[Wikimedia-l] Remember Wikipedia Zero.. Where is the research about the effects of its demise?

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[Wikimedia-l] Remember Wikipedia Zero.. Where is the research about the effects of its demise?

Gerard Meijssen-3
Hoi,
The BBC shows how dramatically expensive internet is in Africa.. For in my
opinion local political reasons Wikipedia Zero has terminated. That is ok
up to a point; the point being that we understand the consequences from
this action.

Given that our data is NOT local, people have to pay a premium. What are we
going to do to compensate for expensive Wikipedia that replaced Wikipedia
Zero? Did we study the effects or are we not interested in the consequences
of our actions?
Thanks,
       GerardM

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-50516888
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Remember Wikipedia Zero.. Where is the research about the effects of its demise?

jmh649
We have offline Wikipedia. I have shipped devices to Kinshasa, and
they arrived :-)

Of course they do not at all address the need for two way communication.

I am hoping Starlink will help when it comes online in a few years.

James

On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 12:19 AM Gerard Meijssen
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Hoi,
> The BBC shows how dramatically expensive internet is in Africa.. For in my
> opinion local political reasons Wikipedia Zero has terminated. That is ok
> up to a point; the point being that we understand the consequences from
> this action.
>
> Given that our data is NOT local, people have to pay a premium. What are we
> going to do to compensate for expensive Wikipedia that replaced Wikipedia
> Zero? Did we study the effects or are we not interested in the consequences
> of our actions?
> Thanks,
>        GerardM
>
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-50516888
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>



--
James Heilman
MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Remember Wikipedia Zero.. Where is the research about the effects of its demise?

Gerard Meijssen-3
Hoi,
Kiwix and off line Wikipedia did exist at the start of Wikipedia Zero.  It
is great that you brought some to Africa but you do not scale and it is not
a study into the effects of what the effects are of terminating Wikipedia
Zero.

No idea what "Starlink"  is but it is not a reality for a few more years..
It sounds like we have thrown all these kids under the bus but hey, we have
plan. A plan/action is having our own caches in Africa and providing edit
and read capabilities for all who care to use it... and then measure the
extend it helps us recover from our Wikipedia Zero public.
Thanks,
       GerardM

On Tue, 26 Nov 2019 at 02:48, James Heilman <[hidden email]> wrote:

> We have offline Wikipedia. I have shipped devices to Kinshasa, and
> they arrived :-)
>
> Of course they do not at all address the need for two way communication.
>
> I am hoping Starlink will help when it comes online in a few years.
>
> James
>
> On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 12:19 AM Gerard Meijssen
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Hoi,
> > The BBC shows how dramatically expensive internet is in Africa.. For in
> my
> > opinion local political reasons Wikipedia Zero has terminated. That is ok
> > up to a point; the point being that we understand the consequences from
> > this action.
> >
> > Given that our data is NOT local, people have to pay a premium. What are
> we
> > going to do to compensate for expensive Wikipedia that replaced Wikipedia
> > Zero? Did we study the effects or are we not interested in the
> consequences
> > of our actions?
> > Thanks,
> >        GerardM
> >
> > https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-50516888
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
>
> --
> James Heilman
> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Remember Wikipedia Zero.. Where is the research about the effects of its demise?

Pete Forsyth-2
I agree with Gerard. The Wikimedia Foundation invested substantial money,
and substantial reputational capital, into Wikipedia Zero, for many years.
A sober analysis of the consequences of those decisions would be valuable

Jason Koebler wrote a fascinating and somewhat disturbing series of
articles for Vice, about unintended consequences of the program; not long
after, the program was shut down.

For a major, multi-year effort of one of the world's top web sites, which
is known to have had complex outcomes, it would be really worthwhile to
have solid, well-vetted research into what the consequences and lessons
were. I thought Koebler's take was fascinating, but it wasn't peer reviewed
analysis, and I'm not aware of anybody else who dug into things the way he
did, or any basis to confirm or challenge his conclusions.

If anyone knows of internal Wikimedia program evaluation, or of independent
research, it would be good to know about it.

-Pete
--
Pete Forsyth
User:Peteforsyth

On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 9:34 PM Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hoi,
> Kiwix and off line Wikipedia did exist at the start of Wikipedia Zero.  It
> is great that you brought some to Africa but you do not scale and it is not
> a study into the effects of what the effects are of terminating Wikipedia
> Zero.
>
> No idea what "Starlink"  is but it is not a reality for a few more years..
> It sounds like we have thrown all these kids under the bus but hey, we have
> plan. A plan/action is having our own caches in Africa and providing edit
> and read capabilities for all who care to use it... and then measure the
> extend it helps us recover from our Wikipedia Zero public.
> Thanks,
>        GerardM
>
> On Tue, 26 Nov 2019 at 02:48, James Heilman <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > We have offline Wikipedia. I have shipped devices to Kinshasa, and
> > they arrived :-)
> >
> > Of course they do not at all address the need for two way communication.
> >
> > I am hoping Starlink will help when it comes online in a few years.
> >
> > James
> >
> > On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 12:19 AM Gerard Meijssen
> > <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hoi,
> > > The BBC shows how dramatically expensive internet is in Africa.. For in
> > my
> > > opinion local political reasons Wikipedia Zero has terminated. That is
> ok
> > > up to a point; the point being that we understand the consequences from
> > > this action.
> > >
> > > Given that our data is NOT local, people have to pay a premium. What
> are
> > we
> > > going to do to compensate for expensive Wikipedia that replaced
> Wikipedia
> > > Zero? Did we study the effects or are we not interested in the
> > consequences
> > > of our actions?
> > > Thanks,
> > >        GerardM
> > >
> > > https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-50516888
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > James Heilman
> > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
_______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Remember Wikipedia Zero.. Where is the research about the effects of its demise?

Effe iets anders
In reply to this post by Gerard Meijssen-3
Hi Gerard,

It would be great if you could keep a slightly more constructive tone in
your messages. On one hand, you seem genuinely interested to help access to
free knowledge in Africa, but in your second email, you seem to jump (after
one response) to conclusions already. If you like to get real responses to
your emails, you may want to try a more constructive attitude. For me, it
is at least sufficiently offputting to disengage (I removed the rest of my
response/suggestions).

-- Lodewijk

On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 9:34 PM Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hoi,
> Kiwix and off line Wikipedia did exist at the start of Wikipedia Zero.  It
> is great that you brought some to Africa but you do not scale and it is not
> a study into the effects of what the effects are of terminating Wikipedia
> Zero.


> No idea what "Starlink"  is


https://lmgtfy.com/?q=starlink&s=l


> but it is not a reality for a few more years..
> It sounds like we have thrown all these kids under the bus but hey, we have
> plan. A plan/action is having our own caches in Africa and providing edit
> and read capabilities for all who care to use it... and then measure the
> extend it helps us recover from our Wikipedia Zero public.
> Thanks,
>        GerardM
>
> On Tue, 26 Nov 2019 at 02:48, James Heilman <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > We have offline Wikipedia. I have shipped devices to Kinshasa, and
> > they arrived :-)
> >
> > Of course they do not at all address the need for two way communication.
> >
> > I am hoping Starlink will help when it comes online in a few years.
> >
> > James
> >
> > On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 12:19 AM Gerard Meijssen
> > <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hoi,
> > > The BBC shows how dramatically expensive internet is in Africa.. For in
> > my
> > > opinion local political reasons Wikipedia Zero has terminated. That is
> ok
> > > up to a point; the point being that we understand the consequences from
> > > this action.
> > >
> > > Given that our data is NOT local, people have to pay a premium. What
> are
> > we
> > > going to do to compensate for expensive Wikipedia that replaced
> Wikipedia
> > > Zero? Did we study the effects or are we not interested in the
> > consequences
> > > of our actions?
> > > Thanks,
> > >        GerardM
> > >
> > > https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-50516888
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > James Heilman
> > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
_______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Remember Wikipedia Zero.. Where is the research about the effects of its demise?

Gerard Meijssen-3
Lodewijk,
What I asked for is: do we understand what the impact was of the Wikipedia
Zero project. In the answer of James, a board member of the WMF someone who
could know, there is nothing that answers that question. All the answer
does is deflect the question to something else. A notion that it is "not
that bad because we have these other things". These things we had before
Wikipedia Zero, they are not Wikipedia and they do not scale.

What I have noticed is that once consensus has been reached, we do not want
to be confronted with the consequences of our actions. Wikipedia Zero has
damaged our outreach and what the BBC info reminds us of is that Internet,
the cost of Internet, is not comparable in Africa with what we are used to.
It means that we no longer reach the girls and boys in Soweto as we showed
in our film clip at the Erasmus award.

We do not cover Africa properly, we do not need to seek consensus about
this, that is easily to be shown. Our focus on outreach is in America, then
Europe, then the rest of the world and there is Africa. From the moment we
stopped Wikipedia Zero, we have invested heavily in infrastructure in
Africa, the organisational presence in the USA is now such that it rivals
Wikimania and is used as an excuse by some to even dismantle Wikimania. As
an organisation, a movement the "centre periphery" model is alive and well.
We happily embrace Burke's peerage in Wikidata and we balk at the fact that
covering science takes resources away from pet projects.

You tell me to be constructive and here I lay out what the situation is.
How can you be constructive as our movement does not support science, the
people who need our information most are disenfranchised because we do not
cover them, support them in an equal manner.
Thanks,


On Sun, 1 Dec 2019 at 04:31, effe iets anders <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hi Gerard,
>
> It would be great if you could keep a slightly more constructive tone in
> your messages. On one hand, you seem genuinely interested to help access to
> free knowledge in Africa, but in your second email, you seem to jump (after
> one response) to conclusions already. If you like to get real responses to
> your emails, you may want to try a more constructive attitude. For me, it
> is at least sufficiently offputting to disengage (I removed the rest of my
> response/suggestions).
>
> -- Lodewijk
>
> On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 9:34 PM Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]
> >
> wrote:
>
> > Hoi,
> > Kiwix and off line Wikipedia did exist at the start of Wikipedia Zero.
> It
> > is great that you brought some to Africa but you do not scale and it is
> not
> > a study into the effects of what the effects are of terminating Wikipedia
> > Zero.
>
>
> > No idea what "Starlink"  is
>
>
> https://lmgtfy.com/?q=starlink&s=l
>
>
> > but it is not a reality for a few more years..
> > It sounds like we have thrown all these kids under the bus but hey, we
> have
> > plan. A plan/action is having our own caches in Africa and providing edit
> > and read capabilities for all who care to use it... and then measure the
> > extend it helps us recover from our Wikipedia Zero public.
> > Thanks,
> >        GerardM
> >
> > On Tue, 26 Nov 2019 at 02:48, James Heilman <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > We have offline Wikipedia. I have shipped devices to Kinshasa, and
> > > they arrived :-)
> > >
> > > Of course they do not at all address the need for two way
> communication.
> > >
> > > I am hoping Starlink will help when it comes online in a few years.
> > >
> > > James
> > >
> > > On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 12:19 AM Gerard Meijssen
> > > <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hoi,
> > > > The BBC shows how dramatically expensive internet is in Africa.. For
> in
> > > my
> > > > opinion local political reasons Wikipedia Zero has terminated. That
> is
> > ok
> > > > up to a point; the point being that we understand the consequences
> from
> > > > this action.
> > > >
> > > > Given that our data is NOT local, people have to pay a premium. What
> > are
> > > we
> > > > going to do to compensate for expensive Wikipedia that replaced
> > Wikipedia
> > > > Zero? Did we study the effects or are we not interested in the
> > > consequences
> > > > of our actions?
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >        GerardM
> > > >
> > > > https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-50516888
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > James Heilman
> > > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
_______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Remember Wikipedia Zero.. Where is the research about the effects of its demise?

Fæ
On Sun, 1 Dec 2019 at 11:09, Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]> wrote:
...
> What I have noticed is that once consensus has been reached, we do not want
> to be confronted with the consequences of our actions. Wikipedia Zero has
> damaged our outreach and what the BBC info reminds us of is that Internet,
> the cost of Internet, is not comparable in Africa with what we are used to.
> It means that we no longer reach the girls and boys in Soweto as we showed
> in our film clip at the Erasmus award.
...

The disconnect between what matters and the different realities we
live in is easy to see when a fundraising appeal for the WMF was based
on virtual charity tin rattling to raise $3 being the "price of a
coffee".[1] For some, $3 pays for our Sunday lunch.

We should accept that it is impossibly hard for Wikimedia Foundation
employees to take to heart that San Francisco or the Trump dominated
America is not the "real world", and the ever thin rationales to keep
on funding the WMF head office there, rather than relocating to
anywhere else in the world that would in every practical way be run at
half the cost has been a jarring reminder. The "Wikimedia Community"
has never been the Wikimedia Foundation, and yet the Wikimedia
Community is failing when it leaves decisions like Wikipedia Zero to
be created and cancelled entirely under the authority of the Wikimedia
Foundation.

In the long term, the Foundation does not bear the responsibility for
these actions, it is us. It is up to us to find better and more
transparent ways to govern the operational business that acts in our
name and which left to its own devices will become less transparent
every year, and less accountable for why high budget and
staff/contractor growth is a "good" thing when money for volunteer
activities flatlines.

Link
1. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Oversized_donation_notice.png

Fae
--
[hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Remember Wikipedia Zero.. Where is the research about the effects of its demise?

Peter Southwood
In reply to this post by Gerard Meijssen-3
Gerhard,
I am also interested in what the impact of Wikipedia Zero was, but it is not obvious to me how it would be measured.
The board members are unlikely to have personally researched this, but might know if there is or was a project and if so what they are or were trying to measure. Equally, someone from WMF might be able to report on what has been or is being done in this regard. It is also possible that nothing has been done, or someone who does not read this list is working on it.
If anyone reads this and can enlighten us, either to whether it is an ongoing project, has been done and the information is available somewhere, or nobody is known to be working on it, please let us know.
Anyone who has ideas on how it could be measured or why it can't is also welcome to comment.
Cheers,
Peter


-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Gerard Meijssen
Sent: 01 December 2019 08:19
To: Lodewijk Gelauf; Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Remember Wikipedia Zero.. Where is the research about the effects of its demise?

Lodewijk,
What I asked for is: do we understand what the impact was of the Wikipedia
Zero project. In the answer of James, a board member of the WMF someone who
could know, there is nothing that answers that question. All the answer
does is deflect the question to something else. A notion that it is "not
that bad because we have these other things". These things we had before
Wikipedia Zero, they are not Wikipedia and they do not scale.

What I have noticed is that once consensus has been reached, we do not want
to be confronted with the consequences of our actions. Wikipedia Zero has
damaged our outreach and what the BBC info reminds us of is that Internet,
the cost of Internet, is not comparable in Africa with what we are used to.
It means that we no longer reach the girls and boys in Soweto as we showed
in our film clip at the Erasmus award.

We do not cover Africa properly, we do not need to seek consensus about
this, that is easily to be shown. Our focus on outreach is in America, then
Europe, then the rest of the world and there is Africa. From the moment we
stopped Wikipedia Zero, we have invested heavily in infrastructure in
Africa, the organisational presence in the USA is now such that it rivals
Wikimania and is used as an excuse by some to even dismantle Wikimania. As
an organisation, a movement the "centre periphery" model is alive and well.
We happily embrace Burke's peerage in Wikidata and we balk at the fact that
covering science takes resources away from pet projects.

You tell me to be constructive and here I lay out what the situation is.
How can you be constructive as our movement does not support science, the
people who need our information most are disenfranchised because we do not
cover them, support them in an equal manner.
Thanks,


On Sun, 1 Dec 2019 at 04:31, effe iets anders <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hi Gerard,
>
> It would be great if you could keep a slightly more constructive tone in
> your messages. On one hand, you seem genuinely interested to help access to
> free knowledge in Africa, but in your second email, you seem to jump (after
> one response) to conclusions already. If you like to get real responses to
> your emails, you may want to try a more constructive attitude. For me, it
> is at least sufficiently offputting to disengage (I removed the rest of my
> response/suggestions).
>
> -- Lodewijk
>
> On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 9:34 PM Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]
> >
> wrote:
>
> > Hoi,
> > Kiwix and off line Wikipedia did exist at the start of Wikipedia Zero.
> It
> > is great that you brought some to Africa but you do not scale and it is
> not
> > a study into the effects of what the effects are of terminating Wikipedia
> > Zero.
>
>
> > No idea what "Starlink"  is
>
>
> https://lmgtfy.com/?q=starlink&s=l
>
>
> > but it is not a reality for a few more years..
> > It sounds like we have thrown all these kids under the bus but hey, we
> have
> > plan. A plan/action is having our own caches in Africa and providing edit
> > and read capabilities for all who care to use it... and then measure the
> > extend it helps us recover from our Wikipedia Zero public.
> > Thanks,
> >        GerardM
> >
> > On Tue, 26 Nov 2019 at 02:48, James Heilman <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > We have offline Wikipedia. I have shipped devices to Kinshasa, and
> > > they arrived :-)
> > >
> > > Of course they do not at all address the need for two way
> communication.
> > >
> > > I am hoping Starlink will help when it comes online in a few years.
> > >
> > > James
> > >
> > > On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 12:19 AM Gerard Meijssen
> > > <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hoi,
> > > > The BBC shows how dramatically expensive internet is in Africa.. For
> in
> > > my
> > > > opinion local political reasons Wikipedia Zero has terminated. That
> is
> > ok
> > > > up to a point; the point being that we understand the consequences
> from
> > > > this action.
> > > >
> > > > Given that our data is NOT local, people have to pay a premium. What
> > are
> > > we
> > > > going to do to compensate for expensive Wikipedia that replaced
> > Wikipedia
> > > > Zero? Did we study the effects or are we not interested in the
> > > consequences
> > > > of our actions?
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >        GerardM
> > > >
> > > > https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-50516888
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > James Heilman
> > > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Remember Wikipedia Zero.. Where is the research about the effects of its demise?

Gerard Meijssen-3
Hoi,
Peter we were celebrated when we received the Erasmus prize. It was a
joyous occasion and a clip was shown with children from Soweto explaining
what Wikipedia Zero meant for them. At the time we DID have statistics on
growth from Africa. We did know what growth was attributable to Wikipedia
Zero. We have continued to measure our performance so the answer is one
where someone with appropriate knowledgeable or skills looks at the
numbers, extrapolate a growth path and compare. Not really problematic.
What is problematic is for us to accept that our choices have
consequences. *Our
*maturity can be measured by our ability to know and accept the
consequences of our actions.

Contrary to some, I do think as an organisation we are doing quite well.
What we do is still biased and if we are to be less biased we have to both
ask for money and spend more money in Africa, South America and Asia. As it
is, European and North Americans have the expectation that they are
entitled because they pay for things. Fundraising in Africa, South American
and Asia may not be as "profitable" but the value we gain by asking people
to support *themselves *is of value in itself.

We could and should spend more where our potential impact is biggest. As it
is we do not even know the science that establishes or refutes what we have
in our Wikipedias. As it is we only know somewhat what we used as a
reference, hardly representative particularly when you broaden your
horizon. Oh and when will we have a formal register of organisations we
partner with like the Internet Archive?
Thanks,
        GerardM

On Sun, 1 Dec 2019 at 13:13, Peter Southwood <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Gerhard,
> I am also interested in what the impact of Wikipedia Zero was, but it is
> not obvious to me how it would be measured.
> The board members are unlikely to have personally researched this, but
> might know if there is or was a project and if so what they are or were
> trying to measure. Equally, someone from WMF might be able to report on
> what has been or is being done in this regard. It is also possible that
> nothing has been done, or someone who does not read this list is working on
> it.
> If anyone reads this and can enlighten us, either to whether it is an
> ongoing project, has been done and the information is available somewhere,
> or nobody is known to be working on it, please let us know.
> Anyone who has ideas on how it could be measured or why it can't is also
> welcome to comment.
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of Gerard Meijssen
> Sent: 01 December 2019 08:19
> To: Lodewijk Gelauf; Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Remember Wikipedia Zero.. Where is the research
> about the effects of its demise?
>
> Lodewijk,
> What I asked for is: do we understand what the impact was of the Wikipedia
> Zero project. In the answer of James, a board member of the WMF someone who
> could know, there is nothing that answers that question. All the answer
> does is deflect the question to something else. A notion that it is "not
> that bad because we have these other things". These things we had before
> Wikipedia Zero, they are not Wikipedia and they do not scale.
>
> What I have noticed is that once consensus has been reached, we do not want
> to be confronted with the consequences of our actions. Wikipedia Zero has
> damaged our outreach and what the BBC info reminds us of is that Internet,
> the cost of Internet, is not comparable in Africa with what we are used to.
> It means that we no longer reach the girls and boys in Soweto as we showed
> in our film clip at the Erasmus award.
>
> We do not cover Africa properly, we do not need to seek consensus about
> this, that is easily to be shown. Our focus on outreach is in America, then
> Europe, then the rest of the world and there is Africa. From the moment we
> stopped Wikipedia Zero, we have invested heavily in infrastructure in
> Africa, the organisational presence in the USA is now such that it rivals
> Wikimania and is used as an excuse by some to even dismantle Wikimania. As
> an organisation, a movement the "centre periphery" model is alive and well.
> We happily embrace Burke's peerage in Wikidata and we balk at the fact that
> covering science takes resources away from pet projects.
>
> You tell me to be constructive and here I lay out what the situation is.
> How can you be constructive as our movement does not support science, the
> people who need our information most are disenfranchised because we do not
> cover them, support them in an equal manner.
> Thanks,
>
>
> On Sun, 1 Dec 2019 at 04:31, effe iets anders <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi Gerard,
> >
> > It would be great if you could keep a slightly more constructive tone in
> > your messages. On one hand, you seem genuinely interested to help access
> to
> > free knowledge in Africa, but in your second email, you seem to jump
> (after
> > one response) to conclusions already. If you like to get real responses
> to
> > your emails, you may want to try a more constructive attitude. For me, it
> > is at least sufficiently offputting to disengage (I removed the rest of
> my
> > response/suggestions).
> >
> > -- Lodewijk
> >
> > On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 9:34 PM Gerard Meijssen <
> [hidden email]
> > >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hoi,
> > > Kiwix and off line Wikipedia did exist at the start of Wikipedia Zero.
> > It
> > > is great that you brought some to Africa but you do not scale and it is
> > not
> > > a study into the effects of what the effects are of terminating
> Wikipedia
> > > Zero.
> >
> >
> > > No idea what "Starlink"  is
> >
> >
> > https://lmgtfy.com/?q=starlink&s=l
> >
> >
> > > but it is not a reality for a few more years..
> > > It sounds like we have thrown all these kids under the bus but hey, we
> > have
> > > plan. A plan/action is having our own caches in Africa and providing
> edit
> > > and read capabilities for all who care to use it... and then measure
> the
> > > extend it helps us recover from our Wikipedia Zero public.
> > > Thanks,
> > >        GerardM
> > >
> > > On Tue, 26 Nov 2019 at 02:48, James Heilman <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > We have offline Wikipedia. I have shipped devices to Kinshasa, and
> > > > they arrived :-)
> > > >
> > > > Of course they do not at all address the need for two way
> > communication.
> > > >
> > > > I am hoping Starlink will help when it comes online in a few years.
> > > >
> > > > James
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 12:19 AM Gerard Meijssen
> > > > <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hoi,
> > > > > The BBC shows how dramatically expensive internet is in Africa..
> For
> > in
> > > > my
> > > > > opinion local political reasons Wikipedia Zero has terminated. That
> > is
> > > ok
> > > > > up to a point; the point being that we understand the consequences
> > from
> > > > > this action.
> > > > >
> > > > > Given that our data is NOT local, people have to pay a premium.
> What
> > > are
> > > > we
> > > > > going to do to compensate for expensive Wikipedia that replaced
> > > Wikipedia
> > > > > Zero? Did we study the effects or are we not interested in the
> > > > consequences
> > > > > of our actions?
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > >        GerardM
> > > > >
> > > > > https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-50516888
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > James Heilman
> > > > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
> --
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> https://www.avg.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Remember Wikipedia Zero.. Where is the research about the effects of its demise?

Gabriel Thullen
In reply to this post by Peter Southwood
Top-down and Bottom-up:
Wikipedia relies on volunteers and can really be considered to be a
"bottom-up" encyclopedia project, where the readers can also add content
and become part of the project. I consider that the Kiwix offline Wikipedia
is also very democratic in that anyone can copy and share the files,
install them on their own devices and really feel like they own the
knowledge.

Wikipedia Zero is a top-down way of distributing the encyclopedia and users
of Wikipedia zero are just that: users. They will consume the knowledge and
will have no role in distributing it further except maybe by promoting one
particular cell phone operator instead of another.

I have been a few times to Senegal, visiting schools and sharing Kiwix and
off-line Wikipedia with the teachers and the educational community.  The
files that I brought on USB thumb drives have been copied and shared
hundreds and hundreds of times. But I am just one guy and that is really
not enough to reach the whole continent. But we can scale up...

Wikimedia Zero was never even present in Senegal, at least not when I was
there: in 2014, 2015, 2016 and 2019. I think that it never took off before
the whole project was abandoned.
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Global_Reach/MEA#Wikipedia Zero in Senegal
with Tigo [Affordability] [Private Sector]

That been said, it would be interesting to measure the effectiveness of the
"Wikipedia Zero" project...

On Sun, Dec 1, 2019 at 1:13 PM Peter Southwood <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Gerhard,
> I am also interested in what the impact of Wikipedia Zero was, but it is
> not obvious to me how it would be measured.
> The board members are unlikely to have personally researched this, but
> might know if there is or was a project and if so what they are or were
> trying to measure. Equally, someone from WMF might be able to report on
> what has been or is being done in this regard. It is also possible that
> nothing has been done, or someone who does not read this list is working on
> it.
> If anyone reads this and can enlighten us, either to whether it is an
> ongoing project, has been done and the information is available somewhere,
> or nobody is known to be working on it, please let us know.
> Anyone who has ideas on how it could be measured or why it can't is also
> welcome to comment.
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of Gerard Meijssen
> Sent: 01 December 2019 08:19
> To: Lodewijk Gelauf; Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Remember Wikipedia Zero.. Where is the research
> about the effects of its demise?
>
> Lodewijk,
> What I asked for is: do we understand what the impact was of the Wikipedia
> Zero project. In the answer of James, a board member of the WMF someone who
> could know, there is nothing that answers that question. All the answer
> does is deflect the question to something else. A notion that it is "not
> that bad because we have these other things". These things we had before
> Wikipedia Zero, they are not Wikipedia and they do not scale.
>
> What I have noticed is that once consensus has been reached, we do not want
> to be confronted with the consequences of our actions. Wikipedia Zero has
> damaged our outreach and what the BBC info reminds us of is that Internet,
> the cost of Internet, is not comparable in Africa with what we are used to.
> It means that we no longer reach the girls and boys in Soweto as we showed
> in our film clip at the Erasmus award.
>
> We do not cover Africa properly, we do not need to seek consensus about
> this, that is easily to be shown. Our focus on outreach is in America, then
> Europe, then the rest of the world and there is Africa. From the moment we
> stopped Wikipedia Zero, we have invested heavily in infrastructure in
> Africa, the organisational presence in the USA is now such that it rivals
> Wikimania and is used as an excuse by some to even dismantle Wikimania. As
> an organisation, a movement the "centre periphery" model is alive and well.
> We happily embrace Burke's peerage in Wikidata and we balk at the fact that
> covering science takes resources away from pet projects.
>
> You tell me to be constructive and here I lay out what the situation is.
> How can you be constructive as our movement does not support science, the
> people who need our information most are disenfranchised because we do not
> cover them, support them in an equal manner.
> Thanks,
>
>
> On Sun, 1 Dec 2019 at 04:31, effe iets anders <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi Gerard,
> >
> > It would be great if you could keep a slightly more constructive tone in
> > your messages. On one hand, you seem genuinely interested to help access
> to
> > free knowledge in Africa, but in your second email, you seem to jump
> (after
> > one response) to conclusions already. If you like to get real responses
> to
> > your emails, you may want to try a more constructive attitude. For me, it
> > is at least sufficiently offputting to disengage (I removed the rest of
> my
> > response/suggestions).
> >
> > -- Lodewijk
> >
> > On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 9:34 PM Gerard Meijssen <
> [hidden email]
> > >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hoi,
> > > Kiwix and off line Wikipedia did exist at the start of Wikipedia Zero.
> > It
> > > is great that you brought some to Africa but you do not scale and it is
> > not
> > > a study into the effects of what the effects are of terminating
> Wikipedia
> > > Zero.
> >
> >
> > > No idea what "Starlink"  is
> >
> >
> > https://lmgtfy.com/?q=starlink&s=l
> >
> >
> > > but it is not a reality for a few more years..
> > > It sounds like we have thrown all these kids under the bus but hey, we
> > have
> > > plan. A plan/action is having our own caches in Africa and providing
> edit
> > > and read capabilities for all who care to use it... and then measure
> the
> > > extend it helps us recover from our Wikipedia Zero public.
> > > Thanks,
> > >        GerardM
> > >
> > > On Tue, 26 Nov 2019 at 02:48, James Heilman <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > We have offline Wikipedia. I have shipped devices to Kinshasa, and
> > > > they arrived :-)
> > > >
> > > > Of course they do not at all address the need for two way
> > communication.
> > > >
> > > > I am hoping Starlink will help when it comes online in a few years.
> > > >
> > > > James
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 12:19 AM Gerard Meijssen
> > > > <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hoi,
> > > > > The BBC shows how dramatically expensive internet is in Africa..
> For
> > in
> > > > my
> > > > > opinion local political reasons Wikipedia Zero has terminated. That
> > is
> > > ok
> > > > > up to a point; the point being that we understand the consequences
> > from
> > > > > this action.
> > > > >
> > > > > Given that our data is NOT local, people have to pay a premium.
> What
> > > are
> > > > we
> > > > > going to do to compensate for expensive Wikipedia that replaced
> > > Wikipedia
> > > > > Zero? Did we study the effects or are we not interested in the
> > > > consequences
> > > > > of our actions?
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > >        GerardM
> > > > >
> > > > > https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-50516888
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > James Heilman
> > > > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
> --
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> https://www.avg.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Remember Wikipedia Zero.. Where is the research about the effects of its demise?

James Salsman-2
In reply to this post by Peter Southwood
Kul,

Would you please send a few or more paragraph description of the
accomplishments and costs of the Wikipedia Zero program to the
wikimedia-l list?

I also would love to see it back. The concerns about zero rating
service abuse are real, but they did not apply to WZ no matter how
many people implied they did at the time.

Best regards,
Jim

On Sun, Dec 1, 2019 at 4:13 AM Peter Southwood
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Gerhard,
> I am also interested in what the impact of Wikipedia Zero was, but it is not obvious to me how it would be measured.
> The board members are unlikely to have personally researched this, but might know if there is or was a project and if so what they are or were trying to measure. Equally, someone from WMF might be able to report on what has been or is being done in this regard. It is also possible that nothing has been done, or someone who does not read this list is working on it.
> If anyone reads this and can enlighten us, either to whether it is an ongoing project, has been done and the information is available somewhere, or nobody is known to be working on it, please let us know.
> Anyone who has ideas on how it could be measured or why it can't is also welcome to comment.
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Gerard Meijssen
> Sent: 01 December 2019 08:19
> To: Lodewijk Gelauf; Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Remember Wikipedia Zero.. Where is the research about the effects of its demise?
>
> Lodewijk,
> What I asked for is: do we understand what the impact was of the Wikipedia
> Zero project. In the answer of James, a board member of the WMF someone who
> could know, there is nothing that answers that question. All the answer
> does is deflect the question to something else. A notion that it is "not
> that bad because we have these other things". These things we had before
> Wikipedia Zero, they are not Wikipedia and they do not scale.
>
> What I have noticed is that once consensus has been reached, we do not want
> to be confronted with the consequences of our actions. Wikipedia Zero has
> damaged our outreach and what the BBC info reminds us of is that Internet,
> the cost of Internet, is not comparable in Africa with what we are used to.
> It means that we no longer reach the girls and boys in Soweto as we showed
> in our film clip at the Erasmus award.
>
> We do not cover Africa properly, we do not need to seek consensus about
> this, that is easily to be shown. Our focus on outreach is in America, then
> Europe, then the rest of the world and there is Africa. From the moment we
> stopped Wikipedia Zero, we have invested heavily in infrastructure in
> Africa, the organisational presence in the USA is now such that it rivals
> Wikimania and is used as an excuse by some to even dismantle Wikimania. As
> an organisation, a movement the "centre periphery" model is alive and well.
> We happily embrace Burke's peerage in Wikidata and we balk at the fact that
> covering science takes resources away from pet projects.
>
> You tell me to be constructive and here I lay out what the situation is.
> How can you be constructive as our movement does not support science, the
> people who need our information most are disenfranchised because we do not
> cover them, support them in an equal manner.
> Thanks,
>
>
> On Sun, 1 Dec 2019 at 04:31, effe iets anders <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi Gerard,
> >
> > It would be great if you could keep a slightly more constructive tone in
> > your messages. On one hand, you seem genuinely interested to help access to
> > free knowledge in Africa, but in your second email, you seem to jump (after
> > one response) to conclusions already. If you like to get real responses to
> > your emails, you may want to try a more constructive attitude. For me, it
> > is at least sufficiently offputting to disengage (I removed the rest of my
> > response/suggestions).
> >
> > -- Lodewijk
> >
> > On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 9:34 PM Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]
> > >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hoi,
> > > Kiwix and off line Wikipedia did exist at the start of Wikipedia Zero.
> > It
> > > is great that you brought some to Africa but you do not scale and it is
> > not
> > > a study into the effects of what the effects are of terminating Wikipedia
> > > Zero.
> >
> >
> > > No idea what "Starlink"  is
> >
> >
> > https://lmgtfy.com/?q=starlink&s=l
> >
> >
> > > but it is not a reality for a few more years..
> > > It sounds like we have thrown all these kids under the bus but hey, we
> > have
> > > plan. A plan/action is having our own caches in Africa and providing edit
> > > and read capabilities for all who care to use it... and then measure the
> > > extend it helps us recover from our Wikipedia Zero public.
> > > Thanks,
> > >        GerardM
> > >
> > > On Tue, 26 Nov 2019 at 02:48, James Heilman <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > We have offline Wikipedia. I have shipped devices to Kinshasa, and
> > > > they arrived :-)
> > > >
> > > > Of course they do not at all address the need for two way
> > communication.
> > > >
> > > > I am hoping Starlink will help when it comes online in a few years.
> > > >
> > > > James
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 12:19 AM Gerard Meijssen
> > > > <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hoi,
> > > > > The BBC shows how dramatically expensive internet is in Africa.. For
> > in
> > > > my
> > > > > opinion local political reasons Wikipedia Zero has terminated. That
> > is
> > > ok
> > > > > up to a point; the point being that we understand the consequences
> > from
> > > > > this action.
> > > > >
> > > > > Given that our data is NOT local, people have to pay a premium. What
> > > are
> > > > we
> > > > > going to do to compensate for expensive Wikipedia that replaced
> > > Wikipedia
> > > > > Zero? Did we study the effects or are we not interested in the
> > > > consequences
> > > > > of our actions?
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > >        GerardM
> > > > >
> > > > > https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-50516888
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > James Heilman
> > > > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
> --
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> https://www.avg.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>

_______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Remember Wikipedia Zero.. Where is the research about the effects of its demise?

jmh649
The offline apps have also been downloaded 100 of thousands of times
mostly from people in LMIC.

Wikipedia Zero faced the controversial about net neutrality. And thus
we were legally banned from continuing in India.

Douglas Scott and I discussed the effects of the program in South
Africa. Have cc'ed him to comment further but basically it sounded not
all that great due to all the further limitations that were added by
the telecoms.

James

On Sun, Dec 1, 2019 at 4:25 PM James Salsman <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Kul,
>
> Would you please send a few or more paragraph description of the
> accomplishments and costs of the Wikipedia Zero program to the
> wikimedia-l list?
>
> I also would love to see it back. The concerns about zero rating
> service abuse are real, but they did not apply to WZ no matter how
> many people implied they did at the time.
>
> Best regards,
> Jim
>
> On Sun, Dec 1, 2019 at 4:13 AM Peter Southwood
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Gerhard,
> > I am also interested in what the impact of Wikipedia Zero was, but it is not obvious to me how it would be measured.
> > The board members are unlikely to have personally researched this, but might know if there is or was a project and if so what they are or were trying to measure. Equally, someone from WMF might be able to report on what has been or is being done in this regard. It is also possible that nothing has been done, or someone who does not read this list is working on it.
> > If anyone reads this and can enlighten us, either to whether it is an ongoing project, has been done and the information is available somewhere, or nobody is known to be working on it, please let us know.
> > Anyone who has ideas on how it could be measured or why it can't is also welcome to comment.
> > Cheers,
> > Peter
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Gerard Meijssen
> > Sent: 01 December 2019 08:19
> > To: Lodewijk Gelauf; Wikimedia Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Remember Wikipedia Zero.. Where is the research about the effects of its demise?
> >
> > Lodewijk,
> > What I asked for is: do we understand what the impact was of the Wikipedia
> > Zero project. In the answer of James, a board member of the WMF someone who
> > could know, there is nothing that answers that question. All the answer
> > does is deflect the question to something else. A notion that it is "not
> > that bad because we have these other things". These things we had before
> > Wikipedia Zero, they are not Wikipedia and they do not scale.
> >
> > What I have noticed is that once consensus has been reached, we do not want
> > to be confronted with the consequences of our actions. Wikipedia Zero has
> > damaged our outreach and what the BBC info reminds us of is that Internet,
> > the cost of Internet, is not comparable in Africa with what we are used to.
> > It means that we no longer reach the girls and boys in Soweto as we showed
> > in our film clip at the Erasmus award.
> >
> > We do not cover Africa properly, we do not need to seek consensus about
> > this, that is easily to be shown. Our focus on outreach is in America, then
> > Europe, then the rest of the world and there is Africa. From the moment we
> > stopped Wikipedia Zero, we have invested heavily in infrastructure in
> > Africa, the organisational presence in the USA is now such that it rivals
> > Wikimania and is used as an excuse by some to even dismantle Wikimania. As
> > an organisation, a movement the "centre periphery" model is alive and well.
> > We happily embrace Burke's peerage in Wikidata and we balk at the fact that
> > covering science takes resources away from pet projects.
> >
> > You tell me to be constructive and here I lay out what the situation is.
> > How can you be constructive as our movement does not support science, the
> > people who need our information most are disenfranchised because we do not
> > cover them, support them in an equal manner.
> > Thanks,
> >
> >
> > On Sun, 1 Dec 2019 at 04:31, effe iets anders <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Gerard,
> > >
> > > It would be great if you could keep a slightly more constructive tone in
> > > your messages. On one hand, you seem genuinely interested to help access to
> > > free knowledge in Africa, but in your second email, you seem to jump (after
> > > one response) to conclusions already. If you like to get real responses to
> > > your emails, you may want to try a more constructive attitude. For me, it
> > > is at least sufficiently offputting to disengage (I removed the rest of my
> > > response/suggestions).
> > >
> > > -- Lodewijk
> > >
> > > On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 9:34 PM Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]
> > > >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hoi,
> > > > Kiwix and off line Wikipedia did exist at the start of Wikipedia Zero.
> > > It
> > > > is great that you brought some to Africa but you do not scale and it is
> > > not
> > > > a study into the effects of what the effects are of terminating Wikipedia
> > > > Zero.
> > >
> > >
> > > > No idea what "Starlink"  is
> > >
> > >
> > > https://lmgtfy.com/?q=starlink&s=l
> > >
> > >
> > > > but it is not a reality for a few more years..
> > > > It sounds like we have thrown all these kids under the bus but hey, we
> > > have
> > > > plan. A plan/action is having our own caches in Africa and providing edit
> > > > and read capabilities for all who care to use it... and then measure the
> > > > extend it helps us recover from our Wikipedia Zero public.
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >        GerardM
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, 26 Nov 2019 at 02:48, James Heilman <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > We have offline Wikipedia. I have shipped devices to Kinshasa, and
> > > > > they arrived :-)
> > > > >
> > > > > Of course they do not at all address the need for two way
> > > communication.
> > > > >
> > > > > I am hoping Starlink will help when it comes online in a few years.
> > > > >
> > > > > James
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 12:19 AM Gerard Meijssen
> > > > > <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hoi,
> > > > > > The BBC shows how dramatically expensive internet is in Africa.. For
> > > in
> > > > > my
> > > > > > opinion local political reasons Wikipedia Zero has terminated. That
> > > is
> > > > ok
> > > > > > up to a point; the point being that we understand the consequences
> > > from
> > > > > > this action.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Given that our data is NOT local, people have to pay a premium. What
> > > > are
> > > > > we
> > > > > > going to do to compensate for expensive Wikipedia that replaced
> > > > Wikipedia
> > > > > > Zero? Did we study the effects or are we not interested in the
> > > > > consequences
> > > > > > of our actions?
> > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > >        GerardM
> > > > > >
> > > > > > https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-50516888
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > James Heilman
> > > > > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> > --
> > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> > https://www.avg.com
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>



--
James Heilman
MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian

_______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Remember Wikipedia Zero.. Where is the research about the effects of its demise?

jmh649
Sending on behalf of Douglas as his message did not make it through:

"Hi everyone,

James is right about South Africa. Although there is a strong appetite
for Wikipedia Zero in South Africa (and surrounding countries as well
I would bet) there were some unexpected hurdles encountered here. The
appetite was strong enough for a class of school children in Cape Town
to write an open letter calling for it that the WMF made a video
about. We also go two of those school children to give a speech at
Wikimania 2018. Unfortunately this was unsuccessful in getting real
progress on zero rating Wikipedia in South Africa.

The back story is that the major telecoms firms in South Africa just
did not see the point of zero rating Wikipedia even though it would
give them a competitive advantage over other South African telecoms
firms. This is mostly because the telecom sector in South Africa is a
duopoly of effectively two colluding companies that practice what I
would call a type of exploitative pricing.

The closest we came to getting Zero rating in South Africa was a
response from one of the telecom companies (MTN) to the open letter
from the school children back in 2014. MTN agreed to zero rate
Wikipedia and made a video about it (now taken down I see) to get some
free media off of it. However, what they did not tell people as that
Wikipedia was zero rated only around schools, during school hours, and
only on devices running MTN's proprietary version of the Opera
browser. Since school kids are typically not allowed to us cell phones
at school in South Africa this basically meant that almost no one got
to get access to zero rated Wikipedia.

In South Africa's case I feel that there is still a great need and
demand for zero rated Wikipedia. That is why I am supportive of
another effort to push for getting local telecom companies to zero
rate it. However, I also feel that the South African telecom companies
are still suck in their profit-maximising oligopolic collusion
orientated mind set. As such I think we need to change the narrative
in South Africa around access to knowledge to get them to change their
mind set which is a bigger challenge. However the high cost of data in
South Africa combined with the "Data Must Fall" movement has created a
friendlier environment for us. So I feel we should at the very least
'ask again' if we can get Wikipedia zero rated or at least restart the
conversation to do that.

Regards,

Douglas."

On Sun, Dec 1, 2019 at 4:48 PM James Heilman <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> The offline apps have also been downloaded 100 of thousands of times
> mostly from people in LMIC.
>
> Wikipedia Zero faced the controversial about net neutrality. And thus
> we were legally banned from continuing in India.
>
> Douglas Scott and I discussed the effects of the program in South
> Africa. Have cc'ed him to comment further but basically it sounded not
> all that great due to all the further limitations that were added by
> the telecoms.
>
> James
>
> On Sun, Dec 1, 2019 at 4:25 PM James Salsman <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Kul,
> >
> > Would you please send a few or more paragraph description of the
> > accomplishments and costs of the Wikipedia Zero program to the
> > wikimedia-l list?
> >
> > I also would love to see it back. The concerns about zero rating
> > service abuse are real, but they did not apply to WZ no matter how
> > many people implied they did at the time.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Jim
> >
> > On Sun, Dec 1, 2019 at 4:13 AM Peter Southwood
> > <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > Gerhard,
> > > I am also interested in what the impact of Wikipedia Zero was, but it is not obvious to me how it would be measured.
> > > The board members are unlikely to have personally researched this, but might know if there is or was a project and if so what they are or were trying to measure. Equally, someone from WMF might be able to report on what has been or is being done in this regard. It is also possible that nothing has been done, or someone who does not read this list is working on it.
> > > If anyone reads this and can enlighten us, either to whether it is an ongoing project, has been done and the information is available somewhere, or nobody is known to be working on it, please let us know.
> > > Anyone who has ideas on how it could be measured or why it can't is also welcome to comment.
> > > Cheers,
> > > Peter
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Gerard Meijssen
> > > Sent: 01 December 2019 08:19
> > > To: Lodewijk Gelauf; Wikimedia Mailing List
> > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Remember Wikipedia Zero.. Where is the research about the effects of its demise?
> > >
> > > Lodewijk,
> > > What I asked for is: do we understand what the impact was of the Wikipedia
> > > Zero project. In the answer of James, a board member of the WMF someone who
> > > could know, there is nothing that answers that question. All the answer
> > > does is deflect the question to something else. A notion that it is "not
> > > that bad because we have these other things". These things we had before
> > > Wikipedia Zero, they are not Wikipedia and they do not scale.
> > >
> > > What I have noticed is that once consensus has been reached, we do not want
> > > to be confronted with the consequences of our actions. Wikipedia Zero has
> > > damaged our outreach and what the BBC info reminds us of is that Internet,
> > > the cost of Internet, is not comparable in Africa with what we are used to.
> > > It means that we no longer reach the girls and boys in Soweto as we showed
> > > in our film clip at the Erasmus award.
> > >
> > > We do not cover Africa properly, we do not need to seek consensus about
> > > this, that is easily to be shown. Our focus on outreach is in America, then
> > > Europe, then the rest of the world and there is Africa. From the moment we
> > > stopped Wikipedia Zero, we have invested heavily in infrastructure in
> > > Africa, the organisational presence in the USA is now such that it rivals
> > > Wikimania and is used as an excuse by some to even dismantle Wikimania. As
> > > an organisation, a movement the "centre periphery" model is alive and well.
> > > We happily embrace Burke's peerage in Wikidata and we balk at the fact that
> > > covering science takes resources away from pet projects.
> > >
> > > You tell me to be constructive and here I lay out what the situation is.
> > > How can you be constructive as our movement does not support science, the
> > > people who need our information most are disenfranchised because we do not
> > > cover them, support them in an equal manner.
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, 1 Dec 2019 at 04:31, effe iets anders <[hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi Gerard,
> > > >
> > > > It would be great if you could keep a slightly more constructive tone in
> > > > your messages. On one hand, you seem genuinely interested to help access to
> > > > free knowledge in Africa, but in your second email, you seem to jump (after
> > > > one response) to conclusions already. If you like to get real responses to
> > > > your emails, you may want to try a more constructive attitude. For me, it
> > > > is at least sufficiently offputting to disengage (I removed the rest of my
> > > > response/suggestions).
> > > >
> > > > -- Lodewijk
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 9:34 PM Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]
> > > > >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hoi,
> > > > > Kiwix and off line Wikipedia did exist at the start of Wikipedia Zero.
> > > > It
> > > > > is great that you brought some to Africa but you do not scale and it is
> > > > not
> > > > > a study into the effects of what the effects are of terminating Wikipedia
> > > > > Zero.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > No idea what "Starlink"  is
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > https://lmgtfy.com/?q=starlink&s=l
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > but it is not a reality for a few more years..
> > > > > It sounds like we have thrown all these kids under the bus but hey, we
> > > > have
> > > > > plan. A plan/action is having our own caches in Africa and providing edit
> > > > > and read capabilities for all who care to use it... and then measure the
> > > > > extend it helps us recover from our Wikipedia Zero public.
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > >        GerardM
> > > > >
> > > > > On Tue, 26 Nov 2019 at 02:48, James Heilman <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > We have offline Wikipedia. I have shipped devices to Kinshasa, and
> > > > > > they arrived :-)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Of course they do not at all address the need for two way
> > > > communication.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I am hoping Starlink will help when it comes online in a few years.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > James
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 12:19 AM Gerard Meijssen
> > > > > > <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hoi,
> > > > > > > The BBC shows how dramatically expensive internet is in Africa.. For
> > > > in
> > > > > > my
> > > > > > > opinion local political reasons Wikipedia Zero has terminated. That
> > > > is
> > > > > ok
> > > > > > > up to a point; the point being that we understand the consequences
> > > > from
> > > > > > > this action.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Given that our data is NOT local, people have to pay a premium. What
> > > > > are
> > > > > > we
> > > > > > > going to do to compensate for expensive Wikipedia that replaced
> > > > > Wikipedia
> > > > > > > Zero? Did we study the effects or are we not interested in the
> > > > > > consequences
> > > > > > > of our actions?
> > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > >        GerardM
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-50516888
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > James Heilman
> > > > > > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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> > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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> > >
> > > --
> > > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> > > https://www.avg.com
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
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>
>
> --
> James Heilman
> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian



--
James Heilman
MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Remember Wikipedia Zero.. Where is the research about the effects of its demise?

Lane Rasberry
I would be in favor of getting a Wikipedia Zero post mortem for lessons
learned. The idea was inspiring, and it still sounds like a good idea, but
so far as I know the discourse about what worked and what failed to work
never got published or made it to wiki. One barrier in Wikipedia Zero that
I felt was that it was a WMF staff project and much less a Wikimedia
community project. In general, community projects require and produce
documentation, and in general, WMF staff produce much less documentation.
There can be tension for wiki community members to publish any
documentation of projects where WMF paid staff are engaged.

In the 2018 WMF annual report the Internet in a Box project is the top
listed WMF accomplishment for the year.
https://wikimediafoundation.org/about/2018-annual-report/
To me, it seems like Internet in a Box is the closest thing to a focus for
increased LMIC wiki access that the WMF has right now.

There are lots of possible development directions and I still think the
conversation is open for advancement.


On Mon, Dec 2, 2019 at 11:38 AM James Heilman <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Sending on behalf of Douglas as his message did not make it through:
>
> "Hi everyone,
>
> James is right about South Africa. Although there is a strong appetite
> for Wikipedia Zero in South Africa (and surrounding countries as well
> I would bet) there were some unexpected hurdles encountered here. The
> appetite was strong enough for a class of school children in Cape Town
> to write an open letter calling for it that the WMF made a video
> about. We also go two of those school children to give a speech at
> Wikimania 2018. Unfortunately this was unsuccessful in getting real
> progress on zero rating Wikipedia in South Africa.
>
> The back story is that the major telecoms firms in South Africa just
> did not see the point of zero rating Wikipedia even though it would
> give them a competitive advantage over other South African telecoms
> firms. This is mostly because the telecom sector in South Africa is a
> duopoly of effectively two colluding companies that practice what I
> would call a type of exploitative pricing.
>
> The closest we came to getting Zero rating in South Africa was a
> response from one of the telecom companies (MTN) to the open letter
> from the school children back in 2014. MTN agreed to zero rate
> Wikipedia and made a video about it (now taken down I see) to get some
> free media off of it. However, what they did not tell people as that
> Wikipedia was zero rated only around schools, during school hours, and
> only on devices running MTN's proprietary version of the Opera
> browser. Since school kids are typically not allowed to us cell phones
> at school in South Africa this basically meant that almost no one got
> to get access to zero rated Wikipedia.
>
> In South Africa's case I feel that there is still a great need and
> demand for zero rated Wikipedia. That is why I am supportive of
> another effort to push for getting local telecom companies to zero
> rate it. However, I also feel that the South African telecom companies
> are still suck in their profit-maximising oligopolic collusion
> orientated mind set. As such I think we need to change the narrative
> in South Africa around access to knowledge to get them to change their
> mind set which is a bigger challenge. However the high cost of data in
> South Africa combined with the "Data Must Fall" movement has created a
> friendlier environment for us. So I feel we should at the very least
> 'ask again' if we can get Wikipedia zero rated or at least restart the
> conversation to do that.
>
> Regards,
>
> Douglas."
>
> On Sun, Dec 1, 2019 at 4:48 PM James Heilman <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > The offline apps have also been downloaded 100 of thousands of times
> > mostly from people in LMIC.
> >
> > Wikipedia Zero faced the controversial about net neutrality. And thus
> > we were legally banned from continuing in India.
> >
> > Douglas Scott and I discussed the effects of the program in South
> > Africa. Have cc'ed him to comment further but basically it sounded not
> > all that great due to all the further limitations that were added by
> > the telecoms.
> >
> > James
> >
> > On Sun, Dec 1, 2019 at 4:25 PM James Salsman <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > Kul,
> > >
> > > Would you please send a few or more paragraph description of the
> > > accomplishments and costs of the Wikipedia Zero program to the
> > > wikimedia-l list?
> > >
> > > I also would love to see it back. The concerns about zero rating
> > > service abuse are real, but they did not apply to WZ no matter how
> > > many people implied they did at the time.
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > > Jim
> > >
> > > On Sun, Dec 1, 2019 at 4:13 AM Peter Southwood
> > > <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Gerhard,
> > > > I am also interested in what the impact of Wikipedia Zero was, but
> it is not obvious to me how it would be measured.
> > > > The board members are unlikely to have personally researched this,
> but might know if there is or was a project and if so what they are or were
> trying to measure. Equally, someone from WMF might be able to report on
> what has been or is being done in this regard. It is also possible that
> nothing has been done, or someone who does not read this list is working on
> it.
> > > > If anyone reads this and can enlighten us, either to whether it is
> an ongoing project, has been done and the information is available
> somewhere, or nobody is known to be working on it, please let us know.
> > > > Anyone who has ideas on how it could be measured or why it can't is
> also welcome to comment.
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > Peter
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]]
> On Behalf Of Gerard Meijssen
> > > > Sent: 01 December 2019 08:19
> > > > To: Lodewijk Gelauf; Wikimedia Mailing List
> > > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Remember Wikipedia Zero.. Where is the
> research about the effects of its demise?
> > > >
> > > > Lodewijk,
> > > > What I asked for is: do we understand what the impact was of the
> Wikipedia
> > > > Zero project. In the answer of James, a board member of the WMF
> someone who
> > > > could know, there is nothing that answers that question. All the
> answer
> > > > does is deflect the question to something else. A notion that it is
> "not
> > > > that bad because we have these other things". These things we had
> before
> > > > Wikipedia Zero, they are not Wikipedia and they do not scale.
> > > >
> > > > What I have noticed is that once consensus has been reached, we do
> not want
> > > > to be confronted with the consequences of our actions. Wikipedia
> Zero has
> > > > damaged our outreach and what the BBC info reminds us of is that
> Internet,
> > > > the cost of Internet, is not comparable in Africa with what we are
> used to.
> > > > It means that we no longer reach the girls and boys in Soweto as we
> showed
> > > > in our film clip at the Erasmus award.
> > > >
> > > > We do not cover Africa properly, we do not need to seek consensus
> about
> > > > this, that is easily to be shown. Our focus on outreach is in
> America, then
> > > > Europe, then the rest of the world and there is Africa. From the
> moment we
> > > > stopped Wikipedia Zero, we have invested heavily in infrastructure in
> > > > Africa, the organisational presence in the USA is now such that it
> rivals
> > > > Wikimania and is used as an excuse by some to even dismantle
> Wikimania. As
> > > > an organisation, a movement the "centre periphery" model is alive
> and well.
> > > > We happily embrace Burke's peerage in Wikidata and we balk at the
> fact that
> > > > covering science takes resources away from pet projects.
> > > >
> > > > You tell me to be constructive and here I lay out what the situation
> is.
> > > > How can you be constructive as our movement does not support
> science, the
> > > > people who need our information most are disenfranchised because we
> do not
> > > > cover them, support them in an equal manner.
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, 1 Dec 2019 at 04:31, effe iets anders <
> [hidden email]>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi Gerard,
> > > > >
> > > > > It would be great if you could keep a slightly more constructive
> tone in
> > > > > your messages. On one hand, you seem genuinely interested to help
> access to
> > > > > free knowledge in Africa, but in your second email, you seem to
> jump (after
> > > > > one response) to conclusions already. If you like to get real
> responses to
> > > > > your emails, you may want to try a more constructive attitude. For
> me, it
> > > > > is at least sufficiently offputting to disengage (I removed the
> rest of my
> > > > > response/suggestions).
> > > > >
> > > > > -- Lodewijk
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 9:34 PM Gerard Meijssen <
> [hidden email]
> > > > > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hoi,
> > > > > > Kiwix and off line Wikipedia did exist at the start of Wikipedia
> Zero.
> > > > > It
> > > > > > is great that you brought some to Africa but you do not scale
> and it is
> > > > > not
> > > > > > a study into the effects of what the effects are of terminating
> Wikipedia
> > > > > > Zero.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > No idea what "Starlink"  is
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > https://lmgtfy.com/?q=starlink&s=l
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > but it is not a reality for a few more years..
> > > > > > It sounds like we have thrown all these kids under the bus but
> hey, we
> > > > > have
> > > > > > plan. A plan/action is having our own caches in Africa and
> providing edit
> > > > > > and read capabilities for all who care to use it... and then
> measure the
> > > > > > extend it helps us recover from our Wikipedia Zero public.
> > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > >        GerardM
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Tue, 26 Nov 2019 at 02:48, James Heilman <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > We have offline Wikipedia. I have shipped devices to Kinshasa,
> and
> > > > > > > they arrived :-)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Of course they do not at all address the need for two way
> > > > > communication.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I am hoping Starlink will help when it comes online in a few
> years.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > James
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 12:19 AM Gerard Meijssen
> > > > > > > <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Hoi,
> > > > > > > > The BBC shows how dramatically expensive internet is in
> Africa.. For
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > my
> > > > > > > > opinion local political reasons Wikipedia Zero has
> terminated. That
> > > > > is
> > > > > > ok
> > > > > > > > up to a point; the point being that we understand the
> consequences
> > > > > from
> > > > > > > > this action.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Given that our data is NOT local, people have to pay a
> premium. What
> > > > > > are
> > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > going to do to compensate for expensive Wikipedia that
> replaced
> > > > > > Wikipedia
> > > > > > > > Zero? Did we study the effects or are we not interested in
> the
> > > > > > > consequences
> > > > > > > > of our actions?
> > > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > >        GerardM
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-50516888
> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > James Heilman
> > > > > > > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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> > > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
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> > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
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> > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:
> [hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> > > > https://www.avg.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
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> [hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
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> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
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> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > James Heilman
> > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
>
>
>
> --
> James Heilman
> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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--
Lane Rasberry
user:bluerasberry on Wikipedia
206.801.0814
[hidden email]
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Remember Wikipedia Zero.. Where is the research about the effects of its demise?

Gerard Meijssen-3
Hoi,
Sorry but really? Is something not good enough because "the community" did
not think of it?? Really, if there is one part of our movement totally
involved in what we do it IS the staff of the Wikimedia Foundation. They
maintain their distance and let the community do its thing.. they are to be
praised for that

There are no community efforts that are focused on how to get our data to
the people that truly need it. There is no attention from the community to
get our data into Africa or Asia for that matter, what happened is all
thanks to staff efforts.

What considers itself community is hardly cognisant of what is needed
elsewhere.
Thanks,
     GerardM

On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 at 19:20, Lane Rasberry <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I would be in favor of getting a Wikipedia Zero post mortem for lessons
> learned. The idea was inspiring, and it still sounds like a good idea, but
> so far as I know the discourse about what worked and what failed to work
> never got published or made it to wiki. One barrier in Wikipedia Zero that
> I felt was that it was a WMF staff project and much less a Wikimedia
> community project. In general, community projects require and produce
> documentation, and in general, WMF staff produce much less documentation.
> There can be tension for wiki community members to publish any
> documentation of projects where WMF paid staff are engaged.
>
> In the 2018 WMF annual report the Internet in a Box project is the top
> listed WMF accomplishment for the year.
> https://wikimediafoundation.org/about/2018-annual-report/
> To me, it seems like Internet in a Box is the closest thing to a focus for
> increased LMIC wiki access that the WMF has right now.
>
> There are lots of possible development directions and I still think the
> conversation is open for advancement.
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 2, 2019 at 11:38 AM James Heilman <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Sending on behalf of Douglas as his message did not make it through:
> >
> > "Hi everyone,
> >
> > James is right about South Africa. Although there is a strong appetite
> > for Wikipedia Zero in South Africa (and surrounding countries as well
> > I would bet) there were some unexpected hurdles encountered here. The
> > appetite was strong enough for a class of school children in Cape Town
> > to write an open letter calling for it that the WMF made a video
> > about. We also go two of those school children to give a speech at
> > Wikimania 2018. Unfortunately this was unsuccessful in getting real
> > progress on zero rating Wikipedia in South Africa.
> >
> > The back story is that the major telecoms firms in South Africa just
> > did not see the point of zero rating Wikipedia even though it would
> > give them a competitive advantage over other South African telecoms
> > firms. This is mostly because the telecom sector in South Africa is a
> > duopoly of effectively two colluding companies that practice what I
> > would call a type of exploitative pricing.
> >
> > The closest we came to getting Zero rating in South Africa was a
> > response from one of the telecom companies (MTN) to the open letter
> > from the school children back in 2014. MTN agreed to zero rate
> > Wikipedia and made a video about it (now taken down I see) to get some
> > free media off of it. However, what they did not tell people as that
> > Wikipedia was zero rated only around schools, during school hours, and
> > only on devices running MTN's proprietary version of the Opera
> > browser. Since school kids are typically not allowed to us cell phones
> > at school in South Africa this basically meant that almost no one got
> > to get access to zero rated Wikipedia.
> >
> > In South Africa's case I feel that there is still a great need and
> > demand for zero rated Wikipedia. That is why I am supportive of
> > another effort to push for getting local telecom companies to zero
> > rate it. However, I also feel that the South African telecom companies
> > are still suck in their profit-maximising oligopolic collusion
> > orientated mind set. As such I think we need to change the narrative
> > in South Africa around access to knowledge to get them to change their
> > mind set which is a bigger challenge. However the high cost of data in
> > South Africa combined with the "Data Must Fall" movement has created a
> > friendlier environment for us. So I feel we should at the very least
> > 'ask again' if we can get Wikipedia zero rated or at least restart the
> > conversation to do that.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Douglas."
> >
> > On Sun, Dec 1, 2019 at 4:48 PM James Heilman <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > The offline apps have also been downloaded 100 of thousands of times
> > > mostly from people in LMIC.
> > >
> > > Wikipedia Zero faced the controversial about net neutrality. And thus
> > > we were legally banned from continuing in India.
> > >
> > > Douglas Scott and I discussed the effects of the program in South
> > > Africa. Have cc'ed him to comment further but basically it sounded not
> > > all that great due to all the further limitations that were added by
> > > the telecoms.
> > >
> > > James
> > >
> > > On Sun, Dec 1, 2019 at 4:25 PM James Salsman <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Kul,
> > > >
> > > > Would you please send a few or more paragraph description of the
> > > > accomplishments and costs of the Wikipedia Zero program to the
> > > > wikimedia-l list?
> > > >
> > > > I also would love to see it back. The concerns about zero rating
> > > > service abuse are real, but they did not apply to WZ no matter how
> > > > many people implied they did at the time.
> > > >
> > > > Best regards,
> > > > Jim
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, Dec 1, 2019 at 4:13 AM Peter Southwood
> > > > <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Gerhard,
> > > > > I am also interested in what the impact of Wikipedia Zero was, but
> > it is not obvious to me how it would be measured.
> > > > > The board members are unlikely to have personally researched this,
> > but might know if there is or was a project and if so what they are or
> were
> > trying to measure. Equally, someone from WMF might be able to report on
> > what has been or is being done in this regard. It is also possible that
> > nothing has been done, or someone who does not read this list is working
> on
> > it.
> > > > > If anyone reads this and can enlighten us, either to whether it is
> > an ongoing project, has been done and the information is available
> > somewhere, or nobody is known to be working on it, please let us know.
> > > > > Anyone who has ideas on how it could be measured or why it can't is
> > also welcome to comment.
> > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > Peter
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]]
> > On Behalf Of Gerard Meijssen
> > > > > Sent: 01 December 2019 08:19
> > > > > To: Lodewijk Gelauf; Wikimedia Mailing List
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Remember Wikipedia Zero.. Where is the
> > research about the effects of its demise?
> > > > >
> > > > > Lodewijk,
> > > > > What I asked for is: do we understand what the impact was of the
> > Wikipedia
> > > > > Zero project. In the answer of James, a board member of the WMF
> > someone who
> > > > > could know, there is nothing that answers that question. All the
> > answer
> > > > > does is deflect the question to something else. A notion that it is
> > "not
> > > > > that bad because we have these other things". These things we had
> > before
> > > > > Wikipedia Zero, they are not Wikipedia and they do not scale.
> > > > >
> > > > > What I have noticed is that once consensus has been reached, we do
> > not want
> > > > > to be confronted with the consequences of our actions. Wikipedia
> > Zero has
> > > > > damaged our outreach and what the BBC info reminds us of is that
> > Internet,
> > > > > the cost of Internet, is not comparable in Africa with what we are
> > used to.
> > > > > It means that we no longer reach the girls and boys in Soweto as we
> > showed
> > > > > in our film clip at the Erasmus award.
> > > > >
> > > > > We do not cover Africa properly, we do not need to seek consensus
> > about
> > > > > this, that is easily to be shown. Our focus on outreach is in
> > America, then
> > > > > Europe, then the rest of the world and there is Africa. From the
> > moment we
> > > > > stopped Wikipedia Zero, we have invested heavily in infrastructure
> in
> > > > > Africa, the organisational presence in the USA is now such that it
> > rivals
> > > > > Wikimania and is used as an excuse by some to even dismantle
> > Wikimania. As
> > > > > an organisation, a movement the "centre periphery" model is alive
> > and well.
> > > > > We happily embrace Burke's peerage in Wikidata and we balk at the
> > fact that
> > > > > covering science takes resources away from pet projects.
> > > > >
> > > > > You tell me to be constructive and here I lay out what the
> situation
> > is.
> > > > > How can you be constructive as our movement does not support
> > science, the
> > > > > people who need our information most are disenfranchised because we
> > do not
> > > > > cover them, support them in an equal manner.
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sun, 1 Dec 2019 at 04:31, effe iets anders <
> > [hidden email]>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Gerard,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It would be great if you could keep a slightly more constructive
> > tone in
> > > > > > your messages. On one hand, you seem genuinely interested to help
> > access to
> > > > > > free knowledge in Africa, but in your second email, you seem to
> > jump (after
> > > > > > one response) to conclusions already. If you like to get real
> > responses to
> > > > > > your emails, you may want to try a more constructive attitude.
> For
> > me, it
> > > > > > is at least sufficiently offputting to disengage (I removed the
> > rest of my
> > > > > > response/suggestions).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -- Lodewijk
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 9:34 PM Gerard Meijssen <
> > [hidden email]
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hoi,
> > > > > > > Kiwix and off line Wikipedia did exist at the start of
> Wikipedia
> > Zero.
> > > > > > It
> > > > > > > is great that you brought some to Africa but you do not scale
> > and it is
> > > > > > not
> > > > > > > a study into the effects of what the effects are of terminating
> > Wikipedia
> > > > > > > Zero.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > No idea what "Starlink"  is
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > https://lmgtfy.com/?q=starlink&s=l
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > but it is not a reality for a few more years..
> > > > > > > It sounds like we have thrown all these kids under the bus but
> > hey, we
> > > > > > have
> > > > > > > plan. A plan/action is having our own caches in Africa and
> > providing edit
> > > > > > > and read capabilities for all who care to use it... and then
> > measure the
> > > > > > > extend it helps us recover from our Wikipedia Zero public.
> > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > >        GerardM
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Tue, 26 Nov 2019 at 02:48, James Heilman <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > We have offline Wikipedia. I have shipped devices to
> Kinshasa,
> > and
> > > > > > > > they arrived :-)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Of course they do not at all address the need for two way
> > > > > > communication.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I am hoping Starlink will help when it comes online in a few
> > years.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > James
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 12:19 AM Gerard Meijssen
> > > > > > > > <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Hoi,
> > > > > > > > > The BBC shows how dramatically expensive internet is in
> > Africa.. For
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > my
> > > > > > > > > opinion local political reasons Wikipedia Zero has
> > terminated. That
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > ok
> > > > > > > > > up to a point; the point being that we understand the
> > consequences
> > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > this action.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Given that our data is NOT local, people have to pay a
> > premium. What
> > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > > going to do to compensate for expensive Wikipedia that
> > replaced
> > > > > > > Wikipedia
> > > > > > > > > Zero? Did we study the effects or are we not interested in
> > the
> > > > > > > > consequences
> > > > > > > > > of our actions?
> > > > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > > >        GerardM
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-50516888
> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > > > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > James Heilman
> > > > > > > > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:
> > [hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> > > > > https://www.avg.com
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:
> > [hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > James Heilman
> > > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > James Heilman
> > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
>
> --
> Lane Rasberry
> user:bluerasberry on Wikipedia
> 206.801.0814
> [hidden email]
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Remember Wikipedia Zero.. Where is the research about the effects of its demise?

Andy Mabbett-2
On Tue, 3 Dec 2019 at 06:38, Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> There is no attention from the community to get our data into Africa
> or Asia for that matter, what happened is all thanks to staff efforts.

In 2015, as a volunteer, I gave a keynote presentation on Wikidata's
sue of authority control identifiers, at the World Digital Library's
Arab Peninsula Regional Group conference in Doha

Also in 2015, I visited Tunis and Monastir, to speak as a volunteer at
WikiArabia, which was attended by both African and Asian delegates. I
also gave talks to university students, met with GLAM professionals,
and was interviewed a national radio station.

In 2016, I spent several days, as a volunteer, training Wikimedia
volunteers in Jakarta to edit Wikidata, as well as giving a talk on
Wikidata to staff of a the education ministry, with which they
collaborate.

In 2017, I visited Cairo, as a volunteer, to give a workshop on
Wikidata at WikiArabia.

In 2018, I and several other volunteers spoke at a GLAM conference in
Yerevan, and gave talks and training workshops for Wikimedia
volunteers there.

Also in 2018, while in Cape Town for Wikimania, as a volunteer, I
assisted at Wikidata workshop for South African librarians.

Near the end of 2018, I visited eastern Istanbul to give a guest
lecture on Wikidata to students at Üsküdar University. And yes, I did
so as a volunteer.

In 2019, I introduced academics from two South African Universities,
whom I met in England, to volunteers from WMZA. They are now
collaborating on introducing Wikimedia projects into further education
in that country.

I maintain ongoing relationships and online collaborations with many
of the African and Asian Wikimedians I met on my travels.

Your statement, made in ignorance of the facts, is offensive not only
to me, but chiefly to the many other volunteers who are busy growing
Wikidata in Africa and Asia, both as a result of my voluntary
activities and otherwise.


--
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Remember Wikipedia Zero.. Where is the research about the effects of its demise?

Andy Mabbett-2
On Tue, 3 Dec 2019 at 13:03, Andy Mabbett <[hidden email]> wrote:

[...]
> Your statement, made in ignorance of the facts, is offensive not only
> to me, but chiefly to the many other volunteers who are busy growing
> Wikidata in Africa and Asia, both as a result of my voluntary
> activities and otherwise.

It's been pointed out to me that I misread the email to which I
replied; I apologise, and withdraw my comments.

--
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Remember Wikipedia Zero.. Where is the research about the effects of its demise?

Peter Southwood
In reply to this post by Gerard Meijssen-3
Gerard,
Was this intended as a response to Lane?
If so, I do not understand what point you are trying to make.
Cheers,
Peter

-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Gerard Meijssen
Sent: 03 December 2019 08:39
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Remember Wikipedia Zero.. Where is the research about the effects of its demise?

Hoi,
Sorry but really? Is something not good enough because "the community" did
not think of it?? Really, if there is one part of our movement totally
involved in what we do it IS the staff of the Wikimedia Foundation. They
maintain their distance and let the community do its thing.. they are to be
praised for that

There are no community efforts that are focused on how to get our data to
the people that truly need it. There is no attention from the community to
get our data into Africa or Asia for that matter, what happened is all
thanks to staff efforts.

What considers itself community is hardly cognisant of what is needed
elsewhere.
Thanks,
     GerardM

On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 at 19:20, Lane Rasberry <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I would be in favor of getting a Wikipedia Zero post mortem for lessons
> learned. The idea was inspiring, and it still sounds like a good idea, but
> so far as I know the discourse about what worked and what failed to work
> never got published or made it to wiki. One barrier in Wikipedia Zero that
> I felt was that it was a WMF staff project and much less a Wikimedia
> community project. In general, community projects require and produce
> documentation, and in general, WMF staff produce much less documentation.
> There can be tension for wiki community members to publish any
> documentation of projects where WMF paid staff are engaged.
>
> In the 2018 WMF annual report the Internet in a Box project is the top
> listed WMF accomplishment for the year.
> https://wikimediafoundation.org/about/2018-annual-report/
> To me, it seems like Internet in a Box is the closest thing to a focus for
> increased LMIC wiki access that the WMF has right now.
>
> There are lots of possible development directions and I still think the
> conversation is open for advancement.
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 2, 2019 at 11:38 AM James Heilman <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Sending on behalf of Douglas as his message did not make it through:
> >
> > "Hi everyone,
> >
> > James is right about South Africa. Although there is a strong appetite
> > for Wikipedia Zero in South Africa (and surrounding countries as well
> > I would bet) there were some unexpected hurdles encountered here. The
> > appetite was strong enough for a class of school children in Cape Town
> > to write an open letter calling for it that the WMF made a video
> > about. We also go two of those school children to give a speech at
> > Wikimania 2018. Unfortunately this was unsuccessful in getting real
> > progress on zero rating Wikipedia in South Africa.
> >
> > The back story is that the major telecoms firms in South Africa just
> > did not see the point of zero rating Wikipedia even though it would
> > give them a competitive advantage over other South African telecoms
> > firms. This is mostly because the telecom sector in South Africa is a
> > duopoly of effectively two colluding companies that practice what I
> > would call a type of exploitative pricing.
> >
> > The closest we came to getting Zero rating in South Africa was a
> > response from one of the telecom companies (MTN) to the open letter
> > from the school children back in 2014. MTN agreed to zero rate
> > Wikipedia and made a video about it (now taken down I see) to get some
> > free media off of it. However, what they did not tell people as that
> > Wikipedia was zero rated only around schools, during school hours, and
> > only on devices running MTN's proprietary version of the Opera
> > browser. Since school kids are typically not allowed to us cell phones
> > at school in South Africa this basically meant that almost no one got
> > to get access to zero rated Wikipedia.
> >
> > In South Africa's case I feel that there is still a great need and
> > demand for zero rated Wikipedia. That is why I am supportive of
> > another effort to push for getting local telecom companies to zero
> > rate it. However, I also feel that the South African telecom companies
> > are still suck in their profit-maximising oligopolic collusion
> > orientated mind set. As such I think we need to change the narrative
> > in South Africa around access to knowledge to get them to change their
> > mind set which is a bigger challenge. However the high cost of data in
> > South Africa combined with the "Data Must Fall" movement has created a
> > friendlier environment for us. So I feel we should at the very least
> > 'ask again' if we can get Wikipedia zero rated or at least restart the
> > conversation to do that.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Douglas."
> >
> > On Sun, Dec 1, 2019 at 4:48 PM James Heilman <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > The offline apps have also been downloaded 100 of thousands of times
> > > mostly from people in LMIC.
> > >
> > > Wikipedia Zero faced the controversial about net neutrality. And thus
> > > we were legally banned from continuing in India.
> > >
> > > Douglas Scott and I discussed the effects of the program in South
> > > Africa. Have cc'ed him to comment further but basically it sounded not
> > > all that great due to all the further limitations that were added by
> > > the telecoms.
> > >
> > > James
> > >
> > > On Sun, Dec 1, 2019 at 4:25 PM James Salsman <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Kul,
> > > >
> > > > Would you please send a few or more paragraph description of the
> > > > accomplishments and costs of the Wikipedia Zero program to the
> > > > wikimedia-l list?
> > > >
> > > > I also would love to see it back. The concerns about zero rating
> > > > service abuse are real, but they did not apply to WZ no matter how
> > > > many people implied they did at the time.
> > > >
> > > > Best regards,
> > > > Jim
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, Dec 1, 2019 at 4:13 AM Peter Southwood
> > > > <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Gerhard,
> > > > > I am also interested in what the impact of Wikipedia Zero was, but
> > it is not obvious to me how it would be measured.
> > > > > The board members are unlikely to have personally researched this,
> > but might know if there is or was a project and if so what they are or
> were
> > trying to measure. Equally, someone from WMF might be able to report on
> > what has been or is being done in this regard. It is also possible that
> > nothing has been done, or someone who does not read this list is working
> on
> > it.
> > > > > If anyone reads this and can enlighten us, either to whether it is
> > an ongoing project, has been done and the information is available
> > somewhere, or nobody is known to be working on it, please let us know.
> > > > > Anyone who has ideas on how it could be measured or why it can't is
> > also welcome to comment.
> > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > Peter
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]]
> > On Behalf Of Gerard Meijssen
> > > > > Sent: 01 December 2019 08:19
> > > > > To: Lodewijk Gelauf; Wikimedia Mailing List
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Remember Wikipedia Zero.. Where is the
> > research about the effects of its demise?
> > > > >
> > > > > Lodewijk,
> > > > > What I asked for is: do we understand what the impact was of the
> > Wikipedia
> > > > > Zero project. In the answer of James, a board member of the WMF
> > someone who
> > > > > could know, there is nothing that answers that question. All the
> > answer
> > > > > does is deflect the question to something else. A notion that it is
> > "not
> > > > > that bad because we have these other things". These things we had
> > before
> > > > > Wikipedia Zero, they are not Wikipedia and they do not scale.
> > > > >
> > > > > What I have noticed is that once consensus has been reached, we do
> > not want
> > > > > to be confronted with the consequences of our actions. Wikipedia
> > Zero has
> > > > > damaged our outreach and what the BBC info reminds us of is that
> > Internet,
> > > > > the cost of Internet, is not comparable in Africa with what we are
> > used to.
> > > > > It means that we no longer reach the girls and boys in Soweto as we
> > showed
> > > > > in our film clip at the Erasmus award.
> > > > >
> > > > > We do not cover Africa properly, we do not need to seek consensus
> > about
> > > > > this, that is easily to be shown. Our focus on outreach is in
> > America, then
> > > > > Europe, then the rest of the world and there is Africa. From the
> > moment we
> > > > > stopped Wikipedia Zero, we have invested heavily in infrastructure
> in
> > > > > Africa, the organisational presence in the USA is now such that it
> > rivals
> > > > > Wikimania and is used as an excuse by some to even dismantle
> > Wikimania. As
> > > > > an organisation, a movement the "centre periphery" model is alive
> > and well.
> > > > > We happily embrace Burke's peerage in Wikidata and we balk at the
> > fact that
> > > > > covering science takes resources away from pet projects.
> > > > >
> > > > > You tell me to be constructive and here I lay out what the
> situation
> > is.
> > > > > How can you be constructive as our movement does not support
> > science, the
> > > > > people who need our information most are disenfranchised because we
> > do not
> > > > > cover them, support them in an equal manner.
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sun, 1 Dec 2019 at 04:31, effe iets anders <
> > [hidden email]>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Gerard,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It would be great if you could keep a slightly more constructive
> > tone in
> > > > > > your messages. On one hand, you seem genuinely interested to help
> > access to
> > > > > > free knowledge in Africa, but in your second email, you seem to
> > jump (after
> > > > > > one response) to conclusions already. If you like to get real
> > responses to
> > > > > > your emails, you may want to try a more constructive attitude.
> For
> > me, it
> > > > > > is at least sufficiently offputting to disengage (I removed the
> > rest of my
> > > > > > response/suggestions).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -- Lodewijk
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 9:34 PM Gerard Meijssen <
> > [hidden email]
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hoi,
> > > > > > > Kiwix and off line Wikipedia did exist at the start of
> Wikipedia
> > Zero.
> > > > > > It
> > > > > > > is great that you brought some to Africa but you do not scale
> > and it is
> > > > > > not
> > > > > > > a study into the effects of what the effects are of terminating
> > Wikipedia
> > > > > > > Zero.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > No idea what "Starlink"  is
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > https://lmgtfy.com/?q=starlink&s=l
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > but it is not a reality for a few more years..
> > > > > > > It sounds like we have thrown all these kids under the bus but
> > hey, we
> > > > > > have
> > > > > > > plan. A plan/action is having our own caches in Africa and
> > providing edit
> > > > > > > and read capabilities for all who care to use it... and then
> > measure the
> > > > > > > extend it helps us recover from our Wikipedia Zero public.
> > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > >        GerardM
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Tue, 26 Nov 2019 at 02:48, James Heilman <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > We have offline Wikipedia. I have shipped devices to
> Kinshasa,
> > and
> > > > > > > > they arrived :-)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Of course they do not at all address the need for two way
> > > > > > communication.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I am hoping Starlink will help when it comes online in a few
> > years.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > James
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 12:19 AM Gerard Meijssen
> > > > > > > > <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Hoi,
> > > > > > > > > The BBC shows how dramatically expensive internet is in
> > Africa.. For
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > my
> > > > > > > > > opinion local political reasons Wikipedia Zero has
> > terminated. That
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > ok
> > > > > > > > > up to a point; the point being that we understand the
> > consequences
> > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > this action.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Given that our data is NOT local, people have to pay a
> > premium. What
> > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > > going to do to compensate for expensive Wikipedia that
> > replaced
> > > > > > > Wikipedia
> > > > > > > > > Zero? Did we study the effects or are we not interested in
> > the
> > > > > > > > consequences
> > > > > > > > > of our actions?
> > > > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > > >        GerardM
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-50516888
> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > > > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > James Heilman
> > > > > > > > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
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> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> > > > > https://www.avg.com
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
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> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > James Heilman
> > > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > James Heilman
> > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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>
>
> --
> Lane Rasberry
> user:bluerasberry on Wikipedia
> 206.801.0814
> [hidden email]
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Remember Wikipedia Zero.. Where is the research about the effects of its demise?

James Salsman-2
In reply to this post by Gerard Meijssen-3
> There is some data at
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wikimedia_Foundation_Audiences_Metrics_%26_Insights_Q1_2018-19.pdf

"WP0 deactivated for Unitel Angola on June 29
Caused traffic for the entire country to drop
from ~20 million to ~4 million views/month"

But there was no drop at all in Kuwait. Can we get Wikipedia Zero for
only economically below average countries?

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