[Wikimedia-l] Proposal to use the internal wiki more

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[Wikimedia-l] Proposal to use the internal wiki more

Michael Peel-4
Hi all,

There's currently a proposal on the internal mailing list to close it, as well as the internal wiki. Although I don't disagree with closing the internal-l mailing list (it's definitely served its time), I would like us to collectively reconsider using the internal wiki.

There is information within the Wikimedia movement that can't be shared publicly. Some of that information has been shared on the internal wiki, but much has been kept confidential within the various Wikimedia organisations that now exist. I think there's a lot of benefit to sharing more of that information in a confidential fashion on an internal wiki, and that we should start doing that much more than we're currently doing.

Some examples of what I mean here are:
# Agreements, particularly those with global impact, and/or where they affect more than one Wikimedia organisation. Part of the recent Monmouthpedia/Gibraltarpedia situation was caused by a lack of transparency about who had signed what agreements, and when they had been signed - if these had all been shared on an internal wiki then some of this could have been avoided. There's also a lot of experience now with existing agreements that could be reused when new agreements are being written, e.g. for Wikimedians in Residences. Sadly, not all of these can be made publicly available (or at least, they haven't been to date).
# Press releases. When there's an upcoming significant press release from a Wikimedia organisation, then it should be good practice to share it with the other movement partners prior to its release, so that they are aware of it, can provide feedback, and can plan around it. Some of this already happens on wmfcc-l, but not consistently - much more could be done here.
# Domain names. There is a list of these on internal already, which is actually being maintained by some people. Tackling squatted domain names and keeping track of who owns what is a global problem that should be done collaboratively, but in confidence, rather than just by individual organisations.
# Contact information for the various organisations. Some of this can be done publicly, but not all, and it would be good to have a central place for this information anyway.
# Notices of sensitive activities. E.g. if there's an upcoming risk of law suits, infrastructure difficulties within organisations, etc. then it would be good to be able to share these and ask for help without publishing them to the world at the same time. That doesn't need a mailing list - it can be done on a wiki.
# … and I'm sure there's more examples that can go here, this isn't trying to be a complete list!

So, rather than close the internal wiki, I'd like to propose a radical redesign and repurposing of it. Is there the interest and willingness in the WMF and the chapters to share such information with each other?

Thanks,
Mike
(Note: this is a personal viewpoint, not necessarily that of WMUK.)


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Proposal to use the internal wiki more

Federico Leva (Nemo)
FYI, list of private wikis:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_wikis#Private_wikis
There are 27 private wikis hosted by the WMF, of which 15 for WMF
internal organisation (including committees) and 3 for more general
Wikimedia matters.

Nemo

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Proposal to use the internal wiki more

Michael Peel-4

On 3 Apr 2013, at 12:40, "Federico Leva (Nemo)" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> FYI, list of private wikis: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_wikis#Private_wikis
> There are 27 private wikis hosted by the WMF, of which 15 for WMF internal organisation (including committees) and 3 for more general Wikimedia matters.

Thanks Nemo - that's a very useful link. It's good to see that there's a number of "merge w/ internal" comments/suggestions there, which would make a lot of sense to me.

Thanks,
Mike
(Personal viewpoint)


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Proposal to use the internal wiki more

Thomas Dalton
In reply to this post by Michael Peel-4
On Apr 3, 2013 11:34 AM, "Michael Peel" <[hidden email]>
wrote:
>
> # Agreements, particularly those with global impact, and/or where they
affect more than one Wikimedia organisation. Part of the recent
Monmouthpedia/Gibraltarpedia situation was caused by a lack of transparency
about who had signed what agreements, and when they had been signed - if
these had all been shared on an internal wiki then some of this could have
been avoided. There's also a lot of experience now with existing agreements
that could be reused when new agreements are being written, e.g. for
Wikimedians in Residences. Sadly, not all of these can be made publicly
available (or at least, they haven't been to date).

I'd like to see that kind of thing made public. There are rarely good
reasons not to other than vague expectations that they be private based on
what other people do.

> # Press releases. When there's an upcoming significant press release from
a Wikimedia organisation, then it should be good practice to share it with
the other movement partners prior to its release, so that they are aware of
it, can provide feedback, and can plan around it. Some of this already
happens on wmfcc-l, but not consistently - much more could be done here.

wmfcc-l sounds like the right venue to me. Pre-publication press release
are transient things, so a mailing list works well. Wikis are better for
long term storage of information.

> # Domain names. There is a list of these on internal already, which is
actually being maintained by some people. Tackling squatted domain names
and keeping track of who owns what is a global problem that should be done
collaboratively, but in confidence, rather than just by individual
organisations.

A proper domain name policy making clear who should own what is what is
needed there. Having domain names owned by random people is the problem,
not the lack of a list of those random people.

> # Contact information for the various organisations. Some of this can be
done publicly, but not all, and it would be good to have a central place
for this information anyway.

All organisations should have public contact details... We're not a secret
society...

> # Notices of sensitive activities. E.g. if there's an upcoming risk of
law suits, infrastructure difficulties within organisations, etc. then it
would be good to be able to share these and ask for help without publishing
them to the world at the same time. That doesn't need a mailing list - it
can be done on a wiki.

Again, this is transient so is better suited to a mailing list.

I think internal-l has a purpose, but the internal wiki was abandoned long
long ago because it wasn't actually useful. I once had a go at cleaning up
the wiki (never did finish) and pretty much everything on there was several
years out of date (and that was about 3 years ago - it's hardly been edited
since).
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Proposal to use the internal wiki more

Charles Andrès-2
In reply to this post by Michael Peel-4
Thanks Mike,

I'm very much in favor of a redesign, with a reset of internal subscribers.

What about a session during wikimedia conf in Milan about improving tools for communication within the movement partners?

Charles

Le 3 avr. 2013 à 12:34, Michael Peel <[hidden email]> a écrit :

> Hi all,
>
> There's currently a proposal on the internal mailing list to close it, as well as the internal wiki. Although I don't disagree with closing the internal-l mailing list (it's definitely served its time), I would like us to collectively reconsider using the internal wiki.
>
> There is information within the Wikimedia movement that can't be shared publicly. Some of that information has been shared on the internal wiki, but much has been kept confidential within the various Wikimedia organisations that now exist. I think there's a lot of benefit to sharing more of that information in a confidential fashion on an internal wiki, and that we should start doing that much more than we're currently doing.
>
> Some examples of what I mean here are:
> # Agreements, particularly those with global impact, and/or where they affect more than one Wikimedia organisation. Part of the recent Monmouthpedia/Gibraltarpedia situation was caused by a lack of transparency about who had signed what agreements, and when they had been signed - if these had all been shared on an internal wiki then some of this could have been avoided. There's also a lot of experience now with existing agreements that could be reused when new agreements are being written, e.g. for Wikimedians in Residences. Sadly, not all of these can be made publicly available (or at least, they haven't been to date).
> # Press releases. When there's an upcoming significant press release from a Wikimedia organisation, then it should be good practice to share it with the other movement partners prior to its release, so that they are aware of it, can provide feedback, and can plan around it. Some of this already happens on wmfcc-l, but not consistently - much more could be done here.
> # Domain names. There is a list of these on internal already, which is actually being maintained by some people. Tackling squatted domain names and keeping track of who owns what is a global problem that should be done collaboratively, but in confidence, rather than just by individual organisations.
> # Contact information for the various organisations. Some of this can be done publicly, but not all, and it would be good to have a central place for this information anyway.
> # Notices of sensitive activities. E.g. if there's an upcoming risk of law suits, infrastructure difficulties within organisations, etc. then it would be good to be able to share these and ask for help without publishing them to the world at the same time. That doesn't need a mailing list - it can be done on a wiki.
> # … and I'm sure there's more examples that can go here, this isn't trying to be a complete list!
>
> So, rather than close the internal wiki, I'd like to propose a radical redesign and repurposing of it. Is there the interest and willingness in the WMF and the chapters to share such information with each other?
>
> Thanks,
> Mike
> (Note: this is a personal viewpoint, not necessarily that of WMUK.)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Proposal to use the internal wiki more

Federico Leva (Nemo)
In reply to this post by Michael Peel-4
Michael Peel, 03/04/2013 12:43:
> Thanks Nemo - that's a very useful link. It's good to see that there's a number of "merge w/ internal" comments/suggestions there, which would make a lot of sense to me.

Disclaimer: I didn't add those notes. :)

Second technical note: a merge from a private wiki to another is very
simple, because you don't have to check for confidentiality.
For small wikis without files it's just a matter of Special:Export and
Special:Import by a user with sufficient rights. Pages can be imported
into a new namespace to avoid conflicts and to add namespace-specific
user permissions if needed. Sysadmins are able to do it right, the only
missing piece being the logs; it was recently done with wikitech-old
merged into http://wikitech.wikimedia.org .

Nemo

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Proposal to use the internal wiki more

Thomas Dalton
On Apr 3, 2013 12:07 PM, "Federico Leva (Nemo)" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Second technical note: a merge from a private wiki to another is very
simple, because you don't have to check for confidentiality

That's not true. Just because it is private doesn't mean it is restricted
to the same people.

Things on a private wiki shouldn't be shared more widely without
consultation than the people that posted them could have reasonably
expected when they posted them.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Proposal to use the internal wiki more

Federico Leva (Nemo)
Thomas Dalton, 03/04/2013 13:12:

> On Apr 3, 2013 12:07 PM, "Federico Leva (Nemo)" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Second technical note: a merge from a private wiki to another is very
> simple, because you don't have to check for confidentiality
>
> That's not true. Just because it is private doesn't mean it is restricted
> to the same people.
>
> Things on a private wiki shouldn't be shared more widely without
> consultation than the people that posted them could have reasonably
> expected when they posted them.

May be, or may be not. (Members of internalwiki change constantly, so
e.g. there's no way I could know who has had access to what I wrote
there 5 years ago. I don't remember being consulted about every new user
created there after I got myself removed.)
At any rate, if you're moving content to another restricted wiki with
trusted members, you don't have to worry about private stuff being
published by mistake forever: if a mistake happens, you just have to
delete it. Finally, namespaces can take care of ensuring that stuff
keeps being restricted to the same groups as usual, if really needed.

Nemo

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Proposal to use the internal wiki more

mathieu lovato stumpf guntz
In reply to this post by Michael Peel-4
Le 2013-04-03 12:34, Michael Peel a écrit :

> # Agreements, particularly those with global impact, and/or where
> they affect more than one Wikimedia organisation. Part of the recent
> Monmouthpedia/Gibraltarpedia situation was caused by a lack of
> transparency about who had signed what agreements, and when they had
> been signed - if these had all been shared on an internal wiki then
> some of this could have been avoided. There's also a lot of
> experience
> now with existing agreements that could be reused when new agreements
> are being written, e.g. for Wikimedians in Residences. Sadly, not all
> of these can be made publicly available (or at least, they haven't
> been to date).

Can you provide more information on this case? I never heard about
Monmouthpedia/Gibraltarpedia despite they had a "global impact".

Would anyone be kind enough to explain me what kind of secret stuff we
are talking about?

--
Association Culture-Libre
http://www.culture-libre.org/

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Proposal to use the internal wiki more

Craig Franklin
In reply to this post by Federico Leva (Nemo)
I must confess, I have access to two of those "general" private wikis but
very seldom use them all, which probably indicates that in their current
form they don't serve much purpose.  So bravo to Michael for raising the
issue to see if we can squeeze some more function out of them!  I'm
intruiged by "noboard_chapterswikimedia" though - what is this for?

To those wondering what sort of mysterious secrets are held on them, the
answer is "not much interesting".  Mainly contact details and a
semi-out-of-date listing for the internal-l mailing list, as far as I can
see.

Cheers,
Craig Franklin


On 3 April 2013 20:40, Federico Leva (Nemo) <[hidden email]> wrote:

> FYI, list of private wikis: https://meta.wikimedia.org/**
> wiki/Wikimedia_wikis#Private_**wikis<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_wikis#Private_wikis>
> There are 27 private wikis hosted by the WMF, of which 15 for WMF internal
> organisation (including committees) and 3 for more general Wikimedia
> matters.
>
> Nemo
>
>
> ______________________________**_________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email].**org <[hidden email]>
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l<https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Proposal to use the internal wiki more

Federico Leva (Nemo)
Craig Franklin, 03/04/2013 14:18:
> I must confess, I have access to two of those "general" private wikis but
> very seldom use them all, which probably indicates that in their current
> form they don't serve much purpose.  So bravo to Michael for raising the
> issue to see if we can squeeze some more function out of them!  I'm
> intruiged by "noboard_chapterswikimedia" though - what is this for?

That's just the private wiki for the WMNO board. It will probably be
renamed to a domain other than noboard.chapters.wikimedia.org because it
breaks SSL certificates.

Nemo

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Proposal to use the internal wiki more

Thomas Dalton
In reply to this post by Federico Leva (Nemo)
On Apr 3, 2013 12:27 PM, "Federico Leva (Nemo)" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> May be, or may be not. (Members of internalwiki change constantly, so
e.g. there's no way I could know who has had access to what I wrote there 5
years ago. I don't remember being consulted about every new user created
there after I got myself removed.)

But you knew the basis on which internal access is determined and that
hasn't changed. You knew when you posted stuff there that new people would
continue to be added, but could reasonably expect that it would continue to
be restricted to the same kind of people as it was restricted to at the
time, even if the actual people themselves changed.

If it was decided to open up internal more widely, as has been discussed
from time to time, it would be necessary to either seek permission from
people or, more simply, delete things (or move them to a closed wiki that
is still restricted). That has generally been part of any discussions on
the subject.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Proposal to use the internal wiki more

Federico Leva (Nemo)
Thomas Dalton, 03/04/2013 16:03:

> On Apr 3, 2013 12:27 PM, "Federico Leva (Nemo)" <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>  >
>  > May be, or may be not. (Members of internalwiki change constantly, so
> e.g. there's no way I could know who has had access to what I wrote
> there 5 years ago. I don't remember being consulted about every new user
> created there after I got myself removed.)
>
> But you knew the basis on which internal access is determined and that
> hasn't changed.

Not true. It changed.

> You knew when you posted stuff there that new people
> would continue to be added, but could reasonably expect that it would
> continue to be restricted to the same kind of people as it was
> restricted to at the time, even if the actual people themselves changed.
>
> If it was decided to open up internal more widely, as has been discussed
> from time to time, it would be necessary to either seek permission from
> people or, more simply, delete things (or move them to a closed wiki
> that is still restricted). That has generally been part of any
> discussions on the subject.
>

Not true. It was expanded and nobody asked my opinion. :)

Nemo

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Proposal to use the internal wiki more

Thomas Dalton
On Apr 3, 2013 3:43 PM, "Federico Leva (Nemo)" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> But you knew the basis on which internal access is determined and that
>> hasn't changed.
>
>
> Not true. It changed.

Membership is still determined according to the WMF board's resolution from
2006. How long ago were you on there?
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Proposal to use the internal wiki more

Nathan Awrich
This back and forth is tangential to Mike's proposal. Maybe make it a
separate thread?

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Proposal to use the internal wiki more

Sue Gardner-2
In reply to this post by Michael Peel-4
On 3 April 2013 03:34, Michael Peel <[hidden email]> wrote:
> So, rather than close the internal wiki, I'd like to propose a radical redesign and repurposing of it. Is there the interest and willingness in the WMF and the chapters to share such information with each other?

I'd argue against this. From the perspective of the Wikimedia
Foundation, I would rather staff bias towards putting information on
public wikis wherever possible, and I'd worry that staff energy going
into updating a closed private wiki would by necessity pull focus from
public work. I'd argue for closing both the internal wiki and the
internal mailing list: IMO there's nothing on either that needs to be
confidential.

Thanks,
Sue

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Proposal to use the internal wiki more

Fred Bauder-2
> On 3 April 2013 03:34, Michael Peel <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>> So, rather than close the internal wiki, I'd like to propose a radical
>> redesign and repurposing of it. Is there the interest and willingness
>> in the WMF and the chapters to share such information with each other?
>
> I'd argue against this. From the perspective of the Wikimedia
> Foundation, I would rather staff bias towards putting information on
> public wikis wherever possible, and I'd worry that staff energy going
> into updating a closed private wiki would by necessity pull focus from
> public work. I'd argue for closing both the internal wiki and the
> internal mailing list: IMO there's nothing on either that needs to be
> confidential.
>
> Thanks,
> Sue

Yes, our work needs to be pubic and accessible.

Fred Bauder USA


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Proposal to use the internal wiki more

Michael Peel-4
In reply to this post by Sue Gardner-2


On 3 Apr 2013, at 19:46, Sue Gardner <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 3 April 2013 03:34, Michael Peel <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> So, rather than close the internal wiki, I'd like to propose a radical redesign and repurposing of it. Is there the interest and willingness in the WMF and the chapters to share such information with each other?
>
> I'd argue against this. From the perspective of the Wikimedia
> Foundation, I would rather staff bias towards putting information on
> public wikis wherever possible, and I'd worry that staff energy going
> into updating a closed private wiki would by necessity pull focus from
> public work. I'd argue for closing both the internal wiki and the
> internal mailing list: IMO there's nothing on either that needs to be
> confidential.

Would you be willing to close down the WMF office wiki and list at the same time, then?

Thanks,
Mike
(From mobile)
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Proposal to use the internal wiki more

phoebe ayers-3
On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 11:08 AM, Michael Peel <[hidden email]
> wrote:

>
>
> On 3 Apr 2013, at 19:46, Sue Gardner <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On 3 April 2013 03:34, Michael Peel <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >> So, rather than close the internal wiki, I'd like to propose a radical
> redesign and repurposing of it. Is there the interest and willingness in
> the WMF and the chapters to share such information with each other?
> >
> > I'd argue against this. From the perspective of the Wikimedia
> > Foundation, I would rather staff bias towards putting information on
> > public wikis wherever possible, and I'd worry that staff energy going
> > into updating a closed private wiki would by necessity pull focus from
> > public work. I'd argue for closing both the internal wiki and the
> > internal mailing list: IMO there's nothing on either that needs to be
> > confidential.
>
> Would you be willing to close down the WMF office wiki and list at the
> same time, then?
>
> Thanks,
> Mike
> (From mobile)
>

You're being snarky, but I am going to take this as a good-faith
question....

I have access to the office wiki, left-over from being a board member,
though I do not edit there and have only accessed it a couple of times over
the years. I think I can safely say without violating confidentiality that
it is mainly used as a tool to run a discrete, physical, boring office. It
is where you will find things like staff phone numbers, info on the
employee health plans, how to send to the office printers, and how to
submit an expense report.

As on internal, there's also lots of outdated stuff, like old notes from
2008 staff meetings; there are scratchpad idea pages that probably could be
elsewhere, and there are some pages about department functions and project
drafts that I'm sure no one would mind being on meta, but much of the
interesting stuff is public (the annual plan, the communications calendar),
and as far as I can see with a quick scan there are not large-scale
discussions happening there.

So, back to the start of the thread: using a wiki effectively does seem
like a scoping question, yes, and I think internal (and any other
internal/private wiki) would benefit from specific scoping like Mike
proposes; his suggestions seem reasonable to me. I think I can also say
without violating confidentiality that almost all of the mail to the
internal list in the last few months has not been discussion focused, but
rather has been notices of chapter board elections, meetings and reports,
and I would love to see all that traffic be public (even if it's on a
separate list so not everyone has to get the notices if they're not
interested) -- there's nothing inherently confidential about it, and it
would be nice for that info to be easily findable.

-- phoebe
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Proposal to use the internal wiki more

Markus Glaser-2
In reply to this post by Charles Andrès-2
Charles,

I'd very much like to see such a session at Wikimedia conf. Just today
we had a situation in wca where it was not clear where relevant
information about a topic is to be found.

Ziko proposed a session on "Communications internally and within the
movement - reaching the right people efficiently". Maybe we could do a
workshop afterwards? Would you be willing to take a lead on this?

Best,
Markus

Am 03.04.2013 13:03, schrieb Charles Andres:

> Thanks Mike,
>
> I'm very much in favor of a redesign, with a reset of internal subscribers.
>
> What about a session during wikimedia conf in Milan about improving tools for communication within the movement partners?
>
> Charles
>
> Le 3 avr. 2013 à 12:34, Michael Peel <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> There's currently a proposal on the internal mailing list to close it, as well as the internal wiki. Although I don't disagree with closing the internal-l mailing list (it's definitely served its time), I would like us to collectively reconsider using the internal wiki.
>>
>> There is information within the Wikimedia movement that can't be shared publicly. Some of that information has been shared on the internal wiki, but much has been kept confidential within the various Wikimedia organisations that now exist. I think there's a lot of benefit to sharing more of that information in a confidential fashion on an internal wiki, and that we should start doing that much more than we're currently doing.
>>
>> Some examples of what I mean here are:
>> # Agreements, particularly those with global impact, and/or where they affect more than one Wikimedia organisation. Part of the recent Monmouthpedia/Gibraltarpedia situation was caused by a lack of transparency about who had signed what agreements, and when they had been signed - if these had all been shared on an internal wiki then some of this could have been avoided. There's also a lot of experience now with existing agreements that could be reused when new agreements are being written, e.g. for Wikimedians in Residences. Sadly, not all of these can be made publicly available (or at least, they haven't been to date).
>> # Press releases. When there's an upcoming significant press release from a Wikimedia organisation, then it should be good practice to share it with the other movement partners prior to its release, so that they are aware of it, can provide feedback, and can plan around it. Some of this already happens on wmfcc-l, but not consistently - much more could be done here.
>> # Domain names. There is a list of these on internal already, which is actually being maintained by some people. Tackling squatted domain names and keeping track of who owns what is a global problem that should be done collaboratively, but in confidence, rather than just by individual organisations.
>> # Contact information for the various organisations. Some of this can be done publicly, but not all, and it would be good to have a central place for this information anyway.
>> # Notices of sensitive activities. E.g. if there's an upcoming risk of law suits, infrastructure difficulties within organisations, etc. then it would be good to be able to share these and ask for help without publishing them to the world at the same time. That doesn't need a mailing list - it can be done on a wiki.
>> # … and I'm sure there's more examples that can go here, this isn't trying to be a complete list!
>>
>> So, rather than close the internal wiki, I'd like to propose a radical redesign and repurposing of it. Is there the interest and willingness in the WMF and the chapters to share such information with each other?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Mike
>> (Note: this is a personal viewpoint, not necessarily that of WMUK.)
>>
>>
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--
Markus Glaser
WCA Council Member (WMDE)
Wikimedia Deutschland e.V.


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