[Wikimedia-l] Reducing the net cost of Wikimania

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[Wikimedia-l] Reducing the net cost of Wikimania

metasj
I found this the most interesting part of the recent IdeaLab discussion
about changing the Wikimania framework.
  https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IdeaLab/Towards_a_New_Wikimania

  "*The total spend by WMF for Wikimania 2014 in London and 2015 in Mexico,
including all travel, accommodations, scholarships, staff support and
direct conference expenses, was ~$1 million USD*"

This is a pity. Small grants to support a con is one thing, but this is too
much.

Please let's stop encouraging conferences that do not cover their own
costs. A good conference series pays for itself, including its scholarship
pool. There are plenty of communities our size or larger with wonderful,
regular conferences of hundreds or thousands of people, which break even or
turn a small profit.

FUDCons are an interesting case in point.  As I understand it, there was a
time when RedHat basically sponsored the events, with scholarships for all
active contributors and extensive grants. This was ok, but skewed
participation.  Then the lavish sponsorship stopped. Attendance dropped;
community members felt unloved. Then after a time, this passed, and
everyone attended again. (Perhaps a core Fedora contributor can describe
this more accurately!)

SJ
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Reducing the net cost of Wikimania

Gerard Meijssen-3
Hoi,
To quote a Wikipedia maxim .. "citation needed".  It is one thing to say
that something is costly and, it is. It is another to say that Wikimania is
expensive. It is expensive when it does not provide a value relative to
costs.

When you compare with Red Hat, you talk about professional people in
relation to Red Hat. This is not what our community is. They are volunteers
and while some have the money to pay their own way, this is certainly
dependant on where people are from. Given that we suck at supporting the
"global south", I am afraid that your thinking is in terms of money and not
in terms of value and lost sight what our community is.

The comparison with Red Hat and your point is flawed.
Thanks,
       GerardM

On 10 February 2016 at 06:06, Samuel Klein <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I found this the most interesting part of the recent IdeaLab discussion
> about changing the Wikimania framework.
>   https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IdeaLab/Towards_a_New_Wikimania
>
>   "*The total spend by WMF for Wikimania 2014 in London and 2015 in Mexico,
> including all travel, accommodations, scholarships, staff support and
> direct conference expenses, was ~$1 million USD*"
>
> This is a pity. Small grants to support a con is one thing, but this is too
> much.
>
> Please let's stop encouraging conferences that do not cover their own
> costs. A good conference series pays for itself, including its scholarship
> pool. There are plenty of communities our size or larger with wonderful,
> regular conferences of hundreds or thousands of people, which break even or
> turn a small profit.
>
> FUDCons are an interesting case in point.  As I understand it, there was a
> time when RedHat basically sponsored the events, with scholarships for all
> active contributors and extensive grants. This was ok, but skewed
> participation.  Then the lavish sponsorship stopped. Attendance dropped;
> community members felt unloved. Then after a time, this passed, and
> everyone attended again. (Perhaps a core Fedora contributor can describe
> this more accurately!)
>
> SJ
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Reducing the net cost of Wikimania

Pine W
From a US perspective, even here in the global north we have plenty of
students and middle-class participants for whom $1500 in travel, food and
lodging plus 5 days away from work, family, or school amounts to a
significant or impossible sacrifice.

Perhaps someone could tell us the statistics for how many people have
attended Wikimania each year who were not WMF employees, FDC or WMF Board
members, scholarship recipients, or financially sponsored by WMF affiliates
or WEF. Of those people who pay 100% of their own costs plus the cost of
admission tickets, my guess is that many live within a day's travel time by
train, car, or bus.

I would hypothesize that thematic conferences also have a low percentage of
people who pay 100% of their own costs, but that regional conferences which
have lower travel costs for the average attendee receive modestly higher
percentages of unsubsidized attendance.

It seems to me that WMF finacial support for conferences, including
regional and thematic conferences, will continue to be the norm.

Whether $1 million is appropriate for Wikimania and whether a more modest
budget would be appropriate and feasable are different questions that merit
careful reflection.

Pine
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Reducing the net cost of Wikimania

Gnangarra
While everyone keeps looking at the cost thats not the question we should
be asking, because even if the costs were reduced to 500,000, 100,00 or
even 10,000 ​that doesnt reflect the value we get from the in person
contacts, the global connections the sharing of experiences, learning of
concepts, even the moral support and reenergization that occurs.  When I
talk to people who have attended Wikimanias nobody says that was a waste of
my time, I learnt nothing, I wish I could get back those 5 days that is a
better indicator of its value to the community.




On 10 February 2016 at 17:13, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From a US perspective, even here in the global north we have plenty of
> students and middle-class participants for whom $1500 in travel, food and
> lodging plus 5 days away from work, family, or school amounts to a
> significant or impossible sacrifice.
>
> Perhaps someone could tell us the statistics for how many people have
> attended Wikimania each year who were not WMF employees, FDC or WMF Board
> members, scholarship recipients, or financially sponsored by WMF affiliates
> or WEF. Of those people who pay 100% of their own costs plus the cost of
> admission tickets, my guess is that many live within a day's travel time by
> train, car, or bus.
>
> I would hypothesize that thematic conferences also have a low percentage of
> people who pay 100% of their own costs, but that regional conferences which
> have lower travel costs for the average attendee receive modestly higher
> percentages of unsubsidized attendance.
>
> It seems to me that WMF finacial support for conferences, including
> regional and thematic conferences, will continue to be the norm.
>
> Whether $1 million is appropriate for Wikimania and whether a more modest
> budget would be appropriate and feasable are different questions that merit
> careful reflection.
>
> Pine
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>



--
GN.
President Wikimedia Australia
WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Reducing the net cost of Wikimania

Gerard Meijssen-3
In reply to this post by Pine W
Hoi,
Pine with all due respect, the USA is not the problem and English Wikipedia
has been overly subsidised, given way too much attention. Indeed having
more people from the USA attend Wikimania is not a good value proposition.
The USA and Britain is overrepresented as it is.
Thanks,
     GerardM

On 10 February 2016 at 10:13, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From a US perspective, even here in the global north we have plenty of
> students and middle-class participants for whom $1500 in travel, food and
> lodging plus 5 days away from work, family, or school amounts to a
> significant or impossible sacrifice.
>
> Perhaps someone could tell us the statistics for how many people have
> attended Wikimania each year who were not WMF employees, FDC or WMF Board
> members, scholarship recipients, or financially sponsored by WMF affiliates
> or WEF. Of those people who pay 100% of their own costs plus the cost of
> admission tickets, my guess is that many live within a day's travel time by
> train, car, or bus.
>
> I would hypothesize that thematic conferences also have a low percentage of
> people who pay 100% of their own costs, but that regional conferences which
> have lower travel costs for the average attendee receive modestly higher
> percentages of unsubsidized attendance.
>
> It seems to me that WMF finacial support for conferences, including
> regional and thematic conferences, will continue to be the norm.
>
> Whether $1 million is appropriate for Wikimania and whether a more modest
> budget would be appropriate and feasable are different questions that merit
> careful reflection.
>
> Pine
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Reducing the net cost of Wikimania

Tomasz Ganicz
In reply to this post by metasj
2016-02-10 6:06 GMT+01:00 Samuel Klein <[hidden email]>:

> FUDCons


Also it is hard to compare Wikimanias with FUDCons as it is
a) much  smaller (usually bo more than 200 attendees)
b) divided by regions - for example in 2015 there were 3 FUDCons
(Argentina, India, Spain) and 2 Flocks (NY and Kraków) -  so they are
rather like our Iberecop or CEE meetings than the global conferences.

And also Fedora developers have many potential sources of external funding
- mainly from IT companies which uses free software and want to apply for
their specific needs and for whom they quite often work.

But anyway, Fedora offers scholarships for attendees, see:

https://fedorahosted.org/fudcon-planning/wiki/FundingRequest


--
Tomek "Polimerek" Ganicz
http://pl.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Polimerek
http://www.ganicz.pl/poli/
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Reducing the net cost of Wikimania

Itzik - Wikimedia Israel
In reply to this post by metasj
If we want to talk about the cost of Wikimania it will be great if the WMF
and the local team will share the costs.

Until now Wikimania London didn't published anything:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2014/Budget

And also Mexico:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2015/Budget

Maybe I missed something, but it's strange that such discussion takes place
without a real budget breakdown. To summarize 2 huge event to "1$ million
USD" does not make sense.

Itzik



*Regards,Itzik Edri*
Chairperson, Wikimedia Israel
+972-(0)-54-5878078 | http://www.wikimedia.org.il
Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the
sum of all knowledge. That's our commitment!


On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 7:06 AM, Samuel Klein <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I found this the most interesting part of the recent IdeaLab discussion
> about changing the Wikimania framework.
>   https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IdeaLab/Towards_a_New_Wikimania
>
>   "*The total spend by WMF for Wikimania 2014 in London and 2015 in Mexico,
> including all travel, accommodations, scholarships, staff support and
> direct conference expenses, was ~$1 million USD*"
>
> This is a pity. Small grants to support a con is one thing, but this is too
> much.
>
> Please let's stop encouraging conferences that do not cover their own
> costs. A good conference series pays for itself, including its scholarship
> pool. There are plenty of communities our size or larger with wonderful,
> regular conferences of hundreds or thousands of people, which break even or
> turn a small profit.
>
> FUDCons are an interesting case in point.  As I understand it, there was a
> time when RedHat basically sponsored the events, with scholarships for all
> active contributors and extensive grants. This was ok, but skewed
> participation.  Then the lavish sponsorship stopped. Attendance dropped;
> community members felt unloved. Then after a time, this passed, and
> everyone attended again. (Perhaps a core Fedora contributor can describe
> this more accurately!)
>
> SJ
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Reducing the net cost of Wikimania

Andrew Lih
In reply to this post by Gerard Meijssen-3
GerardM,

As much as I agree with you on many things related to Wikimania, your
statement about en.wp and USA being “over subsidized” is off base.

For the last few years I’ve held my tongue as American applicants get a
fraction of 10% of all the funding for Wikimania scholarships. That’s
because 10% is allocated to all of North America, so US based folks compete
with Canadians for that small slice of the pie. Indeed, key community
members from the US could not afford to go to Wikimania, and did not,
because of the limited funding. We also do not have a strong chapter system
to make up for that shortcoming, where European chapters can, and do,
underwrite their local members with other funds.

I am not against the bulk of the scholarship money going to
underrepresented developing markets and giving new voices a chance to
attend. But I wanted to dispel the myth that Americans are always gorging
at the trough.

https://wikimania2013.wikimedia.org/wiki/Scholarships#Scholarship_selection_process
https://wikimania2014.wikimedia.org/wiki/Scholarships#Selection_process


-Andrew

On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 6:49 AM, Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hoi,
> Pine with all due respect, the USA is not the problem and English Wikipedia
> has been overly subsidised, given way too much attention. Indeed having
> more people from the USA attend Wikimania is not a good value proposition.
> The USA and Britain is overrepresented as it is.
> Thanks,
>      GerardM
>
> On 10 February 2016 at 10:13, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > From a US perspective, even here in the global north we have plenty of
> > students and middle-class participants for whom $1500 in travel, food and
> > lodging plus 5 days away from work, family, or school amounts to a
> > significant or impossible sacrifice.
> >
> > Perhaps someone could tell us the statistics for how many people have
> > attended Wikimania each year who were not WMF employees, FDC or WMF Board
> > members, scholarship recipients, or financially sponsored by WMF
> affiliates
> > or WEF. Of those people who pay 100% of their own costs plus the cost of
> > admission tickets, my guess is that many live within a day's travel time
> by
> > train, car, or bus.
> >
> > I would hypothesize that thematic conferences also have a low percentage
> of
> > people who pay 100% of their own costs, but that regional conferences
> which
> > have lower travel costs for the average attendee receive modestly higher
> > percentages of unsubsidized attendance.
> >
> > It seems to me that WMF finacial support for conferences, including
> > regional and thematic conferences, will continue to be the norm.
> >
> > Whether $1 million is appropriate for Wikimania and whether a more modest
> > budget would be appropriate and feasable are different questions that
> merit
> > careful reflection.
> >
> > Pine
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
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> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Reducing the net cost of Wikimania

Jane Darnell
"We also do not have a strong chapter system"

This has always puzzled me, because I am a firm believer in the chapter
system, despite its faults and limitations. Isn't it time to address this
for the more active areas of the USA?

On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 10:43 AM, Andrew Lih <[hidden email]> wrote:

> GerardM,
>
> As much as I agree with you on many things related to Wikimania, your
> statement about en.wp and USA being “over subsidized” is off base.
>
> For the last few years I’ve held my tongue as American applicants get a
> fraction of 10% of all the funding for Wikimania scholarships. That’s
> because 10% is allocated to all of North America, so US based folks compete
> with Canadians for that small slice of the pie. Indeed, key community
> members from the US could not afford to go to Wikimania, and did not,
> because of the limited funding. We also do not have a strong chapter system
> to make up for that shortcoming, where European chapters can, and do,
> underwrite their local members with other funds.
>
> I am not against the bulk of the scholarship money going to
> underrepresented developing markets and giving new voices a chance to
> attend. But I wanted to dispel the myth that Americans are always gorging
> at the trough.
>
>
> https://wikimania2013.wikimedia.org/wiki/Scholarships#Scholarship_selection_process
> https://wikimania2014.wikimedia.org/wiki/Scholarships#Selection_process
>
>
> -Andrew
>
> On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 6:49 AM, Gerard Meijssen <
> [hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Hoi,
> > Pine with all due respect, the USA is not the problem and English
> Wikipedia
> > has been overly subsidised, given way too much attention. Indeed having
> > more people from the USA attend Wikimania is not a good value
> proposition.
> > The USA and Britain is overrepresented as it is.
> > Thanks,
> >      GerardM
> >
> > On 10 February 2016 at 10:13, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > From a US perspective, even here in the global north we have plenty of
> > > students and middle-class participants for whom $1500 in travel, food
> and
> > > lodging plus 5 days away from work, family, or school amounts to a
> > > significant or impossible sacrifice.
> > >
> > > Perhaps someone could tell us the statistics for how many people have
> > > attended Wikimania each year who were not WMF employees, FDC or WMF
> Board
> > > members, scholarship recipients, or financially sponsored by WMF
> > affiliates
> > > or WEF. Of those people who pay 100% of their own costs plus the cost
> of
> > > admission tickets, my guess is that many live within a day's travel
> time
> > by
> > > train, car, or bus.
> > >
> > > I would hypothesize that thematic conferences also have a low
> percentage
> > of
> > > people who pay 100% of their own costs, but that regional conferences
> > which
> > > have lower travel costs for the average attendee receive modestly
> higher
> > > percentages of unsubsidized attendance.
> > >
> > > It seems to me that WMF finacial support for conferences, including
> > > regional and thematic conferences, will continue to be the norm.
> > >
> > > Whether $1 million is appropriate for Wikimania and whether a more
> modest
> > > budget would be appropriate and feasable are different questions that
> > merit
> > > careful reflection.
> > >
> > > Pine
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Reducing the net cost of Wikimania

Robert Fernandez
The US may be too geographically spread out to develop a robust chapter
system.  We have vibrant chapters in a few dense population areas.
Wikimedia District of Columbia is particularly awesome.  But for most US
editors there isn't a critical mass of editors in some areas.  Often we
work with with chapters that are geographically distant.  There's at least
two of us on the Board of Directors of WMDC who don't live particularly
close to DC.

On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 11:00 AM, Jane Darnell <[hidden email]> wrote:

> "We also do not have a strong chapter system"
>
> This has always puzzled me, because I am a firm believer in the chapter
> system, despite its faults and limitations. Isn't it time to address this
> for the more active areas of the USA?
>
> On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 10:43 AM, Andrew Lih <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > GerardM,
> >
> > As much as I agree with you on many things related to Wikimania, your
> > statement about en.wp and USA being “over subsidized” is off base.
> >
> > For the last few years I’ve held my tongue as American applicants get a
> > fraction of 10% of all the funding for Wikimania scholarships. That’s
> > because 10% is allocated to all of North America, so US based folks
> compete
> > with Canadians for that small slice of the pie. Indeed, key community
> > members from the US could not afford to go to Wikimania, and did not,
> > because of the limited funding. We also do not have a strong chapter
> system
> > to make up for that shortcoming, where European chapters can, and do,
> > underwrite their local members with other funds.
> >
> > I am not against the bulk of the scholarship money going to
> > underrepresented developing markets and giving new voices a chance to
> > attend. But I wanted to dispel the myth that Americans are always gorging
> > at the trough.
> >
> >
> >
> https://wikimania2013.wikimedia.org/wiki/Scholarships#Scholarship_selection_process
> > https://wikimania2014.wikimedia.org/wiki/Scholarships#Selection_process
> >
> >
> > -Andrew
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 6:49 AM, Gerard Meijssen <
> > [hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hoi,
> > > Pine with all due respect, the USA is not the problem and English
> > Wikipedia
> > > has been overly subsidised, given way too much attention. Indeed having
> > > more people from the USA attend Wikimania is not a good value
> > proposition.
> > > The USA and Britain is overrepresented as it is.
> > > Thanks,
> > >      GerardM
> > >
> > > On 10 February 2016 at 10:13, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > From a US perspective, even here in the global north we have plenty
> of
> > > > students and middle-class participants for whom $1500 in travel, food
> > and
> > > > lodging plus 5 days away from work, family, or school amounts to a
> > > > significant or impossible sacrifice.
> > > >
> > > > Perhaps someone could tell us the statistics for how many people have
> > > > attended Wikimania each year who were not WMF employees, FDC or WMF
> > Board
> > > > members, scholarship recipients, or financially sponsored by WMF
> > > affiliates
> > > > or WEF. Of those people who pay 100% of their own costs plus the cost
> > of
> > > > admission tickets, my guess is that many live within a day's travel
> > time
> > > by
> > > > train, car, or bus.
> > > >
> > > > I would hypothesize that thematic conferences also have a low
> > percentage
> > > of
> > > > people who pay 100% of their own costs, but that regional conferences
> > > which
> > > > have lower travel costs for the average attendee receive modestly
> > higher
> > > > percentages of unsubsidized attendance.
> > > >
> > > > It seems to me that WMF finacial support for conferences, including
> > > > regional and thematic conferences, will continue to be the norm.
> > > >
> > > > Whether $1 million is appropriate for Wikimania and whether a more
> > modest
> > > > budget would be appropriate and feasable are different questions that
> > > merit
> > > > careful reflection.
> > > >
> > > > Pine
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Reducing the net cost of Wikimania

Gerard Meijssen-3
In reply to this post by Andrew Lih
Hoi,
There is only one argument that I cannot refute about American money. It is
American money that gets us the bulk of our funding. The one obvious reason
is that the fund-raising is targeting the USA. When money is spend, it is
spend predominantly in the USA and targeted for Wikipedia and English
Wikipedia at that.

Arguably the WMF is a global organisation and spending is best allocated
based on where people live. When money is targeted on where we grow, we
would not spend as much on the needs of Wikipedia. We would recognise the
importance of projects like Wikisource and finally give it some attention.
It would benefit particularly benefit India. When the model they have
adopted is introduced elsewhere, it will make many, many more books
available. THAT would have a real impact educationally speaking.

Given the small size of many communities, it is important that they benefit
from the things we already have but the thing that is so easily forgotten
is the road to get there. That road is not a universal given and it is
dominated by the road English WIkipedia has taken. What I find is that
people are happy where we are at. Never mind the nay sayers.

You mention chapters and we have good chapters in Europe. Sadly their
impact on Wikipedia is neglible because they are "not part of the
community" and what they do is largely fringe.

Really English and Wikipedia is over served. IMHO the law of diminishing
returns applies.
Thanks,
      GerardM

On 10 February 2016 at 16:43, Andrew Lih <[hidden email]> wrote:

> GerardM,
>
> As much as I agree with you on many things related to Wikimania, your
> statement about en.wp and USA being “over subsidized” is off base.
>
> For the last few years I’ve held my tongue as American applicants get a
> fraction of 10% of all the funding for Wikimania scholarships. That’s
> because 10% is allocated to all of North America, so US based folks compete
> with Canadians for that small slice of the pie. Indeed, key community
> members from the US could not afford to go to Wikimania, and did not,
> because of the limited funding. We also do not have a strong chapter system
> to make up for that shortcoming, where European chapters can, and do,
> underwrite their local members with other funds.
>
> I am not against the bulk of the scholarship money going to
> underrepresented developing markets and giving new voices a chance to
> attend. But I wanted to dispel the myth that Americans are always gorging
> at the trough.
>
>
> https://wikimania2013.wikimedia.org/wiki/Scholarships#Scholarship_selection_process
> https://wikimania2014.wikimedia.org/wiki/Scholarships#Selection_process
>
>
> -Andrew
>
> On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 6:49 AM, Gerard Meijssen <
> [hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Hoi,
> > Pine with all due respect, the USA is not the problem and English
> Wikipedia
> > has been overly subsidised, given way too much attention. Indeed having
> > more people from the USA attend Wikimania is not a good value
> proposition.
> > The USA and Britain is overrepresented as it is.
> > Thanks,
> >      GerardM
> >
> > On 10 February 2016 at 10:13, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > From a US perspective, even here in the global north we have plenty of
> > > students and middle-class participants for whom $1500 in travel, food
> and
> > > lodging plus 5 days away from work, family, or school amounts to a
> > > significant or impossible sacrifice.
> > >
> > > Perhaps someone could tell us the statistics for how many people have
> > > attended Wikimania each year who were not WMF employees, FDC or WMF
> Board
> > > members, scholarship recipients, or financially sponsored by WMF
> > affiliates
> > > or WEF. Of those people who pay 100% of their own costs plus the cost
> of
> > > admission tickets, my guess is that many live within a day's travel
> time
> > by
> > > train, car, or bus.
> > >
> > > I would hypothesize that thematic conferences also have a low
> percentage
> > of
> > > people who pay 100% of their own costs, but that regional conferences
> > which
> > > have lower travel costs for the average attendee receive modestly
> higher
> > > percentages of unsubsidized attendance.
> > >
> > > It seems to me that WMF finacial support for conferences, including
> > > regional and thematic conferences, will continue to be the norm.
> > >
> > > Whether $1 million is appropriate for Wikimania and whether a more
> modest
> > > budget would be appropriate and feasable are different questions that
> > merit
> > > careful reflection.
> > >
> > > Pine
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Reducing the net cost of Wikimania

Béria Lima
In reply to this post by Andrew Lih
Hi Andrew,

*For the last few years I’ve held my tongue as American applicants get a
> fraction of 10% of all the funding for Wikimania scholarships.*
>

Actually you are looking at the old numbers. Both Wikimanias 2015 and 2016
uses a new method of selection. Now, the Global North*[1]  *has 25% of all
scholarships, and the Global South*[2]* has 75%. Now that you have to
compete with most of the rich countries in the world. And is not all: If
you get into the final 10% of the "cutoff",your place may be taken away by
a woman (or transgender) or a Latino, since that is the policy now*[3]*.

And I for one agree with the new policy. The effort made by a European (or
American, or Canadian) to travel to a Wikimania, is something like one
month of salary. For a woman from the same place will probably be 2 months
(pay gap at its finest!) and for a Latino, African, or Asiatic the effort
starts at 6 months and go on to even a decade*[4]* (A full decade of your
salary to go to Wikimania).

So no, I don't feel sorry that most of the scholarships don't go to
Americans, I'm not denying that there is poor people in rich countries but
the level of poverty is *way* too different.


Béria L
​. de Rodríguez (a Latino Woman 😉)

_______________________________
*References:*

[1]: Australia, Canada, Israel, Hong Kong, Macau, New Zealand, Japan,
Singapore, South Korea, Taiwan, the United States and all of Europe
(including Russia, but excluding Turkey) (source
<https://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Global_South>)
[2]: Asia (with the exception of Japan, Hong Kong, Macau, Singapore, South
Korea and Taiwan), Turkey, Central America, South America, Mexico, Africa,
and the Middle East (with the exception of Israel) (source
<https://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Global_South>)
[3]: For applicants within 10% of the "cutoff", preference will be* first*
given to the* non-male* applicant, and *secondary* preference to applicants
from* Latin America*.(source
<https://wikimania2015.wikimedia.org/wiki/Scholarships#Selection_process> -
enfasis added by me)
[4]: Venezuela for example has a exchange rate Bolivar-US dolar of 1026 BSF
to 1 dolar. Their average salary is 9,500 BSF (about $ 9,00) at that pace
their probability to attend Wikimania on their own tends to zero. (source
for the exchange rate <https://dolartoday.com/>)

_____

*​​**Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter
livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. Ajude-nos a
construir esse sonho.*

2016-02-10 13:43 GMT-02:00 Andrew Lih <[hidden email]>:

> GerardM,
>
> As much as I agree with you on many things related to Wikimania, your
> statement about en.wp and USA being “over subsidized” is off base.
>
> For the last few years I’ve held my tongue as American applicants get a
> fraction of 10% of all the funding for Wikimania scholarships. That’s
> because 10% is allocated to all of North America, so US based folks compete
> with Canadians for that small slice of the pie. Indeed, key community
> members from the US could not afford to go to Wikimania, and did not,
> because of the limited funding. We also do not have a strong chapter system
> to make up for that shortcoming, where European chapters can, and do,
> underwrite their local members with other funds.
>
> I am not against the bulk of the scholarship money going to
> underrepresented developing markets and giving new voices a chance to
> attend. But I wanted to dispel the myth that Americans are always gorging
> at the trough.
>
>
> https://wikimania2013.wikimedia.org/wiki/Scholarships#Scholarship_selection_process
> https://wikimania2014.wikimedia.org/wiki/Scholarships#Selection_process
>
>
> -Andrew
>
> On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 6:49 AM, Gerard Meijssen <
> [hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Hoi,
> > Pine with all due respect, the USA is not the problem and English
> Wikipedia
> > has been overly subsidised, given way too much attention. Indeed having
> > more people from the USA attend Wikimania is not a good value
> proposition.
> > The USA and Britain is overrepresented as it is.
> > Thanks,
> >      GerardM
> >
> > On 10 February 2016 at 10:13, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > From a US perspective, even here in the global north we have plenty of
> > > students and middle-class participants for whom $1500 in travel, food
> and
> > > lodging plus 5 days away from work, family, or school amounts to a
> > > significant or impossible sacrifice.
> > >
> > > Perhaps someone could tell us the statistics for how many people have
> > > attended Wikimania each year who were not WMF employees, FDC or WMF
> Board
> > > members, scholarship recipients, or financially sponsored by WMF
> > affiliates
> > > or WEF. Of those people who pay 100% of their own costs plus the cost
> of
> > > admission tickets, my guess is that many live within a day's travel
> time
> > by
> > > train, car, or bus.
> > >
> > > I would hypothesize that thematic conferences also have a low
> percentage
> > of
> > > people who pay 100% of their own costs, but that regional conferences
> > which
> > > have lower travel costs for the average attendee receive modestly
> higher
> > > percentages of unsubsidized attendance.
> > >
> > > It seems to me that WMF finacial support for conferences, including
> > > regional and thematic conferences, will continue to be the norm.
> > >
> > > Whether $1 million is appropriate for Wikimania and whether a more
> modest
> > > budget would be appropriate and feasable are different questions that
> > merit
> > > careful reflection.
> > >
> > > Pine
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Reducing the net cost of Wikimania

Andrew Lih
Béria L,

Yes, I was heartened to see that the formula had changed in 2015. But the
complexity of the algorithm made it hard to discern what the eventual
impact and numbers were for US-based editors. If you have good stats on
this, I’d appreciate a pointer.

Again, I agree that Wikimania should have massive outreach goal with the
bulk of the scholarships should be used to recruit new key members to our
community and evangelizing the mission outside the US. When I was based in
Asia, I was a big advocate for Wikimania being a way to engage new language
groups.

However, I wanted to push back against the oft-heard refrain that the US is
“overly subsidized” when in fact most metrics show this is not the case.

Thanks!
-Andrew

On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 11:27 AM, Béria Lima <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Andrew,
>
> *For the last few years I’ve held my tongue as American applicants get a
> > fraction of 10% of all the funding for Wikimania scholarships.*
> >
>
> Actually you are looking at the old numbers. Both Wikimanias 2015 and 2016
> uses a new method of selection. Now, the Global North*[1]  *has 25% of all
> scholarships, and the Global South*[2]* has 75%. Now that you have to
> compete with most of the rich countries in the world. And is not all: If
> you get into the final 10% of the "cutoff",your place may be taken away by
> a woman (or transgender) or a Latino, since that is the policy now*[3]*.
>
> And I for one agree with the new policy. The effort made by a European (or
> American, or Canadian) to travel to a Wikimania, is something like one
> month of salary. For a woman from the same place will probably be 2 months
> (pay gap at its finest!) and for a Latino, African, or Asiatic the effort
> starts at 6 months and go on to even a decade*[4]* (A full decade of your
> salary to go to Wikimania).
>
> So no, I don't feel sorry that most of the scholarships don't go to
> Americans, I'm not denying that there is poor people in rich countries but
> the level of poverty is *way* too different.
>
> ​
> Béria L
> ​. de Rodríguez (a Latino Woman 😉)
>
> _______________________________
> *References:*
>
> [1]: Australia, Canada, Israel, Hong Kong, Macau, New Zealand, Japan,
> Singapore, South Korea, Taiwan, the United States and all of Europe
> (including Russia, but excluding Turkey) (source
> <https://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Global_South>)
> [2]: Asia (with the exception of Japan, Hong Kong, Macau, Singapore, South
> Korea and Taiwan), Turkey, Central America, South America, Mexico, Africa,
> and the Middle East (with the exception of Israel) (source
> <https://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Global_South>)
> [3]: For applicants within 10% of the "cutoff", preference will be* first*
> given to the* non-male* applicant, and *secondary* preference to applicants
> from* Latin America*.(source
> <https://wikimania2015.wikimedia.org/wiki/Scholarships#Selection_process>
> -
> enfasis added by me)
> [4]: Venezuela for example has a exchange rate Bolivar-US dolar of 1026 BSF
> to 1 dolar. Their average salary is 9,500 BSF (about $ 9,00) at that pace
> their probability to attend Wikimania on their own tends to zero. (source
> for the exchange rate <https://dolartoday.com/>)
>
> _____
>
> *​​**Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter
> livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. Ajude-nos a
> construir esse sonho.*
>
> 2016-02-10 13:43 GMT-02:00 Andrew Lih <[hidden email]>:
>
> > GerardM,
> >
> > As much as I agree with you on many things related to Wikimania, your
> > statement about en.wp and USA being “over subsidized” is off base.
> >
> > For the last few years I’ve held my tongue as American applicants get a
> > fraction of 10% of all the funding for Wikimania scholarships. That’s
> > because 10% is allocated to all of North America, so US based folks
> compete
> > with Canadians for that small slice of the pie. Indeed, key community
> > members from the US could not afford to go to Wikimania, and did not,
> > because of the limited funding. We also do not have a strong chapter
> system
> > to make up for that shortcoming, where European chapters can, and do,
> > underwrite their local members with other funds.
> >
> > I am not against the bulk of the scholarship money going to
> > underrepresented developing markets and giving new voices a chance to
> > attend. But I wanted to dispel the myth that Americans are always gorging
> > at the trough.
> >
> >
> >
> https://wikimania2013.wikimedia.org/wiki/Scholarships#Scholarship_selection_process
> > https://wikimania2014.wikimedia.org/wiki/Scholarships#Selection_process
> >
> >
> > -Andrew
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 6:49 AM, Gerard Meijssen <
> > [hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hoi,
> > > Pine with all due respect, the USA is not the problem and English
> > Wikipedia
> > > has been overly subsidised, given way too much attention. Indeed having
> > > more people from the USA attend Wikimania is not a good value
> > proposition.
> > > The USA and Britain is overrepresented as it is.
> > > Thanks,
> > >      GerardM
> > >
> > > On 10 February 2016 at 10:13, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > From a US perspective, even here in the global north we have plenty
> of
> > > > students and middle-class participants for whom $1500 in travel, food
> > and
> > > > lodging plus 5 days away from work, family, or school amounts to a
> > > > significant or impossible sacrifice.
> > > >
> > > > Perhaps someone could tell us the statistics for how many people have
> > > > attended Wikimania each year who were not WMF employees, FDC or WMF
> > Board
> > > > members, scholarship recipients, or financially sponsored by WMF
> > > affiliates
> > > > or WEF. Of those people who pay 100% of their own costs plus the cost
> > of
> > > > admission tickets, my guess is that many live within a day's travel
> > time
> > > by
> > > > train, car, or bus.
> > > >
> > > > I would hypothesize that thematic conferences also have a low
> > percentage
> > > of
> > > > people who pay 100% of their own costs, but that regional conferences
> > > which
> > > > have lower travel costs for the average attendee receive modestly
> > higher
> > > > percentages of unsubsidized attendance.
> > > >
> > > > It seems to me that WMF finacial support for conferences, including
> > > > regional and thematic conferences, will continue to be the norm.
> > > >
> > > > Whether $1 million is appropriate for Wikimania and whether a more
> > modest
> > > > budget would be appropriate and feasable are different questions that
> > > merit
> > > > careful reflection.
> > > >
> > > > Pine
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Reducing the net cost of Wikimania

Milos Rancic-2
In reply to this post by metasj
On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 6:06 AM, Samuel Klein <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I found this the most interesting part of the recent IdeaLab discussion
> about changing the Wikimania framework.
>   https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IdeaLab/Towards_a_New_Wikimania
>
>   "*The total spend by WMF for Wikimania 2014 in London and 2015 in Mexico,
> including all travel, accommodations, scholarships, staff support and
> direct conference expenses, was ~$1 million USD*"
>
> This is a pity. Small grants to support a con is one thing, but this is too
> much.
>
> Please let's stop encouraging conferences that do not cover their own
> costs. A good conference series pays for itself, including its scholarship
> pool. There are plenty of communities our size or larger with wonderful,
> regular conferences of hundreds or thousands of people, which break even or
> turn a small profit.
>
> FUDCons are an interesting case in point.  As I understand it, there was a
> time when RedHat basically sponsored the events, with scholarships for all
> active contributors and extensive grants. This was ok, but skewed
> participation.  Then the lavish sponsorship stopped. Attendance dropped;
> community members felt unloved. Then after a time, this passed, and
> everyone attended again. (Perhaps a core Fedora contributor can describe
> this more accurately!)

I have to say I totally disagree with your approach because of a
number of issues:

* Wikimedia movement is not consisted [solely] of highly paid folk
from the tech industry.
* Wikimania is not an opportunity to find a job or to make business contacts.
* Wikimedia movement is not the group of enthusiasts gathering because
of their hobby, mostly relevant just to themselves.
* Wikimedia movement is consisted of real people, not just of servers
and bytes. Consequently, financially independent Wikimedia
stakeholders (WMF and at least one chapter) should spend money not
just on servers and bytes, but on people, as well.
* While I am not against market per se, our core shouldn't be for
sale. I am sure there are the ways how to make Wikimania more
sustainable, but there are numerous things which shouldn't be done and
it has to be carefully analyzed. (One of those being "we can't support
that much of people".)
* It's expensive to have a global movement. It will be just more
expensive. That's the fact, not something to be negotiated.
* Going into contraction without being inside of the financial crisis
is something very common inside of the Wikimedia movement and utterly
stupid.

--
Milos

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Reducing the net cost of Wikimania

Pharos-3
In reply to this post by Robert Fernandez
Hi Wikimedians,

The "chapter system" in the US and North America is a work in progress.

In addition to the two full regional chapters (New York City - where I am,
and Washington, DC), there are also usergroups for the New England,
Cascadia/Northwest, and North Carolina Triangle regions, with other groups
still in the process of formation.

There is a historical difference from the large-budget Western European
chapters and the US situation, which has been more grassroots and never
participated in things like fundraiser payment-sharing, and the funding for
WMF HQ in San Francisco indeed shouldn't be conflated with funding of US
volunteer-based activities.

If anyone else is interested in organizing regionally in any part of the US
/ North America, feel free to get in touch; Wikimedia NYC and others would
be very glad to help you :)

Thanks,
Pharos

On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 11:15 AM, Robert Fernandez <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> The US may be too geographically spread out to develop a robust chapter
> system.  We have vibrant chapters in a few dense population areas.
> Wikimedia District of Columbia is particularly awesome.  But for most US
> editors there isn't a critical mass of editors in some areas.  Often we
> work with with chapters that are geographically distant.  There's at least
> two of us on the Board of Directors of WMDC who don't live particularly
> close to DC.
>
> On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 11:00 AM, Jane Darnell <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > "We also do not have a strong chapter system"
> >
> > This has always puzzled me, because I am a firm believer in the chapter
> > system, despite its faults and limitations. Isn't it time to address this
> > for the more active areas of the USA?
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 10:43 AM, Andrew Lih <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> > > GerardM,
> > >
> > > As much as I agree with you on many things related to Wikimania, your
> > > statement about en.wp and USA being “over subsidized” is off base.
> > >
> > > For the last few years I’ve held my tongue as American applicants get a
> > > fraction of 10% of all the funding for Wikimania scholarships. That’s
> > > because 10% is allocated to all of North America, so US based folks
> > compete
> > > with Canadians for that small slice of the pie. Indeed, key community
> > > members from the US could not afford to go to Wikimania, and did not,
> > > because of the limited funding. We also do not have a strong chapter
> > system
> > > to make up for that shortcoming, where European chapters can, and do,
> > > underwrite their local members with other funds.
> > >
> > > I am not against the bulk of the scholarship money going to
> > > underrepresented developing markets and giving new voices a chance to
> > > attend. But I wanted to dispel the myth that Americans are always
> gorging
> > > at the trough.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://wikimania2013.wikimedia.org/wiki/Scholarships#Scholarship_selection_process
> > >
> https://wikimania2014.wikimedia.org/wiki/Scholarships#Selection_process
> > >
> > >
> > > -Andrew
> > >
> > > On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 6:49 AM, Gerard Meijssen <
> > > [hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hoi,
> > > > Pine with all due respect, the USA is not the problem and English
> > > Wikipedia
> > > > has been overly subsidised, given way too much attention. Indeed
> having
> > > > more people from the USA attend Wikimania is not a good value
> > > proposition.
> > > > The USA and Britain is overrepresented as it is.
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >      GerardM
> > > >
> > > > On 10 February 2016 at 10:13, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > From a US perspective, even here in the global north we have plenty
> > of
> > > > > students and middle-class participants for whom $1500 in travel,
> food
> > > and
> > > > > lodging plus 5 days away from work, family, or school amounts to a
> > > > > significant or impossible sacrifice.
> > > > >
> > > > > Perhaps someone could tell us the statistics for how many people
> have
> > > > > attended Wikimania each year who were not WMF employees, FDC or WMF
> > > Board
> > > > > members, scholarship recipients, or financially sponsored by WMF
> > > > affiliates
> > > > > or WEF. Of those people who pay 100% of their own costs plus the
> cost
> > > of
> > > > > admission tickets, my guess is that many live within a day's travel
> > > time
> > > > by
> > > > > train, car, or bus.
> > > > >
> > > > > I would hypothesize that thematic conferences also have a low
> > > percentage
> > > > of
> > > > > people who pay 100% of their own costs, but that regional
> conferences
> > > > which
> > > > > have lower travel costs for the average attendee receive modestly
> > > higher
> > > > > percentages of unsubsidized attendance.
> > > > >
> > > > > It seems to me that WMF finacial support for conferences, including
> > > > > regional and thematic conferences, will continue to be the norm.
> > > > >
> > > > > Whether $1 million is appropriate for Wikimania and whether a more
> > > modest
> > > > > budget would be appropriate and feasable are different questions
> that
> > > > merit
> > > > > careful reflection.
> > > > >
> > > > > Pine
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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> > New messages to: [hidden email]
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> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Reducing the net cost of Wikimania

Sydney Poore
February is a very busy month with record number of events planned through
out the United States.

Additionally, The Wiki Ed Foundation works with university based education
programs including parts of the United States outside regions covered by
the U.S. Chapters and User groups.

So, although we are doing it differently in the U.S. than other parts of
the whole, it seems to be working pretty well today and has the potential
to grow as more areas are covered by User Groups.

Sydney

Sydney Poore
User:FloNight
Wikipedian in Residence
at Cochrane Collaboration

On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 12:51 PM, Pharos <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hi Wikimedians,
>
> The "chapter system" in the US and North America is a work in progress.
>
> In addition to the two full regional chapters (New York City - where I am,
> and Washington, DC), there are also usergroups for the New England,
> Cascadia/Northwest, and North Carolina Triangle regions, with other groups
> still in the process of formation.
>
> There is a historical difference from the large-budget Western European
> chapters and the US situation, which has been more grassroots and never
> participated in things like fundraiser payment-sharing, and the funding for
> WMF HQ in San Francisco indeed shouldn't be conflated with funding of US
> volunteer-based activities.
>
> If anyone else is interested in organizing regionally in any part of the US
> / North America, feel free to get in touch; Wikimedia NYC and others would
> be very glad to help you :)
>
> Thanks,
> Pharos
>
> On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 11:15 AM, Robert Fernandez <[hidden email]
> >
> wrote:
>
> > The US may be too geographically spread out to develop a robust chapter
> > system.  We have vibrant chapters in a few dense population areas.
> > Wikimedia District of Columbia is particularly awesome.  But for most US
> > editors there isn't a critical mass of editors in some areas.  Often we
> > work with with chapters that are geographically distant.  There's at
> least
> > two of us on the Board of Directors of WMDC who don't live particularly
> > close to DC.
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 11:00 AM, Jane Darnell <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> > > "We also do not have a strong chapter system"
> > >
> > > This has always puzzled me, because I am a firm believer in the chapter
> > > system, despite its faults and limitations. Isn't it time to address
> this
> > > for the more active areas of the USA?
> > >
> > > On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 10:43 AM, Andrew Lih <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > GerardM,
> > > >
> > > > As much as I agree with you on many things related to Wikimania, your
> > > > statement about en.wp and USA being “over subsidized” is off base.
> > > >
> > > > For the last few years I’ve held my tongue as American applicants
> get a
> > > > fraction of 10% of all the funding for Wikimania scholarships. That’s
> > > > because 10% is allocated to all of North America, so US based folks
> > > compete
> > > > with Canadians for that small slice of the pie. Indeed, key community
> > > > members from the US could not afford to go to Wikimania, and did not,
> > > > because of the limited funding. We also do not have a strong chapter
> > > system
> > > > to make up for that shortcoming, where European chapters can, and do,
> > > > underwrite their local members with other funds.
> > > >
> > > > I am not against the bulk of the scholarship money going to
> > > > underrepresented developing markets and giving new voices a chance to
> > > > attend. But I wanted to dispel the myth that Americans are always
> > gorging
> > > > at the trough.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://wikimania2013.wikimedia.org/wiki/Scholarships#Scholarship_selection_process
> > > >
> > https://wikimania2014.wikimedia.org/wiki/Scholarships#Selection_process
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -Andrew
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 6:49 AM, Gerard Meijssen <
> > > > [hidden email]>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hoi,
> > > > > Pine with all due respect, the USA is not the problem and English
> > > > Wikipedia
> > > > > has been overly subsidised, given way too much attention. Indeed
> > having
> > > > > more people from the USA attend Wikimania is not a good value
> > > > proposition.
> > > > > The USA and Britain is overrepresented as it is.
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > >      GerardM
> > > > >
> > > > > On 10 February 2016 at 10:13, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > From a US perspective, even here in the global north we have
> plenty
> > > of
> > > > > > students and middle-class participants for whom $1500 in travel,
> > food
> > > > and
> > > > > > lodging plus 5 days away from work, family, or school amounts to
> a
> > > > > > significant or impossible sacrifice.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Perhaps someone could tell us the statistics for how many people
> > have
> > > > > > attended Wikimania each year who were not WMF employees, FDC or
> WMF
> > > > Board
> > > > > > members, scholarship recipients, or financially sponsored by WMF
> > > > > affiliates
> > > > > > or WEF. Of those people who pay 100% of their own costs plus the
> > cost
> > > > of
> > > > > > admission tickets, my guess is that many live within a day's
> travel
> > > > time
> > > > > by
> > > > > > train, car, or bus.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I would hypothesize that thematic conferences also have a low
> > > > percentage
> > > > > of
> > > > > > people who pay 100% of their own costs, but that regional
> > conferences
> > > > > which
> > > > > > have lower travel costs for the average attendee receive modestly
> > > > higher
> > > > > > percentages of unsubsidized attendance.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It seems to me that WMF finacial support for conferences,
> including
> > > > > > regional and thematic conferences, will continue to be the norm.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Whether $1 million is appropriate for Wikimania and whether a
> more
> > > > modest
> > > > > > budget would be appropriate and feasable are different questions
> > that
> > > > > merit
> > > > > > careful reflection.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Pine
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Reducing the net cost of Wikimania

Robert Fernandez
In reply to this post by Béria Lima
I just want to clarify something.  I apologize in advance for being
pedantic.

In the US the term Latino is also applied to those of us who live in the
United States who have cultural and ethnic ties to Latin America.  Based on
my reading of the selection process those Latinos would not be preferred
applicants.

On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 11:27 AM, Béria Lima <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Andrew,
>
> *For the last few years I’ve held my tongue as American applicants get a
> > fraction of 10% of all the funding for Wikimania scholarships.*
> >
>
> Actually you are looking at the old numbers. Both Wikimanias 2015 and 2016
> uses a new method of selection. Now, the Global North*[1]  *has 25% of all
> scholarships, and the Global South*[2]* has 75%. Now that you have to
> compete with most of the rich countries in the world. And is not all: If
> you get into the final 10% of the "cutoff",your place may be taken away by
> a woman (or transgender) or a Latino, since that is the policy now*[3]*.
>
> And I for one agree with the new policy. The effort made by a European (or
> American, or Canadian) to travel to a Wikimania, is something like one
> month of salary. For a woman from the same place will probably be 2 months
> (pay gap at its finest!) and for a Latino, African, or Asiatic the effort
> starts at 6 months and go on to even a decade*[4]* (A full decade of your
> salary to go to Wikimania).
>
> So no, I don't feel sorry that most of the scholarships don't go to
> Americans, I'm not denying that there is poor people in rich countries but
> the level of poverty is *way* too different.
>
> ​
> Béria L
> ​. de Rodríguez (a Latino Woman 😉)
>
> _______________________________
> *References:*
>
> [1]: Australia, Canada, Israel, Hong Kong, Macau, New Zealand, Japan,
> Singapore, South Korea, Taiwan, the United States and all of Europe
> (including Russia, but excluding Turkey) (source
> <https://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Global_South>)
> [2]: Asia (with the exception of Japan, Hong Kong, Macau, Singapore, South
> Korea and Taiwan), Turkey, Central America, South America, Mexico, Africa,
> and the Middle East (with the exception of Israel) (source
> <https://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Global_South>)
> [3]: For applicants within 10% of the "cutoff", preference will be* first*
> given to the* non-male* applicant, and *secondary* preference to applicants
> from* Latin America*.(source
> <https://wikimania2015.wikimedia.org/wiki/Scholarships#Selection_process>
> -
> enfasis added by me)
> [4]: Venezuela for example has a exchange rate Bolivar-US dolar of 1026 BSF
> to 1 dolar. Their average salary is 9,500 BSF (about $ 9,00) at that pace
> their probability to attend Wikimania on their own tends to zero. (source
> for the exchange rate <https://dolartoday.com/>)
>
> _____
>
> *​​**Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter
> livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. Ajude-nos a
> construir esse sonho.*
>
> 2016-02-10 13:43 GMT-02:00 Andrew Lih <[hidden email]>:
>
> > GerardM,
> >
> > As much as I agree with you on many things related to Wikimania, your
> > statement about en.wp and USA being “over subsidized” is off base.
> >
> > For the last few years I’ve held my tongue as American applicants get a
> > fraction of 10% of all the funding for Wikimania scholarships. That’s
> > because 10% is allocated to all of North America, so US based folks
> compete
> > with Canadians for that small slice of the pie. Indeed, key community
> > members from the US could not afford to go to Wikimania, and did not,
> > because of the limited funding. We also do not have a strong chapter
> system
> > to make up for that shortcoming, where European chapters can, and do,
> > underwrite their local members with other funds.
> >
> > I am not against the bulk of the scholarship money going to
> > underrepresented developing markets and giving new voices a chance to
> > attend. But I wanted to dispel the myth that Americans are always gorging
> > at the trough.
> >
> >
> >
> https://wikimania2013.wikimedia.org/wiki/Scholarships#Scholarship_selection_process
> > https://wikimania2014.wikimedia.org/wiki/Scholarships#Selection_process
> >
> >
> > -Andrew
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 6:49 AM, Gerard Meijssen <
> > [hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hoi,
> > > Pine with all due respect, the USA is not the problem and English
> > Wikipedia
> > > has been overly subsidised, given way too much attention. Indeed having
> > > more people from the USA attend Wikimania is not a good value
> > proposition.
> > > The USA and Britain is overrepresented as it is.
> > > Thanks,
> > >      GerardM
> > >
> > > On 10 February 2016 at 10:13, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > From a US perspective, even here in the global north we have plenty
> of
> > > > students and middle-class participants for whom $1500 in travel, food
> > and
> > > > lodging plus 5 days away from work, family, or school amounts to a
> > > > significant or impossible sacrifice.
> > > >
> > > > Perhaps someone could tell us the statistics for how many people have
> > > > attended Wikimania each year who were not WMF employees, FDC or WMF
> > Board
> > > > members, scholarship recipients, or financially sponsored by WMF
> > > affiliates
> > > > or WEF. Of those people who pay 100% of their own costs plus the cost
> > of
> > > > admission tickets, my guess is that many live within a day's travel
> > time
> > > by
> > > > train, car, or bus.
> > > >
> > > > I would hypothesize that thematic conferences also have a low
> > percentage
> > > of
> > > > people who pay 100% of their own costs, but that regional conferences
> > > which
> > > > have lower travel costs for the average attendee receive modestly
> > higher
> > > > percentages of unsubsidized attendance.
> > > >
> > > > It seems to me that WMF finacial support for conferences, including
> > > > regional and thematic conferences, will continue to be the norm.
> > > >
> > > > Whether $1 million is appropriate for Wikimania and whether a more
> > modest
> > > > budget would be appropriate and feasable are different questions that
> > > merit
> > > > careful reflection.
> > > >
> > > > Pine
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
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> > New messages to: [hidden email]
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> >
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Reducing the net cost of Wikimania

metasj
In reply to this post by Tomasz Ganicz
Itzik writes:

> If we want to talk about the cost of Wikimania it will be great if the
WMF and the local team will share the costs.
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2014/Budget
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2015/Budget
> Maybe I missed something, but it's strange that such discussion takes
place without a real budget breakdown.
> To summarize 2 huge event to "1$ million USD" does not make sense.

Agreed 1million%.  It would be important to see a rough cost breakdown, &
compare that to the best-budgeted Wikimanias.


On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 9:52 AM, Tomasz Ganicz <[hidden email]> wrote:

> 2016-02-10 6:06 GMT+01:00 Samuel Klein <[hidden email]>:
>
> > FUDCons
>
> Also it is hard to compare Wikimanias with FUDCons as it is
> a) much  smaller (usually bo more than 200 attendees)
> b) divided by regions - for example in 2015 there were 3 FUDCons
> (Argentina, India, Spain) and 2 Flocks (NY and Kraków) -  so they are
> rather like our Iberecop or CEE meetings than the global conferences.
>

Thanks.  Similar to regional events perhaps, not Wikimania.  Still worth
comparing budgets perhaps, if available.

But I was wondering about the trend over time: whether extensive funding
during the RedHat days made the events less useful, in the years after that
funding was reduced.



> And also Fedora developers have many potential sources of external funding
> - mainly from IT companies which uses free software and want to apply for
> their specific needs and for whom they quite often work.
>

True.  But attendees to GLAM or education conferences also tend to have
many potential sources of funding - mainly from archives or educational or
technical companies who curate knowledge or develop education tools. And we
have IT industry partners who are similarly willing to support Wikimanias.
Not entirely dissimilar.


> But anyway, Fedora offers scholarships for attendees, see:
>

Yes, wiki conferences should as well - that part of conference funding is
important.  Even early Wikimanias with almost no WMF support had
significant scholarship pools.

S
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Reducing the net cost of Wikimania

John Mark Vandenberg
In reply to this post by Itzik - Wikimedia Israel
On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 2:28 AM, Itzik - Wikimedia Israel
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> If we want to talk about the cost of Wikimania it will be great if the WMF
> and the local team will share the costs.
>
> Until now Wikimania London didn't published anything:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2014/Budget
>
> And also Mexico:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2015/Budget
>
> Maybe I missed something, but it's strange that such discussion takes place
> without a real budget breakdown. To summarize 2 huge event to "1$ million
> USD" does not make sense.

I agree.  Without public data, how can there be an informed public consultation.

I've asked for similar data at:

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:IdeaLab/Towards_a_New_Wikimania#Analysis_on_repeat_funded_attendees

--
John Vandenberg

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Reducing the net cost of Wikimania

David Goodman-2
Rather, we should spend more, possibly several times as much. We need much
wider participation, both for Wikimania and for regional conferences, and
the only practical way to achieve that is to pay full expenses for all
regular participants who want to attend.  It should not be an elite event.
The WMF is running a considerable surplus, and we should spend 5 or 10 %
 of it on interpersonal live access to  each other.

On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 6:02 PM, John Mark Vandenberg <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 2:28 AM, Itzik - Wikimedia Israel
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > If we want to talk about the cost of Wikimania it will be great if the
> WMF
> > and the local team will share the costs.
> >
> > Until now Wikimania London didn't published anything:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2014/Budget
> >
> > And also Mexico:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2015/Budget
> >
> > Maybe I missed something, but it's strange that such discussion takes
> place
> > without a real budget breakdown. To summarize 2 huge event to "1$ million
> > USD" does not make sense.
>
> I agree.  Without public data, how can there be an informed public
> consultation.
>
> I've asked for similar data at:
>
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:IdeaLab/Towards_a_New_Wikimania#Analysis_on_repeat_funded_attendees
>
> --
> John Vandenberg
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>



--
David Goodman

DGG at the enWP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:DGG
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:DGG
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