[Wikimedia-l] Planned school curriculum by MPAA

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[Wikimedia-l] Planned school curriculum by MPAA

David Gerard-2
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/09/mpaa-school-propaganda/

“This thinly disguised corporate propaganda is inaccurate and
inappropriate,” says Mitch Stoltz, an intellectual property attorney
with the Electronic Frontier Foundation, who reviewed the material at
WIRED’s request.

“It suggests, falsely, that ideas are property and that building on
others’ ideas always requires permission,” Stoltz says. “The
overriding message of this curriculum is that students’ time should be
consumed not in creating but in worrying about their impact on
corporate profits.”


I suggest we see if WMF commenting, possibly in a blog post or
similar, would help avert such anti-sharing foolishness.


- d.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Planned school curriculum by MPAA

geni
On 24 September 2013 17:42, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/09/mpaa-school-propaganda/
>
> “This thinly disguised corporate propaganda is inaccurate and
> inappropriate,” says Mitch Stoltz, an intellectual property attorney
> with the Electronic Frontier Foundation, who reviewed the material at
> WIRED’s request.
>
> “It suggests, falsely, that ideas are property and that building on
> others’ ideas always requires permission,” Stoltz says. “The
> overriding message of this curriculum is that students’ time should be
> consumed not in creating but in worrying about their impact on
> corporate profits.”
>
>
> I suggest we see if WMF commenting, possibly in a blog post or
> similar, would help avert such anti-sharing foolishness.
>
>
> - d.
>

Might not be a great idea
Its an improvement on previous attempts (to start with It doesn't appear to
violate the GFDL) and we would actually benefit from our uploaders having a
working knowledge of copyright. Knowing all the exceptions is something
best left to more experienced users.

--
geni
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Planned school curriculum by MPAA

Tyler Romeo
What exactly does this have to do with the WMF? Just because we encourage
open sharing of data doesn't mean we need to comment on every political
debate that shows up on the news.

*-- *
*Tyler Romeo*
Stevens Institute of Technology, Class of 2016
Major in Computer Science


On Tue, Sep 24, 2013 at 1:21 PM, geni <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 24 September 2013 17:42, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/09/mpaa-school-propaganda/
> >
> > “This thinly disguised corporate propaganda is inaccurate and
> > inappropriate,” says Mitch Stoltz, an intellectual property attorney
> > with the Electronic Frontier Foundation, who reviewed the material at
> > WIRED’s request.
> >
> > “It suggests, falsely, that ideas are property and that building on
> > others’ ideas always requires permission,” Stoltz says. “The
> > overriding message of this curriculum is that students’ time should be
> > consumed not in creating but in worrying about their impact on
> > corporate profits.”
> >
> >
> > I suggest we see if WMF commenting, possibly in a blog post or
> > similar, would help avert such anti-sharing foolishness.
> >
> >
> > - d.
> >
>
> Might not be a great idea
> Its an improvement on previous attempts (to start with It doesn't appear to
> violate the GFDL) and we would actually benefit from our uploaders having a
> working knowledge of copyright. Knowing all the exceptions is something
> best left to more experienced users.
>
> --
> geni
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Planned school curriculum by MPAA

Andrew Lih
I disagree that this is simply "political."

It is very much a culture of ownership -- and a corporate one at that --
being instituted earlier to American kids.

If you remember, it was exactly this problem that inspired Lawrence Lessig
to start Creative Commons in the first place. He observed that there was a
critical inflection point -- when kids are first taught to share and
cooperate and then are flipped to hoard and restrict.

This amplifies hoarding and restricting at the same time kids are taught to
share. I'm glad I moved out of California before this propaganda was
introduced to my kids.

-Andrew





On Tue, Sep 24, 2013 at 1:29 PM, Tyler Romeo <[hidden email]> wrote:

> What exactly does this have to do with the WMF? Just because we encourage
> open sharing of data doesn't mean we need to comment on every political
> debate that shows up on the news.
>
> *-- *
> *Tyler Romeo*
> Stevens Institute of Technology, Class of 2016
> Major in Computer Science
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 24, 2013 at 1:21 PM, geni <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On 24 September 2013 17:42, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/09/mpaa-school-propaganda/
> > >
> > > “This thinly disguised corporate propaganda is inaccurate and
> > > inappropriate,” says Mitch Stoltz, an intellectual property attorney
> > > with the Electronic Frontier Foundation, who reviewed the material at
> > > WIRED’s request.
> > >
> > > “It suggests, falsely, that ideas are property and that building on
> > > others’ ideas always requires permission,” Stoltz says. “The
> > > overriding message of this curriculum is that students’ time should be
> > > consumed not in creating but in worrying about their impact on
> > > corporate profits.”
> > >
> > >
> > > I suggest we see if WMF commenting, possibly in a blog post or
> > > similar, would help avert such anti-sharing foolishness.
> > >
> > >
> > > - d.
> > >
> >
> > Might not be a great idea
> > Its an improvement on previous attempts (to start with It doesn't appear
> to
> > violate the GFDL) and we would actually benefit from our uploaders
> having a
> > working knowledge of copyright. Knowing all the exceptions is something
> > best left to more experienced users.
> >
> > --
> > geni
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Planned school curriculum by MPAA

Tyler Romeo
On Wed, Sep 25, 2013 at 9:50 AM, Andrew Lih <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I disagree that this is simply "political."


This doesn't answer my original question. What does this have to do with
WMF? Wikipedia does not own any public schools in California, nor will
Wikipedia be affected by this curriculum should it be implemented. The only
similarity is that is has something to do with knowledge, which is
extremely vague.

*-- *
*Tyler Romeo*
Stevens Institute of Technology, Class of 2016
Major in Computer Science
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Planned school curriculum by MPAA

Andrew Lih
It has something to do with countering falsehoods and educating folks about
the full range of content rights.

Their 2nd grade materials state:
"Property comes in many forms: when we buy a book, we own that book. It’s
our property, but we don’t own the right to reproduce that book and then
sell it or give it away. That’s stealing."

Um, no. A Creative Commons SA book, a public domain work or expired
copyright work can indeed be reproduced. And it's not stealing.

"We are careful to acknowledge the work of authors and creators and respect
their ownership. We recognize that it’s hard work to produce something, and
we want to get paid for our work."

No, not all people want to get paid for their work.


I'd be OK if they simply gave some space in the training materials to talk
about public domain, free licenses and fair use. That's not likely to
happen given who's in control of those lesson plans.





On Wed, Sep 25, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Tyler Romeo <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Wed, Sep 25, 2013 at 9:50 AM, Andrew Lih <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > I disagree that this is simply "political."
>
>
> This doesn't answer my original question. What does this have to do with
> WMF? Wikipedia does not own any public schools in California, nor will
> Wikipedia be affected by this curriculum should it be implemented. The only
> similarity is that is has something to do with knowledge, which is
> extremely vague.
>
> *-- *
> *Tyler Romeo*
> Stevens Institute of Technology, Class of 2016
> Major in Computer Science
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Planned school curriculum by MPAA

Tyler Romeo
On Wed, Sep 25, 2013 at 2:33 PM, Andrew Lih <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I'd be OK if they simply gave some space in the training materials to talk
> about public domain, free licenses and fair use. That's not likely to
> happen given who's in control of those lesson plans.
>

You're still just arguing about the correctness of the material. I agree
that this curriculum is stupid and misleading, but that doesn't explain why
the WMF should care enough to make a statement, or even continue
discussion, about it.

*-- *
*Tyler Romeo*
Stevens Institute of Technology, Class of 2016
Major in Computer Science
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Planned school curriculum by MPAA

Andrew Lih
The California school system is the back yard (actually front yard) of both
Wikimedia Foundation and Creative Commons.

From the message on the web site, the WMF is a "nonprofit charitable
organization dedicated to encouraging the growth, development and
distribution of free, multilingual, educational content, and to providing
the full content of these wiki-based projects to the public free of charge."

Inside a California public school, the WMF should indeed have an interest
in making sure that students using Wikipedia don't think to themselves that
using such material is "stealing" and that someone is expecting to be
"paid."




On Wed, Sep 25, 2013 at 3:09 PM, Tyler Romeo <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Wed, Sep 25, 2013 at 2:33 PM, Andrew Lih <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > I'd be OK if they simply gave some space in the training materials to
> talk
> > about public domain, free licenses and fair use. That's not likely to
> > happen given who's in control of those lesson plans.
> >
>
> You're still just arguing about the correctness of the material. I agree
> that this curriculum is stupid and misleading, but that doesn't explain why
> the WMF should care enough to make a statement, or even continue
> discussion, about it.
>
> *-- *
> *Tyler Romeo*
> Stevens Institute of Technology, Class of 2016
> Major in Computer Science
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Planned school curriculum by MPAA

David Gerard-2
On 25 September 2013 20:23, Andrew Lih <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From the message on the web site, the WMF is a "nonprofit charitable
> organization dedicated to encouraging the growth, development and
> distribution of free, multilingual, educational content, and to providing
> the full content of these wiki-based projects to the public free of charge."
> Inside a California public school, the WMF should indeed have an interest
> in making sure that students using Wikipedia don't think to themselves that
> using such material is "stealing" and that someone is expecting to be
> "paid."



Pretty much. It's in our direct interest that this not go ahead as planned.


- d.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Planned school curriculum by MPAA

Michael Snow-5
In reply to this post by Andrew Lih
On 9/25/2013 11:33 AM, Andrew Lih wrote:
> I'd be OK if they simply gave some space in the training materials to talk
> about public domain, free licenses and fair use. That's not likely to
> happen given who's in control of those lesson plans.
Because the program in question is intended for elementary schools, they
claim that the children aren't ready to handle the level of nuance and
abstract thought involved in those concepts. I might be willing to
accept that objection, but it really should be taken a step farther. At
that stage, most children aren't developmentally ready for the level of
abstraction involved in copyright, period. Neither the things it forbids
nor the things it allows.

A second-grader who wants to draw Buzz Lightyear, because that's her
favorite cartoon character and she wants to be an astronaut, is never
going to understand that Pixar owns the rights to that character and she
can't do whatever she wants with it. ("Honey, why don't you just put
away the crayons and come play with your action figure instead?") ("Yes,
I know Grandma buys your artwork for a quarter so she can put it on her
refrigerator, but you're not allowed to give her this one.") You can
tell her what's allowed and what's not, and she may even comply, but
there's no way she will understand the reasons, in her mind they will
simply be rules that you made up.

That's a particularly good sign that the purpose of the materials is
really propaganda and indoctrination. Regardless of whether the
curriculum is suitably "balanced", the concepts are beyond what's
developmentally appropriate to be teaching at that level.

--Michael Snow

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Planned school curriculum by MPAA

Jens Best
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2
This is obviously a propaganda campaign focused on children which isn't
reflecting on the variety of ownership and sharing-enabling licences. It is
against the idea of free knowledge. Therefore it is a
political/sociocultural problem which is against the spreading of the
knowledge about free knowledge and its basic principles.

But as this is an US-American problem it should be handled by an
US-American Wikimedia chapter...as there is imo no US-American chapter WMF
could act as a representative for Wikimedia-related problems in an
US-country education system.

best regards

Jens Best



2013/9/25 David Gerard <[hidden email]>

> On 25 September 2013 20:23, Andrew Lih <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > From the message on the web site, the WMF is a "nonprofit charitable
> > organization dedicated to encouraging the growth, development and
> > distribution of free, multilingual, educational content, and to providing
> > the full content of these wiki-based projects to the public free of
> charge."
> > Inside a California public school, the WMF should indeed have an interest
> > in making sure that students using Wikipedia don't think to themselves
> that
> > using such material is "stealing" and that someone is expecting to be
> > "paid."
>
>
>
> Pretty much. It's in our direct interest that this not go ahead as planned.
>
>
> - d.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>



--
--
Jens Best
Präsidium
Wikimedia Deutschland e.V.
web: http://www.wikimedia.de
mail: jens.best <http://goog_17221883>@wikimedia.de

Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V.
Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts
Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig
anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin,
Steuernummer 27/681/51985.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Planned school curriculum by MPAA

Andrew Lih
You are right, that the lack of a national US chapter holds us back.

The obvious solution is to create a new group: Committee of Wikipedian
Parents Interested in Education, aka COWPIE




On Wed, Sep 25, 2013 at 4:06 PM, Jens Best <[hidden email]> wrote:

> This is obviously a propaganda campaign focused on children which isn't
> reflecting on the variety of ownership and sharing-enabling licences. It is
> against the idea of free knowledge. Therefore it is a
> political/sociocultural problem which is against the spreading of the
> knowledge about free knowledge and its basic principles.
>
> But as this is an US-American problem it should be handled by an
> US-American Wikimedia chapter...as there is imo no US-American chapter WMF
> could act as a representative for Wikimedia-related problems in an
> US-country education system.
>
> best regards
>
> Jens Best
>
>
>
> 2013/9/25 David Gerard <[hidden email]>
>
> > On 25 September 2013 20:23, Andrew Lih <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > From the message on the web site, the WMF is a "nonprofit charitable
> > > organization dedicated to encouraging the growth, development and
> > > distribution of free, multilingual, educational content, and to
> providing
> > > the full content of these wiki-based projects to the public free of
> > charge."
> > > Inside a California public school, the WMF should indeed have an
> interest
> > > in making sure that students using Wikipedia don't think to themselves
> > that
> > > using such material is "stealing" and that someone is expecting to be
> > > "paid."
> >
> >
> >
> > Pretty much. It's in our direct interest that this not go ahead as
> planned.
> >
> >
> > - d.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
>
>
>
> --
> --
> Jens Best
> Präsidium
> Wikimedia Deutschland e.V.
> web: http://www.wikimedia.de
> mail: jens.best <http://goog_17221883>@wikimedia.de
>
> Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V.
> Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts
> Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig
> anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin,
> Steuernummer 27/681/51985.
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Planned school curriculum by MPAA

Andrew Lih
In reply to this post by Michael Snow-5
Michael, you are correct -- we should push for just ditching the whole
thing.



On Wed, Sep 25, 2013 at 3:56 PM, Michael Snow <[hidden email]>wrote:

> On 9/25/2013 11:33 AM, Andrew Lih wrote:
>
>> I'd be OK if they simply gave some space in the training materials to talk
>> about public domain, free licenses and fair use. That's not likely to
>> happen given who's in control of those lesson plans.
>>
> Because the program in question is intended for elementary schools, they
> claim that the children aren't ready to handle the level of nuance and
> abstract thought involved in those concepts. I might be willing to accept
> that objection, but it really should be taken a step farther. At that
> stage, most children aren't developmentally ready for the level of
> abstraction involved in copyright, period. Neither the things it forbids
> nor the things it allows.
>
> A second-grader who wants to draw Buzz Lightyear, because that's her
> favorite cartoon character and she wants to be an astronaut, is never going
> to understand that Pixar owns the rights to that character and she can't do
> whatever she wants with it. ("Honey, why don't you just put away the
> crayons and come play with your action figure instead?") ("Yes, I know
> Grandma buys your artwork for a quarter so she can put it on her
> refrigerator, but you're not allowed to give her this one.") You can tell
> her what's allowed and what's not, and she may even comply, but there's no
> way she will understand the reasons, in her mind they will simply be rules
> that you made up.
>
> That's a particularly good sign that the purpose of the materials is
> really propaganda and indoctrination. Regardless of whether the curriculum
> is suitably "balanced", the concepts are beyond what's developmentally
> appropriate to be teaching at that level.
>
> --Michael Snow
>
>
> ______________________________**_________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Planned school curriculum by MPAA

James Alexander-3
In reply to this post by Andrew Lih
On Wed, Sep 25, 2013 at 2:43 PM, Andrew Lih <[hidden email]> wrote:

> You are right, that the lack of a national US chapter holds us back.
>
> The obvious solution is to create a new group: Committee of Wikipedian
> Parents Interested in Education, aka COWPIE
>
>
I feel like I'm obligated to make some kind of COWPIE/WALRUS related joke
here but I can't come up with one yet.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Planned school curriculum by MPAA

Kat Walsh-4
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2
On Tue, Sep 24, 2013 at 9:42 AM, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/09/mpaa-school-propaganda/
>
[...]


> I suggest we see if WMF commenting, possibly in a blog post or
> similar, would help avert such anti-sharing foolishness


I doubt it would avert it, though pointing it out might at least draw
attention. I agree with the comment that it's a ridiculous idea to
introduce in elementary school (and I would be surprised if it did not
simply die on its own, along with many actual good ideas for curriculum
supplementation that simply can't be packed in to the school day).

Creative Commons now has a blog post up from Jane Park, criticizing the
program and pointing out the alternatives that exist:
https://creativecommons.org/weblog/entry/39781

(I am reminded of the clever "If you don't talk to your children about
copyright, who will?", also available in bumper-sticker format:
http://questioncopyright.com/qco-stk-chld.html )

-Kat

--
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Planned school curriculum by MPAA

geni
In reply to this post by Andrew Lih
On 25 September 2013 19:33, Andrew Lih <[hidden email]> wrote:

> It has something to do with countering falsehoods and educating folks about
> the full range of content rights.
>
> Their 2nd grade materials state:
> "Property comes in many forms: when we buy a book, we own that book. It’s
> our property, but we don’t own the right to reproduce that book and then
> sell it or give it away. That’s stealing."
>
> Um, no. A Creative Commons SA book,


The course covers creative commons.


> a public domain work or expired
> copyright work can indeed be reproduced. And it's not stealing.
>

Varies. what can catch you out there is that it may be possible to
copyright typography (in the UK that copyright lasts for 20 years).



geni
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Planned school curriculum by MPAA

Laura Hale
In reply to this post by Tyler Romeo
On Wed, Sep 25, 2013 at 9:09 PM, Tyler Romeo <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Wed, Sep 25, 2013 at 2:33 PM, Andrew Lih <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > I'd be OK if they simply gave some space in the training materials to
> talk
> > about public domain, free licenses and fair use. That's not likely to
> > happen given who's in control of those lesson plans.
> >
>
> You're still just arguing about the correctness of the material. I agree
> that this curriculum is stupid and misleading, but that doesn't explain why
> the WMF should care enough to make a statement, or even continue
> discussion, about it.


One alternative option would be to work with the Education folks and create
Wikimedia centric lesson plans for teachers to use that share the values
people are expressing.  These can be linked on education outreach pages,
distributed to chapters, etc.  Or general handouts can be made that explain
these concepts ad the linked on
https://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/Bookshelf . This is a nice option
because it is pro-active and community driven.  If some one does approach
the WMF externally asking for support on this issue, they have the
materials to then work with.

--
twitter: purplepopple
blog: ozziesport.com
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Planned school curriculum by MPAA

Andrew Lih
In reply to this post by geni
On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 12:40 AM, geni <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 25 September 2013 19:33, Andrew Lih <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > It has something to do with countering falsehoods and educating folks
> about
> > the full range of content rights.
> >
> > Their 2nd grade materials state:
> > "Property comes in many forms: when we buy a book, we own that book. It’s
> > our property, but we don’t own the right to reproduce that book and then
> > sell it or give it away. That’s stealing."
> >
> > Um, no. A Creative Commons SA book,
>
>
> The course covers creative commons.
>
>
Not that I can see. Creative Commons in not in the lesson plan for 2nd
graders.

http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/threatlevel/2013/09/Grade-2-Copyright-Lesson.pdf

Creative Commons is introduced in 5th grade.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Planned school curriculum by MPAA

???
In reply to this post by Andrew Lih
On 25/09/2013 19:33, Andrew Lih wrote:

> It has something to do with countering falsehoods and educating folks about
> the full range of content rights.
>
> Their 2nd grade materials state:
> "Property comes in many forms: when we buy a book, we own that book. It’s
> our property, but we don’t own the right to reproduce that book and then
> sell it or give it away. That’s stealing."
>
> Um, no. A Creative Commons SA book, a public domain work or expired
> copyright work can indeed be reproduced. And it's not stealing.


The chances of them coming across either is vanishingly small when
compared to the bulk of content they'll come into contact with. I guess
that 2nd grade is 7 yo, when I was 15 I was taught that electrons
circled about a central nucleus in neat little orbits, when I was 16 I
was taught that the reality was a lot different.


>
> "We are careful to acknowledge the work of authors and creators and respect
> their ownership. We recognize that it’s hard work to produce something, and
> we want to get paid for our work."
>
> No, not all people want to get paid for their work.
>


Most do. Most of the things we hold to be culturally significant are
indeed paid. In fact wikipedia wouldn't exist if it was for the content
in books, magazines, and articles that people had been paid to produce.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Planned school curriculum by MPAA

Andrew Lih
On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 4:19 PM, ??? <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> Most do. Most of the things we hold to be culturally significant are
> indeed paid. In fact wikipedia wouldn't exist if it was for the content in
> books, magazines, and articles that people had been paid to produce.
>
>
Seeing no real identifying information from your email address, I'm not
sure if this is just troll-bait.

But you should read up on public domain, government sources, Creative
Commons and their roles in Wikipedia.
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