[Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

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[Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

Rui Correia-2
Greetings to All

Let me start by saying that I don't do much here at the WP, not compared to
people who make hundreds of edits a week. I would love to, have a long list
of "to-do", but unfortunately time is not on my side.

In my limited involvemet here, I have seen many a good editor leave the
project. Mostly, people leave because they can't take it anymore having to
fight the 'blocks' of defenders that coalesce around certain topics.

In itself, though not very healthy, such blocks forming around topis is
fine. What is not fine is that if any issue gets referred to a higher
process for a resolution, it is often the same people grouping of people
previously involved in disputes on the same topic who come to the
resolution forum to issue a decision. However, it is always the 'outsider'
that loses. He gets acused of everything under the sun, and gets 'good
advice' from supposedly neutral editors, urging him to calm down, to temper
his language etc. It is like trying to point out that the earth is round at
a monthly meetng of the fat-earthers. That is not healthy and is making the
WP processes look like a kangaroo court run by a cabal.

And I expect pretty much the same reaction to this email.

I pointed out in an ealier email to this list the difficulty that one
encounters when you include something negative about certain big
corporations. I was stoned and made to feel that I was wrong and everbody
else was right. The reaction was tantamount to a chorus of "yes, we know
there are problems, but don't say it out loud, someone might hear you!".

Let's for argument's say that I was wrong. But - more importantantly - was
anything done to investigate what I was saying? What if there are legions
out there paid to sanitise the pages of big corporations? And we know that
they exist, and that WP has taken up the issue as in here,
http://nick-xomba-ceo.xomba.com/microsoft_accused_of_paying_blogger_to_alter_wikipedia_articles

I made a silly remark on a Talk page about the choice of the word
"downgrade" to refer to people using Windows 8 who wanted to go back to XP.
For a failed product, by Microsoft's own admission, going back to XP is an
upgrade, going back to sanity, not a downgrade.

I was first accused of trolling, then something else, then of offending the
entire community of users of Windows 8. The editor who is adamant - not the
first time - to purge ant-MS from the talkpage violated the 3RR, but
nothing gets done about it. I reported the 3RR, and it was immediately
closed, labelled as being relatiatory. There is a backlog of issues on that
page, but my entry was closed within minutes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:Codename_Lisa_reported_by_User:Rui_Gabriel_Correia_.28Result:_Closed.29

It was closed, claiming that it was already being addressed elsewhere.

So, I too will consider my stay here. Like I said right at the top, I don't
do much here, so I am certain I will not even be missed. I edit in eight
languages, small little bits here and there. I participated in a number of
initiaves on the development of Chapters in Africa and am happy to see that
things are moving. I had the honour and privilege to meet Jimmy Wales in
South Africa and to discuss a few things relating to WP in Africa.

So, it is time to wind down anr retire into a corner. I am busy with a
novel, I am sure that is where I should invest my time and energy.

Sincere regards to all, happy editing

Rui Correia






--
_________________________
Rui Correia
Advocacy, Human Rights, Media and Language Work Consultant
Bridge to Angola - Angola Liaison Consultant

Mobile Number in South Africa +27 74 425 4186
Número de Telemóvel na África do Sul +27 74 425 4186
_______________
_______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

Lars Gardenius
I think you are completely right and it is a big problem in the Wiki-world that is not being addressed by anyone in a leading position.

Regards,
Lars Gardenius




________________________________
 Von: Rui Correia <[hidden email]>
An: Wikimedia Mailing List <[hidden email]>
Gesendet: 23:08 Mittwoch, 4.September 2013
Betreff: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself
 

Greetings to All

Let me start by saying that I don't do much here at the WP, not compared to
people who make hundreds of edits a week. I would love to, have a long list
of "to-do", but unfortunately time is not on my side.

In my limited involvemet here, I have seen many a good editor leave the
project. Mostly, people leave because they can't take it anymore having to
fight the 'blocks' of defenders that coalesce around certain topics.

In itself, though not very healthy, such blocks forming around topis is
fine. What is not fine is that if any issue gets referred to a higher
process for a resolution, it is often the same people grouping of people
previously involved in disputes on the same topic who come to the
resolution forum to issue a decision. However, it is always the 'outsider'
that loses. He gets acused of everything under the sun, and gets 'good
advice' from supposedly neutral editors, urging him to calm down, to temper
his language etc. It is like trying to point out that the earth is round at
a monthly meetng of the fat-earthers. That is not healthy and is making the
WP processes look like a kangaroo court run by a cabal.

And I expect pretty much the same reaction to this email.

I pointed out in an ealier email to this list the difficulty that one
encounters when you include something negative about certain big
corporations. I was stoned and made to feel that I was wrong and everbody
else was right. The reaction was tantamount to a chorus of "yes, we know
there are problems, but don't say it out loud, someone might hear you!".

Let's for argument's say that I was wrong. But - more importantantly - was
anything done to investigate what I was saying? What if there are legions
out there paid to sanitise the pages of big corporations? And we know that
they exist, and that WP has taken up the issue as in here,
http://nick-xomba-ceo.xomba.com/microsoft_accused_of_paying_blogger_to_alter_wikipedia_articles

I made a silly remark on a Talk page about the choice of the word
"downgrade" to refer to people using Windows 8 who wanted to go back to XP.
For a failed product, by Microsoft's own admission, going back to XP is an
upgrade, going back to sanity, not a downgrade.

I was first accused of trolling, then something else, then of offending the
entire community of users of Windows 8. The editor who is adamant - not the
first time - to purge ant-MS from the talkpage violated the 3RR, but
nothing gets done about it. I reported the 3RR, and it was immediately
closed, labelled as being relatiatory. There is a backlog of issues on that
page, but my entry was closed within minutes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:Codename_Lisa_reported_by_User:Rui_Gabriel_Correia_.28Result:_Closed.29

It was closed, claiming that it was already being addressed elsewhere.

So, I too will consider my stay here. Like I said right at the top, I don't
do much here, so I am certain I will not even be missed. I edit in eight
languages, small little bits here and there. I participated in a number of
initiaves on the development of Chapters in Africa and am happy to see that
things are moving. I had the honour and privilege to meet Jimmy Wales in
South Africa and to discuss a few things relating to WP in Africa.

So, it is time to wind down anr retire into a corner. I am busy with a
novel, I am sure that is where I should invest my time and energy.

Sincere regards to all, happy editing

Rui Correia






--
_________________________
Rui Correia
Advocacy, Human Rights, Media and Language Work Consultant
Bridge to Angola - Angola Liaison Consultant

Mobile Number in South Africa +27 74 425 4186
Número de Telemóvel na África do Sul +27 74 425 4186
_______________
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

Fred Bauder-2
It is addressed but by a rather complicated and demanding process. See
Wikipedia:Dispute resolution. Not really workable for new users who bump
up against well-established users who have bad habits, or have learned
that nasty behavior pays off in being able to control content.

Fred

> I think you are completely right and it is a big problem in the
> Wiki-world that is not being addressed by anyone in a leading position.
>
> Regards,
> Lars Gardenius
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>  Von: Rui Correia <[hidden email]>
> An: Wikimedia Mailing List <[hidden email]>
> Gesendet: 23:08 Mittwoch, 4.September 2013
> Betreff: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself
>
>
> Greetings to All
>
> Let me start by saying that I don't do much here at the WP, not compared
> to
> people who make hundreds of edits a week. I would love to, have a long
> list
> of "to-do", but unfortunately time is not on my side.
>
> In my limited involvemet here, I have seen many a good editor leave the
> project. Mostly, people leave because they can't take it anymore having
> to
> fight the 'blocks' of defenders that coalesce around certain topics.
>
> In itself, though not very healthy, such blocks forming around topis is
> fine. What is not fine is that if any issue gets referred to a higher
> process for a resolution, it is often the same people grouping of people
> previously involved in disputes on the same topic who come to the
> resolution forum to issue a decision. However, it is always the
> 'outsider'
> that loses. He gets acused of everything under the sun, and gets 'good
> advice' from supposedly neutral editors, urging him to calm down, to
> temper
> his language etc. It is like trying to point out that the earth is round
> at
> a monthly meetng of the fat-earthers. That is not healthy and is making
> the
> WP processes look like a kangaroo court run by a cabal.
>
> And I expect pretty much the same reaction to this email.
>
> I pointed out in an ealier email to this list the difficulty that one
> encounters when you include something negative about certain big
> corporations. I was stoned and made to feel that I was wrong and everbody
> else was right. The reaction was tantamount to a chorus of "yes, we know
> there are problems, but don't say it out loud, someone might hear you!".
>
> Let's for argument's say that I was wrong. But - more importantantly -
> was
> anything done to investigate what I was saying? What if there are legions
> out there paid to sanitise the pages of big corporations? And we know
> that
> they exist, and that WP has taken up the issue as in here,
> http://nick-xomba-ceo.xomba.com/microsoft_accused_of_paying_blogger_to_alter_wikipedia_articles
>
> I made a silly remark on a Talk page about the choice of the word
> "downgrade" to refer to people using Windows 8 who wanted to go back to
> XP.
> For a failed product, by Microsoft's own admission, going back to XP is
> an
> upgrade, going back to sanity, not a downgrade.
>
> I was first accused of trolling, then something else, then of offending
> the
> entire community of users of Windows 8. The editor who is adamant - not
> the
> first time - to purge ant-MS from the talkpage violated the 3RR, but
> nothing gets done about it. I reported the 3RR, and it was immediately
> closed, labelled as being relatiatory. There is a backlog of issues on
> that
> page, but my entry was closed within minutes.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:Codename_Lisa_reported_by_User:Rui_Gabriel_Correia_.28Result:_Closed.29
>
> It was closed, claiming that it was already being addressed elsewhere.
>
> So, I too will consider my stay here. Like I said right at the top, I
> don't
> do much here, so I am certain I will not even be missed. I edit in eight
> languages, small little bits here and there. I participated in a number
> of
> initiaves on the development of Chapters in Africa and am happy to see
> that
> things are moving. I had the honour and privilege to meet Jimmy Wales in
> South Africa and to discuss a few things relating to WP in Africa.
>
> So, it is time to wind down anr retire into a corner. I am busy with a
> novel, I am sure that is where I should invest my time and energy.
>
> Sincere regards to all, happy editing
>
> Rui Correia
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> _________________________
> Rui Correia
> Advocacy, Human Rights, Media and Language Work Consultant
> Bridge to Angola - Angola Liaison Consultant
>
> Mobile Number in South Africa +27 74 425 4186
> Número de Telemóvel na África do Sul +27 74 425 4186
> _______________
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

Rui Correia-2
In reply to this post by Lars Gardenius
Thanks, Lars

Much appreciated.

Regards,

Rui


On 4 September 2013 23:35, Lars Gardenius <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I think you are completely right and it is a big problem in the Wiki-world
> that is not being addressed by anyone in a leading position.
>
> Regards,
> Lars Gardenius
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>  Von: Rui Correia <[hidden email]>
> An: Wikimedia Mailing List <[hidden email]>
> Gesendet: 23:08 Mittwoch, 4.September 2013
> Betreff: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself
>
>
> Greetings to All
>
> Let me start by saying that I don't do much here at the WP, not compared to
> people who make hundreds of edits a week. I would love to, have a long list
> of "to-do", but unfortunately time is not on my side.
>
> In my limited involvemet here, I have seen many a good editor leave the
> project. Mostly, people leave because they can't take it anymore having to
> fight the 'blocks' of defenders that coalesce around certain topics.
>
> In itself, though not very healthy, such blocks forming around topis is
> fine. What is not fine is that if any issue gets referred to a higher
> process for a resolution, it is often the same people grouping of people
> previously involved in disputes on the same topic who come to the
> resolution forum to issue a decision. However, it is always the 'outsider'
> that loses. He gets acused of everything under the sun, and gets 'good
> advice' from supposedly neutral editors, urging him to calm down, to temper
> his language etc. It is like trying to point out that the earth is round at
> a monthly meetng of the fat-earthers. That is not healthy and is making the
> WP processes look like a kangaroo court run by a cabal.
>
> And I expect pretty much the same reaction to this email.
>
> I pointed out in an ealier email to this list the difficulty that one
> encounters when you include something negative about certain big
> corporations. I was stoned and made to feel that I was wrong and everbody
> else was right. The reaction was tantamount to a chorus of "yes, we know
> there are problems, but don't say it out loud, someone might hear you!".
>
> Let's for argument's say that I was wrong. But - more importantantly - was
> anything done to investigate what I was saying? What if there are legions
> out there paid to sanitise the pages of big corporations? And we know that
> they exist, and that WP has taken up the issue as in here,
>
> http://nick-xomba-ceo.xomba.com/microsoft_accused_of_paying_blogger_to_alter_wikipedia_articles
>
> I made a silly remark on a Talk page about the choice of the word
> "downgrade" to refer to people using Windows 8 who wanted to go back to XP.
> For a failed product, by Microsoft's own admission, going back to XP is an
> upgrade, going back to sanity, not a downgrade.
>
> I was first accused of trolling, then something else, then of offending the
> entire community of users of Windows 8. The editor who is adamant - not the
> first time - to purge ant-MS from the talkpage violated the 3RR, but
> nothing gets done about it. I reported the 3RR, and it was immediately
> closed, labelled as being relatiatory. There is a backlog of issues on that
> page, but my entry was closed within minutes.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:Codename_Lisa_reported_by_User:Rui_Gabriel_Correia_.28Result:_Closed.29
>
> It was closed, claiming that it was already being addressed elsewhere.
>
> So, I too will consider my stay here. Like I said right at the top, I don't
> do much here, so I am certain I will not even be missed. I edit in eight
> languages, small little bits here and there. I participated in a number of
> initiaves on the development of Chapters in Africa and am happy to see that
> things are moving. I had the honour and privilege to meet Jimmy Wales in
> South Africa and to discuss a few things relating to WP in Africa.
>
> So, it is time to wind down anr retire into a corner. I am busy with a
> novel, I am sure that is where I should invest my time and energy.
>
> Sincere regards to all, happy editing
>
> Rui Correia
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> _________________________
> Rui Correia
> Advocacy, Human Rights, Media and Language Work Consultant
> Bridge to Angola - Angola Liaison Consultant
>
> Mobile Number in South Africa +27 74 425 4186
> Número de Telemóvel na África do Sul +27 74 425 4186
> _______________
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>




--
_________________________
Rui Correia
Advocacy, Human Rights, Media and Language Work Consultant
Bridge to Angola - Angola Liaison Consultant

Mobile Number in South Africa +27 74 425 4186
Número de Telemóvel na África do Sul +27 74 425 4186
_______________
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
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Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

Rui Correia-2
In reply to this post by Fred Bauder-2
Thanks, Fred

Much appreciated.

Regards,

Rui


On 5 September 2013 01:16, Fred Bauder <[hidden email]> wrote:

> It is addressed but by a rather complicated and demanding process. See
> Wikipedia:Dispute resolution. Not really workable for new users who bump
> up against well-established users who have bad habits, or have learned
> that nasty behavior pays off in being able to control content.
>
> Fred
>
> > I think you are completely right and it is a big problem in the
> > Wiki-world that is not being addressed by anyone in a leading position.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Lars Gardenius
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> >  Von: Rui Correia <[hidden email]>
> > An: Wikimedia Mailing List <[hidden email]>
> > Gesendet: 23:08 Mittwoch, 4.September 2013
> > Betreff: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself
> >
> >
> > Greetings to All
> >
> > Let me start by saying that I don't do much here at the WP, not compared
> > to
> > people who make hundreds of edits a week. I would love to, have a long
> > list
> > of "to-do", but unfortunately time is not on my side.
> >
> > In my limited involvemet here, I have seen many a good editor leave the
> > project. Mostly, people leave because they can't take it anymore having
> > to
> > fight the 'blocks' of defenders that coalesce around certain topics.
> >
> > In itself, though not very healthy, such blocks forming around topis is
> > fine. What is not fine is that if any issue gets referred to a higher
> > process for a resolution, it is often the same people grouping of people
> > previously involved in disputes on the same topic who come to the
> > resolution forum to issue a decision. However, it is always the
> > 'outsider'
> > that loses. He gets acused of everything under the sun, and gets 'good
> > advice' from supposedly neutral editors, urging him to calm down, to
> > temper
> > his language etc. It is like trying to point out that the earth is round
> > at
> > a monthly meetng of the fat-earthers. That is not healthy and is making
> > the
> > WP processes look like a kangaroo court run by a cabal.
> >
> > And I expect pretty much the same reaction to this email.
> >
> > I pointed out in an ealier email to this list the difficulty that one
> > encounters when you include something negative about certain big
> > corporations. I was stoned and made to feel that I was wrong and everbody
> > else was right. The reaction was tantamount to a chorus of "yes, we know
> > there are problems, but don't say it out loud, someone might hear you!".
> >
> > Let's for argument's say that I was wrong. But - more importantantly -
> > was
> > anything done to investigate what I was saying? What if there are legions
> > out there paid to sanitise the pages of big corporations? And we know
> > that
> > they exist, and that WP has taken up the issue as in here,
> >
> http://nick-xomba-ceo.xomba.com/microsoft_accused_of_paying_blogger_to_alter_wikipedia_articles
> >
> > I made a silly remark on a Talk page about the choice of the word
> > "downgrade" to refer to people using Windows 8 who wanted to go back to
> > XP.
> > For a failed product, by Microsoft's own admission, going back to XP is
> > an
> > upgrade, going back to sanity, not a downgrade.
> >
> > I was first accused of trolling, then something else, then of offending
> > the
> > entire community of users of Windows 8. The editor who is adamant - not
> > the
> > first time - to purge ant-MS from the talkpage violated the 3RR, but
> > nothing gets done about it. I reported the 3RR, and it was immediately
> > closed, labelled as being relatiatory. There is a backlog of issues on
> > that
> > page, but my entry was closed within minutes.
> >
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:Codename_Lisa_reported_by_User:Rui_Gabriel_Correia_.28Result:_Closed.29
> >
> > It was closed, claiming that it was already being addressed elsewhere.
> >
> > So, I too will consider my stay here. Like I said right at the top, I
> > don't
> > do much here, so I am certain I will not even be missed. I edit in eight
> > languages, small little bits here and there. I participated in a number
> > of
> > initiaves on the development of Chapters in Africa and am happy to see
> > that
> > things are moving. I had the honour and privilege to meet Jimmy Wales in
> > South Africa and to discuss a few things relating to WP in Africa.
> >
> > So, it is time to wind down anr retire into a corner. I am busy with a
> > novel, I am sure that is where I should invest my time and energy.
> >
> > Sincere regards to all, happy editing
> >
> > Rui Correia
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > _________________________
> > Rui Correia
> > Advocacy, Human Rights, Media and Language Work Consultant
> > Bridge to Angola - Angola Liaison Consultant
> >
> > Mobile Number in South Africa +27 74 425 4186
> > Número de Telemóvel na à frica do Sul +27 74 425 4186
> > _______________
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>



--
_________________________
Rui Correia
Advocacy, Human Rights, Media and Language Work Consultant
Bridge to Angola - Angola Liaison Consultant

Mobile Number in South Africa +27 74 425 4186
Número de Telemóvel na África do Sul +27 74 425 4186
_______________
_______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

Josh Lim
In reply to this post by Rui Correia-2
I think what we need to consider here is where the loyalties of many of these so-called "problematic" editors reside, whether their dedication to maintaining the content where their expertise has been valuable has been harmful to the overall health of the community.  While I think we are all on the side of Wikipedia here and we all have a genuine interest in improving the encyclopedia for everyone, we have gone to the point where we have started to perpetuate the idea that some are better at it than others, similar to that declaration in Animal Farmthat "all animals are equal, but some are more equal than others".

There are many reasons as to why this is the case, but I guess we need to reiterate the need for us to break down barriers here, both between ourselves as editors (step away from compartmentalizing ourselves into spaces where everyone else will agree with us because we are familiar with them), and between ourselves as people.  The latter, however, is very difficult to do, and it is one of the challenges that we have to face if we will want to assure Wikipedia's future success.

Regards,

Josh

 
JAMES JOSHUA G. LIM
Block I1, AB Political Science
Major in Global Politics, Minor in Chinese Studies
Class of 2013, Ateneo de Manila University
Quezon City, Metro Manila, Philippines

Trustee (2010-2013), Wikimedia Philippines
Member, Ateneo Debate Society
Member, The Assembly

[hidden email] | +63 (927) 531-8301
Friendster/Facebook/Twitter: akiestar | Wikimedia: Sky Harbor
http://akira123323.livejournal.com



________________________________
 From: Rui Correia <[hidden email]>
To: Wikimedia Mailing List <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, September 5, 2013 5:08 AM
Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself
 

Greetings to All

Let me start by saying that I don't do much here at the WP, not compared to
people who make hundreds of edits a week. I would love to, have a long list
of "to-do", but unfortunately time is not on my side.

In my limited involvemet here, I have seen many a good editor leave the
project. Mostly, people leave because they can't take it anymore having to
fight the 'blocks' of defenders that coalesce around certain topics.

In itself, though not very healthy, such blocks forming around topis is
fine. What is not fine is that if any issue gets referred to a higher
process for a resolution, it is often the same people grouping of people
previously involved in disputes on the same topic who come to the
resolution forum to issue a decision. However, it is always the 'outsider'
that loses. He gets acused of everything under the sun, and gets 'good
advice' from supposedly neutral editors, urging him to calm down, to temper
his language etc. It is like trying to point out that the earth is round at
a monthly meetng of the fat-earthers. That is not healthy and is making the
WP processes look like a kangaroo court run by a cabal.

And I expect pretty much the same reaction to this email.

I pointed out in an ealier email to this list the difficulty that one
encounters when you include something negative about certain big
corporations. I was stoned and made to feel that I was wrong and everbody
else was right. The reaction was tantamount to a chorus of "yes, we know
there are problems, but don't say it out loud, someone might hear you!".

Let's for argument's say that I was wrong. But - more importantantly - was
anything done to investigate what I was saying? What if there are legions
out there paid to sanitise the pages of big corporations? And we know that
they exist, and that WP has taken up the issue as in here,
http://nick-xomba-ceo.xomba.com/microsoft_accused_of_paying_blogger_to_alter_wikipedia_articles

I made a silly remark on a Talk page about the choice of the word
"downgrade" to refer to people using Windows 8 who wanted to go back to XP.
For a failed product, by Microsoft's own admission, going back to XP is an
upgrade, going back to sanity, not a downgrade.

I was first accused of trolling, then something else, then of offending the
entire community of users of Windows 8. The editor who is adamant - not the
first time - to purge ant-MS from the talkpage violated the 3RR, but
nothing gets done about it. I reported the 3RR, and it was immediately
closed, labelled as being relatiatory. There is a backlog of issues on that
page, but my entry was closed within minutes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:Codename_Lisa_reported_by_User:Rui_Gabriel_Correia_.28Result:_Closed.29

It was closed, claiming that it was already being addressed elsewhere.

So, I too will consider my stay here. Like I said right at the top, I don't
do much here, so I am certain I will not even be missed. I edit in eight
languages, small little bits here and there. I participated in a number of
initiaves on the development of Chapters in Africa and am happy to see that
things are moving. I had the honour and privilege to meet Jimmy Wales in
South Africa and to discuss a few things relating to WP in Africa.

So, it is time to wind down anr retire into a corner. I am busy with a
novel, I am sure that is where I should invest my time and energy.

Sincere regards to all, happy editing

Rui Correia






--
_________________________
Rui Correia
Advocacy, Human Rights, Media and Language Work Consultant
Bridge to Angola - Angola Liaison Consultant

Mobile Number in South Africa +27 74 425 4186
Número de Telemóvel na África do Sul +27 74 425 4186
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

Lars Gardenius
In reply to this post by Fred Bauder-2
No I don't think it is being addressed. Not in a serious way.

That "Wikipedia:Dispute resolution" mirrors a very naive approach in a worldwide organization. It has never worked before and it doesn't work now.

To imagine that groups of people will not try and manoeuvre out persons that they don't like is very naive.
That has not happened before in the history of mankind and the Wikis are no exception.

Today noone is accountable for what they do to other Wiki-contributors, they are not even identifiable since they hide behind nome de guerres. Stewards have no authority to protect users from abuses and the same goes for the Ombudsman. (see also Rui Correia's email)

So if the Wikis want to be a safe place for children and old folks alike, and that everybody shall be able to contribute on equal conditions, a more realistic organization to protect the users must be put in place.


Regards
Lars Gardenius


________________________________
 Von: Fred Bauder <[hidden email]>
An: Wikimedia Mailing List <[hidden email]>
Gesendet: 1:16 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013
Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself
 

It is addressed but by a rather complicated and demanding process. See
Wikipedia:Dispute resolution. Not really workable for new users who bump
up against well-established users who have bad habits, or have learned
that nasty behavior pays off in being able to control content.

Fred

> I think you are completely right and it is a big problem in the
> Wiki-world that is not being addressed by anyone in a leading position.
>
> Regards,
> Lars Gardenius
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>  Von: Rui Correia <[hidden email]>
> An: Wikimedia Mailing List <[hidden email]>
> Gesendet: 23:08 Mittwoch, 4.September 2013
> Betreff: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself
>
>
> Greetings to All
>
> Let me start by saying that I don't do much here at the WP, not compared
> to
> people who make hundreds of edits a week. I would love to, have a long
> list
> of "to-do", but unfortunately time is not on my side.
>
> In my limited involvemet here, I have seen many a good editor leave the
> project. Mostly, people leave because they can't take it anymore having
> to
> fight the 'blocks' of defenders that coalesce around certain topics.
>
> In itself, though not very healthy, such blocks forming around topis is
> fine. What is not fine is that if any issue gets referred to a higher
> process for a resolution, it is often the same people grouping of people
> previously involved in disputes on the same topic who come to the
> resolution forum to issue a decision. However, it is always the
> 'outsider'
> that loses. He gets acused of everything under the sun, and gets 'good
> advice' from supposedly neutral editors, urging him to calm down, to
> temper
> his language etc. It is like trying to point out that the earth is round
> at
> a monthly meetng of the fat-earthers. That is not healthy and is making
> the
> WP processes look like a kangaroo court run by a cabal.
>
> And I expect pretty much the same reaction to this email.
>
> I pointed out in an ealier email to this list the difficulty that one
> encounters when you include something negative about certain big
> corporations. I was stoned and made to feel that I was wrong and everbody
> else was right. The reaction was tantamount to a chorus of "yes, we know
> there are problems, but don't say it out loud, someone might hear you!".
>
> Let's for argument's say that I was wrong. But - more importantantly -
> was
> anything done to investigate what I was saying? What if there are legions
> out there paid to sanitise the pages of big corporations? And we know
> that
> they exist, and that WP has taken up the issue as in here,
> http://nick-xomba-ceo.xomba.com/microsoft_accused_of_paying_blogger_to_alter_wikipedia_articles
>
> I made a silly remark on a Talk page about the choice of the word
> "downgrade" to refer to people using Windows 8 who wanted to go back to
> XP.
> For a failed product, by Microsoft's own admission, going back to XP is
> an
> upgrade, going back to sanity, not a downgrade.
>
> I was first accused of trolling, then something else, then of offending
> the
> entire community of users of Windows 8. The editor who is adamant - not
> the
> first time - to purge ant-MS from the talkpage violated the 3RR, but
> nothing gets done about it. I reported the 3RR, and it was immediately
> closed, labelled as being relatiatory. There is a backlog of issues on
> that
> page, but my entry was closed within minutes.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:Codename_Lisa_reported_by_User:Rui_Gabriel_Correia_.28Result:_Closed.29
>
> It was closed, claiming that it was already being addressed elsewhere.
>
> So, I too will consider my stay here. Like I said right at the top, I
> don't
> do much here, so I am certain I will not even be missed. I edit in eight
> languages, small little bits here and there. I participated in a number
> of
> initiaves on the development of Chapters in Africa and am happy to see
> that
> things are moving. I had the honour and privilege to meet Jimmy Wales in
> South Africa and to discuss a few things relating to WP in Africa.
>
> So, it is time to wind down anr retire into a corner. I am busy with a
> novel, I am sure that is where I should invest my time and energy.
>
> Sincere regards to all, happy editing
>
> Rui Correia
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> _________________________
> Rui Correia
> Advocacy, Human Rights, Media and Language Work Consultant
> Bridge to Angola - Angola Liaison Consultant
>
> Mobile Number in South Africa +27 74 425 4186
> Número de Telemóvel na Ãfrica do Sul +27 74 425 4186
> _______________
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

Peter Southwood
In reply to this post by Josh Lim
Some _are_ better at it than others. Also some are better at editing then
dealing with other people, and some are just unable to deal with other
people in an environment where to a large extent, one is not held
accountable for one's actions. This is the downside of anonymity. en:WP is
in general not a very friendly environment. I am not saying that the
majority of editors are unfriendly, but there is enough of an impact from
the antisocial side to make the average experience unclude some significant
unpleasantness. Not everyone is prepared to tolerate that when doing unpaid
work. When the unnecessary unpleasantness is dealt out by adminitrators,
people leave. When enough people leave, the progect stagnates and eventually
collapses. Fortunately it is likely that the pieces will be picked up by
another project, so the work will not be lost.
Cheers,
Peter Southwood

----- Original Message -----
From: "Josh Lim" <[hidden email]>
To: "Wikimedia Mailing List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2013 6:01 AM
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself


>I think what we need to consider here is where the loyalties of many of
>these so-called "problematic" editors reside, whether their dedication to
>maintaining the content where their expertise has been valuable has been
>harmful to the overall health of the community. While I think we are all on
>the side of Wikipedia here and we all have a genuine interest in improving
>the encyclopedia for everyone, we have gone to the point where we have
>started to perpetuate the idea that some are better at it than others,
>similar to that declaration in Animal Farmthat "all animals are equal, but
>some are more equal than others".
>
> There are many reasons as to why this is the case, but I guess we need to
> reiterate the need for us to break down barriers here, both between
> ourselves as editors (step away from compartmentalizing ourselves into
> spaces where everyone else will agree with us because we are familiar with
> them), and between ourselves as people. The latter, however, is very
> difficult to do, and it is one of the challenges that we have to face if
> we will want to assure Wikipedia's future success.
>
> Regards,
>
> Josh
>
>
> JAMES JOSHUA G. LIM
> Block I1, AB Political Science
> Major in Global Politics, Minor in Chinese Studies
> Class of 2013, Ateneo de Manila University
> Quezon City, Metro Manila, Philippines
>
> Trustee (2010-2013), Wikimedia Philippines
> Member, Ateneo Debate Society
> Member, The Assembly
>
> [hidden email] | +63 (927) 531-8301
> Friendster/Facebook/Twitter: akiestar | Wikimedia: Sky Harbor
> http://akira123323.livejournal.com
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Rui Correia <[hidden email]>
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Thursday, September 5, 2013 5:08 AM
> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself
>
>
> Greetings to All
>
> Let me start by saying that I don't do much here at the WP, not compared
> to
> people who make hundreds of edits a week. I would love to, have a long
> list
> of "to-do", but unfortunately time is not on my side.
>
> In my limited involvemet here, I have seen many a good editor leave the
> project. Mostly, people leave because they can't take it anymore having to
> fight the 'blocks' of defenders that coalesce around certain topics.
>
> In itself, though not very healthy, such blocks forming around topis is
> fine. What is not fine is that if any issue gets referred to a higher
> process for a resolution, it is often the same people grouping of people
> previously involved in disputes on the same topic who come to the
> resolution forum to issue a decision. However, it is always the 'outsider'
> that loses. He gets acused of everything under the sun, and gets 'good
> advice' from supposedly neutral editors, urging him to calm down, to
> temper
> his language etc. It is like trying to point out that the earth is round
> at
> a monthly meetng of the fat-earthers. That is not healthy and is making
> the
> WP processes look like a kangaroo court run by a cabal.
>
> And I expect pretty much the same reaction to this email.
>
> I pointed out in an ealier email to this list the difficulty that one
> encounters when you include something negative about certain big
> corporations. I was stoned and made to feel that I was wrong and everbody
> else was right. The reaction was tantamount to a chorus of "yes, we know
> there are problems, but don't say it out loud, someone might hear you!".
>
> Let's for argument's say that I was wrong. But - more importantantly - was
> anything done to investigate what I was saying? What if there are legions
> out there paid to sanitise the pages of big corporations? And we know that
> they exist, and that WP has taken up the issue as in here,
> http://nick-xomba-ceo.xomba.com/microsoft_accused_of_paying_blogger_to_alter_wikipedia_articles
>
> I made a silly remark on a Talk page about the choice of the word
> "downgrade" to refer to people using Windows 8 who wanted to go back to
> XP.
> For a failed product, by Microsoft's own admission, going back to XP is an
> upgrade, going back to sanity, not a downgrade.
>
> I was first accused of trolling, then something else, then of offending
> the
> entire community of users of Windows 8. The editor who is adamant - not
> the
> first time - to purge ant-MS from the talkpage violated the 3RR, but
> nothing gets done about it. I reported the 3RR, and it was immediately
> closed, labelled as being relatiatory. There is a backlog of issues on
> that
> page, but my entry was closed within minutes.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:Codename_Lisa_reported_by_User:Rui_Gabriel_Correia_.28Result:_Closed.29
>
> It was closed, claiming that it was already being addressed elsewhere.
>
> So, I too will consider my stay here. Like I said right at the top, I
> don't
> do much here, so I am certain I will not even be missed. I edit in eight
> languages, small little bits here and there. I participated in a number of
> initiaves on the development of Chapters in Africa and am happy to see
> that
> things are moving. I had the honour and privilege to meet Jimmy Wales in
> South Africa and to discuss a few things relating to WP in Africa.
>
> So, it is time to wind down anr retire into a corner. I am busy with a
> novel, I am sure that is where I should invest my time and energy.
>
> Sincere regards to all, happy editing
>
> Rui Correia
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> _________________________
> Rui Correia
> Advocacy, Human Rights, Media and Language Work Consultant
> Bridge to Angola - Angola Liaison Consultant
>
> Mobile Number in South Africa +27 74 425 4186
> Número de Telemóvel na África do Sul +27 74 425 4186
> _______________
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

Lars Gardenius
In reply to this post by Josh Lim
I don't think it is possible, in a worldwide organization like the Wikis, to be reliant on "where the loyalties of many of these so-called "problematic" editors reside". I think that the Wiki-organization in itself must be responsible that the Wiki-users are not abused or harassed, just because they do not belong to the same "group" as these  "problematic" editors" do.

I think that the contemporary organization (or lack of organization) reflects a very naive view of how people interact in a society. It is like believing that you don't need a police organization in an ordinary society because people can handle all conflicts among themselves. That is very naive and has often led to the creation of criminal organizations like the Mafia and worse.

Also the Wiki-world needs to protect its "inhabitants" from abuse and mobbing, and therefore needs an organization that can fulfil these duties.

Regards,
Lars Gardenius




________________________________
 Von: Josh Lim <[hidden email]>
An: Wikimedia Mailing List <[hidden email]>
Gesendet: 6:01 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013
Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself
 

I think what we need to consider here is where the loyalties of many of these so-called "problematic" editors reside, whether their dedication to maintaining the content where their expertise has been valuable has been harmful to the overall health of the community.  While I think we are all on the side of Wikipedia here and we all have a genuine interest in improving the encyclopedia for everyone, we have gone to the point where we have started to perpetuate the idea that some are better at it than others, similar to that declaration in Animal Farmthat "all animals are equal, but some are more equal than others".

There are many reasons as to why this is the case, but I guess we need to reiterate the need for us to break down barriers here, both between ourselves as editors (step away from compartmentalizing ourselves into spaces where everyone else will agree with us because we are familiar with them), and between ourselves as people.  The latter, however, is very difficult to do, and it is one of the challenges that we have to face if we will want to assure Wikipedia's future success.

Regards,

Josh

 
JAMES JOSHUA G. LIM
Block I1, AB Political Science
Major in Global Politics, Minor in Chinese Studies
Class of 2013, Ateneo de Manila University
Quezon City, Metro Manila, Philippines

Trustee (2010-2013), Wikimedia Philippines
Member, Ateneo Debate Society
Member, The Assembly

[hidden email] | +63 (927) 531-8301
Friendster/Facebook/Twitter: akiestar | Wikimedia: Sky Harbor
http://akira123323.livejournal.com



________________________________
From: Rui Correia <[hidden email]>
To: Wikimedia Mailing List <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, September 5, 2013 5:08 AM
Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself


Greetings to All

Let me start by saying that I don't do much here at the WP, not compared to
people who make hundreds of edits a week. I would love to, have a long list
of "to-do", but unfortunately time is not on my side.

In my limited involvemet here, I have seen many a good editor leave the
project. Mostly, people leave because they can't take it anymore having to
fight the 'blocks' of defenders that coalesce around certain topics.

In itself, though not very healthy, such blocks forming around topis is
fine. What is not fine is that if any issue gets referred to a higher
process for a resolution, it is often the same people grouping of people
previously involved in disputes on the same topic who come to the
resolution forum to issue a decision. However, it is always the 'outsider'
that loses. He gets acused of everything under the sun, and gets 'good
advice' from supposedly neutral editors, urging him to calm down, to temper
his language etc. It is like trying to point out that the earth is round at
a monthly meetng of the fat-earthers. That is not healthy and is making the
WP processes look like a kangaroo court run by a cabal.

And I expect pretty much the same reaction to this email.

I pointed out in an ealier email to this list the difficulty that one
encounters when you include something negative about certain big
corporations. I was stoned and made to feel that I was wrong and everbody
else was right. The reaction was tantamount to a chorus of "yes, we know
there are problems, but don't say it out loud, someone might hear you!".

Let's for argument's say that I was wrong. But - more importantantly - was
anything done to investigate what I was saying? What if there are legions
out there paid to sanitise the pages of big corporations? And we know that
they exist, and that WP has taken up the issue as in here,
http://nick-xomba-ceo.xomba.com/microsoft_accused_of_paying_blogger_to_alter_wikipedia_articles

I made a silly remark on a Talk page about the choice of the word
"downgrade" to refer to people using Windows 8 who wanted to go back to XP.
For a failed product, by Microsoft's own admission, going back to XP is an
upgrade, going back to sanity, not a downgrade.

I was first accused of trolling, then something else, then of offending the
entire community of users of Windows 8. The editor who is adamant - not the
first time - to purge ant-MS from the talkpage violated the 3RR, but
nothing gets done about it. I reported the 3RR, and it was immediately
closed, labelled as being relatiatory. There is a backlog of issues on that
page, but my entry was closed within minutes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:Codename_Lisa_reported_by_User:Rui_Gabriel_Correia_.28Result:_Closed.29

It was closed, claiming that it was already being addressed elsewhere.

So, I too will consider my stay here. Like I said right at the top, I don't
do much here, so I am certain I will not even be missed. I edit in eight
languages, small little bits here and there. I participated in a number of
initiaves on the development of Chapters in Africa and am happy to see that
things are moving. I had the honour and privilege to meet Jimmy Wales in
South Africa and to discuss a few things relating to WP in Africa.

So, it is time to wind down anr retire into a corner. I am busy with a
novel, I am sure that is where I should invest my time and energy.

Sincere regards to all, happy editing

Rui Correia






--
_________________________
Rui Correia
Advocacy, Human Rights, Media and Language Work Consultant
Bridge to Angola - Angola Liaison Consultant

Mobile Number in South Africa +27 74 425 4186
Número de Telemóvel na África do Sul +27 74 425 4186
_______________
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

Peter Gervai-5
In reply to this post by Lars Gardenius
On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 10:18 AM, Lars Gardenius <[hidden email]> wrote:
> No I don't think it is being addressed. Not in a serious way.

You mean it's not _solved_. Indeed.

At least one problem was mentioned in the thread which is that the
(honest, knowledgeable) newbies have unproportionally smaller
debating/lobbying power than aboriginals, and they are very easy to
oppress. This is an ongoing problem for the last decade or so and no
good solution seem to exist.

In theory there are (or could be) volunteers who could be called in
cases of newbie oppression from the experienced troll^H^H^H^Heditors
who would declare that they try to act as neutral as possible but they
would possess more experience to handle obnoxious editors and other
regual beings. Arbitration, mentoring, whatever we like to call it.
Obviously it only worked if there's a free way to reject a request (if
the volunteer believes the newbie has no merits, let's not call them
outright trolls and vandals) and if it isn't an "official" cabal but a
large catalog of helpful and experienced editors.

I have often done it (and still occasionally do on Commons since it's
a pretty harsh environment for newbies) and it's doable if there's
enough volunteers and people don't try to do it too often, I mean, one
in a week or month or so.

The point is to have a group of random people who are not involved in
the debate but could help to communicate with the members of the
community. (Since they're uninvolved it's probably useless to call
them biased, which is the easiest unargument I've seen in such
debates.)

g

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

Lars Gardenius
It is very laudable if you, Peter, tries and help newbies and others that are harassed by other users.

I however don't think it is enough in a worldwide organization that you have to rely on volunteers and that these will intervene.

As I see it, if you start such an organization you must also take on the responsibilities that follows.
You can't just duck and pretend that you can hand over all problems to the users.

I still think that an international organization like the Wikis demands an instance to which mistreated and mobbed users can turn. An instance with the responsibility that normal rules in a society are upheld and with the authority to uphold them.

Regards,
Lars Gardenius




________________________________
 Von: Peter Gervai <[hidden email]>
An: Wikimedia Mailing List <[hidden email]>
Gesendet: 10:50 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013
Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself
 

On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 10:18 AM, Lars Gardenius <[hidden email]> wrote:
> No I don't think it is being addressed. Not in a serious way.

You mean it's not _solved_. Indeed.

At least one problem was mentioned in the thread which is that the
(honest, knowledgeable) newbies have unproportionally smaller
debating/lobbying power than aboriginals, and they are very easy to
oppress. This is an ongoing problem for the last decade or so and no
good solution seem to exist.

In theory there are (or could be) volunteers who could be called in
cases of newbie oppression from the experienced troll^H^H^H^Heditors
who would declare that they try to act as neutral as possible but they
would possess more experience to handle obnoxious editors and other
regual beings. Arbitration, mentoring, whatever we like to call it.
Obviously it only worked if there's a free way to reject a request (if
the volunteer believes the newbie has no merits, let's not call them
outright trolls and vandals) and if it isn't an "official" cabal but a
large catalog of helpful and experienced editors.

I have often done it (and still occasionally do on Commons since it's
a pretty harsh environment for newbies) and it's doable if there's
enough volunteers and people don't try to do it too often, I mean, one
in a week or month or so.

The point is to have a group of random people who are not involved in
the debate but could help to communicate with the members of the
community. (Since they're uninvolved it's probably useless to call
them biased, which is the easiest unargument I've seen in such
debates.)

g

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

Fred Bauder-2
In reply to this post by Peter Southwood
Unable to deal with serious online conflict appears to involve the bulk
of humanity and includes massive demographics we want, and need, to
include.

Fred

> Some _are_ better at it than others. Also some are better at editing then
> dealing with other people, and some are just unable to deal with other
> people in an environment where to a large extent, one is not held
> accountable for one's actions. This is the downside of anonymity. en:WP
> is
> in general not a very friendly environment. I am not saying that the
> majority of editors are unfriendly, but there is enough of an impact from
> the antisocial side to make the average experience unclude some
> significant
> unpleasantness. Not everyone is prepared to tolerate that when doing
> unpaid
> work. When the unnecessary unpleasantness is dealt out by adminitrators,
> people leave. When enough people leave, the progect stagnates and
> eventually
> collapses. Fortunately it is likely that the pieces will be picked up by
> another project, so the work will not be lost.
> Cheers,
> Peter Southwood
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Josh Lim" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Wikimedia Mailing List" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2013 6:01 AM
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself
>
>
>>I think what we need to consider here is where the loyalties of many of
>>these so-called "problematic" editors reside, whether their dedication
>> to
>>maintaining the content where their expertise has been valuable has been
>>harmful to the overall health of the community. While I think we are all
>> on
>>the side of Wikipedia here and we all have a genuine interest in
>> improving
>>the encyclopedia for everyone, we have gone to the point where we have
>>started to perpetuate the idea that some are better at it than others,
>>similar to that declaration in Animal Farmthat "all animals are equal,
>> but
>>some are more equal than others".
>>
>> There are many reasons as to why this is the case, but I guess we need
>> to
>> reiterate the need for us to break down barriers here, both between
>> ourselves as editors (step away from compartmentalizing ourselves into
>> spaces where everyone else will agree with us because we are familiar
>> with
>> them), and between ourselves as people. The latter, however, is very
>> difficult to do, and it is one of the challenges that we have to face
>> if
>> we will want to assure Wikipedia's future success.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Josh
>>
>>
>> JAMES JOSHUA G. LIM
>> Block I1, AB Political Science
>> Major in Global Politics, Minor in Chinese Studies
>> Class of 2013, Ateneo de Manila University
>> Quezon City, Metro Manila, Philippines
>>
>> Trustee (2010-2013), Wikimedia Philippines
>> Member, Ateneo Debate Society
>> Member, The Assembly
>>
>> [hidden email] | +63 (927) 531-8301
>> Friendster/Facebook/Twitter: akiestar | Wikimedia: Sky Harbor
>> http://akira123323.livejournal.com
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Rui Correia <[hidden email]>
>> To: Wikimedia Mailing List <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: Thursday, September 5, 2013 5:08 AM
>> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself
>>
>>
>> Greetings to All
>>
>> Let me start by saying that I don't do much here at the WP, not
>> compared
>> to
>> people who make hundreds of edits a week. I would love to, have a long
>> list
>> of "to-do", but unfortunately time is not on my side.
>>
>> In my limited involvemet here, I have seen many a good editor leave the
>> project. Mostly, people leave because they can't take it anymore having
>> to
>> fight the 'blocks' of defenders that coalesce around certain topics.
>>
>> In itself, though not very healthy, such blocks forming around topis is
>> fine. What is not fine is that if any issue gets referred to a higher
>> process for a resolution, it is often the same people grouping of
>> people
>> previously involved in disputes on the same topic who come to the
>> resolution forum to issue a decision. However, it is always the
>> 'outsider'
>> that loses. He gets acused of everything under the sun, and gets 'good
>> advice' from supposedly neutral editors, urging him to calm down, to
>> temper
>> his language etc. It is like trying to point out that the earth is
>> round
>> at
>> a monthly meetng of the fat-earthers. That is not healthy and is making
>> the
>> WP processes look like a kangaroo court run by a cabal.
>>
>> And I expect pretty much the same reaction to this email.
>>
>> I pointed out in an ealier email to this list the difficulty that one
>> encounters when you include something negative about certain big
>> corporations. I was stoned and made to feel that I was wrong and
>> everbody
>> else was right. The reaction was tantamount to a chorus of "yes, we
>> know
>> there are problems, but don't say it out loud, someone might hear
>> you!".
>>
>> Let's for argument's say that I was wrong. But - more importantantly -
>> was
>> anything done to investigate what I was saying? What if there are
>> legions
>> out there paid to sanitise the pages of big corporations? And we know
>> that
>> they exist, and that WP has taken up the issue as in here,
>> http://nick-xomba-ceo.xomba.com/microsoft_accused_of_paying_blogger_to_alter_wikipedia_articles
>>
>> I made a silly remark on a Talk page about the choice of the word
>> "downgrade" to refer to people using Windows 8 who wanted to go back to
>> XP.
>> For a failed product, by Microsoft's own admission, going back to XP is
>> an
>> upgrade, going back to sanity, not a downgrade.
>>
>> I was first accused of trolling, then something else, then of offending
>> the
>> entire community of users of Windows 8. The editor who is adamant - not
>> the
>> first time - to purge ant-MS from the talkpage violated the 3RR, but
>> nothing gets done about it. I reported the 3RR, and it was immediately
>> closed, labelled as being relatiatory. There is a backlog of issues on
>> that
>> page, but my entry was closed within minutes.
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:Codename_Lisa_reported_by_User:Rui_Gabriel_Correia_.28Result:_Closed.29
>>
>> It was closed, claiming that it was already being addressed elsewhere.
>>
>> So, I too will consider my stay here. Like I said right at the top, I
>> don't
>> do much here, so I am certain I will not even be missed. I edit in
>> eight
>> languages, small little bits here and there. I participated in a number
>> of
>> initiaves on the development of Chapters in Africa and am happy to see
>> that
>> things are moving. I had the honour and privilege to meet Jimmy Wales
>> in
>> South Africa and to discuss a few things relating to WP in Africa.
>>
>> So, it is time to wind down anr retire into a corner. I am busy with a
>> novel, I am sure that is where I should invest my time and energy.
>>
>> Sincere regards to all, happy editing
>>
>> Rui Correia
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> _________________________
>> Rui Correia
>> Advocacy, Human Rights, Media and Language Work Consultant
>> Bridge to Angola - Angola Liaison Consultant
>>
>> Mobile Number in South Africa +27 74 425 4186
>> Número de Telemóvel na África do Sul +27 74 425 4186
>> _______________
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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>> [hidden email]
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>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

Fred Bauder-2
In reply to this post by Lars Gardenius
That was the purpose of the original arbitration committee. Finding a
mentor is kind of hard nowdays as there are so many users who might help
but probably will not. On the other hand, many requests I have received
and looked into are from people who are making trouble themselves;
sometimes very serious trouble. Giving a second chance to someone who has
been banned by the community after extended discussion seldom works out
well. But that's not a newbie who has run into serious trouble just for
making jokes about Windoze...

Fred

> It is very laudable if you, Peter, tries and help newbies and others that
> are harassed by other users.
>
> I however don't think it is enough in a worldwide organization that you
> have to rely on volunteers and that these will intervene.
>
> As I see it, if you start such an organization you must also take on the
> responsibilities that follows.
> You can't just duck and pretend that you can hand over all problems to
> the users.
>
> I still think that an international organization like the Wikis demands
> an instance to which mistreated and mobbed users can turn. An instance
> with the responsibility that normal rules in a society are upheld and
> with the authority to uphold them.
>
> Regards,
> Lars Gardenius
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>  Von: Peter Gervai <[hidden email]>
> An: Wikimedia Mailing List <[hidden email]>
> Gesendet: 10:50 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013
> Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 10:18 AM, Lars Gardenius <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>> No I don't think it is being addressed. Not in a serious way.
>
> You mean it's not _solved_. Indeed.
>
> At least one problem was mentioned in the thread which is that the
> (honest, knowledgeable) newbies have unproportionally smaller
> debating/lobbying power than aboriginals, and they are very easy to
> oppress. This is an ongoing problem for the last decade or so and no
> good solution seem to exist.
>
> In theory there are (or could be) volunteers who could be called in
> cases of newbie oppression from the experienced troll^H^H^H^Heditors
> who would declare that they try to act as neutral as possible but they
> would possess more experience to handle obnoxious editors and other
> regual beings. Arbitration, mentoring, whatever we like to call it.
> Obviously it only worked if there's a free way to reject a request (if
> the volunteer believes the newbie has no merits, let's not call them
> outright trolls and vandals) and if it isn't an "official" cabal but a
> large catalog of helpful and experienced editors.
>
> I have often done it (and still occasionally do on Commons since it's
> a pretty harsh environment for newbies) and it's doable if there's
> enough volunteers and people don't try to do it too often, I mean, one
> in a week or month or so.
>
> The point is to have a group of random people who are not involved in
> the debate but could help to communicate with the members of the
> community. (Since they're uninvolved it's probably useless to call
> them biased, which is the easiest unargument I've seen in such
> debates.)
>
> g
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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> [hidden email]
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

Anders Wennersten-2
Should not this discussion be held on he maillist for English wikipedia?

There is not much, if any,  of what is being discussed that I can
recognize from my home wp

Anders



Fred Bauder skrev 2013-09-05 13:18:

> That was the purpose of the original arbitration committee. Finding a
> mentor is kind of hard nowdays as there are so many users who might help
> but probably will not. On the other hand, many requests I have received
> and looked into are from people who are making trouble themselves;
> sometimes very serious trouble. Giving a second chance to someone who has
> been banned by the community after extended discussion seldom works out
> well. But that's not a newbie who has run into serious trouble just for
> making jokes about Windoze...
>
> Fred
>
>> It is very laudable if you, Peter, tries and help newbies and others that
>> are harassed by other users.
>>
>> I however don't think it is enough in a worldwide organization that you
>> have to rely on volunteers and that these will intervene.
>>
>> As I see it, if you start such an organization you must also take on the
>> responsibilities that follows.
>> You can't just duck and pretend that you can hand over all problems to
>> the users.
>>
>> I still think that an international organization like the Wikis demands
>> an instance to which mistreated and mobbed users can turn. An instance
>> with the responsibility that normal rules in a society are upheld and
>> with the authority to uphold them.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Lars Gardenius
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>>   Von: Peter Gervai <[hidden email]>
>> An: Wikimedia Mailing List <[hidden email]>
>> Gesendet: 10:50 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013
>> Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 10:18 AM, Lars Gardenius <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>> No I don't think it is being addressed. Not in a serious way.
>> You mean it's not _solved_. Indeed.
>>
>> At least one problem was mentioned in the thread which is that the
>> (honest, knowledgeable) newbies have unproportionally smaller
>> debating/lobbying power than aboriginals, and they are very easy to
>> oppress. This is an ongoing problem for the last decade or so and no
>> good solution seem to exist.
>>
>> In theory there are (or could be) volunteers who could be called in
>> cases of newbie oppression from the experienced troll^H^H^H^Heditors
>> who would declare that they try to act as neutral as possible but they
>> would possess more experience to handle obnoxious editors and other
>> regual beings. Arbitration, mentoring, whatever we like to call it.
>> Obviously it only worked if there's a free way to reject a request (if
>> the volunteer believes the newbie has no merits, let's not call them
>> outright trolls and vandals) and if it isn't an "official" cabal but a
>> large catalog of helpful and experienced editors.
>>
>> I have often done it (and still occasionally do on Commons since it's
>> a pretty harsh environment for newbies) and it's doable if there's
>> enough volunteers and people don't try to do it too often, I mean, one
>> in a week or month or so.
>>
>> The point is to have a group of random people who are not involved in
>> the debate but could help to communicate with the members of the
>> community. (Since they're uninvolved it's probably useless to call
>> them biased, which is the easiest unargument I've seen in such
>> debates.)
>>
>> g
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

Fred Bauder-2
At [hidden email] ? Perhaps, but hard to start over from
the beginning.

Fred

> Should not this discussion be held on he maillist for English wikipedia?
>
> There is not much, if any,  of what is being discussed that I can
> recognize from my home wp
>
> Anders
>
>
>
> Fred Bauder skrev 2013-09-05 13:18:
>> That was the purpose of the original arbitration committee. Finding a
>> mentor is kind of hard nowdays as there are so many users who might
>> help
>> but probably will not. On the other hand, many requests I have received
>> and looked into are from people who are making trouble themselves;
>> sometimes very serious trouble. Giving a second chance to someone who
>> has
>> been banned by the community after extended discussion seldom works out
>> well. But that's not a newbie who has run into serious trouble just for
>> making jokes about Windoze...
>>
>> Fred
>>
>>> It is very laudable if you, Peter, tries and help newbies and others
>>> that
>>> are harassed by other users.
>>>
>>> I however don't think it is enough in a worldwide organization that
>>> you
>>> have to rely on volunteers and that these will intervene.
>>>
>>> As I see it, if you start such an organization you must also take on
>>> the
>>> responsibilities that follows.
>>> You can't just duck and pretend that you can hand over all problems to
>>> the users.
>>>
>>> I still think that an international organization like the Wikis
>>> demands
>>> an instance to which mistreated and mobbed users can turn. An instance
>>> with the responsibility that normal rules in a society are upheld and
>>> with the authority to uphold them.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Lars Gardenius
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>>   Von: Peter Gervai <[hidden email]>
>>> An: Wikimedia Mailing List <[hidden email]>
>>> Gesendet: 10:50 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013
>>> Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from
>>> itself
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 10:18 AM, Lars Gardenius
>>> <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>> No I don't think it is being addressed. Not in a serious way.
>>> You mean it's not _solved_. Indeed.
>>>
>>> At least one problem was mentioned in the thread which is that the
>>> (honest, knowledgeable) newbies have unproportionally smaller
>>> debating/lobbying power than aboriginals, and they are very easy to
>>> oppress. This is an ongoing problem for the last decade or so and no
>>> good solution seem to exist.
>>>
>>> In theory there are (or could be) volunteers who could be called in
>>> cases of newbie oppression from the experienced troll^H^H^H^Heditors
>>> who would declare that they try to act as neutral as possible but they
>>> would possess more experience to handle obnoxious editors and other
>>> regual beings. Arbitration, mentoring, whatever we like to call it.
>>> Obviously it only worked if there's a free way to reject a request (if
>>> the volunteer believes the newbie has no merits, let's not call them
>>> outright trolls and vandals) and if it isn't an "official" cabal but a
>>> large catalog of helpful and experienced editors.
>>>
>>> I have often done it (and still occasionally do on Commons since it's
>>> a pretty harsh environment for newbies) and it's doable if there's
>>> enough volunteers and people don't try to do it too often, I mean, one
>>> in a week or month or so.
>>>
>>> The point is to have a group of random people who are not involved in
>>> the debate but could help to communicate with the members of the
>>> community. (Since they're uninvolved it's probably useless to call
>>> them biased, which is the easiest unargument I've seen in such
>>> debates.)
>>>
>>> g
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>
>>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

Pavlo Shevelo
In reply to this post by Anders Wennersten-2
Sorry, but I'm not agree with your note, Anders.

My home WP is not en: (it's uk: in fact) but everything being discussed is
very (100%) applicable for our community.

Lucky you are in se:WP that you have no similar issues/problems but perhaps
you've collected some magical know-how how to avoid said troubles. If so
would you please share that knowledge & experience?

Sincerely,
Pavlo


On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 2:23 PM, Anders Wennersten
<[hidden email]>wrote:

> Should not this discussion be held on he maillist for English wikipedia?
>
> There is not much, if any,  of what is being discussed that I can
> recognize from my home wp
>
> Anders
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

Anders Wennersten-2
It is no magic
*yearly reelection of administrators/sysops has meant no bullying types
are sysops any more
*we are a small community with just a few hundred active. And we have
decided to treat everyone (who are serious) as valuable individuals,  
and go a very long way to make all feeling welcome, stop behaving as
overdog/underdog and also to try special solutions for troublesome users
that enable them to not being blocked but having restrictions on certain
type of activities. Both people who have temporary maniac periods and
with autism symptoms can be useful contributers if handled right by the
communities.

But these experiences can not be extended to everywhere. en:wp have 20
times the number of contributers then sv:wp and of course this means
need of different ways of handling problems. I do not pretend to have
anything to teach en:wp, but as said I find nothing useful for sv:wp
hearing of the challenges on en:wp

Anders


Pavlo Shevelo skrev 2013-09-05 13:36:

> Sorry, but I'm not agree with your note, Anders.
>
> My home WP is not en: (it's uk: in fact) but everything being discussed is
> very (100%) applicable for our community.
>
> Lucky you are in se:WP that you have no similar issues/problems but perhaps
> you've collected some magical know-how how to avoid said troubles. If so
> would you please share that knowledge & experience?
>
> Sincerely,
> Pavlo
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 2:23 PM, Anders Wennersten
> <[hidden email]>wrote:
>
>> Should not this discussion be held on he maillist for English wikipedia?
>>
>> There is not much, if any,  of what is being discussed that I can
>> recognize from my home wp
>>
>> Anders
>>
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

Thomas Morton
In reply to this post by Rui Correia-2
Lets just be clear here, the contributuion Rui is talking about was as
follows:

Must be a joke - how can moving from W8 to W XP be called a downgrade? W8
is crap! I want a computer, not a basket of "apps" for retarded
morons!<https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Windows_XP&oldid=571533769>

His response to its removal is to suggest those removing it are paid
Pro-Microsoft editors.

Rui, what I'm going to suggest here is that you've not really understood
the processes that go into collaborating on an article. You may well be
right that the content needs changing, but your presentation of a personal
opinion in such a ranting form makes it very hard to collaborate.

Look at it from another side. If you'd put a lot of effort into writing and
article and then someone turned up on the talk page to post what looked
like a personal rant about the content, citing no sources and putting very
little in the way of suggested changes.... would you be peeved? Would you
wonder if perhaps that editor was a paid editor sent to disrupt the article
by a competitor?

Would you be offended if Lisa held that view about you (that you were a
paid advocate?).

So, yes, Wikipedia has a big problem. But it's not just abusive admins (we
have a few) and grumpy editors, or paid advocates. It is a broad spectrum
of problems - and in this case you were the one with the less-than-perfect
contribution.

Broadly speaking this is an education problem; we need to bring more focus
on the concept of the talk page as a collaboration portal *not* as a place
to discuss the topic (i.e. NOTFORUM) and we also need to emphasise the
importance of making comments in the right tone, and with supporting
sources.

Regards,
Tom


On 4 September 2013 22:08, Rui Correia <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Greetings to All
>
> Let me start by saying that I don't do much here at the WP, not compared to
> people who make hundreds of edits a week. I would love to, have a long list
> of "to-do", but unfortunately time is not on my side.
>
> In my limited involvemet here, I have seen many a good editor leave the
> project. Mostly, people leave because they can't take it anymore having to
> fight the 'blocks' of defenders that coalesce around certain topics.
>
> In itself, though not very healthy, such blocks forming around topis is
> fine. What is not fine is that if any issue gets referred to a higher
> process for a resolution, it is often the same people grouping of people
> previously involved in disputes on the same topic who come to the
> resolution forum to issue a decision. However, it is always the 'outsider'
> that loses. He gets acused of everything under the sun, and gets 'good
> advice' from supposedly neutral editors, urging him to calm down, to temper
> his language etc. It is like trying to point out that the earth is round at
> a monthly meetng of the fat-earthers. That is not healthy and is making the
> WP processes look like a kangaroo court run by a cabal.
>
> And I expect pretty much the same reaction to this email.
>
> I pointed out in an ealier email to this list the difficulty that one
> encounters when you include something negative about certain big
> corporations. I was stoned and made to feel that I was wrong and everbody
> else was right. The reaction was tantamount to a chorus of "yes, we know
> there are problems, but don't say it out loud, someone might hear you!".
>
> Let's for argument's say that I was wrong. But - more importantantly - was
> anything done to investigate what I was saying? What if there are legions
> out there paid to sanitise the pages of big corporations? And we know that
> they exist, and that WP has taken up the issue as in here,
>
> http://nick-xomba-ceo.xomba.com/microsoft_accused_of_paying_blogger_to_alter_wikipedia_articles
>
> I made a silly remark on a Talk page about the choice of the word
> "downgrade" to refer to people using Windows 8 who wanted to go back to XP.
> For a failed product, by Microsoft's own admission, going back to XP is an
> upgrade, going back to sanity, not a downgrade.
>
> I was first accused of trolling, then something else, then of offending the
> entire community of users of Windows 8. The editor who is adamant - not the
> first time - to purge ant-MS from the talkpage violated the 3RR, but
> nothing gets done about it. I reported the 3RR, and it was immediately
> closed, labelled as being relatiatory. There is a backlog of issues on that
> page, but my entry was closed within minutes.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:Codename_Lisa_reported_by_User:Rui_Gabriel_Correia_.28Result:_Closed.29
>
> It was closed, claiming that it was already being addressed elsewhere.
>
> So, I too will consider my stay here. Like I said right at the top, I don't
> do much here, so I am certain I will not even be missed. I edit in eight
> languages, small little bits here and there. I participated in a number of
> initiaves on the development of Chapters in Africa and am happy to see that
> things are moving. I had the honour and privilege to meet Jimmy Wales in
> South Africa and to discuss a few things relating to WP in Africa.
>
> So, it is time to wind down anr retire into a corner. I am busy with a
> novel, I am sure that is where I should invest my time and energy.
>
> Sincere regards to all, happy editing
>
> Rui Correia
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> _________________________
> Rui Correia
> Advocacy, Human Rights, Media and Language Work Consultant
> Bridge to Angola - Angola Liaison Consultant
>
> Mobile Number in South Africa +27 74 425 4186
> Número de Telemóvel na África do Sul +27 74 425 4186
> _______________
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

cro0016
In reply to this post by Lars Gardenius
I wouldn't say dispute resolution has never worked, nor does it not work now. It could use improvement, but the same could be said about everything (and like most things, shortages of volunteers make things harder)

Steve Zhang
Sent from my iPad

On 05/09/2013, at 6:18 PM, Lars Gardenius <[hidden email]> wrote:

> No I don't think it is being addressed. Not in a serious way.
>
> That "Wikipedia:Dispute resolution" mirrors a very naive approach in a worldwide organization. It has never worked before and it doesn't work now.
>
> To imagine that groups of people will not try and manoeuvre out persons that they don't like is very naive.
> That has not happened before in the history of mankind and the Wikis are no exception.
>
> Today noone is accountable for what they do to other Wiki-contributors, they are not even identifiable since they hide behind nome de guerres. Stewards have no authority to protect users from abuses and the same goes for the Ombudsman. (see also Rui Correia's email)
>
> So if the Wikis want to be a safe place for children and old folks alike, and that everybody shall be able to contribute on equal conditions, a more realistic organization to protect the users must be put in place.
>
>
> Regards
> Lars Gardenius
>
>
> ________________________________
> Von: Fred Bauder <[hidden email]>
> An: Wikimedia Mailing List <[hidden email]>
> Gesendet: 1:16 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013
> Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself
>
>
> It is addressed but by a rather complicated and demanding process. See
> Wikipedia:Dispute resolution. Not really workable for new users who bump
> up against well-established users who have bad habits, or have learned
> that nasty behavior pays off in being able to control content.
>
> Fred
>
>> I think you are completely right and it is a big problem in the
>> Wiki-world that is not being addressed by anyone in a leading position.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Lars Gardenius
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>>   Von: Rui Correia <[hidden email]>
>> An: Wikimedia Mailing List <[hidden email]>
>> Gesendet: 23:08 Mittwoch, 4.September 2013
>> Betreff: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself
>>
>>
>> Greetings to All
>>
>> Let me start by saying that I don't do much here at the WP, not compared
>> to
>> people who make hundreds of edits a week. I would love to, have a long
>> list
>> of "to-do", but unfortunately time is not on my side.
>>
>> In my limited involvemet here, I have seen many a good editor leave the
>> project. Mostly, people leave because they can't take it anymore having
>> to
>> fight the 'blocks' of defenders that coalesce around certain topics.
>>
>> In itself, though not very healthy, such blocks forming around topis is
>> fine. What is not fine is that if any issue gets referred to a higher
>> process for a resolution, it is often the same people grouping of people
>> previously involved in disputes on the same topic who come to the
>> resolution forum to issue a decision. However, it is always the
>> 'outsider'
>> that loses. He gets acused of everything under the sun, and gets 'good
>> advice' from supposedly neutral editors, urging him to calm down, to
>> temper
>> his language etc. It is like trying to point out that the earth is round
>> at
>> a monthly meetng of the fat-earthers. That is not healthy and is making
>> the
>> WP processes look like a kangaroo court run by a cabal.
>>
>> And I expect pretty much the same reaction to this email.
>>
>> I pointed out in an ealier email to this list the difficulty that one
>> encounters when you include something negative about certain big
>> corporations. I was stoned and made to feel that I was wrong and everbody
>> else was right. The reaction was tantamount to a chorus of "yes, we know
>> there are problems, but don't say it out loud, someone might hear you!".
>>
>> Let's for argument's say that I was wrong. But - more importantantly -
>> was
>> anything done to investigate what I was saying? What if there are legions
>> out there paid to sanitise the pages of big corporations? And we know
>> that
>> they exist, and that WP has taken up the issue as in here,
>> http://nick-xomba-ceo.xomba.com/microsoft_accused_of_paying_blogger_to_alter_wikipedia_articles
>>
>> I made a silly remark on a Talk page about the choice of the word
>> "downgrade" to refer to people using Windows 8 who wanted to go back to
>> XP.
>> For a failed product, by Microsoft's own admission, going back to XP is
>> an
>> upgrade, going back to sanity, not a downgrade.
>>
>> I was first accused of trolling, then something else, then of offending
>> the
>> entire community of users of Windows 8. The editor who is adamant - not
>> the
>> first time - to purge ant-MS from the talkpage violated the 3RR, but
>> nothing gets done about it. I reported the 3RR, and it was immediately
>> closed, labelled as being relatiatory. There is a backlog of issues on
>> that
>> page, but my entry was closed within minutes.
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:Codename_Lisa_reported_by_User:Rui_Gabriel_Correia_.28Result:_Closed.29
>>
>> It was closed, claiming that it was already being addressed elsewhere.
>>
>> So, I too will consider my stay here. Like I said right at the top, I
>> don't
>> do much here, so I am certain I will not even be missed. I edit in eight
>> languages, small little bits here and there. I participated in a number
>> of
>> initiaves on the development of Chapters in Africa and am happy to see
>> that
>> things are moving. I had the honour and privilege to meet Jimmy Wales in
>> South Africa and to discuss a few things relating to WP in Africa.
>>
>> So, it is time to wind down anr retire into a corner. I am busy with a
>> novel, I am sure that is where I should invest my time and energy.
>>
>> Sincere regards to all, happy editing
>>
>> Rui Correia
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> _________________________
>> Rui Correia
>> Advocacy, Human Rights, Media and Language Work Consultant
>> Bridge to Angola - Angola Liaison Consultant
>>
>> Mobile Number in South Africa +27 74 425 4186
>> Número de Telemóvel na Ãfrica do Sul +27 74 425 4186
>> _______________
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

Fred Bauder-2
In reply to this post by Anders Wennersten-2
That's Sweden all right, it's like a small town. Thousands of
administrators from scores of countries is another matter. Even requests
for administration is very difficult as, unless you do big time research,
or spend your life monitoring others edits and activity, you just don't
know much. Voting has the same downside; because of the volume you just
don't have enough information to register an informed opinion, at least
about individuals. The people you encounter in daily activities while
editing is only a tiny sliver.

Fred

> It is no magic
> *yearly reelection of administrators/sysops has meant no bullying types
> are sysops any more
> *we are a small community with just a few hundred active. And we have
> decided to treat everyone (who are serious) as valuable individuals,
> and go a very long way to make all feeling welcome, stop behaving as
> overdog/underdog and also to try special solutions for troublesome users
> that enable them to not being blocked but having restrictions on certain
> type of activities. Both people who have temporary maniac periods and
> with autism symptoms can be useful contributers if handled right by the
> communities.
>
> But these experiences can not be extended to everywhere. en:wp have 20
> times the number of contributers then sv:wp and of course this means
> need of different ways of handling problems. I do not pretend to have
> anything to teach en:wp, but as said I find nothing useful for sv:wp
> hearing of the challenges on en:wp
>
> Anders
>
>
> Pavlo Shevelo skrev 2013-09-05 13:36:
>> Sorry, but I'm not agree with your note, Anders.
>>
>> My home WP is not en: (it's uk: in fact) but everything being discussed
>> is
>> very (100%) applicable for our community.
>>
>> Lucky you are in se:WP that you have no similar issues/problems but
>> perhaps
>> you've collected some magical know-how how to avoid said troubles. If
>> so
>> would you please share that knowledge & experience?
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> Pavlo
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 2:23 PM, Anders Wennersten
>> <[hidden email]>wrote:
>>
>>> Should not this discussion be held on he maillist for English
>>> wikipedia?
>>>
>>> There is not much, if any,  of what is being discussed that I can
>>> recognize from my home wp
>>>
>>> Anders
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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