[Wikimedia-l] Snøhetta and Wikimedia

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[Wikimedia-l] Snøhetta and Wikimedia

John Erling Blad
This is out in several newspapers now.

"Snøhetta shall create new visual profile for Wikipedia-owner" [1]

A quick Google Translate dump

The mission is the largest in the field of graphic design ever, writes
Dagens Næringsliv.

- For me personally, this is very big, but you see it in a larger
perspective - Norway, Norwegian design and graphic design - then this
is one of the largest international customers who have come to Norway
and chosen a Norwegian design agency. So it's very big, says strategic
advisor Sanda Zahirovic in the design department in Snøhetta to the
newspaper.

Eight companies were in the competition for the assignment. Creative
director Heather Walls at Wikimedia will not go out with Dagens
Næringsliv with what other companies were talking about, but says that
Snøhetta was the obvious choice.

Snow hood founder and partner Kjetil Trædal Thorsen cannot say how
much the contract is worth, but emphasizes that the work is devoting a
good deal of resources during the project period, which is half a
year.

[1] https://www.aftenposten.no/kultur/i/mRd1pp/snoehetta-skal-skape-en-ny-visuell-profil-for-wikipedia-eier

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Snøhetta and Wikimedia

John Erling Blad
Note that "Dagens næringsliv" printed the story Thursday, so they must
have had information about it before WMF left the meeting with
Snøhetta. This is no longer a breaking story.

On Sat, Jan 18, 2020 at 12:04 AM John Erling Blad <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> This is out in several newspapers now.
>
> "Snøhetta shall create new visual profile for Wikipedia-owner" [1]
>
> A quick Google Translate dump
>
> The mission is the largest in the field of graphic design ever, writes
> Dagens Næringsliv.
>
> - For me personally, this is very big, but you see it in a larger
> perspective - Norway, Norwegian design and graphic design - then this
> is one of the largest international customers who have come to Norway
> and chosen a Norwegian design agency. So it's very big, says strategic
> advisor Sanda Zahirovic in the design department in Snøhetta to the
> newspaper.
>
> Eight companies were in the competition for the assignment. Creative
> director Heather Walls at Wikimedia will not go out with Dagens
> Næringsliv with what other companies were talking about, but says that
> Snøhetta was the obvious choice.
>
> Snow hood founder and partner Kjetil Trædal Thorsen cannot say how
> much the contract is worth, but emphasizes that the work is devoting a
> good deal of resources during the project period, which is half a
> year.
>
> [1] https://www.aftenposten.no/kultur/i/mRd1pp/snoehetta-skal-skape-en-ny-visuell-profil-for-wikipedia-eier

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Snøhetta and Wikimedia

Pine W
Umm.....

Looking at https://brandingwikipedia.org/, I wonder if this refers to WMF's
ill-fated effort to rebrand Wikimedia as Wikipedia that I hope has been
abandoned. I hope that WMF did not, without consulting the community or
even having the courtesy to notify us, decide to launch another rebranding
effort

Pine
( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )


On Fri, Jan 17, 2020 at 11:27 PM John Erling Blad <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Note that "Dagens næringsliv" printed the story Thursday, so they must
> have had information about it before WMF left the meeting with
> Snøhetta. This is no longer a breaking story.
>
> On Sat, Jan 18, 2020 at 12:04 AM John Erling Blad <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> > This is out in several newspapers now.
> >
> > "Snøhetta shall create new visual profile for Wikipedia-owner" [1]
> >
> > A quick Google Translate dump
> >
> > The mission is the largest in the field of graphic design ever, writes
> > Dagens Næringsliv.
> >
> > - For me personally, this is very big, but you see it in a larger
> > perspective - Norway, Norwegian design and graphic design - then this
> > is one of the largest international customers who have come to Norway
> > and chosen a Norwegian design agency. So it's very big, says strategic
> > advisor Sanda Zahirovic in the design department in Snøhetta to the
> > newspaper.
> >
> > Eight companies were in the competition for the assignment. Creative
> > director Heather Walls at Wikimedia will not go out with Dagens
> > Næringsliv with what other companies were talking about, but says that
> > Snøhetta was the obvious choice.
> >
> > Snow hood founder and partner Kjetil Trædal Thorsen cannot say how
> > much the contract is worth, but emphasizes that the work is devoting a
> > good deal of resources during the project period, which is half a
> > year.
> >
> > [1]
> https://www.aftenposten.no/kultur/i/mRd1pp/snoehetta-skal-skape-en-ny-visuell-profil-for-wikipedia-eier
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
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> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Snøhetta and Wikimedia

K. Peachey-2
Domain Registered on: 2020-01-02
Linked Wiki page is still getting edits:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Communications/Wikimedia_brands/2030_movement_brand_project&action=history

On Sat, 18 Jan 2020 at 09:36, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Umm.....
>
> Looking at https://brandingwikipedia.org/, I wonder if this refers to WMF's
> ill-fated effort to rebrand Wikimedia as Wikipedia that I hope has been
> abandoned. I hope that WMF did not, without consulting the community or
> even having the courtesy to notify us, decide to launch another rebranding
> effort
>
> Pine
> ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 17, 2020 at 11:27 PM John Erling Blad <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Note that "Dagens næringsliv" printed the story Thursday, so they must
> > have had information about it before WMF left the meeting with
> > Snøhetta. This is no longer a breaking story.
> >
> > On Sat, Jan 18, 2020 at 12:04 AM John Erling Blad <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > This is out in several newspapers now.
> > >
> > > "Snøhetta shall create new visual profile for Wikipedia-owner" [1]
> > >
> > > A quick Google Translate dump
> > >
> > > The mission is the largest in the field of graphic design ever, writes
> > > Dagens Næringsliv.
> > >
> > > - For me personally, this is very big, but you see it in a larger
> > > perspective - Norway, Norwegian design and graphic design - then this
> > > is one of the largest international customers who have come to Norway
> > > and chosen a Norwegian design agency. So it's very big, says strategic
> > > advisor Sanda Zahirovic in the design department in Snøhetta to the
> > > newspaper.
> > >
> > > Eight companies were in the competition for the assignment. Creative
> > > director Heather Walls at Wikimedia will not go out with Dagens
> > > Næringsliv with what other companies were talking about, but says that
> > > Snøhetta was the obvious choice.
> > >
> > > Snow hood founder and partner Kjetil Trædal Thorsen cannot say how
> > > much the contract is worth, but emphasizes that the work is devoting a
> > > good deal of resources during the project period, which is half a
> > > year.
> > >
> > > [1]
> > https://www.aftenposten.no/kultur/i/mRd1pp/snoehetta-skal-skape-en-ny-visuell-profil-for-wikipedia-eier
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Snøhetta and Wikimedia

Andy Mabbett-2
In reply to this post by John Erling Blad
On Fri, 17 Jan 2020 at 23:04, John Erling Blad <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> This is out in several newspapers now.
>
> "Snøhetta shall create new visual profile for Wikipedia-owner"

This edit made 10 January 2020, is relevant:

  https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Communications/Wikimedia_brands/2030_movement_brand_project&diff=19696096&oldid=19684544

Indeed, Snøhetta was added to that page on 18 December 2019.


User:SnøhettaAS was blocked on en.Wikipedia  on 4 October 2019, after
just three edits - two to [[Snøhetta (company)]] and one to their talk
page. No paid editing declaration had been made. The subsequent
history of that article is also worth reviewing.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Snøhetta and Wikimedia

Pine W
There are ways that Wikimedia rebranding consultations could be done
collaboratively, politely, and with careful stewardship of donor's money.
This is not one of them.

I think that it's time for some people in WMF to move on. Without having
access to WMF internal discussions, I don't know exactly who I would
remove, but I've had enough of poor coordination, questionable financial
decisions, and discourtesy, and I hope that the donors and the Board have
too. These problems are not isolated to the rebranding effort, but I think
that this is as good a place as any to start replacing employees who aren't
working out.

Pine
( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Snøhetta and Wikimedia

Guillaume Paumier-4
Earthfire and rustbuckets, can we please stop calling for people to be
fired for doing their job, especially right after admitting that there is
obviously more going on that we don't know about yet. No one's going to
"start replacing employees" based on mailing list messages, so this kind of
peremptory statement only serves as dog-whistling posturing, and only
contributes to the denominator part of this list's signal-to-noise ratio.
This is literally divisive.

Be better than that.


On Fri, Jan 17, 2020 at 4:50 PM Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:

> There are ways that Wikimedia rebranding consultations could be done
> collaboratively, politely, and with careful stewardship of donor's money.
> This is not one of them.
>
> I think that it's time for some people in WMF to move on. Without having
> access to WMF internal discussions, I don't know exactly who I would
> remove, but I've had enough of poor coordination, questionable financial
> decisions, and discourtesy, and I hope that the donors and the Board have
> too. These problems are not isolated to the rebranding effort, but I think
> that this is as good a place as any to start replacing employees who aren't
> working out.
>
> Pine
> ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>



--
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Snøhetta and Wikimedia

Amir Sarabadani-2
> On Fri, Jan 17, 2020 at 4:50 PM Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > I think that it's time for some people in WMF to move on. Without having
> > access to WMF internal discussions


So what you're saying is that you don't have lots of information on how
it's decided [1] but you still feel informed enough to at least fire "some
people". Isn't it harassment? How would you feel if I come to your
workplace (assuming you're an employee) and tell everyone you should be
fired based on something I disagree with?

It doesn't mean you can't criticise the contract, the rebranding work or
any other WMF project. But criticising like this would just defy your
purpose. I hope moderators of this mailing list take action.

[1] e.g. Are you sure the board hasn't approved this?
--
Amir (he/him)
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Snøhetta and Wikimedia

John Erling Blad
… and people immediately went ballistic. Calm down and discuss the topic!

The news reporting seems to be that Snøhetta has been awarded a full
design project, while the page at Meta says it should act as some form
of facilitator. It could be interesting to know what is correct, as
these two descriptions are pretty disparate.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Snøhetta and Wikimedia

metasj
Interesting to see -- thanks for the pointer John!
I like what I've seen of Snøhetta + their work, would love to hear more.

On Sat, Jan 18, 2020 at 1:56 PM John Erling Blad <[hidden email]> wrote:

> … and people immediately went ballistic. Calm down and discuss the topic!
>
> The news reporting seems to be that Snøhetta has been awarded a full
> design project, while the page at Meta says it should act as some form
> of facilitator. It could be interesting to know what is correct, as
> these two descriptions are pretty disparate.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Snøhetta and Wikimedia

Фархад Фаткуллин / Farhad Fatkullin
In reply to this post by John Erling Blad
Forwarding from a PC as simple text:

18.01.2020, 23:48, "Фархад Фаткуллин / Farhad Fatkullin" <[hidden email]>:

> As one of the participants at Oslo workshops (two groups of Wikimedia movement participants took part in on-site hands-on exercises on Jan.14-15 & 15-16), I would say both statements are correct.
>
> At this stage Snøhetta is facilitating Wikimedians' brainstorming using their Ideawork approach.
>
> There should also be one online leg on/around February 4 (presumably open to everyone) & two more groups will be engaging in in-person hands-on exercise in late mid-February in India.
>
> On top of the theoretical input about affiliate initiatives that are important to the movement, some international cases around dealing with intolerance & principles of Snøhetta's work around large projects,  Snøhetta & WMF Communications staff was guiding the work of respective participant groups. Each group was broken into teams that had representatives of both assigned, asking questions to facilitate the process. There was filming & photographing of the process, collecting materials that are being generated. All teams are international — I met affiliate members from Israel, Argentina, Turkey, Benin, South Africa, Georgia, Switzerland, Austria, Norway, France, Canada, etc. myself being from Tatarstan of the Russian Federation.
>
> Commons category for Oslo photoes & videos https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Oslo_workshop_-_Movement_brand_project
> I will add my smartphone pics there as well — kept Russian folks informed via Telegram chat.
>
> India workshops will bring together other people, thus different ideas to enrich understanding of whatever ideas will define the next stages of the work.
>
> regards,
> farhad
>
> --
> Sent from Yandex.Mail for mobile
>
> 21:56, January 18, 2020, John Erling Blad <[hidden email]>:
>> … and people immediately went ballistic. Calm down and discuss the topic!
>>
>> The news reporting seems to be that Snøhetta has been awarded a full
>> design project, while the page at Meta says it should act as some form
>> of facilitator. It could be interesting to know what is correct, as
>> these two descriptions are pretty disparate.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> New messages to: [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Snøhetta and Wikimedia

geni
In reply to this post by Pine W
On Sat, 18 Jan 2020 at 00:50, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> There are ways that Wikimedia rebranding consultations could be done
> collaboratively, politely, and with careful stewardship of donor's money.
> This is not one of them.

Eh questionable. The community is difficult to engage at the best of
times and tends to be reflexively conservative about such things. It
may well be that it is impossible to get any meaningful agreement on
rebranding.

> I think that it's time for some people in WMF to move on.

This kind of thing has happened from time to time despite significant
staff turnover over the years. Probably just a natural function of
certain organisations. All we can really do is try and limit the
damage.

>but I've had enough of poor coordination,

Unavoidable from time to time since there is too much going on for any
one person to keep track of.

>questionable financial decisions,

Again a function of size. It would frankly be concerning if every
editor agreed with every financial decisions. There is also the long
standing problem of balancing the risk of wasting money with the risk
of paralysis.




--
geni

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Snøhetta and Wikimedia

Michael Peel
This meta RfC might be of interest:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Should_the_Foundation_call_itself_Wikipedia

Gracias,
Mike

> On 19 Jan 2020, at 08:54:12, geni <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On Sat, 18 Jan 2020 at 00:50, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> There are ways that Wikimedia rebranding consultations could be done
>> collaboratively, politely, and with careful stewardship of donor's money.
>> This is not one of them.
>
> Eh questionable. The community is difficult to engage at the best of
> times and tends to be reflexively conservative about such things. It
> may well be that it is impossible to get any meaningful agreement on
> rebranding.
>
>> I think that it's time for some people in WMF to move on.
>
> This kind of thing has happened from time to time despite significant
> staff turnover over the years. Probably just a natural function of
> certain organisations. All we can really do is try and limit the
> damage.
>
>> but I've had enough of poor coordination,
>
> Unavoidable from time to time since there is too much going on for any
> one person to keep track of.
>
>> questionable financial decisions,
>
> Again a function of size. It would frankly be concerning if every
> editor agreed with every financial decisions. There is also the long
> standing problem of balancing the risk of wasting money with the risk
> of paralysis.
>
>
>
>
> --
> geni
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Snøhetta and Wikimedia

Peter Southwood
Thanks for the heads-up, Mike,
P

-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Mike Peel
Sent: 20 January 2020 00:29
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Snøhetta and Wikimedia

This meta RfC might be of interest:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Should_the_Foundation_call_itself_Wikipedia

Gracias,
Mike

> On 19 Jan 2020, at 08:54:12, geni <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On Sat, 18 Jan 2020 at 00:50, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> There are ways that Wikimedia rebranding consultations could be done
>> collaboratively, politely, and with careful stewardship of donor's money.
>> This is not one of them.
>
> Eh questionable. The community is difficult to engage at the best of
> times and tends to be reflexively conservative about such things. It
> may well be that it is impossible to get any meaningful agreement on
> rebranding.
>
>> I think that it's time for some people in WMF to move on.
>
> This kind of thing has happened from time to time despite significant
> staff turnover over the years. Probably just a natural function of
> certain organisations. All we can really do is try and limit the
> damage.
>
>> but I've had enough of poor coordination,
>
> Unavoidable from time to time since there is too much going on for any
> one person to keep track of.
>
>> questionable financial decisions,
>
> Again a function of size. It would frankly be concerning if every
> editor agreed with every financial decisions. There is also the long
> standing problem of balancing the risk of wasting money with the risk
> of paralysis.
>
>
>
>
> --
> geni
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Snøhetta and Wikimedia

Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga
Mmm... How can such a relevant topic be discussed oficially at Facebook?

This is, by far, the worst way to do it.

2020 urt. 20 9:48 AM erabiltzaileak hau idatzi du (Peter Southwood <[hidden email]>):

Thanks for the heads-up, Mike,
P

-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Mike Peel
Sent: 20 January 2020 00:29
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Snøhetta and Wikimedia

This meta RfC might be of interest:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Should_the_Foundation_call_itself_Wikipedia

Gracias,
Mike

> On 19 Jan 2020, at 08:54:12, geni <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On Sat, 18 Jan 2020 at 00:50, Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> There are ways that Wikimedia rebranding consultations could be done
>> collaboratively, politely, and with careful stewardship of donor's money.
>> This is not one of them.
>
> Eh questionable. The community is difficult to engage at the best of
> times and tends to be reflexively conservative about such things. It
> may well be that it is impossible to get any meaningful agreement on
> rebranding.
>
>> I think that it's time for some people in WMF to move on.
>
> This kind of thing has happened from time to time despite significant
> staff turnover over the years. Probably just a natural function of
> certain organisations. All we can really do is try and limit the
> damage.
>
>> but I've had enough of poor coordination,
>
> Unavoidable from time to time since there is too much going on for any
> one person to keep track of.
>
>> questionable financial decisions,
>
> Again a function of size. It would frankly be concerning if every
> editor agreed with every financial decisions. There is also the long
> standing problem of balancing the risk of wasting money with the risk
> of paralysis.
>
>
>
>
> --
> geni
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Snøhetta and Wikimedia

Nathan Awrich
In reply to this post by Pine W
Just want to reinforce some other comments -- Pine... WMF employees, many
of whom gave up subscribing to this list long ago, are real people and this
is their livelihood.

Suggestions to start firing people add no value to the discussion and, if
anything, detract from the credibility of the other points you are trying
to make (which I largely agree with).

Hoping with the benefit of a few days of cooling down that is clear to you
as well.

~Nathan

On Fri, Jan 17, 2020 at 7:50 PM Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:

> There are ways that Wikimedia rebranding consultations could be done
> collaboratively, politely, and with careful stewardship of donor's money.
> This is not one of them.
>
> I think that it's time for some people in WMF to move on. Without having
> access to WMF internal discussions, I don't know exactly who I would
> remove, but I've had enough of poor coordination, questionable financial
> decisions, and discourtesy, and I hope that the donors and the Board have
> too. These problems are not isolated to the rebranding effort, but I think
> that this is as good a place as any to start replacing employees who aren't
> working out.
>
> Pine
> ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Snøhetta and Wikimedia

Pine W
In reply to this post by Pine W
Hello,

I have waited to return to this thread until I could clear enough
space in my mind to try to address it thoroughly. Apologies for the
delay. I will try to address multiple topics in one email.

I think that the Wikipedia brand is, in a way, the brand of the
community. WMF is the steward of the brand, and should not use the
brand in ways which the community has not authorized by consensus.

There was a previous mailing discussion on Wikimedia-l in September
2019. I would have expected an update after that discussion if WMF was
considering moving ahead with rebranding itself. An email announcing
that the matter was being reviewed by the Board, and/or that WMF was
starting an RfC, would have been fine. Community consultations or an
RfC could have taken place at that time without using outside
contractor.

I don't appreciate being surprised. Given that the focus of this
effort in WMF is inside of its Communications Department, I think that
staff should be especially proactive in communicating what they are
doing with regards to major initiatives, and prior to engaging in a
contracting process with donors' funds.

Staff appear not to have addressed, at least in public on English
Wikipedia, the sockpuppeting allegations with regards to Snøhetta. [1]
[2].

Also worth noting is the RfC, which was previously mentioned in this
thread: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Should_the_Foundation_call_itself_Wikipedia.
The current count as of the time of my writing this email is 26
support and 292 oppose.

This series of events should have been handled differently. Nobody is
perfect, but there are problems here that appear to be more
significant than a simple one time failure to communicate on an issue
of moderate importance.

One oversight that I made in my earlier email, and which I will
correct with an apology for not stating this earlier (I too can be
wrong), is that problems in this series of events could include
decisions that were made by the WMF Board. However, without access to
WMF's internal communications, it is impossible to know how this
series of events happened.

I am not advocating adding stress to people who do good work, or
people who have so much work that they can't realistically handle
everything that they're told to do. It is possible that staff are
simply overworked. However, while I don't enjoy writing about this
topic, sometimes changing personnel is for the best. This happens in
government organizations and companies, and I imagine happens on
occasion in WMF, although often in private. Also, in WMF and in
affiliate boards, sometimes board members are replaced as a result of
elections. In the community, we occasionally revoke people's
permissions or block people in public, and here too people sometimes
are replaced as a result of elections. I realize that this is a topic
that can be stressful, but I think that candor is appropriate. I feel
rooted in the English Wikipedia community and I think that what I say
in this paragraph is consistent with how our community works, and is
consistent with how I see government agencies sometimes work in the
United States. At the same time (and I wish that I said this in my
previous email) the point isn't to have a culture where people should
be fearful on a daily basis. I would hope that generally things go OK
for people, and that one time mistakes which are easily reversed don't
result in someone feeling fearful. What is more concerning is a
pattern of problems, or an error that results in a single major
problem that is difficult to reverse.

I personally have made considerable efforts during my personal time to
try to address what I heard was widespread fear among WMF staff about
communicating in public, and that interest continues. A "culture of
fear" can limit communication and erodes trust. At the same time, I
think that the WMF Board and staff should communicate proactively
about initiatives and decisions with significant implications.

Pine
( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Sn%C3%B8hettaAS
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Leilaoes

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Snøhetta and Wikimedia

Frans Grijzenhout
Thanks Pine, +1, in particular for this sentence, which goes beyond the
legal status of the brand name:  "I think that the Wikipedia brand is, in a
way, the brand of the community. WMF is the steward of the brand, and
should not use the brand in ways which the community has not authorized by
consensus."
Frans
*Frans Grijzenhout*, voorzitter / chair
+31 6 5333 9499
--
*Vereniging Wikimedia Nederland*
Mariaplaats 3  -  3511 LH Utrecht
Kamer van Koophandel 17189036
http://www.wikimedia.nl/


Op zo 2 feb. 2020 om 01:31 schreef Pine W <[hidden email]>:

> Hello,
>
> I have waited to return to this thread until I could clear enough
> space in my mind to try to address it thoroughly. Apologies for the
> delay. I will try to address multiple topics in one email.
>
> I think that the Wikipedia brand is, in a way, the brand of the
> community. WMF is the steward of the brand, and should not use the
> brand in ways which the community has not authorized by consensus.
>
> There was a previous mailing discussion on Wikimedia-l in September
> 2019. I would have expected an update after that discussion if WMF was
> considering moving ahead with rebranding itself. An email announcing
> that the matter was being reviewed by the Board, and/or that WMF was
> starting an RfC, would have been fine. Community consultations or an
> RfC could have taken place at that time without using outside
> contractor.
>
> I don't appreciate being surprised. Given that the focus of this
> effort in WMF is inside of its Communications Department, I think that
> staff should be especially proactive in communicating what they are
> doing with regards to major initiatives, and prior to engaging in a
> contracting process with donors' funds.
>
> Staff appear not to have addressed, at least in public on English
> Wikipedia, the sockpuppeting allegations with regards to Snøhetta. [1]
> [2].
>
> Also worth noting is the RfC, which was previously mentioned in this
> thread:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Should_the_Foundation_call_itself_Wikipedia
> .
> The current count as of the time of my writing this email is 26
> support and 292 oppose.
>
> This series of events should have been handled differently. Nobody is
> perfect, but there are problems here that appear to be more
> significant than a simple one time failure to communicate on an issue
> of moderate importance.
>
> One oversight that I made in my earlier email, and which I will
> correct with an apology for not stating this earlier (I too can be
> wrong), is that problems in this series of events could include
> decisions that were made by the WMF Board. However, without access to
> WMF's internal communications, it is impossible to know how this
> series of events happened.
>
> I am not advocating adding stress to people who do good work, or
> people who have so much work that they can't realistically handle
> everything that they're told to do. It is possible that staff are
> simply overworked. However, while I don't enjoy writing about this
> topic, sometimes changing personnel is for the best. This happens in
> government organizations and companies, and I imagine happens on
> occasion in WMF, although often in private. Also, in WMF and in
> affiliate boards, sometimes board members are replaced as a result of
> elections. In the community, we occasionally revoke people's
> permissions or block people in public, and here too people sometimes
> are replaced as a result of elections. I realize that this is a topic
> that can be stressful, but I think that candor is appropriate. I feel
> rooted in the English Wikipedia community and I think that what I say
> in this paragraph is consistent with how our community works, and is
> consistent with how I see government agencies sometimes work in the
> United States. At the same time (and I wish that I said this in my
> previous email) the point isn't to have a culture where people should
> be fearful on a daily basis. I would hope that generally things go OK
> for people, and that one time mistakes which are easily reversed don't
> result in someone feeling fearful. What is more concerning is a
> pattern of problems, or an error that results in a single major
> problem that is difficult to reverse.
>
> I personally have made considerable efforts during my personal time to
> try to address what I heard was widespread fear among WMF staff about
> communicating in public, and that interest continues. A "culture of
> fear" can limit communication and erodes trust. At the same time, I
> think that the WMF Board and staff should communicate proactively
> about initiatives and decisions with significant implications.
>
> Pine
> ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )
>
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Sn%C3%B8hettaAS
> [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Leilaoes
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Snøhetta and Wikimedia

Gerard Meijssen-3
Hoi,
I totally agree that it is about community.. There are some 200 Wikipedia
communities, there is Commons, Wikisource and the community I am most
involved in Wikidata. What ties it together is the organisation of it all.
THAT is Wikimedia for me, both the org and the movement.
Thanks,
      GerardM

On Sun, 2 Feb 2020 at 12:12, Frans Grijzenhout <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thanks Pine, +1, in particular for this sentence, which goes beyond the
> legal status of the brand name:  "I think that the Wikipedia brand is, in a
> way, the brand of the community. WMF is the steward of the brand, and
> should not use the brand in ways which the community has not authorized by
> consensus."
> Frans
> *Frans Grijzenhout*, voorzitter / chair
> +31 6 5333 9499
> --
> *Vereniging Wikimedia Nederland*
> Mariaplaats 3  -  3511 LH Utrecht
> Kamer van Koophandel 17189036
> http://www.wikimedia.nl/
>
>
> Op zo 2 feb. 2020 om 01:31 schreef Pine W <[hidden email]>:
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > I have waited to return to this thread until I could clear enough
> > space in my mind to try to address it thoroughly. Apologies for the
> > delay. I will try to address multiple topics in one email.
> >
> > I think that the Wikipedia brand is, in a way, the brand of the
> > community. WMF is the steward of the brand, and should not use the
> > brand in ways which the community has not authorized by consensus.
> >
> > There was a previous mailing discussion on Wikimedia-l in September
> > 2019. I would have expected an update after that discussion if WMF was
> > considering moving ahead with rebranding itself. An email announcing
> > that the matter was being reviewed by the Board, and/or that WMF was
> > starting an RfC, would have been fine. Community consultations or an
> > RfC could have taken place at that time without using outside
> > contractor.
> >
> > I don't appreciate being surprised. Given that the focus of this
> > effort in WMF is inside of its Communications Department, I think that
> > staff should be especially proactive in communicating what they are
> > doing with regards to major initiatives, and prior to engaging in a
> > contracting process with donors' funds.
> >
> > Staff appear not to have addressed, at least in public on English
> > Wikipedia, the sockpuppeting allegations with regards to Snøhetta. [1]
> > [2].
> >
> > Also worth noting is the RfC, which was previously mentioned in this
> > thread:
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Should_the_Foundation_call_itself_Wikipedia
> > .
> > The current count as of the time of my writing this email is 26
> > support and 292 oppose.
> >
> > This series of events should have been handled differently. Nobody is
> > perfect, but there are problems here that appear to be more
> > significant than a simple one time failure to communicate on an issue
> > of moderate importance.
> >
> > One oversight that I made in my earlier email, and which I will
> > correct with an apology for not stating this earlier (I too can be
> > wrong), is that problems in this series of events could include
> > decisions that were made by the WMF Board. However, without access to
> > WMF's internal communications, it is impossible to know how this
> > series of events happened.
> >
> > I am not advocating adding stress to people who do good work, or
> > people who have so much work that they can't realistically handle
> > everything that they're told to do. It is possible that staff are
> > simply overworked. However, while I don't enjoy writing about this
> > topic, sometimes changing personnel is for the best. This happens in
> > government organizations and companies, and I imagine happens on
> > occasion in WMF, although often in private. Also, in WMF and in
> > affiliate boards, sometimes board members are replaced as a result of
> > elections. In the community, we occasionally revoke people's
> > permissions or block people in public, and here too people sometimes
> > are replaced as a result of elections. I realize that this is a topic
> > that can be stressful, but I think that candor is appropriate. I feel
> > rooted in the English Wikipedia community and I think that what I say
> > in this paragraph is consistent with how our community works, and is
> > consistent with how I see government agencies sometimes work in the
> > United States. At the same time (and I wish that I said this in my
> > previous email) the point isn't to have a culture where people should
> > be fearful on a daily basis. I would hope that generally things go OK
> > for people, and that one time mistakes which are easily reversed don't
> > result in someone feeling fearful. What is more concerning is a
> > pattern of problems, or an error that results in a single major
> > problem that is difficult to reverse.
> >
> > I personally have made considerable efforts during my personal time to
> > try to address what I heard was widespread fear among WMF staff about
> > communicating in public, and that interest continues. A "culture of
> > fear" can limit communication and erodes trust. At the same time, I
> > think that the WMF Board and staff should communicate proactively
> > about initiatives and decisions with significant implications.
> >
> > Pine
> > ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )
> >
> > [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Sn%C3%B8hettaAS
> > [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Leilaoes
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Snøhetta and Wikimedia

Jan Ainali-3
If you want an overview of the brand project I recently made an interview
with Zack McCune at WMF about it.

You can find it on Wikimedia Commons:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:WP_74_-_right_on_brand.mp3

or, if you prefer regular podcast players, here:
http://wikipediapodden.se/episode-74-right-on-brand/

/ Jan Ainali

Den sön 2 feb. 2020 kl 16:04 skrev Gerard Meijssen <
[hidden email]>:

> Hoi,
> I totally agree that it is about community.. There are some 200 Wikipedia
> communities, there is Commons, Wikisource and the community I am most
> involved in Wikidata. What ties it together is the organisation of it all.
> THAT is Wikimedia for me, both the org and the movement.
> Thanks,
>       GerardM
>
> On Sun, 2 Feb 2020 at 12:12, Frans Grijzenhout <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Thanks Pine, +1, in particular for this sentence, which goes beyond the
> > legal status of the brand name:  "I think that the Wikipedia brand is,
> in a
> > way, the brand of the community. WMF is the steward of the brand, and
> > should not use the brand in ways which the community has not authorized
> by
> > consensus."
> > Frans
> > *Frans Grijzenhout*, voorzitter / chair
> > +31 6 5333 9499
> > --
> > *Vereniging Wikimedia Nederland*
> > Mariaplaats 3  -  3511 LH Utrecht
> > Kamer van Koophandel 17189036
> > http://www.wikimedia.nl/
> >
> >
> > Op zo 2 feb. 2020 om 01:31 schreef Pine W <[hidden email]>:
> >
> > > Hello,
> > >
> > > I have waited to return to this thread until I could clear enough
> > > space in my mind to try to address it thoroughly. Apologies for the
> > > delay. I will try to address multiple topics in one email.
> > >
> > > I think that the Wikipedia brand is, in a way, the brand of the
> > > community. WMF is the steward of the brand, and should not use the
> > > brand in ways which the community has not authorized by consensus.
> > >
> > > There was a previous mailing discussion on Wikimedia-l in September
> > > 2019. I would have expected an update after that discussion if WMF was
> > > considering moving ahead with rebranding itself. An email announcing
> > > that the matter was being reviewed by the Board, and/or that WMF was
> > > starting an RfC, would have been fine. Community consultations or an
> > > RfC could have taken place at that time without using outside
> > > contractor.
> > >
> > > I don't appreciate being surprised. Given that the focus of this
> > > effort in WMF is inside of its Communications Department, I think that
> > > staff should be especially proactive in communicating what they are
> > > doing with regards to major initiatives, and prior to engaging in a
> > > contracting process with donors' funds.
> > >
> > > Staff appear not to have addressed, at least in public on English
> > > Wikipedia, the sockpuppeting allegations with regards to Snøhetta. [1]
> > > [2].
> > >
> > > Also worth noting is the RfC, which was previously mentioned in this
> > > thread:
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Should_the_Foundation_call_itself_Wikipedia
> > > .
> > > The current count as of the time of my writing this email is 26
> > > support and 292 oppose.
> > >
> > > This series of events should have been handled differently. Nobody is
> > > perfect, but there are problems here that appear to be more
> > > significant than a simple one time failure to communicate on an issue
> > > of moderate importance.
> > >
> > > One oversight that I made in my earlier email, and which I will
> > > correct with an apology for not stating this earlier (I too can be
> > > wrong), is that problems in this series of events could include
> > > decisions that were made by the WMF Board. However, without access to
> > > WMF's internal communications, it is impossible to know how this
> > > series of events happened.
> > >
> > > I am not advocating adding stress to people who do good work, or
> > > people who have so much work that they can't realistically handle
> > > everything that they're told to do. It is possible that staff are
> > > simply overworked. However, while I don't enjoy writing about this
> > > topic, sometimes changing personnel is for the best. This happens in
> > > government organizations and companies, and I imagine happens on
> > > occasion in WMF, although often in private. Also, in WMF and in
> > > affiliate boards, sometimes board members are replaced as a result of
> > > elections. In the community, we occasionally revoke people's
> > > permissions or block people in public, and here too people sometimes
> > > are replaced as a result of elections. I realize that this is a topic
> > > that can be stressful, but I think that candor is appropriate. I feel
> > > rooted in the English Wikipedia community and I think that what I say
> > > in this paragraph is consistent with how our community works, and is
> > > consistent with how I see government agencies sometimes work in the
> > > United States. At the same time (and I wish that I said this in my
> > > previous email) the point isn't to have a culture where people should
> > > be fearful on a daily basis. I would hope that generally things go OK
> > > for people, and that one time mistakes which are easily reversed don't
> > > result in someone feeling fearful. What is more concerning is a
> > > pattern of problems, or an error that results in a single major
> > > problem that is difficult to reverse.
> > >
> > > I personally have made considerable efforts during my personal time to
> > > try to address what I heard was widespread fear among WMF staff about
> > > communicating in public, and that interest continues. A "culture of
> > > fear" can limit communication and erodes trust. At the same time, I
> > > think that the WMF Board and staff should communicate proactively
> > > about initiatives and decisions with significant implications.
> > >
> > > Pine
> > > ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )
> > >
> > > [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Sn%C3%B8hettaAS
> > > [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Leilaoes
> > >
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