[Wikimedia-l] Post mortems

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[Wikimedia-l] Post mortems

Anthony Cole
For those not following, I recommend the discussion in response to Jonathan
Cardy's comment here:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/wikipediaweekly/permalink/960989863948845/

Anthony Cole
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Post mortems

Risker
As has already been explained on this list, many people do not have access
to Facebook.  If this is something germane and useful to a lot of people on
this list, perhaps it would be appropriate to ask Jonathan to post it here.

Risker/Anne

On 21 February 2016 at 18:34, Anthony Cole <[hidden email]> wrote:

> For those not following, I recommend the discussion in response to Jonathan
> Cardy's comment here:
>
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/wikipediaweekly/permalink/960989863948845/
>
> Anthony Cole
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
_______________________________________________
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New messages to: [hidden email]
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Post mortems

Newyorkbrad (Wikipedia)
I too am one of those people who is not to be found on Facebook.  I
only have room in my life for one online timesink ... and I already
have Wikipedia :)

Newyorkbrad

On 2/21/16, Risker <[hidden email]> wrote:

> As has already been explained on this list, many people do not have access
> to Facebook.  If this is something germane and useful to a lot of people on
> this list, perhaps it would be appropriate to ask Jonathan to post it here.
>
> Risker/Anne
>
> On 21 February 2016 at 18:34, Anthony Cole <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> For those not following, I recommend the discussion in response to
>> Jonathan
>> Cardy's comment here:
>>
>> https://www.facebook.com/groups/wikipediaweekly/permalink/960989863948845/
>>
>> Anthony Cole
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>> New messages to: [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Post mortems

Thyge
I really wonder why wikimedia discussions have migrated to FB. Are we
applying for a grant?

Thyge

2016-02-22 0:51 GMT+01:00 Newyorkbrad <[hidden email]>:

> I too am one of those people who is not to be found on Facebook.  I
> only have room in my life for one online timesink ... and I already
> have Wikipedia :)
>
> Newyorkbrad
>
> On 2/21/16, Risker <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > As has already been explained on this list, many people do not have
> access
> > to Facebook.  If this is something germane and useful to a lot of people
> on
> > this list, perhaps it would be appropriate to ask Jonathan to post it
> here.
> >
> > Risker/Anne
> >
> > On 21 February 2016 at 18:34, Anthony Cole <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> For those not following, I recommend the discussion in response to
> >> Jonathan
> >> Cardy's comment here:
> >>
> >>
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/wikipediaweekly/permalink/960989863948845/
> >>
> >> Anthony Cole
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> >> New messages to: [hidden email]
> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> >> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
_______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Post mortems

Brandon Harris
        Because Talk pages suck as a medium for conversation and all attempts to fix this have been shot down with venom.


> On Feb 21, 2016, at 3:54 PM, Thyge <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I really wonder why wikimedia discussions have migrated to FB. Are we
> applying for a grant?

---
Brandon Harris :: [hidden email] :: made of steel wool and whiskey




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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Post mortems

Craig Franklin
In reply to this post by Thyge
People will have discussions at a location that is personally convenient
for them.  Unless you're going to reprogram human nature, I don't see that
there's anything to be done about the resulting balkanisation of the
discussion.

Cheers,
Craig

On 22 February 2016 at 09:54, Thyge <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I really wonder why wikimedia discussions have migrated to FB. Are we
> applying for a grant?
>
> Thyge
>
> 2016-02-22 0:51 GMT+01:00 Newyorkbrad <[hidden email]>:
>
> > I too am one of those people who is not to be found on Facebook.  I
> > only have room in my life for one online timesink ... and I already
> > have Wikipedia :)
> >
> > Newyorkbrad
> >
> > On 2/21/16, Risker <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > As has already been explained on this list, many people do not have
> > access
> > > to Facebook.  If this is something germane and useful to a lot of
> people
> > on
> > > this list, perhaps it would be appropriate to ask Jonathan to post it
> > here.
> > >
> > > Risker/Anne
> > >
> > > On 21 February 2016 at 18:34, Anthony Cole <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > >
> > >> For those not following, I recommend the discussion in response to
> > >> Jonathan
> > >> Cardy's comment here:
> > >>
> > >>
> >
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/wikipediaweekly/permalink/960989863948845/
> > >>
> > >> Anthony Cole
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > >> New messages to: [hidden email]
> > >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> ,
> > >> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
_______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Post mortems

Risker
I can agree with what you're saying, Craig.  I can also understand what
Brandon is saying - that some people prefer that interface.

Unlike many Facebook pages, though, this one is not public and cannot be
viewed by anyone who does not have a FB account.  It's the one venue that
many interested parties cannot even read, let alone participate in, unless
they're willing to give up some fairly significant privacy.  I am
disappointed, but I do not hold it against anyone for preferring to discuss
issues in a venue not associated with Wikimedia.

Risker/Anne

On 21 February 2016 at 19:01, Craig Franklin <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> People will have discussions at a location that is personally convenient
> for them.  Unless you're going to reprogram human nature, I don't see that
> there's anything to be done about the resulting balkanisation of the
> discussion.
>
> Cheers,
> Craig
>
> On 22 February 2016 at 09:54, Thyge <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > I really wonder why wikimedia discussions have migrated to FB. Are we
> > applying for a grant?
> >
> > Thyge
> >
> > 2016-02-22 0:51 GMT+01:00 Newyorkbrad <[hidden email]>:
> >
> > > I too am one of those people who is not to be found on Facebook.  I
> > > only have room in my life for one online timesink ... and I already
> > > have Wikipedia :)
> > >
> > > Newyorkbrad
> > >
> > > On 2/21/16, Risker <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > As has already been explained on this list, many people do not have
> > > access
> > > > to Facebook.  If this is something germane and useful to a lot of
> > people
> > > on
> > > > this list, perhaps it would be appropriate to ask Jonathan to post it
> > > here.
> > > >
> > > > Risker/Anne
> > > >
> > > > On 21 February 2016 at 18:34, Anthony Cole <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> For those not following, I recommend the discussion in response to
> > > >> Jonathan
> > > >> Cardy's comment here:
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > >
> >
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/wikipediaweekly/permalink/960989863948845/
> > > >>
> > > >> Anthony Cole
> > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > >> New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > >> Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > ,
> > > >> <mailto:[hidden email]
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
New messages to: [hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Post mortems

Andrew Lih
Hi all, it’s probably useful to paste in the “What for?” message for the
Wikipedia Weekly Facebook group. Hopefully it will help clear things up.

—-
From:
https://www.facebook.com/notes/wikipedia-weekly/introduction-to-the-ww-group/961015923946239

This is a quick note about what goes on here in the Wikipedia Weekly
Facebook group. Thanks for joining what has become a useful forum in the
last few years, and especially in recent months.

Perhaps a useful motto for this group is: "High signal, key voices,
efficient volume." That's a label few would use to describe Wikimedia-L or
on-wiki discussions, even though those are very necessary and key parts of
the movement. In many ways, this is a meta-news group, pointing to the best
and most interesting things happening in our community and the public. It's
not meant to be a direct replacement for any venue that exists now.

This group started informally as a lively community space in lieu of, or in
reaction to, Wikipedia Weekly podcast episodes. Signpost, Wikimedia chapter
folks, WMF comms team, bloggers or any concerned community members are
welcome in the interest of productive and informative discussions about the
movement. One of the key aspects is that this is a respectful and highly
interactive space that, like it or not, is Facebook's main value.

As for the public/private nature of what is said here: we probably don't
have a great term for it. In some sense, it's like the open access vs TWL
(The Wikipedia Library) argument – should the comments here be referenced
(or given prominence) if it's firewalled behind a Facebook login. People
can be expected to be quoted here, but not truly hyperlinked-to. Signpost,
for example, has referenced discussions here on multiple occasions in its
news stories. This group might get people to write opinions they wouldn't
voice in other forums. I see that as a useful part of our communications
ecosystem.

Experiments like Discourse (https://discourse.wmflabs.org/) might be the
answer to help moderate the noisy, disparate and acerbic social spaces in
our movement, and I welcome it. For now, I like that this group is serving
an unmet need, and I thank the folks here for making it engaged and
meaningful.


On Sun, Feb 21, 2016 at 7:26 PM, Risker <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I can agree with what you're saying, Craig.  I can also understand what
> Brandon is saying - that some people prefer that interface.
>
> Unlike many Facebook pages, though, this one is not public and cannot be
> viewed by anyone who does not have a FB account.  It's the one venue that
> many interested parties cannot even read, let alone participate in, unless
> they're willing to give up some fairly significant privacy.  I am
> disappointed, but I do not hold it against anyone for preferring to discuss
> issues in a venue not associated with Wikimedia.
>
> Risker/Anne
>
> On 21 February 2016 at 19:01, Craig Franklin <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > People will have discussions at a location that is personally convenient
> > for them.  Unless you're going to reprogram human nature, I don't see
> that
> > there's anything to be done about the resulting balkanisation of the
> > discussion.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Craig
> >
> > On 22 February 2016 at 09:54, Thyge <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > I really wonder why wikimedia discussions have migrated to FB. Are we
> > > applying for a grant?
> > >
> > > Thyge
> > >
> > > 2016-02-22 0:51 GMT+01:00 Newyorkbrad <[hidden email]>:
> > >
> > > > I too am one of those people who is not to be found on Facebook.  I
> > > > only have room in my life for one online timesink ... and I already
> > > > have Wikipedia :)
> > > >
> > > > Newyorkbrad
> > > >
> > > > On 2/21/16, Risker <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > > As has already been explained on this list, many people do not have
> > > > access
> > > > > to Facebook.  If this is something germane and useful to a lot of
> > > people
> > > > on
> > > > > this list, perhaps it would be appropriate to ask Jonathan to post
> it
> > > > here.
> > > > >
> > > > > Risker/Anne
> > > > >
> > > > > On 21 February 2016 at 18:34, Anthony Cole <[hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> For those not following, I recommend the discussion in response to
> > > > >> Jonathan
> > > > >> Cardy's comment here:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/wikipediaweekly/permalink/960989863948845/
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Anthony Cole
> > > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > >> New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > >> Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > > ,
> > > > >> <mailto:[hidden email]
> > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
New messages to: [hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Post mortems

Thyge
I acknowledge that a group of wikipedians may discuss in any forum, they
prefer. Doing
it in a closed forum on FB does not, however, constitute a discussion by
the community,
because it excludes a  lot of people who reject i.e. the FB license, the FB
terms of use, and
last not least the FB privacy policy.

The latter is of special interest to me after having served as an ombudsman
for wikimedia.
Are people aware of the fact, that joining that group and commenting there
could easily lead to
their real identity being linked to their wiki user name - and that this in
some cases could be
more dangerous than "voicing their opinions in other forums"?

Regards,
Thyge


2016-02-22 2:57 GMT+01:00 Andrew Lih <[hidden email]>:

> Hi all, it’s probably useful to paste in the “What for?” message for the
> Wikipedia Weekly Facebook group. Hopefully it will help clear things up.
>
> —-
> From:
>
> https://www.facebook.com/notes/wikipedia-weekly/introduction-to-the-ww-group/961015923946239
>
> This is a quick note about what goes on here in the Wikipedia Weekly
> Facebook group. Thanks for joining what has become a useful forum in the
> last few years, and especially in recent months.
>
> Perhaps a useful motto for this group is: "High signal, key voices,
> efficient volume." That's a label few would use to describe Wikimedia-L or
> on-wiki discussions, even though those are very necessary and key parts of
> the movement. In many ways, this is a meta-news group, pointing to the best
> and most interesting things happening in our community and the public. It's
> not meant to be a direct replacement for any venue that exists now.
>
> This group started informally as a lively community space in lieu of, or in
> reaction to, Wikipedia Weekly podcast episodes. Signpost, Wikimedia chapter
> folks, WMF comms team, bloggers or any concerned community members are
> welcome in the interest of productive and informative discussions about the
> movement. One of the key aspects is that this is a respectful and highly
> interactive space that, like it or not, is Facebook's main value.
>
> As for the public/private nature of what is said here: we probably don't
> have a great term for it. In some sense, it's like the open access vs TWL
> (The Wikipedia Library) argument – should the comments here be referenced
> (or given prominence) if it's firewalled behind a Facebook login. People
> can be expected to be quoted here, but not truly hyperlinked-to. Signpost,
> for example, has referenced discussions here on multiple occasions in its
> news stories. This group might get people to write opinions they wouldn't
> voice in other forums. I see that as a useful part of our communications
> ecosystem.
>
> Experiments like Discourse (https://discourse.wmflabs.org/) might be the
> answer to help moderate the noisy, disparate and acerbic social spaces in
> our movement, and I welcome it. For now, I like that this group is serving
> an unmet need, and I thank the folks here for making it engaged and
> meaningful.
>
>
> On Sun, Feb 21, 2016 at 7:26 PM, Risker <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > I can agree with what you're saying, Craig.  I can also understand what
> > Brandon is saying - that some people prefer that interface.
> >
> > Unlike many Facebook pages, though, this one is not public and cannot be
> > viewed by anyone who does not have a FB account.  It's the one venue that
> > many interested parties cannot even read, let alone participate in,
> unless
> > they're willing to give up some fairly significant privacy.  I am
> > disappointed, but I do not hold it against anyone for preferring to
> discuss
> > issues in a venue not associated with Wikimedia.
> >
> > Risker/Anne
> >
> > On 21 February 2016 at 19:01, Craig Franklin <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > People will have discussions at a location that is personally
> convenient
> > > for them.  Unless you're going to reprogram human nature, I don't see
> > that
> > > there's anything to be done about the resulting balkanisation of the
> > > discussion.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Craig
> > >
> > > On 22 February 2016 at 09:54, Thyge <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I really wonder why wikimedia discussions have migrated to FB. Are we
> > > > applying for a grant?
> > > >
> > > > Thyge
> > > >
> > > > 2016-02-22 0:51 GMT+01:00 Newyorkbrad <[hidden email]>:
> > > >
> > > > > I too am one of those people who is not to be found on Facebook.  I
> > > > > only have room in my life for one online timesink ... and I already
> > > > > have Wikipedia :)
> > > > >
> > > > > Newyorkbrad
> > > > >
> > > > > On 2/21/16, Risker <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > > > As has already been explained on this list, many people do not
> have
> > > > > access
> > > > > > to Facebook.  If this is something germane and useful to a lot of
> > > > people
> > > > > on
> > > > > > this list, perhaps it would be appropriate to ask Jonathan to
> post
> > it
> > > > > here.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Risker/Anne
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 21 February 2016 at 18:34, Anthony Cole <[hidden email]>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> For those not following, I recommend the discussion in response
> to
> > > > > >> Jonathan
> > > > > >> Cardy's comment here:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/wikipediaweekly/permalink/960989863948845/
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Anthony Cole
> > > > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > > > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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> > > > > >> New messages to: [hidden email]
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> > > > ,
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Post mortems

Andrew Lih
On Sun, Feb 21, 2016 at 9:23 PM, Thyge <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I acknowledge that a group of wikipedians may discuss in any forum, they
> prefer. Doing
> it in a closed forum on FB does not, however, constitute a discussion by
> the community,
> because it excludes a  lot of people who reject i.e. the FB license, the FB
> terms of use, and
> last not least the FB privacy policy.
>

True, though IRC also excludes a lot of people as it’s not allowed to be
logged, thereby leaving many people out of the loop.

As was mentioned in the introduction message, it is not meant to replace
anything that exists currently and it does not purport to declare itself
“the community.” (Though “the community” has always been a vague and
imperfect construct so as to be nearly meaningless, even before the
emergence of this Facebook group.)

If the forum helps with engagement with our movement, I’m glad it serves
that purpose, such as highlighting goings-on in spaces we already have.


> The latter is of special interest to me after having served as an ombudsman
> for wikimedia.
> Are people aware of the fact, that joining that group and commenting there
> could easily lead to
> their real identity being linked to their wiki user name - and that this in
> some cases could be
> more dangerous than "voicing their opinions in other forums"?
>

I’d be shocked if people participating there were not aware that their IRL
identities could be linked to their Wikipedia identities. That’s a
determination folks have made, and are satisfied with. Though, this is
probably not a bad thing to remind folks of in that intro message.

Best,
-Andrew
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Post mortems

Gergő Tisza
One example of the shortcomings of emails as a medium for complex
discussions is how this thread about postmortems continues to be diverted
into discussions about Facebook, despite Pete's best efforts.

At the end of the day, people will prefer tools that work well over tools
that align philosophically. One can sabotage the development of tools that
would both work well and uphold Wikimedia's values, but cannot prevent
important discussions from moving to other venues (which will necessarily
be a worse match for those values). There is a lesson there, although I'm
afraid it will take some more time before we learn it.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Post mortems

Risker
Meh, I'm fine with people talking in any venue they wish.  Speaking only
for myself, I don't need to read everything everyone has written; if it's
something that needs to be brought to broader attention, chances are
someone will facilitate it.  But I think even those who are entirely happy
to be on Facebook would agree there's a bit of an irony on talking about
the respect for Wikimedia community values on a site that explicitly
doesn't share them.

That, and it's a bit unfair to tease people.

Risker/Anne

On 21 February 2016 at 22:01, Gergő Tisza <[hidden email]> wrote:

> One example of the shortcomings of emails as a medium for complex
> discussions is how this thread about postmortems continues to be diverted
> into discussions about Facebook, despite Pete's best efforts.
>
> At the end of the day, people will prefer tools that work well over tools
> that align philosophically. One can sabotage the development of tools that
> would both work well and uphold Wikimedia's values, but cannot prevent
> important discussions from moving to other venues (which will necessarily
> be a worse match for those values). There is a lesson there, although I'm
> afraid it will take some more time before we learn it.
> _______________________________________________
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> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Post mortems

GorillaWarfare
In reply to this post by Gergő Tisza
It would be fairly trivial to archive the discussions there someplace that
was publicly viewable. However, it would require consent from the ~450 (at
last glance) members that their comments and the names they use on Facebook
be published, and I'm not sure that's feasible. Still, it's a thought...

There is some valuable discussion that happens there, and it would be neat
to replicate it somewhere more accessible and free, even in a read-only
format.

– Molly (GorillaWarfare)
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Post mortems

Yaroslav M. Blanter
In reply to this post by Gergő Tisza
On 2016-02-22 04:01, Gergő Tisza wrote:

> One example of the shortcomings of emails as a medium for complex
> discussions is how this thread about postmortems continues to be
> diverted
> into discussions about Facebook, despite Pete's best efforts.
>
> At the end of the day, people will prefer tools that work well over
> tools
> that align philosophically. One can sabotage the development of tools
> that
> would both work well and uphold Wikimedia's values, but cannot prevent
> important discussions from moving to other venues (which will
> necessarily
> be a worse match for those values). There is a lesson there, although
> I'm
> afraid it will take some more time before we learn it.

Meta rather than the mailing list would be the proper place to discuss
such things. However, for the last many years meta has been a terrible
mess, where it is impossible to find anything, and which only
meta-regulars (mainly people highly involved with WMF) were able to
follow on a daily basis. The introduction of the global watchlist might
solve this bit of the problem.

Cheers
Yaroslav

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Post mortems

Pete Forsyth-2
In reply to this post by GorillaWarfare
On Sun, Feb 21, 2016 at 7:13 PM, Molly White <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> It would be fairly trivial to archive the discussions there someplace that
> was publicly viewable. However, it would require consent from the ~450 (at
> last glance) members that their comments and the names they use on Facebook
> be published, and I'm not sure that's feasible.
>

I suggested that on the group a week or two ago; a few individuals strongly
objected. But I agree, it would be valuable to have this option (even
partially).

Two possibilities:
(a) An opt-in registry somewhere, where those of us who don't mind having
our public comments repeated in a different public venue can clearly assert
that, as well as a blanket license for what we publish on Wikipedia Weekly;
(b) Software (I don't remember the name, but Erik know it) that makes
self-archiving of stuff like this easy. I don't know whether it yet has
Facebook compatibility, but presumably that could be added if not.

-Pete
[[User:Peteforsyth]]
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