[Wikimedia-l] Questions for the Board post-Wikimania

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[Wikimedia-l] Questions for the Board post-Wikimania

Steven Walling-3
Hey all,

During Wikimania's Q&A panel, the Board lamented that, as always, they did
not have enough time to answer all the questions from the audience and
posted beforehand on-wiki. They did say they were accessible to follow up
with on unanswered questions though, so I am taking this opportunity to
start an open thread.

The question I am personally interested in, I posted on the Wikimania wiki
page,[1] and it's...

"The 2013-14 Annual Plan allocates 40% of the Wikimedia Foundation budget
and 59% of the staffing to engineering and product development. However, it
seems that few of Board members have professional expertise in theses areas
(compared to previous years and in general). Does the Board feel it has the
necessary expertise to lead the Foundation in this area? Would the Board
consider recruiting expert seats with more experience in engineering and
product development?"

There are several other excellent questions posted on-wiki as well. I know
people are still traveling and likely jet-lagged even if they're home, so I
am in no huge hurry to get an answer. Thanks to the Board in advance. :-)

--
Steven Walling
https://wikimediafoundation.org/

1. https://wikimania2013.wikimedia.org/wiki/WMF_Board_Q%26A
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Questions for the Board post-Wikimania

phoebe ayers-3
On Aug 15, 2013 4:53 AM, "Steven Walling" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hey all,
>
> During Wikimania's Q&A panel, the Board lamented that, as always, they did
> not have enough time to answer all the questions from the audience and
> posted beforehand on-wiki. They did say they were accessible to follow up
> with on unanswered questions though, so I am taking this opportunity to
> start an open thread.
>
> The question I am personally interested in, I posted on the Wikimania wiki
> page,[1] and it's...
>
> "The 2013-14 Annual Plan allocates 40% of the Wikimedia Foundation budget
> and 59% of the staffing to engineering and product development. However, it
> seems that few of Board members have professional expertise in theses areas
> (compared to previous years and in general). Does the Board feel it has the
> necessary expertise to lead the Foundation in this area? Would the Board
> consider recruiting expert seats with more experience in engineering and
> product development?"


Thanks Steven!

Answering for myself (and only myself) I am in two minds about this
question.  On the one hand, yes, of course engineering is a core activity
for us - well over half, as you point out - and I wish it was an area that
was better represented on the board. I do think we should pay attention to
that when recruiting expert seats, and I do also wish our own dev community
was better represented in (all kinds of) governance.

On the other hand, I think the main contribution that recruiting for this
would likely bring is helping the board stay more focused on tech. No one
person is going to be able to instantly understand all our projects --
someone with a managerial background at another shop would have to rethink
their assumptions, as chances are excellent that whatever products they'd
worked on, they won't be as multilingual or community focused as ours.  And
someone from our own tech community would have the same challenge all of
our community trustees do, of having to relearn their relationship to
Wikimedia and balance many competing interests. So while yes, I think as a
board we should pay more attention to our overall technical landscape, I
think that we can push ourselves to do this at a governance level without
having individual specific hands-on expertise (similarly, just because
Kat's now left the board doesn't mean we're going to stop getting legal
updates and making that area as a priority). For instance, Erik's been
giving some very helpful visual editor updates to the board recently,
similar to his public emails; I hope that kind of ongoing update will help
both the board & senior staff reflect on and plan our activities.

So I'd like to back up a little bit and ask you and the community at large,
and especially the engineering community, what we need to solve for. What
challenges aren't we meeting? What strategic questions should we tackle?
What philosophical and/or strategic support does the tech community want to
see from the board?

For instance: in the past we've set our highest-level priority at Wikimedia
as recruiting and keeping more editors, which has led pretty directly to
things like E3, mobile editing, and the visual editor being prioritized.
But of course there's a lot of other engineering & product areas to think
about, everything from building features for existing editors to disaster
planning in ops to supporting the staff + volunteer dev community (I'm
quite pleased, incidentally, to see new 3rd-party mediawiki projects;
that's been a gap for a long time).

And lastly of course what's been on everyone's mind lately is we must
continue to try to figure out the best way to develop and roll out products
in our complex, opinionated, multilingual community. To be frank, I don't
know what the the best role for the board is in this process. I try to be
careful about keeping my public comments to a minimum when tech debates are
raging, as I think all the trustees do, because it's usually just not
helpful to randomly weigh in. Does that mean developers feel unsupported by
the board? That would be an unfortunate side effect of trying not to
overstep our role...

best,

Phoebe
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Questions for the Board post-Wikimania

Bishakha Datta
In reply to this post by Steven Walling-3
On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 2:22 AM, Steven Walling <[hidden email]>wrote:

> Hey all,
>
> During Wikimania's Q&A panel, the Board lamented that, as always, they did
> not have enough time to answer all the questions from the audience and
> posted beforehand on-wiki. They did say they were accessible to follow up
> with on unanswered questions though, so I am taking this opportunity to
> start an open thread.
>
> The question I am personally interested in, I posted on the Wikimania wiki
> page,[1] and it's...
>
> "The 2013-14 Annual Plan allocates 40% of the Wikimedia Foundation budget
> and 59% of the staffing to engineering and product development. However, it
> seems that few of Board members have professional expertise in theses areas
> (compared to previous years and in general). Does the Board feel it has the
> necessary expertise to lead the Foundation in this area? Would the Board
> consider recruiting expert seats with more experience in engineering and
> product development?"
>

Dear Steven,

This is a good question and I largely agree with Phoebe. In June 2012, the
then board did an exercise where we tried to identify missing board skills.

As part of the Board Governance Committee's aim of increasing board
transparency while retaining the privacy that we need to carry out our work
effectively, this has now been posted at:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Board_skills_matrix_2012

Keep in mind that this is a year old. Even so, hope it provides some
overall context and a few indirect glimmers into answering the question
that you posed.

Needless to say, a similar matrix done now may yield somewhat different
results.

Best
Bishakha
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Questions for the Board post-Wikimania

Federico Leva (Nemo)
In reply to this post by phoebe ayers-3
phoebe ayers, 15/08/2013 12:26:
> And lastly of course what's been on everyone's mind lately is we must
> continue to try to figure out the best way to develop and roll out products
> in our complex, opinionated, multilingual community. To be frank, I don't
> know what the the best role for the board is in this process. I try to be
> careful about keeping my public comments to a minimum when tech debates are
> raging, as I think all the trustees do, because it's usually just not
> helpful to randomly weigh in. Does that mean developers feel unsupported by
> the board? That would be an unfortunate side effect of trying not to
> overstep our role...

 From a Wikimedia projects point of view, what I'd rather like to know
is how the annual plan ends up containing some specific technical
goals/products. This is for sure something under the board's
responsibility as the board approves the plan, however – just we don't
know absolutely anything in general on how the annual plan is produced
and why it is as it is – it's not clear who proposes, who reviews and
who actually decides what ends up in the plan, not to speak of the
rationale. Does the board have any role in shaping the engineering goals
as defined by the annual plan, apart from the final rubberstamping in a
yes/no vote following some two weeks of discussion out of several months
of mysterious drafting?

Neom

P.s.: Generic questions to the board on this list are usually
ignored/missed, unless [sometimes] when they are in reply to something
posted on behalf of the board; in theory I guess the place for such
public questions would be https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/BN which
offers some permanency, but has never been really used yet.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Questions for the Board post-Wikimania

phoebe ayers-3
On Sat, Aug 17, 2013 at 2:17 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) <[hidden email]>wrote:

> phoebe ayers, 15/08/2013 12:26:
>
>  And lastly of course what's been on everyone's mind lately is we must
>> continue to try to figure out the best way to develop and roll out
>> products
>> in our complex, opinionated, multilingual community. To be frank, I don't
>> know what the the best role for the board is in this process. I try to be
>> careful about keeping my public comments to a minimum when tech debates
>> are
>> raging, as I think all the trustees do, because it's usually just not
>> helpful to randomly weigh in. Does that mean developers feel unsupported
>> by
>> the board? That would be an unfortunate side effect of trying not to
>> overstep our role...
>>
>
> From a Wikimedia projects point of view, what I'd rather like to know is
> how the annual plan ends up containing some specific technical
> goals/products. This is for sure something under the board's responsibility
> as the board approves the plan, however – just we don't know absolutely
> anything in general on how the annual plan is produced and why it is as it
> is – it's not clear who proposes, who reviews and who actually decides what
> ends up in the plan, not to speak of the rationale. Does the board have any
> role in shaping the engineering goals as defined by the annual plan, apart
> from the final rubberstamping in a yes/no vote following some two weeks of
> discussion out of several months of mysterious drafting?
>

Hey, I'm hoping another trustee will jump in here since I wasn't involved
with the last annual plan (thanks to my gap year off the board). But it's a
good question. In general: the specific plan activities are written by the
staff; the board's influence is more on the level of approving the overall
balance and resourcing to different activities/goals (like how much do we
focus on product development vs. other development, etc.) And, the board
needs to see that the big issues (editor retention/keeping the sites
up/etc) are being addressed -- but how that happens is something we
generally leave to the staff's expertise.

-- phoebe


> P.s.: Generic questions to the board on this list are usually
> ignored/missed, unless [sometimes] when they are in reply to something
> posted on behalf of the board; in theory I guess the place for such public
> questions would be https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/BN which offers some
> permanency, but has never been really used yet.


Well, threads like this are fine; this came out of the Wikimania questions,
as Steven noted. We can certainly try to revive the board noticeboard too!
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Questions for the Board post-Wikimania

Quim Gil-2
In reply to this post by Steven Walling-3
On 08/14/2013 01:52 PM, Steven Walling wrote:
> Would the Board
> consider recruiting expert seats with more experience in engineering and
> product development?"

With or without expert seats, I believe the whole tech planning process
would improve if our tech volunteers (tech ambassadors?) would be more
involved since the beginning. This might mean a longer discussion, but
also more transparent and with a better community backing since the
beginning.

Moving some discussions early in the planning process might save a lot
more time and energy discussing months later, when prototypes and betas
start to show up. And by that time it could be the own tech ambassadors
the ones defending the plan they helped build.

Opinions are mine, etc.

--
Quim Gil
Technical Contributor Coordinator @ Wikimedia Foundation
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Qgil

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Questions for the Board post-Wikimania

Federico Leva (Nemo)
In reply to this post by phoebe ayers-3
phoebe ayers, 17/08/2013 17:49:

>     P.s.: Generic questions to the board on this list are usually
>     ignored/missed, unless [sometimes] when they are in reply to
>     something posted on behalf of the board; in theory I guess the place
>     for such public questions would be
>     https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/BN which offers some permanency, but
>     has never been really used yet.
>
>
> Well, threads like this are fine; this came out of the Wikimania
> questions, as Steven noted. We can certainly try to revive the board
> noticeboard too!

As a way to revive it, any trustee can pick an unanswered question from
the Wikimania wiki page and answer it there without polluting their
email. ;)

Nemo

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[Wikimedia-l] Internet.org and Wikipedia Zero ?

Leinonen Teemu
Hi,

Have you noticed the new internet.org initiative by Facebook, Samsung, Nokia, Qualcomm, Ericsson and MediaTek?

"Internet.org is a global partnership between technology leaders, nonprofits, local communities and experts who are working together to bring the internet to the two thirds of the world’s population that doesn’t have it".[1, 2]

Would it make sense for the WMF's Wikipedia Zero program to collaborate with this?

Any comments?

Best regards,

        - Teemu

[1] http://www.internet.org
[2] http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/21/technology/facebook-leads-an-effort-to-lower-barriers-to-internet-access.html



--------------------------------------------------
Teemu Leinonen
http://www2.uiah.fi/~tleinone/
+358 50 351 6796
Media Lab
http://mlab.uiah.fi
Aalto University
School of Arts, Design and Architecture
--------------------------------------------------


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Internet.org and Wikipedia Zero ?

Emmanuel Engelhart-5
I'm maybe too pessimistic, but I would be really surprised if this
project, at any time, really helps to provide an access (neutral) to the
Internet.

More probable: They will try to give a free/cheap access to a set of
their online services and so one do the same like AOL or MSN have tried
to do 15 years ago.

... or like we do with Wikipedia zero... but, to the contrary to this
alliance, Wikimedia has never claimed that they wanted to give access to
the Internet.

So, IMO, this whole story about internet.org stinks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oFXCXQpJXI

Emmanuel

Le 23/08/2013 10:25, Leinonen Teemu a écrit :

> Hi,
>
> Have you noticed the new internet.org initiative by Facebook, Samsung, Nokia, Qualcomm, Ericsson and MediaTek?
>
> "Internet.org is a global partnership between technology leaders, nonprofits, local communities and experts who are working together to bring the internet to the two thirds of the world’s population that doesn’t have it".[1, 2]
>
> Would it make sense for the WMF's Wikipedia Zero program to collaborate with this?
>
> Any comments?
>
> Best regards,
>
> - Teemu
>
> [1] http://www.internet.org
> [2] http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/21/technology/facebook-leads-an-effort-to-lower-barriers-to-internet-access.html

--
Kiwix - Wikipedia Offline & more
* Web: http://www.kiwix.org
* Twitter: https://twitter.com/KiwixOffline
* more: http://www.kiwix.org/wiki/Communication

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Internet.org and Wikipedia Zero ?

Kul Wadhwa
Emmanuel,

I have my concerns as well so we're watching how things unfold for now.
Perhaps to add to Teemu's question (If I could be so bold) how would
internet.org need to evolve to make it worth our time and effort to be
involved?

--Kul


On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 1:49 AM, Emmanuel Engelhart <[hidden email]>wrote:

> I'm maybe too pessimistic, but I would be really surprised if this
> project, at any time, really helps to provide an access (neutral) to the
> Internet.
>
> More probable: They will try to give a free/cheap access to a set of
> their online services and so one do the same like AOL or MSN have tried
> to do 15 years ago.
>
> ... or like we do with Wikipedia zero... but, to the contrary to this
> alliance, Wikimedia has never claimed that they wanted to give access to
> the Internet.
>
> So, IMO, this whole story about internet.org stinks.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oFXCXQpJXI
>
> Emmanuel
>
> Le 23/08/2013 10:25, Leinonen Teemu a écrit :
> > Hi,
> >
> > Have you noticed the new internet.org initiative by Facebook, Samsung,
> Nokia, Qualcomm, Ericsson and MediaTek?
> >
> > "Internet.org is a global partnership between technology leaders,
> nonprofits, local communities and experts who are working together to bring
> the internet to the two thirds of the world’s population that doesn’t have
> it".[1, 2]
> >
> > Would it make sense for the WMF's Wikipedia Zero program to collaborate
> with this?
> >
> > Any comments?
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> >       - Teemu
> >
> > [1] http://www.internet.org
> > [2]
> http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/21/technology/facebook-leads-an-effort-to-lower-barriers-to-internet-access.html
>
> --
> Kiwix - Wikipedia Offline & more
> * Web: http://www.kiwix.org
> * Twitter: https://twitter.com/KiwixOffline
> * more: http://www.kiwix.org/wiki/Communication
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>



--
Kul Wadhwa
Head of Mobile
Wikimedia Foundation
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Internet.org and Wikipedia Zero ?

Gerard Meijssen-3
Hoi,

All we need to do is what we already do: make our content available for
free. When we are really in their face that we bring neutral information to
everyone, everywhere how and why will they deny us?

Thanks,
      GerardM


On 23 August 2013 10:59, Kul Wadhwa <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Emmanuel,
>
> I have my concerns as well so we're watching how things unfold for now.
> Perhaps to add to Teemu's question (If I could be so bold) how would
> internet.org need to evolve to make it worth our time and effort to be
> involved?
>
> --Kul
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 1:49 AM, Emmanuel Engelhart <[hidden email]
> >wrote:
>
> > I'm maybe too pessimistic, but I would be really surprised if this
> > project, at any time, really helps to provide an access (neutral) to the
> > Internet.
> >
> > More probable: They will try to give a free/cheap access to a set of
> > their online services and so one do the same like AOL or MSN have tried
> > to do 15 years ago.
> >
> > ... or like we do with Wikipedia zero... but, to the contrary to this
> > alliance, Wikimedia has never claimed that they wanted to give access to
> > the Internet.
> >
> > So, IMO, this whole story about internet.org stinks.
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oFXCXQpJXI
> >
> > Emmanuel
> >
> > Le 23/08/2013 10:25, Leinonen Teemu a écrit :
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > Have you noticed the new internet.org initiative by Facebook, Samsung,
> > Nokia, Qualcomm, Ericsson and MediaTek?
> > >
> > > "Internet.org is a global partnership between technology leaders,
> > nonprofits, local communities and experts who are working together to
> bring
> > the internet to the two thirds of the world’s population that doesn’t
> have
> > it".[1, 2]
> > >
> > > Would it make sense for the WMF's Wikipedia Zero program to collaborate
> > with this?
> > >
> > > Any comments?
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > >
> > >       - Teemu
> > >
> > > [1] http://www.internet.org
> > > [2]
> >
> http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/21/technology/facebook-leads-an-effort-to-lower-barriers-to-internet-access.html
> >
> > --
> > Kiwix - Wikipedia Offline & more
> > * Web: http://www.kiwix.org
> > * Twitter: https://twitter.com/KiwixOffline
> > * more: http://www.kiwix.org/wiki/Communication
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Kul Wadhwa
> Head of Mobile
> Wikimedia Foundation
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Internet.org and Wikipedia Zero ?

Jens Best
I would suggest to keep distance to this wannabe-NGO which more or less
only exists to serve the interests of commercial players which mostly do *
not* stand for a free and open web.

internet.org is nothing what will serve the ideas and ideals of an internet
as it is represented also by Wikimedia. Don't believe the hype.

Best regards

Jens Best


2013/8/23 Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]>

> Hoi,
>
> All we need to do is what we already do: make our content available for
> free. When we are really in their face that we bring neutral information to
> everyone, everywhere how and why will they deny us?
>
> Thanks,
>       GerardM
>
>
> On 23 August 2013 10:59, Kul Wadhwa <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Emmanuel,
> >
> > I have my concerns as well so we're watching how things unfold for now.
> > Perhaps to add to Teemu's question (If I could be so bold) how would
> > internet.org need to evolve to make it worth our time and effort to be
> > involved?
> >
> > --Kul
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 1:49 AM, Emmanuel Engelhart <[hidden email]
> > >wrote:
> >
> > > I'm maybe too pessimistic, but I would be really surprised if this
> > > project, at any time, really helps to provide an access (neutral) to
> the
> > > Internet.
> > >
> > > More probable: They will try to give a free/cheap access to a set of
> > > their online services and so one do the same like AOL or MSN have tried
> > > to do 15 years ago.
> > >
> > > ... or like we do with Wikipedia zero... but, to the contrary to this
> > > alliance, Wikimedia has never claimed that they wanted to give access
> to
> > > the Internet.
> > >
> > > So, IMO, this whole story about internet.org stinks.
> > >
> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oFXCXQpJXI
> > >
> > > Emmanuel
> > >
> > > Le 23/08/2013 10:25, Leinonen Teemu a écrit :
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > Have you noticed the new internet.org initiative by Facebook,
> Samsung,
> > > Nokia, Qualcomm, Ericsson and MediaTek?
> > > >
> > > > "Internet.org is a global partnership between technology leaders,
> > > nonprofits, local communities and experts who are working together to
> > bring
> > > the internet to the two thirds of the world’s population that doesn’t
> > have
> > > it".[1, 2]
> > > >
> > > > Would it make sense for the WMF's Wikipedia Zero program to
> collaborate
> > > with this?
> > > >
> > > > Any comments?
> > > >
> > > > Best regards,
> > > >
> > > >       - Teemu
> > > >
> > > > [1] http://www.internet.org
> > > > [2]
> > >
> >
> http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/21/technology/facebook-leads-an-effort-to-lower-barriers-to-internet-access.html
> > >
> > > --
> > > Kiwix - Wikipedia Offline & more
> > > * Web: http://www.kiwix.org
> > > * Twitter: https://twitter.com/KiwixOffline
> > > * more: http://www.kiwix.org/wiki/Communication
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Kul Wadhwa
> > Head of Mobile
> > Wikimedia Foundation
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
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> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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--
--
Jens Best
Präsidium
Wikimedia Deutschland e.V.
web: http://www.wikimedia.de
mail: jens.best <http://goog_17221883>@wikimedia.de

Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V.
Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts
Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig
anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin,
Steuernummer 27/681/51985.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Internet.org and Wikipedia Zero ?

David Gerard-2
On 23 August 2013 10:28, Jens Best <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I would suggest to keep distance to this wannabe-NGO which more or less
> only exists to serve the interests of commercial players which mostly do *
> not* stand for a free and open web.
> internet.org is nothing what will serve the ideas and ideals of an internet
> as it is represented also by Wikimedia. Don't believe the hype.


I concur. Dig this:
http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/13/08/what-internetorgs-stirring-video-cut-from-the-kennedy-speech-it-quotes/278896/

Whatever these people are doing doesn't actually appear to be much to
do with what we're doing.


- d.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Internet.org and Wikipedia Zero ?

Emmanuel Engelhart-5
In reply to this post by Kul Wadhwa
Le 23/08/2013 10:59, Kul Wadhwa a écrit :
> I have my concerns as well so we're watching how things unfold for now.
> Perhaps to add to Teemu's question (If I could be so bold) how would
> internet.org need to evolve to make it worth our time and effort to be
> involved?

If what I fear becomes real, then I would be sad that our movement joins
such a dishonest project.

If they want to give access to a subset of Internet services and adapt
their communication (honesty about the product), then we face a dilemma.
A dilemna between our wish to give access to our content (tactical move)
and the one of having a free, neutral and un-clustered Internet
(strategical view)... Big discussions in view, but we already have done
it with Wikipedia zero and I know the WMF tends to be pragmatic in such
situations ;)

If they really want to help to give a neutral access to internet... then
this is really a dream we should be part of!

But, this is all about speculations...

I just wanted to explain why this launch doesn't sound well to my hears.
But I know nothing about their real intentions and concrete projects.
That's why, it's IMO urgent to wait... and see in which direction they
will make the next moves.

Emmanuel
--
Kiwix - Wikipedia Offline & more
* Web: http://www.kiwix.org
* Twitter: https://twitter.com/KiwixOffline
* more: http://www.kiwix.org/wiki/Communication

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Internet.org and Wikipedia Zero ?

Jens Best
Nothing good comes with people like Mark Zuckerberg or Peter Thiel, they
don't share our vision of a *really* free and open internet. So, actually,
Emmanuel, I couldn't care less which direction they gonna make their next
moves. It will all be a disguise of what they really attempt and with whom
they really cooperate.

It's time to realize that there isn't a shared vision of the web between
Silicon Valley and Wikimedia. Their words are empty. When they speak of
freedom, they speak of the freedom of money and control. Just because they
use the word "internet" they don't speak of the same thing we do.

Jens

2013/8/23 Emmanuel Engelhart <[hidden email]>

> Le 23/08/2013 10:59, Kul Wadhwa a écrit :
> > I have my concerns as well so we're watching how things unfold for now.
> > Perhaps to add to Teemu's question (If I could be so bold) how would
> > internet.org need to evolve to make it worth our time and effort to be
> > involved?
>
> If what I fear becomes real, then I would be sad that our movement joins
> such a dishonest project.
>
> If they want to give access to a subset of Internet services and adapt
> their communication (honesty about the product), then we face a dilemma.
> A dilemna between our wish to give access to our content (tactical move)
> and the one of having a free, neutral and un-clustered Internet
> (strategical view)... Big discussions in view, but we already have done
> it with Wikipedia zero and I know the WMF tends to be pragmatic in such
> situations ;)
>
> If they really want to help to give a neutral access to internet... then
> this is really a dream we should be part of!
>
> But, this is all about speculations...
>
> I just wanted to explain why this launch doesn't sound well to my hears.
> But I know nothing about their real intentions and concrete projects.
> That's why, it's IMO urgent to wait... and see in which direction they
> will make the next moves.
>
> Emmanuel
> --
> Kiwix - Wikipedia Offline & more
> * Web: http://www.kiwix.org
> * Twitter: https://twitter.com/KiwixOffline
> * more: http://www.kiwix.org/wiki/Communication
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>



--
--
Jens Best
Präsidium
Wikimedia Deutschland e.V.
web: http://www.wikimedia.de
mail: jens.best <http://goog_17221883>@wikimedia.de

Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V.
Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts
Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig
anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin,
Steuernummer 27/681/51985.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Internet.org and Wikipedia Zero ?

Gerard Meijssen-3
Hoi,
But when they provide the infrastructure that allows our content to be seen
by many more people, they do us a service.

In the end it is what we are about. Last thing I heard we were first of all
about getting the knowledge out there.
Thanks,
      GerardM


On 23 August 2013 12:14, Jens Best <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Nothing good comes with people like Mark Zuckerberg or Peter Thiel, they
> don't share our vision of a *really* free and open internet. So, actually,
> Emmanuel, I couldn't care less which direction they gonna make their next
> moves. It will all be a disguise of what they really attempt and with whom
> they really cooperate.
>
> It's time to realize that there isn't a shared vision of the web between
> Silicon Valley and Wikimedia. Their words are empty. When they speak of
> freedom, they speak of the freedom of money and control. Just because they
> use the word "internet" they don't speak of the same thing we do.
>
> Jens
>
> 2013/8/23 Emmanuel Engelhart <[hidden email]>
>
> > Le 23/08/2013 10:59, Kul Wadhwa a écrit :
> > > I have my concerns as well so we're watching how things unfold for now.
> > > Perhaps to add to Teemu's question (If I could be so bold) how would
> > > internet.org need to evolve to make it worth our time and effort to be
> > > involved?
> >
> > If what I fear becomes real, then I would be sad that our movement joins
> > such a dishonest project.
> >
> > If they want to give access to a subset of Internet services and adapt
> > their communication (honesty about the product), then we face a dilemma.
> > A dilemna between our wish to give access to our content (tactical move)
> > and the one of having a free, neutral and un-clustered Internet
> > (strategical view)... Big discussions in view, but we already have done
> > it with Wikipedia zero and I know the WMF tends to be pragmatic in such
> > situations ;)
> >
> > If they really want to help to give a neutral access to internet... then
> > this is really a dream we should be part of!
> >
> > But, this is all about speculations...
> >
> > I just wanted to explain why this launch doesn't sound well to my hears.
> > But I know nothing about their real intentions and concrete projects.
> > That's why, it's IMO urgent to wait... and see in which direction they
> > will make the next moves.
> >
> > Emmanuel
> > --
> > Kiwix - Wikipedia Offline & more
> > * Web: http://www.kiwix.org
> > * Twitter: https://twitter.com/KiwixOffline
> > * more: http://www.kiwix.org/wiki/Communication
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
>
>
>
> --
> --
> Jens Best
> Präsidium
> Wikimedia Deutschland e.V.
> web: http://www.wikimedia.de
> mail: jens.best <http://goog_17221883>@wikimedia.de
>
> Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V.
> Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts
> Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig
> anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin,
> Steuernummer 27/681/51985.
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Internet.org and Wikipedia Zero ?

Emilio J. Rodríguez-Posada
Looks like NSA has bought some new hard drives and needs moar data.


2013/8/23 Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]>

> Hoi,
> But when they provide the infrastructure that allows our content to be seen
> by many more people, they do us a service.
>
> In the end it is what we are about. Last thing I heard we were first of all
> about getting the knowledge out there.
> Thanks,
>       GerardM
>
>
> On 23 August 2013 12:14, Jens Best <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Nothing good comes with people like Mark Zuckerberg or Peter Thiel, they
> > don't share our vision of a *really* free and open internet. So,
> actually,
> > Emmanuel, I couldn't care less which direction they gonna make their next
> > moves. It will all be a disguise of what they really attempt and with
> whom
> > they really cooperate.
> >
> > It's time to realize that there isn't a shared vision of the web between
> > Silicon Valley and Wikimedia. Their words are empty. When they speak of
> > freedom, they speak of the freedom of money and control. Just because
> they
> > use the word "internet" they don't speak of the same thing we do.
> >
> > Jens
> >
> > 2013/8/23 Emmanuel Engelhart <[hidden email]>
> >
> > > Le 23/08/2013 10:59, Kul Wadhwa a écrit :
> > > > I have my concerns as well so we're watching how things unfold for
> now.
> > > > Perhaps to add to Teemu's question (If I could be so bold) how would
> > > > internet.org need to evolve to make it worth our time and effort to
> be
> > > > involved?
> > >
> > > If what I fear becomes real, then I would be sad that our movement
> joins
> > > such a dishonest project.
> > >
> > > If they want to give access to a subset of Internet services and adapt
> > > their communication (honesty about the product), then we face a
> dilemma.
> > > A dilemna between our wish to give access to our content (tactical
> move)
> > > and the one of having a free, neutral and un-clustered Internet
> > > (strategical view)... Big discussions in view, but we already have done
> > > it with Wikipedia zero and I know the WMF tends to be pragmatic in such
> > > situations ;)
> > >
> > > If they really want to help to give a neutral access to internet...
> then
> > > this is really a dream we should be part of!
> > >
> > > But, this is all about speculations...
> > >
> > > I just wanted to explain why this launch doesn't sound well to my
> hears.
> > > But I know nothing about their real intentions and concrete projects.
> > > That's why, it's IMO urgent to wait... and see in which direction they
> > > will make the next moves.
> > >
> > > Emmanuel
> > > --
> > > Kiwix - Wikipedia Offline & more
> > > * Web: http://www.kiwix.org
> > > * Twitter: https://twitter.com/KiwixOffline
> > > * more: http://www.kiwix.org/wiki/Communication
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > --
> > Jens Best
> > Präsidium
> > Wikimedia Deutschland e.V.
> > web: http://www.wikimedia.de
> > mail: jens.best <http://goog_17221883>@wikimedia.de
> >
> > Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V.
> > Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts
> > Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig
> > anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin,
> > Steuernummer 27/681/51985.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Internet.org and Wikipedia Zero ?

Gerard Meijssen-3
Hoi,
For your information ... an interview with Mr Zuggerberg... In my opinion
there is an opportunity as he is looking for dense information.. we are
really good at that :)
Thanks,
     Gerard

http://www.wired.com/business/2013/08/mark-zuckerberg-internet-org/


On 23 August 2013 14:38, Emilio J. Rodríguez-Posada <[hidden email]>wrote:

> Looks like NSA has bought some new hard drives and needs moar data.
>
>
> 2013/8/23 Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]>
>
> > Hoi,
> > But when they provide the infrastructure that allows our content to be
> seen
> > by many more people, they do us a service.
> >
> > In the end it is what we are about. Last thing I heard we were first of
> all
> > about getting the knowledge out there.
> > Thanks,
> >       GerardM
> >
> >
> > On 23 August 2013 12:14, Jens Best <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > Nothing good comes with people like Mark Zuckerberg or Peter Thiel,
> they
> > > don't share our vision of a *really* free and open internet. So,
> > actually,
> > > Emmanuel, I couldn't care less which direction they gonna make their
> next
> > > moves. It will all be a disguise of what they really attempt and with
> > whom
> > > they really cooperate.
> > >
> > > It's time to realize that there isn't a shared vision of the web
> between
> > > Silicon Valley and Wikimedia. Their words are empty. When they speak of
> > > freedom, they speak of the freedom of money and control. Just because
> > they
> > > use the word "internet" they don't speak of the same thing we do.
> > >
> > > Jens
> > >
> > > 2013/8/23 Emmanuel Engelhart <[hidden email]>
> > >
> > > > Le 23/08/2013 10:59, Kul Wadhwa a écrit :
> > > > > I have my concerns as well so we're watching how things unfold for
> > now.
> > > > > Perhaps to add to Teemu's question (If I could be so bold) how
> would
> > > > > internet.org need to evolve to make it worth our time and effort
> to
> > be
> > > > > involved?
> > > >
> > > > If what I fear becomes real, then I would be sad that our movement
> > joins
> > > > such a dishonest project.
> > > >
> > > > If they want to give access to a subset of Internet services and
> adapt
> > > > their communication (honesty about the product), then we face a
> > dilemma.
> > > > A dilemna between our wish to give access to our content (tactical
> > move)
> > > > and the one of having a free, neutral and un-clustered Internet
> > > > (strategical view)... Big discussions in view, but we already have
> done
> > > > it with Wikipedia zero and I know the WMF tends to be pragmatic in
> such
> > > > situations ;)
> > > >
> > > > If they really want to help to give a neutral access to internet...
> > then
> > > > this is really a dream we should be part of!
> > > >
> > > > But, this is all about speculations...
> > > >
> > > > I just wanted to explain why this launch doesn't sound well to my
> > hears.
> > > > But I know nothing about their real intentions and concrete projects.
> > > > That's why, it's IMO urgent to wait... and see in which direction
> they
> > > > will make the next moves.
> > > >
> > > > Emmanuel
> > > > --
> > > > Kiwix - Wikipedia Offline & more
> > > > * Web: http://www.kiwix.org
> > > > * Twitter: https://twitter.com/KiwixOffline
> > > > * more: http://www.kiwix.org/wiki/Communication
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > --
> > > Jens Best
> > > Präsidium
> > > Wikimedia Deutschland e.V.
> > > web: http://www.wikimedia.de
> > > mail: jens.best <http://goog_17221883>@wikimedia.de
> > >
> > > Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V.
> > > Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts
> > > Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig
> > > anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin,
> > > Steuernummer 27/681/51985.
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Internet.org and Wikipedia Zero ?

Ziko van Dijk-2
In reply to this post by Gerard Meijssen-3
Hear, hear.
Ziko

2013/8/23 Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]>

> Hoi,
> But when they provide the infrastructure that allows our content to be seen
> by many more people, they do us a service.
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Internet.org and Wikipedia Zero ?

Jens Best
In reply to this post by Gerard Meijssen-3
The internet Mr. Zuggerberg wants was nothing to do with the ideas of free
knowledge, online collaboration and open source as it is provided and
promoted by Wikimedia.

Don't believe the Hype. Even and especially if it is Hype 2.0.

Just because the Silicon Valley billionaires got caught with sleeping with
the NSA suddenly they push an "open internet for the world"-Idea to
distract everybody from the dark roots.

Wikimedia should stay far away from this crowd and its "initiatives". Maybe
in the future we should even get more distance between them (Facebook,
Google, etc.) and us.

Jens

2013/8/26 Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]>

> Hoi,
> For your information ... an interview with Mr Zuggerberg... In my opinion
> there is an opportunity as he is looking for dense information.. we are
> really good at that :)
> Thanks,
>      Gerard
>
> http://www.wired.com/business/2013/08/mark-zuckerberg-internet-org/
>
>
> On 23 August 2013 14:38, Emilio J. Rodríguez-Posada <[hidden email]
> >wrote:
>
> > Looks like NSA has bought some new hard drives and needs moar data.
> >
> >
> > 2013/8/23 Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]>
> >
> > > Hoi,
> > > But when they provide the infrastructure that allows our content to be
> > seen
> > > by many more people, they do us a service.
> > >
> > > In the end it is what we are about. Last thing I heard we were first of
> > all
> > > about getting the knowledge out there.
> > > Thanks,
> > >       GerardM
> > >
> > >
> > > On 23 August 2013 12:14, Jens Best <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Nothing good comes with people like Mark Zuckerberg or Peter Thiel,
> > they
> > > > don't share our vision of a *really* free and open internet. So,
> > > actually,
> > > > Emmanuel, I couldn't care less which direction they gonna make their
> > next
> > > > moves. It will all be a disguise of what they really attempt and with
> > > whom
> > > > they really cooperate.
> > > >
> > > > It's time to realize that there isn't a shared vision of the web
> > between
> > > > Silicon Valley and Wikimedia. Their words are empty. When they speak
> of
> > > > freedom, they speak of the freedom of money and control. Just because
> > > they
> > > > use the word "internet" they don't speak of the same thing we do.
> > > >
> > > > Jens
> > > >
> > > > 2013/8/23 Emmanuel Engelhart <[hidden email]>
> > > >
> > > > > Le 23/08/2013 10:59, Kul Wadhwa a écrit :
> > > > > > I have my concerns as well so we're watching how things unfold
> for
> > > now.
> > > > > > Perhaps to add to Teemu's question (If I could be so bold) how
> > would
> > > > > > internet.org need to evolve to make it worth our time and effort
> > to
> > > be
> > > > > > involved?
> > > > >
> > > > > If what I fear becomes real, then I would be sad that our movement
> > > joins
> > > > > such a dishonest project.
> > > > >
> > > > > If they want to give access to a subset of Internet services and
> > adapt
> > > > > their communication (honesty about the product), then we face a
> > > dilemma.
> > > > > A dilemna between our wish to give access to our content (tactical
> > > move)
> > > > > and the one of having a free, neutral and un-clustered Internet
> > > > > (strategical view)... Big discussions in view, but we already have
> > done
> > > > > it with Wikipedia zero and I know the WMF tends to be pragmatic in
> > such
> > > > > situations ;)
> > > > >
> > > > > If they really want to help to give a neutral access to internet...
> > > then
> > > > > this is really a dream we should be part of!
> > > > >
> > > > > But, this is all about speculations...
> > > > >
> > > > > I just wanted to explain why this launch doesn't sound well to my
> > > hears.
> > > > > But I know nothing about their real intentions and concrete
> projects.
> > > > > That's why, it's IMO urgent to wait... and see in which direction
> > they
> > > > > will make the next moves.
> > > > >
> > > > > Emmanuel
> > > > > --
> > > > > Kiwix - Wikipedia Offline & more
> > > > > * Web: http://www.kiwix.org
> > > > > * Twitter: https://twitter.com/KiwixOffline
> > > > > * more: http://www.kiwix.org/wiki/Communication
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
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> > > > --
> > > > --
> > > > Jens Best
> > > > Präsidium
> > > > Wikimedia Deutschland e.V.
> > > > web: http://www.wikimedia.de
> > > > mail: jens.best <http://goog_17221883>@wikimedia.de
> > > >
> > > > Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens
> e.V.
> > > > Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts
> > > > Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig
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--
--
Jens Best
Präsidium
Wikimedia Deutschland e.V.
web: http://www.wikimedia.de
mail: jens.best <http://goog_17221883>@wikimedia.de

Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V.
Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts
Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig
anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin,
Steuernummer 27/681/51985.
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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