[Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

John Erling Blad
Some years ago I tried to figure out whether there was some kind of
mechanism that kept the community sizes at a fixed level. Taking the
population in countries that spoke a specific language, adjusting for
access to internet, and family sizes, made me realize that most stable
projects have 0.2–0.4 ‰ contributors within a normalized language group. If
you then say a stable community consists of 10-20 users, then this creates
a pretty hard limit on the language size. A community of 10-20 users would
imply a language size of 250–1000 000 people. That makes a
Wikipedia-project out of reach for a lot of languages.

(If you somehow limit this group, for example by demanding that only
trained medics should write medical articles, then you draw those medics
from the already limited set, in effect demanding an even larger language
group to make a working community.)

To create the initial interest to make a core encyclopedia is even more
difficult. To bridge that gap, and initiate building of a sustainable
community, a core set of articles are necessary. Perhaps that core set will
be short-lived, and will be replaced with articles that somehow better
reflects the user basis at the local language, but a core set that reflects
some common ground is nonetheless necessary. The capitol of Sweden doesn't
magically disappears in Bengali. The moon doesn't magically turns into
cheese unless in a fairy tale. There are some universal constants that all
languages must adhere to, even in Sicilian Wikipedia a mafioso is a mobster
[1] (someone have messed up the interlinking)

In Norwegian Bokmål we have a few users that has this kind of weird idea
that if something lacks an explicit name, either a word or phrase, then it
should not be described. In my opinion that is nonsense. Some kind of
entity can be described, in any language, no matter if it has a name. We
describe the World as we know it, using words or phrases from the language
to do so. If what we describe has a name, then we use that name. In some
languages that means describing a specific entity is difficult because the
local language has many words and phrases for the same thing. In some other
language it might be difficult because there are no word or phrases to
describe the entity. Neither of those problems arise because the entity is
non-existing in our world, it is just difficult to describe in the specific
language.

Give people knowledge! If they need to somehow clarify that knowledge to
make it more accessible to them, then let them do that! That is why
Wikipedia is editable for everyone!

[1] https://scn.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mafiusu

On Sun, Feb 25, 2018 at 2:07 PM, Amir E. Aharoni <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> I'll start by saying that I'm one of the developers of Content Translation,
> so I'm obviously biased about this topic.
>
> A lot of good points were raised here, but there's one that is not really
> mentioned. If it sounds obvious to you, it's great, but it's not obvious to
> everyone. Here it is:
>
> More successful Wikipedia projects tend to be in languages in which there
> is an established history and tradition of:
> * elementary and higher education where teachers and professors speak to
> students in that language, and in which students write papers in that
> language
> * publishing textbooks
> * publishing encyclopedias
> * publishing dictionaries
> * translating works from (any) other languages, both fiction and reference
>
> People who can read in these developed languages should remember this
> privilege that they have: English, French, Russian, Spanish, German,
> Polish, Italian, Dutch, Czech, Japanese, Norwegian, Hebrew and a few other
> well-developed Wikipedias are written in languages in which good
> encyclopedias had already existed before Wikipedia came along. A Wikipedia
> in these languages didn't make encyclopedic knowledge available in these
> languages; it made encyclopedic knowledge *more easily* available in them.
>
> There are many other things that (probably) affect the development of a
> Wikipedia, such as web connectivity; speakers' population; speakers'
> attitude to the language; work week length (and the remaining free time);
> volunteering culture (or lack thereof); support of common operating systems
> for the language; economic indicators like GDP and HDI in the countries
> where the language is spoken; etc. I'm not aware of research that checks
> the correlation between these aspects and the development of a Wikipedia
> project in a language, but I strongly suspect that it exists for at least
> some of the above. (If anybody reading this is aware of such research, I'll
> be very happy to read it.)
>
> But it's important to go back to the first point here: The existence of
> previous encyclopedias makes it easier for writers in these languages to
> simply start writing. "An encyclopedia" is not a new concept for them. The
> culture around these languages already had well-developed scientific
> terminology and a language style.
>
> When I speak to people who write in Wikipedia in languages of India,
> Philippines, and other developing countries, they complain about different
> things from people that write in European languages. For example, they very
> often complain about the difficulty of writing in an encyclopedic style and
> bridging the colloquial language that common people can read and the
> standardized versions of the respective languages. This makes me think that
> they were standardized in a way that is problematic for *actually* writing
> an encyclopedia that would be useful to the general public.
>
> A *massive* project for writing in a language, would create a critical mass
> of people who would either make the general public accustomed to reading in
> this standard language, or create a new de facto standard. But I guess that
> none of the current Wikipedia projects in these languages have this
> critical mass of writers.
>
> A translation project, such as what Jon Erling Blad and Lane Rasberry are
> suggesting in this thread *may* create such a critical mass. It also needs
> bold leaders, who will take it upon themselves Languages that are developed
> today went through periods of directed development in the past; Lomonosov
> did it for Russian, Diderot did it for French, and so on. This can happen
> today as well. (English went through this, too, although I'm not sure which
> person should be tied to it: Isaac Newton? Samuel Johnson? John Harris
> (Q562265)? Alfred the Great? Probably all of them to some degree.)
>
> I'd even go further and say that I don't agree with Lane when he says that
> the WMF cannot and will never pay for content. It sounds like a given thing
> to some people, but it isn't. Quite the contrary; it's imaginable that a
> careful and thoughtful project of this nature can be carried out by the WMF
> itself. "WMF never does this" is not a rule, and it must not be a mental
> blocker. I increasingly feel that the WMF is gradually, increasingly
> understanding that different languages need different kinds of resources
> and support, and this may include paid content creation. (Before you jump
> to conclusions: I'm a WMF staff member, but please don't understand from
> this that I know about some internal project to do such a thing, or that I
> am suggesting to do this. Neither thing is true. I'm just writing a sincere
> stream of consciousness about my opinions and feelings, and I might be
> wrong about it all.)
>
> That said, it does make more sense to me that organizations other than the
> WMF should lead such work, perhaps with some WMF funding, for the sake of
> thought diversity if for nothing else. But whether it's paid for by the WMF
> directly, by Wikimedia chapters, by thematic interest groups, or by
> somebody else is not the main issue. What is important, is that *local*
> people and native speakers are as involved as possible in the content
> creation, and that the list of topics to be translated is not too strongly
> dictated.
>
> (I also like the suggestion of translating from different languages. For
> practical reasons, English is the most common translation source [1], but
> translating from French, Russian, Chinese, or other languages, is awesome
> for diversity—not just politically, but philosophically as well.)
>
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:CXStats
>
>
> --
> Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
> http://aharoni.wordpress.com
> ‪“We're living in pieces,
> I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬
>
> 2018-02-24 14:51 GMT+02:00 John Erling Blad <[hidden email]>:
>
> > This discussion is going to be fun! =D
> >
> > A little more than seventy Wikipedia-projects has more than 65k articles,
> > the remaining two hundred or so are pretty small.
> >
> > What if a base set of articles were opened for paid translators? There
> are
> > several lists of such base sets. We have both the thousand articles from
> > "List of articles every Wikipedia should have"[1] and and the ten
> thousand
> > articles from the expanded list[2].
> >
> > Lets say verified good translators was paid about $0.01 per word (about
> $1
> > for a 1k-article) for translating one of those articles into another
> > language, with perhaps a higher pay for contributors in high-cost
> > countries. The pay would also have to be higher for languages that lacks
> > good translation tools.
> >
> > I believe this would be an _enabling_ activity for the communities, as
> > without a base set of articles it won't be possible to build a community
> at
> > all. By not paying for new articles, and only translating well-referenced
> > articles, some of the disputes in the communities could be avoided.
> Perhaps
> > we should also identify good source articles, that would be a help.
> > Translated articles should be above some minimum size, but they does not
> > have to be full translations of the source article.
> >
> > A real problem is that our existing lists of good articles other projects
> > should have is pretty much biased towards Western World, so they need a
> lot
> > of adjustments. Perhaps such a project would identify our inherit bias?
> >
> > [1]
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_every_
> > Wikipedia_should_have
> > [2]
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_every_
> > Wikipedia_should_have/Expanded
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
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> wiki/Wikimedia-l
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

John Erling Blad
In reply to this post by Gabriel Thullen
I wonder if creating dynamic articles from Wikidata is better than creating
static articles. Because we lack tools for this, it is easier to do this
offline, and as a consequence we get the static bot-articles.

Den søn. 25. feb. 2018, 16.26 skrev Gabriel Thullen <[hidden email]>:

> I should have joined in this discussion a little earlier. I work a lot with
> the French Wikipedia, and we do not just translate articles from English (6
> million articles) to French (only 2 million articles). The French community
> is large and active, and provide a unique local perspective on the
> different articles that are written. And when I say local, I mean that
> things are seen differently in France than in the French speaking part of
> Switzerland or Belgium.
>
> I think that we are ignoring something very important here: putting it
> simply, Wikipedia contributors do two things. They add information to the
> encyclopedia by improving articles or writing new ones, and they curate or
> check the existing articles. All this talk about machine translation does
> not address the second aspect of what the volunteer contributors do.
> This means that we could have hundreds of thousands of articles in a
> language with  very few active contributors. Will that small community be
> able to oversee so many articles ?
>
> For example, have a look at the list of Wikipedias ordered by number of
> articles:
> 1. English - 5,578,081 articles - 138,479 active users - 1,230 admins
> 2. Cebuano - 5,383,108 articles - 162 active users - 5 admins
> 3. Swedish - 3,784,331 articles - 2,929 active users - 65 admins
> 4. German - 2,157,495 articles - 20, 085 active users - 194 admins
>
> When I have some time, I will look into different ratios like number or
> articles/active users or number of articles/number of native language
> speakers... Now I am not saying that our Swedish friends have abused
> machine translation of articles, but I definetly that something is not
> quite right about the Cebuano wiki...
> Gabe
>
>
> On Sun, Feb 25, 2018 at 4:06 PM, Anders Wennersten <
> [hidden email]
> > wrote:
>
> > I am very happy to follow this thread as I believe it is addressing a
> very
> > relevant issue.
> >
> > In my mind we can divide up the different language version into 5
> > categories:
> >
> > 1.Enwp,
> >
> > 2.the next 6-7 (de,fr, es,jp,pt,ru..)
> >
> > 3.the next 20 or so, where the basic workprocesses are applied
> >
> > 4.the next 40-50 which are struggling to generate more input then what is
> > vandalised
> >
> > 5.the rest which in reality is no viable online encyclopedias
> >
> > And for me no 1 priority is to accept that there are these categories,
> and
> > that what is applicable for cat 1 and 2 is not so for 4 and 5.
> >
> > I believe the grant model could easily make room for subsiding good
> > initiatives addressing the problem for cat 4 and 5 (and perhaps 3).
> >
> > And I think it is very presumptuous to start talking of what technique to
> > use and things like translation. If we open up for creative brainstorming
> > (among the ones having the need) I think very many other ways can turn
> up.
> > Myself I am deeply impressed what you can create using Wikidata as a base
> > source of info, and being from a version of type 3 I see how much my
> > homeversion improve content with wikidata created infoboxes
> >
> > Anders
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Den 2018-02-24 kl. 13:51, skrev John Erling Blad:
> >
> >> This discussion is going to be fun! =D
> >>
> >> A little more than seventy Wikipedia-projects has more than 65k
> articles,
> >> the remaining two hundred or so are pretty small.
> >>
> >> What if a base set of articles were opened for paid translators? There
> are
> >> several lists of such base sets. We have both the thousand articles from
> >> "List of articles every Wikipedia should have"[1] and and the ten
> thousand
> >> articles from the expanded list[2].
> >>
> >> Lets say verified good translators was paid about $0.01 per word (about
> $1
> >> for a 1k-article) for translating one of those articles into another
> >> language, with perhaps a higher pay for contributors in high-cost
> >> countries. The pay would also have to be higher for languages that lacks
> >> good translation tools.
> >>
> >> I believe this would be an _enabling_ activity for the communities, as
> >> without a base set of articles it won't be possible to build a community
> >> at
> >> all. By not paying for new articles, and only translating
> well-referenced
> >> articles, some of the disputes in the communities could be avoided.
> >> Perhaps
> >> we should also identify good source articles, that would be a help.
> >> Translated articles should be above some minimum size, but they does not
> >> have to be full translations of the source article.
> >>
> >> A real problem is that our existing lists of good articles other
> projects
> >> should have is pretty much biased towards Western World, so they need a
> >> lot
> >> of adjustments. Perhaps such a project would identify our inherit bias?
> >>
> >> [1]
> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_every_Wikip
> >> edia_should_have
> >> [2]
> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_every_Wikip
> >> edia_should_have/Expanded
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
> >> i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
> >> i/Wikimedia-l
> >> New messages to: [hidden email]
> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> >> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
> > i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

James Salsman-2
> wonder if creating dynamic articles from Wikidata is better
> than creating static articles

Not for years to decades.

https://twitter.com/AustenAllred/status/967842020151603200



On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 3:02 AM, John Erling Blad <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I wonder if creating dynamic articles from Wikidata is better than creating
> static articles. Because we lack tools for this, it is easier to do this
> offline, and as a consequence we get the static bot-articles.
>
> Den søn. 25. feb. 2018, 16.26 skrev Gabriel Thullen <[hidden email]>:
>
>> I should have joined in this discussion a little earlier. I work a lot with
>> the French Wikipedia, and we do not just translate articles from English (6
>> million articles) to French (only 2 million articles). The French community
>> is large and active, and provide a unique local perspective on the
>> different articles that are written. And when I say local, I mean that
>> things are seen differently in France than in the French speaking part of
>> Switzerland or Belgium.
>>
>> I think that we are ignoring something very important here: putting it
>> simply, Wikipedia contributors do two things. They add information to the
>> encyclopedia by improving articles or writing new ones, and they curate or
>> check the existing articles. All this talk about machine translation does
>> not address the second aspect of what the volunteer contributors do.
>> This means that we could have hundreds of thousands of articles in a
>> language with  very few active contributors. Will that small community be
>> able to oversee so many articles ?
>>
>> For example, have a look at the list of Wikipedias ordered by number of
>> articles:
>> 1. English - 5,578,081 articles - 138,479 active users - 1,230 admins
>> 2. Cebuano - 5,383,108 articles - 162 active users - 5 admins
>> 3. Swedish - 3,784,331 articles - 2,929 active users - 65 admins
>> 4. German - 2,157,495 articles - 20, 085 active users - 194 admins
>>
>> When I have some time, I will look into different ratios like number or
>> articles/active users or number of articles/number of native language
>> speakers... Now I am not saying that our Swedish friends have abused
>> machine translation of articles, but I definetly that something is not
>> quite right about the Cebuano wiki...
>> Gabe
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Feb 25, 2018 at 4:06 PM, Anders Wennersten <
>> [hidden email]
>> > wrote:
>>
>> > I am very happy to follow this thread as I believe it is addressing a
>> very
>> > relevant issue.
>> >
>> > In my mind we can divide up the different language version into 5
>> > categories:
>> >
>> > 1.Enwp,
>> >
>> > 2.the next 6-7 (de,fr, es,jp,pt,ru..)
>> >
>> > 3.the next 20 or so, where the basic workprocesses are applied
>> >
>> > 4.the next 40-50 which are struggling to generate more input then what is
>> > vandalised
>> >
>> > 5.the rest which in reality is no viable online encyclopedias
>> >
>> > And for me no 1 priority is to accept that there are these categories,
>> and
>> > that what is applicable for cat 1 and 2 is not so for 4 and 5.
>> >
>> > I believe the grant model could easily make room for subsiding good
>> > initiatives addressing the problem for cat 4 and 5 (and perhaps 3).
>> >
>> > And I think it is very presumptuous to start talking of what technique to
>> > use and things like translation. If we open up for creative brainstorming
>> > (among the ones having the need) I think very many other ways can turn
>> up.
>> > Myself I am deeply impressed what you can create using Wikidata as a base
>> > source of info, and being from a version of type 3 I see how much my
>> > homeversion improve content with wikidata created infoboxes
>> >
>> > Anders
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Den 2018-02-24 kl. 13:51, skrev John Erling Blad:
>> >
>> >> This discussion is going to be fun! =D
>> >>
>> >> A little more than seventy Wikipedia-projects has more than 65k
>> articles,
>> >> the remaining two hundred or so are pretty small.
>> >>
>> >> What if a base set of articles were opened for paid translators? There
>> are
>> >> several lists of such base sets. We have both the thousand articles from
>> >> "List of articles every Wikipedia should have"[1] and and the ten
>> thousand
>> >> articles from the expanded list[2].
>> >>
>> >> Lets say verified good translators was paid about $0.01 per word (about
>> $1
>> >> for a 1k-article) for translating one of those articles into another
>> >> language, with perhaps a higher pay for contributors in high-cost
>> >> countries. The pay would also have to be higher for languages that lacks
>> >> good translation tools.
>> >>
>> >> I believe this would be an _enabling_ activity for the communities, as
>> >> without a base set of articles it won't be possible to build a community
>> >> at
>> >> all. By not paying for new articles, and only translating
>> well-referenced
>> >> articles, some of the disputes in the communities could be avoided.
>> >> Perhaps
>> >> we should also identify good source articles, that would be a help.
>> >> Translated articles should be above some minimum size, but they does not
>> >> have to be full translations of the source article.
>> >>
>> >> A real problem is that our existing lists of good articles other
>> projects
>> >> should have is pretty much biased towards Western World, so they need a
>> >> lot
>> >> of adjustments. Perhaps such a project would identify our inherit bias?
>> >>
>> >> [1]
>> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_every_Wikip
>> >> edia_should_have
>> >> [2]
>> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_every_Wikip
>> >> edia_should_have/Expanded
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
>> >> i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
>> >> i/Wikimedia-l
>> >> New messages to: [hidden email]
>> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> >> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
>> > i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> > New messages to: [hidden email]
>> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> New messages to: [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

Gerard Meijssen-3
In reply to this post by John Erling Blad
Hoi,
I have been involved in a translation project with professional translators
translating featured articles of the English Wikipedia. The choice for
featured articles was done because we expected that the content would not
be in dispute. We found different. Several of the translated articles were
not accepted.. one of them was about World War II.

I have also toyed with the idea of content that is not available in the
language of a Wikipedia (including English). Translation is one solution an
other solution is generating basic information from the data available at
Wikidata. The benefit is not only to our readers; they will at least be
informed up to a point and another benefit will be the quality of the
Wikipedia involved. One problem that will be fixed is the one of false
friends, when red links are linked to Wikidata, the information provided
will always be implicitly correct. Another possibility is to provide the
text of a sister Wikipedia.

We can do a better job by providing the sum of all knowledge that is
available to us.
Thanks,
      GerardM

On 25 February 2018 at 15:16, John Erling Blad <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Sorry, but this does not make sense. The core articles apply globally.
> There will although be articles in additions to a list of core articles,
> but I don't try to advocate any of those lists as the one and only list.
> Actually I have toyed with an idea of automatically create a list of core
> articles, and that would identify important articles no matter if they are
> from a big western language or a minority language.
>
> The main problem is NOT that minority languages should have articles about
> the major cities and important philosophers, *the main problem is that
> minor languages can't get started because they lack content*!
>
> On Sun, Feb 25, 2018 at 2:41 AM, Vi to <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Cultural appropriation is something different, by "forcing" the contents
> in
> > a minority language we would actually be at risk of implementing a form
> of
> > "cultural colonialism" which is the opposite of a cultural appropriation.
> >
> > NOTE: I refer to "the Western" in both cultural and "Wikipedian" sense: I
> > mean cultures with a strong presence on the web plus developed and
> > flourishing Wikipedia communities.
> >
> > Helping minority languages with funds/workforce is not bad in my opinion,
> > but I think a bottom-up process must be followed, with the "bottom" being
> > as closer as possible to relevant linguistic/cultural communities. A
> > Wikipedia full of "what the Westerns think is important" in a minority
> > non-Western language would definitely fail project scopes.
> >
> > This kind of problem almost does not arise with minority language
> > associated to Western cultures since they share the same cultural
> > backgrounds: back to my previous example the cultural background of
> > Sicilian is substantially equal to Italian one. Still, as I already
> wrote,
> > wikis in minority languages should focus on a certain aspect of wiki
> scope:
> > Wiki has roughly two main scopes: 1) sharing knowledge in a certain
> > language 2) also preserving the cultural heritage associated with
> different
> > languages. For languages mainly spoken as first language the "sharing
> > knowledge" aspect is predominant, while the second should take precedence
> > in languages whose speakers are native speakers of a "bigger" language.
> >
> > Vito
> >
> > 2018-02-24 22:58 GMT+01:00 John Erling Blad <[hidden email]>:
> >
> > > Seems like this is mostly about cultural ownership and appropriation.
> Not
> > > sure if it is possible to agree on this.
> > >
> > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 6:08 PM, Vi to <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I'll reply to the most recent email just for laziness.
> > > >
> > > > I'm doubtful for a series of reasons, most of were already expressed
> > in a
> > > > better way by others:
> > > > *a remuneration in terms of quantity will weaken the quality of
> > > > translations unless there's a strong mechanism of quality
> verification
> > > > requiring a quantity of resources comparable to translations
> > themselves;
> > > > *articles are the result of a long process which reflects cultural
> > > identity
> > > > of different communities, I'm not confident with transferring them
> to a
> > > > different "weaker" cultures. My usage of "weaker" adjective only
> > focuses
> > > > about the strength of a cultural presence on the Internet;
> > > > *articles to be translated are at high risk of reflecting the
> cultural
> > > > identity (and biases) of the Western culture;
> > > > *finally I think paid translators would hardly turn into stable
> > > > Wikipedians.
> > > >
> > > > IMHO some paid editing may be better exploited in order to digitalise
> > > texts
> > > > of unrepresented cultures (wikisource) or preserving their
> vocabularies
> > > > (wiktionary).
> > > >
> > > > Also those languages which are secondary for all their speakers
> should
> > be
> > > > dealt with in a different fashion. I, for one, am a native speaker of
> > > > specific variant of Sicilian, Sicilian is a secondary language to any
> > of
> > > > its speakers. Honestly, I'd find pointless to read the biography of
> > > > Leonardo da Vinci in Sicilian while I can find thousands of books
> about
> > > him
> > > > in Italian. Also I find this kind of translation creates a fake
> > > "literary"
> > > > language totally detached from reality: there's no "encaustic
> painting"
> > > in
> > > > Sicilian, still a Sicilian article about Leonardo will invent one.
> > > >
> > > > As a general principle we should always collect, rather than create,
> > > > knowledge.
> > > >
> > > > Vito
> > > >
> > > > 2018-02-24 16:30 GMT+01:00 John Erling Blad <[hidden email]>:
> > > >
> > > > > My reply can be read as a bit more harsh than intended, it was
> > merely a
> > > > > statement about my present experience about translators in general.
> > > > >
> > > > > The problem with lack of contributors (and translators) in a
> > > specialized
> > > > > area is that there is a small community, and within this community
> > some
> > > > > kind of selection is made. Each time a selection is repeated the
> > > > remaining
> > > > > group shrinks. Specialize the selection sufficiently many times and
> > > there
> > > > > will be no contributors (or translators) left. It is simply a game
> of
> > > > > probabilities. Thus, to make such a project work it must have a
> > > > > sufficiently broad scope for the articles. Articles about public
> > health
> > > > > services will probably work even for a pretty small language group,
> > but
> > > > > specialized medical articles might create a problem. But then you
> > find
> > > > > a retired
> > > > > orthopedic surgeon like Subas Chandra Rout…
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 4:04 PM, James Heilman <[hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > I agree with John that it is very difficult to turn a translator
> > > into a
> > > > > new
> > > > > > editor. I also agree with Jean-Philippe that it is key to have
> > > > > involvement
> > > > > > of the local projects and preferable if they lead the efforts. Of
> > the
> > > > > > languages we worked in only one explicitly requested not to be
> > > > involved /
> > > > > > have translations from TWB.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > James
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 7:59 AM, John Erling Blad <
> > [hidden email]>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > You can turn it around; give added credits for translations
> from
> > > > small
> > > > > > > language projects and into the larger ones, that is a lot more
> > > > > > interesting
> > > > > > > than strictly translating from the larger language projects.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 3:55 PM, Jean-Philippe Béland <
> > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I think the request for such projects should come from the
> > > > concerned
> > > > > > > > language projects, same for the list of articles. If not, in
> my
> > > > > simple
> > > > > > > > opinion, it is a form of coloniasm again.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Jean-Philippe Béland
> > > > > > > > Vice President, Wikimedia Canada
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 9:40 AM John Erling Blad <
> > > [hidden email]
> > > > >
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Should have added that the remaining points are somewhat
> less
> > > > > > > interesting
> > > > > > > > > in this context. Preloading a set of articles is a bad
> idea,
> > > the
> > > > > > > > > translators should be able to chose for themselves.
> Articles
> > > > should
> > > > > > > also
> > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > pretty broad, not very narrow technical or medical, ie
> > vertical
> > > > > > > articles,
> > > > > > > > > as the number of editors that can handle those will be
> pretty
> > > > > small.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > In particular: Do not believe you can turn a teanslator
> into
> > a
> > > > new
> > > > > > > > editor!
> > > > > > > > > You can although turn an existing editor into a translator.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 3:34 PM, John Erling Blad <
> > > > > [hidden email]>
> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > 1) You must start with high quality content and thus all
> > > > articles
> > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > >> extensively improved before being proposed for
> > translation.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Note that to much pressure on "quality" can easily kill
> the
> > > > > > project.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > 3) The "Content Translation" tool developed by the WMF
> made
> > > > > efforts
> > > > > > > > more
> > > > > > > > > >> efficient than handing around word documents. Would love
> > to
> > > > see
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > tool
> > > > > > > > > >> improved further such as having it support specific
> lists
> > of
> > > > > > > articles
> > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > >> are deemed ready for translation by certain groups.
> Would
> > > also
> > > > > > love
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > >> tool to have tracking metrics for these types of
> projects.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Didn't mention ContentTranslation, but it should be
> pretty
> > > > > obvious.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > 4) We used volunteer translators mostly associated with
> our
> > > > > partner
> > > > > > > > > >> Translators Without Borders. One issue we found was that
> > > > > languages
> > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > >> which
> > > > > > > > > >> their are lots of translators such as French, Spanish,
> and
> > > > > Italian
> > > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > >> is
> > > > > > > > > >> often already at least some content on many of the
> topics
> > in
> > > > > > > question.
> > > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > >> issue than becomes integration which needs an expert
> > > > Wikipedia.
> > > > > > And
> > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > >> languages in which we have little content there are
> often
> > > few
> > > > > > > > avaliable
> > > > > > > > > >> volunteers.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I used projects below 65k articles as an example, as the
> > > chance
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > competing articles are pretty low.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > 5) With respect to "paying per word" the problem is this
> > > would
> > > > > > > require
> > > > > > > > > >> significant checks and balances to make sure people are
> > > taking
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > work
> > > > > > > > > >> seriously and not simple using Google translate for the
> 70
> > > or
> > > > so
> > > > > > > > > languages
> > > > > > > > > >> in which it claims to work. We often had translations
> > > undergo
> > > > a
> > > > > > > second
> > > > > > > > > >> review and the volunteers at TWB have to pass certain
> > tests
> > > to
> > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > >> accepted.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I'n my original email I wrote "verified good
> translators".
> > It
> > > > is
> > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > simple as "Has the editor contributed other articles at
> the
> > > > > > project?"
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 2:26 PM, James Heilman <
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >> We learned a few things during the medical translation
> > > project
> > > > > > which
> > > > > > > > > >> started back in 2011:
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> 1) You must start with high quality content and thus all
> > > > > articles
> > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > >> extensively improved before being proposed for
> > translation.
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> 2) A lot of languages want "less" content than is
> present
> > on
> > > > EN
> > > > > > WP.
> > > > > > > > Thus
> > > > > > > > > >> we
> > > > > > > > > >> moved to just improving and suggesting for translation
> the
> > > > leads
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > >> English articles.
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> 3) The "Content Translation" tool developed by the WMF
> > made
> > > > > > efforts
> > > > > > > > more
> > > > > > > > > >> efficient than handing around word documents. Would love
> > to
> > > > see
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > tool
> > > > > > > > > >> improved further such as having it support specific
> lists
> > of
> > > > > > > articles
> > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > >> are deemed ready for translation by certain groups.
> Would
> > > also
> > > > > > love
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > >> tool to have tracking metrics for these types of
> projects.
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> 4) We used volunteer translators mostly associated with
> > our
> > > > > > partner
> > > > > > > > > >> Translators Without Borders. One issue we found was that
> > > > > languages
> > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > >> which
> > > > > > > > > >> their are lots of translators such as French, Spanish,
> and
> > > > > Italian
> > > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > >> is
> > > > > > > > > >> often already at least some content on many of the
> topics
> > in
> > > > > > > question.
> > > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > >> issue than becomes integration which needs an expert
> > > > Wikipedia.
> > > > > > And
> > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > >> languages in which we have little content there are
> often
> > > few
> > > > > > > > avaliable
> > > > > > > > > >> volunteers.
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> 5) With respect to "paying per word" the problem is this
> > > would
> > > > > > > require
> > > > > > > > > >> significant checks and balances to make sure people are
> > > taking
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > work
> > > > > > > > > >> seriously and not simple using Google translate for the
> 70
> > > or
> > > > so
> > > > > > > > > languages
> > > > > > > > > >> in which it claims to work. We often had translations
> > > undergo
> > > > a
> > > > > > > second
> > > > > > > > > >> review and the volunteers at TWB have to pass certain
> > tests
> > > to
> > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > >> accepted.
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> 6) I hired a coordinator for the translation project
> for a
> > > > > couple
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > >> years.
> > > > > > > > > >> The translators at TWB did not want to become
> Wikipedians
> > or
> > > > > learn
> > > > > > > how
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > >> use our systems. The coordinator created account like
> > > > TransSW001
> > > > > > > (one
> > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > >> each volunteer) and preloaded the article to be
> translated
> > > > into
> > > > > > > > Content
> > > > > > > > > >> Translation. They than gave the volunteer translator the
> > > user
> > > > > name
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > >> password to the account.
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> 7) Were are we at now? There are currently just over
> 1,000
> > > > leads
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > >> articles that have been improved and are ready for
> > > > translation.
> > > > > > This
> > > > > > > > > >> includes articles on the 440 medications that are on the
> > WHO
> > > > > > > Essential
> > > > > > > > > >> List. We have worked a bit in some 100 languages. The
> > > efforts
> > > > > have
> > > > > > > > > >> resulted
> > > > > > > > > >> in more than 5 million works translated and integrated
> > into
> > > > > > > different
> > > > > > > > > >> Wikipedias. The coordinator has unfortunately moved on
> to
> > > his
> > > > > real
> > > > > > > job
> > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > >> teaching high school students.
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> 8) The project continues but at a slower pace than
> before.
> > > The
> > > > > > > > > Wikipedian
> > > > > > > > > >> and retired orthopedic surgeon Subas Chandra Rout has
> > > > basically
> > > > > > > single
> > > > > > > > > >> handedly translated nearly all 1,000 leads into Odia a
> > > > language
> > > > > > > spoken
> > > > > > > > > by
> > > > > > > > > >> 40 million people in Eastern India. The amazing thing is
> > > that
> > > > > for
> > > > > > > many
> > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > >> these topics this is the first and only information
> online
> > > > about
> > > > > > it.
> > > > > > > > > >> Google
> > > > > > > > > >> translate does not even claim to work in this language.
> > Our
> > > > > > > > partnerships
> > > > > > > > > >> with WMTW and medical school in Taipai continue to
> > translate
> > > > > into
> > > > > > > > > Chinese.
> > > > > > > > > >> There the students translate and than their translations
> > are
> > > > > > > reviewed
> > > > > > > > by
> > > > > > > > > >> their profs before being posted. They translate in
> groups
> > > > using
> > > > > > > > hackpad
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > >> make it more social.
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> I am currently working to re invigorate the project :-)
> > > > > > > > > >> James
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 5:51 AM, John Erling Blad <
> > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> > This discussion is going to be fun! =D
> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > >> > A little more than seventy Wikipedia-projects has more
> > > than
> > > > > 65k
> > > > > > > > > >> articles,
> > > > > > > > > >> > the remaining two hundred or so are pretty small.
> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > >> > What if a base set of articles were opened for paid
> > > > > translators?
> > > > > > > > There
> > > > > > > > > >> are
> > > > > > > > > >> > several lists of such base sets. We have both the
> > thousand
> > > > > > > articles
> > > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > >> > "List of articles every Wikipedia should have"[1] and
> > and
> > > > the
> > > > > > ten
> > > > > > > > > >> thousand
> > > > > > > > > >> > articles from the expanded list[2].
> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > >> > Lets say verified good translators was paid about
> $0.01
> > > per
> > > > > word
> > > > > > > > > (about
> > > > > > > > > >> $1
> > > > > > > > > >> > for a 1k-article) for translating one of those
> articles
> > > into
> > > > > > > another
> > > > > > > > > >> > language, with perhaps a higher pay for contributors
> in
> > > > > > high-cost
> > > > > > > > > >> > countries. The pay would also have to be higher for
> > > > languages
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > lacks
> > > > > > > > > >> > good translation tools.
> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > >> > I believe this would be an _enabling_ activity for the
> > > > > > > communities,
> > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > >> > without a base set of articles it won't be possible to
> > > > build a
> > > > > > > > > >> community at
> > > > > > > > > >> > all. By not paying for new articles, and only
> > translating
> > > > > > > > > >> well-referenced
> > > > > > > > > >> > articles, some of the disputes in the communities
> could
> > be
> > > > > > > avoided.
> > > > > > > > > >> Perhaps
> > > > > > > > > >> > we should also identify good source articles, that
> would
> > > be
> > > > a
> > > > > > > help.
> > > > > > > > > >> > Translated articles should be above some minimum size,
> > but
> > > > > they
> > > > > > > does
> > > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > >> > have to be full translations of the source article.
> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > >> > A real problem is that our existing lists of good
> > articles
> > > > > other
> > > > > > > > > >> projects
> > > > > > > > > >> > should have is pretty much biased towards Western
> World,
> > > so
> > > > > they
> > > > > > > > need
> > > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > >> lot
> > > > > > > > > >> > of adjustments. Perhaps such a project would identify
> > our
> > > > > > inherit
> > > > > > > > > bias?
> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > >> > [1]
> > > > > > > > > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/List_of_articles_every_
> > > > > > > > > >> > Wikipedia_should_have
> > > > > > > > > >> > [2]
> > > > > > > > > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/List_of_articles_every_
> > > > > > > > > >> > Wikipedia_should_have/Expanded
> > > > > > > > > >> > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > >> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > > > > > >> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > > > > > >> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > > > > >> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > >> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > > > > mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > > > > > > > > ,
> > > > > > > > > >> > <mailto:[hidden email]
> > ?subject=
> > > > > > > > unsubscribe>
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> --
> > > > > > > > > >> James Heilman
> > > > > > > > > >> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> > > > > > > > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
> > > > > > > > > >> i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
> > > > > > > > > >> i/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > > > > >> New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > > > mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > > > > > > > ,
> > > > > > > > > >> <mailto:[hidden email]
> ?subject=
> > > > > > > unsubscribe>
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> and
> > > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > > mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=
> > > > > unsubscribe>
> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > > > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=
> > > > unsubscribe>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

John Erling Blad
WWII is not an universal truth. If some small country claim the Nazis was
the good guys, then they are simply wrong.

Yes there are a lot of projects where information diverge, but usually that
is because someone added material that somehow seems more appropriate for
readers in that specific language. Although sometimes the content is really
wrong, and that happen on all projects.


On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 12:51 PM, Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]
> wrote:

> Hoi,
> I have been involved in a translation project with professional translators
> translating featured articles of the English Wikipedia. The choice for
> featured articles was done because we expected that the content would not
> be in dispute. We found different. Several of the translated articles were
> not accepted.. one of them was about World War II.
>
> I have also toyed with the idea of content that is not available in the
> language of a Wikipedia (including English). Translation is one solution an
> other solution is generating basic information from the data available at
> Wikidata. The benefit is not only to our readers; they will at least be
> informed up to a point and another benefit will be the quality of the
> Wikipedia involved. One problem that will be fixed is the one of false
> friends, when red links are linked to Wikidata, the information provided
> will always be implicitly correct. Another possibility is to provide the
> text of a sister Wikipedia.
>
> We can do a better job by providing the sum of all knowledge that is
> available to us.
> Thanks,
>       GerardM
>
> On 25 February 2018 at 15:16, John Erling Blad <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Sorry, but this does not make sense. The core articles apply globally.
> > There will although be articles in additions to a list of core articles,
> > but I don't try to advocate any of those lists as the one and only list.
> > Actually I have toyed with an idea of automatically create a list of core
> > articles, and that would identify important articles no matter if they
> are
> > from a big western language or a minority language.
> >
> > The main problem is NOT that minority languages should have articles
> about
> > the major cities and important philosophers, *the main problem is that
> > minor languages can't get started because they lack content*!
> >
> > On Sun, Feb 25, 2018 at 2:41 AM, Vi to <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > Cultural appropriation is something different, by "forcing" the
> contents
> > in
> > > a minority language we would actually be at risk of implementing a form
> > of
> > > "cultural colonialism" which is the opposite of a cultural
> appropriation.
> > >
> > > NOTE: I refer to "the Western" in both cultural and "Wikipedian"
> sense: I
> > > mean cultures with a strong presence on the web plus developed and
> > > flourishing Wikipedia communities.
> > >
> > > Helping minority languages with funds/workforce is not bad in my
> opinion,
> > > but I think a bottom-up process must be followed, with the "bottom"
> being
> > > as closer as possible to relevant linguistic/cultural communities. A
> > > Wikipedia full of "what the Westerns think is important" in a minority
> > > non-Western language would definitely fail project scopes.
> > >
> > > This kind of problem almost does not arise with minority language
> > > associated to Western cultures since they share the same cultural
> > > backgrounds: back to my previous example the cultural background of
> > > Sicilian is substantially equal to Italian one. Still, as I already
> > wrote,
> > > wikis in minority languages should focus on a certain aspect of wiki
> > scope:
> > > Wiki has roughly two main scopes: 1) sharing knowledge in a certain
> > > language 2) also preserving the cultural heritage associated with
> > different
> > > languages. For languages mainly spoken as first language the "sharing
> > > knowledge" aspect is predominant, while the second should take
> precedence
> > > in languages whose speakers are native speakers of a "bigger" language.
> > >
> > > Vito
> > >
> > > 2018-02-24 22:58 GMT+01:00 John Erling Blad <[hidden email]>:
> > >
> > > > Seems like this is mostly about cultural ownership and appropriation.
> > Not
> > > > sure if it is possible to agree on this.
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 6:08 PM, Vi to <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I'll reply to the most recent email just for laziness.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm doubtful for a series of reasons, most of were already
> expressed
> > > in a
> > > > > better way by others:
> > > > > *a remuneration in terms of quantity will weaken the quality of
> > > > > translations unless there's a strong mechanism of quality
> > verification
> > > > > requiring a quantity of resources comparable to translations
> > > themselves;
> > > > > *articles are the result of a long process which reflects cultural
> > > > identity
> > > > > of different communities, I'm not confident with transferring them
> > to a
> > > > > different "weaker" cultures. My usage of "weaker" adjective only
> > > focuses
> > > > > about the strength of a cultural presence on the Internet;
> > > > > *articles to be translated are at high risk of reflecting the
> > cultural
> > > > > identity (and biases) of the Western culture;
> > > > > *finally I think paid translators would hardly turn into stable
> > > > > Wikipedians.
> > > > >
> > > > > IMHO some paid editing may be better exploited in order to
> digitalise
> > > > texts
> > > > > of unrepresented cultures (wikisource) or preserving their
> > vocabularies
> > > > > (wiktionary).
> > > > >
> > > > > Also those languages which are secondary for all their speakers
> > should
> > > be
> > > > > dealt with in a different fashion. I, for one, am a native speaker
> of
> > > > > specific variant of Sicilian, Sicilian is a secondary language to
> any
> > > of
> > > > > its speakers. Honestly, I'd find pointless to read the biography of
> > > > > Leonardo da Vinci in Sicilian while I can find thousands of books
> > about
> > > > him
> > > > > in Italian. Also I find this kind of translation creates a fake
> > > > "literary"
> > > > > language totally detached from reality: there's no "encaustic
> > painting"
> > > > in
> > > > > Sicilian, still a Sicilian article about Leonardo will invent one.
> > > > >
> > > > > As a general principle we should always collect, rather than
> create,
> > > > > knowledge.
> > > > >
> > > > > Vito
> > > > >
> > > > > 2018-02-24 16:30 GMT+01:00 John Erling Blad <[hidden email]>:
> > > > >
> > > > > > My reply can be read as a bit more harsh than intended, it was
> > > merely a
> > > > > > statement about my present experience about translators in
> general.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The problem with lack of contributors (and translators) in a
> > > > specialized
> > > > > > area is that there is a small community, and within this
> community
> > > some
> > > > > > kind of selection is made. Each time a selection is repeated the
> > > > > remaining
> > > > > > group shrinks. Specialize the selection sufficiently many times
> and
> > > > there
> > > > > > will be no contributors (or translators) left. It is simply a
> game
> > of
> > > > > > probabilities. Thus, to make such a project work it must have a
> > > > > > sufficiently broad scope for the articles. Articles about public
> > > health
> > > > > > services will probably work even for a pretty small language
> group,
> > > but
> > > > > > specialized medical articles might create a problem. But then you
> > > find
> > > > > > a retired
> > > > > > orthopedic surgeon like Subas Chandra Rout…
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 4:04 PM, James Heilman <[hidden email]
> >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > I agree with John that it is very difficult to turn a
> translator
> > > > into a
> > > > > > new
> > > > > > > editor. I also agree with Jean-Philippe that it is key to have
> > > > > > involvement
> > > > > > > of the local projects and preferable if they lead the efforts.
> Of
> > > the
> > > > > > > languages we worked in only one explicitly requested not to be
> > > > > involved /
> > > > > > > have translations from TWB.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > James
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 7:59 AM, John Erling Blad <
> > > [hidden email]>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > You can turn it around; give added credits for translations
> > from
> > > > > small
> > > > > > > > language projects and into the larger ones, that is a lot
> more
> > > > > > > interesting
> > > > > > > > than strictly translating from the larger language projects.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 3:55 PM, Jean-Philippe Béland <
> > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I think the request for such projects should come from the
> > > > > concerned
> > > > > > > > > language projects, same for the list of articles. If not,
> in
> > my
> > > > > > simple
> > > > > > > > > opinion, it is a form of coloniasm again.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Jean-Philippe Béland
> > > > > > > > > Vice President, Wikimedia Canada
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 9:40 AM John Erling Blad <
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Should have added that the remaining points are somewhat
> > less
> > > > > > > > interesting
> > > > > > > > > > in this context. Preloading a set of articles is a bad
> > idea,
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > translators should be able to chose for themselves.
> > Articles
> > > > > should
> > > > > > > > also
> > > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > pretty broad, not very narrow technical or medical, ie
> > > vertical
> > > > > > > > articles,
> > > > > > > > > > as the number of editors that can handle those will be
> > pretty
> > > > > > small.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > In particular: Do not believe you can turn a teanslator
> > into
> > > a
> > > > > new
> > > > > > > > > editor!
> > > > > > > > > > You can although turn an existing editor into a
> translator.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 3:34 PM, John Erling Blad <
> > > > > > [hidden email]>
> > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > 1) You must start with high quality content and thus
> all
> > > > > articles
> > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > >> extensively improved before being proposed for
> > > translation.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Note that to much pressure on "quality" can easily kill
> > the
> > > > > > > project.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > 3) The "Content Translation" tool developed by the WMF
> > made
> > > > > > efforts
> > > > > > > > > more
> > > > > > > > > > >> efficient than handing around word documents. Would
> love
> > > to
> > > > > see
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > tool
> > > > > > > > > > >> improved further such as having it support specific
> > lists
> > > of
> > > > > > > > articles
> > > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > >> are deemed ready for translation by certain groups.
> > Would
> > > > also
> > > > > > > love
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > >> tool to have tracking metrics for these types of
> > projects.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Didn't mention ContentTranslation, but it should be
> > pretty
> > > > > > obvious.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > 4) We used volunteer translators mostly associated with
> > our
> > > > > > partner
> > > > > > > > > > >> Translators Without Borders. One issue we found was
> that
> > > > > > languages
> > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > >> which
> > > > > > > > > > >> their are lots of translators such as French, Spanish,
> > and
> > > > > > Italian
> > > > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > > >> is
> > > > > > > > > > >> often already at least some content on many of the
> > topics
> > > in
> > > > > > > > question.
> > > > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > >> issue than becomes integration which needs an expert
> > > > > Wikipedia.
> > > > > > > And
> > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > >> languages in which we have little content there are
> > often
> > > > few
> > > > > > > > > avaliable
> > > > > > > > > > >> volunteers.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I used projects below 65k articles as an example, as
> the
> > > > chance
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > competing articles are pretty low.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > 5) With respect to "paying per word" the problem is
> this
> > > > would
> > > > > > > > require
> > > > > > > > > > >> significant checks and balances to make sure people
> are
> > > > taking
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > work
> > > > > > > > > > >> seriously and not simple using Google translate for
> the
> > 70
> > > > or
> > > > > so
> > > > > > > > > > languages
> > > > > > > > > > >> in which it claims to work. We often had translations
> > > > undergo
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > > second
> > > > > > > > > > >> review and the volunteers at TWB have to pass certain
> > > tests
> > > > to
> > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > >> accepted.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I'n my original email I wrote "verified good
> > translators".
> > > It
> > > > > is
> > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > simple as "Has the editor contributed other articles at
> > the
> > > > > > > project?"
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 2:26 PM, James Heilman <
> > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >> We learned a few things during the medical translation
> > > > project
> > > > > > > which
> > > > > > > > > > >> started back in 2011:
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >> 1) You must start with high quality content and thus
> all
> > > > > > articles
> > > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > >> extensively improved before being proposed for
> > > translation.
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >> 2) A lot of languages want "less" content than is
> > present
> > > on
> > > > > EN
> > > > > > > WP.
> > > > > > > > > Thus
> > > > > > > > > > >> we
> > > > > > > > > > >> moved to just improving and suggesting for translation
> > the
> > > > > leads
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > >> English articles.
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >> 3) The "Content Translation" tool developed by the WMF
> > > made
> > > > > > > efforts
> > > > > > > > > more
> > > > > > > > > > >> efficient than handing around word documents. Would
> love
> > > to
> > > > > see
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > tool
> > > > > > > > > > >> improved further such as having it support specific
> > lists
> > > of
> > > > > > > > articles
> > > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > >> are deemed ready for translation by certain groups.
> > Would
> > > > also
> > > > > > > love
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > >> tool to have tracking metrics for these types of
> > projects.
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >> 4) We used volunteer translators mostly associated
> with
> > > our
> > > > > > > partner
> > > > > > > > > > >> Translators Without Borders. One issue we found was
> that
> > > > > > languages
> > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > >> which
> > > > > > > > > > >> their are lots of translators such as French, Spanish,
> > and
> > > > > > Italian
> > > > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > > >> is
> > > > > > > > > > >> often already at least some content on many of the
> > topics
> > > in
> > > > > > > > question.
> > > > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > >> issue than becomes integration which needs an expert
> > > > > Wikipedia.
> > > > > > > And
> > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > >> languages in which we have little content there are
> > often
> > > > few
> > > > > > > > > avaliable
> > > > > > > > > > >> volunteers.
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >> 5) With respect to "paying per word" the problem is
> this
> > > > would
> > > > > > > > require
> > > > > > > > > > >> significant checks and balances to make sure people
> are
> > > > taking
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > work
> > > > > > > > > > >> seriously and not simple using Google translate for
> the
> > 70
> > > > or
> > > > > so
> > > > > > > > > > languages
> > > > > > > > > > >> in which it claims to work. We often had translations
> > > > undergo
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > > second
> > > > > > > > > > >> review and the volunteers at TWB have to pass certain
> > > tests
> > > > to
> > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > >> accepted.
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >> 6) I hired a coordinator for the translation project
> > for a
> > > > > > couple
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > >> years.
> > > > > > > > > > >> The translators at TWB did not want to become
> > Wikipedians
> > > or
> > > > > > learn
> > > > > > > > how
> > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > >> use our systems. The coordinator created account like
> > > > > TransSW001
> > > > > > > > (one
> > > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > >> each volunteer) and preloaded the article to be
> > translated
> > > > > into
> > > > > > > > > Content
> > > > > > > > > > >> Translation. They than gave the volunteer translator
> the
> > > > user
> > > > > > name
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > >> password to the account.
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >> 7) Were are we at now? There are currently just over
> > 1,000
> > > > > leads
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > >> articles that have been improved and are ready for
> > > > > translation.
> > > > > > > This
> > > > > > > > > > >> includes articles on the 440 medications that are on
> the
> > > WHO
> > > > > > > > Essential
> > > > > > > > > > >> List. We have worked a bit in some 100 languages. The
> > > > efforts
> > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > > > >> resulted
> > > > > > > > > > >> in more than 5 million works translated and integrated
> > > into
> > > > > > > > different
> > > > > > > > > > >> Wikipedias. The coordinator has unfortunately moved on
> > to
> > > > his
> > > > > > real
> > > > > > > > job
> > > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > >> teaching high school students.
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >> 8) The project continues but at a slower pace than
> > before.
> > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > Wikipedian
> > > > > > > > > > >> and retired orthopedic surgeon Subas Chandra Rout has
> > > > > basically
> > > > > > > > single
> > > > > > > > > > >> handedly translated nearly all 1,000 leads into Odia a
> > > > > language
> > > > > > > > spoken
> > > > > > > > > > by
> > > > > > > > > > >> 40 million people in Eastern India. The amazing thing
> is
> > > > that
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > many
> > > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > >> these topics this is the first and only information
> > online
> > > > > about
> > > > > > > it.
> > > > > > > > > > >> Google
> > > > > > > > > > >> translate does not even claim to work in this
> language.
> > > Our
> > > > > > > > > partnerships
> > > > > > > > > > >> with WMTW and medical school in Taipai continue to
> > > translate
> > > > > > into
> > > > > > > > > > Chinese.
> > > > > > > > > > >> There the students translate and than their
> translations
> > > are
> > > > > > > > reviewed
> > > > > > > > > by
> > > > > > > > > > >> their profs before being posted. They translate in
> > groups
> > > > > using
> > > > > > > > > hackpad
> > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > >> make it more social.
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >> I am currently working to re invigorate the project
> :-)
> > > > > > > > > > >> James
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >> On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 5:51 AM, John Erling Blad <
> > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >> > This discussion is going to be fun! =D
> > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > >> > A little more than seventy Wikipedia-projects has
> more
> > > > than
> > > > > > 65k
> > > > > > > > > > >> articles,
> > > > > > > > > > >> > the remaining two hundred or so are pretty small.
> > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > >> > What if a base set of articles were opened for paid
> > > > > > translators?
> > > > > > > > > There
> > > > > > > > > > >> are
> > > > > > > > > > >> > several lists of such base sets. We have both the
> > > thousand
> > > > > > > > articles
> > > > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > >> > "List of articles every Wikipedia should have"[1]
> and
> > > and
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > ten
> > > > > > > > > > >> thousand
> > > > > > > > > > >> > articles from the expanded list[2].
> > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > >> > Lets say verified good translators was paid about
> > $0.01
> > > > per
> > > > > > word
> > > > > > > > > > (about
> > > > > > > > > > >> $1
> > > > > > > > > > >> > for a 1k-article) for translating one of those
> > articles
> > > > into
> > > > > > > > another
> > > > > > > > > > >> > language, with perhaps a higher pay for contributors
> > in
> > > > > > > high-cost
> > > > > > > > > > >> > countries. The pay would also have to be higher for
> > > > > languages
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > lacks
> > > > > > > > > > >> > good translation tools.
> > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > >> > I believe this would be an _enabling_ activity for
> the
> > > > > > > > communities,
> > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > >> > without a base set of articles it won't be possible
> to
> > > > > build a
> > > > > > > > > > >> community at
> > > > > > > > > > >> > all. By not paying for new articles, and only
> > > translating
> > > > > > > > > > >> well-referenced
> > > > > > > > > > >> > articles, some of the disputes in the communities
> > could
> > > be
> > > > > > > > avoided.
> > > > > > > > > > >> Perhaps
> > > > > > > > > > >> > we should also identify good source articles, that
> > would
> > > > be
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > > help.
> > > > > > > > > > >> > Translated articles should be above some minimum
> size,
> > > but
> > > > > > they
> > > > > > > > does
> > > > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > >> > have to be full translations of the source article.
> > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > >> > A real problem is that our existing lists of good
> > > articles
> > > > > > other
> > > > > > > > > > >> projects
> > > > > > > > > > >> > should have is pretty much biased towards Western
> > World,
> > > > so
> > > > > > they
> > > > > > > > > need
> > > > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > >> lot
> > > > > > > > > > >> > of adjustments. Perhaps such a project would
> identify
> > > our
> > > > > > > inherit
> > > > > > > > > > bias?
> > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > >> > [1]
> > > > > > > > > > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/List_of_articles_every_
> > > > > > > > > > >> > Wikipedia_should_have
> > > > > > > > > > >> > [2]
> > > > > > > > > > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/List_of_articles_every_
> > > > > > > > > > >> > Wikipedia_should_have/Expanded
> > > > > > > > > > >> > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > >> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > > > > > > >> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > > > > > > >> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > > > > > >> > New messages to: [hidden email]
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> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >> --
> > > > > > > > > > >> James Heilman
> > > > > > > > > > >> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> > > > > > > > > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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> > > > > > > --
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

Amir E. Aharoni
Indeed. We can all agree that it's OK for a lot of reason to have
differences in content between projects. What these differences are is a
separate discussion.

These differences often come up when discussing translation projects in
Wikipedia, and it's important to recognize them, but it's also important
not to treat them as a blocker or to let them be too much of a distraction.


--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
‪“We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬

2018-02-27 11:40 GMT+02:00 John Erling Blad <[hidden email]>:

> WWII is not an universal truth. If some small country claim the Nazis was
> the good guys, then they are simply wrong.
>
> Yes there are a lot of projects where information diverge, but usually that
> is because someone added material that somehow seems more appropriate for
> readers in that specific language. Although sometimes the content is really
> wrong, and that happen on all projects.
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 12:51 PM, Gerard Meijssen <
> [hidden email]
> > wrote:
>
> > Hoi,
> > I have been involved in a translation project with professional
> translators
> > translating featured articles of the English Wikipedia. The choice for
> > featured articles was done because we expected that the content would not
> > be in dispute. We found different. Several of the translated articles
> were
> > not accepted.. one of them was about World War II.
> >
> > I have also toyed with the idea of content that is not available in the
> > language of a Wikipedia (including English). Translation is one solution
> an
> > other solution is generating basic information from the data available at
> > Wikidata. The benefit is not only to our readers; they will at least be
> > informed up to a point and another benefit will be the quality of the
> > Wikipedia involved. One problem that will be fixed is the one of false
> > friends, when red links are linked to Wikidata, the information provided
> > will always be implicitly correct. Another possibility is to provide the
> > text of a sister Wikipedia.
> >
> > We can do a better job by providing the sum of all knowledge that is
> > available to us.
> > Thanks,
> >       GerardM
> >
> > On 25 February 2018 at 15:16, John Erling Blad <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > Sorry, but this does not make sense. The core articles apply globally.
> > > There will although be articles in additions to a list of core
> articles,
> > > but I don't try to advocate any of those lists as the one and only
> list.
> > > Actually I have toyed with an idea of automatically create a list of
> core
> > > articles, and that would identify important articles no matter if they
> > are
> > > from a big western language or a minority language.
> > >
> > > The main problem is NOT that minority languages should have articles
> > about
> > > the major cities and important philosophers, *the main problem is that
> > > minor languages can't get started because they lack content*!
> > >
> > > On Sun, Feb 25, 2018 at 2:41 AM, Vi to <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Cultural appropriation is something different, by "forcing" the
> > contents
> > > in
> > > > a minority language we would actually be at risk of implementing a
> form
> > > of
> > > > "cultural colonialism" which is the opposite of a cultural
> > appropriation.
> > > >
> > > > NOTE: I refer to "the Western" in both cultural and "Wikipedian"
> > sense: I
> > > > mean cultures with a strong presence on the web plus developed and
> > > > flourishing Wikipedia communities.
> > > >
> > > > Helping minority languages with funds/workforce is not bad in my
> > opinion,
> > > > but I think a bottom-up process must be followed, with the "bottom"
> > being
> > > > as closer as possible to relevant linguistic/cultural communities. A
> > > > Wikipedia full of "what the Westerns think is important" in a
> minority
> > > > non-Western language would definitely fail project scopes.
> > > >
> > > > This kind of problem almost does not arise with minority language
> > > > associated to Western cultures since they share the same cultural
> > > > backgrounds: back to my previous example the cultural background of
> > > > Sicilian is substantially equal to Italian one. Still, as I already
> > > wrote,
> > > > wikis in minority languages should focus on a certain aspect of wiki
> > > scope:
> > > > Wiki has roughly two main scopes: 1) sharing knowledge in a certain
> > > > language 2) also preserving the cultural heritage associated with
> > > different
> > > > languages. For languages mainly spoken as first language the "sharing
> > > > knowledge" aspect is predominant, while the second should take
> > precedence
> > > > in languages whose speakers are native speakers of a "bigger"
> language.
> > > >
> > > > Vito
> > > >
> > > > 2018-02-24 22:58 GMT+01:00 John Erling Blad <[hidden email]>:
> > > >
> > > > > Seems like this is mostly about cultural ownership and
> appropriation.
> > > Not
> > > > > sure if it is possible to agree on this.
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 6:08 PM, Vi to <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > I'll reply to the most recent email just for laziness.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm doubtful for a series of reasons, most of were already
> > expressed
> > > > in a
> > > > > > better way by others:
> > > > > > *a remuneration in terms of quantity will weaken the quality of
> > > > > > translations unless there's a strong mechanism of quality
> > > verification
> > > > > > requiring a quantity of resources comparable to translations
> > > > themselves;
> > > > > > *articles are the result of a long process which reflects
> cultural
> > > > > identity
> > > > > > of different communities, I'm not confident with transferring
> them
> > > to a
> > > > > > different "weaker" cultures. My usage of "weaker" adjective only
> > > > focuses
> > > > > > about the strength of a cultural presence on the Internet;
> > > > > > *articles to be translated are at high risk of reflecting the
> > > cultural
> > > > > > identity (and biases) of the Western culture;
> > > > > > *finally I think paid translators would hardly turn into stable
> > > > > > Wikipedians.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > IMHO some paid editing may be better exploited in order to
> > digitalise
> > > > > texts
> > > > > > of unrepresented cultures (wikisource) or preserving their
> > > vocabularies
> > > > > > (wiktionary).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Also those languages which are secondary for all their speakers
> > > should
> > > > be
> > > > > > dealt with in a different fashion. I, for one, am a native
> speaker
> > of
> > > > > > specific variant of Sicilian, Sicilian is a secondary language to
> > any
> > > > of
> > > > > > its speakers. Honestly, I'd find pointless to read the biography
> of
> > > > > > Leonardo da Vinci in Sicilian while I can find thousands of books
> > > about
> > > > > him
> > > > > > in Italian. Also I find this kind of translation creates a fake
> > > > > "literary"
> > > > > > language totally detached from reality: there's no "encaustic
> > > painting"
> > > > > in
> > > > > > Sicilian, still a Sicilian article about Leonardo will invent
> one.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As a general principle we should always collect, rather than
> > create,
> > > > > > knowledge.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Vito
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 2018-02-24 16:30 GMT+01:00 John Erling Blad <[hidden email]>:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > My reply can be read as a bit more harsh than intended, it was
> > > > merely a
> > > > > > > statement about my present experience about translators in
> > general.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The problem with lack of contributors (and translators) in a
> > > > > specialized
> > > > > > > area is that there is a small community, and within this
> > community
> > > > some
> > > > > > > kind of selection is made. Each time a selection is repeated
> the
> > > > > > remaining
> > > > > > > group shrinks. Specialize the selection sufficiently many times
> > and
> > > > > there
> > > > > > > will be no contributors (or translators) left. It is simply a
> > game
> > > of
> > > > > > > probabilities. Thus, to make such a project work it must have a
> > > > > > > sufficiently broad scope for the articles. Articles about
> public
> > > > health
> > > > > > > services will probably work even for a pretty small language
> > group,
> > > > but
> > > > > > > specialized medical articles might create a problem. But then
> you
> > > > find
> > > > > > > a retired
> > > > > > > orthopedic surgeon like Subas Chandra Rout…
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 4:04 PM, James Heilman <
> [hidden email]
> > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I agree with John that it is very difficult to turn a
> > translator
> > > > > into a
> > > > > > > new
> > > > > > > > editor. I also agree with Jean-Philippe that it is key to
> have
> > > > > > > involvement
> > > > > > > > of the local projects and preferable if they lead the
> efforts.
> > Of
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > languages we worked in only one explicitly requested not to
> be
> > > > > > involved /
> > > > > > > > have translations from TWB.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > James
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 7:59 AM, John Erling Blad <
> > > > [hidden email]>
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > You can turn it around; give added credits for translations
> > > from
> > > > > > small
> > > > > > > > > language projects and into the larger ones, that is a lot
> > more
> > > > > > > > interesting
> > > > > > > > > than strictly translating from the larger language
> projects.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 3:55 PM, Jean-Philippe Béland <
> > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I think the request for such projects should come from
> the
> > > > > > concerned
> > > > > > > > > > language projects, same for the list of articles. If not,
> > in
> > > my
> > > > > > > simple
> > > > > > > > > > opinion, it is a form of coloniasm again.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Jean-Philippe Béland
> > > > > > > > > > Vice President, Wikimedia Canada
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 9:40 AM John Erling Blad <
> > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Should have added that the remaining points are
> somewhat
> > > less
> > > > > > > > > interesting
> > > > > > > > > > > in this context. Preloading a set of articles is a bad
> > > idea,
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > translators should be able to chose for themselves.
> > > Articles
> > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > also
> > > > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > > pretty broad, not very narrow technical or medical, ie
> > > > vertical
> > > > > > > > > articles,
> > > > > > > > > > > as the number of editors that can handle those will be
> > > pretty
> > > > > > > small.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > In particular: Do not believe you can turn a teanslator
> > > into
> > > > a
> > > > > > new
> > > > > > > > > > editor!
> > > > > > > > > > > You can although turn an existing editor into a
> > translator.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 3:34 PM, John Erling Blad <
> > > > > > > [hidden email]>
> > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > 1) You must start with high quality content and thus
> > all
> > > > > > articles
> > > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > >> extensively improved before being proposed for
> > > > translation.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Note that to much pressure on "quality" can easily
> kill
> > > the
> > > > > > > > project.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > 3) The "Content Translation" tool developed by the
> WMF
> > > made
> > > > > > > efforts
> > > > > > > > > > more
> > > > > > > > > > > >> efficient than handing around word documents. Would
> > love
> > > > to
> > > > > > see
> > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > tool
> > > > > > > > > > > >> improved further such as having it support specific
> > > lists
> > > > of
> > > > > > > > > articles
> > > > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > >> are deemed ready for translation by certain groups.
> > > Would
> > > > > also
> > > > > > > > love
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > >> tool to have tracking metrics for these types of
> > > projects.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Didn't mention ContentTranslation, but it should be
> > > pretty
> > > > > > > obvious.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > 4) We used volunteer translators mostly associated
> with
> > > our
> > > > > > > partner
> > > > > > > > > > > >> Translators Without Borders. One issue we found was
> > that
> > > > > > > languages
> > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > >> which
> > > > > > > > > > > >> their are lots of translators such as French,
> Spanish,
> > > and
> > > > > > > Italian
> > > > > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > > > >> is
> > > > > > > > > > > >> often already at least some content on many of the
> > > topics
> > > > in
> > > > > > > > > question.
> > > > > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > >> issue than becomes integration which needs an expert
> > > > > > Wikipedia.
> > > > > > > > And
> > > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > >> languages in which we have little content there are
> > > often
> > > > > few
> > > > > > > > > > avaliable
> > > > > > > > > > > >> volunteers.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I used projects below 65k articles as an example, as
> > the
> > > > > chance
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > competing articles are pretty low.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > 5) With respect to "paying per word" the problem is
> > this
> > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > require
> > > > > > > > > > > >> significant checks and balances to make sure people
> > are
> > > > > taking
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > work
> > > > > > > > > > > >> seriously and not simple using Google translate for
> > the
> > > 70
> > > > > or
> > > > > > so
> > > > > > > > > > > languages
> > > > > > > > > > > >> in which it claims to work. We often had
> translations
> > > > > undergo
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > second
> > > > > > > > > > > >> review and the volunteers at TWB have to pass
> certain
> > > > tests
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > > >> accepted.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I'n my original email I wrote "verified good
> > > translators".
> > > > It
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > > simple as "Has the editor contributed other articles
> at
> > > the
> > > > > > > > project?"
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 2:26 PM, James Heilman <
> > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >> We learned a few things during the medical
> translation
> > > > > project
> > > > > > > > which
> > > > > > > > > > > >> started back in 2011:
> > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > >> 1) You must start with high quality content and thus
> > all
> > > > > > > articles
> > > > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > >> extensively improved before being proposed for
> > > > translation.
> > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > >> 2) A lot of languages want "less" content than is
> > > present
> > > > on
> > > > > > EN
> > > > > > > > WP.
> > > > > > > > > > Thus
> > > > > > > > > > > >> we
> > > > > > > > > > > >> moved to just improving and suggesting for
> translation
> > > the
> > > > > > leads
> > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > >> English articles.
> > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > >> 3) The "Content Translation" tool developed by the
> WMF
> > > > made
> > > > > > > > efforts
> > > > > > > > > > more
> > > > > > > > > > > >> efficient than handing around word documents. Would
> > love
> > > > to
> > > > > > see
> > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > tool
> > > > > > > > > > > >> improved further such as having it support specific
> > > lists
> > > > of
> > > > > > > > > articles
> > > > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > >> are deemed ready for translation by certain groups.
> > > Would
> > > > > also
> > > > > > > > love
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > >> tool to have tracking metrics for these types of
> > > projects.
> > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > >> 4) We used volunteer translators mostly associated
> > with
> > > > our
> > > > > > > > partner
> > > > > > > > > > > >> Translators Without Borders. One issue we found was
> > that
> > > > > > > languages
> > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > >> which
> > > > > > > > > > > >> their are lots of translators such as French,
> Spanish,
> > > and
> > > > > > > Italian
> > > > > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > > > >> is
> > > > > > > > > > > >> often already at least some content on many of the
> > > topics
> > > > in
> > > > > > > > > question.
> > > > > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > >> issue than becomes integration which needs an expert
> > > > > > Wikipedia.
> > > > > > > > And
> > > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > >> languages in which we have little content there are
> > > often
> > > > > few
> > > > > > > > > > avaliable
> > > > > > > > > > > >> volunteers.
> > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > >> 5) With respect to "paying per word" the problem is
> > this
> > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > require
> > > > > > > > > > > >> significant checks and balances to make sure people
> > are
> > > > > taking
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > work
> > > > > > > > > > > >> seriously and not simple using Google translate for
> > the
> > > 70
> > > > > or
> > > > > > so
> > > > > > > > > > > languages
> > > > > > > > > > > >> in which it claims to work. We often had
> translations
> > > > > undergo
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > second
> > > > > > > > > > > >> review and the volunteers at TWB have to pass
> certain
> > > > tests
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > > >> accepted.
> > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > >> 6) I hired a coordinator for the translation project
> > > for a
> > > > > > > couple
> > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > >> years.
> > > > > > > > > > > >> The translators at TWB did not want to become
> > > Wikipedians
> > > > or
> > > > > > > learn
> > > > > > > > > how
> > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > >> use our systems. The coordinator created account
> like
> > > > > > TransSW001
> > > > > > > > > (one
> > > > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > >> each volunteer) and preloaded the article to be
> > > translated
> > > > > > into
> > > > > > > > > > Content
> > > > > > > > > > > >> Translation. They than gave the volunteer translator
> > the
> > > > > user
> > > > > > > name
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > >> password to the account.
> > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > >> 7) Were are we at now? There are currently just over
> > > 1,000
> > > > > > leads
> > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > >> articles that have been improved and are ready for
> > > > > > translation.
> > > > > > > > This
> > > > > > > > > > > >> includes articles on the 440 medications that are on
> > the
> > > > WHO
> > > > > > > > > Essential
> > > > > > > > > > > >> List. We have worked a bit in some 100 languages.
> The
> > > > > efforts
> > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > > > > >> resulted
> > > > > > > > > > > >> in more than 5 million works translated and
> integrated
> > > > into
> > > > > > > > > different
> > > > > > > > > > > >> Wikipedias. The coordinator has unfortunately moved
> on
> > > to
> > > > > his
> > > > > > > real
> > > > > > > > > job
> > > > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > >> teaching high school students.
> > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > >> 8) The project continues but at a slower pace than
> > > before.
> > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > Wikipedian
> > > > > > > > > > > >> and retired orthopedic surgeon Subas Chandra Rout
> has
> > > > > > basically
> > > > > > > > > single
> > > > > > > > > > > >> handedly translated nearly all 1,000 leads into
> Odia a
> > > > > > language
> > > > > > > > > spoken
> > > > > > > > > > > by
> > > > > > > > > > > >> 40 million people in Eastern India. The amazing
> thing
> > is
> > > > > that
> > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > many
> > > > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > >> these topics this is the first and only information
> > > online
> > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > it.
> > > > > > > > > > > >> Google
> > > > > > > > > > > >> translate does not even claim to work in this
> > language.
> > > > Our
> > > > > > > > > > partnerships
> > > > > > > > > > > >> with WMTW and medical school in Taipai continue to
> > > > translate
> > > > > > > into
> > > > > > > > > > > Chinese.
> > > > > > > > > > > >> There the students translate and than their
> > translations
> > > > are
> > > > > > > > > reviewed
> > > > > > > > > > by
> > > > > > > > > > > >> their profs before being posted. They translate in
> > > groups
> > > > > > using
> > > > > > > > > > hackpad
> > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > >> make it more social.
> > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > >> I am currently working to re invigorate the project
> > :-)
> > > > > > > > > > > >> James
> > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > >> On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 5:51 AM, John Erling Blad <
> > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > This discussion is going to be fun! =D
> > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > A little more than seventy Wikipedia-projects has
> > more
> > > > > than
> > > > > > > 65k
> > > > > > > > > > > >> articles,
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > the remaining two hundred or so are pretty small.
> > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > What if a base set of articles were opened for
> paid
> > > > > > > translators?
> > > > > > > > > > There
> > > > > > > > > > > >> are
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > several lists of such base sets. We have both the
> > > > thousand
> > > > > > > > > articles
> > > > > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > "List of articles every Wikipedia should have"[1]
> > and
> > > > and
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > ten
> > > > > > > > > > > >> thousand
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > articles from the expanded list[2].
> > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > Lets say verified good translators was paid about
> > > $0.01
> > > > > per
> > > > > > > word
> > > > > > > > > > > (about
> > > > > > > > > > > >> $1
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > for a 1k-article) for translating one of those
> > > articles
> > > > > into
> > > > > > > > > another
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > language, with perhaps a higher pay for
> contributors
> > > in
> > > > > > > > high-cost
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > countries. The pay would also have to be higher
> for
> > > > > > languages
> > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > lacks
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > good translation tools.
> > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > I believe this would be an _enabling_ activity for
> > the
> > > > > > > > > communities,
> > > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > without a base set of articles it won't be
> possible
> > to
> > > > > > build a
> > > > > > > > > > > >> community at
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > all. By not paying for new articles, and only
> > > > translating
> > > > > > > > > > > >> well-referenced
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > articles, some of the disputes in the communities
> > > could
> > > > be
> > > > > > > > > avoided.
> > > > > > > > > > > >> Perhaps
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > we should also identify good source articles, that
> > > would
> > > > > be
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > help.
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > Translated articles should be above some minimum
> > size,
> > > > but
> > > > > > > they
> > > > > > > > > does
> > > > > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > have to be full translations of the source
> article.
> > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > A real problem is that our existing lists of good
> > > > articles
> > > > > > > other
> > > > > > > > > > > >> projects
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > should have is pretty much biased towards Western
> > > World,
> > > > > so
> > > > > > > they
> > > > > > > > > > need
> > > > > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > > >> lot
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > of adjustments. Perhaps such a project would
> > identify
> > > > our
> > > > > > > > inherit
> > > > > > > > > > > bias?
> > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > [1]
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/List_of_articles_every_
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > Wikipedia_should_have
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > [2]
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/List_of_articles_every_
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > Wikipedia_should_have/Expanded
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > > > > > > mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > > > > > > > > > > ,
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > <mailto:[hidden email]
> > > > ?subject=
> > > > > > > > > > unsubscribe>
> > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > >> --
> > > > > > > > > > > >> James Heilman
> > > > > > > > > > > >> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> > > > > > > > > > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
> > > > > > > > > > > >> i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
> > > > > > > > > > > >> i/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > > > > > > >> New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > > > > > mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > > > > > > > > > ,
> > > > > > > > > > > >> <mailto:[hidden email]
> > > ?subject=
> > > > > > > > > unsubscribe>
> > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/
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> > > and
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> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > James Heilman
> > > > > > > > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

Gnangarra
In reply to this post by John Erling Blad
>
> ​ WWII is not an universal truth. If some small country claim the Nazis
> was
> the good guys, then they are simply wrong.
>

​No even thats not entirely true for some countries WWII in Europe was foot
note, for others WWII was the trigger for escaping colonial rule. Languages
related to individual cultures do have different perspectives on events
​even on en.wp some FA can tend to have bias to US/UK perspective on
events. There is no one truth for history its all about perspectives,
about the significance of differing events, and the impact those events had.

Even when it comes to less disputed topics like biota there can
differences, take Kangaroo there is referred to an Aboriginal Australian
word but in reality there are over 300 different Australian Languages and
each has their own name for a kangaroo.  They each also have different
knowledge and information simply because of the different environmental
conditions.

Paid translations is not the ideal format, it even has flaws if money is to
be spent then making tools and support projects that enable translations.
Translations risk being interpreted at paternalism with a colonial language
deciding how an indigenous language should speak about a subject.


> ​
>
>
On 27 February 2018 at 17:40, John Erling Blad <[hidden email]> wrote:

> WWII is not an universal truth. If some small country claim the Nazis was
> the good guys, then they are simply wrong.
>
> Yes there are a lot of projects where information diverge, but usually that
> is because someone added material that somehow seems more appropriate for
> readers in that specific language. Although sometimes the content is really
> wrong, and that happen on all projects.
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 12:51 PM, Gerard Meijssen <
> [hidden email]
> > wrote:
>
> > Hoi,
> > I have been involved in a translation project with professional
> translators
> > translating featured articles of the English Wikipedia. The choice for
> > featured articles was done because we expected that the content would not
> > be in dispute. We found different. Several of the translated articles
> were
> > not accepted.. one of them was about World War II.
> >
> > I have also toyed with the idea of content that is not available in the
> > language of a Wikipedia (including English). Translation is one solution
> an
> > other solution is generating basic information from the data available at
> > Wikidata. The benefit is not only to our readers; they will at least be
> > informed up to a point and another benefit will be the quality of the
> > Wikipedia involved. One problem that will be fixed is the one of false
> > friends, when red links are linked to Wikidata, the information provided
> > will always be implicitly correct. Another possibility is to provide the
> > text of a sister Wikipedia.
> >
> > We can do a better job by providing the sum of all knowledge that is
> > available to us.
> > Thanks,
> >       GerardM
> >
> > On 25 February 2018 at 15:16, John Erling Blad <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > Sorry, but this does not make sense. The core articles apply globally.
> > > There will although be articles in additions to a list of core
> articles,
> > > but I don't try to advocate any of those lists as the one and only
> list.
> > > Actually I have toyed with an idea of automatically create a list of
> core
> > > articles, and that would identify important articles no matter if they
> > are
> > > from a big western language or a minority language.
> > >
> > > The main problem is NOT that minority languages should have articles
> > about
> > > the major cities and important philosophers, *the main problem is that
> > > minor languages can't get started because they lack content*!
> > >
> > > On Sun, Feb 25, 2018 at 2:41 AM, Vi to <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Cultural appropriation is something different, by "forcing" the
> > contents
> > > in
> > > > a minority language we would actually be at risk of implementing a
> form
> > > of
> > > > "cultural colonialism" which is the opposite of a cultural
> > appropriation.
> > > >
> > > > NOTE: I refer to "the Western" in both cultural and "Wikipedian"
> > sense: I
> > > > mean cultures with a strong presence on the web plus developed and
> > > > flourishing Wikipedia communities.
> > > >
> > > > Helping minority languages with funds/workforce is not bad in my
> > opinion,
> > > > but I think a bottom-up process must be followed, with the "bottom"
> > being
> > > > as closer as possible to relevant linguistic/cultural communities. A
> > > > Wikipedia full of "what the Westerns think is important" in a
> minority
> > > > non-Western language would definitely fail project scopes.
> > > >
> > > > This kind of problem almost does not arise with minority language
> > > > associated to Western cultures since they share the same cultural
> > > > backgrounds: back to my previous example the cultural background of
> > > > Sicilian is substantially equal to Italian one. Still, as I already
> > > wrote,
> > > > wikis in minority languages should focus on a certain aspect of wiki
> > > scope:
> > > > Wiki has roughly two main scopes: 1) sharing knowledge in a certain
> > > > language 2) also preserving the cultural heritage associated with
> > > different
> > > > languages. For languages mainly spoken as first language the "sharing
> > > > knowledge" aspect is predominant, while the second should take
> > precedence
> > > > in languages whose speakers are native speakers of a "bigger"
> language.
> > > >
> > > > Vito
> > > >
> > > > 2018-02-24 22:58 GMT+01:00 John Erling Blad <[hidden email]>:
> > > >
> > > > > Seems like this is mostly about cultural ownership and
> appropriation.
> > > Not
> > > > > sure if it is possible to agree on this.
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 6:08 PM, Vi to <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > I'll reply to the most recent email just for laziness.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm doubtful for a series of reasons, most of were already
> > expressed
> > > > in a
> > > > > > better way by others:
> > > > > > *a remuneration in terms of quantity will weaken the quality of
> > > > > > translations unless there's a strong mechanism of quality
> > > verification
> > > > > > requiring a quantity of resources comparable to translations
> > > > themselves;
> > > > > > *articles are the result of a long process which reflects
> cultural
> > > > > identity
> > > > > > of different communities, I'm not confident with transferring
> them
> > > to a
> > > > > > different "weaker" cultures. My usage of "weaker" adjective only
> > > > focuses
> > > > > > about the strength of a cultural presence on the Internet;
> > > > > > *articles to be translated are at high risk of reflecting the
> > > cultural
> > > > > > identity (and biases) of the Western culture;
> > > > > > *finally I think paid translators would hardly turn into stable
> > > > > > Wikipedians.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > IMHO some paid editing may be better exploited in order to
> > digitalise
> > > > > texts
> > > > > > of unrepresented cultures (wikisource) or preserving their
> > > vocabularies
> > > > > > (wiktionary).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Also those languages which are secondary for all their speakers
> > > should
> > > > be
> > > > > > dealt with in a different fashion. I, for one, am a native
> speaker
> > of
> > > > > > specific variant of Sicilian, Sicilian is a secondary language to
> > any
> > > > of
> > > > > > its speakers. Honestly, I'd find pointless to read the biography
> of
> > > > > > Leonardo da Vinci in Sicilian while I can find thousands of books
> > > about
> > > > > him
> > > > > > in Italian. Also I find this kind of translation creates a fake
> > > > > "literary"
> > > > > > language totally detached from reality: there's no "encaustic
> > > painting"
> > > > > in
> > > > > > Sicilian, still a Sicilian article about Leonardo will invent
> one.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As a general principle we should always collect, rather than
> > create,
> > > > > > knowledge.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Vito
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 2018-02-24 16:30 GMT+01:00 John Erling Blad <[hidden email]>:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > My reply can be read as a bit more harsh than intended, it was
> > > > merely a
> > > > > > > statement about my present experience about translators in
> > general.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The problem with lack of contributors (and translators) in a
> > > > > specialized
> > > > > > > area is that there is a small community, and within this
> > community
> > > > some
> > > > > > > kind of selection is made. Each time a selection is repeated
> the
> > > > > > remaining
> > > > > > > group shrinks. Specialize the selection sufficiently many times
> > and
> > > > > there
> > > > > > > will be no contributors (or translators) left. It is simply a
> > game
> > > of
> > > > > > > probabilities. Thus, to make such a project work it must have a
> > > > > > > sufficiently broad scope for the articles. Articles about
> public
> > > > health
> > > > > > > services will probably work even for a pretty small language
> > group,
> > > > but
> > > > > > > specialized medical articles might create a problem. But then
> you
> > > > find
> > > > > > > a retired
> > > > > > > orthopedic surgeon like Subas Chandra Rout…
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 4:04 PM, James Heilman <
> [hidden email]
> > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I agree with John that it is very difficult to turn a
> > translator
> > > > > into a
> > > > > > > new
> > > > > > > > editor. I also agree with Jean-Philippe that it is key to
> have
> > > > > > > involvement
> > > > > > > > of the local projects and preferable if they lead the
> efforts.
> > Of
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > languages we worked in only one explicitly requested not to
> be
> > > > > > involved /
> > > > > > > > have translations from TWB.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > James
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 7:59 AM, John Erling Blad <
> > > > [hidden email]>
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > You can turn it around; give added credits for translations
> > > from
> > > > > > small
> > > > > > > > > language projects and into the larger ones, that is a lot
> > more
> > > > > > > > interesting
> > > > > > > > > than strictly translating from the larger language
> projects.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 3:55 PM, Jean-Philippe Béland <
> > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I think the request for such projects should come from
> the
> > > > > > concerned
> > > > > > > > > > language projects, same for the list of articles. If not,
> > in
> > > my
> > > > > > > simple
> > > > > > > > > > opinion, it is a form of coloniasm again.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Jean-Philippe Béland
> > > > > > > > > > Vice President, Wikimedia Canada
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 9:40 AM John Erling Blad <
> > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Should have added that the remaining points are
> somewhat
> > > less
> > > > > > > > > interesting
> > > > > > > > > > > in this context. Preloading a set of articles is a bad
> > > idea,
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > translators should be able to chose for themselves.
> > > Articles
> > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > also
> > > > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > > pretty broad, not very narrow technical or medical, ie
> > > > vertical
> > > > > > > > > articles,
> > > > > > > > > > > as the number of editors that can handle those will be
> > > pretty
> > > > > > > small.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > In particular: Do not believe you can turn a teanslator
> > > into
> > > > a
> > > > > > new
> > > > > > > > > > editor!
> > > > > > > > > > > You can although turn an existing editor into a
> > translator.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 3:34 PM, John Erling Blad <
> > > > > > > [hidden email]>
> > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > 1) You must start with high quality content and thus
> > all
> > > > > > articles
> > > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > >> extensively improved before being proposed for
> > > > translation.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Note that to much pressure on "quality" can easily
> kill
> > > the
> > > > > > > > project.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > 3) The "Content Translation" tool developed by the
> WMF
> > > made
> > > > > > > efforts
> > > > > > > > > > more
> > > > > > > > > > > >> efficient than handing around word documents. Would
> > love
> > > > to
> > > > > > see
> > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > tool
> > > > > > > > > > > >> improved further such as having it support specific
> > > lists
> > > > of
> > > > > > > > > articles
> > > > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > >> are deemed ready for translation by certain groups.
> > > Would
> > > > > also
> > > > > > > > love
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > >> tool to have tracking metrics for these types of
> > > projects.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Didn't mention ContentTranslation, but it should be
> > > pretty
> > > > > > > obvious.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > 4) We used volunteer translators mostly associated
> with
> > > our
> > > > > > > partner
> > > > > > > > > > > >> Translators Without Borders. One issue we found was
> > that
> > > > > > > languages
> > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > >> which
> > > > > > > > > > > >> their are lots of translators such as French,
> Spanish,
> > > and
> > > > > > > Italian
> > > > > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > > > >> is
> > > > > > > > > > > >> often already at least some content on many of the
> > > topics
> > > > in
> > > > > > > > > question.
> > > > > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > >> issue than becomes integration which needs an expert
> > > > > > Wikipedia.
> > > > > > > > And
> > > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > >> languages in which we have little content there are
> > > often
> > > > > few
> > > > > > > > > > avaliable
> > > > > > > > > > > >> volunteers.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I used projects below 65k articles as an example, as
> > the
> > > > > chance
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > competing articles are pretty low.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > 5) With respect to "paying per word" the problem is
> > this
> > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > require
> > > > > > > > > > > >> significant checks and balances to make sure people
> > are
> > > > > taking
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > work
> > > > > > > > > > > >> seriously and not simple using Google translate for
> > the
> > > 70
> > > > > or
> > > > > > so
> > > > > > > > > > > languages
> > > > > > > > > > > >> in which it claims to work. We often had
> translations
> > > > > undergo
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > second
> > > > > > > > > > > >> review and the volunteers at TWB have to pass
> certain
> > > > tests
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > > >> accepted.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I'n my original email I wrote "verified good
> > > translators".
> > > > It
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > > simple as "Has the editor contributed other articles
> at
> > > the
> > > > > > > > project?"
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 2:26 PM, James Heilman <
> > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >> We learned a few things during the medical
> translation
> > > > > project
> > > > > > > > which
> > > > > > > > > > > >> started back in 2011:
> > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > >> 1) You must start with high quality content and thus
> > all
> > > > > > > articles
> > > > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > >> extensively improved before being proposed for
> > > > translation.
> > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > >> 2) A lot of languages want "less" content than is
> > > present
> > > > on
> > > > > > EN
> > > > > > > > WP.
> > > > > > > > > > Thus
> > > > > > > > > > > >> we
> > > > > > > > > > > >> moved to just improving and suggesting for
> translation
> > > the
> > > > > > leads
> > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > >> English articles.
> > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > >> 3) The "Content Translation" tool developed by the
> WMF
> > > > made
> > > > > > > > efforts
> > > > > > > > > > more
> > > > > > > > > > > >> efficient than handing around word documents. Would
> > love
> > > > to
> > > > > > see
> > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > tool
> > > > > > > > > > > >> improved further such as having it support specific
> > > lists
> > > > of
> > > > > > > > > articles
> > > > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > >> are deemed ready for translation by certain groups.
> > > Would
> > > > > also
> > > > > > > > love
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > >> tool to have tracking metrics for these types of
> > > projects.
> > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > >> 4) We used volunteer translators mostly associated
> > with
> > > > our
> > > > > > > > partner
> > > > > > > > > > > >> Translators Without Borders. One issue we found was
> > that
> > > > > > > languages
> > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > >> which
> > > > > > > > > > > >> their are lots of translators such as French,
> Spanish,
> > > and
> > > > > > > Italian
> > > > > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > > > >> is
> > > > > > > > > > > >> often already at least some content on many of the
> > > topics
> > > > in
> > > > > > > > > question.
> > > > > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > >> issue than becomes integration which needs an expert
> > > > > > Wikipedia.
> > > > > > > > And
> > > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > >> languages in which we have little content there are
> > > often
> > > > > few
> > > > > > > > > > avaliable
> > > > > > > > > > > >> volunteers.
> > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > >> 5) With respect to "paying per word" the problem is
> > this
> > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > require
> > > > > > > > > > > >> significant checks and balances to make sure people
> > are
> > > > > taking
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > work
> > > > > > > > > > > >> seriously and not simple using Google translate for
> > the
> > > 70
> > > > > or
> > > > > > so
> > > > > > > > > > > languages
> > > > > > > > > > > >> in which it claims to work. We often had
> translations
> > > > > undergo
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > second
> > > > > > > > > > > >> review and the volunteers at TWB have to pass
> certain
> > > > tests
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > > >> accepted.
> > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > >> 6) I hired a coordinator for the translation project
> > > for a
> > > > > > > couple
> > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > >> years.
> > > > > > > > > > > >> The translators at TWB did not want to become
> > > Wikipedians
> > > > or
> > > > > > > learn
> > > > > > > > > how
> > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > >> use our systems. The coordinator created account
> like
> > > > > > TransSW001
> > > > > > > > > (one
> > > > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > >> each volunteer) and preloaded the article to be
> > > translated
> > > > > > into
> > > > > > > > > > Content
> > > > > > > > > > > >> Translation. They than gave the volunteer translator
> > the
> > > > > user
> > > > > > > name
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > >> password to the account.
> > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > >> 7) Were are we at now? There are currently just over
> > > 1,000
> > > > > > leads
> > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > >> articles that have been improved and are ready for
> > > > > > translation.
> > > > > > > > This
> > > > > > > > > > > >> includes articles on the 440 medications that are on
> > the
> > > > WHO
> > > > > > > > > Essential
> > > > > > > > > > > >> List. We have worked a bit in some 100 languages.
> The
> > > > > efforts
> > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > > > > >> resulted
> > > > > > > > > > > >> in more than 5 million works translated and
> integrated
> > > > into
> > > > > > > > > different
> > > > > > > > > > > >> Wikipedias. The coordinator has unfortunately moved
> on
> > > to
> > > > > his
> > > > > > > real
> > > > > > > > > job
> > > > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > >> teaching high school students.
> > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > >> 8) The project continues but at a slower pace than
> > > before.
> > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > Wikipedian
> > > > > > > > > > > >> and retired orthopedic surgeon Subas Chandra Rout
> has
> > > > > > basically
> > > > > > > > > single
> > > > > > > > > > > >> handedly translated nearly all 1,000 leads into
> Odia a
> > > > > > language
> > > > > > > > > spoken
> > > > > > > > > > > by
> > > > > > > > > > > >> 40 million people in Eastern India. The amazing
> thing
> > is
> > > > > that
> > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > many
> > > > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > >> these topics this is the first and only information
> > > online
> > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > it.
> > > > > > > > > > > >> Google
> > > > > > > > > > > >> translate does not even claim to work in this
> > language.
> > > > Our
> > > > > > > > > > partnerships
> > > > > > > > > > > >> with WMTW and medical school in Taipai continue to
> > > > translate
> > > > > > > into
> > > > > > > > > > > Chinese.
> > > > > > > > > > > >> There the students translate and than their
> > translations
> > > > are
> > > > > > > > > reviewed
> > > > > > > > > > by
> > > > > > > > > > > >> their profs before being posted. They translate in
> > > groups
> > > > > > using
> > > > > > > > > > hackpad
> > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > >> make it more social.
> > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > >> I am currently working to re invigorate the project
> > :-)
> > > > > > > > > > > >> James
> > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > >> On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 5:51 AM, John Erling Blad <
> > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > This discussion is going to be fun! =D
> > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > A little more than seventy Wikipedia-projects has
> > more
> > > > > than
> > > > > > > 65k
> > > > > > > > > > > >> articles,
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > the remaining two hundred or so are pretty small.
> > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > What if a base set of articles were opened for
> paid
> > > > > > > translators?
> > > > > > > > > > There
> > > > > > > > > > > >> are
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > several lists of such base sets. We have both the
> > > > thousand
> > > > > > > > > articles
> > > > > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > "List of articles every Wikipedia should have"[1]
> > and
> > > > and
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > ten
> > > > > > > > > > > >> thousand
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > articles from the expanded list[2].
> > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > Lets say verified good translators was paid about
> > > $0.01
> > > > > per
> > > > > > > word
> > > > > > > > > > > (about
> > > > > > > > > > > >> $1
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > for a 1k-article) for translating one of those
> > > articles
> > > > > into
> > > > > > > > > another
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > language, with perhaps a higher pay for
> contributors
> > > in
> > > > > > > > high-cost
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > countries. The pay would also have to be higher
> for
> > > > > > languages
> > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > lacks
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > good translation tools.
> > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > I believe this would be an _enabling_ activity for
> > the
> > > > > > > > > communities,
> > > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > without a base set of articles it won't be
> possible
> > to
> > > > > > build a
> > > > > > > > > > > >> community at
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > all. By not paying for new articles, and only
> > > > translating
> > > > > > > > > > > >> well-referenced
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > articles, some of the disputes in the communities
> > > could
> > > > be
> > > > > > > > > avoided.
> > > > > > > > > > > >> Perhaps
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > we should also identify good source articles, that
> > > would
> > > > > be
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > help.
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > Translated articles should be above some minimum
> > size,
> > > > but
> > > > > > > they
> > > > > > > > > does
> > > > > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > have to be full translations of the source
> article.
> > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > A real problem is that our existing lists of good
> > > > articles
> > > > > > > other
> > > > > > > > > > > >> projects
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > should have is pretty much biased towards Western
> > > World,
> > > > > so
> > > > > > > they
> > > > > > > > > > need
> > > > > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > > >> lot
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > of adjustments. Perhaps such a project would
> > identify
> > > > our
> > > > > > > > inherit
> > > > > > > > > > > bias?
> > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > [1]
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/List_of_articles_every_
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > Wikipedia_should_have
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > [2]
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/List_of_articles_every_
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > Wikipedia_should_have/Expanded
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > > > > > > mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > > > > > > > > > > ,
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > <mailto:[hidden email]
> > > > ?subject=
> > > > > > > > > > unsubscribe>
> > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > >> --
> > > > > > > > > > > >> James Heilman
> > > > > > > > > > > >> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> > > > > > > > > > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
> > > > > > > > > > > >> i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
> > > > > > > > > > > >> i/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > > > > > > >> New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > > > > > mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > > > > > > > > > ,
> > > > > > > > > > > >> <mailto:[hidden email]
> > > ?subject=
> > > > > > > > > unsubscribe>
> > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > and
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> > > > > > > > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
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> > > > > > > unsubscribe>
> > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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> > > > > > > > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > > > > > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
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> > > > > > > mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > > > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=
> > > > > > unsubscribe>
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > > > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > > > > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > > mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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> > > > > unsubscribe>
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > James Heilman
> > > > > > > > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > > > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
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> > > > unsubscribe>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
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> > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

mathieu lovato stumpf guntz
In reply to this post by John Erling Blad
I'm not against the idea of paid translation /per se/, but it shouldn't
be managed by the WMF, should it be only to ensure that it doesn't cross
too far the line of non-intervention regarding editorial decisions.

Debate can go on to which level it stands with this line, but to my mind
WMF always have been mainly about hosting works, not about what will be
published by who under which (non-)remunerated conditions. I think that
it is important that it stay so for example due to legal reasons
regarding responsibility of what is stated in this works.

 From this perspective, it would be probably better to have locale
collective initiatives which decide what seems the more important to be
translated and means to achieve them, should it be through paid editing
with money coming from the said collective itself. Directly financing
that kind of initiative would blur the line of the hosting position I
think. But giving visibility to this kind of locale fund raising
initiatives could be a donation in kind that would be maybe less
problematic, wouldn't it?


Le 24/02/2018 à 13:51, John Erling Blad a écrit :

> This discussion is going to be fun! =D
>
> A little more than seventy Wikipedia-projects has more than 65k articles,
> the remaining two hundred or so are pretty small.
>
> What if a base set of articles were opened for paid translators? There are
> several lists of such base sets. We have both the thousand articles from
> "List of articles every Wikipedia should have"[1] and and the ten thousand
> articles from the expanded list[2].
>
> Lets say verified good translators was paid about $0.01 per word (about $1
> for a 1k-article) for translating one of those articles into another
> language, with perhaps a higher pay for contributors in high-cost
> countries. The pay would also have to be higher for languages that lacks
> good translation tools.
>
> I believe this would be an _enabling_ activity for the communities, as
> without a base set of articles it won't be possible to build a community at
> all. By not paying for new articles, and only translating well-referenced
> articles, some of the disputes in the communities could be avoided. Perhaps
> we should also identify good source articles, that would be a help.
> Translated articles should be above some minimum size, but they does not
> have to be full translations of the source article.
>
> A real problem is that our existing lists of good articles other projects
> should have is pretty much biased towards Western World, so they need a lot
> of adjustments. Perhaps such a project would identify our inherit bias?
>
> [1]
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_every_Wikipedia_should_have
> [2]
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_every_Wikipedia_should_have/Expanded
> _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

Gnangarra
Agree with mathieo it needs to be something driven by the receiving
language community with WMF support rather than something being pushed in
to communities from the WMF or other projects.   Such if the Swahili
community thought that having say medical articles translated was something
it felt was needed then the WMF could support by assisting with tools, and
facilities to make it happen.

On 27 February 2018 at 18:42, mathieu stumpf guntz <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> I'm not against the idea of paid translation /per se/, but it shouldn't be
> managed by the WMF, should it be only to ensure that it doesn't cross too
> far the line of non-intervention regarding editorial decisions.
>
> Debate can go on to which level it stands with this line, but to my mind
> WMF always have been mainly about hosting works, not about what will be
> published by who under which (non-)remunerated conditions. I think that it
> is important that it stay so for example due to legal reasons regarding
> responsibility of what is stated in this works.
>
> From this perspective, it would be probably better to have locale
> collective initiatives which decide what seems the more important to be
> translated and means to achieve them, should it be through paid editing
> with money coming from the said collective itself. Directly financing that
> kind of initiative would blur the line of the hosting position I think. But
> giving visibility to this kind of locale fund raising initiatives could be
> a donation in kind that would be maybe less problematic, wouldn't it?
>
>
>
> Le 24/02/2018 à 13:51, John Erling Blad a écrit :
>
>> This discussion is going to be fun! =D
>>
>> A little more than seventy Wikipedia-projects has more than 65k articles,
>> the remaining two hundred or so are pretty small.
>>
>> What if a base set of articles were opened for paid translators? There are
>> several lists of such base sets. We have both the thousand articles from
>> "List of articles every Wikipedia should have"[1] and and the ten thousand
>> articles from the expanded list[2].
>>
>> Lets say verified good translators was paid about $0.01 per word (about $1
>> for a 1k-article) for translating one of those articles into another
>> language, with perhaps a higher pay for contributors in high-cost
>> countries. The pay would also have to be higher for languages that lacks
>> good translation tools.
>>
>> I believe this would be an _enabling_ activity for the communities, as
>> without a base set of articles it won't be possible to build a community
>> at
>> all. By not paying for new articles, and only translating well-referenced
>> articles, some of the disputes in the communities could be avoided.
>> Perhaps
>> we should also identify good source articles, that would be a help.
>> Translated articles should be above some minimum size, but they does not
>> have to be full translations of the source article.
>>
>> A real problem is that our existing lists of good articles other projects
>> should have is pretty much biased towards Western World, so they need a
>> lot
>> of adjustments. Perhaps such a project would identify our inherit bias?
>>
>> [1]
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_every_Wikip
>> edia_should_have
>> [2]
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_every_Wikip
>> edia_should_have/Expanded
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
>> i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
>> i/Wikimedia-l
>> New messages to: [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
> i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
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>



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

mathieu lovato stumpf guntz
In reply to this post by Vi to


Le 24/02/2018 à 18:08, Vi to a écrit :
> *finally I think paid translators would hardly turn into stable Wikipedians.
>
I think this misses an important point that is, we don't need the
initial translator to turn into a sustaining editor, we need the article
to evolve with call to action incentives. And articles which don't exist
at all – even as a stub – or don't meet an audience of potential
contributors will never catch such an evolving cycle.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

Amir E. Aharoni
2018-02-27 13:00 GMT+02:00 mathieu stumpf guntz <
[hidden email]>:

>
>
> Le 24/02/2018 à 18:08, Vi to a écrit :
>
>> *finally I think paid translators would hardly turn into stable
>> Wikipedians.
>>
>> I think this misses an important point that is, we don't need the initial
> translator to turn into a sustaining editor, we need the article to evolve
> with call to action incentives. And articles which don't exist at all –
> even as a stub – or don't meet an audience of potential contributors will
> never catch such an evolving cycle.


This is one of the issues with what I alluded to in my earlier email in
this thread: the privilege that the "big" languages have. It's the
privilege of already having other encyclopedias, textbooks, public
education, etc., in this language. A lot of languages don't have these
things. When you speak a language that has had these things before
Wikipedia came along, it's hard to perceive the world like a person who
speaks a language that doesn't perceives it.

If you define the purpose of paying somebody to translate as "turning the
paid translator" into a sustaining editor, then this is indeed likely to
fail.

But if you define the purpose differently, it may succeed. For example, you
may define the purpose as one or more of the following:
* Demonstrating that it's possible to write an encyclopedia in that language
* Creating basic encyclopedic terminology and style in that language
* Creating a bunch of basic articles that would appear in interlanguage
links in Wikipedias from bigger languages (English, French, etc.)
* Creating a bunch of basic articles that would appear in search results
from internet search engines

The existence of these things may bring in people who will become volunteer
sustaining editors.

--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
‪“We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

Gerard Meijssen-3
In reply to this post by James Salsman-2
Hoi,
The Cebuano Wikipedia articles were created based on information available
in databases. So creating static articles is a known quantity. In
Reasonator there is functionality that creates text for humans. This has
been available for years as well  and when data changes, the text changes.

Consequently both static and dynamic texts based on data has been with us
for years. It is only in the opposition by some that we have not served the
data that is available to us as information for those who seek knowledge.
Technically there is nothing that stops us.
Thanks,
      GerardM

On 26 February 2018 at 12:50, James Salsman <[hidden email]> wrote:

> > wonder if creating dynamic articles from Wikidata is better
> > than creating static articles
>
> Not for years to decades.
>
> https://twitter.com/AustenAllred/status/967842020151603200
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 3:02 AM, John Erling Blad <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > I wonder if creating dynamic articles from Wikidata is better than
> creating
> > static articles. Because we lack tools for this, it is easier to do this
> > offline, and as a consequence we get the static bot-articles.
> >
> > Den søn. 25. feb. 2018, 16.26 skrev Gabriel Thullen <[hidden email]
> >:
> >
> >> I should have joined in this discussion a little earlier. I work a lot
> with
> >> the French Wikipedia, and we do not just translate articles from
> English (6
> >> million articles) to French (only 2 million articles). The French
> community
> >> is large and active, and provide a unique local perspective on the
> >> different articles that are written. And when I say local, I mean that
> >> things are seen differently in France than in the French speaking part
> of
> >> Switzerland or Belgium.
> >>
> >> I think that we are ignoring something very important here: putting it
> >> simply, Wikipedia contributors do two things. They add information to
> the
> >> encyclopedia by improving articles or writing new ones, and they curate
> or
> >> check the existing articles. All this talk about machine translation
> does
> >> not address the second aspect of what the volunteer contributors do.
> >> This means that we could have hundreds of thousands of articles in a
> >> language with  very few active contributors. Will that small community
> be
> >> able to oversee so many articles ?
> >>
> >> For example, have a look at the list of Wikipedias ordered by number of
> >> articles:
> >> 1. English - 5,578,081 articles - 138,479 active users - 1,230 admins
> >> 2. Cebuano - 5,383,108 articles - 162 active users - 5 admins
> >> 3. Swedish - 3,784,331 articles - 2,929 active users - 65 admins
> >> 4. German - 2,157,495 articles - 20, 085 active users - 194 admins
> >>
> >> When I have some time, I will look into different ratios like number or
> >> articles/active users or number of articles/number of native language
> >> speakers... Now I am not saying that our Swedish friends have abused
> >> machine translation of articles, but I definetly that something is not
> >> quite right about the Cebuano wiki...
> >> Gabe
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sun, Feb 25, 2018 at 4:06 PM, Anders Wennersten <
> >> [hidden email]
> >> > wrote:
> >>
> >> > I am very happy to follow this thread as I believe it is addressing a
> >> very
> >> > relevant issue.
> >> >
> >> > In my mind we can divide up the different language version into 5
> >> > categories:
> >> >
> >> > 1.Enwp,
> >> >
> >> > 2.the next 6-7 (de,fr, es,jp,pt,ru..)
> >> >
> >> > 3.the next 20 or so, where the basic workprocesses are applied
> >> >
> >> > 4.the next 40-50 which are struggling to generate more input then
> what is
> >> > vandalised
> >> >
> >> > 5.the rest which in reality is no viable online encyclopedias
> >> >
> >> > And for me no 1 priority is to accept that there are these categories,
> >> and
> >> > that what is applicable for cat 1 and 2 is not so for 4 and 5.
> >> >
> >> > I believe the grant model could easily make room for subsiding good
> >> > initiatives addressing the problem for cat 4 and 5 (and perhaps 3).
> >> >
> >> > And I think it is very presumptuous to start talking of what
> technique to
> >> > use and things like translation. If we open up for creative
> brainstorming
> >> > (among the ones having the need) I think very many other ways can turn
> >> up.
> >> > Myself I am deeply impressed what you can create using Wikidata as a
> base
> >> > source of info, and being from a version of type 3 I see how much my
> >> > homeversion improve content with wikidata created infoboxes
> >> >
> >> > Anders
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Den 2018-02-24 kl. 13:51, skrev John Erling Blad:
> >> >
> >> >> This discussion is going to be fun! =D
> >> >>
> >> >> A little more than seventy Wikipedia-projects has more than 65k
> >> articles,
> >> >> the remaining two hundred or so are pretty small.
> >> >>
> >> >> What if a base set of articles were opened for paid translators?
> There
> >> are
> >> >> several lists of such base sets. We have both the thousand articles
> from
> >> >> "List of articles every Wikipedia should have"[1] and and the ten
> >> thousand
> >> >> articles from the expanded list[2].
> >> >>
> >> >> Lets say verified good translators was paid about $0.01 per word
> (about
> >> $1
> >> >> for a 1k-article) for translating one of those articles into another
> >> >> language, with perhaps a higher pay for contributors in high-cost
> >> >> countries. The pay would also have to be higher for languages that
> lacks
> >> >> good translation tools.
> >> >>
> >> >> I believe this would be an _enabling_ activity for the communities,
> as
> >> >> without a base set of articles it won't be possible to build a
> community
> >> >> at
> >> >> all. By not paying for new articles, and only translating
> >> well-referenced
> >> >> articles, some of the disputes in the communities could be avoided.
> >> >> Perhaps
> >> >> we should also identify good source articles, that would be a help.
> >> >> Translated articles should be above some minimum size, but they does
> not
> >> >> have to be full translations of the source article.
> >> >>
> >> >> A real problem is that our existing lists of good articles other
> >> projects
> >> >> should have is pretty much biased towards Western World, so they
> need a
> >> >> lot
> >> >> of adjustments. Perhaps such a project would identify our inherit
> bias?
> >> >>
> >> >> [1]
> >> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_every_Wikip
> >> >> edia_should_have
> >> >> [2]
> >> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_every_Wikip
> >> >> edia_should_have/Expanded
> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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> >> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
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> >> >> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
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> >> >
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

Vi to
In reply to this post by Amir E. Aharoni
I see Amir's points, which are pretty reasonable, but I fear this would
suit languages with a significant presence on the web.

Among them I agree with points 1, 3 and 4 while I'm not sure about #2 "creating
basic encyclopedic terminology and style in that language", if we want to
preserve a language we shouldn't create a thing.

By the way I was wondering my concerns about cultural colonization may be
addressed -for wikis which has some contents (let's say at least 1000
articles)- by starting expanding existing articles instead of translating
new ones. This would solve the problem of choosing what to translate though
would leave problems about the perspective contents are created.

Vito

2018-02-27 12:31 GMT+01:00 Amir E. Aharoni <[hidden email]>:

> 2018-02-27 13:00 GMT+02:00 mathieu stumpf guntz <
> [hidden email]>:
>
> >
> >
> > Le 24/02/2018 à 18:08, Vi to a écrit :
> >
> >> *finally I think paid translators would hardly turn into stable
> >> Wikipedians.
> >>
> >> I think this misses an important point that is, we don't need the
> initial
> > translator to turn into a sustaining editor, we need the article to
> evolve
> > with call to action incentives. And articles which don't exist at all –
> > even as a stub – or don't meet an audience of potential contributors will
> > never catch such an evolving cycle.
>
>
> This is one of the issues with what I alluded to in my earlier email in
> this thread: the privilege that the "big" languages have. It's the
> privilege of already having other encyclopedias, textbooks, public
> education, etc., in this language. A lot of languages don't have these
> things. When you speak a language that has had these things before
> Wikipedia came along, it's hard to perceive the world like a person who
> speaks a language that doesn't perceives it.
>
> If you define the purpose of paying somebody to translate as "turning the
> paid translator" into a sustaining editor, then this is indeed likely to
> fail.
>
> But if you define the purpose differently, it may succeed. For example, you
> may define the purpose as one or more of the following:
> * Demonstrating that it's possible to write an encyclopedia in that
> language
> * Creating basic encyclopedic terminology and style in that language
> * Creating a bunch of basic articles that would appear in interlanguage
> links in Wikipedias from bigger languages (English, French, etc.)
> * Creating a bunch of basic articles that would appear in search results
> from internet search engines
>
> The existence of these things may bring in people who will become volunteer
> sustaining editors.
>
> --
> Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
> http://aharoni.wordpress.com
> ‪“We're living in pieces,
> I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

Amir E. Aharoni
2018-02-27 13:42 GMT+02:00 Vi to <[hidden email]>:

> I see Amir's points, which are pretty reasonable, but I fear this would
> suit languages with a significant presence on the web.
>
> Among them I agree with points 1, 3 and 4 while I'm not sure about #2
> "creating
> basic encyclopedic terminology and style in that language", if we want to
> preserve a language we shouldn't create a thing.
>
> By the way I was wondering my concerns about cultural colonization may be
> addressed -for wikis which has some contents (let's say at least 1000
> articles)- by starting expanding existing articles instead of translating
> new ones. This would solve the problem of choosing what to translate though
> would leave problems about the perspective contents are created.
>
> Vito
>

It's a very common mistake to think that the purpose of Wikipedias in
"small" languages is language preservation or revitalization.

Sometimes it is, but there is something much bigger: There are many
languages that
1. are alive in speech (and possibly in writing)
2. are not in danger of extinction
3. have a large number of monolingual speakers (let's say 100,000+)

If there is no substantial Wikipedia in such a language, these people can't
read Wikipedia in *any language* because they are monolingual. Most likely
they cannot read any any encyclopedia in any language. They need a
Wikipedia not in order to preserve the language, but to have access to
*any* encyclopedic knowledge.

I speak a revitalized language, and I'm very well aware of its history.
Language preservation and revitalization are lovely things. But it's not
the main point of what Wikimedia does.

--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
‪“We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

mathieu lovato stumpf guntz
In reply to this post by Vi to
Le 27/02/2018 à 12:42, Vi to a écrit :
> I see Amir's points, which are pretty reasonable, but I fear this would
> suit languages with a significant presence on the web.
>
> Among them I agree with points 1, 3 and 4 while I'm not sure about #2 "creating
> basic encyclopedic terminology and style in that language", if we want to
> preserve a language we shouldn't create a thing.
I think that here the term "preserving" is misinterpreted. It's not
about stuff it to put it in a nothing-should-move-anymore museum. It's
about preserving actual use of diverse language as diachronic phenomena,
ie as evolving objects.

On this regard, even largest language communities are seeing their use
changing at an increasing pace, as recognize institutions like Académie
française (not quite your average neologismophilic neo-punk band).

I think it's also good to recall that there are places where there is
not yet a a high bandwith reliable internet (or internet at all), but
that computer are accessibles. For example Libraries Without Borders[2]
are providing computer boxes, which do include some Wikimedia material
if I'm not mistaken. Although I'm not enough informed on their actions,
but it would interesting to be in contact with them if it's not already
the case. Making encyclopedia shared through travelling USB key would be
surely possible for example, but that just a sketched idea.

On the other hand, should we recall that we are losing language
diversity at an increasing pace?[3] And of course when a language die,
it's whole culture which go with it like a bush medicine engraved in
aboriginal vocabulary.[4] So really it's not about bringing knowledge to
communities with less geopolitcally influence, it's about giving mankind
a chance to loose as few as possible of valuable knowledge by diffusing
it omnidirectly.


[1] Parce qu’il doit être tout à la fois le greffier de l’usage, le
témoin de l’histoire et celui du changement le Dictionnaire de
l’Académie aura donc presque doublé de volume. En consacrant ainsi un
très grand nombre de mots nouveaux, l’Académie répond aux exigences du
temps mais elle se montre fidèle aussi à sa tradition.
http://www.academie-francaise.fr/la-langue-francaise-langue-de-la-modernite-seance-publique-annuelle
[2] https://www.librarieswithoutborders.org/
[3]
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/unesco-half-worlds-languages-will-disappear-by-2100-1498154
[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_medicine


> By the way I was wondering my concerns about cultural colonization may be
> addressed -for wikis which has some contents (let's say at least 1000
> articles)- by starting expanding existing articles instead of translating
> new ones. This would solve the problem of choosing what to translate though
> would leave problems about the perspective contents are created.
>
> Vito
>
> 2018-02-27 12:31 GMT+01:00 Amir E. Aharoni <[hidden email]>:
>
>> 2018-02-27 13:00 GMT+02:00 mathieu stumpf guntz <
>> [hidden email]>:
>>
>>>
>>> Le 24/02/2018 à 18:08, Vi to a écrit :
>>>
>>>> *finally I think paid translators would hardly turn into stable
>>>> Wikipedians.
>>>>
>>>> I think this misses an important point that is, we don't need the
>> initial
>>> translator to turn into a sustaining editor, we need the article to
>> evolve
>>> with call to action incentives. And articles which don't exist at all –
>>> even as a stub – or don't meet an audience of potential contributors will
>>> never catch such an evolving cycle.
>>
>> This is one of the issues with what I alluded to in my earlier email in
>> this thread: the privilege that the "big" languages have. It's the
>> privilege of already having other encyclopedias, textbooks, public
>> education, etc., in this language. A lot of languages don't have these
>> things. When you speak a language that has had these things before
>> Wikipedia came along, it's hard to perceive the world like a person who
>> speaks a language that doesn't perceives it.
>>
>> If you define the purpose of paying somebody to translate as "turning the
>> paid translator" into a sustaining editor, then this is indeed likely to
>> fail.
>>
>> But if you define the purpose differently, it may succeed. For example, you
>> may define the purpose as one or more of the following:
>> * Demonstrating that it's possible to write an encyclopedia in that
>> language
>> * Creating basic encyclopedic terminology and style in that language
>> * Creating a bunch of basic articles that would appear in interlanguage
>> links in Wikipedias from bigger languages (English, French, etc.)
>> * Creating a bunch of basic articles that would appear in search results
>> from internet search engines
>>
>> The existence of these things may bring in people who will become volunteer
>> sustaining editors.
>>
>> --
>> Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
>> http://aharoni.wordpress.com
>> ‪“We're living in pieces,
>> I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
>> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
>> wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> New messages to: [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

Peter Southwood
In reply to this post by Vi to
If the people creating the basic encyclopaedic terminology and style in the language are native speakers, then it would not be a thing imposed from outside. It would be a development within the language, just like it was with the languages that already have encyclopaedias. The basic encyclopaedic terminology and style in languages that have then also had to be created before it existed, it just happened earlier. Living languages evolve to deal with the realities of the present. Those which don’t, tend to die out as they become less useful. Cheers, Peter

-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Vi to
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2018 1:43 PM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

I see Amir's points, which are pretty reasonable, but I fear this would suit languages with a significant presence on the web.

Among them I agree with points 1, 3 and 4 while I'm not sure about #2 "creating basic encyclopedic terminology and style in that language", if we want to preserve a language we shouldn't create a thing.

By the way I was wondering my concerns about cultural colonization may be addressed -for wikis which has some contents (let's say at least 1000
articles)- by starting expanding existing articles instead of translating new ones. This would solve the problem of choosing what to translate though would leave problems about the perspective contents are created.

Vito

2018-02-27 12:31 GMT+01:00 Amir E. Aharoni <[hidden email]>:

> 2018-02-27 13:00 GMT+02:00 mathieu stumpf guntz <
> [hidden email]>:
>
> >
> >
> > Le 24/02/2018 à 18:08, Vi to a écrit :
> >
> >> *finally I think paid translators would hardly turn into stable
> >> Wikipedians.
> >>
> >> I think this misses an important point that is, we don't need the
> initial
> > translator to turn into a sustaining editor, we need the article to
> evolve
> > with call to action incentives. And articles which don't exist at
> > all – even as a stub – or don't meet an audience of potential
> > contributors will never catch such an evolving cycle.
>
>
> This is one of the issues with what I alluded to in my earlier email
> in this thread: the privilege that the "big" languages have. It's the
> privilege of already having other encyclopedias, textbooks, public
> education, etc., in this language. A lot of languages don't have these
> things. When you speak a language that has had these things before
> Wikipedia came along, it's hard to perceive the world like a person
> who speaks a language that doesn't perceives it.
>
> If you define the purpose of paying somebody to translate as "turning
> the paid translator" into a sustaining editor, then this is indeed
> likely to fail.
>
> But if you define the purpose differently, it may succeed. For
> example, you may define the purpose as one or more of the following:
> * Demonstrating that it's possible to write an encyclopedia in that
> language
> * Creating basic encyclopedic terminology and style in that language
> * Creating a bunch of basic articles that would appear in
> interlanguage links in Wikipedias from bigger languages (English,
> French, etc.)
> * Creating a bunch of basic articles that would appear in search
> results from internet search engines
>
> The existence of these things may bring in people who will become
> volunteer sustaining editors.
>
> --
> Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
> http://aharoni.wordpress.com ‪“We're living in pieces, I want to live
> in peace.” – T. Moore‬ _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ 
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ 
> wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

Tim Landscheidt
In reply to this post by Amir E. Aharoni
"Amir E. Aharoni" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> […]

> Sometimes it is, but there is something much bigger: There are many
> languages that
> 1. are alive in speech (and possibly in writing)
> 2. are not in danger of extinction
> 3. have a large number of monolingual speakers (let's say 100,000+)

> If there is no substantial Wikipedia in such a language, these people can't
> read Wikipedia in *any language* because they are monolingual. Most likely
> they cannot read any any encyclopedia in any language. They need a
> Wikipedia not in order to preserve the language, but to have access to
> *any* encyclopedic knowledge.

> I speak a revitalized language, and I'm very well aware of its history.
> Language preservation and revitalization are lovely things. But it's not
> the main point of what Wikimedia does.

"Need a Wikipedia" sounds like a great idea when you are
selling Wikipedias, but for progress, betterment of humani-
ty, sustainable development, etc. I think teaching those
monolingual speakers a second language (for example English)
is far preferable as it not only enables them to access to a
few hundred or thousand articles someone paid to have trans-
lated, but all articles of the English Wikipedia, plus every
English article, every English book, every English blog, ev-
ery English video on the InterNet.

It also grows them not only intellectually, but also removes
economical barriers for trading with other groups.

Tim


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

Amir E. Aharoni
--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
‪“We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬

2018-02-27 18:04 GMT+02:00 Tim Landscheidt <[hidden email]>:

> "Amir E. Aharoni" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > […]
>
> > Sometimes it is, but there is something much bigger: There are many
> > languages that
> > 1. are alive in speech (and possibly in writing)
> > 2. are not in danger of extinction
> > 3. have a large number of monolingual speakers (let's say 100,000+)
>
> > If there is no substantial Wikipedia in such a language, these people
> can't
> > read Wikipedia in *any language* because they are monolingual. Most
> likely
> > they cannot read any any encyclopedia in any language. They need a
> > Wikipedia not in order to preserve the language, but to have access to
> > *any* encyclopedic knowledge.
>
> > I speak a revitalized language, and I'm very well aware of its history.
> > Language preservation and revitalization are lovely things. But it's not
> > the main point of what Wikimedia does.
>
> "Need a Wikipedia" sounds like a great idea when you are
> selling Wikipedias, but for progress, betterment of humani-
> ty, sustainable development, etc. I think teaching those
> monolingual speakers a second language (for example English)
> is far preferable as it not only enables them to access to a
> few hundred or thousand articles someone paid to have trans-
> lated, but all articles of the English Wikipedia, plus every
> English article, every English book, every English blog, ev-
> ery English video on the InterNet.
>
> It also grows them not only intellectually, but also removes
> economical barriers for trading with other groups.
>
> Tim
>
>
> ... Yeah, it's a tempting thought. Without English we wouldn't be able to
have this conversation, and do thousands of other things.

And yet, that's exactly what we as Wikimedia are not supposed to do, for
reasons that mathieu stumpf guntz suggests: not only what is written in a
language is knowledge; language itself is also knowledge.

On a more practical and less ideological note, I should note that even
though I didn't run the numbers, I strongly suspect that translating 10,000
articles to 100 languages is considerably cheaper than teaching 7 billion
people English.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

Vi to
In reply to this post by Peter Southwood
(This thread is getting terribly interesting)

I generally think Wikipedia should be a strictly non interfering observer
for various aspects, language included. I fear if a wiki tries to set a
model for a language it may be a model which doesn't represent the reality
of that language: small wikis are often monopolized by a few users. That's
not a fault per se but it may introduce a significant bias in linguistic
models used.

About one of Amir's emails I think a "small" Wikipedia edition is sign of a
series of situations, one of the most common of is an endangered language.
While planning should differentiate between endangered and non endangered
language I think most of problems we have to face are related to languages
endangered at various levels.

On a more practical and less ideological note, I should note that even
though I didn't run the numbers, I strongly suspect that translating 10,000
articles to 100 languages is considerably cheaper than teaching 7 billion
people English.

I don't why but I tend to second your suspects :p


Vito

2018-02-27 16:53 GMT+01:00 Peter Southwood <[hidden email]>:

> If the people creating the basic encyclopaedic terminology and style in
> the language are native speakers, then it would not be a thing imposed from
> outside. It would be a development within the language, just like it was
> with the languages that already have encyclopaedias. The basic
> encyclopaedic terminology and style in languages that have then also had to
> be created before it existed, it just happened earlier. Living languages
> evolve to deal with the realities of the present. Those which don’t, tend
> to die out as they become less useful. Cheers, Peter
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of Vi to
> Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2018 1:43 PM
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation
>
> I see Amir's points, which are pretty reasonable, but I fear this would
> suit languages with a significant presence on the web.
>
> Among them I agree with points 1, 3 and 4 while I'm not sure about #2
> "creating basic encyclopedic terminology and style in that language", if we
> want to preserve a language we shouldn't create a thing.
>
> By the way I was wondering my concerns about cultural colonization may be
> addressed -for wikis which has some contents (let's say at least 1000
> articles)- by starting expanding existing articles instead of translating
> new ones. This would solve the problem of choosing what to translate though
> would leave problems about the perspective contents are created.
>
> Vito
>
> 2018-02-27 12:31 GMT+01:00 Amir E. Aharoni <[hidden email]>:
>
> > 2018-02-27 13:00 GMT+02:00 mathieu stumpf guntz <
> > [hidden email]>:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Le 24/02/2018 à 18:08, Vi to a écrit :
> > >
> > >> *finally I think paid translators would hardly turn into stable
> > >> Wikipedians.
> > >>
> > >> I think this misses an important point that is, we don't need the
> > initial
> > > translator to turn into a sustaining editor, we need the article to
> > evolve
> > > with call to action incentives. And articles which don't exist at
> > > all – even as a stub – or don't meet an audience of potential
> > > contributors will never catch such an evolving cycle.
> >
> >
> > This is one of the issues with what I alluded to in my earlier email
> > in this thread: the privilege that the "big" languages have. It's the
> > privilege of already having other encyclopedias, textbooks, public
> > education, etc., in this language. A lot of languages don't have these
> > things. When you speak a language that has had these things before
> > Wikipedia came along, it's hard to perceive the world like a person
> > who speaks a language that doesn't perceives it.
> >
> > If you define the purpose of paying somebody to translate as "turning
> > the paid translator" into a sustaining editor, then this is indeed
> > likely to fail.
> >
> > But if you define the purpose differently, it may succeed. For
> > example, you may define the purpose as one or more of the following:
> > * Demonstrating that it's possible to write an encyclopedia in that
> > language
> > * Creating basic encyclopedic terminology and style in that language
> > * Creating a bunch of basic articles that would appear in
> > interlanguage links in Wikipedias from bigger languages (English,
> > French, etc.)
> > * Creating a bunch of basic articles that would appear in search
> > results from internet search engines
> >
> > The existence of these things may bring in people who will become
> > volunteer sustaining editors.
> >
> > --
> > Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
> > http://aharoni.wordpress.com ‪“We're living in pieces, I want to live
> > in peace.” – T. Moore‬ _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
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> wiki/Wikimedia-l
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>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

Renée Bagslint
Does it make sense to have more articles in a language than can be curated
by the volunteers who speak that language?  This has already happened on
the Englisg-language Wikipedia where the five million articles have simply
overwhelmed the capability of the few thousand active contributors to
self-organise and curate -- for example, there are about one million
articles without adequate sources, and thousands of unsourced BLP; there
are copyvio cleanups that will not complete, if ever, before 2030.  An army
of hand-coded bots is just about keeping on top of vandalism.  How does
that scale to projects where the number of native speaker contributors is
in the dozens rather than the thousands?

On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 4:17 PM, Vi to <[hidden email]> wrote:

> (This thread is getting terribly interesting)
>
> I generally think Wikipedia should be a strictly non interfering observer
> for various aspects, language included. I fear if a wiki tries to set a
> model for a language it may be a model which doesn't represent the reality
> of that language: small wikis are often monopolized by a few users. That's
> not a fault per se but it may introduce a significant bias in linguistic
> models used.
>
> About one of Amir's emails I think a "small" Wikipedia edition is sign of a
> series of situations, one of the most common of is an endangered language.
> While planning should differentiate between endangered and non endangered
> language I think most of problems we have to face are related to languages
> endangered at various levels.
>
> On a more practical and less ideological note, I should note that even
> though I didn't run the numbers, I strongly suspect that translating 10,000
> articles to 100 languages is considerably cheaper than teaching 7 billion
> people English.
>
> I don't why but I tend to second your suspects :p
>
>
> Vito
>
> 2018-02-27 16:53 GMT+01:00 Peter Southwood <[hidden email]>:
>
> > If the people creating the basic encyclopaedic terminology and style in
> > the language are native speakers, then it would not be a thing imposed
> from
> > outside. It would be a development within the language, just like it was
> > with the languages that already have encyclopaedias. The basic
> > encyclopaedic terminology and style in languages that have then also had
> to
> > be created before it existed, it just happened earlier. Living languages
> > evolve to deal with the realities of the present. Those which don’t, tend
> > to die out as they become less useful. Cheers, Peter
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> > Behalf Of Vi to
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2018 1:43 PM
> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation
> >
> > I see Amir's points, which are pretty reasonable, but I fear this would
> > suit languages with a significant presence on the web.
> >
> > Among them I agree with points 1, 3 and 4 while I'm not sure about #2
> > "creating basic encyclopedic terminology and style in that language", if
> we
> > want to preserve a language we shouldn't create a thing.
> >
> > By the way I was wondering my concerns about cultural colonization may be
> > addressed -for wikis which has some contents (let's say at least 1000
> > articles)- by starting expanding existing articles instead of translating
> > new ones. This would solve the problem of choosing what to translate
> though
> > would leave problems about the perspective contents are created.
> >
> > Vito
> >
> > 2018-02-27 12:31 GMT+01:00 Amir E. Aharoni <[hidden email]
> >:
> >
> > > 2018-02-27 13:00 GMT+02:00 mathieu stumpf guntz <
> > > [hidden email]>:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Le 24/02/2018 à 18:08, Vi to a écrit :
> > > >
> > > >> *finally I think paid translators would hardly turn into stable
> > > >> Wikipedians.
> > > >>
> > > >> I think this misses an important point that is, we don't need the
> > > initial
> > > > translator to turn into a sustaining editor, we need the article to
> > > evolve
> > > > with call to action incentives. And articles which don't exist at
> > > > all – even as a stub – or don't meet an audience of potential
> > > > contributors will never catch such an evolving cycle.
> > >
> > >
> > > This is one of the issues with what I alluded to in my earlier email
> > > in this thread: the privilege that the "big" languages have. It's the
> > > privilege of already having other encyclopedias, textbooks, public
> > > education, etc., in this language. A lot of languages don't have these
> > > things. When you speak a language that has had these things before
> > > Wikipedia came along, it's hard to perceive the world like a person
> > > who speaks a language that doesn't perceives it.
> > >
> > > If you define the purpose of paying somebody to translate as "turning
> > > the paid translator" into a sustaining editor, then this is indeed
> > > likely to fail.
> > >
> > > But if you define the purpose differently, it may succeed. For
> > > example, you may define the purpose as one or more of the following:
> > > * Demonstrating that it's possible to write an encyclopedia in that
> > > language
> > > * Creating basic encyclopedic terminology and style in that language
> > > * Creating a bunch of basic articles that would appear in
> > > interlanguage links in Wikipedias from bigger languages (English,
> > > French, etc.)
> > > * Creating a bunch of basic articles that would appear in search
> > > results from internet search engines
> > >
> > > The existence of these things may bring in people who will become
> > > volunteer sustaining editors.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
> > > http://aharoni.wordpress.com ‪“We're living in pieces, I want to live
> > > in peace.” – T. Moore‬ _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
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> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
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