[Wikimedia-l] Plz ignore again

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[Wikimedia-l] Plz ignore again

Alexandros Kosiaris


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Plz ignore again

Huib Laurens
What the fuck are you doing?


On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 7:58 PM, Alexandros Kosiaris <
[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>




--
Met vriendelijke groet,

Huib Laurens
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Plz ignore again

Mike Peel
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=61917

Thanks,
Mike

On 25 Feb 2014, at 21:32, Huib Laurens <[hidden email]> wrote:

> What the fuck are you doing?
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 7:58 PM, Alexandros Kosiaris <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Met vriendelijke groet,
>
> Huib Laurens
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Plz ignore again

Lodewijk
In reply to this post by Huib Laurens
please hold your tongue and be civil. Even if you don't understand
something. Thanks! (and thanks Mike for the link!)


2014-02-25 22:32 GMT+01:00 Huib Laurens <[hidden email]>:

> What the fuck are you doing?
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 7:58 PM, Alexandros Kosiaris <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Met vriendelijke groet,
>
> Huib Laurens
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Plz ignore again

Nathan Awrich
So the lesson here is that list archives should not be messed with. I don't
think that is news, I seem to remember hearing about the havoc potentially
caused by selectively editing list archives many years ago and once in
awhile ever since.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Plz ignore again

MZMcBride-2
Nathan wrote:
>So the lesson here is that list archives should not be messed with.

Yes. A thousand times yes.

>I don't think that is news, I seem to remember hearing about the havoc
>potentially caused by selectively editing list archives many years ago
>and once in awhile ever since.

It goes something like this:

* an important enough person makes a reasonable enough request for archive
tampering;

* a root (<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/root>) tries to rewrite history;

* there are various side effects, almost always including broken links.

In this particular case, we seem to have possibly permanently damaged the
February 2014 archive. The typical side effect is every historical link
being reindexed so that links largely continue to function, but lead to
the entirely wrong post. I think we were fortunate to avoid that this time.

To be clear, this isn't operations' fault, per se, this is largely mailman
being awful. Perhaps mailman intentionally wants to prevent this type of
behavior, though there's a lot more evidence to suggest that mailman is
simply outdated, unloved, and awful. We may also be running an old version
of it, for better or worse.

The operations team is the only group capable of taking any action on
incoming requests such as this, as I understand it, so they get stuck
deciding whether or not to act. What feeds the cycle is that there's
typical staff turnover among operations and the requests are infrequent
enough. The people who do decide to act almost always immediately regret
it and vow not to repeat the mistake, but there's still a (rotating) pool
of people yet to be scarred by the experience.

Broadly, I don't think many people appreciate how important mailing lists
have been and continue to be to Wikimedia. Both in terms of providing a(n)
historical record and in terms of day-to-day workflow. It would not be a
bad investment on the part of the Wikimedia Foundation or a Wikimedia
chapter to improve (or replace) mailman. Perhaps Flow or Echo or some
other four-letter communication tool... one day. :-)

One idea I had was to have a bot or script post the full messages to wiki
pages on Meta-Wiki (e.g., "Mailing lists/wikimedia-l/foo"). This would
provide for much more stable links and provide a few other benefits. But
it didn't quite seem worth it.

MZMcBride



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Plz ignore again

Tim Landscheidt
(anonymous) wrote:

> [...]

> Broadly, I don't think many people appreciate how important mailing lists
> have been and continue to be to Wikimedia. Both in terms of providing a(n)
> historical record and in terms of day-to-day workflow. It would not be a
> bad investment on the part of the Wikimedia Foundation or a Wikimedia
> chapter to improve (or replace) mailman. Perhaps Flow or Echo or some
> other four-letter communication tool... one day. :-)

> One idea I had was to have a bot or script post the full messages to wiki
> pages on Meta-Wiki (e.g., "Mailing lists/wikimedia-l/foo"). This would
> provide for much more stable links and provide a few other benefits. But
> it didn't quite seem worth it.

I don't think that's necessary.  Gmane provides stable links
and is probably better maintained while WMF neither has to
pay for administration nor servers.  And Lars' blog posts
about requests for archive tampering are much more enter-
taining :-) (and they /exist/ compared to WMF Legal's clan-
destine behaviour that makes something like
http://www.google.com/transparencyreport/ unthinkable).

The only major problem with Gmane and wikimedia-l is that
someone has set the archives to "encrypt", so for proper
quotes of mail addresses you still have to search the WMF
archives or subscribe to a folder with auto-expire.

Tim


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