[Wikimedia-l] Requiring the interlinking of accounts involved with paid editing

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[Wikimedia-l] Requiring the interlinking of accounts involved with paid editing

jmh649
Have started a meta RfC regarding the above* here
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/interlinking_of_accounts_involved_with_paid_editing_to_decrease_impersonation>.*

This is to help address issues of impersonation of established Wikipedians
by paid editors.

Further thoughts appreciated. Best
--
James Heilman
MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian

The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Requiring the interlinking of accounts involved with paid editing

John Erling Blad
Sorry, bad idea. Can't be done and will only lead to stalking and
alienating users. (Or rather it can be done, but would imply leakage of
identifiable information to such a degree that it would put the involved
organizations on the front pages for weeks.)

John Erling Blad
/jeblad

On Wed, Sep 13, 2017 at 5:40 PM, James Heilman <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Have started a meta RfC regarding the above* here
> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/
> interlinking_of_accounts_involved_with_paid_editing_to_
> decrease_impersonation>.*
>
> This is to help address issues of impersonation of established Wikipedians
> by paid editors.
>
> Further thoughts appreciated. Best
> --
> James Heilman
> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
>
> The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
_______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Requiring the interlinking of accounts involved with paid editing

jmh649
Why? IMO it will protect users from being impersonated.

It will allow us to more easily have taken down Fivver and Upworks accounts
that are pretending to be established Wikipedians.

How would this leak anything? People involve with paid editor are already
required to disclose the intermediaries through which they work and this
does not change that.

James

On Wed, Sep 13, 2017 at 6:19 PM, John Erling Blad <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Sorry, bad idea. Can't be done and will only lead to stalking and
> alienating users. (Or rather it can be done, but would imply leakage of
> identifiable information to such a degree that it would put the involved
> organizations on the front pages for weeks.)
>
> John Erling Blad
> /jeblad
>
> On Wed, Sep 13, 2017 at 5:40 PM, James Heilman <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Have started a meta RfC regarding the above* here
> > <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/
> > interlinking_of_accounts_involved_with_paid_editing_to_
> > decrease_impersonation>.*
> >
> > This is to help address issues of impersonation of established
> Wikipedians
> > by paid editors.
> >
> > Further thoughts appreciated. Best
> > --
> > James Heilman
> > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> >
> > The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>




--
James Heilman
MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
_______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Requiring the interlinking of accounts involved with paid editing

John Erling Blad
Okey, I may have (or perhaps not) edited a page. Perhaps I have an account
on Upwork (or perhaps not). That page may have been edited because I had a
discussion with someone at Upwork (or perhaps not). I could also been
discussing editing the page at OTRS, but again, perhaps not.

How can you know that? Because I am "jeblad"? What if I am "honky donky" on
Wikipedia? Do you really believe that because someone said people doing
paid editing should say so actually do so?

From point b on your RfC "but yet there is no account on Wikipedia that
discloses that account", how do you plan on figuring out which account on
those two systems are the same? To identify the culprit you must connect
two dots, and you don't have enough information about neither of them.

I am on Upwork because a big and rather well-known organization asked me to
create an account. I have even edited pages! Yay! Go figure which one, and
why! ;p (To make it easy, their initials reads W-M-F, and no it was not
about Wikipedia-editing.)

I see all the postings from people that ask for help about their wikipedia
pages. People ask for help because the failure of the wikipedia-communities
to provide sufficient help. Going after the people that help them is not a
good solution, it is (sorry) a stupid solution. If someone ask for help,
then help them!


On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 2:22 AM, James Heilman <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Why? IMO it will protect users from being impersonated.
>
> It will allow us to more easily have taken down Fivver and Upworks accounts
> that are pretending to be established Wikipedians.
>
> How would this leak anything? People involve with paid editor are already
> required to disclose the intermediaries through which they work and this
> does not change that.
>
> James
>
> On Wed, Sep 13, 2017 at 6:19 PM, John Erling Blad <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Sorry, bad idea. Can't be done and will only lead to stalking and
> > alienating users. (Or rather it can be done, but would imply leakage of
> > identifiable information to such a degree that it would put the involved
> > organizations on the front pages for weeks.)
> >
> > John Erling Blad
> > /jeblad
> >
> > On Wed, Sep 13, 2017 at 5:40 PM, James Heilman <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > Have started a meta RfC regarding the above* here
> > > <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/
> > > interlinking_of_accounts_involved_with_paid_editing_to_
> > > decrease_impersonation>.*
> > >
> > > This is to help address issues of impersonation of established
> > Wikipedians
> > > by paid editors.
> > >
> > > Further thoughts appreciated. Best
> > > --
> > > James Heilman
> > > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> > >
> > > The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
>
>
> --
> James Heilman
> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Requiring the interlinking of accounts involved with paid editing

jmh649
I am wanting to protect Wikipedians from being impersonated. I am also
wanting to protect those on Upworks and other sites from hiring people who
are community banned or editing in breach of policy but pretending they are
legit. This proposal will help with both of those.

That people sometimes struggle to get help on Wikipedia, while unfortunate,
is not the problem this proposal is working to address.

If you are using Upworks etc for offering services other than the editing
of Wikipedia for pay this proposal does not affect you in anyway. If you
are a disclosed paid editor, you already per the terms of use are required
to state the intermediaries you are working through and thus you should
already be doing this.

This proposal will actually help people find "white hat" paid editors who
properly disclose.

James



On Wed, Sep 13, 2017 at 6:48 PM, John Erling Blad <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Okey, I may have (or perhaps not) edited a page. Perhaps I have an account
> on Upwork (or perhaps not). That page may have been edited because I had a
> discussion with someone at Upwork (or perhaps not). I could also been
> discussing editing the page at OTRS, but again, perhaps not.
>
> How can you know that? Because I am "jeblad"? What if I am "honky donky" on
> Wikipedia? Do you really believe that because someone said people doing
> paid editing should say so actually do so?
>
> From point b on your RfC "but yet there is no account on Wikipedia that
> discloses that account", how do you plan on figuring out which account on
> those two systems are the same? To identify the culprit you must connect
> two dots, and you don't have enough information about neither of them.
>
> I am on Upwork because a big and rather well-known organization asked me to
> create an account. I have even edited pages! Yay! Go figure which one, and
> why! ;p (To make it easy, their initials reads W-M-F, and no it was not
> about Wikipedia-editing.)
>
> I see all the postings from people that ask for help about their wikipedia
> pages. People ask for help because the failure of the wikipedia-communities
> to provide sufficient help. Going after the people that help them is not a
> good solution, it is (sorry) a stupid solution. If someone ask for help,
> then help them!
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 2:22 AM, James Heilman <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Why? IMO it will protect users from being impersonated.
> >
> > It will allow us to more easily have taken down Fivver and Upworks
> accounts
> > that are pretending to be established Wikipedians.
> >
> > How would this leak anything? People involve with paid editor are already
> > required to disclose the intermediaries through which they work and this
> > does not change that.
> >
> > James
> >
> > On Wed, Sep 13, 2017 at 6:19 PM, John Erling Blad <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Sorry, bad idea. Can't be done and will only lead to stalking and
> > > alienating users. (Or rather it can be done, but would imply leakage of
> > > identifiable information to such a degree that it would put the
> involved
> > > organizations on the front pages for weeks.)
> > >
> > > John Erling Blad
> > > /jeblad
> > >
> > > On Wed, Sep 13, 2017 at 5:40 PM, James Heilman <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Have started a meta RfC regarding the above* here
> > > > <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/
> > > > interlinking_of_accounts_involved_with_paid_editing_to_
> > > > decrease_impersonation>.*
> > > >
> > > > This is to help address issues of impersonation of established
> > > Wikipedians
> > > > by paid editors.
> > > >
> > > > Further thoughts appreciated. Best
> > > > --
> > > > James Heilman
> > > > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> > > >
> > > > The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
> mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > James Heilman
> > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>




--
James Heilman
MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
_______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Requiring the interlinking of accounts involved with paid editing

John Erling Blad
Sorry, but this is a horribly bad idea, and anyone that try to do what you
propose runs a serious legal risk.

I guess you will have a few support, but I really hope this will newer be
implemented.

John

On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 3:01 AM, James Heilman <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I am wanting to protect Wikipedians from being impersonated. I am also
> wanting to protect those on Upworks and other sites from hiring people who
> are community banned or editing in breach of policy but pretending they are
> legit. This proposal will help with both of those.
>
> That people sometimes struggle to get help on Wikipedia, while unfortunate,
> is not the problem this proposal is working to address.
>
> If you are using Upworks etc for offering services other than the editing
> of Wikipedia for pay this proposal does not affect you in anyway. If you
> are a disclosed paid editor, you already per the terms of use are required
> to state the intermediaries you are working through and thus you should
> already be doing this.
>
> This proposal will actually help people find "white hat" paid editors who
> properly disclose.
>
> James
>
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 13, 2017 at 6:48 PM, John Erling Blad <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Okey, I may have (or perhaps not) edited a page. Perhaps I have an
> account
> > on Upwork (or perhaps not). That page may have been edited because I had
> a
> > discussion with someone at Upwork (or perhaps not). I could also been
> > discussing editing the page at OTRS, but again, perhaps not.
> >
> > How can you know that? Because I am "jeblad"? What if I am "honky donky"
> on
> > Wikipedia? Do you really believe that because someone said people doing
> > paid editing should say so actually do so?
> >
> > From point b on your RfC "but yet there is no account on Wikipedia that
> > discloses that account", how do you plan on figuring out which account on
> > those two systems are the same? To identify the culprit you must connect
> > two dots, and you don't have enough information about neither of them.
> >
> > I am on Upwork because a big and rather well-known organization asked me
> to
> > create an account. I have even edited pages! Yay! Go figure which one,
> and
> > why! ;p (To make it easy, their initials reads W-M-F, and no it was not
> > about Wikipedia-editing.)
> >
> > I see all the postings from people that ask for help about their
> wikipedia
> > pages. People ask for help because the failure of the
> wikipedia-communities
> > to provide sufficient help. Going after the people that help them is not
> a
> > good solution, it is (sorry) a stupid solution. If someone ask for help,
> > then help them!
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 2:22 AM, James Heilman <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > Why? IMO it will protect users from being impersonated.
> > >
> > > It will allow us to more easily have taken down Fivver and Upworks
> > accounts
> > > that are pretending to be established Wikipedians.
> > >
> > > How would this leak anything? People involve with paid editor are
> already
> > > required to disclose the intermediaries through which they work and
> this
> > > does not change that.
> > >
> > > James
> > >
> > > On Wed, Sep 13, 2017 at 6:19 PM, John Erling Blad <[hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Sorry, bad idea. Can't be done and will only lead to stalking and
> > > > alienating users. (Or rather it can be done, but would imply leakage
> of
> > > > identifiable information to such a degree that it would put the
> > involved
> > > > organizations on the front pages for weeks.)
> > > >
> > > > John Erling Blad
> > > > /jeblad
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Sep 13, 2017 at 5:40 PM, James Heilman <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Have started a meta RfC regarding the above* here
> > > > > <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/
> > > > > interlinking_of_accounts_involved_with_paid_editing_to_
> > > > > decrease_impersonation>.*
> > > > >
> > > > > This is to help address issues of impersonation of established
> > > > Wikipedians
> > > > > by paid editors.
> > > > >
> > > > > Further thoughts appreciated. Best
> > > > > --
> > > > > James Heilman
> > > > > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> > > > >
> > > > > The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
> > mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=
> unsubscribe>
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
> mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > James Heilman
> > > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
>
>
> --
> James Heilman
> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Requiring the interlinking of accounts involved with paid editing

Michael Peel-2

> On 13 Sep 2017, at 22:19, John Erling Blad <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Sorry, but this is a horribly bad idea, and anyone that try to do what you
> propose runs a serious legal risk.

{{citation needed}}

> I guess you will have a few support, but I really hope this will newer be
> implemented.

Why?

Thanks,
Mike

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Requiring the interlinking of accounts involved with paid editing

John Erling Blad
If I go to somebody's employer and make wild claims about a person, like he
does something irregular or illegal, then it is pretty much identical to
this.

I seriously doubt WMF will be willing to share user account details with
Upwork or any other, and I seriously doubt Upwork (or any other) will start
blocking accounts on this terms.

Feel free to believe otherwise.

On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 3:21 AM, Michael Peel <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> > On 13 Sep 2017, at 22:19, John Erling Blad <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Sorry, but this is a horribly bad idea, and anyone that try to do what
> you
> > propose runs a serious legal risk.
>
> {{citation needed}}
>
> > I guess you will have a few support, but I really hope this will newer be
> > implemented.
>
> Why?
>
> Thanks,
> Mike
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Requiring the interlinking of accounts involved with paid editing

jmh649
No one is proposing going to anyone's employer. The proposal requires no
sharing of private account deals with Upworks or anyone else. These
comments do not appear to have any relation to what is being proposed.

James

On Wed, Sep 13, 2017 at 7:43 PM, John Erling Blad <[hidden email]> wrote:

> If I go to somebody's employer and make wild claims about a person, like he
> does something irregular or illegal, then it is pretty much identical to
> this.
>
> I seriously doubt WMF will be willing to share user account details with
> Upwork or any other, and I seriously doubt Upwork (or any other) will start
> blocking accounts on this terms.
>
> Feel free to believe otherwise.
>
> On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 3:21 AM, Michael Peel <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> >
> > > On 13 Sep 2017, at 22:19, John Erling Blad <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > Sorry, but this is a horribly bad idea, and anyone that try to do what
> > you
> > > propose runs a serious legal risk.
> >
> > {{citation needed}}
> >
> > > I guess you will have a few support, but I really hope this will newer
> be
> > > implemented.
> >
> > Why?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Mike
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
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> >
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--
James Heilman
MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Requiring the interlinking of accounts involved with paid editing

Michael Peel-2
In reply to this post by John Erling Blad
Everything being discussed here seems to have already been publicly posted by the relevant users? No private information seems to be being shared...

Thanks,
Mike

> On 13 Sep 2017, at 22:43, John Erling Blad <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> If I go to somebody's employer and make wild claims about a person, like he
> does something irregular or illegal, then it is pretty much identical to
> this.
>
> I seriously doubt WMF will be willing to share user account details with
> Upwork or any other, and I seriously doubt Upwork (or any other) will start
> blocking accounts on this terms.
>
> Feel free to believe otherwise.
>
> On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 3:21 AM, Michael Peel <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>
>>> On 13 Sep 2017, at 22:19, John Erling Blad <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Sorry, but this is a horribly bad idea, and anyone that try to do what
>> you
>>> propose runs a serious legal risk.
>>
>> {{citation needed}}
>>
>>> I guess you will have a few support, but I really hope this will newer be
>>> implemented.
>>
>> Why?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Mike
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
>> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
>> wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> New messages to: [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>
> _______________________________________________
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> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>


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