[Wikimedia-l] Proposal regarding norms for meeting/deadline announcements

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[Wikimedia-l] Proposal regarding norms for meeting/deadline announcements

Pine W
Hi Wikimedia-l and Wikitech-l,

Keeping in mind the large numbers of subscribers on some Wikimedia email
lists, the endless valuable uses for the time of knowledgeable volunteer
Wikimedians, the significant financial costs for the time of many of the
staff and contractors on these mailing lists, and how packed calendars can
be, I propose that we implement a few social norms/guidelines for
Wikimedia-l and Wikitech-l in particular.

1. When planning to have a one-time public meeting, announce it at least 14
days in advance to give everyone who might like to participate that much
lead time to clear space on their calendars. Rarely is a one-time public
meeting so urgent that it cannot wait 14 days from the day that it is
announced.

2. Send a maximum of one reminder email regarding a one-time public
meeting, and also send a maximum of one reminder email regarding events
with deadlines such as Wikimania scholarship submissions or conference
presentation proposals. More than one reminder about a meeting or deadline
is excessive.

3. If extending a deadline, send only an announcement of the extension with
no additional reminder.

4. Send only one email to announce a recurring weekly meeting, with no
additional reminders. Meetings which recur less often, such as biweekly or
monthly, may continue to be announced with one additional reminder.

At this time these are proposals only. Comments are welcome. If the
comments become extensive then I may request that we move the conversation
to Meta.

Thank you,

Pine
( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Proposal regarding norms for meeting/deadline announcements

Rehman Abubakr
Hello Pine,


Since we're on the topic of mailing list norms, may I also suggest that we please do not copy the entire mailing list for any one-to-one well wishes as well?


Example: "Congrats" messages to various topics like project completed, new affiliate, edit count, or whatsoever. Certain times, more than half of my mailbox are simply a pile-up of one-to-one congratulatory messages that really doesn't concern 99% of the readers. Maybe those can be sent direct/off-list?


Sorry to somewhat change the topic. But I feel this needs to be said somewhere, and it might as well be here. :)



Yours truly,

User:Rehman


________________________________
From: Wikimedia-l <[hidden email]> on behalf of Pine W <[hidden email]>
Sent: 16 October 2018 02:19
To: Wikimedia Mailing List; [hidden email]
Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Proposal regarding norms for meeting/deadline announcements

Hi Wikimedia-l and Wikitech-l,

Keeping in mind the large numbers of subscribers on some Wikimedia email
lists, the endless valuable uses for the time of knowledgeable volunteer
Wikimedians, the significant financial costs for the time of many of the
staff and contractors on these mailing lists, and how packed calendars can
be, I propose that we implement a few social norms/guidelines for
Wikimedia-l and Wikitech-l in particular.

1. When planning to have a one-time public meeting, announce it at least 14
days in advance to give everyone who might like to participate that much
lead time to clear space on their calendars. Rarely is a one-time public
meeting so urgent that it cannot wait 14 days from the day that it is
announced.

2. Send a maximum of one reminder email regarding a one-time public
meeting, and also send a maximum of one reminder email regarding events
with deadlines such as Wikimania scholarship submissions or conference
presentation proposals. More than one reminder about a meeting or deadline
is excessive.

3. If extending a deadline, send only an announcement of the extension with
no additional reminder.

4. Send only one email to announce a recurring weekly meeting, with no
additional reminders. Meetings which recur less often, such as biweekly or
monthly, may continue to be announced with one additional reminder.

At this time these are proposals only. Comments are welcome. If the
comments become extensive then I may request that we move the conversation
to Meta.

Thank you,

Pine
( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: [hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Proposal regarding norms for meeting/deadline announcements

Strainu
In reply to this post by Pine W
Pe luni, 15 octombrie 2018, Pine W <[hidden email]> a scris:

> Hi Wikimedia-l and Wikitech-l,
>
> Keeping in mind the large numbers of subscribers on some Wikimedia email
> lists, the endless valuable uses for the time of knowledgeable volunteer
> Wikimedians, the significant financial costs for the time of many of the
> staff and contractors on these mailing lists, and how packed calendars can
> be, I propose that we implement a few social norms/guidelines for
> Wikimedia-l and Wikitech-l in particular.
>
> 1. When planning to have a one-time public meeting, announce it at least 14
> days in advance to give everyone who might like to participate that much
> lead time to clear space on their calendars. Rarely is a one-time public
> meeting so urgent that it cannot wait 14 days from the day that it is
> announced.
>
> 2. Send a maximum of one reminder email regarding a one-time public
> meeting, and also send a maximum of one reminder email regarding events
> with deadlines such as Wikimania scholarship submissions or conference
> presentation proposals. More than one reminder about a meeting or deadline
> is excessive.


I doubt that one reminder is enough. Reminders are a powerful motivator for
many people, so it is important to have them at the right time.  People
have different ways of planning and different ways of preparing for an
event. For some an hour might be enough to write a scholarship application,
while others will craft it over many nights. All deserve to receive a
reminder at the right time for them.


> 3. If extending a deadline, send only an announcement of the extension with
> no additional reminder.


Same comment as above.


>
> 4. Send only one email to announce a recurring weekly meeting, with no
> additional reminders. Meetings which recur less often, such as biweekly or
> monthly, may continue to be announced with one additional reminder.
>
> At this time these are proposals only. Comments are welcome. If the
> comments become extensive then I may request that we move the conversation
> to Meta.


Overall, I would like to suggest that people unhappy with the current
activity level should consider alternatives to their workflows, such as
digests and smarter mail clients, rather than impose rules on others.

Regards,
  Strainu

>
> Thank you,
>
> Pine
> ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Proposal regarding norms for meeting/deadline announcements

Pine W
I've heard little support for new norms regarding reminders and
announcements of deadlines on Wikimedia-l and Wikitech-l, so I withdraw my
proposal. I may revisit this subject in the future.

Pine
( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Proposal regarding norms for meeting/deadline announcements

Jan Ainali-4
In reply to this post by Rehman Abubakr
I do agree with Rehman, that would help a lot.

Jan Ainali


Den tis 16 okt. 2018 kl 04:19 skrev Rehman Abubakr <
[hidden email]>:

> Hello Pine,
>
>
> Since we're on the topic of mailing list norms, may I also suggest that we
> please do not copy the entire mailing list for any one-to-one well wishes
> as well?
>
>
> Example: "Congrats" messages to various topics like project completed, new
> affiliate, edit count, or whatsoever. Certain times, more than half of my
> mailbox are simply a pile-up of one-to-one congratulatory messages that
> really doesn't concern 99% of the readers. Maybe those can be sent
> direct/off-list?
>
>
> Sorry to somewhat change the topic. But I feel this needs to be said
> somewhere, and it might as well be here. :)
>
>
>
> Yours truly,
>
> User:Rehman
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Wikimedia-l <[hidden email]> on behalf of
> Pine W <[hidden email]>
> Sent: 16 October 2018 02:19
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List; [hidden email]
> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Proposal regarding norms for meeting/deadline
> announcements
>
> Hi Wikimedia-l and Wikitech-l,
>
> Keeping in mind the large numbers of subscribers on some Wikimedia email
> lists, the endless valuable uses for the time of knowledgeable volunteer
> Wikimedians, the significant financial costs for the time of many of the
> staff and contractors on these mailing lists, and how packed calendars can
> be, I propose that we implement a few social norms/guidelines for
> Wikimedia-l and Wikitech-l in particular.
>
> 1. When planning to have a one-time public meeting, announce it at least 14
> days in advance to give everyone who might like to participate that much
> lead time to clear space on their calendars. Rarely is a one-time public
> meeting so urgent that it cannot wait 14 days from the day that it is
> announced.
>
> 2. Send a maximum of one reminder email regarding a one-time public
> meeting, and also send a maximum of one reminder email regarding events
> with deadlines such as Wikimania scholarship submissions or conference
> presentation proposals. More than one reminder about a meeting or deadline
> is excessive.
>
> 3. If extending a deadline, send only an announcement of the extension with
> no additional reminder.
>
> 4. Send only one email to announce a recurring weekly meeting, with no
> additional reminders. Meetings which recur less often, such as biweekly or
> monthly, may continue to be announced with one additional reminder.
>
> At this time these are proposals only. Comments are welcome. If the
> comments become extensive then I may request that we move the conversation
> to Meta.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Pine
> ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
_______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Proposal regarding norms for meeting/deadline announcements

Effe iets anders
In reply to this post by Pine W
Hi Pine,

I would also suggest not to get overly bureaucratic with this :) If the
public meeting you refer to requires a large attendance, the 14 days makes
sense for example - but I cannot recall many meetings of that style.
Rather, most meetings are either scheduled taking the availability of
participants in mind, or it is to get input (where it is more important to
have a bunch of people show up, than to have everyone participate).

Whether more than one reminder is excessive, is imho quite subjective. I
appreciate most reminders, especially if they stick to the same thread.

On a side note: are there any weekly meetings being announced on this list?
Again, it highly depends on the topic, and whether the reminder may also
contain more information.

My point? Don't worry about it so much :) Be flexible with this, and go
with the flow. People can figure this out quite well if they use their
common sense without added bureaucracy.

Lodewijk

On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 1:50 PM Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Wikimedia-l and Wikitech-l,
>
> Keeping in mind the large numbers of subscribers on some Wikimedia email
> lists, the endless valuable uses for the time of knowledgeable volunteer
> Wikimedians, the significant financial costs for the time of many of the
> staff and contractors on these mailing lists, and how packed calendars can
> be, I propose that we implement a few social norms/guidelines for
> Wikimedia-l and Wikitech-l in particular.
>
> 1. When planning to have a one-time public meeting, announce it at least 14
> days in advance to give everyone who might like to participate that much
> lead time to clear space on their calendars. Rarely is a one-time public
> meeting so urgent that it cannot wait 14 days from the day that it is
> announced.
>
> 2. Send a maximum of one reminder email regarding a one-time public
> meeting, and also send a maximum of one reminder email regarding events
> with deadlines such as Wikimania scholarship submissions or conference
> presentation proposals. More than one reminder about a meeting or deadline
> is excessive.
>
> 3. If extending a deadline, send only an announcement of the extension with
> no additional reminder.
>
> 4. Send only one email to announce a recurring weekly meeting, with no
> additional reminders. Meetings which recur less often, such as biweekly or
> monthly, may continue to be announced with one additional reminder.
>
> At this time these are proposals only. Comments are welcome. If the
> comments become extensive then I may request that we move the conversation
> to Meta.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Pine
> ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: [hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Proposal regarding norms for meeting/deadline announcements

Pine W
Hi  Lodewijk,

I want to encourage people to feel comfortable with posting in-scope and
civil emails to WMF mailing lists, but my personal opinion is that the
number of reminders is sometimes excessive and the related costs are
non-trivial.

My view is that excessive reminders about meetings have recently been
especially afflicting Wikitech-l, but have also taken place on Wikimedia-l
periodically.

If we multiply the quantity of seconds that the average person spends
clicking or scanning through a reminder email by (1) the number of
recipients and (2) the average hourly value of recipients' time, I don't
know what the total costs (in money and time) would be but I think that
they would be non-trivial.

I think that I'm being reasonable in requesting that people make
announcements about most one-time meetings 14 days in advance.

However, I seem to be a minority of one. And speaking of time management,
my guess is that there are hundreds or thousands of other busy people on
these mailing lists who might not appreciate my continuing to press this
subject, so I'm moving on.

Pine
( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )


On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 11:34 PM effe iets anders <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hi Pine,
>
> I would also suggest not to get overly bureaucratic with this :) If the
> public meeting you refer to requires a large attendance, the 14 days makes
> sense for example - but I cannot recall many meetings of that style.
> Rather, most meetings are either scheduled taking the availability of
> participants in mind, or it is to get input (where it is more important to
> have a bunch of people show up, than to have everyone participate).
>
> Whether more than one reminder is excessive, is imho quite subjective. I
> appreciate most reminders, especially if they stick to the same thread.
>
> On a side note: are there any weekly meetings being announced on this list?
> Again, it highly depends on the topic, and whether the reminder may also
> contain more information.
>
> My point? Don't worry about it so much :) Be flexible with this, and go
> with the flow. People can figure this out quite well if they use their
> common sense without added bureaucracy.
>
> Lodewijk
>
>
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Proposal regarding norms for meeting/deadline announcements

Paulo Santos Perneta
In reply to this post by Rehman Abubakr
Point 3.1.3 of RFC 1855 (Netiquette Guidelines), 1995 [1] :

"- Send mail when an answer to a question is for one person only.
      Remember that News has global distribution and the whole world
      probably is NOT interested in a personal response.  However, don't
      hesitate to post when something will be of general interest to the
      Newsgroup participants."

Just replace "News" with Mailing List, and "mail" with personal mail, as
this was crafted for long gone Usenet. But it's the same thing.

Also of interest, and in the same line, is the "Me Too" advice just above
this one. :)

[1] https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1855.txt

Paulo

Rehman Abubakr <[hidden email]> escreveu no dia terça,
16/10/2018 à(s) 03:19:

> Hello Pine,
>
>
> Since we're on the topic of mailing list norms, may I also suggest that we
> please do not copy the entire mailing list for any one-to-one well wishes
> as well?
>
>
> Example: "Congrats" messages to various topics like project completed, new
> affiliate, edit count, or whatsoever. Certain times, more than half of my
> mailbox are simply a pile-up of one-to-one congratulatory messages that
> really doesn't concern 99% of the readers. Maybe those can be sent
> direct/off-list?
>
>
> Sorry to somewhat change the topic. But I feel this needs to be said
> somewhere, and it might as well be here. :)
>
>
>
> Yours truly,
>
> User:Rehman
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Wikimedia-l <[hidden email]> on behalf of
> Pine W <[hidden email]>
> Sent: 16 October 2018 02:19
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List; [hidden email]
> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Proposal regarding norms for meeting/deadline
> announcements
>
> Hi Wikimedia-l and Wikitech-l,
>
> Keeping in mind the large numbers of subscribers on some Wikimedia email
> lists, the endless valuable uses for the time of knowledgeable volunteer
> Wikimedians, the significant financial costs for the time of many of the
> staff and contractors on these mailing lists, and how packed calendars can
> be, I propose that we implement a few social norms/guidelines for
> Wikimedia-l and Wikitech-l in particular.
>
> 1. When planning to have a one-time public meeting, announce it at least 14
> days in advance to give everyone who might like to participate that much
> lead time to clear space on their calendars. Rarely is a one-time public
> meeting so urgent that it cannot wait 14 days from the day that it is
> announced.
>
> 2. Send a maximum of one reminder email regarding a one-time public
> meeting, and also send a maximum of one reminder email regarding events
> with deadlines such as Wikimania scholarship submissions or conference
> presentation proposals. More than one reminder about a meeting or deadline
> is excessive.
>
> 3. If extending a deadline, send only an announcement of the extension with
> no additional reminder.
>
> 4. Send only one email to announce a recurring weekly meeting, with no
> additional reminders. Meetings which recur less often, such as biweekly or
> monthly, may continue to be announced with one additional reminder.
>
> At this time these are proposals only. Comments are welcome. If the
> comments become extensive then I may request that we move the conversation
> to Meta.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Pine
> ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
_______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Proposal regarding norms for meeting/deadline announcements

Fæ
In reply to this post by Effe iets anders
On Mon, 22 Oct 2018 at 00:34, effe iets anders <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Hi Pine,
>
> I would also suggest not to get overly bureaucratic with this :) If the
> public meeting you refer to requires a large attendance, the 14 days makes
> sense for example - but I cannot recall many meetings of that style.
> Rather, most meetings are either scheduled taking the availability of
> participants in mind, or it is to get input (where it is more important to
> have a bunch of people show up, than to have everyone participate).
>
> Whether more than one reminder is excessive, is imho quite subjective. I
> appreciate most reminders, especially if they stick to the same thread.
>
> On a side note: are there any weekly meetings being announced on this list?
> Again, it highly depends on the topic, and whether the reminder may also
> contain more information.
>
> My point? Don't worry about it so much :) Be flexible with this, and go
> with the flow. People can figure this out quite well if they use their
> common sense without added bureaucracy.
>
> Lodewijk
>
> On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 1:50 PM Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Hi Wikimedia-l and Wikitech-l,
> >
> > Keeping in mind the large numbers of subscribers on some Wikimedia email
> > lists, the endless valuable uses for the time of knowledgeable volunteer
> > Wikimedians, the significant financial costs for the time of many of the
> > staff and contractors on these mailing lists, and how packed calendars can
> > be, I propose that we implement a few social norms/guidelines for
> > Wikimedia-l and Wikitech-l in particular.
> >
> > 1. When planning to have a one-time public meeting, announce it at least 14
> > days in advance to give everyone who might like to participate that much
> > lead time to clear space on their calendars. Rarely is a one-time public
> > meeting so urgent that it cannot wait 14 days from the day that it is
> > announced.
> >
> > 2. Send a maximum of one reminder email regarding a one-time public
> > meeting, and also send a maximum of one reminder email regarding events
> > with deadlines such as Wikimania scholarship submissions or conference
> > presentation proposals. More than one reminder about a meeting or deadline
> > is excessive.
> >
> > 3. If extending a deadline, send only an announcement of the extension with
> > no additional reminder.
> >
> > 4. Send only one email to announce a recurring weekly meeting, with no
> > additional reminders. Meetings which recur less often, such as biweekly or
> > monthly, may continue to be announced with one additional reminder.
> >
> > At this time these are proposals only. Comments are welcome. If the
> > comments become extensive then I may request that we move the conversation
> > to Meta.
> >
> > Thank you,
> >
> > Pine
> > ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>

Completely agree that this is a real problem, and that solving it is a
positive change rather than a "bureaucratic" one.

As a reminder for everyone who reads this list, it is defined as:[1]
Wikimedia Mailing List
Discussion list for the Wikimedia community and the larger network of
organizations (Wikimedia Foundation, chapter organizations,
affiliates, partners) supporting its work.

Let's agree to draw the common-sense distinction between having a
*discussion* and one-way *broadcasting* announcements, PR statements
and thankspam. This list is not intended for any of the latter, and
filling subscriber's inboxes with announcements rather than
interesting contemporary discussion is damaging this list and reduces
its subscriber base. This is probably a significant part of why
subscription and community engagement has been seriously dropping off
over the last few years.

I propose that we create a movement wide announcements list
(wikimedia-announcements) that is intended for broadcasting, rather
than discussion, and this list can be kept for discussion. If people
feel they need to send three announcements/reminders/changes for the
same meeting, then that can be okay on the announcements list, and
should be called out as misuse, or even hijacking, for this discussion
list. A simple change, and for those that wish to follow
announcements, makes it easy for them to be automatically filtered.

Links
1. https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

Thanks,
Fae
--
[hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Proposal regarding norms for meeting/deadline announcements

Leila Zia
I did one pass over the emails in the past two months and I don't see
excessive (the way I understand the word) reminders and announcements
except perhaps for Research Showcase. ;) If that is the only event
that is triggering this conversation, the solution is easy: You can
just tell me your feedback and I'll take it back to the team and we
can most probably update the workflow on our end. (I have a sense that
one email about that event to wikimedia-l is enough and reminders are
not needed.)

If the conversation is about more than one event, yeah, perhaps we
should discuss more. I like the idea of a separate announcement list
but I'm also concerned about making ourselves too thin across many
channels. Maybe we can have a norm that every announcement to
wikimedia-l should have an [announcement] tag in the subject for
people to easily filter out. I personally don't mind the intensity of
announcements as the Mute button in my email client works effectively
(as long as, as Lodewijk said, people don't start new threads.:)

And while we're on the subject of emails: As a member of this list,
what concerns me is the lack of diversity of voices in many instances
and conversations. I would love to learn how we can change this and if
one or more of you are up for helping prepare a survey to run on the
list to learn more, please let me know. (This will be with my
volunteer hat on. and I want to clarify that this needs to be
coordinated with the list moderators.)

Best,
Leila

--
Leila Zia
Senior Research Scientist, Lead
Wikimedia Foundation

On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 4:30 AM Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On Mon, 22 Oct 2018 at 00:34, effe iets anders <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Pine,
> >
> > I would also suggest not to get overly bureaucratic with this :) If the
> > public meeting you refer to requires a large attendance, the 14 days makes
> > sense for example - but I cannot recall many meetings of that style.
> > Rather, most meetings are either scheduled taking the availability of
> > participants in mind, or it is to get input (where it is more important to
> > have a bunch of people show up, than to have everyone participate).
> >
> > Whether more than one reminder is excessive, is imho quite subjective. I
> > appreciate most reminders, especially if they stick to the same thread.
> >
> > On a side note: are there any weekly meetings being announced on this list?
> > Again, it highly depends on the topic, and whether the reminder may also
> > contain more information.
> >
> > My point? Don't worry about it so much :) Be flexible with this, and go
> > with the flow. People can figure this out quite well if they use their
> > common sense without added bureaucracy.
> >
> > Lodewijk
> >
> > On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 1:50 PM Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Wikimedia-l and Wikitech-l,
> > >
> > > Keeping in mind the large numbers of subscribers on some Wikimedia email
> > > lists, the endless valuable uses for the time of knowledgeable volunteer
> > > Wikimedians, the significant financial costs for the time of many of the
> > > staff and contractors on these mailing lists, and how packed calendars can
> > > be, I propose that we implement a few social norms/guidelines for
> > > Wikimedia-l and Wikitech-l in particular.
> > >
> > > 1. When planning to have a one-time public meeting, announce it at least 14
> > > days in advance to give everyone who might like to participate that much
> > > lead time to clear space on their calendars. Rarely is a one-time public
> > > meeting so urgent that it cannot wait 14 days from the day that it is
> > > announced.
> > >
> > > 2. Send a maximum of one reminder email regarding a one-time public
> > > meeting, and also send a maximum of one reminder email regarding events
> > > with deadlines such as Wikimania scholarship submissions or conference
> > > presentation proposals. More than one reminder about a meeting or deadline
> > > is excessive.
> > >
> > > 3. If extending a deadline, send only an announcement of the extension with
> > > no additional reminder.
> > >
> > > 4. Send only one email to announce a recurring weekly meeting, with no
> > > additional reminders. Meetings which recur less often, such as biweekly or
> > > monthly, may continue to be announced with one additional reminder.
> > >
> > > At this time these are proposals only. Comments are welcome. If the
> > > comments become extensive then I may request that we move the conversation
> > > to Meta.
> > >
> > > Thank you,
> > >
> > > Pine
> > > ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
> Completely agree that this is a real problem, and that solving it is a
> positive change rather than a "bureaucratic" one.
>
> As a reminder for everyone who reads this list, it is defined as:[1]
> Wikimedia Mailing List
> Discussion list for the Wikimedia community and the larger network of
> organizations (Wikimedia Foundation, chapter organizations,
> affiliates, partners) supporting its work.
>
> Let's agree to draw the common-sense distinction between having a
> *discussion* and one-way *broadcasting* announcements, PR statements
> and thankspam. This list is not intended for any of the latter, and
> filling subscriber's inboxes with announcements rather than
> interesting contemporary discussion is damaging this list and reduces
> its subscriber base. This is probably a significant part of why
> subscription and community engagement has been seriously dropping off
> over the last few years.
>
> I propose that we create a movement wide announcements list
> (wikimedia-announcements) that is intended for broadcasting, rather
> than discussion, and this list can be kept for discussion. If people
> feel they need to send three announcements/reminders/changes for the
> same meeting, then that can be okay on the announcements list, and
> should be called out as misuse, or even hijacking, for this discussion
> list. A simple change, and for those that wish to follow
> announcements, makes it easy for them to be automatically filtered.
>
> Links
> 1. https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>
> Thanks,
> Fae
> --
> [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>
> _______________________________________________
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> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Proposal regarding norms for meeting/deadline announcements

Philippe Beaudette-4
In reply to this post by Fæ
On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 4:30 AM Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> I propose that we create a movement wide announcements list
> (wikimedia-announcements) that is intended for broadcasting, rather
> than discussion...
>
>
Hi Fae,

Are you suggesting the creation of another announcements list?  In addition
to  https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaannounce-l?  Is
there something wrong with wikimediaannounce-l?  It even forwards all
replies to this list for discussion.

Thanks,

pb
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Proposal regarding norms for meeting/deadline announcements

Strainu
In reply to this post by Pine W
There is a saying that it's much easier to change yourself than to change
others. I strongly believe that this applies here.

Since my original suggestion might have seemed too technical,let me try to
rephrase it. Gmail has a "mute thread" feature, and so do many other email
clients. You can also "mark as read" by subject using filters. Look them
up, the first Google results should clarify the usage. It won't take you
more than half an hour to get rid of reminders for good.

Strainu

Pe miercuri, 24 octombrie 2018, 80hnhtv4agou--- via Wikimedia-l <
[hidden email]> a scris:

>
> have you seen this;
>   Do you want to receive messages that do
> not match any topic filter?
> This option only takes effect if you've
> subscribed to at least one topic above. It describes what the default
> delivery
> rule is for messages that don't match any topic filter.
> Selecting   No   says that if the
> message does not match any topic filters, then you won't get the message,
> while
> selecting   Yes   says to deliver such
> non-matching messages to you.
> If no topics of interest are selected
> above, then you will receive every message sent to the mailing
> list. Avoid duplicate copies of
> messages?
> When you are listed explicitly in
> the   To:   or   Cc:   headers
> of a list message, you can opt to not receive another copy from the
> mailing
> list. Select   Yes   to avoid receiving
> copies from the mailing list;
> select   No   to receive
> copies.
> If the list has member personalized
> messages enabled, and you elect to receive copies, every copy will have
> a   X-Mailman-Copy: yes   header added
> to it.
>
> From: Philippe Beaudette
> Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2018 3:58 PM
> To: Wikimedia Mailing
> List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Proposal regarding norms for
> meeting/deadlineannouncements
>
> On
> Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 4:30 AM Fæ < [hidden email] >
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > I propose that we create a movement wide
> announcements list
> > (wikimedia-announcements) that is intended for
> broadcasting, rather
> > than discussion...
> >
> >
> Hi
> Fae,
>
> Are you suggesting the creation of another announcements list?
> In addition
> to   https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaannounce-l ?
> Is
> there something wrong with wikimediaannounce-l?  It even forwards
> all
> replies to this list for
> discussion.
>
> Thanks,
>
> pb
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l
> mailing list, guidelines at:  https://meta.wikimedia.org/
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> and  https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>
> New
> messages to:  [hidden email]
>
> Unsubscribe:  https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
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>
> >
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