it.
> > > > > > > >> Google
> > > > > > > >> translate does not even claim to work in this language. Our
> > > > > > partnerships
> > > > > > > >> with WMTW and medical school in Taipai continue to translate
> > > into
> > > > > > > Chinese.
> > > > > > > >> There the students translate and than their translations are
> > > > > reviewed
> > > > > > by
> > > > > > > >> their profs before being posted. They translate in groups
> > using
> > > > > > hackpad
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > >> make it more social.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> I am currently working to re invigorate the project :-)
> > > > > > > >> James
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 5:51 AM, John Erling Blad <
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > >> wrote:
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> > This discussion is going to be fun! =D
> > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > >> > A little more than seventy Wikipedia-projects has more
> than
> > > 65k
> > > > > > > >> articles,
> > > > > > > >> > the remaining two hundred or so are pretty small.
> > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > >> > What if a base set of articles were opened for paid
> > > translators?
> > > > > > There
> > > > > > > >> are
> > > > > > > >> > several lists of such base sets. We have both the thousand
> > > > > articles
> > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > >> > "List of articles every Wikipedia should have"[1] and and
> > the
> > > > ten
> > > > > > > >> thousand
> > > > > > > >> > articles from the expanded list[2].
> > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > >> > Lets say verified good translators was paid about $0.01
> per
> > > word
> > > > > > > (about
> > > > > > > >> $1
> > > > > > > >> > for a 1k-article) for translating one of those articles
> into
> > > > > another
> > > > > > > >> > language, with perhaps a higher pay for contributors in
> > > > high-cost
> > > > > > > >> > countries. The pay would also have to be higher for
> > languages
> > > > that
> > > > > > > lacks
> > > > > > > >> > good translation tools.
> > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > >> > I believe this would be an _enabling_ activity for the
> > > > > communities,
> > > > > > as
> > > > > > > >> > without a base set of articles it won't be possible to
> > build a
> > > > > > > >> community at
> > > > > > > >> > all. By not paying for new articles, and only translating
> > > > > > > >> well-referenced
> > > > > > > >> > articles, some of the disputes in the communities could be
> > > > > avoided.
> > > > > > > >> Perhaps
> > > > > > > >> > we should also identify good source articles, that would
> be
> > a
> > > > > help.
> > > > > > > >> > Translated articles should be above some minimum size, but
> > > they
> > > > > does
> > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > >> > have to be full translations of the source article.
> > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > >> > A real problem is that our existing lists of good articles
> > > other
> > > > > > > >> projects
> > > > > > > >> > should have is pretty much biased towards Western World,
> so
> > > they
> > > > > > need
> > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > >> lot
> > > > > > > >> > of adjustments. Perhaps such a project would identify our
> > > > inherit
> > > > > > > bias?
> > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > >> > [1]
> > > > > > > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_every_
> > > > > > > >> > Wikipedia_should_have
> > > > > > > >> > [2]
> > > > > > > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_every_
> > > > > > > >> > Wikipedia_should_have/Expanded
> > > > > > > >> > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > >> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > > > >> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > > > >> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > > >> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > > > >> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > > mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > > > > > > ,
> > > > > > > >> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=
> > > > > > unsubscribe>
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> --
> > > > > > > >> James Heilman
> > > > > > > >> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> > > > > > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

WereSpielChequers-2
In reply to this post by John Erling Blad
There were two presentations on paid translation at Wikimania in Gdansk. I think that would be 2010? One by Google.org, the other by Google.com (charity and corporate wings).

I'm afraid my memory of the event is far from perfect. But some things stuck in my mind.

As one would expect, many of the things that could go wrong had gone wrong.

Translators were not recruited from the community and did not understand the need to interact with the community.

The aims of the two projects were very different. .org wanted to make basic medical info available in a number of languages that were emerging on the Internet; .com wanted to give responses to common search terms in those languages. Bangla, Tamil and I think Telegu were among them.

One, I think it was Bangla had banned a group of translators, on another an irate attendee explained that people who spoke his language did not want articles on Hollywood film stars: I suspect that shows a disconnect between search engine results and the wishes of wikipedians, it illustrates the concerns others have already raised re colonialism, and the difficulty of mixing volunteers and paid staff in one project.

No surprise that one of the two projects was much more contentious than the other, and not just among Wikipedians on the target project. I can understand the frustration of a wikipedian volunteer who realises he is fixing for free work that someone else has been paid to do.

I don't know whether the concern about Hollywood was just an inter generational thing, whether the people with access tohollywood films were representative of the young, or representative of the tech savvy verbally bilingual early adopters in that society and unrepresentative of the tens of millions in that language who were about to come online.

But I do remember the "common search term" project being much more contentious than the medical one.

My experience from here and several other part volunteer communities is that there are two golden rules to follow when mixing paid and unpaid staff.

1 Only pay people to do things that the volunteers want to have happen but aren't volunteering to do.
2 As much as possible recruit your paid staff from your community of volunteers.

Sadly almost all my examples of getting this wrong come from this movement.

Regards

Jonathan / WereSpielChequers


> On 24 Feb 2018, at 19:41, [hidden email] wrote:
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>  1. Re: Paid translation (Gnangarra)
>  2. Re: Paid translation (Michael Snow)
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> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 03:05:41 +0800
> From: Gnangarra <[hidden email]>
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation
> Message-ID:
>   <CAD==kb+-mr3+rBBYC=[hidden email]>
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>
> this would be a good practical exercise to develop for WiR / WikiEd
> programs in universities where they can engage with International Students
> and local students studying additional languages as means of learning the
> written nuances of the individual languages.  Any funding would be better
> utilised in enabling such programs where the flow on impact is more
> likely{fact} to be lasting.  Though I can see value in using a gift/reward
> system for technically disadvantaged communities like the case presented
> about Swahili .    The focus would need to be on basic health, hygiene,
> biology, science topics rather than more social or political topics.
>
>> On 25 February 2018 at 01:08, Vi to <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I'll reply to the most recent email just for laziness.
>>
>> I'm doubtful for a series of reasons, most of were already expressed in a
>> better way by others:
>> *a remuneration in terms of quantity will weaken the quality of
>> translations unless there's a strong mechanism of quality verification
>> requiring a quantity of resources comparable to translations themselves;
>> *articles are the result of a long process which reflects cultural identity
>> of different communities, I'm not confident with transferring them to a
>> different "weaker" cultures. My usage of "weaker" adjective only focuses
>> about the strength of a cultural presence on the Internet;
>> *articles to be translated are at high risk of reflecting the cultural
>> identity (and biases) of the Western culture;
>> *finally I think paid translators would hardly turn into stable
>> Wikipedians.
>>
>> IMHO some paid editing may be better exploited in order to digitalise texts
>> of unrepresented cultures (wikisource) or preserving their vocabularies
>> (wiktionary).
>>
>> Also those languages which are secondary for all their speakers should be
>> dealt with in a different fashion. I, for one, am a native speaker of
>> specific variant of Sicilian, Sicilian is a secondary language to any of
>> its speakers. Honestly, I'd find pointless to read the biography of
>> Leonardo da Vinci in Sicilian while I can find thousands of books about him
>> in Italian. Also I find this kind of translation creates a fake "literary"
>> language totally detached from reality: there's no "encaustic painting" in
>> Sicilian, still a Sicilian article about Leonardo will invent one.
>>
>> As a general principle we should always collect, rather than create,
>> knowledge.
>>
>> Vito
>>
>> 2018-02-24 16:30 GMT+01:00 John Erling Blad <[hidden email]>:
>>
>>> My reply can be read as a bit more harsh than intended, it was merely a
>>> statement about my present experience about translators in general.
>>>
>>> The problem with lack of contributors (and translators) in a specialized
>>> area is that there is a small community, and within this community some
>>> kind of selection is made. Each time a selection is repeated the
>> remaining
>>> group shrinks. Specialize the selection sufficiently many times and there
>>> will be no contributors (or translators) left. It is simply a game of
>>> probabilities. Thus, to make such a project work it must have a
>>> sufficiently broad scope for the articles. Articles about public health
>>> services will probably work even for a pretty small language group, but
>>> specialized medical articles might create a problem. But then you find
>>> a retired
>>> orthopedic surgeon like Subas Chandra Rout…
>>>
>>>> On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 4:04 PM, James Heilman <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I agree with John that it is very difficult to turn a translator into a
>>> new
>>>> editor. I also agree with Jean-Philippe that it is key to have
>>> involvement
>>>> of the local projects and preferable if they lead the efforts. Of the
>>>> languages we worked in only one explicitly requested not to be
>> involved /
>>>> have translations from TWB.
>>>>
>>>> James
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 7:59 AM, John Erling Blad <[hidden email]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> You can turn it around; give added credits for translations from
>> small
>>>>> language projects and into the larger ones, that is a lot more
>>>> interesting
>>>>> than strictly translating from the larger language projects.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 3:55 PM, Jean-Philippe Béland <
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I think the request for such projects should come from the
>> concerned
>>>>>> language projects, same for the list of articles. If not, in my
>>> simple
>>>>>> opinion, it is a form of coloniasm again.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jean-Philippe Béland
>>>>>> Vice President, Wikimedia Canada
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 9:40 AM John Erling Blad <[hidden email]
>>>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Should have added that the remaining points are somewhat less
>>>>> interesting
>>>>>>> in this context. Preloading a set of articles is a bad idea, the
>>>>>>> translators should be able to chose for themselves. Articles
>> should
>>>>> also
>>>>>> be
>>>>>>> pretty broad, not very narrow technical or medical, ie vertical
>>>>> articles,
>>>>>>> as the number of editors that can handle those will be pretty
>>> small.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In particular: Do not believe you can turn a teanslator into a
>> new
>>>>>> editor!
>>>>>>> You can although turn an existing editor into a translator.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 3:34 PM, John Erling Blad <
>>> [hidden email]>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1) You must start with high quality content and thus all
>> articles
>>>> are
>>>>>>>>> extensively improved before being proposed for translation.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Note that to much pressure on "quality" can easily kill the
>>>> project.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 3) The "Content Translation" tool developed by the WMF made
>>> efforts
>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>> efficient than handing around word documents. Would love to
>> see
>>>> that
>>>>>>> tool
>>>>>>>>> improved further such as having it support specific lists of
>>>>> articles
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> are deemed ready for translation by certain groups. Would also
>>>> love
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> tool to have tracking metrics for these types of projects.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Didn't mention ContentTranslation, but it should be pretty
>>> obvious.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 4) We used volunteer translators mostly associated with our
>>> partner
>>>>>>>>> Translators Without Borders. One issue we found was that
>>> languages
>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>>> their are lots of translators such as French, Spanish, and
>>> Italian
>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>> often already at least some content on many of the topics in
>>>>> question.
>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>> issue than becomes integration which needs an expert
>> Wikipedia.
>>>> And
>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> languages in which we have little content there are often few
>>>>>> avaliable
>>>>>>>>> volunteers.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I used projects below 65k articles as an example, as the chance
>>> of
>>>>>>>> competing articles are pretty low.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 5) With respect to "paying per word" the problem is this would
>>>>> require
>>>>>>>>> significant checks and balances to make sure people are taking
>>> the
>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>>> seriously and not simple using Google translate for the 70 or
>> so
>>>>>>> languages
>>>>>>>>> in which it claims to work. We often had translations undergo
>> a
>>>>> second
>>>>>>>>> review and the volunteers at TWB have to pass certain tests to
>>> be
>>>>>>>>> accepted.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'n my original email I wrote "verified good translators". It
>> is
>>> as
>>>>>>>> simple as "Has the editor contributed other articles at the
>>>> project?"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 2:26 PM, James Heilman <
>> [hidden email]
>>>>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We learned a few things during the medical translation project
>>>> which
>>>>>>>>> started back in 2011:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 1) You must start with high quality content and thus all
>>> articles
>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>> extensively improved before being proposed for translation.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2) A lot of languages want "less" content than is present on
>> EN
>>>> WP.
>>>>>> Thus
>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>> moved to just improving and suggesting for translation the
>> leads
>>>> of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> English articles.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 3) The "Content Translation" tool developed by the WMF made
>>>> efforts
>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>> efficient than handing around word documents. Would love to
>> see
>>>> that
>>>>>>> tool
>>>>>>>>> improved further such as having it support specific lists of
>>>>> articles
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> are deemed ready for translation by certain groups. Would also
>>>> love
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> tool to have tracking metrics for these types of projects.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 4) We used volunteer translators mostly associated with our
>>>> partner
>>>>>>>>> Translators Without Borders. One issue we found was that
>>> languages
>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>>> their are lots of translators such as French, Spanish, and
>>> Italian
>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>> often already at least some content on many of the topics in
>>>>> question.
>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>> issue than becomes integration which needs an expert
>> Wikipedia.
>>>> And
>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> languages in which we have little content there are often few
>>>>>> avaliable
>>>>>>>>> volunteers.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 5) With respect to "paying per word" the problem is this would
>>>>> require
>>>>>>>>> significant checks and balances to make sure people are taking
>>> the
>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>>> seriously and not simple using Google translate for the 70 or
>> so
>>>>>>> languages
>>>>>>>>> in which it claims to work. We often had translations undergo
>> a
>>>>> second
>>>>>>>>> review and the volunteers at TWB have to pass certain tests to
>>> be
>>>>>>>>> accepted.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 6) I hired a coordinator for the translation project for a
>>> couple
>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> years.
>>>>>>>>> The translators at TWB did not want to become Wikipedians or
>>> learn
>>>>> how
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> use our systems. The coordinator created account like
>> TransSW001
>>>>> (one
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> each volunteer) and preloaded the article to be translated
>> into
>>>>>> Content
>>>>>>>>> Translation. They than gave the volunteer translator the user
>>> name
>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> password to the account.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 7) Were are we at now? There are currently just over 1,000
>> leads
>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> articles that have been improved and are ready for
>> translation.
>>>> This
>>>>>>>>> includes articles on the 440 medications that are on the WHO
>>>>> Essential
>>>>>>>>> List. We have worked a bit in some 100 languages. The efforts
>>> have
>>>>>>>>> resulted
>>>>>>>>> in more than 5 million works translated and integrated into
>>>>> different
>>>>>>>>> Wikipedias. The coordinator has unfortunately moved on to his
>>> real
>>>>> job
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> teaching high school students.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 8) The project continues but at a slower pace than before. The
>>>>>>> Wikipedian
>>>>>>>>> and retired orthopedic surgeon Subas Chandra Rout has
>> basically
>>>>> single
>>>>>>>>> handedly translated nearly all 1,000 leads into Odia a
>> language
>>>>> spoken
>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>>>> 40 million people in Eastern India. The amazing thing is that
>>> for
>>>>> many
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> these topics this is the first and only information online
>> about
>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>> Google
>>>>>>>>> translate does not even claim to work in this language. Our
>>>>>> partnerships
>>>>>>>>> with WMTW and medical school in Taipai continue to translate
>>> into
>>>>>>> Chinese.
>>>>>>>>> There the students translate and than their translations are
>>>>> reviewed
>>>>>> by
>>>>>>>>> their profs before being posted. They translate in groups
>> using
>>>>>> hackpad
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> make it more social.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I am currently working to re invigorate the project :-)
>>>>>>>>> James
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 5:51 AM, John Erling Blad <
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This discussion is going to be fun! =D
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> A little more than seventy Wikipedia-projects has more than
>>> 65k
>>>>>>>>> articles,
>>>>>>>>>> the remaining two hundred or so are pretty small.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What if a base set of articles were opened for paid
>>> translators?
>>>>>> There
>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>> several lists of such base sets. We have both the thousand
>>>>> articles
>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>> "List of articles every Wikipedia should have"[1] and and
>> the
>>>> ten
>>>>>>>>> thousand
>>>>>>>>>> articles from the expanded list[2].
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Lets say verified good translators was paid about $0.01 per
>>> word
>>>>>>> (about
>>>>>>>>> $1
>>>>>>>>>> for a 1k-article) for translating one of those articles into
>>>>> another
>>>>>>>>>> language, with perhaps a higher pay for contributors in
>>>> high-cost
>>>>>>>>>> countries. The pay would also have to be higher for
>> languages
>>>> that
>>>>>>> lacks
>>>>>>>>>> good translation tools.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I believe this would be an _enabling_ activity for the
>>>>> communities,
>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>> without a base set of articles it won't be possible to
>> build a
>>>>>>>>> community at
>>>>>>>>>> all. By not paying for new articles, and only translating
>>>>>>>>> well-referenced
>>>>>>>>>> articles, some of the disputes in the communities could be
>>>>> avoided.
>>>>>>>>> Perhaps
>>>>>>>>>> we should also identify good source articles, that would be
>> a
>>>>> help.
>>>>>>>>>> Translated articles should be above some minimum size, but
>>> they
>>>>> does
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>> have to be full translations of the source article.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> A real problem is that our existing lists of good articles
>>> other
>>>>>>>>> projects
>>>>>>>>>> should have is pretty much biased towards Western World, so
>>> they
>>>>>> need
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>> lot
>>>>>>>>>> of adjustments. Perhaps such a project would identify our
>>>> inherit
>>>>>>> bias?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> [1]
>>>>>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_every_
>>>>>>>>>> Wikipedia_should_have
>>>>>>>>>> [2]
>>>>>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_every_
>>>>>>>>>> Wikipedia_should_have/Expanded
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/
>>>>>>>>>> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/
>>>>>>>>>> wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>>>>>>>>> New messages to: [hidden email]
>>>>>>>>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
>>>>>> mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>>>>>>> ,
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=
>>>>>> unsubscribe>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> James Heilman
>>>>>>>>> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
>>>>>>>>> i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
>>>>>>>>> i/Wikimedia-l
>>>>>>>>> New messages to: [hidden email]
>>>>>>>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
>>>>> mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>>>>>> ,
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=
>>>>> unsubscribe>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>>>>>> New messages to: [hidden email]
>>>>>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
>>>> mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>>>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=
>>> unsubscribe>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/
>>>>>> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
>>>>>> wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>>>>> New messages to: [hidden email]
>>>>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
>>> mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=
>> unsubscribe>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
>>>>> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
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>>>>> New messages to: [hidden email]
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>>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> James Heilman
>>>> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
>>>> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
>>>> wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>>> New messages to: [hidden email]
>>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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>>> _______________________________________________
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>
>
> --
> GN.
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> WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
> Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
> Out now: A.Gaynor, P. Newman and P. Jennings (eds.), *Never Again:
> Reflections on Environmental Responsibility after Roe 8*, UWAP, 2017.  Order
> here
> <https://uwap.uwa.edu.au/products/never-again-reflections-on-environmental-responsibility-after-roe-8>
> .
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 11:41:11 -0800
> From: Michael Snow <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation
> Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
> I think the experience I've had with translating matches up well with
> the conclusions James has outlined. Even though I'm more likely to
> translate content into English rather than out of English, the
> principles still hold.
>
> Trying to produce a translation without quality content in the original
> article is a frustrating and pointless exercise for the translator.
> Unless the original meets certain standards, it would be better and
> easier to write the article from scratch in the "destination" language
> and translate it back to the "source" language.
>
> Assuming we have a good article in the original language, I definitely
> encourage translators to use editorial judgment in what they carry over.
> Focusing on the lead section is one possible approach. In general,
> because we are trying to translate information and not literature, we
> should have different priorities. It is more important that the
> translation maintain fidelity to the facts than to the language and
> structure of the article. Sometimes it makes sense to pass over certain
> details, even a beginning-to-end translation might come out a bit
> condensed. As one reason for this, making some details accessible to the
> cultural audience in the new language can at times require a fair amount
> of elaboration, more than may be ideal for the context under discussion.
> The best approach to use is one of adaptation as much as translation.
>
> I don't have strong feelings about whether a paid model will work, or
> work better than purely volunteer activity, but I would be open to
> seeing a trial. The essential thing is that we find translators who can
> understand and apply standards of quality in their work, much like we
> would expect if they were editors writing entirely new articles.
>
> --Michael Snow
>
>> On 2/24/2018 5:26 AM, James Heilman wrote:
>> We learned a few things during the medical translation project which
>> started back in 2011:
>>
>> 1) You must start with high quality content and thus all articles are
>> extensively improved before being proposed for translation.
>>
>> 2) A lot of languages want "less" content than is present on EN WP. Thus we
>> moved to just improving and suggesting for translation the leads of the
>> English articles.
>>
>> 3) The "Content Translation" tool developed by the WMF made efforts more
>> efficient than handing around word documents. Would love to see that tool
>> improved further such as having it support specific lists of articles that
>> are deemed ready for translation by certain groups. Would also love the
>> tool to have tracking metrics for these types of projects.
>>
>> 4) We used volunteer translators mostly associated with our partner
>> Translators Without Borders. One issue we found was that languages in which
>> their are lots of translators such as French, Spanish, and Italian there is
>> often already at least some content on many of the topics in question. The
>> issue than becomes integration which needs an expert Wikipedia. And for
>> languages in which we have little content there are often few avaliable
>> volunteers.
>>
>> 5) With respect to "paying per word" the problem is this would require
>> significant checks and balances to make sure people are taking the work
>> seriously and not simple using Google translate for the 70 or so languages
>> in which it claims to work. We often had translations undergo a second
>> review and the volunteers at TWB have to pass certain tests to be accepted.
>>
>> 6) I hired a coordinator for the translation project for a couple of years.
>> The translators at TWB did not want to become Wikipedians or learn how to
>> use our systems. The coordinator created account like TransSW001 (one for
>> each volunteer) and preloaded the article to be translated into Content
>> Translation. They than gave the volunteer translator the user name and
>> password to the account.
>>
>> 7) Were are we at now? There are currently just over 1,000 leads of
>> articles that have been improved and are ready for translation. This
>> includes articles on the 440 medications that are on the WHO Essential
>> List. We have worked a bit in some 100 languages. The efforts have resulted
>> in more than 5 million works translated and integrated into different
>> Wikipedias. The coordinator has unfortunately moved on to his real job of
>> teaching high school students.
>>
>> 8) The project continues but at a slower pace than before. The Wikipedian
>> and retired orthopedic surgeon Subas Chandra Rout has basically single
>> handedly translated nearly all 1,000 leads into Odia a language spoken by
>> 40 million people in Eastern India. The amazing thing is that for many of
>> these topics this is the first and only information online about it. Google
>> translate does not even claim to work in this language. Our partnerships
>> with WMTW and medical school in Taipai continue to translate into Chinese.
>> There the students translate and than their translations are reviewed by
>> their profs before being posted. They translate in groups using hackpad to
>> make it more social.
>>
>> I am currently working to re invigorate the project :-)
>> James
>>
>>> On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 5:51 AM, John Erling Blad <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> This discussion is going to be fun! =D
>>>
>>> A little more than seventy Wikipedia-projects has more than 65k articles,
>>> the remaining two hundred or so are pretty small.
>>>
>>> What if a base set of articles were opened for paid translators? There are
>>> several lists of such base sets. We have both the thousand articles from
>>> "List of articles every Wikipedia should have"[1] and and the ten thousand
>>> articles from the expanded list[2].
>>>
>>> Lets say verified good translators was paid about $0.01 per word (about $1
>>> for a 1k-article) for translating one of those articles into another
>>> language, with perhaps a higher pay for contributors in high-cost
>>> countries. The pay would also have to be higher for languages that lacks
>>> good translation tools.
>>>
>>> I believe this would be an _enabling_ activity for the communities, as
>>> without a base set of articles it won't be possible to build a community at
>>> all. By not paying for new articles, and only translating well-referenced
>>> articles, some of the disputes in the communities could be avoided. Perhaps
>>> we should also identify good source articles, that would be a help.
>>> Translated articles should be above some minimum size, but they does not
>>> have to be full translations of the source article.
>>>
>>> A real problem is that our existing lists of good articles other projects
>>> should have is pretty much biased towards Western World, so they need a lot
>>> of adjustments. Perhaps such a project would identify our inherit bias?
>>>
>>> [1]
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_every_
>>> Wikipedia_should_have
>>> [2]
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_every_
>>> Wikipedia_should_have/Expanded
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
>>> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
>>> wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>> New messages to: [hidden email]
>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
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> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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> ------------------------------
>
> End of Wikimedia-l Digest, Vol 167, Issue 38
> ********************************************

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

Amir E. Aharoni
In reply to this post by John Erling Blad
I'll start by saying that I'm one of the developers of Content Translation,
so I'm obviously biased about this topic.

A lot of good points were raised here, but there's one that is not really
mentioned. If it sounds obvious to you, it's great, but it's not obvious to
everyone. Here it is:

More successful Wikipedia projects tend to be in languages in which there
is an established history and tradition of:
* elementary and higher education where teachers and professors speak to
students in that language, and in which students write papers in that
language
* publishing textbooks
* publishing encyclopedias
* publishing dictionaries
* translating works from (any) other languages, both fiction and reference

People who can read in these developed languages should remember this
privilege that they have: English, French, Russian, Spanish, German,
Polish, Italian, Dutch, Czech, Japanese, Norwegian, Hebrew and a few other
well-developed Wikipedias are written in languages in which good
encyclopedias had already existed before Wikipedia came along. A Wikipedia
in these languages didn't make encyclopedic knowledge available in these
languages; it made encyclopedic knowledge *more easily* available in them.

There are many other things that (probably) affect the development of a
Wikipedia, such as web connectivity; speakers' population; speakers'
attitude to the language; work week length (and the remaining free time);
volunteering culture (or lack thereof); support of common operating systems
for the language; economic indicators like GDP and HDI in the countries
where the language is spoken; etc. I'm not aware of research that checks
the correlation between these aspects and the development of a Wikipedia
project in a language, but I strongly suspect that it exists for at least
some of the above. (If anybody reading this is aware of such research, I'll
be very happy to read it.)

But it's important to go back to the first point here: The existence of
previous encyclopedias makes it easier for writers in these languages to
simply start writing. "An encyclopedia" is not a new concept for them. The
culture around these languages already had well-developed scientific
terminology and a language style.

When I speak to people who write in Wikipedia in languages of India,
Philippines, and other developing countries, they complain about different
things from people that write in European languages. For example, they very
often complain about the difficulty of writing in an encyclopedic style and
bridging the colloquial language that common people can read and the
standardized versions of the respective languages. This makes me think that
they were standardized in a way that is problematic for *actually* writing
an encyclopedia that would be useful to the general public.

A *massive* project for writing in a language, would create a critical mass
of people who would either make the general public accustomed to reading in
this standard language, or create a new de facto standard. But I guess that
none of the current Wikipedia projects in these languages have this
critical mass of writers.

A translation project, such as what Jon Erling Blad and Lane Rasberry are
suggesting in this thread *may* create such a critical mass. It also needs
bold leaders, who will take it upon themselves Languages that are developed
today went through periods of directed development in the past; Lomonosov
did it for Russian, Diderot did it for French, and so on. This can happen
today as well. (English went through this, too, although I'm not sure which
person should be tied to it: Isaac Newton? Samuel Johnson? John Harris
(Q562265)? Alfred the Great? Probably all of them to some degree.)

I'd even go further and say that I don't agree with Lane when he says that
the WMF cannot and will never pay for content. It sounds like a given thing
to some people, but it isn't. Quite the contrary; it's imaginable that a
careful and thoughtful project of this nature can be carried out by the WMF
itself. "WMF never does this" is not a rule, and it must not be a mental
blocker. I increasingly feel that the WMF is gradually, increasingly
understanding that different languages need different kinds of resources
and support, and this may include paid content creation. (Before you jump
to conclusions: I'm a WMF staff member, but please don't understand from
this that I know about some internal project to do such a thing, or that I
am suggesting to do this. Neither thing is true. I'm just writing a sincere
stream of consciousness about my opinions and feelings, and I might be
wrong about it all.)

That said, it does make more sense to me that organizations other than the
WMF should lead such work, perhaps with some WMF funding, for the sake of
thought diversity if for nothing else. But whether it's paid for by the WMF
directly, by Wikimedia chapters, by thematic interest groups, or by
somebody else is not the main issue. What is important, is that *local*
people and native speakers are as involved as possible in the content
creation, and that the list of topics to be translated is not too strongly
dictated.

(I also like the suggestion of translating from different languages. For
practical reasons, English is the most common translation source [1], but
translating from French, Russian, Chinese, or other languages, is awesome
for diversity—not just politically, but philosophically as well.)

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:CXStats


--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
‪“We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬

2018-02-24 14:51 GMT+02:00 John Erling Blad <[hidden email]>:

> This discussion is going to be fun! =D
>
> A little more than seventy Wikipedia-projects has more than 65k articles,
> the remaining two hundred or so are pretty small.
>
> What if a base set of articles were opened for paid translators? There are
> several lists of such base sets. We have both the thousand articles from
> "List of articles every Wikipedia should have"[1] and and the ten thousand
> articles from the expanded list[2].
>
> Lets say verified good translators was paid about $0.01 per word (about $1
> for a 1k-article) for translating one of those articles into another
> language, with perhaps a higher pay for contributors in high-cost
> countries. The pay would also have to be higher for languages that lacks
> good translation tools.
>
> I believe this would be an _enabling_ activity for the communities, as
> without a base set of articles it won't be possible to build a community at
> all. By not paying for new articles, and only translating well-referenced
> articles, some of the disputes in the communities could be avoided. Perhaps
> we should also identify good source articles, that would be a help.
> Translated articles should be above some minimum size, but they does not
> have to be full translations of the source article.
>
> A real problem is that our existing lists of good articles other projects
> should have is pretty much biased towards Western World, so they need a lot
> of adjustments. Perhaps such a project would identify our inherit bias?
>
> [1]
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_every_
> Wikipedia_should_have
> [2]
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_every_
> Wikipedia_should_have/Expanded
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

John Erling Blad
In reply to this post by Vi to
Sorry, but this does not make sense. The core articles apply globally.
There will although be articles in additions to a list of core articles,
but I don't try to advocate any of those lists as the one and only list.
Actually I have toyed with an idea of automatically create a list of core
articles, and that would identify important articles no matter if they are
from a big western language or a minority language.

The main problem is NOT that minority languages should have articles about
the major cities and important philosophers, *the main problem is that
minor languages can't get started because they lack content*!

On Sun, Feb 25, 2018 at 2:41 AM, Vi to <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Cultural appropriation is something different, by "forcing" the contents in
> a minority language we would actually be at risk of implementing a form of
> "cultural colonialism" which is the opposite of a cultural appropriation.
>
> NOTE: I refer to "the Western" in both cultural and "Wikipedian" sense: I
> mean cultures with a strong presence on the web plus developed and
> flourishing Wikipedia communities.
>
> Helping minority languages with funds/workforce is not bad in my opinion,
> but I think a bottom-up process must be followed, with the "bottom" being
> as closer as possible to relevant linguistic/cultural communities. A
> Wikipedia full of "what the Westerns think is important" in a minority
> non-Western language would definitely fail project scopes.
>
> This kind of problem almost does not arise with minority language
> associated to Western cultures since they share the same cultural
> backgrounds: back to my previous example the cultural background of
> Sicilian is substantially equal to Italian one. Still, as I already wrote,
> wikis in minority languages should focus on a certain aspect of wiki scope:
> Wiki has roughly two main scopes: 1) sharing knowledge in a certain
> language 2) also preserving the cultural heritage associated with different
> languages. For languages mainly spoken as first language the "sharing
> knowledge" aspect is predominant, while the second should take precedence
> in languages whose speakers are native speakers of a "bigger" language.
>
> Vito
>
> 2018-02-24 22:58 GMT+01:00 John Erling Blad <[hidden email]>:
>
> > Seems like this is mostly about cultural ownership and appropriation. Not
> > sure if it is possible to agree on this.
> >
> > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 6:08 PM, Vi to <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > I'll reply to the most recent email just for laziness.
> > >
> > > I'm doubtful for a series of reasons, most of were already expressed
> in a
> > > better way by others:
> > > *a remuneration in terms of quantity will weaken the quality of
> > > translations unless there's a strong mechanism of quality verification
> > > requiring a quantity of resources comparable to translations
> themselves;
> > > *articles are the result of a long process which reflects cultural
> > identity
> > > of different communities, I'm not confident with transferring them to a
> > > different "weaker" cultures. My usage of "weaker" adjective only
> focuses
> > > about the strength of a cultural presence on the Internet;
> > > *articles to be translated are at high risk of reflecting the cultural
> > > identity (and biases) of the Western culture;
> > > *finally I think paid translators would hardly turn into stable
> > > Wikipedians.
> > >
> > > IMHO some paid editing may be better exploited in order to digitalise
> > texts
> > > of unrepresented cultures (wikisource) or preserving their vocabularies
> > > (wiktionary).
> > >
> > > Also those languages which are secondary for all their speakers should
> be
> > > dealt with in a different fashion. I, for one, am a native speaker of
> > > specific variant of Sicilian, Sicilian is a secondary language to any
> of
> > > its speakers. Honestly, I'd find pointless to read the biography of
> > > Leonardo da Vinci in Sicilian while I can find thousands of books about
> > him
> > > in Italian. Also I find this kind of translation creates a fake
> > "literary"
> > > language totally detached from reality: there's no "encaustic painting"
> > in
> > > Sicilian, still a Sicilian article about Leonardo will invent one.
> > >
> > > As a general principle we should always collect, rather than create,
> > > knowledge.
> > >
> > > Vito
> > >
> > > 2018-02-24 16:30 GMT+01:00 John Erling Blad <[hidden email]>:
> > >
> > > > My reply can be read as a bit more harsh than intended, it was
> merely a
> > > > statement about my present experience about translators in general.
> > > >
> > > > The problem with lack of contributors (and translators) in a
> > specialized
> > > > area is that there is a small community, and within this community
> some
> > > > kind of selection is made. Each time a selection is repeated the
> > > remaining
> > > > group shrinks. Specialize the selection sufficiently many times and
> > there
> > > > will be no contributors (or translators) left. It is simply a game of
> > > > probabilities. Thus, to make such a project work it must have a
> > > > sufficiently broad scope for the articles. Articles about public
> health
> > > > services will probably work even for a pretty small language group,
> but
> > > > specialized medical articles might create a problem. But then you
> find
> > > > a retired
> > > > orthopedic surgeon like Subas Chandra Rout…
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 4:04 PM, James Heilman <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I agree with John that it is very difficult to turn a translator
> > into a
> > > > new
> > > > > editor. I also agree with Jean-Philippe that it is key to have
> > > > involvement
> > > > > of the local projects and preferable if they lead the efforts. Of
> the
> > > > > languages we worked in only one explicitly requested not to be
> > > involved /
> > > > > have translations from TWB.
> > > > >
> > > > > James
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 7:59 AM, John Erling Blad <
> [hidden email]>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > You can turn it around; give added credits for translations from
> > > small
> > > > > > language projects and into the larger ones, that is a lot more
> > > > > interesting
> > > > > > than strictly translating from the larger language projects.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 3:55 PM, Jean-Philippe Béland <
> > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > I think the request for such projects should come from the
> > > concerned
> > > > > > > language projects, same for the list of articles. If not, in my
> > > > simple
> > > > > > > opinion, it is a form of coloniasm again.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Jean-Philippe Béland
> > > > > > > Vice President, Wikimedia Canada
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 9:40 AM John Erling Blad <
> > [hidden email]
> > > >
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Should have added that the remaining points are somewhat less
> > > > > > interesting
> > > > > > > > in this context. Preloading a set of articles is a bad idea,
> > the
> > > > > > > > translators should be able to chose for themselves. Articles
> > > should
> > > > > > also
> > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > pretty broad, not very narrow technical or medical, ie
> vertical
> > > > > > articles,
> > > > > > > > as the number of editors that can handle those will be pretty
> > > > small.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > In particular: Do not believe you can turn a teanslator into
> a
> > > new
> > > > > > > editor!
> > > > > > > > You can although turn an existing editor into a translator.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 3:34 PM, John Erling Blad <
> > > > [hidden email]>
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 1) You must start with high quality content and thus all
> > > articles
> > > > > are
> > > > > > > > >> extensively improved before being proposed for
> translation.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Note that to much pressure on "quality" can easily kill the
> > > > > project.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 3) The "Content Translation" tool developed by the WMF made
> > > > efforts
> > > > > > > more
> > > > > > > > >> efficient than handing around word documents. Would love
> to
> > > see
> > > > > that
> > > > > > > > tool
> > > > > > > > >> improved further such as having it support specific lists
> of
> > > > > > articles
> > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > >> are deemed ready for translation by certain groups. Would
> > also
> > > > > love
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > >> tool to have tracking metrics for these types of projects.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Didn't mention ContentTranslation, but it should be pretty
> > > > obvious.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 4) We used volunteer translators mostly associated with our
> > > > partner
> > > > > > > > >> Translators Without Borders. One issue we found was that
> > > > languages
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > >> which
> > > > > > > > >> their are lots of translators such as French, Spanish, and
> > > > Italian
> > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > >> is
> > > > > > > > >> often already at least some content on many of the topics
> in
> > > > > > question.
> > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > >> issue than becomes integration which needs an expert
> > > Wikipedia.
> > > > > And
> > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > >> languages in which we have little content there are often
> > few
> > > > > > > avaliable
> > > > > > > > >> volunteers.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I used projects below 65k articles as an example, as the
> > chance
> > > > of
> > > > > > > > > competing articles are pretty low.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 5) With respect to "paying per word" the problem is this
> > would
> > > > > > require
> > > > > > > > >> significant checks and balances to make sure people are
> > taking
> > > > the
> > > > > > > work
> > > > > > > > >> seriously and not simple using Google translate for the 70
> > or
> > > so
> > > > > > > > languages
> > > > > > > > >> in which it claims to work. We often had translations
> > undergo
> > > a
> > > > > > second
> > > > > > > > >> review and the volunteers at TWB have to pass certain
> tests
> > to
> > > > be
> > > > > > > > >> accepted.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I'n my original email I wrote "verified good translators".
> It
> > > is
> > > > as
> > > > > > > > > simple as "Has the editor contributed other articles at the
> > > > > project?"
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 2:26 PM, James Heilman <
> > > [hidden email]
> > > > >
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >> We learned a few things during the medical translation
> > project
> > > > > which
> > > > > > > > >> started back in 2011:
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> 1) You must start with high quality content and thus all
> > > > articles
> > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > >> extensively improved before being proposed for
> translation.
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> 2) A lot of languages want "less" content than is present
> on
> > > EN
> > > > > WP.
> > > > > > > Thus
> > > > > > > > >> we
> > > > > > > > >> moved to just improving and suggesting for translation the
> > > leads
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > >> English articles.
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> 3) The "Content Translation" tool developed by the WMF
> made
> > > > > efforts
> > > > > > > more
> > > > > > > > >> efficient than handing around word documents. Would love
> to
> > > see
> > > > > that
> > > > > > > > tool
> > > > > > > > >> improved further such as having it support specific lists
> of
> > > > > > articles
> > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > >> are deemed ready for translation by certain groups. Would
> > also
> > > > > love
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > >> tool to have tracking metrics for these types of projects.
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> 4) We used volunteer translators mostly associated with
> our
> > > > > partner
> > > > > > > > >> Translators Without Borders. One issue we found was that
> > > > languages
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > >> which
> > > > > > > > >> their are lots of translators such as French, Spanish, and
> > > > Italian
> > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > >> is
> > > > > > > > >> often already at least some content on many of the topics
> in
> > > > > > question.
> > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > >> issue than becomes integration which needs an expert
> > > Wikipedia.
> > > > > And
> > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > >> languages in which we have little content there are often
> > few
> > > > > > > avaliable
> > > > > > > > >> volunteers.
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> 5) With respect to "paying per word" the problem is this
> > would
> > > > > > require
> > > > > > > > >> significant checks and balances to make sure people are
> > taking
> > > > the
> > > > > > > work
> > > > > > > > >> seriously and not simple using Google translate for the 70
> > or
> > > so
> > > > > > > > languages
> > > > > > > > >> in which it claims to work. We often had translations
> > undergo
> > > a
> > > > > > second
> > > > > > > > >> review and the volunteers at TWB have to pass certain
> tests
> > to
> > > > be
> > > > > > > > >> accepted.
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> 6) I hired a coordinator for the translation project for a
> > > > couple
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > > >> years.
> > > > > > > > >> The translators at TWB did not want to become Wikipedians
> or
> > > > learn
> > > > > > how
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > >> use our systems. The coordinator created account like
> > > TransSW001
> > > > > > (one
> > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > >> each volunteer) and preloaded the article to be translated
> > > into
> > > > > > > Content
> > > > > > > > >> Translation. They than gave the volunteer translator the
> > user
> > > > name
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > >> password to the account.
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> 7) Were are we at now? There are currently just over 1,000
> > > leads
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > > >> articles that have been improved and are ready for
> > > translation.
> > > > > This
> > > > > > > > >> includes articles on the 440 medications that are on the
> WHO
> > > > > > Essential
> > > > > > > > >> List. We have worked a bit in some 100 languages. The
> > efforts
> > > > have
> > > > > > > > >> resulted
> > > > > > > > >> in more than 5 million works translated and integrated
> into
> > > > > > different
> > > > > > > > >> Wikipedias. The coordinator has unfortunately moved on to
> > his
> > > > real
> > > > > > job
> > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > >> teaching high school students.
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> 8) The project continues but at a slower pace than before.
> > The
> > > > > > > > Wikipedian
> > > > > > > > >> and retired orthopedic surgeon Subas Chandra Rout has
> > > basically
> > > > > > single
> > > > > > > > >> handedly translated nearly all 1,000 leads into Odia a
> > > language
> > > > > > spoken
> > > > > > > > by
> > > > > > > > >> 40 million people in Eastern India. The amazing thing is
> > that
> > > > for
> > > > > > many
> > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > >> these topics this is the first and only information online
> > > about
> > > > > it.
> > > > > > > > >> Google
> > > > > > > > >> translate does not even claim to work in this language.
> Our
> > > > > > > partnerships
> > > > > > > > >> with WMTW and medical school in Taipai continue to
> translate
> > > > into
> > > > > > > > Chinese.
> > > > > > > > >> There the students translate and than their translations
> are
> > > > > > reviewed
> > > > > > > by
> > > > > > > > >> their profs before being posted. They translate in groups
> > > using
> > > > > > > hackpad
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > >> make it more social.
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> I am currently working to re invigorate the project :-)
> > > > > > > > >> James
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 5:51 AM, John Erling Blad <
> > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> > This discussion is going to be fun! =D
> > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > >> > A little more than seventy Wikipedia-projects has more
> > than
> > > > 65k
> > > > > > > > >> articles,
> > > > > > > > >> > the remaining two hundred or so are pretty small.
> > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > >> > What if a base set of articles were opened for paid
> > > > translators?
> > > > > > > There
> > > > > > > > >> are
> > > > > > > > >> > several lists of such base sets. We have both the
> thousand
> > > > > > articles
> > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > >> > "List of articles every Wikipedia should have"[1] and
> and
> > > the
> > > > > ten
> > > > > > > > >> thousand
> > > > > > > > >> > articles from the expanded list[2].
> > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > >> > Lets say verified good translators was paid about $0.01
> > per
> > > > word
> > > > > > > > (about
> > > > > > > > >> $1
> > > > > > > > >> > for a 1k-article) for translating one of those articles
> > into
> > > > > > another
> > > > > > > > >> > language, with perhaps a higher pay for contributors in
> > > > > high-cost
> > > > > > > > >> > countries. The pay would also have to be higher for
> > > languages
> > > > > that
> > > > > > > > lacks
> > > > > > > > >> > good translation tools.
> > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > >> > I believe this would be an _enabling_ activity for the
> > > > > > communities,
> > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > >> > without a base set of articles it won't be possible to
> > > build a
> > > > > > > > >> community at
> > > > > > > > >> > all. By not paying for new articles, and only
> translating
> > > > > > > > >> well-referenced
> > > > > > > > >> > articles, some of the disputes in the communities could
> be
> > > > > > avoided.
> > > > > > > > >> Perhaps
> > > > > > > > >> > we should also identify good source articles, that would
> > be
> > > a
> > > > > > help.
> > > > > > > > >> > Translated articles should be above some minimum size,
> but
> > > > they
> > > > > > does
> > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > >> > have to be full translations of the source article.
> > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > >> > A real problem is that our existing lists of good
> articles
> > > > other
> > > > > > > > >> projects
> > > > > > > > >> > should have is pretty much biased towards Western World,
> > so
> > > > they
> > > > > > > need
> > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > >> lot
> > > > > > > > >> > of adjustments. Perhaps such a project would identify
> our
> > > > > inherit
> > > > > > > > bias?
> > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > >> > [1]
> > > > > > > > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_every_
> > > > > > > > >> > Wikipedia_should_have
> > > > > > > > >> > [2]
> > > > > > > > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_every_
> > > > > > > > >> > Wikipedia_should_have/Expanded
> > > > > > > > >> > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > >> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > > > > >> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > > > > >> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > > > >> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > >> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > > > mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > > > > > > > ,
> > > > > > > > >> > <mailto:[hidden email]
> ?subject=
> > > > > > > unsubscribe>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> --
> > > > > > > > >> James Heilman
> > > > > > > > >> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> > > > > > > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
> > > > > > > > >> i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

Vi to
Any "global" list reflects (and I fear it will always reflect) the
Weltanschauung of those cultures which are stronger on the web.

I'm deeply concerned about cultures being eaten up by globalization but
attempts to preserve them should take into account the risk of ending up
preserving just "our" view of these cultures.

I also agree with WereSpielChequers' comments about mixing paid and unpaid
editing. What I think it can be done is a system of prizes/contests (maybe
evaluated by paid experts) focused on attracting people on Wikisource and
Wiktionaries, Wikipedia can follow if a critical mass is eventually reached.

Vito

2018-02-25 15:16 GMT+01:00 John Erling Blad <[hidden email]>:

> Sorry, but this does not make sense. The core articles apply globally.
> There will although be articles in additions to a list of core articles,
> but I don't try to advocate any of those lists as the one and only list.
> Actually I have toyed with an idea of automatically create a list of core
> articles, and that would identify important articles no matter if they are
> from a big western language or a minority language.
>
> The main problem is NOT that minority languages should have articles about
> the major cities and important philosophers, *the main problem is that
> minor languages can't get started because they lack content*!
>
> On Sun, Feb 25, 2018 at 2:41 AM, Vi to <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Cultural appropriation is something different, by "forcing" the contents
> in
> > a minority language we would actually be at risk of implementing a form
> of
> > "cultural colonialism" which is the opposite of a cultural appropriation.
> >
> > NOTE: I refer to "the Western" in both cultural and "Wikipedian" sense: I
> > mean cultures with a strong presence on the web plus developed and
> > flourishing Wikipedia communities.
> >
> > Helping minority languages with funds/workforce is not bad in my opinion,
> > but I think a bottom-up process must be followed, with the "bottom" being
> > as closer as possible to relevant linguistic/cultural communities. A
> > Wikipedia full of "what the Westerns think is important" in a minority
> > non-Western language would definitely fail project scopes.
> >
> > This kind of problem almost does not arise with minority language
> > associated to Western cultures since they share the same cultural
> > backgrounds: back to my previous example the cultural background of
> > Sicilian is substantially equal to Italian one. Still, as I already
> wrote,
> > wikis in minority languages should focus on a certain aspect of wiki
> scope:
> > Wiki has roughly two main scopes: 1) sharing knowledge in a certain
> > language 2) also preserving the cultural heritage associated with
> different
> > languages. For languages mainly spoken as first language the "sharing
> > knowledge" aspect is predominant, while the second should take precedence
> > in languages whose speakers are native speakers of a "bigger" language.
> >
> > Vito
> >
> > 2018-02-24 22:58 GMT+01:00 John Erling Blad <[hidden email]>:
> >
> > > Seems like this is mostly about cultural ownership and appropriation.
> Not
> > > sure if it is possible to agree on this.
> > >
> > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 6:08 PM, Vi to <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I'll reply to the most recent email just for laziness.
> > > >
> > > > I'm doubtful for a series of reasons, most of were already expressed
> > in a
> > > > better way by others:
> > > > *a remuneration in terms of quantity will weaken the quality of
> > > > translations unless there's a strong mechanism of quality
> verification
> > > > requiring a quantity of resources comparable to translations
> > themselves;
> > > > *articles are the result of a long process which reflects cultural
> > > identity
> > > > of different communities, I'm not confident with transferring them
> to a
> > > > different "weaker" cultures. My usage of "weaker" adjective only
> > focuses
> > > > about the strength of a cultural presence on the Internet;
> > > > *articles to be translated are at high risk of reflecting the
> cultural
> > > > identity (and biases) of the Western culture;
> > > > *finally I think paid translators would hardly turn into stable
> > > > Wikipedians.
> > > >
> > > > IMHO some paid editing may be better exploited in order to digitalise
> > > texts
> > > > of unrepresented cultures (wikisource) or preserving their
> vocabularies
> > > > (wiktionary).
> > > >
> > > > Also those languages which are secondary for all their speakers
> should
> > be
> > > > dealt with in a different fashion. I, for one, am a native speaker of
> > > > specific variant of Sicilian, Sicilian is a secondary language to any
> > of
> > > > its speakers. Honestly, I'd find pointless to read the biography of
> > > > Leonardo da Vinci in Sicilian while I can find thousands of books
> about
> > > him
> > > > in Italian. Also I find this kind of translation creates a fake
> > > "literary"
> > > > language totally detached from reality: there's no "encaustic
> painting"
> > > in
> > > > Sicilian, still a Sicilian article about Leonardo will invent one.
> > > >
> > > > As a general principle we should always collect, rather than create,
> > > > knowledge.
> > > >
> > > > Vito
> > > >
> > > > 2018-02-24 16:30 GMT+01:00 John Erling Blad <[hidden email]>:
> > > >
> > > > > My reply can be read as a bit more harsh than intended, it was
> > merely a
> > > > > statement about my present experience about translators in general.
> > > > >
> > > > > The problem with lack of contributors (and translators) in a
> > > specialized
> > > > > area is that there is a small community, and within this community
> > some
> > > > > kind of selection is made. Each time a selection is repeated the
> > > > remaining
> > > > > group shrinks. Specialize the selection sufficiently many times and
> > > there
> > > > > will be no contributors (or translators) left. It is simply a game
> of
> > > > > probabilities. Thus, to make such a project work it must have a
> > > > > sufficiently broad scope for the articles. Articles about public
> > health
> > > > > services will probably work even for a pretty small language group,
> > but
> > > > > specialized medical articles might create a problem. But then you
> > find
> > > > > a retired
> > > > > orthopedic surgeon like Subas Chandra Rout…
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 4:04 PM, James Heilman <[hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > I agree with John that it is very difficult to turn a translator
> > > into a
> > > > > new
> > > > > > editor. I also agree with Jean-Philippe that it is key to have
> > > > > involvement
> > > > > > of the local projects and preferable if they lead the efforts. Of
> > the
> > > > > > languages we worked in only one explicitly requested not to be
> > > > involved /
> > > > > > have translations from TWB.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > James
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 7:59 AM, John Erling Blad <
> > [hidden email]>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > You can turn it around; give added credits for translations
> from
> > > > small
> > > > > > > language projects and into the larger ones, that is a lot more
> > > > > > interesting
> > > > > > > than strictly translating from the larger language projects.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 3:55 PM, Jean-Philippe Béland <
> > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I think the request for such projects should come from the
> > > > concerned
> > > > > > > > language projects, same for the list of articles. If not, in
> my
> > > > > simple
> > > > > > > > opinion, it is a form of coloniasm again.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Jean-Philippe Béland
> > > > > > > > Vice President, Wikimedia Canada
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 9:40 AM John Erling Blad <
> > > [hidden email]
> > > > >
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Should have added that the remaining points are somewhat
> less
> > > > > > > interesting
> > > > > > > > > in this context. Preloading a set of articles is a bad
> idea,
> > > the
> > > > > > > > > translators should be able to chose for themselves.
> Articles
> > > > should
> > > > > > > also
> > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > pretty broad, not very narrow technical or medical, ie
> > vertical
> > > > > > > articles,
> > > > > > > > > as the number of editors that can handle those will be
> pretty
> > > > > small.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > In particular: Do not believe you can turn a teanslator
> into
> > a
> > > > new
> > > > > > > > editor!
> > > > > > > > > You can although turn an existing editor into a translator.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 3:34 PM, John Erling Blad <
> > > > > [hidden email]>
> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > 1) You must start with high quality content and thus all
> > > > articles
> > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > >> extensively improved before being proposed for
> > translation.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Note that to much pressure on "quality" can easily kill
> the
> > > > > > project.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > 3) The "Content Translation" tool developed by the WMF
> made
> > > > > efforts
> > > > > > > > more
> > > > > > > > > >> efficient than handing around word documents. Would love
> > to
> > > > see
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > tool
> > > > > > > > > >> improved further such as having it support specific
> lists
> > of
> > > > > > > articles
> > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > >> are deemed ready for translation by certain groups.
> Would
> > > also
> > > > > > love
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > >> tool to have tracking metrics for these types of
> projects.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Didn't mention ContentTranslation, but it should be
> pretty
> > > > > obvious.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > 4) We used volunteer translators mostly associated with
> our
> > > > > partner
> > > > > > > > > >> Translators Without Borders. One issue we found was that
> > > > > languages
> > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > >> which
> > > > > > > > > >> their are lots of translators such as French, Spanish,
> and
> > > > > Italian
> > > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > >> is
> > > > > > > > > >> often already at least some content on many of the
> topics
> > in
> > > > > > > question.
> > > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > >> issue than becomes integration which needs an expert
> > > > Wikipedia.
> > > > > > And
> > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > >> languages in which we have little content there are
> often
> > > few
> > > > > > > > avaliable
> > > > > > > > > >> volunteers.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I used projects below 65k articles as an example, as the
> > > chance
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > competing articles are pretty low.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > 5) With respect to "paying per word" the problem is this
> > > would
> > > > > > > require
> > > > > > > > > >> significant checks and balances to make sure people are
> > > taking
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > work
> > > > > > > > > >> seriously and not simple using Google translate for the
> 70
> > > or
> > > > so
> > > > > > > > > languages
> > > > > > > > > >> in which it claims to work. We often had translations
> > > undergo
> > > > a
> > > > > > > second
> > > > > > > > > >> review and the volunteers at TWB have to pass certain
> > tests
> > > to
> > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > >> accepted.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I'n my original email I wrote "verified good
> translators".
> > It
> > > > is
> > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > simple as "Has the editor contributed other articles at
> the
> > > > > > project?"
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 2:26 PM, James Heilman <
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >> We learned a few things during the medical translation
> > > project
> > > > > > which
> > > > > > > > > >> started back in 2011:
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> 1) You must start with high quality content and thus all
> > > > > articles
> > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > >> extensively improved before being proposed for
> > translation.
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> 2) A lot of languages want "less" content than is
> present
> > on
> > > > EN
> > > > > > WP.
> > > > > > > > Thus
> > > > > > > > > >> we
> > > > > > > > > >> moved to just improving and suggesting for translation
> the
> > > > leads
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > >> English articles.
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> 3) The "Content Translation" tool developed by the WMF
> > made
> > > > > > efforts
> > > > > > > > more
> > > > > > > > > >> efficient than handing around word documents. Would love
> > to
> > > > see
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > tool
> > > > > > > > > >> improved further such as having it support specific
> lists
> > of
> > > > > > > articles
> > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > >> are deemed ready for translation by certain groups.
> Would
> > > also
> > > > > > love
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > >> tool to have tracking metrics for these types of
> projects.
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> 4) We used volunteer translators mostly associated with
> > our
> > > > > > partner
> > > > > > > > > >> Translators Without Borders. One issue we found was that
> > > > > languages
> > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > >> which
> > > > > > > > > >> their are lots of translators such as French, Spanish,
> and
> > > > > Italian
> > > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > >> is
> > > > > > > > > >> often already at least some content on many of the
> topics
> > in
> > > > > > > question.
> > > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > >> issue than becomes integration which needs an expert
> > > > Wikipedia.
> > > > > > And
> > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > >> languages in which we have little content there are
> often
> > > few
> > > > > > > > avaliable
> > > > > > > > > >> volunteers.
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> 5) With respect to "paying per word" the problem is this
> > > would
> > > > > > > require
> > > > > > > > > >> significant checks and balances to make sure people are
> > > taking
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > work
> > > > > > > > > >> seriously and not simple using Google translate for the
> 70
> > > or
> > > > so
> > > > > > > > > languages
> > > > > > > > > >> in which it claims to work. We often had translations
> > > undergo
> > > > a
> > > > > > > second
> > > > > > > > > >> review and the volunteers at TWB have to pass certain
> > tests
> > > to
> > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > >> accepted.
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> 6) I hired a coordinator for the translation project
> for a
> > > > > couple
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > >> years.
> > > > > > > > > >> The translators at TWB did not want to become
> Wikipedians
> > or
> > > > > learn
> > > > > > > how
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > >> use our systems. The coordinator created account like
> > > > TransSW001
> > > > > > > (one
> > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > >> each volunteer) and preloaded the article to be
> translated
> > > > into
> > > > > > > > Content
> > > > > > > > > >> Translation. They than gave the volunteer translator the
> > > user
> > > > > name
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > >> password to the account.
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> 7) Were are we at now? There are currently just over
> 1,000
> > > > leads
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > >> articles that have been improved and are ready for
> > > > translation.
> > > > > > This
> > > > > > > > > >> includes articles on the 440 medications that are on the
> > WHO
> > > > > > > Essential
> > > > > > > > > >> List. We have worked a bit in some 100 languages. The
> > > efforts
> > > > > have
> > > > > > > > > >> resulted
> > > > > > > > > >> in more than 5 million works translated and integrated
> > into
> > > > > > > different
> > > > > > > > > >> Wikipedias. The coordinator has unfortunately moved on
> to
> > > his
> > > > > real
> > > > > > > job
> > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > >> teaching high school students.
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> 8) The project continues but at a slower pace than
> before.
> > > The
> > > > > > > > > Wikipedian
> > > > > > > > > >> and retired orthopedic surgeon Subas Chandra Rout has
> > > > basically
> > > > > > > single
> > > > > > > > > >> handedly translated nearly all 1,000 leads into Odia a
> > > > language
> > > > > > > spoken
> > > > > > > > > by
> > > > > > > > > >> 40 million people in Eastern India. The amazing thing is
> > > that
> > > > > for
> > > > > > > many
> > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > >> these topics this is the first and only information
> online
> > > > about
> > > > > > it.
> > > > > > > > > >> Google
> > > > > > > > > >> translate does not even claim to work in this language.
> > Our
> > > > > > > > partnerships
> > > > > > > > > >> with WMTW and medical school in Taipai continue to
> > translate
> > > > > into
> > > > > > > > > Chinese.
> > > > > > > > > >> There the students translate and than their translations
> > are
> > > > > > > reviewed
> > > > > > > > by
> > > > > > > > > >> their profs before being posted. They translate in
> groups
> > > > using
> > > > > > > > hackpad
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > >> make it more social.
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> I am currently working to re invigorate the project :-)
> > > > > > > > > >> James
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 5:51 AM, John Erling Blad <
> > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> > This discussion is going to be fun! =D
> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > >> > A little more than seventy Wikipedia-projects has more
> > > than
> > > > > 65k
> > > > > > > > > >> articles,
> > > > > > > > > >> > the remaining two hundred or so are pretty small.
> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > >> > What if a base set of articles were opened for paid
> > > > > translators?
> > > > > > > > There
> > > > > > > > > >> are
> > > > > > > > > >> > several lists of such base sets. We have both the
> > thousand
> > > > > > > articles
> > > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > >> > "List of articles every Wikipedia should have"[1] and
> > and
> > > > the
> > > > > > ten
> > > > > > > > > >> thousand
> > > > > > > > > >> > articles from the expanded list[2].
> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > >> > Lets say verified good translators was paid about
> $0.01
> > > per
> > > > > word
> > > > > > > > > (about
> > > > > > > > > >> $1
> > > > > > > > > >> > for a 1k-article) for translating one of those
> articles
> > > into
> > > > > > > another
> > > > > > > > > >> > language, with perhaps a higher pay for contributors
> in
> > > > > > high-cost
> > > > > > > > > >> > countries. The pay would also have to be higher for
> > > > languages
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > lacks
> > > > > > > > > >> > good translation tools.
> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > >> > I believe this would be an _enabling_ activity for the
> > > > > > > communities,
> > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > >> > without a base set of articles it won't be possible to
> > > > build a
> > > > > > > > > >> community at
> > > > > > > > > >> > all. By not paying for new articles, and only
> > translating
> > > > > > > > > >> well-referenced
> > > > > > > > > >> > articles, some of the disputes in the communities
> could
> > be
> > > > > > > avoided.
> > > > > > > > > >> Perhaps
> > > > > > > > > >> > we should also identify good source articles, that
> would
> > > be
> > > > a
> > > > > > > help.
> > > > > > > > > >> > Translated articles should be above some minimum size,
> > but
> > > > > they
> > > > > > > does
> > > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > >> > have to be full translations of the source article.
> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > >> > A real problem is that our existing lists of good
> > articles
> > > > > other
> > > > > > > > > >> projects
> > > > > > > > > >> > should have is pretty much biased towards Western
> World,
> > > so
> > > > > they
> > > > > > > > need
> > > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > >> lot
> > > > > > > > > >> > of adjustments. Perhaps such a project would identify
> > our
> > > > > > inherit
> > > > > > > > > bias?
> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > >> > [1]
> > > > > > > > > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/List_of_articles_every_
> > > > > > > > > >> > Wikipedia_should_have
> > > > > > > > > >> > [2]
> > > > > > > > > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/List_of_articles_every_
> > > > > > > > > >> > Wikipedia_should_have/Expanded
> > > > > > > > > >> > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > >> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/
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> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/
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> > > > > > > > > >> --
> > > > > > > > > >> James Heilman
> > > > > > > > > >> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> > > > > > > > > >> _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

John Erling Blad
In reply to this post by WereSpielChequers-2
Not sure what you mean by common search terms, but if it is about direct
translation of search terms to get good SEO ranking it is outside what I'm
talking about. That area will vanish completely in a coupe of years.

I've replied about medical articles previously, and why this isn't an area
where it is easy to translate articles.

I agree to both of your bullet points, but note that for point 1, creating
a core set of articles are necessary to attract interest to the project.
There are some weird ideas that these kind of projects emerge from nothing,
but it is a lot of really hard work to start them. Without a base set of
articles the projects does not attract readers, and without readers no
contributors, and without contributors no articles.

The main problem isn't the "cultural colonialism" or "cultural
appropriation" BS, it is lack of articles and thus non-existing communities.

On Sun, Feb 25, 2018 at 12:10 PM, Jonathan Cardy <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> There were two presentations on paid translation at Wikimania in Gdansk. I
> think that would be 2010? One by Google.org, the other by Google.com
> (charity and corporate wings).
>
> I'm afraid my memory of the event is far from perfect. But some things
> stuck in my mind.
>
> As one would expect, many of the things that could go wrong had gone wrong.
>
> Translators were not recruited from the community and did not understand
> the need to interact with the community.
>
> The aims of the two projects were very different. .org wanted to make
> basic medical info available in a number of languages that were emerging on
> the Internet; .com wanted to give responses to common search terms in those
> languages. Bangla, Tamil and I think Telegu were among them.
>
> One, I think it was Bangla had banned a group of translators, on another
> an irate attendee explained that people who spoke his language did not want
> articles on Hollywood film stars: I suspect that shows a disconnect between
> search engine results and the wishes of wikipedians, it illustrates the
> concerns others have already raised re colonialism, and the difficulty of
> mixing volunteers and paid staff in one project.
>
> No surprise that one of the two projects was much more contentious than
> the other, and not just among Wikipedians on the target project. I can
> understand the frustration of a wikipedian volunteer who realises he is
> fixing for free work that someone else has been paid to do.
>
> I don't know whether the concern about Hollywood was just an inter
> generational thing, whether the people with access tohollywood films were
> representative of the young, or representative of the tech savvy verbally
> bilingual early adopters in that society and unrepresentative of the tens
> of millions in that language who were about to come online.
>
> But I do remember the "common search term" project being much more
> contentious than the medical one.
>
> My experience from here and several other part volunteer communities is
> that there are two golden rules to follow when mixing paid and unpaid staff.
>
> 1 Only pay people to do things that the volunteers want to have happen but
> aren't volunteering to do.
> 2 As much as possible recruit your paid staff from your community of
> volunteers.
>
> Sadly almost all my examples of getting this wrong come from this movement.
>
> Regards
>
> Jonathan / WereSpielChequers
>
>
> > On 24 Feb 2018, at 19:41, [hidden email] wrote:
> >
> > Send Wikimedia-l mailing list submissions to
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> >
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> > Today's Topics:
> >
> >  1. Re: Paid translation (Gnangarra)
> >  2. Re: Paid translation (Michael Snow)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 03:05:41 +0800
> > From: Gnangarra <[hidden email]>
> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List <[hidden email]>
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation
> > Message-ID:
> >   <CAD==kb+-mr3+rBBYC=[hidden email]>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> >
> > this would be a good practical exercise to develop for WiR / WikiEd
> > programs in universities where they can engage with International
> Students
> > and local students studying additional languages as means of learning the
> > written nuances of the individual languages.  Any funding would be better
> > utilised in enabling such programs where the flow on impact is more
> > likely{fact} to be lasting.  Though I can see value in using a
> gift/reward
> > system for technically disadvantaged communities like the case presented
> > about Swahili .    The focus would need to be on basic health, hygiene,
> > biology, science topics rather than more social or political topics.
> >
> >> On 25 February 2018 at 01:08, Vi to <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>
> >> I'll reply to the most recent email just for laziness.
> >>
> >> I'm doubtful for a series of reasons, most of were already expressed in
> a
> >> better way by others:
> >> *a remuneration in terms of quantity will weaken the quality of
> >> translations unless there's a strong mechanism of quality verification
> >> requiring a quantity of resources comparable to translations themselves;
> >> *articles are the result of a long process which reflects cultural
> identity
> >> of different communities, I'm not confident with transferring them to a
> >> different "weaker" cultures. My usage of "weaker" adjective only focuses
> >> about the strength of a cultural presence on the Internet;
> >> *articles to be translated are at high risk of reflecting the cultural
> >> identity (and biases) of the Western culture;
> >> *finally I think paid translators would hardly turn into stable
> >> Wikipedians.
> >>
> >> IMHO some paid editing may be better exploited in order to digitalise
> texts
> >> of unrepresented cultures (wikisource) or preserving their vocabularies
> >> (wiktionary).
> >>
> >> Also those languages which are secondary for all their speakers should
> be
> >> dealt with in a different fashion. I, for one, am a native speaker of
> >> specific variant of Sicilian, Sicilian is a secondary language to any of
> >> its speakers. Honestly, I'd find pointless to read the biography of
> >> Leonardo da Vinci in Sicilian while I can find thousands of books about
> him
> >> in Italian. Also I find this kind of translation creates a fake
> "literary"
> >> language totally detached from reality: there's no "encaustic painting"
> in
> >> Sicilian, still a Sicilian article about Leonardo will invent one.
> >>
> >> As a general principle we should always collect, rather than create,
> >> knowledge.
> >>
> >> Vito
> >>
> >> 2018-02-24 16:30 GMT+01:00 John Erling Blad <[hidden email]>:
> >>
> >>> My reply can be read as a bit more harsh than intended, it was merely a
> >>> statement about my present experience about translators in general.
> >>>
> >>> The problem with lack of contributors (and translators) in a
> specialized
> >>> area is that there is a small community, and within this community some
> >>> kind of selection is made. Each time a selection is repeated the
> >> remaining
> >>> group shrinks. Specialize the selection sufficiently many times and
> there
> >>> will be no contributors (or translators) left. It is simply a game of
> >>> probabilities. Thus, to make such a project work it must have a
> >>> sufficiently broad scope for the articles. Articles about public health
> >>> services will probably work even for a pretty small language group, but
> >>> specialized medical articles might create a problem. But then you find
> >>> a retired
> >>> orthopedic surgeon like Subas Chandra Rout…
> >>>
> >>>> On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 4:04 PM, James Heilman <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> I agree with John that it is very difficult to turn a translator into
> a
> >>> new
> >>>> editor. I also agree with Jean-Philippe that it is key to have
> >>> involvement
> >>>> of the local projects and preferable if they lead the efforts. Of the
> >>>> languages we worked in only one explicitly requested not to be
> >> involved /
> >>>> have translations from TWB.
> >>>>
> >>>> James
> >>>>
> >>>> On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 7:59 AM, John Erling Blad <[hidden email]>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> You can turn it around; give added credits for translations from
> >> small
> >>>>> language projects and into the larger ones, that is a lot more
> >>>> interesting
> >>>>> than strictly translating from the larger language projects.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 3:55 PM, Jean-Philippe Béland <
> >>>>> [hidden email]
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> I think the request for such projects should come from the
> >> concerned
> >>>>>> language projects, same for the list of articles. If not, in my
> >>> simple
> >>>>>> opinion, it is a form of coloniasm again.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Jean-Philippe Béland
> >>>>>> Vice President, Wikimedia Canada
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 9:40 AM John Erling Blad <[hidden email]
> >>>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Should have added that the remaining points are somewhat less
> >>>>> interesting
> >>>>>>> in this context. Preloading a set of articles is a bad idea, the
> >>>>>>> translators should be able to chose for themselves. Articles
> >> should
> >>>>> also
> >>>>>> be
> >>>>>>> pretty broad, not very narrow technical or medical, ie vertical
> >>>>> articles,
> >>>>>>> as the number of editors that can handle those will be pretty
> >>> small.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> In particular: Do not believe you can turn a teanslator into a
> >> new
> >>>>>> editor!
> >>>>>>> You can although turn an existing editor into a translator.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 3:34 PM, John Erling Blad <
> >>> [hidden email]>
> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> 1) You must start with high quality content and thus all
> >> articles
> >>>> are
> >>>>>>>>> extensively improved before being proposed for translation.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Note that to much pressure on "quality" can easily kill the
> >>>> project.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> 3) The "Content Translation" tool developed by the WMF made
> >>> efforts
> >>>>>> more
> >>>>>>>>> efficient than handing around word documents. Would love to
> >> see
> >>>> that
> >>>>>>> tool
> >>>>>>>>> improved further such as having it support specific lists of
> >>>>> articles
> >>>>>>> that
> >>>>>>>>> are deemed ready for translation by certain groups. Would also
> >>>> love
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>> tool to have tracking metrics for these types of projects.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Didn't mention ContentTranslation, but it should be pretty
> >>> obvious.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> 4) We used volunteer translators mostly associated with our
> >>> partner
> >>>>>>>>> Translators Without Borders. One issue we found was that
> >>> languages
> >>>>> in
> >>>>>>>>> which
> >>>>>>>>> their are lots of translators such as French, Spanish, and
> >>> Italian
> >>>>>> there
> >>>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>> often already at least some content on many of the topics in
> >>>>> question.
> >>>>>>> The
> >>>>>>>>> issue than becomes integration which needs an expert
> >> Wikipedia.
> >>>> And
> >>>>>> for
> >>>>>>>>> languages in which we have little content there are often few
> >>>>>> avaliable
> >>>>>>>>> volunteers.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I used projects below 65k articles as an example, as the chance
> >>> of
> >>>>>>>> competing articles are pretty low.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> 5) With respect to "paying per word" the problem is this would
> >>>>> require
> >>>>>>>>> significant checks and balances to make sure people are taking
> >>> the
> >>>>>> work
> >>>>>>>>> seriously and not simple using Google translate for the 70 or
> >> so
> >>>>>>> languages
> >>>>>>>>> in which it claims to work. We often had translations undergo
> >> a
> >>>>> second
> >>>>>>>>> review and the volunteers at TWB have to pass certain tests to
> >>> be
> >>>>>>>>> accepted.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I'n my original email I wrote "verified good translators". It
> >> is
> >>> as
> >>>>>>>> simple as "Has the editor contributed other articles at the
> >>>> project?"
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 2:26 PM, James Heilman <
> >> [hidden email]
> >>>>
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> We learned a few things during the medical translation project
> >>>> which
> >>>>>>>>> started back in 2011:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> 1) You must start with high quality content and thus all
> >>> articles
> >>>>> are
> >>>>>>>>> extensively improved before being proposed for translation.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> 2) A lot of languages want "less" content than is present on
> >> EN
> >>>> WP.
> >>>>>> Thus
> >>>>>>>>> we
> >>>>>>>>> moved to just improving and suggesting for translation the
> >> leads
> >>>> of
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>> English articles.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> 3) The "Content Translation" tool developed by the WMF made
> >>>> efforts
> >>>>>> more
> >>>>>>>>> efficient than handing around word documents. Would love to
> >> see
> >>>> that
> >>>>>>> tool
> >>>>>>>>> improved further such as having it support specific lists of
> >>>>> articles
> >>>>>>> that
> >>>>>>>>> are deemed ready for translation by certain groups. Would also
> >>>> love
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>> tool to have tracking metrics for these types of projects.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> 4) We used volunteer translators mostly associated with our
> >>>> partner
> >>>>>>>>> Translators Without Borders. One issue we found was that
> >>> languages
> >>>>> in
> >>>>>>>>> which
> >>>>>>>>> their are lots of translators such as French, Spanish, and
> >>> Italian
> >>>>>> there
> >>>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>> often already at least some content on many of the topics in
> >>>>> question.
> >>>>>>> The
> >>>>>>>>> issue than becomes integration which needs an expert
> >> Wikipedia.
> >>>> And
> >>>>>> for
> >>>>>>>>> languages in which we have little content there are often few
> >>>>>> avaliable
> >>>>>>>>> volunteers.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> 5) With respect to "paying per word" the problem is this would
> >>>>> require
> >>>>>>>>> significant checks and balances to make sure people are taking
> >>> the
> >>>>>> work
> >>>>>>>>> seriously and not simple using Google translate for the 70 or
> >> so
> >>>>>>> languages
> >>>>>>>>> in which it claims to work. We often had translations undergo
> >> a
> >>>>> second
> >>>>>>>>> review and the volunteers at TWB have to pass certain tests to
> >>> be
> >>>>>>>>> accepted.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> 6) I hired a coordinator for the translation project for a
> >>> couple
> >>>> of
> >>>>>>>>> years.
> >>>>>>>>> The translators at TWB did not want to become Wikipedians or
> >>> learn
> >>>>> how
> >>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>> use our systems. The coordinator created account like
> >> TransSW001
> >>>>> (one
> >>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>>>> each volunteer) and preloaded the article to be translated
> >> into
> >>>>>> Content
> >>>>>>>>> Translation. They than gave the volunteer translator the user
> >>> name
> >>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>> password to the account.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> 7) Were are we at now? There are currently just over 1,000
> >> leads
> >>>> of
> >>>>>>>>> articles that have been improved and are ready for
> >> translation.
> >>>> This
> >>>>>>>>> includes articles on the 440 medications that are on the WHO
> >>>>> Essential
> >>>>>>>>> List. We have worked a bit in some 100 languages. The efforts
> >>> have
> >>>>>>>>> resulted
> >>>>>>>>> in more than 5 million works translated and integrated into
> >>>>> different
> >>>>>>>>> Wikipedias. The coordinator has unfortunately moved on to his
> >>> real
> >>>>> job
> >>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>> teaching high school students.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> 8) The project continues but at a slower pace than before. The
> >>>>>>> Wikipedian
> >>>>>>>>> and retired orthopedic surgeon Subas Chandra Rout has
> >> basically
> >>>>> single
> >>>>>>>>> handedly translated nearly all 1,000 leads into Odia a
> >> language
> >>>>> spoken
> >>>>>>> by
> >>>>>>>>> 40 million people in Eastern India. The amazing thing is that
> >>> for
> >>>>> many
> >>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>> these topics this is the first and only information online
> >> about
> >>>> it.
> >>>>>>>>> Google
> >>>>>>>>> translate does not even claim to work in this language. Our
> >>>>>> partnerships
> >>>>>>>>> with WMTW and medical school in Taipai continue to translate
> >>> into
> >>>>>>> Chinese.
> >>>>>>>>> There the students translate and than their translations are
> >>>>> reviewed
> >>>>>> by
> >>>>>>>>> their profs before being posted. They translate in groups
> >> using
> >>>>>> hackpad
> >>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>> make it more social.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I am currently working to re invigorate the project :-)
> >>>>>>>>> James
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 5:51 AM, John Erling Blad <
> >>>> [hidden email]
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> This discussion is going to be fun! =D
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> A little more than seventy Wikipedia-projects has more than
> >>> 65k
> >>>>>>>>> articles,
> >>>>>>>>>> the remaining two hundred or so are pretty small.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> What if a base set of articles were opened for paid
> >>> translators?
> >>>>>> There
> >>>>>>>>> are
> >>>>>>>>>> several lists of such base sets. We have both the thousand
> >>>>> articles
> >>>>>>> from
> >>>>>>>>>> "List of articles every Wikipedia should have"[1] and and
> >> the
> >>>> ten
> >>>>>>>>> thousand
> >>>>>>>>>> articles from the expanded list[2].
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Lets say verified good translators was paid about $0.01 per
> >>> word
> >>>>>>> (about
> >>>>>>>>> $1
> >>>>>>>>>> for a 1k-article) for translating one of those articles into
> >>>>> another
> >>>>>>>>>> language, with perhaps a higher pay for contributors in
> >>>> high-cost
> >>>>>>>>>> countries. The pay would also have to be higher for
> >> languages
> >>>> that
> >>>>>>> lacks
> >>>>>>>>>> good translation tools.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I believe this would be an _enabling_ activity for the
> >>>>> communities,
> >>>>>> as
> >>>>>>>>>> without a base set of articles it won't be possible to
> >> build a
> >>>>>>>>> community at
> >>>>>>>>>> all. By not paying for new articles, and only translating
> >>>>>>>>> well-referenced
> >>>>>>>>>> articles, some of the disputes in the communities could be
> >>>>> avoided.
> >>>>>>>>> Perhaps
> >>>>>>>>>> we should also identify good source articles, that would be
> >> a
> >>>>> help.
> >>>>>>>>>> Translated articles should be above some minimum size, but
> >>> they
> >>>>> does
> >>>>>>> not
> >>>>>>>>>> have to be full translations of the source article.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> A real problem is that our existing lists of good articles
> >>> other
> >>>>>>>>> projects
> >>>>>>>>>> should have is pretty much biased towards Western World, so
> >>> they
> >>>>>> need
> >>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>>> lot
> >>>>>>>>>> of adjustments. Perhaps such a project would identify our
> >>>> inherit
> >>>>>>> bias?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> [1]
> >>>>>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_every_
> >>>>>>>>>> Wikipedia_should_have
> >>>>>>>>>> [2]
> >>>>>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_every_
> >>>>>>>>>> Wikipedia_should_have/Expanded
> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> >>>>>>>>>> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> >>>>>>>>>> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >>>>>>>>>> New messages to: [hidden email]
> >>>>>>>>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
> >>>>>> mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> >>>>>>> ,
> >>>>>>>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=
> >>>>>> unsubscribe>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>> James Heilman
> >>>>>>>>> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
> >>>>>>>>> i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
> >>>>>>>>> i/Wikimedia-l
> >>>>>>>>> New messages to: [hidden email]
> >>>>>>>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
> >>>>> mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> >>>>>> ,
> >>>>>>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=
> >>>>> unsubscribe>
> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> >>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >>>>>>> New messages to: [hidden email]
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> >>>> mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> >>>>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=
> >>> unsubscribe>
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> >>>>>> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
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> >>>>>> New messages to: [hidden email]
> >>>>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
> >>> mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> >>>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=
> >> unsubscribe>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
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> >>>>> New messages to: [hidden email]
> >>>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
> >> mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> >>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> James Heilman
> >>>> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> >>>> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> >>>> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >>>> New messages to: [hidden email]
> >>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> ,
> >>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> >>> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> >>> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >>> New messages to: [hidden email]
> >>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> >>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> >> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> >> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >> New messages to: [hidden email]
> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> >> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > GN.
> > Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page
> > WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
> > Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
> > Out now: A.Gaynor, P. Newman and P. Jennings (eds.), *Never Again:
> > Reflections on Environmental Responsibility after Roe 8*, UWAP, 2017.
> Order
> > here
> > <https://uwap.uwa.edu.au/products/never-again-
> reflections-on-environmental-responsibility-after-roe-8>
> > .
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 11:41:11 -0800
> > From: Michael Snow <[hidden email]>
> > To: [hidden email]
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation
> > Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
> >
> > I think the experience I've had with translating matches up well with
> > the conclusions James has outlined. Even though I'm more likely to
> > translate content into English rather than out of English, the
> > principles still hold.
> >
> > Trying to produce a translation without quality content in the original
> > article is a frustrating and pointless exercise for the translator.
> > Unless the original meets certain standards, it would be better and
> > easier to write the article from scratch in the "destination" language
> > and translate it back to the "source" language.
> >
> > Assuming we have a good article in the original language, I definitely
> > encourage translators to use editorial judgment in what they carry over.
> > Focusing on the lead section is one possible approach. In general,
> > because we are trying to translate information and not literature, we
> > should have different priorities. It is more important that the
> > translation maintain fidelity to the facts than to the language and
> > structure of the article. Sometimes it makes sense to pass over certain
> > details, even a beginning-to-end translation might come out a bit
> > condensed. As one reason for this, making some details accessible to the
> > cultural audience in the new language can at times require a fair amount
> > of elaboration, more than may be ideal for the context under discussion.
> > The best approach to use is one of adaptation as much as translation.
> >
> > I don't have strong feelings about whether a paid model will work, or
> > work better than purely volunteer activity, but I would be open to
> > seeing a trial. The essential thing is that we find translators who can
> > understand and apply standards of quality in their work, much like we
> > would expect if they were editors writing entirely new articles.
> >
> > --Michael Snow
> >
> >> On 2/24/2018 5:26 AM, James Heilman wrote:
> >> We learned a few things during the medical translation project which
> >> started back in 2011:
> >>
> >> 1) You must start with high quality content and thus all articles are
> >> extensively improved before being proposed for translation.
> >>
> >> 2) A lot of languages want "less" content than is present on EN WP.
> Thus we
> >> moved to just improving and suggesting for translation the leads of the
> >> English articles.
> >>
> >> 3) The "Content Translation" tool developed by the WMF made efforts more
> >> efficient than handing around word documents. Would love to see that
> tool
> >> improved further such as having it support specific lists of articles
> that
> >> are deemed ready for translation by certain groups. Would also love the
> >> tool to have tracking metrics for these types of projects.
> >>
> >> 4) We used volunteer translators mostly associated with our partner
> >> Translators Without Borders. One issue we found was that languages in
> which
> >> their are lots of translators such as French, Spanish, and Italian
> there is
> >> often already at least some content on many of the topics in question.
> The
> >> issue than becomes integration which needs an expert Wikipedia. And for
> >> languages in which we have little content there are often few avaliable
> >> volunteers.
> >>
> >> 5) With respect to "paying per word" the problem is this would require
> >> significant checks and balances to make sure people are taking the work
> >> seriously and not simple using Google translate for the 70 or so
> languages
> >> in which it claims to work. We often had translations undergo a second
> >> review and the volunteers at TWB have to pass certain tests to be
> accepted.
> >>
> >> 6) I hired a coordinator for the translation project for a couple of
> years.
> >> The translators at TWB did not want to become Wikipedians or learn how
> to
> >> use our systems. The coordinator created account like TransSW001 (one
> for
> >> each volunteer) and preloaded the article to be translated into Content
> >> Translation. They than gave the volunteer translator the user name and
> >> password to the account.
> >>
> >> 7) Were are we at now? There are currently just over 1,000 leads of
> >> articles that have been improved and are ready for translation. This
> >> includes articles on the 440 medications that are on the WHO Essential
> >> List. We have worked a bit in some 100 languages. The efforts have
> resulted
> >> in more than 5 million works translated and integrated into different
> >> Wikipedias. The coordinator has unfortunately moved on to his real job
> of
> >> teaching high school students.
> >>
> >> 8) The project continues but at a slower pace than before. The
> Wikipedian
> >> and retired orthopedic surgeon Subas Chandra Rout has basically single
> >> handedly translated nearly all 1,000 leads into Odia a language spoken
> by
> >> 40 million people in Eastern India. The amazing thing is that for many
> of
> >> these topics this is the first and only information online about it.
> Google
> >> translate does not even claim to work in this language. Our partnerships
> >> with WMTW and medical school in Taipai continue to translate into
> Chinese.
> >> There the students translate and than their translations are reviewed by
> >> their profs before being posted. They translate in groups using hackpad
> to
> >> make it more social.
> >>
> >> I am currently working to re invigorate the project :-)
> >> James
> >>
> >>> On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 5:51 AM, John Erling Blad <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> This discussion is going to be fun! =D
> >>>
> >>> A little more than seventy Wikipedia-projects has more than 65k
> articles,
> >>> the remaining two hundred or so are pretty small.
> >>>
> >>> What if a base set of articles were opened for paid translators? There
> are
> >>> several lists of such base sets. We have both the thousand articles
> from
> >>> "List of articles every Wikipedia should have"[1] and and the ten
> thousand
> >>> articles from the expanded list[2].
> >>>
> >>> Lets say verified good translators was paid about $0.01 per word
> (about $1
> >>> for a 1k-article) for translating one of those articles into another
> >>> language, with perhaps a higher pay for contributors in high-cost
> >>> countries. The pay would also have to be higher for languages that
> lacks
> >>> good translation tools.
> >>>
> >>> I believe this would be an _enabling_ activity for the communities, as
> >>> without a base set of articles it won't be possible to build a
> community at
> >>> all. By not paying for new articles, and only translating
> well-referenced
> >>> articles, some of the disputes in the communities could be avoided.
> Perhaps
> >>> we should also identify good source articles, that would be a help.
> >>> Translated articles should be above some minimum size, but they does
> not
> >>> have to be full translations of the source article.
> >>>
> >>> A real problem is that our existing lists of good articles other
> projects
> >>> should have is pretty much biased towards Western World, so they need
> a lot
> >>> of adjustments. Perhaps such a project would identify our inherit bias?
> >>>
> >>> [1]
> >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_every_
> >>> Wikipedia_should_have
> >>> [2]
> >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_every_
> >>> Wikipedia_should_have/Expanded
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> >>> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> >>> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >>> New messages to: [hidden email]
> >>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> >>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Subject: Digest Footer
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > End of Wikimedia-l Digest, Vol 167, Issue 38
> > ********************************************
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

John Erling Blad
In reply to this post by Info WorldUniversity
I like this!
+1000!!

On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 11:07 PM, Info WorldUniversity <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> John and All,
>
> As a possible complement to this discussion, CC-4 MIT
> OpenCourseWare-centric World University and School seeks to matriculate
> students in all ~200 countries' official/main languages (
> https://wiki.worlduniversityandschool.org/wiki/Languages), and may
> compensate them for work in a number of ways, including translation and
> developing machine translation (and in all 7,099 living languages
> eventually).
>
> World Univ. and Sch. donated ourselves to Wikidata in 2015 for
> co-development, and got a new WUaS Miraheze Mediawiki last year in these
> regards too.
>
> Cheers, Scott
> - https://wiki.worlduniversityandschool.org/wiki/Nation_States
> (each to become a major online University for free CC-4 OCW degrees)
>
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 1:49 PM, John Erling Blad <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > It is a long time since everyone on these projects were solely
> volunteers.
> > :)
> >
> > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 9:40 PM, Todd Allen <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> > > Yes, and then there's always the question. If he's getting paid, why
> > aren't
> > > I? Why is he getting paid per word of article translated? Why am I not
> > > getting paid per spamvertisement deleted or vandal blocked? Why am I
> not
> > > getting paid for closing discussions that it takes hours of reading
> input
> > > and considering all sides and getting rocks thrown at me no matter
> what I
> > > do? Is that not valuable to the project as well?
> > >
> > > If you want to pay anyone, you better start paying me. I'm okay with
> the
> > > idea of being a volunteer as long as everyone is a volunteer. But if
> you
> > > start paying some people and not me, we're going to have a problem.
> > >
> > > Todd
> > >
> > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 12:47 PM, Peter Southwood <
> > > [hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Those who pay get to select what is translated.
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > Peter
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]]
> On
> > > > Behalf Of Jean-Philippe Béland
> > > > Sent: 24 February 2018 16:55
> > > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation
> > > >
> > > > I think the request for such projects should come from the concerned
> > > > language projects, same for the list of articles. If not, in my
> simple
> > > > opinion, it is a form of coloniasm again.
> > > >
> > > > Jean-Philippe Béland
> > > > Vice President, Wikimedia Canada
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 9:40 AM John Erling Blad <[hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Should have added that the remaining points are somewhat less
> > > > > interesting in this context. Preloading a set of articles is a bad
> > > > > idea, the translators should be able to chose for themselves.
> > Articles
> > > > > should also be pretty broad, not very narrow technical or medical,
> ie
> > > > > vertical articles, as the number of editors that can handle those
> > will
> > > > be pretty small.
> > > > >
> > > > > In particular: Do not believe you can turn a teanslator into a new
> > > > editor!
> > > > > You can although turn an existing editor into a translator.
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 3:34 PM, John Erling Blad <
> [hidden email]>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > 1) You must start with high quality content and thus all articles
> > > > > > are
> > > > > >> extensively improved before being proposed for translation.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Note that to much pressure on "quality" can easily kill the
> > project.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 3) The "Content Translation" tool developed by the WMF made
> efforts
> > > > > > more
> > > > > >> efficient than handing around word documents. Would love to see
> > > > > >> that
> > > > > tool
> > > > > >> improved further such as having it support specific lists of
> > > > > >> articles
> > > > > that
> > > > > >> are deemed ready for translation by certain groups. Would also
> > love
> > > > > >> the tool to have tracking metrics for these types of projects.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Didn't mention ContentTranslation, but it should be pretty
> obvious.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 4) We used volunteer translators mostly associated with our
> partner
> > > > > >> Translators Without Borders. One issue we found was that
> languages
> > > > > >> in which their are lots of translators such as French, Spanish,
> > and
> > > > > >> Italian there is often already at least some content on many of
> > the
> > > > > >> topics in question.
> > > > > The
> > > > > >> issue than becomes integration which needs an expert Wikipedia.
> > And
> > > > > >> for languages in which we have little content there are often
> few
> > > > > >> avaliable volunteers.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I used projects below 65k articles as an example, as the chance
> of
> > > > > > competing articles are pretty low.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 5) With respect to "paying per word" the problem is this would
> > > > > > require
> > > > > >> significant checks and balances to make sure people are taking
> the
> > > > > >> work seriously and not simple using Google translate for the 70
> or
> > > > > >> so
> > > > > languages
> > > > > >> in which it claims to work. We often had translations undergo a
> > > > > >> second review and the volunteers at TWB have to pass certain
> tests
> > > > > >> to be accepted.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'n my original email I wrote "verified good translators". It is
> as
> > > > > > simple as "Has the editor contributed other articles at the
> > project?"
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 2:26 PM, James Heilman <[hidden email]
> >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> We learned a few things during the medical translation project
> > > > > >> which started back in 2011:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> 1) You must start with high quality content and thus all
> articles
> > > > > >> are extensively improved before being proposed for translation.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> 2) A lot of languages want "less" content than is present on EN
> > WP.
> > > > > >> Thus we moved to just improving and suggesting for translation
> the
> > > > > >> leads of the English articles.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> 3) The "Content Translation" tool developed by the WMF made
> > efforts
> > > > > >> more efficient than handing around word documents. Would love to
> > > > > >> see that
> > > > > tool
> > > > > >> improved further such as having it support specific lists of
> > > > > >> articles
> > > > > that
> > > > > >> are deemed ready for translation by certain groups. Would also
> > love
> > > > > >> the tool to have tracking metrics for these types of projects.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> 4) We used volunteer translators mostly associated with our
> > partner
> > > > > >> Translators Without Borders. One issue we found was that
> languages
> > > > > >> in which their are lots of translators such as French, Spanish,
> > and
> > > > > >> Italian there is often already at least some content on many of
> > the
> > > > > >> topics in question.
> > > > > The
> > > > > >> issue than becomes integration which needs an expert Wikipedia.
> > And
> > > > > >> for languages in which we have little content there are often
> few
> > > > > >> avaliable volunteers.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> 5) With respect to "paying per word" the problem is this would
> > > > > >> require significant checks and balances to make sure people are
> > > > > >> taking the work seriously and not simple using Google translate
> > for
> > > > > >> the 70 or so
> > > > > languages
> > > > > >> in which it claims to work. We often had translations undergo a
> > > > > >> second review and the volunteers at TWB have to pass certain
> tests
> > > > > >> to be accepted.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> 6) I hired a coordinator for the translation project for a
> couple
> > > > > >> of years.
> > > > > >> The translators at TWB did not want to become Wikipedians or
> learn
> > > > > >> how
> > > > > to
> > > > > >> use our systems. The coordinator created account like TransSW001
> > > > > >> (one
> > > > > for
> > > > > >> each volunteer) and preloaded the article to be translated into
> > > > > >> Content Translation. They than gave the volunteer translator the
> > > > > >> user name and password to the account.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> 7) Were are we at now? There are currently just over 1,000 leads
> > of
> > > > > >> articles that have been improved and are ready for translation.
> > > > > >> This includes articles on the 440 medications that are on the
> WHO
> > > > > >> Essential List. We have worked a bit in some 100 languages. The
> > > > > >> efforts have resulted in more than 5 million works translated
> and
> > > > > >> integrated into different Wikipedias. The coordinator has
> > > > > >> unfortunately moved on to his real job
> > > > > of
> > > > > >> teaching high school students.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> 8) The project continues but at a slower pace than before. The
> > > > > Wikipedian
> > > > > >> and retired orthopedic surgeon Subas Chandra Rout has basically
> > > > > >> single handedly translated nearly all 1,000 leads into Odia a
> > > > > >> language spoken
> > > > > by
> > > > > >> 40 million people in Eastern India. The amazing thing is that
> for
> > > > > >> many
> > > > > of
> > > > > >> these topics this is the first and only information online about
> > it.
> > > > > >> Google
> > > > > >> translate does not even claim to work in this language. Our
> > > > > >> partnerships with WMTW and medical school in Taipai continue to
> > > > > >> translate into
> > > > > Chinese.
> > > > > >> There the students translate and than their translations are
> > > > > >> reviewed by their profs before being posted. They translate in
> > > > > >> groups using hackpad
> > > > > to
> > > > > >> make it more social.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> I am currently working to re invigorate the project :-) James
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 5:51 AM, John Erling Blad
> > > > > >> <[hidden email]>
> > > > > >> wrote:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> > This discussion is going to be fun! =D
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > A little more than seventy Wikipedia-projects has more than
> 65k
> > > > > >> articles,
> > > > > >> > the remaining two hundred or so are pretty small.
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > What if a base set of articles were opened for paid
> translators?
> > > > > >> > There
> > > > > >> are
> > > > > >> > several lists of such base sets. We have both the thousand
> > > > > >> > articles
> > > > > from
> > > > > >> > "List of articles every Wikipedia should have"[1] and and the
> > ten
> > > > > >> thousand
> > > > > >> > articles from the expanded list[2].
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > Lets say verified good translators was paid about $0.01 per
> word
> > > > > (about
> > > > > >> $1
> > > > > >> > for a 1k-article) for translating one of those articles into
> > > > > >> > another language, with perhaps a higher pay for contributors
> in
> > > > > >> > high-cost countries. The pay would also have to be higher for
> > > > > >> > languages that
> > > > > lacks
> > > > > >> > good translation tools.
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > I believe this would be an _enabling_ activity for the
> > > > > >> > communities, as without a base set of articles it won't be
> > > > > >> > possible to build a
> > > > > >> community at
> > > > > >> > all. By not paying for new articles, and only translating
> > > > > >> well-referenced
> > > > > >> > articles, some of the disputes in the communities could be
> > > avoided.
> > > > > >> Perhaps
> > > > > >> > we should also identify good source articles, that would be a
> > > help.
> > > > > >> > Translated articles should be above some minimum size, but
> they
> > > > > >> > does
> > > > > not
> > > > > >> > have to be full translations of the source article.
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > A real problem is that our existing lists of good articles
> other
> > > > > >> projects
> > > > > >> > should have is pretty much biased towards Western World, so
> they
> > > > > >> > need
> > > > > a
> > > > > >> lot
> > > > > >> > of adjustments. Perhaps such a project would identify our
> > inherit
> > > > > bias?
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > [1]
> > > > > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_every_
> > > > > >> > Wikipedia_should_have
> > > > > >> > [2]
> > > > > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_every_
> > > > > >> > Wikipedia_should_have/Expanded
> > > > > >> > _______________________________________________
> > > > > >> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to:
> > > > > >> > [hidden email]
> > > > > >> > Unsubscribe:
> > > > > >> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > > > > ,
> > > > > >> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=
> > unsubscri
> > > > > >> > be>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> --
> > > > > >> James Heilman
> > > > > >> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> > > > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > > > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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> > unsubscribe
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
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>
> --
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> - https://twitter.com/WorldUnivAndSch
> - World University and School
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

Anders Wennersten-2
In reply to this post by John Erling Blad
I am very happy to follow this thread as I believe it is addressing a
very relevant issue.

In my mind we can divide up the different language version into 5
categories:

1.Enwp,

2.the next 6-7 (de,fr, es,jp,pt,ru..)

3.the next 20 or so, where the basic workprocesses are applied

4.the next 40-50 which are struggling to generate more input then what
is vandalised

5.the rest which in reality is no viable online encyclopedias

And for me no 1 priority is to accept that there are these categories,
and that what is applicable for cat 1 and 2 is not so for 4 and 5.

I believe the grant model could easily make room for subsiding good
initiatives addressing the problem for cat 4 and 5 (and perhaps 3).

And I think it is very presumptuous to start talking of what technique
to use and things like translation. If we open up for creative
brainstorming (among the ones having the need) I think very many other
ways can turn up. Myself I am deeply impressed what you can create using
Wikidata as a base source of info, and being from a version of type 3 I
see how much my homeversion improve content with wikidata created infoboxes

Anders



Den 2018-02-24 kl. 13:51, skrev John Erling Blad:

> This discussion is going to be fun! =D
>
> A little more than seventy Wikipedia-projects has more than 65k articles,
> the remaining two hundred or so are pretty small.
>
> What if a base set of articles were opened for paid translators? There are
> several lists of such base sets. We have both the thousand articles from
> "List of articles every Wikipedia should have"[1] and and the ten thousand
> articles from the expanded list[2].
>
> Lets say verified good translators was paid about $0.01 per word (about $1
> for a 1k-article) for translating one of those articles into another
> language, with perhaps a higher pay for contributors in high-cost
> countries. The pay would also have to be higher for languages that lacks
> good translation tools.
>
> I believe this would be an _enabling_ activity for the communities, as
> without a base set of articles it won't be possible to build a community at
> all. By not paying for new articles, and only translating well-referenced
> articles, some of the disputes in the communities could be avoided. Perhaps
> we should also identify good source articles, that would be a help.
> Translated articles should be above some minimum size, but they does not
> have to be full translations of the source article.
>
> A real problem is that our existing lists of good articles other projects
> should have is pretty much biased towards Western World, so they need a lot
> of adjustments. Perhaps such a project would identify our inherit bias?
>
> [1]
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_every_Wikipedia_should_have
> [2]
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_every_Wikipedia_should_have/Expanded
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

Gabriel Thullen
I should have joined in this discussion a little earlier. I work a lot with
the French Wikipedia, and we do not just translate articles from English (6
million articles) to French (only 2 million articles). The French community
is large and active, and provide a unique local perspective on the
different articles that are written. And when I say local, I mean that
things are seen differently in France than in the French speaking part of
Switzerland or Belgium.

I think that we are ignoring something very important here: putting it
simply, Wikipedia contributors do two things. They add information to the
encyclopedia by improving articles or writing new ones, and they curate or
check the existing articles. All this talk about machine translation does
not address the second aspect of what the volunteer contributors do.
This means that we could have hundreds of thousands of articles in a
language with  very few active contributors. Will that small community be
able to oversee so many articles ?

For example, have a look at the list of Wikipedias ordered by number of
articles:
1. English - 5,578,081 articles - 138,479 active users - 1,230 admins
2. Cebuano - 5,383,108 articles - 162 active users - 5 admins
3. Swedish - 3,784,331 articles - 2,929 active users - 65 admins
4. German - 2,157,495 articles - 20, 085 active users - 194 admins

When I have some time, I will look into different ratios like number or
articles/active users or number of articles/number of native language
speakers... Now I am not saying that our Swedish friends have abused
machine translation of articles, but I definetly that something is not
quite right about the Cebuano wiki...
Gabe


On Sun, Feb 25, 2018 at 4:06 PM, Anders Wennersten <[hidden email]
> wrote:

> I am very happy to follow this thread as I believe it is addressing a very
> relevant issue.
>
> In my mind we can divide up the different language version into 5
> categories:
>
> 1.Enwp,
>
> 2.the next 6-7 (de,fr, es,jp,pt,ru..)
>
> 3.the next 20 or so, where the basic workprocesses are applied
>
> 4.the next 40-50 which are struggling to generate more input then what is
> vandalised
>
> 5.the rest which in reality is no viable online encyclopedias
>
> And for me no 1 priority is to accept that there are these categories, and
> that what is applicable for cat 1 and 2 is not so for 4 and 5.
>
> I believe the grant model could easily make room for subsiding good
> initiatives addressing the problem for cat 4 and 5 (and perhaps 3).
>
> And I think it is very presumptuous to start talking of what technique to
> use and things like translation. If we open up for creative brainstorming
> (among the ones having the need) I think very many other ways can turn up.
> Myself I am deeply impressed what you can create using Wikidata as a base
> source of info, and being from a version of type 3 I see how much my
> homeversion improve content with wikidata created infoboxes
>
> Anders
>
>
>
>
> Den 2018-02-24 kl. 13:51, skrev John Erling Blad:
>
>> This discussion is going to be fun! =D
>>
>> A little more than seventy Wikipedia-projects has more than 65k articles,
>> the remaining two hundred or so are pretty small.
>>
>> What if a base set of articles were opened for paid translators? There are
>> several lists of such base sets. We have both the thousand articles from
>> "List of articles every Wikipedia should have"[1] and and the ten thousand
>> articles from the expanded list[2].
>>
>> Lets say verified good translators was paid about $0.01 per word (about $1
>> for a 1k-article) for translating one of those articles into another
>> language, with perhaps a higher pay for contributors in high-cost
>> countries. The pay would also have to be higher for languages that lacks
>> good translation tools.
>>
>> I believe this would be an _enabling_ activity for the communities, as
>> without a base set of articles it won't be possible to build a community
>> at
>> all. By not paying for new articles, and only translating well-referenced
>> articles, some of the disputes in the communities could be avoided.
>> Perhaps
>> we should also identify good source articles, that would be a help.
>> Translated articles should be above some minimum size, but they does not
>> have to be full translations of the source article.
>>
>> A real problem is that our existing lists of good articles other projects
>> should have is pretty much biased towards Western World, so they need a
>> lot
>> of adjustments. Perhaps such a project would identify our inherit bias?
>>
>> [1]
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_every_Wikip
>> edia_should_have
>> [2]
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_every_Wikip
>> edia_should_have/Expanded
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
>> i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
>> i/Wikimedia-l
>> New messages to: [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
> i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
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