[Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

Jean-Philippe Béland
Amir,

I agree with everything you said, especially that languages are knowledge
in themselves, but I must say that Wikimedia is not doing much in an effort
to teach languages to people. Why isn't there more effort at the WMF or as
a movement to try to develop a platform to teach languages?

Jean-Philippe Béland
Vice President and Programs Coordinator, Wikimedia Canada
Coordinator, Wikimedians of North American Indigenous Languages User Group
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

Amir E. Aharoni
Well... Not that teaching languages—big or small—is bad, but wouldn't we be
losing focus if we got into it?

Wikibooks and Wikiversity can theoretically be places for teaching. Are
they good at it? Probably not. Should they be made better? Maybe.

בתאריך 27 בפבר׳ 2018 19:52,‏ "Jean-Philippe Béland" <[hidden email]>
כתב:

Amir,

I agree with everything you said, especially that languages are knowledge
in themselves, but I must say that Wikimedia is not doing much in an effort
to teach languages to people. Why isn't there more effort at the WMF or as
a movement to try to develop a platform to teach languages?

Jean-Philippe Béland
Vice President and Programs Coordinator, Wikimedia Canada
Coordinator, Wikimedians of North American Indigenous Languages User Group
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

James Salsman-2
Languages are taught by authoritative dictionaries (after people, and
ahead of almost all other similar reference books.)

Wiktionary has multiple teaching functions whether we want it to or
not: https://curve.coventry.ac.uk/open/items/efe362e1-fe80-4c90-bc1e-4ab2d9bbae20/1/

Have you seen how much Wiktionary has been growing in Brazil?
https://blog.searchmetrics.com/us/2018/02/14/seo-world-rankings-2018/

Amir, you know it would not be losing focus because of what you said
in your talk at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_xJaqQV71s

Best regards,
Jim


On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 11:14 AM, Amir E. Aharoni
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Well... Not that teaching languages—big or small—is bad, but wouldn't we be
> losing focus if we got into it?
>
> Wikibooks and Wikiversity can theoretically be places for teaching. Are
> they good at it? Probably not. Should they be made better? Maybe.
>
> בתאריך 27 בפבר׳ 2018 19:52,‏ "Jean-Philippe Béland" <[hidden email]>
> כתב:
>
> Amir,
>
> I agree with everything you said, especially that languages are knowledge
> in themselves, but I must say that Wikimedia is not doing much in an effort
> to teach languages to people. Why isn't there more effort at the WMF or as
> a movement to try to develop a platform to teach languages?
>
> Jean-Philippe Béland
> Vice President and Programs Coordinator, Wikimedia Canada
> Coordinator, Wikimedians of North American Indigenous Languages User Group
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

Jean-Philippe Béland
I don't think it would be losing focus as it fits directly in the mission
of the movement to share the sum of human knowledge, since languages are
knowledge in themselves.

Yes I agree that Wikiversity could be used for that, but this project
really needs support to get to current standards of "online courses", and I
don't see much push in that direction.

JP


On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 2:23 PM James Salsman <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Languages are taught by authoritative dictionaries (after people, and
> ahead of almost all other similar reference books.)
>
> Wiktionary has multiple teaching functions whether we want it to or
> not:
> https://curve.coventry.ac.uk/open/items/efe362e1-fe80-4c90-bc1e-4ab2d9bbae20/1/
>
> Have you seen how much Wiktionary has been growing in Brazil?
> https://blog.searchmetrics.com/us/2018/02/14/seo-world-rankings-2018/
>
> Amir, you know it would not be losing focus because of what you said
> in your talk at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_xJaqQV71s
>
> Best regards,
> Jim
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 11:14 AM, Amir E. Aharoni
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Well... Not that teaching languages—big or small—is bad, but wouldn't we
> be
> > losing focus if we got into it?
> >
> > Wikibooks and Wikiversity can theoretically be places for teaching. Are
> > they good at it? Probably not. Should they be made better? Maybe.
> >
> > בתאריך 27 בפבר׳ 2018 19:52,‏ "Jean-Philippe Béland" <
> [hidden email]>
> > כתב:
> >
> > Amir,
> >
> > I agree with everything you said, especially that languages are knowledge
> > in themselves, but I must say that Wikimedia is not doing much in an
> effort
> > to teach languages to people. Why isn't there more effort at the WMF or
> as
> > a movement to try to develop a platform to teach languages?
> >
> > Jean-Philippe Béland
> > Vice President and Programs Coordinator, Wikimedia Canada
> > Coordinator, Wikimedians of North American Indigenous Languages User
> Group
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
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> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

Amir E. Aharoni
In reply to this post by James Salsman-2
2018-02-27 21:23 GMT+02:00 James Salsman <[hidden email]>:

> Languages are taught by authoritative dictionaries (after people, and
> ahead of almost all other similar reference books.)
>

... Yeah, and building an authoritative dictionary is considerably harder
than building a (de facto) authoritative encyclopedia. Despite, I have
enormous respect for Wiktionary, and great (great!) hopes about Lexical
Wikidata.


> Wiktionary has multiple teaching functions whether we want it to or
> not: https://curve.coventry.ac.uk/open/items/efe362e1-fe80-4c90-
> bc1e-4ab2d9bbae20/1/
>

Why not :)


> Amir, you know it would not be losing focus because of what you said
> in your talk at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_xJaqQV71s
>

Um... thanks for the publicity :)

But no, that's not what I said. I was not trying to say that everybody
should learn English. The point I was trying to make there is that knowing
English is a privilege and that it is easy to not notice it. Of course, if
that point didn't come through, it's my fault.

--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
‪“We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

Tim Landscheidt
In reply to this post by Amir E. Aharoni
"Amir E. Aharoni" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> […]

> On a more practical and less ideological note, I should note that even
> though I didn't run the numbers, I strongly suspect that translating 10,000
> articles to 100 languages is considerably cheaper than teaching 7 billion
> people English.

Definitely, but your argument was:

| […]

| If there is no substantial Wikipedia in such a language, these people can't
| read Wikipedia in *any language* because they are monolingual. Most likely
| they cannot read any any encyclopedia in any language. They need a
| Wikipedia not in order to preserve the language, but to have access to
| *any* encyclopedic knowledge.

| […]

A large part of humanity *has* access to a reasonably main-
tained Wikipedia in a language they understand, not to speak
of traditional encyclopedias in schools and libraries.

Then of course there is the more fundamental problem: If
those 100,000 monolingual speakers do not speak other lan-
guages, have no access to encyclopedias, etc., how do they
interact with a computer now, which web sites do they visit,
etc.?

I just have a very hard time to imagine a community of
100,000 people under those circumstances who are only held
back by not having access to a Wikipedia.  On the contrary,
this reminds me very much of traditional development prac-
tices where third world countries always seem to urgently
need to buy what first world countries have to sell.  IMHO,
there is a considerable risk that this creates unhealthy de-
pendencies.

Tim


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

James Salsman-2
In reply to this post by Amir E. Aharoni
> I was not trying to say that everybody
> should learn English. The point I was
> trying to make there is that knowing
> English is a privilege and that it is easy
> to not notice it.

I agree with that, too. How is teaching language different relative to
the Foundation Mission than teaching subjects of encyclopedia
articles?


On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 1:11 PM, Amir E. Aharoni
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> 2018-02-27 21:23 GMT+02:00 James Salsman <[hidden email]>:
>
>> Languages are taught by authoritative dictionaries (after people, and
>> ahead of almost all other similar reference books.)
>>
>
> ... Yeah, and building an authoritative dictionary is considerably harder
> than building a (de facto) authoritative encyclopedia. Despite, I have
> enormous respect for Wiktionary, and great (great!) hopes about Lexical
> Wikidata.
>
>
>> Wiktionary has multiple teaching functions whether we want it to or
>> not: https://curve.coventry.ac.uk/open/items/efe362e1-fe80-4c90-
>> bc1e-4ab2d9bbae20/1/
>>
>
> Why not :)
>
>
>> Amir, you know it would not be losing focus because of what you said
>> in your talk at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_xJaqQV71s
>>
>
> Um... thanks for the publicity :)
>
> But no, that's not what I said. I was not trying to say that everybody
> should learn English. The point I was trying to make there is that knowing
> English is a privilege and that it is easy to not notice it. Of course, if
> that point didn't come through, it's my fault.
>
> --
> Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
> http://aharoni.wordpress.com
> ‪“We're living in pieces,
> I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

Gnangarra
A person language is a key part of their culture, their knowledge, and
their identity to truly understand a concept its best shared in its
original language.  Since our goal is to freely share the sum the all
knowledge we should be endeavouring to encourage every culture to use its
own language.   Indigenous languages have and continue to be suppressed by
the colonial languages making any decision to deny a language project, or
to translate an article based on one written in another language is
political decision that has greater impact.   Wikipedias have by the very
nature of what we have created become to be seen as part of a
languages(cultures) recognition and online identity.

Tim its not hard to imagine a community of 100,000 who are held back
because there is no Wikipedia in their language when you look at how much
Wikimedia projects are now at the centre of knowledge systems on the web.
 For the last four years I have been working with the Noongar community to
establish a Wikipedia in Noongar. The noongar language is widely used
within English language here in Western Australia such is impact that we
have over 2 million people who use noongar in their daily lives yet it gets
called Australian english.  The influence of noongar goes beyond the words
and permeates through the Western Australian culture to understand that
impact one needs to be able to access that knowledge.

So how do those people who are monolingual interact with computers at the
moment, its really quite simple they dont computer literacy in Indigenous
communities is well behind that of the colonial based language communities
in the same country.  In the process of reaching out for that knowledge we
need to ensure we do more than just take.



On 28 February 2018 at 07:25, James Salsman <[hidden email]> wrote:

> > I was not trying to say that everybody
> > should learn English. The point I was
> > trying to make there is that knowing
> > English is a privilege and that it is easy
> > to not notice it.
>
> I agree with that, too. How is teaching language different relative to
> the Foundation Mission than teaching subjects of encyclopedia
> articles?
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 1:11 PM, Amir E. Aharoni
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > 2018-02-27 21:23 GMT+02:00 James Salsman <[hidden email]>:
> >
> >> Languages are taught by authoritative dictionaries (after people, and
> >> ahead of almost all other similar reference books.)
> >>
> >
> > ... Yeah, and building an authoritative dictionary is considerably harder
> > than building a (de facto) authoritative encyclopedia. Despite, I have
> > enormous respect for Wiktionary, and great (great!) hopes about Lexical
> > Wikidata.
> >
> >
> >> Wiktionary has multiple teaching functions whether we want it to or
> >> not: https://curve.coventry.ac.uk/open/items/efe362e1-fe80-4c90-
> >> bc1e-4ab2d9bbae20/1/
> >>
> >
> > Why not :)
> >
> >
> >> Amir, you know it would not be losing focus because of what you said
> >> in your talk at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_xJaqQV71s
> >>
> >
> > Um... thanks for the publicity :)
> >
> > But no, that's not what I said. I was not trying to say that everybody
> > should learn English. The point I was trying to make there is that
> knowing
> > English is a privilege and that it is easy to not notice it. Of course,
> if
> > that point didn't come through, it's my fault.
> >
> > --
> > Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
> > http://aharoni.wordpress.com
> > ‪“We're living in pieces,
> > I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> wiki/Wikimedia-l
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> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>



--
GN.
Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page
WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
Out now: A.Gaynor, P. Newman and P. Jennings (eds.), *Never Again:
Reflections on Environmental Responsibility after Roe 8*, UWAP, 2017.  Order
here
<https://uwap.uwa.edu.au/products/never-again-reflections-on-environmental-responsibility-after-roe-8>
.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

Amir E. Aharoni
In reply to this post by James Salsman-2
2018-02-28 1:25 GMT+02:00 James Salsman <[hidden email]>:

> > I was not trying to say that everybody
> > should learn English. The point I was
> > trying to make there is that knowing
> > English is a privilege and that it is easy
> > to not notice it.
>
> I agree with that, too. How is teaching language different relative to
> the Foundation Mission than teaching subjects of encyclopedia
> articles?
>
>
We are not *teaching* encyclopedia articles. We are making it possible to
write them and to read them. It is not the same thing as teaching subjects.

Should we do teaching? Maybe, but since it's different from making it
possible to write and read, I'm afraid it would be losing focus.

Is there anything bad about teaching languages? Of course not. It's great.
I'm just not sure that it's the right thing for Wikimedia to do, when
Wikimedia should be busy getting even better at its main thing: wiki
articles.

--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
‪“We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

Amir E. Aharoni
In reply to this post by Tim Landscheidt
--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
‪“We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬

2018-02-28 1:03 GMT+02:00 Tim Landscheidt <[hidden email]>:

> Then of course there is the more fundamental problem: If
> those 100,000 monolingual speakers do not speak other lan-
> guages, have no access to encyclopedias, etc., how do they
> interact with a computer now, which web sites do they visit,
> etc.?
>

Quite possibly, they don't visit any websites.

Can Wikipedia be a first website in a given language? Of course.

Who if not Wikipedia? In a lot of languages, the first, and sometimes the
only written work is a translation of the Bible or of the UDHR. (Reminder:
The Bible was the first work that was published in a lot of European
languages, too.) These are usually made by some kind of a funded initiative
that comes from religious or human rights organizations. Why shouldn't it
be a translation of 10,000 Wikipedia articles? Why shouldn't it be an
initiative from Wikimedia or another educational organization?


> I just have a very hard time to imagine a community of
> 100,000 people under those circumstances who are only held
> back by not having access to a Wikipedia.  On the contrary,
> this reminds me very much of traditional development prac-
> tices where third world countries always seem to urgently
> need to buy what first world countries have to sell.  IMHO,
> there is a considerable risk that this creates unhealthy de-
> pendencies.
>

Hey, if people don't want it, they don't have to read it, but I suspect
that if you *let* people read useful information about geography, medicine,
public policy, economics, etc., they will use it.

But in very simplified terms, I see it as a competition between UN, JW,
Facebook, and Wikimedia, and Wikimedia is hardly even participating. UN is
a fine organization, but not very useful in people's daily life. Religious
materials' contribution to development of publishing and literacy
throughout history can't be denied, but the usefulness of their content can
be questioned. Facebook is useful to a lot of people, and it can be
localized easily, but it would be kind of depressing if that's the only
thing that people do in their language. And Facebook is very actively
trying to reach to the farthest corners of the world and get people
connected.

And this leaves Wikimedia, which is hardly doing anything proactive to get
its materials *actually* written in more languages. We are making
*technologies* for translation—Wikidata, Content Translation, and more—and
they are used by thousands of translators to write in dozens of languages,
but we are not doing anything proactive to expand the coverage of languages
beyond the usual suspects: the 70 or so languages that John Erling
mentioned in the email that started this thread. The ~70 big languages take
care of themselves. We've been saying that the rest of the languages can
take care of themselves, but that is naïve.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

mathieu lovato stumpf guntz
In reply to this post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Le 27/02/2018 à 18:51, Jean-Philippe Béland a écrit :
> Amir,
>
> I agree with everything you said, especially that languages are knowledge
> in themselves, but I must say that Wikimedia is not doing much in an effort
> to teach languages to people. Why isn't there more effort at the WMF or as
> a movement to try to develop a platform to teach languages?
I totaly support this idea. Right now there are a lot of digital
solutions to learn new languages, but I'm not aware of any which is
doing it with free knowledge activism in mind.

I think we could even make some programs like "start to learn, try to
translate some existing free material selected according to your current
level, get feedback from someone who master the language" pipeline.

>
> Jean-Philippe Béland
> Vice President and Programs Coordinator, Wikimedia Canada
> Coordinator, Wikimedians of North American Indigenous Languages User Group
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

Jean-Philippe Béland
In reply to this post by Amir E. Aharoni
The Wikimedia movement is more than encyclopedias... We already have
Wikiversity for teaching, no? Are efforts to contribute to Wikiversity and
other sister projects making us lose focus? I'm not sure to understand what
you are saying.

JP

On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 2:32 AM Amir E. Aharoni <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> 2018-02-28 1:25 GMT+02:00 James Salsman <[hidden email]>:
>
> > > I was not trying to say that everybody
> > > should learn English. The point I was
> > > trying to make there is that knowing
> > > English is a privilege and that it is easy
> > > to not notice it.
> >
> > I agree with that, too. How is teaching language different relative to
> > the Foundation Mission than teaching subjects of encyclopedia
> > articles?
> >
> >
> We are not *teaching* encyclopedia articles. We are making it possible to
> write them and to read them. It is not the same thing as teaching subjects.
>
> Should we do teaching? Maybe, but since it's different from making it
> possible to write and read, I'm afraid it would be losing focus.
>
> Is there anything bad about teaching languages? Of course not. It's great.
> I'm just not sure that it's the right thing for Wikimedia to do, when
> Wikimedia should be busy getting even better at its main thing: wiki
> articles.
>
> --
> Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
> http://aharoni.wordpress.com
> ‪“We're living in pieces,
> I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

Harald Haugland
This thread brought me to think of an article I wrote on Norwegian
Wikipedia about a year ago. It was about the Allex Project   (African
Languages Lexical Project), a project where universities in Oslo,
Gothenburg and Harare cooperated in developing monolingual text corpus
based dictionaries for shona and ndebele languages in Zimbabwe.

The project resulted in a dictionary in shona, establishing a lexicographic
institute at the university of Zimbabwe, African Languages Research
Institute, 10 doctor degrees for zimbabwians and much more. Shona and
ndbele were lifted from spoken language to university level and
acknowledged as education language.

There is a wikipedia in shona language. It has 3106 articles. If one could
engage some of the people that worked in the Allex Project to do a paid
translation job, it would benefit about 14 million speakers, shona is the
most spoken Bantu language, Zulu is next to shona, spoken by 10 million,
according to our articles.

https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALLEX-prosjektet

Greetings from frozen, sunny Norway

Harald Haugland




2018-02-28 15:03 GMT+01:00 Jean-Philippe Béland <[hidden email]>:

> The Wikimedia movement is more than encyclopedias... We already have
> Wikiversity for teaching, no? Are efforts to contribute to Wikiversity and
> other sister projects making us lose focus? I'm not sure to understand what
> you are saying.
>
> JP
>
> On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 2:32 AM Amir E. Aharoni <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > 2018-02-28 1:25 GMT+02:00 James Salsman <[hidden email]>:
> >
> > > > I was not trying to say that everybody
> > > > should learn English. The point I was
> > > > trying to make there is that knowing
> > > > English is a privilege and that it is easy
> > > > to not notice it.
> > >
> > > I agree with that, too. How is teaching language different relative to
> > > the Foundation Mission than teaching subjects of encyclopedia
> > > articles?
> > >
> > >
> > We are not *teaching* encyclopedia articles. We are making it possible to
> > write them and to read them. It is not the same thing as teaching
> subjects.
> >
> > Should we do teaching? Maybe, but since it's different from making it
> > possible to write and read, I'm afraid it would be losing focus.
> >
> > Is there anything bad about teaching languages? Of course not. It's
> great.
> > I'm just not sure that it's the right thing for Wikimedia to do, when
> > Wikimedia should be busy getting even better at its main thing: wiki
> > articles.
> >
> > --
> > Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
> > http://aharoni.wordpress.com
> > ‪“We're living in pieces,
> > I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
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> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

John Erling Blad
That is a very good example!

On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 11:39 AM, Harald Haugland <[hidden email]> wrote:

> This thread brought me to think of an article I wrote on Norwegian
> Wikipedia about a year ago. It was about the Allex Project   (African
> Languages Lexical Project), a project where universities in Oslo,
> Gothenburg and Harare cooperated in developing monolingual text corpus
> based dictionaries for shona and ndebele languages in Zimbabwe.
>
> The project resulted in a dictionary in shona, establishing a lexicographic
> institute at the university of Zimbabwe, African Languages Research
> Institute, 10 doctor degrees for zimbabwians and much more. Shona and
> ndbele were lifted from spoken language to university level and
> acknowledged as education language.
>
> There is a wikipedia in shona language. It has 3106 articles. If one could
> engage some of the people that worked in the Allex Project to do a paid
> translation job, it would benefit about 14 million speakers, shona is the
> most spoken Bantu language, Zulu is next to shona, spoken by 10 million,
> according to our articles.
>
> https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALLEX-prosjektet
>
> Greetings from frozen, sunny Norway
>
> Harald Haugland
>
>
>
>
> 2018-02-28 15:03 GMT+01:00 Jean-Philippe Béland <[hidden email]>:
>
> > The Wikimedia movement is more than encyclopedias... We already have
> > Wikiversity for teaching, no? Are efforts to contribute to Wikiversity
> and
> > other sister projects making us lose focus? I'm not sure to understand
> what
> > you are saying.
> >
> > JP
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 2:32 AM Amir E. Aharoni <
> > [hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > 2018-02-28 1:25 GMT+02:00 James Salsman <[hidden email]>:
> > >
> > > > > I was not trying to say that everybody
> > > > > should learn English. The point I was
> > > > > trying to make there is that knowing
> > > > > English is a privilege and that it is easy
> > > > > to not notice it.
> > > >
> > > > I agree with that, too. How is teaching language different relative
> to
> > > > the Foundation Mission than teaching subjects of encyclopedia
> > > > articles?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > We are not *teaching* encyclopedia articles. We are making it possible
> to
> > > write them and to read them. It is not the same thing as teaching
> > subjects.
> > >
> > > Should we do teaching? Maybe, but since it's different from making it
> > > possible to write and read, I'm afraid it would be losing focus.
> > >
> > > Is there anything bad about teaching languages? Of course not. It's
> > great.
> > > I'm just not sure that it's the right thing for Wikimedia to do, when
> > > Wikimedia should be busy getting even better at its main thing: wiki
> > > articles.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
> > > http://aharoni.wordpress.com
> > > ‪“We're living in pieces,
> > > I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
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> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
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>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

John Erling Blad
There are something similar to paid translations in what you may call
prioritized articles. That is articles that are so important for a language
that they should be written, no matter whether they exist in a larger
language.

For example in the Northern Sami Wikipedia there should be an article about
Sami border guides during WWII. The article at nowiki describes exclusively
border guides between Norway and Sweden, [1] which where a rather low
intensity border during WWII. The frontier between Norway and Russia was
much more hostile, and later in the war also the frontier between Norway
and Finland. The article at enwiki is similar. [2] There are a number of
good sources, and also some quite interesting articles.[3][4][5]

I wonder if such important articles can be prioritized on a list of paid
work by WMF, as they are extremly important to balance facts that otherwise
can go unnoticed by the community. We as a community tend to write about
our interests, and so reflects the interest of the larger society. That
society is not necessarily aware of some of the biases that is inherent in
our common knowledge.

[1] https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grenselos
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_guide
[3]
https://forskning.no/andre-verdenskrig/2015/02/risikerte-livet-ble-fratatt-all-aere
[4] https://www.nrk.no/nordland/vil-ha-frem-samenes-krigsinnsats-1.11694527
[5]
https://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/samiske-grenseloser-reddet-tusenvis-sa-ble-de-beskyldt-for-landssvik/60993886
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

Amir E. Aharoni
In reply to this post by Harald Haugland
That would be a very good project! Exactly the kind of thing that would be
a good implementation of John Erling's suggestion in his opening email. I'd
support it.


--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
‪“We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬

2018-03-01 12:39 GMT+02:00 Harald Haugland <[hidden email]>:

> This thread brought me to think of an article I wrote on Norwegian
> Wikipedia about a year ago. It was about the Allex Project   (African
> Languages Lexical Project), a project where universities in Oslo,
> Gothenburg and Harare cooperated in developing monolingual text corpus
> based dictionaries for shona and ndebele languages in Zimbabwe.
>
> The project resulted in a dictionary in shona, establishing a lexicographic
> institute at the university of Zimbabwe, African Languages Research
> Institute, 10 doctor degrees for zimbabwians and much more. Shona and
> ndbele were lifted from spoken language to university level and
> acknowledged as education language.
>
> There is a wikipedia in shona language. It has 3106 articles. If one could
> engage some of the people that worked in the Allex Project to do a paid
> translation job, it would benefit about 14 million speakers, shona is the
> most spoken Bantu language, Zulu is next to shona, spoken by 10 million,
> according to our articles.
>
> https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALLEX-prosjektet
>
> Greetings from frozen, sunny Norway
>
> Harald Haugland
>
>
>
>
> 2018-02-28 15:03 GMT+01:00 Jean-Philippe Béland <[hidden email]>:
>
> > The Wikimedia movement is more than encyclopedias... We already have
> > Wikiversity for teaching, no? Are efforts to contribute to Wikiversity
> and
> > other sister projects making us lose focus? I'm not sure to understand
> what
> > you are saying.
> >
> > JP
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 2:32 AM Amir E. Aharoni <
> > [hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > 2018-02-28 1:25 GMT+02:00 James Salsman <[hidden email]>:
> > >
> > > > > I was not trying to say that everybody
> > > > > should learn English. The point I was
> > > > > trying to make there is that knowing
> > > > > English is a privilege and that it is easy
> > > > > to not notice it.
> > > >
> > > > I agree with that, too. How is teaching language different relative
> to
> > > > the Foundation Mission than teaching subjects of encyclopedia
> > > > articles?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > We are not *teaching* encyclopedia articles. We are making it possible
> to
> > > write them and to read them. It is not the same thing as teaching
> > subjects.
> > >
> > > Should we do teaching? Maybe, but since it's different from making it
> > > possible to write and read, I'm afraid it would be losing focus.
> > >
> > > Is there anything bad about teaching languages? Of course not. It's
> > great.
> > > I'm just not sure that it's the right thing for Wikimedia to do, when
> > > Wikimedia should be busy getting even better at its main thing: wiki
> > > articles.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
> > > http://aharoni.wordpress.com
> > > ‪“We're living in pieces,
> > > I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

Amir E. Aharoni
In reply to this post by Jean-Philippe Béland
2018-02-28 16:03 GMT+02:00 Jean-Philippe Béland <[hidden email]>:
>
> The Wikimedia movement is more than encyclopedias... We already have
> Wikiversity for teaching, no? Are efforts to contribute to Wikiversity and
> other sister projects making us lose focus? I'm not sure to understand
what
> you are saying.

Paid translation of Wikipedia articles to underresourced languages is a
project that I can easily imagine. What needs to be done is quite clear;
the questions are how to get the resources for this, and how to make it not
too biased for undesirable interests, neither Western nor local.

Improving Wikiversity (or Wikibooks) is possibly a valid thing, but I just
don't know how to do it. Of course, I'm not the only person in this
movement; I'm just one of thousands of editors, and I also happen to be an
analyst in the Foundation staff, and my decision-making capacities are
very, very limited. If anybody has a *good* idea on how to improve them, it
would be awesome.

When I compare a project with a pretty easy-to-draft path, and an
understandable goal (paid translation, growing a language's online
presence), to a project the goal of which is finding ideas for how to
improve Wikiversity, I'd bet my resources on paid translation (if it even
was my decision to make). And I have to remind again, that I, in
particular, am very biased about the topic of translation, so really, you
don't have to agree with me ;)

--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
‪“We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

Yaroslav Blanter
One idea which was spelled out many times but never took off is that of a
Wiki-compendium. If we are talking about a language which is let us say not
endangered, has a reasonably large number of speakers but not millions, and
only has a limited number of sources published in this language - the
Wiki-community is typically not large, may be a dozen or a couple of dozens
speakers. Yakut  (Sakha) is a good example of such language, Tatar would be
another one. They do not have resources to support Wikipedia, Wikisource,
and possibly even Wikibooks and Wiktionary at the same time, and they have
to concentrate on Wikipedia as the largest project. The idea was that for
such languages the traditional division between sister projects is not
really useful, but one project, which would comprise Wikipedia, Wikisource,
and possibly others would be much better so that the editors would just be
in one central place, and every speaker of this language would know what
the place is. The idea is old, at least as old as LangCom, and the fact it
never took off probably means that it is somehow flawed - I just do not
know how.

Cheers
Yaroslav

On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 3:59 PM, Amir E. Aharoni <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> 2018-02-28 16:03 GMT+02:00 Jean-Philippe Béland <[hidden email]>:
> >
> > The Wikimedia movement is more than encyclopedias... We already have
> > Wikiversity for teaching, no? Are efforts to contribute to Wikiversity
> and
> > other sister projects making us lose focus? I'm not sure to understand
> what
> > you are saying.
>
> Paid translation of Wikipedia articles to underresourced languages is a
> project that I can easily imagine. What needs to be done is quite clear;
> the questions are how to get the resources for this, and how to make it not
> too biased for undesirable interests, neither Western nor local.
>
> Improving Wikiversity (or Wikibooks) is possibly a valid thing, but I just
> don't know how to do it. Of course, I'm not the only person in this
> movement; I'm just one of thousands of editors, and I also happen to be an
> analyst in the Foundation staff, and my decision-making capacities are
> very, very limited. If anybody has a *good* idea on how to improve them, it
> would be awesome.
>
> When I compare a project with a pretty easy-to-draft path, and an
> understandable goal (paid translation, growing a language's online
> presence), to a project the goal of which is finding ideas for how to
> improve Wikiversity, I'd bet my resources on paid translation (if it even
> was my decision to make). And I have to remind again, that I, in
> particular, am very biased about the topic of translation, so really, you
> don't have to agree with me ;)
>
> --
> Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
> http://aharoni.wordpress.com
> ‪“We're living in pieces,
> I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

petrohs el compa obrero
In reply to this post by mathieu lovato stumpf guntz
wikipedia offline
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiwix

On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 9:50 AM, mathieu stumpf guntz <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Le 27/02/2018 à 12:42, Vi to a écrit :
>
>> I see Amir's points, which are pretty reasonable, but I fear this would
>> suit languages with a significant presence on the web.
>>
>> Among them I agree with points 1, 3 and 4 while I'm not sure about #2
>> "creating
>> basic encyclopedic terminology and style in that language", if we want to
>> preserve a language we shouldn't create a thing.
>>
> I think that here the term "preserving" is misinterpreted. It's not about
> stuff it to put it in a nothing-should-move-anymore museum. It's about
> preserving actual use of diverse language as diachronic phenomena, ie as
> evolving objects.
>
> On this regard, even largest language communities are seeing their use
> changing at an increasing pace, as recognize institutions like Académie
> française (not quite your average neologismophilic neo-punk band).
>
> I think it's also good to recall that there are places where there is not
> yet a a high bandwith reliable internet (or internet at all), but that
> computer are accessibles. For example Libraries Without Borders[2] are
> providing computer boxes, which do include some Wikimedia material if I'm
> not mistaken. Although I'm not enough informed on their actions, but it
> would interesting to be in contact with them if it's not already the case.
> Making encyclopedia shared through travelling USB key would be surely
> possible for example, but that just a sketched idea.
>
> On the other hand, should we recall that we are losing language diversity
> at an increasing pace?[3] And of course when a language die, it's whole
> culture which go with it like a bush medicine engraved in aboriginal
> vocabulary.[4] So really it's not about bringing knowledge to communities
> with less geopolitcally influence, it's about giving mankind a chance to
> loose as few as possible of valuable knowledge by diffusing it omnidirectly.
>
>
> [1] Parce qu’il doit être tout à la fois le greffier de l’usage, le témoin
> de l’histoire et celui du changement le Dictionnaire de l’Académie aura
> donc presque doublé de volume. En consacrant ainsi un très grand nombre de
> mots nouveaux, l’Académie répond aux exigences du temps mais elle se montre
> fidèle aussi à sa tradition. http://www.academie-francaise.
> fr/la-langue-francaise-langue-de-la-modernite-seance-publique-annuelle
> [2] https://www.librarieswithoutborders.org/
> [3] http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/unesco-half-worlds-languages-will-
> disappear-by-2100-1498154
> [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_medicine
>
>
>
> By the way I was wondering my concerns about cultural colonization may be
>> addressed -for wikis which has some contents (let's say at least 1000
>> articles)- by starting expanding existing articles instead of translating
>> new ones. This would solve the problem of choosing what to translate
>> though
>> would leave problems about the perspective contents are created.
>>
>> Vito
>>
>> 2018-02-27 12:31 GMT+01:00 Amir E. Aharoni <[hidden email]>
>> :
>>
>> 2018-02-27 13:00 GMT+02:00 mathieu stumpf guntz <
>>> [hidden email]>:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Le 24/02/2018 à 18:08, Vi to a écrit :
>>>>
>>>> *finally I think paid translators would hardly turn into stable
>>>>> Wikipedians.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think this misses an important point that is, we don't need the
>>>>>
>>>> initial
>>>
>>>> translator to turn into a sustaining editor, we need the article to
>>>>
>>> evolve
>>>
>>>> with call to action incentives. And articles which don't exist at all –
>>>> even as a stub – or don't meet an audience of potential contributors
>>>> will
>>>> never catch such an evolving cycle.
>>>>
>>>
>>> This is one of the issues with what I alluded to in my earlier email in
>>> this thread: the privilege that the "big" languages have. It's the
>>> privilege of already having other encyclopedias, textbooks, public
>>> education, etc., in this language. A lot of languages don't have these
>>> things. When you speak a language that has had these things before
>>> Wikipedia came along, it's hard to perceive the world like a person who
>>> speaks a language that doesn't perceives it.
>>>
>>> If you define the purpose of paying somebody to translate as "turning the
>>> paid translator" into a sustaining editor, then this is indeed likely to
>>> fail.
>>>
>>> But if you define the purpose differently, it may succeed. For example,
>>> you
>>> may define the purpose as one or more of the following:
>>> * Demonstrating that it's possible to write an encyclopedia in that
>>> language
>>> * Creating basic encyclopedic terminology and style in that language
>>> * Creating a bunch of basic articles that would appear in interlanguage
>>> links in Wikipedias from bigger languages (English, French, etc.)
>>> * Creating a bunch of basic articles that would appear in search results
>>> from internet search engines
>>>
>>> The existence of these things may bring in people who will become
>>> volunteer
>>> sustaining editors.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
>>> http://aharoni.wordpress.com
>>> ‪“We're living in pieces,
>>> I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬
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>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

Pine W
In reply to this post by Yaroslav Blanter
Hi Yaroslav,

I like this idea of a compendium. It reminds me of cross-wiki search and
the ability to look up words on mobile Wikipedia. I believe that WMF
Discovery has been working on cross-wiki search. Perhaps, for smaller
communities, there would be a way to extend the Discovery team's efforts
into supporting the compendium that you describe. If LangCom or certain
language communities would be interested in this then I would encourage
those interested people to contact the Discovery team.

There might also be people from SWMT and from Community Tech who would be
interested in this idea.

Pine
( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )

On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 7:40 AM, Yaroslav Blanter <[hidden email]> wrote:

> One idea which was spelled out many times but never took off is that of a
> Wiki-compendium. If we are talking about a language which is let us say not
> endangered, has a reasonably large number of speakers but not millions, and
> only has a limited number of sources published in this language - the
> Wiki-community is typically not large, may be a dozen or a couple of dozens
> speakers. Yakut  (Sakha) is a good example of such language, Tatar would be
> another one. They do not have resources to support Wikipedia, Wikisource,
> and possibly even Wikibooks and Wiktionary at the same time, and they have
> to concentrate on Wikipedia as the largest project. The idea was that for
> such languages the traditional division between sister projects is not
> really useful, but one project, which would comprise Wikipedia, Wikisource,
> and possibly others would be much better so that the editors would just be
> in one central place, and every speaker of this language would know what
> the place is. The idea is old, at least as old as LangCom, and the fact it
> never took off probably means that it is somehow flawed - I just do not
> know how.
>
> Cheers
> Yaroslav
>
> On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 3:59 PM, Amir E. Aharoni <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > 2018-02-28 16:03 GMT+02:00 Jean-Philippe Béland <[hidden email]>:
> > >
> > > The Wikimedia movement is more than encyclopedias... We already have
> > > Wikiversity for teaching, no? Are efforts to contribute to Wikiversity
> > and
> > > other sister projects making us lose focus? I'm not sure to understand
> > what
> > > you are saying.
> >
> > Paid translation of Wikipedia articles to underresourced languages is a
> > project that I can easily imagine. What needs to be done is quite clear;
> > the questions are how to get the resources for this, and how to make it
> not
> > too biased for undesirable interests, neither Western nor local.
> >
> > Improving Wikiversity (or Wikibooks) is possibly a valid thing, but I
> just
> > don't know how to do it. Of course, I'm not the only person in this
> > movement; I'm just one of thousands of editors, and I also happen to be
> an
> > analyst in the Foundation staff, and my decision-making capacities are
> > very, very limited. If anybody has a *good* idea on how to improve them,
> it
> > would be awesome.
> >
> > When I compare a project with a pretty easy-to-draft path, and an
> > understandable goal (paid translation, growing a language's online
> > presence), to a project the goal of which is finding ideas for how to
> > improve Wikiversity, I'd bet my resources on paid translation (if it even
> > was my decision to make). And I have to remind again, that I, in
> > particular, am very biased about the topic of translation, so really, you
> > don't have to agree with me ;)
> >
> > --
> > Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
> > http://aharoni.wordpress.com
> > ‪“We're living in pieces,
> > I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬
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