[Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

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[Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

Romaine Wiki-2
 Dear community,

First I need to mention that the message I sent a few days ago had too
limited information regarding the context of the message. The e-mail was
written by me personally alone, written from my perspective. The email
contained an overview what has happened, written based on e-mails and
eyewitnesses. So if anyone would say it is not true, please add {{Citation
needed}} to that person's saying.




About a month ago I have decided that I will indefinitely no longer attend
any WMF funded events as result of bullying, attempts to silence me,
intimidation and treats against me. This has resulted in that I feel
extremely unsafe as the result of the behaviour of only a few individuals.

This has lead that since the start of this occurring about 18 months ago I
have been over a dozen of times very ill, while I was in the 10 years
before only twice that ill.

I see no indication that the issues addressed are taken seriously, so I see
no safe space for me to be present. In my childhood I was bullied for being
different, I am not interested in a second episode now.




From my parents I have learned to lend others always a helping hand where I
can. As such I was happy to be able to help the organisers of various
conferences and I always tried to make it a comfortable place for everyone.

To my regret I have been informed that some people have indicated that I
have given them an unpleasant feeling. You must know that I never ever had
such intention (also still largely unsure what of me has given you this
emotion) and I am feeling bad that I gave you such feeling. My apologies!


Some people have indicated with last year's conference that they had an
impression of me while I never ever had intended as such. In the past
period I have been thinking about it what would make some people think that
I gave that impression. This includes that some people think that I was
flirting or something with other people, while I actually had no interest
in the other.

I suspect it might have something to do that I almost never really
introduced myself as I always thought that widely diverse people in our
movement would respect me in my diversity.


Perhaps it is good to create some clarity. Traditionally looking, I
understand people expect me as "man" to fall on women, but I do not fall on
the women present at the conferences, as well as that I have a different
gender identification. In other words: LGBT+   Also I am autistic, having
aspergers, having sensory overloads, being claustrophobic, having a hearing
problem, avoiding touching, having an eidetic memory (photographic memory),
etc, being divergent in comparison to many others, I am feeling a bit
socially clumsy.

The first 8 years in the wiki world I was not feeling safe to meet anyone.
In 2011 I visited the first wiki event when Wikipedia celebrated its 10th
birthday. I felt more and more safe and joined more events. You might have
seen me with my large enthusiasm as I feel by providing knowledge to the
world, we make the world a better place for anyone. Now 8 years later I am
leaving as I am not feeling safe again.

But please, do not get me wrong. I live in a country that would probably
win the world championships in complaining. I believe everyone has the
right to complain, as that I see as part of the basic rights of freedom of
expression and thought. It matters however what happens next with
complaints. Every complaint should be judged by independent individuals,
with impartiality, without also any *appearance* of partiality, with taking
into account *all* information, with care and respect to all individuals
involved. (etc) Also anyone has the right to defend themselves against
allegations *before* conclusions are drawn and before decisions are made.
Among other things, three times a conclusion was drawn without talking with
me, with as excuse "we know how he thinks", sorry, but that is a heavy
insult to me.

Behind the scenes I have been trying to address the issues with dialogues,
as well as various other people, who have indicated their concerns, offered
help, offered (actual) solutions, tried to intermediate, etc etc, zero
results, zero self reflection.

There is a limit of what a human being can bear, my limit is here.



In the world, people have been discriminated for their religion, political
beliefs, the colour of their skin, because of their gender, because of a
different gender identity, how they look like, ..., or just because they
are considered to be "weird" when people do not understand the other. I
would prefer that we do not copy that and instead organise a civilised
complaint handling that works independently.



Many of you gave me a welcome feeling, independent from who/how I am. Thank
you!

As I likely will not meet you again, the one thing that rests me to say is:
thank you for collaborating, talking and sharing your thoughts, I wish you
all the best!


Romaine
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

camelia boban
One way or another, as nerds, we are all weird. I felt in love with this
movement when I realized that anyone inside would not have felt a stranger.
I live in Rome, where there is the habit of hugging and / or kissing each
other on one cheek and another when we meet. In the Arab world I saw that
the kisses they give are 3. At this point, I will think twice before doing
it.  In the MeeToo era we must be careful not to exaggerate, striving to
understand the difference between harassment and what can sometimes be
rudeness only or, in this case, sensitivity and affection expressed in
another way congenital to us.

Let us remember that behind what we perceive as "different" there is a
human being, with his story and his desire for interment and to be part of
something greater, a community.

I will miss you Romaine, I will miss your tenderness and I am so sorry
about how things went and how bad you are.

I don't know about you wikipedians, but I feel terribly sad. And defeat,
because I don't understand what's happening to us.


*Camelia*














Il giorno gio 20 giu 2019 alle ore 13:15 Romaine Wiki <
[hidden email]> ha scritto:

>  Dear community,
>
> First I need to mention that the message I sent a few days ago had too
> limited information regarding the context of the message. The e-mail was
> written by me personally alone, written from my perspective. The email
> contained an overview what has happened, written based on e-mails and
> eyewitnesses. So if anyone would say it is not true, please add {{Citation
> needed}} to that person's saying.
>
>
>
>
> About a month ago I have decided that I will indefinitely no longer attend
> any WMF funded events as result of bullying, attempts to silence me,
> intimidation and treats against me. This has resulted in that I feel
> extremely unsafe as the result of the behaviour of only a few individuals.
>
> This has lead that since the start of this occurring about 18 months ago I
> have been over a dozen of times very ill, while I was in the 10 years
> before only twice that ill.
>
> I see no indication that the issues addressed are taken seriously, so I see
> no safe space for me to be present. In my childhood I was bullied for being
> different, I am not interested in a second episode now.
>
>
>
>
> From my parents I have learned to lend others always a helping hand where I
> can. As such I was happy to be able to help the organisers of various
> conferences and I always tried to make it a comfortable place for everyone.
>
> To my regret I have been informed that some people have indicated that I
> have given them an unpleasant feeling. You must know that I never ever had
> such intention (also still largely unsure what of me has given you this
> emotion) and I am feeling bad that I gave you such feeling. My apologies!
>
>
> Some people have indicated with last year's conference that they had an
> impression of me while I never ever had intended as such. In the past
> period I have been thinking about it what would make some people think that
> I gave that impression. This includes that some people think that I was
> flirting or something with other people, while I actually had no interest
> in the other.
>
> I suspect it might have something to do that I almost never really
> introduced myself as I always thought that widely diverse people in our
> movement would respect me in my diversity.
>
>
> Perhaps it is good to create some clarity. Traditionally looking, I
> understand people expect me as "man" to fall on women, but I do not fall on
> the women present at the conferences, as well as that I have a different
> gender identification. In other words: LGBT+   Also I am autistic, having
> aspergers, having sensory overloads, being claustrophobic, having a hearing
> problem, avoiding touching, having an eidetic memory (photographic memory),
> etc, being divergent in comparison to many others, I am feeling a bit
> socially clumsy.
>
> The first 8 years in the wiki world I was not feeling safe to meet anyone.
> In 2011 I visited the first wiki event when Wikipedia celebrated its 10th
> birthday. I felt more and more safe and joined more events. You might have
> seen me with my large enthusiasm as I feel by providing knowledge to the
> world, we make the world a better place for anyone. Now 8 years later I am
> leaving as I am not feeling safe again.
>
> But please, do not get me wrong. I live in a country that would probably
> win the world championships in complaining. I believe everyone has the
> right to complain, as that I see as part of the basic rights of freedom of
> expression and thought. It matters however what happens next with
> complaints. Every complaint should be judged by independent individuals,
> with impartiality, without also any *appearance* of partiality, with taking
> into account *all* information, with care and respect to all individuals
> involved. (etc) Also anyone has the right to defend themselves against
> allegations *before* conclusions are drawn and before decisions are made.
> Among other things, three times a conclusion was drawn without talking with
> me, with as excuse "we know how he thinks", sorry, but that is a heavy
> insult to me.
>
> Behind the scenes I have been trying to address the issues with dialogues,
> as well as various other people, who have indicated their concerns, offered
> help, offered (actual) solutions, tried to intermediate, etc etc, zero
> results, zero self reflection.
>
> There is a limit of what a human being can bear, my limit is here.
>
>
>
> In the world, people have been discriminated for their religion, political
> beliefs, the colour of their skin, because of their gender, because of a
> different gender identity, how they look like, ..., or just because they
> are considered to be "weird" when people do not understand the other. I
> would prefer that we do not copy that and instead organise a civilised
> complaint handling that works independently.
>
>
>
> Many of you gave me a welcome feeling, independent from who/how I am. Thank
> you!
>
> As I likely will not meet you again, the one thing that rests me to say is:
> thank you for collaborating, talking and sharing your thoughts, I wish you
> all the best!
>
>
> Romaine
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
_______________________________________________
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New messages to: [hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

Gerard Meijssen-3
In reply to this post by Romaine Wiki-2
Hoi Romaine,
I am sad. It has been a pleasure to work with you. Your energy has been
inspiring.

I hope that we will find each other whenever, wherever.
Thank you Romaine :)
        Gerard

On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 at 13:15, Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]> wrote:

>  Dear community,
>
> First I need to mention that the message I sent a few days ago had too
> limited information regarding the context of the message. The e-mail was
> written by me personally alone, written from my perspective. The email
> contained an overview what has happened, written based on e-mails and
> eyewitnesses. So if anyone would say it is not true, please add {{Citation
> needed}} to that person's saying.
>
>
>
>
> About a month ago I have decided that I will indefinitely no longer attend
> any WMF funded events as result of bullying, attempts to silence me,
> intimidation and treats against me. This has resulted in that I feel
> extremely unsafe as the result of the behaviour of only a few individuals.
>
> This has lead that since the start of this occurring about 18 months ago I
> have been over a dozen of times very ill, while I was in the 10 years
> before only twice that ill.
>
> I see no indication that the issues addressed are taken seriously, so I see
> no safe space for me to be present. In my childhood I was bullied for being
> different, I am not interested in a second episode now.
>
>
>
>
> From my parents I have learned to lend others always a helping hand where I
> can. As such I was happy to be able to help the organisers of various
> conferences and I always tried to make it a comfortable place for everyone.
>
> To my regret I have been informed that some people have indicated that I
> have given them an unpleasant feeling. You must know that I never ever had
> such intention (also still largely unsure what of me has given you this
> emotion) and I am feeling bad that I gave you such feeling. My apologies!
>
>
> Some people have indicated with last year's conference that they had an
> impression of me while I never ever had intended as such. In the past
> period I have been thinking about it what would make some people think that
> I gave that impression. This includes that some people think that I was
> flirting or something with other people, while I actually had no interest
> in the other.
>
> I suspect it might have something to do that I almost never really
> introduced myself as I always thought that widely diverse people in our
> movement would respect me in my diversity.
>
>
> Perhaps it is good to create some clarity. Traditionally looking, I
> understand people expect me as "man" to fall on women, but I do not fall on
> the women present at the conferences, as well as that I have a different
> gender identification. In other words: LGBT+   Also I am autistic, having
> aspergers, having sensory overloads, being claustrophobic, having a hearing
> problem, avoiding touching, having an eidetic memory (photographic memory),
> etc, being divergent in comparison to many others, I am feeling a bit
> socially clumsy.
>
> The first 8 years in the wiki world I was not feeling safe to meet anyone.
> In 2011 I visited the first wiki event when Wikipedia celebrated its 10th
> birthday. I felt more and more safe and joined more events. You might have
> seen me with my large enthusiasm as I feel by providing knowledge to the
> world, we make the world a better place for anyone. Now 8 years later I am
> leaving as I am not feeling safe again.
>
> But please, do not get me wrong. I live in a country that would probably
> win the world championships in complaining. I believe everyone has the
> right to complain, as that I see as part of the basic rights of freedom of
> expression and thought. It matters however what happens next with
> complaints. Every complaint should be judged by independent individuals,
> with impartiality, without also any *appearance* of partiality, with taking
> into account *all* information, with care and respect to all individuals
> involved. (etc) Also anyone has the right to defend themselves against
> allegations *before* conclusions are drawn and before decisions are made.
> Among other things, three times a conclusion was drawn without talking with
> me, with as excuse "we know how he thinks", sorry, but that is a heavy
> insult to me.
>
> Behind the scenes I have been trying to address the issues with dialogues,
> as well as various other people, who have indicated their concerns, offered
> help, offered (actual) solutions, tried to intermediate, etc etc, zero
> results, zero self reflection.
>
> There is a limit of what a human being can bear, my limit is here.
>
>
>
> In the world, people have been discriminated for their religion, political
> beliefs, the colour of their skin, because of their gender, because of a
> different gender identity, how they look like, ..., or just because they
> are considered to be "weird" when people do not understand the other. I
> would prefer that we do not copy that and instead organise a civilised
> complaint handling that works independently.
>
>
>
> Many of you gave me a welcome feeling, independent from who/how I am. Thank
> you!
>
> As I likely will not meet you again, the one thing that rests me to say is:
> thank you for collaborating, talking and sharing your thoughts, I wish you
> all the best!
>
>
> Romaine
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
_______________________________________________
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New messages to: [hidden email]
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

Santiago Navarro-2
It is very sad to read this e-mail. I had the luck of meeting you
several times. I wish you the best in your life.

Thank you for all these time working for free knowledge.

El 2019-06-20 17:59, Gerard Meijssen escribió:

> Hoi Romaine,
> I am sad. It has been a pleasure to work with you. Your energy has been
> inspiring.
>
> I hope that we will find each other whenever, wherever.
> Thank you Romaine :)
>         Gerard
>
> On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 at 13:15, Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>>  Dear community,
>>
>> First I need to mention that the message I sent a few days ago had too
>> limited information regarding the context of the message. The e-mail
>> was
>> written by me personally alone, written from my perspective. The email
>> contained an overview what has happened, written based on e-mails and
>> eyewitnesses. So if anyone would say it is not true, please add
>> {{Citation
>> needed}} to that person's saying.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> About a month ago I have decided that I will indefinitely no longer
>> attend
>> any WMF funded events as result of bullying, attempts to silence me,
>> intimidation and treats against me. This has resulted in that I feel
>> extremely unsafe as the result of the behaviour of only a few
>> individuals.
>>
>> This has lead that since the start of this occurring about 18 months
>> ago I
>> have been over a dozen of times very ill, while I was in the 10 years
>> before only twice that ill.
>>
>> I see no indication that the issues addressed are taken seriously, so
>> I see
>> no safe space for me to be present. In my childhood I was bullied for
>> being
>> different, I am not interested in a second episode now.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From my parents I have learned to lend others always a helping hand
>> where I
>> can. As such I was happy to be able to help the organisers of various
>> conferences and I always tried to make it a comfortable place for
>> everyone.
>>
>> To my regret I have been informed that some people have indicated that
>> I
>> have given them an unpleasant feeling. You must know that I never ever
>> had
>> such intention (also still largely unsure what of me has given you
>> this
>> emotion) and I am feeling bad that I gave you such feeling. My
>> apologies!
>>
>>
>> Some people have indicated with last year's conference that they had
>> an
>> impression of me while I never ever had intended as such. In the past
>> period I have been thinking about it what would make some people think
>> that
>> I gave that impression. This includes that some people think that I
>> was
>> flirting or something with other people, while I actually had no
>> interest
>> in the other.
>>
>> I suspect it might have something to do that I almost never really
>> introduced myself as I always thought that widely diverse people in
>> our
>> movement would respect me in my diversity.
>>
>>
>> Perhaps it is good to create some clarity. Traditionally looking, I
>> understand people expect me as "man" to fall on women, but I do not
>> fall on
>> the women present at the conferences, as well as that I have a
>> different
>> gender identification. In other words: LGBT+   Also I am autistic,
>> having
>> aspergers, having sensory overloads, being claustrophobic, having a
>> hearing
>> problem, avoiding touching, having an eidetic memory (photographic
>> memory),
>> etc, being divergent in comparison to many others, I am feeling a bit
>> socially clumsy.
>>
>> The first 8 years in the wiki world I was not feeling safe to meet
>> anyone.
>> In 2011 I visited the first wiki event when Wikipedia celebrated its
>> 10th
>> birthday. I felt more and more safe and joined more events. You might
>> have
>> seen me with my large enthusiasm as I feel by providing knowledge to
>> the
>> world, we make the world a better place for anyone. Now 8 years later
>> I am
>> leaving as I am not feeling safe again.
>>
>> But please, do not get me wrong. I live in a country that would
>> probably
>> win the world championships in complaining. I believe everyone has the
>> right to complain, as that I see as part of the basic rights of
>> freedom of
>> expression and thought. It matters however what happens next with
>> complaints. Every complaint should be judged by independent
>> individuals,
>> with impartiality, without also any *appearance* of partiality, with
>> taking
>> into account *all* information, with care and respect to all
>> individuals
>> involved. (etc) Also anyone has the right to defend themselves against
>> allegations *before* conclusions are drawn and before decisions are
>> made.
>> Among other things, three times a conclusion was drawn without talking
>> with
>> me, with as excuse "we know how he thinks", sorry, but that is a heavy
>> insult to me.
>>
>> Behind the scenes I have been trying to address the issues with
>> dialogues,
>> as well as various other people, who have indicated their concerns,
>> offered
>> help, offered (actual) solutions, tried to intermediate, etc etc, zero
>> results, zero self reflection.
>>
>> There is a limit of what a human being can bear, my limit is here.
>>
>>
>>
>> In the world, people have been discriminated for their religion,
>> political
>> beliefs, the colour of their skin, because of their gender, because of
>> a
>> different gender identity, how they look like, ..., or just because
>> they
>> are considered to be "weird" when people do not understand the other.
>> I
>> would prefer that we do not copy that and instead organise a civilised
>> complaint handling that works independently.
>>
>>
>>
>> Many of you gave me a welcome feeling, independent from who/how I am.
>> Thank
>> you!
>>
>> As I likely will not meet you again, the one thing that rests me to
>> say is:
>> thank you for collaborating, talking and sharing your thoughts, I wish
>> you
>> all the best!
>>
>>
>> Romaine
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> New messages to: [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>

--
Santiago Navarro Sanz
Presidente
Wikimedia España
www.wikimedia.es

_______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

Rehman Abubakr
In reply to this post by camelia boban
Hi Romaine,

I completely agree with Camelia, and would like to echo the same.

Most of us are weird in some way, so don't feel bad. Even after meeting hundreds of people from all over the world, I still have a very hard time socialising "normally". I've been this way pretty much as far as I can remember. But the diverseness (a.k.a. weirdness) of Wikimedians allowed me to simply be who I am, and be happy. I know a number of people also consider me odd, but as of lately I'm now more than ok with that.

That being said, most of the time it is so easy for people to hurt others by reacting without thinking, even for the briefest of moments. And unfortunate things can happen in the best places we know. My little advise would be to let it go and move on. Don't let it get the best of you. Hopefully those who put you down, intentionally or unintentionally, will step-up to make things right someday.

I've met you a number of times in various parts of the world, although briefly on all occasions (I'm bad at maintaining long conversations - a party pooper of sorts!), and I know from your words, expressions, and body language, that your are an amazing person with a very warm heart.

Cheer up, and don't cling on darker thoughts. It troubles no one other than the person clinging to it.

Goodnight from here.



Yours truly,


Rehman Abubakr (Roy)<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Rehman>

OTRS agent, Admin (English Wikipedia, Commons), Contributor (Wikidata, Meta)
User:Rehman<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Rehman> | Talkpage<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Rehman> | [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]> | UG-LK<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Community_User_Group_Sri_Lanka/English>

________________________________
From: Wikimedia-l <[hidden email]> on behalf of camelia boban <[hidden email]>
Sent: 20 June 2019 19:57
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

One way or another, as nerds, we are all weird. I felt in love with this
movement when I realized that anyone inside would not have felt a stranger.
I live in Rome, where there is the habit of hugging and / or kissing each
other on one cheek and another when we meet. In the Arab world I saw that
the kisses they give are 3. At this point, I will think twice before doing
it.  In the MeeToo era we must be careful not to exaggerate, striving to
understand the difference between harassment and what can sometimes be
rudeness only or, in this case, sensitivity and affection expressed in
another way congenital to us.

Let us remember that behind what we perceive as "different" there is a
human being, with his story and his desire for interment and to be part of
something greater, a community.

I will miss you Romaine, I will miss your tenderness and I am so sorry
about how things went and how bad you are.

I don't know about you wikipedians, but I feel terribly sad. And defeat,
because I don't understand what's happening to us.


*Camelia*














Il giorno gio 20 giu 2019 alle ore 13:15 Romaine Wiki <
[hidden email]> ha scritto:

>  Dear community,
>
> First I need to mention that the message I sent a few days ago had too
> limited information regarding the context of the message. The e-mail was
> written by me personally alone, written from my perspective. The email
> contained an overview what has happened, written based on e-mails and
> eyewitnesses. So if anyone would say it is not true, please add {{Citation
> needed}} to that person's saying.
>
>
>
>
> About a month ago I have decided that I will indefinitely no longer attend
> any WMF funded events as result of bullying, attempts to silence me,
> intimidation and treats against me. This has resulted in that I feel
> extremely unsafe as the result of the behaviour of only a few individuals.
>
> This has lead that since the start of this occurring about 18 months ago I
> have been over a dozen of times very ill, while I was in the 10 years
> before only twice that ill.
>
> I see no indication that the issues addressed are taken seriously, so I see
> no safe space for me to be present. In my childhood I was bullied for being
> different, I am not interested in a second episode now.
>
>
>
>
> From my parents I have learned to lend others always a helping hand where I
> can. As such I was happy to be able to help the organisers of various
> conferences and I always tried to make it a comfortable place for everyone.
>
> To my regret I have been informed that some people have indicated that I
> have given them an unpleasant feeling. You must know that I never ever had
> such intention (also still largely unsure what of me has given you this
> emotion) and I am feeling bad that I gave you such feeling. My apologies!
>
>
> Some people have indicated with last year's conference that they had an
> impression of me while I never ever had intended as such. In the past
> period I have been thinking about it what would make some people think that
> I gave that impression. This includes that some people think that I was
> flirting or something with other people, while I actually had no interest
> in the other.
>
> I suspect it might have something to do that I almost never really
> introduced myself as I always thought that widely diverse people in our
> movement would respect me in my diversity.
>
>
> Perhaps it is good to create some clarity. Traditionally looking, I
> understand people expect me as "man" to fall on women, but I do not fall on
> the women present at the conferences, as well as that I have a different
> gender identification. In other words: LGBT+   Also I am autistic, having
> aspergers, having sensory overloads, being claustrophobic, having a hearing
> problem, avoiding touching, having an eidetic memory (photographic memory),
> etc, being divergent in comparison to many others, I am feeling a bit
> socially clumsy.
>
> The first 8 years in the wiki world I was not feeling safe to meet anyone.
> In 2011 I visited the first wiki event when Wikipedia celebrated its 10th
> birthday. I felt more and more safe and joined more events. You might have
> seen me with my large enthusiasm as I feel by providing knowledge to the
> world, we make the world a better place for anyone. Now 8 years later I am
> leaving as I am not feeling safe again.
>
> But please, do not get me wrong. I live in a country that would probably
> win the world championships in complaining. I believe everyone has the
> right to complain, as that I see as part of the basic rights of freedom of
> expression and thought. It matters however what happens next with
> complaints. Every complaint should be judged by independent individuals,
> with impartiality, without also any *appearance* of partiality, with taking
> into account *all* information, with care and respect to all individuals
> involved. (etc) Also anyone has the right to defend themselves against
> allegations *before* conclusions are drawn and before decisions are made.
> Among other things, three times a conclusion was drawn without talking with
> me, with as excuse "we know how he thinks", sorry, but that is a heavy
> insult to me.
>
> Behind the scenes I have been trying to address the issues with dialogues,
> as well as various other people, who have indicated their concerns, offered
> help, offered (actual) solutions, tried to intermediate, etc etc, zero
> results, zero self reflection.
>
> There is a limit of what a human being can bear, my limit is here.
>
>
>
> In the world, people have been discriminated for their religion, political
> beliefs, the colour of their skin, because of their gender, because of a
> different gender identity, how they look like, ..., or just because they
> are considered to be "weird" when people do not understand the other. I
> would prefer that we do not copy that and instead organise a civilised
> complaint handling that works independently.
>
>
>
> Many of you gave me a welcome feeling, independent from who/how I am. Thank
> you!
>
> As I likely will not meet you again, the one thing that rests me to say is:
> thank you for collaborating, talking and sharing your thoughts, I wish you
> all the best!
>
>
> Romaine
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

Dennis During
In reply to this post by Romaine Wiki-2
I am ashamed that the movement has a climate that allows this unfortunate
outcome

On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 7:15 AM Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]> wrote:

>  Dear community,
>
>
> About a month ago I have decided that I will indefinitely no longer attend
> any WMF funded events as result of bullying, attempts to silence me,
> intimidation and treats against me. This has resulted in that I feel
> extremely unsafe as the result of the behaviour of only a few individuals.
>
>
--
Dennis C. During
_______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

Caroline Becker
This is such a lost. Not only did you waisted an opportunity to learn and
grow from your mistakes the first time, you reiterate here, showing no
willingness to grow and learn.

But why would you take the difficult path, when by just claiming your right
to "weirdness" (which I guess only apply to you and none to the people you
hurt), you're rewarding with public support ?

Caroline


Le jeu. 20 juin 2019 à 18:55, Dennis During <[hidden email]> a écrit :

> I am ashamed that the movement has a climate that allows this unfortunate
> outcome
>
> On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 7:15 AM Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> >  Dear community,
> >
> >
> > About a month ago I have decided that I will indefinitely no longer
> attend
> > any WMF funded events as result of bullying, attempts to silence me,
> > intimidation and treats against me. This has resulted in that I feel
> > extremely unsafe as the result of the behaviour of only a few
> individuals.
> >
> >
> --
> Dennis C. During
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

Ilario Valdelli
In reply to this post by Romaine Wiki-2
Hi Romaine
you know that you are always welcome.

And if you have to categorize yourself to be accepted, we should say that
the community is becoming insane.

We accept Romaine because is Romane non because he is man/woman,
black/white, LGBT/Etero, etc.

Kind regards

On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 1:15 PM Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]> wrote:

>  Dear community,
>
> First I need to mention that the message I sent a few days ago had too
> limited information regarding the context of the message. The e-mail was
> written by me personally alone, written from my perspective. The email
> contained an overview what has happened, written based on e-mails and
> eyewitnesses. So if anyone would say it is not true, please add {{Citation
> needed}} to that person's saying.
>
>
>
>
> About a month ago I have decided that I will indefinitely no longer attend
> any WMF funded events as result of bullying, attempts to silence me,
> intimidation and treats against me. This has resulted in that I feel
> extremely unsafe as the result of the behaviour of only a few individuals.
>
> This has lead that since the start of this occurring about 18 months ago I
> have been over a dozen of times very ill, while I was in the 10 years
> before only twice that ill.
>
> I see no indication that the issues addressed are taken seriously, so I see
> no safe space for me to be present. In my childhood I was bullied for being
> different, I am not interested in a second episode now.
>
>
>
>
> From my parents I have learned to lend others always a helping hand where I
> can. As such I was happy to be able to help the organisers of various
> conferences and I always tried to make it a comfortable place for everyone.
>
> To my regret I have been informed that some people have indicated that I
> have given them an unpleasant feeling. You must know that I never ever had
> such intention (also still largely unsure what of me has given you this
> emotion) and I am feeling bad that I gave you such feeling. My apologies!
>
>
> Some people have indicated with last year's conference that they had an
> impression of me while I never ever had intended as such. In the past
> period I have been thinking about it what would make some people think that
> I gave that impression. This includes that some people think that I was
> flirting or something with other people, while I actually had no interest
> in the other.
>
> I suspect it might have something to do that I almost never really
> introduced myself as I always thought that widely diverse people in our
> movement would respect me in my diversity.
>
>
> Perhaps it is good to create some clarity. Traditionally looking, I
> understand people expect me as "man" to fall on women, but I do not fall on
> the women present at the conferences, as well as that I have a different
> gender identification. In other words: LGBT+   Also I am autistic, having
> aspergers, having sensory overloads, being claustrophobic, having a hearing
> problem, avoiding touching, having an eidetic memory (photographic memory),
> etc, being divergent in comparison to many others, I am feeling a bit
> socially clumsy.
>
> The first 8 years in the wiki world I was not feeling safe to meet anyone.
> In 2011 I visited the first wiki event when Wikipedia celebrated its 10th
> birthday. I felt more and more safe and joined more events. You might have
> seen me with my large enthusiasm as I feel by providing knowledge to the
> world, we make the world a better place for anyone. Now 8 years later I am
> leaving as I am not feeling safe again.
>
> But please, do not get me wrong. I live in a country that would probably
> win the world championships in complaining. I believe everyone has the
> right to complain, as that I see as part of the basic rights of freedom of
> expression and thought. It matters however what happens next with
> complaints. Every complaint should be judged by independent individuals,
> with impartiality, without also any *appearance* of partiality, with taking
> into account *all* information, with care and respect to all individuals
> involved. (etc) Also anyone has the right to defend themselves against
> allegations *before* conclusions are drawn and before decisions are made.
> Among other things, three times a conclusion was drawn without talking with
> me, with as excuse "we know how he thinks", sorry, but that is a heavy
> insult to me.
>
> Behind the scenes I have been trying to address the issues with dialogues,
> as well as various other people, who have indicated their concerns, offered
> help, offered (actual) solutions, tried to intermediate, etc etc, zero
> results, zero self reflection.
>
> There is a limit of what a human being can bear, my limit is here.
>
>
>
> In the world, people have been discriminated for their religion, political
> beliefs, the colour of their skin, because of their gender, because of a
> different gender identity, how they look like, ..., or just because they
> are considered to be "weird" when people do not understand the other. I
> would prefer that we do not copy that and instead organise a civilised
> complaint handling that works independently.
>
>
>
> Many of you gave me a welcome feeling, independent from who/how I am. Thank
> you!
>
> As I likely will not meet you again, the one thing that rests me to say is:
> thank you for collaborating, talking and sharing your thoughts, I wish you
> all the best!
>
>
> Romaine
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>



--
Ilario Valdelli
Wikimedia CH
Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
Wikipedia: Ilario <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Ilario>
Skype: valdelli
Tel: +41764821371
http://www.wikimedia.ch
_______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

Gerard Meijssen-3
In reply to this post by Caroline Becker
Caroline,
For me this is not your story. Your insistence of making it so has quite
the opposite effect. I have known Romaine, the tireless efforts for us all
he has given us over the years, I grieve for our collective loss. I do not
know you and you are intruding on what is a feeling shared by many. It may
help you when you grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the
feelings of others. Maybe it is too difficult for you, I do not know as I
do not know you at all.

What I wonder is to what extend do you know Romaine, to what extend are you
stuck in your pov.
Thanks,
     GerardM

On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 at 19:00, Caroline Becker <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> This is such a lost. Not only did you waisted an opportunity to learn and
> grow from your mistakes the first time, you reiterate here, showing no
> willingness to grow and learn.
>
> But why would you take the difficult path, when by just claiming your right
> to "weirdness" (which I guess only apply to you and none to the people you
> hurt), you're rewarding with public support ?
>
> Caroline
>
>
> Le jeu. 20 juin 2019 à 18:55, Dennis During <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>
> > I am ashamed that the movement has a climate that allows this unfortunate
> > outcome
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 7:15 AM Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >  Dear community,
> > >
> > >
> > > About a month ago I have decided that I will indefinitely no longer
> > attend
> > > any WMF funded events as result of bullying, attempts to silence me,
> > > intimidation and treats against me. This has resulted in that I feel
> > > extremely unsafe as the result of the behaviour of only a few
> > individuals.
> > >
> > >
> > --
> > Dennis C. During
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
_______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

Paulo Santos Perneta
In reply to this post by Romaine Wiki-2
I am very sad and depressed with this outcome, especially with someone as
Romaine, which I am quite lucky to know personally.

And it is very true that now one has to have eyes in their back and be
extra careful when going to WMF run events, as the risk of abuse of T&S is
quite real.

Dangerous times.

Paulo

Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]> escreveu no dia quinta, 20/06/2019
à(s) 12:15:

>  Dear community,
>
> First I need to mention that the message I sent a few days ago had too
> limited information regarding the context of the message. The e-mail was
> written by me personally alone, written from my perspective. The email
> contained an overview what has happened, written based on e-mails and
> eyewitnesses. So if anyone would say it is not true, please add {{Citation
> needed}} to that person's saying.
>
>
>
>
> About a month ago I have decided that I will indefinitely no longer attend
> any WMF funded events as result of bullying, attempts to silence me,
> intimidation and treats against me. This has resulted in that I feel
> extremely unsafe as the result of the behaviour of only a few individuals.
>
> This has lead that since the start of this occurring about 18 months ago I
> have been over a dozen of times very ill, while I was in the 10 years
> before only twice that ill.
>
> I see no indication that the issues addressed are taken seriously, so I see
> no safe space for me to be present. In my childhood I was bullied for being
> different, I am not interested in a second episode now.
>
>
>
>
> From my parents I have learned to lend others always a helping hand where I
> can. As such I was happy to be able to help the organisers of various
> conferences and I always tried to make it a comfortable place for everyone.
>
> To my regret I have been informed that some people have indicated that I
> have given them an unpleasant feeling. You must know that I never ever had
> such intention (also still largely unsure what of me has given you this
> emotion) and I am feeling bad that I gave you such feeling. My apologies!
>
>
> Some people have indicated with last year's conference that they had an
> impression of me while I never ever had intended as such. In the past
> period I have been thinking about it what would make some people think that
> I gave that impression. This includes that some people think that I was
> flirting or something with other people, while I actually had no interest
> in the other.
>
> I suspect it might have something to do that I almost never really
> introduced myself as I always thought that widely diverse people in our
> movement would respect me in my diversity.
>
>
> Perhaps it is good to create some clarity. Traditionally looking, I
> understand people expect me as "man" to fall on women, but I do not fall on
> the women present at the conferences, as well as that I have a different
> gender identification. In other words: LGBT+   Also I am autistic, having
> aspergers, having sensory overloads, being claustrophobic, having a hearing
> problem, avoiding touching, having an eidetic memory (photographic memory),
> etc, being divergent in comparison to many others, I am feeling a bit
> socially clumsy.
>
> The first 8 years in the wiki world I was not feeling safe to meet anyone.
> In 2011 I visited the first wiki event when Wikipedia celebrated its 10th
> birthday. I felt more and more safe and joined more events. You might have
> seen me with my large enthusiasm as I feel by providing knowledge to the
> world, we make the world a better place for anyone. Now 8 years later I am
> leaving as I am not feeling safe again.
>
> But please, do not get me wrong. I live in a country that would probably
> win the world championships in complaining. I believe everyone has the
> right to complain, as that I see as part of the basic rights of freedom of
> expression and thought. It matters however what happens next with
> complaints. Every complaint should be judged by independent individuals,
> with impartiality, without also any *appearance* of partiality, with taking
> into account *all* information, with care and respect to all individuals
> involved. (etc) Also anyone has the right to defend themselves against
> allegations *before* conclusions are drawn and before decisions are made.
> Among other things, three times a conclusion was drawn without talking with
> me, with as excuse "we know how he thinks", sorry, but that is a heavy
> insult to me.
>
> Behind the scenes I have been trying to address the issues with dialogues,
> as well as various other people, who have indicated their concerns, offered
> help, offered (actual) solutions, tried to intermediate, etc etc, zero
> results, zero self reflection.
>
> There is a limit of what a human being can bear, my limit is here.
>
>
>
> In the world, people have been discriminated for their religion, political
> beliefs, the colour of their skin, because of their gender, because of a
> different gender identity, how they look like, ..., or just because they
> are considered to be "weird" when people do not understand the other. I
> would prefer that we do not copy that and instead organise a civilised
> complaint handling that works independently.
>
>
>
> Many of you gave me a welcome feeling, independent from who/how I am. Thank
> you!
>
> As I likely will not meet you again, the one thing that rests me to say is:
> thank you for collaborating, talking and sharing your thoughts, I wish you
> all the best!
>
>
> Romaine
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

Pierre-Selim
In reply to this post by Gerard Meijssen-3
Her POV ?

Well I can confirm what Caroline said.

What more do you want ? To verify all other reports ?

It's sad that things have escalated this far, but may be it's time to
wonder why it escalated like that. There was multiple incidents reported.
Things that should have stayed private were told on this mailing list by
Romaine... well when do we stop this ?

Please keep in mind when you cast your support here that people who have
reported Romaine might be reading this.

Le jeu. 20 juin 2019 à 23:12, Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]> a
écrit :

> Caroline,
> For me this is not your story. Your insistence of making it so has quite
> the opposite effect. I have known Romaine, the tireless efforts for us all
> he has given us over the years, I grieve for our collective loss. I do not
> know you and you are intruding on what is a feeling shared by many. It may
> help you when you grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the
> feelings of others. Maybe it is too difficult for you, I do not know as I
> do not know you at all.
>
> What I wonder is to what extend do you know Romaine, to what extend are you
> stuck in your pov.
> Thanks,
>      GerardM
>
> On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 at 19:00, Caroline Becker <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > This is such a lost. Not only did you waisted an opportunity to learn and
> > grow from your mistakes the first time, you reiterate here, showing no
> > willingness to grow and learn.
> >
> > But why would you take the difficult path, when by just claiming your
> right
> > to "weirdness" (which I guess only apply to you and none to the people
> you
> > hurt), you're rewarding with public support ?
> >
> > Caroline
> >
> >
> > Le jeu. 20 juin 2019 à 18:55, Dennis During <[hidden email]> a
> écrit :
> >
> > > I am ashamed that the movement has a climate that allows this
> unfortunate
> > > outcome
> > >
> > > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 7:15 AM Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >  Dear community,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > About a month ago I have decided that I will indefinitely no longer
> > > attend
> > > > any WMF funded events as result of bullying, attempts to silence me,
> > > > intimidation and treats against me. This has resulted in that I feel
> > > > extremely unsafe as the result of the behaviour of only a few
> > > individuals.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > --
> > > Dennis C. During
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

GorillaWarfare
I do not know Romaine, I do not know Caroline, and I do not know much about
the events that have led up to all of this other than what has been said on
this mailing list. It is easy to take sides in cases like these, based on
who you know best, your past experiences with that person, and a multitude
of other reasons. I suspect no one truly knows the whole story (even the
folks who were directly involved—after all, you can never know the
intentions of another person, or how they are interpreting your own
actions). But what we do know is that some actions Romaine took led to
Trust & Safety deciding they needed to intervene. They are tasked with
keeping people within our movement safe, both online and in person at
events. In my experience they do an extremely good job.

It is extremely disappointing, and *extremely typical* of the Wikimedia
movement, to see an entire thread like this dedicated to supporting someone
who Trust & Safety has found to have acted in such a way that they had to
intervene. It is even more disappointing to see a person who was affected
by his actions told "this is not your story" and "it may help you when you
grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the
feelings of others."

If you're wondering why women leave the Wikimedia movement, and why
Wikimedia has such a bad harassment problem in general, just reflect on
this thread.

– Molly (GorillaWarfare)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:GorillaWarfare


On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 6:26 PM Pierre-Selim <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Her POV ?
>
> Well I can confirm what Caroline said.
>
> What more do you want ? To verify all other reports ?
>
> It's sad that things have escalated this far, but may be it's time to
> wonder why it escalated like that. There was multiple incidents reported.
> Things that should have stayed private were told on this mailing list by
> Romaine... well when do we stop this ?
>
> Please keep in mind when you cast your support here that people who have
> reported Romaine might be reading this.
>
> Le jeu. 20 juin 2019 à 23:12, Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]>
> a
> écrit :
>
> > Caroline,
> > For me this is not your story. Your insistence of making it so has quite
> > the opposite effect. I have known Romaine, the tireless efforts for us
> all
> > he has given us over the years, I grieve for our collective loss. I do
> not
> > know you and you are intruding on what is a feeling shared by many. It
> may
> > help you when you grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the
> > feelings of others. Maybe it is too difficult for you, I do not know as I
> > do not know you at all.
> >
> > What I wonder is to what extend do you know Romaine, to what extend are
> you
> > stuck in your pov.
> > Thanks,
> >      GerardM
> >
> > On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 at 19:00, Caroline Becker <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > This is such a lost. Not only did you waisted an opportunity to learn
> and
> > > grow from your mistakes the first time, you reiterate here, showing no
> > > willingness to grow and learn.
> > >
> > > But why would you take the difficult path, when by just claiming your
> > right
> > > to "weirdness" (which I guess only apply to you and none to the people
> > you
> > > hurt), you're rewarding with public support ?
> > >
> > > Caroline
> > >
> > >
> > > Le jeu. 20 juin 2019 à 18:55, Dennis During <[hidden email]> a
> > écrit :
> > >
> > > > I am ashamed that the movement has a climate that allows this
> > unfortunate
> > > > outcome
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 7:15 AM Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]
> >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >  Dear community,
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > About a month ago I have decided that I will indefinitely no longer
> > > > attend
> > > > > any WMF funded events as result of bullying, attempts to silence
> me,
> > > > > intimidation and treats against me. This has resulted in that I
> feel
> > > > > extremely unsafe as the result of the behaviour of only a few
> > > > individuals.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Dennis C. During
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

Philip Kopetzky
Thanks Molly for your thoughtful words, I really hope your words make some
people think about their own replies in this thread.

On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 at 23:42, GorillaWarfare <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> I do not know Romaine, I do not know Caroline, and I do not know much about
> the events that have led up to all of this other than what has been said on
> this mailing list. It is easy to take sides in cases like these, based on
> who you know best, your past experiences with that person, and a multitude
> of other reasons. I suspect no one truly knows the whole story (even the
> folks who were directly involved—after all, you can never know the
> intentions of another person, or how they are interpreting your own
> actions). But what we do know is that some actions Romaine took led to
> Trust & Safety deciding they needed to intervene. They are tasked with
> keeping people within our movement safe, both online and in person at
> events. In my experience they do an extremely good job.
>
> It is extremely disappointing, and *extremely typical* of the Wikimedia
> movement, to see an entire thread like this dedicated to supporting someone
> who Trust & Safety has found to have acted in such a way that they had to
> intervene. It is even more disappointing to see a person who was affected
> by his actions told "this is not your story" and "it may help you when you
> grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the
> feelings of others."
>
> If you're wondering why women leave the Wikimedia movement, and why
> Wikimedia has such a bad harassment problem in general, just reflect on
> this thread.
>
> – Molly (GorillaWarfare)
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:GorillaWarfare
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 6:26 PM Pierre-Selim <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Her POV ?
> >
> > Well I can confirm what Caroline said.
> >
> > What more do you want ? To verify all other reports ?
> >
> > It's sad that things have escalated this far, but may be it's time to
> > wonder why it escalated like that. There was multiple incidents reported.
> > Things that should have stayed private were told on this mailing list by
> > Romaine... well when do we stop this ?
> >
> > Please keep in mind when you cast your support here that people who have
> > reported Romaine might be reading this.
> >
> > Le jeu. 20 juin 2019 à 23:12, Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]
> >
> > a
> > écrit :
> >
> > > Caroline,
> > > For me this is not your story. Your insistence of making it so has
> quite
> > > the opposite effect. I have known Romaine, the tireless efforts for us
> > all
> > > he has given us over the years, I grieve for our collective loss. I do
> > not
> > > know you and you are intruding on what is a feeling shared by many. It
> > may
> > > help you when you grow some sensitivity and respect this experience,
> the
> > > feelings of others. Maybe it is too difficult for you, I do not know
> as I
> > > do not know you at all.
> > >
> > > What I wonder is to what extend do you know Romaine, to what extend are
> > you
> > > stuck in your pov.
> > > Thanks,
> > >      GerardM
> > >
> > > On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 at 19:00, Caroline Becker <[hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > This is such a lost. Not only did you waisted an opportunity to learn
> > and
> > > > grow from your mistakes the first time, you reiterate here, showing
> no
> > > > willingness to grow and learn.
> > > >
> > > > But why would you take the difficult path, when by just claiming your
> > > right
> > > > to "weirdness" (which I guess only apply to you and none to the
> people
> > > you
> > > > hurt), you're rewarding with public support ?
> > > >
> > > > Caroline
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Le jeu. 20 juin 2019 à 18:55, Dennis During <[hidden email]> a
> > > écrit :
> > > >
> > > > > I am ashamed that the movement has a climate that allows this
> > > unfortunate
> > > > > outcome
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 7:15 AM Romaine Wiki <
> [hidden email]
> > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >  Dear community,
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > About a month ago I have decided that I will indefinitely no
> longer
> > > > > attend
> > > > > > any WMF funded events as result of bullying, attempts to silence
> > me,
> > > > > > intimidation and treats against me. This has resulted in that I
> > feel
> > > > > > extremely unsafe as the result of the behaviour of only a few
> > > > > individuals.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Dennis C. During
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
_______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

Chris Keating-2
In reply to this post by GorillaWarfare
>
> It is extremely disappointing, and *extremely typical* of the Wikimedia
> movement, to see an entire thread like this dedicated to supporting someone
> who Trust & Safety has found to have acted in such a way that they had to
> intervene. It is even more disappointing to see a person who was affected
> by his actions told "this is not your story" and "it may help you when you
> grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the
> feelings of others."
>
> If you're wondering why women leave the Wikimedia movement, and why
> Wikimedia has such a bad harassment problem in general, just reflect on
> this thread.


Thank you, Molly, for expressing what I was just trying to summon the
energy to write.

Chris
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

Nathan Awrich
In reply to this post by GorillaWarfare
I think it's OK to mourn the loss of someone's future contributions and
participation, without purporting to make a decision on the substance of
any accusations. I read Romaine's e-mail and thought it sad that he felt it
necessary to withdraw. I also am not blindly trusting of T&S. This is the
same team that took the extraordinary and unique step of banning an en.wp
admin for saying "fuck arbcom", apparently not anticipating or taking any
steps to mitigate the inevitable blowback.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

Effe iets anders
In reply to this post by Philip Kopetzky
Gerard, I think your comment is highly inappropriate. I don't generally
like to pile on, but this needs calling out. When discussing these
sensitive topics, the very least we can expect, is a careful approach to
the matter.

I don't know the underlying situation well enough to establish who's right,
to verify claims or to find whether the actions taken are reasonable (be it
towards Romaine or towards the complainants). I can only assume you have
roughly the same amount of information - and in such a situation a level of
humility would be fitting.

We can discuss process, but should never say that involved parties 'make
this about themselves'. Leave that determination to those who are actually
familiar with all the facts.

Lodewijk

On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 4:03 PM Philip Kopetzky <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Thanks Molly for your thoughtful words, I really hope your words make some
> people think about their own replies in this thread.
>
> On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 at 23:42, GorillaWarfare <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > I do not know Romaine, I do not know Caroline, and I do not know much
> about
> > the events that have led up to all of this other than what has been said
> on
> > this mailing list. It is easy to take sides in cases like these, based on
> > who you know best, your past experiences with that person, and a
> multitude
> > of other reasons. I suspect no one truly knows the whole story (even the
> > folks who were directly involved—after all, you can never know the
> > intentions of another person, or how they are interpreting your own
> > actions). But what we do know is that some actions Romaine took led to
> > Trust & Safety deciding they needed to intervene. They are tasked with
> > keeping people within our movement safe, both online and in person at
> > events. In my experience they do an extremely good job.
> >
> > It is extremely disappointing, and *extremely typical* of the Wikimedia
> > movement, to see an entire thread like this dedicated to supporting
> someone
> > who Trust & Safety has found to have acted in such a way that they had to
> > intervene. It is even more disappointing to see a person who was affected
> > by his actions told "this is not your story" and "it may help you when
> you
> > grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the
> > feelings of others."
> >
> > If you're wondering why women leave the Wikimedia movement, and why
> > Wikimedia has such a bad harassment problem in general, just reflect on
> > this thread.
> >
> > – Molly (GorillaWarfare)
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:GorillaWarfare
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 6:26 PM Pierre-Selim <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Her POV ?
> > >
> > > Well I can confirm what Caroline said.
> > >
> > > What more do you want ? To verify all other reports ?
> > >
> > > It's sad that things have escalated this far, but may be it's time to
> > > wonder why it escalated like that. There was multiple incidents
> reported.
> > > Things that should have stayed private were told on this mailing list
> by
> > > Romaine... well when do we stop this ?
> > >
> > > Please keep in mind when you cast your support here that people who
> have
> > > reported Romaine might be reading this.
> > >
> > > Le jeu. 20 juin 2019 à 23:12, Gerard Meijssen <
> [hidden email]
> > >
> > > a
> > > écrit :
> > >
> > > > Caroline,
> > > > For me this is not your story. Your insistence of making it so has
> > quite
> > > > the opposite effect. I have known Romaine, the tireless efforts for
> us
> > > all
> > > > he has given us over the years, I grieve for our collective loss. I
> do
> > > not
> > > > know you and you are intruding on what is a feeling shared by many.
> It
> > > may
> > > > help you when you grow some sensitivity and respect this experience,
> > the
> > > > feelings of others. Maybe it is too difficult for you, I do not know
> > as I
> > > > do not know you at all.
> > > >
> > > > What I wonder is to what extend do you know Romaine, to what extend
> are
> > > you
> > > > stuck in your pov.
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >      GerardM
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 at 19:00, Caroline Becker <
> [hidden email]>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > This is such a lost. Not only did you waisted an opportunity to
> learn
> > > and
> > > > > grow from your mistakes the first time, you reiterate here, showing
> > no
> > > > > willingness to grow and learn.
> > > > >
> > > > > But why would you take the difficult path, when by just claiming
> your
> > > > right
> > > > > to "weirdness" (which I guess only apply to you and none to the
> > people
> > > > you
> > > > > hurt), you're rewarding with public support ?
> > > > >
> > > > > Caroline
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Le jeu. 20 juin 2019 à 18:55, Dennis During <[hidden email]> a
> > > > écrit :
> > > > >
> > > > > > I am ashamed that the movement has a climate that allows this
> > > > unfortunate
> > > > > > outcome
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 7:15 AM Romaine Wiki <
> > [hidden email]
> > > >
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >  Dear community,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > About a month ago I have decided that I will indefinitely no
> > longer
> > > > > > attend
> > > > > > > any WMF funded events as result of bullying, attempts to
> silence
> > > me,
> > > > > > > intimidation and treats against me. This has resulted in that I
> > > feel
> > > > > > > extremely unsafe as the result of the behaviour of only a few
> > > > > > individuals.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Dennis C. During
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
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> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

GorillaWarfare
In reply to this post by Nathan Awrich
Well, no, this is the team that banned an en.wp admin for reasons they are
not able to disclose. It is only community speculation based on a portion
of an email sent to the banned user that has led people to draw the same
conclusion as you, and I suspect that is not the full story. That, however,
is probably a conversation for a different thread, although there are
overlapping themes in that someone who has allegedly done something(s)
negative towards at least one member of our community is being
wholeheartedly defended (and the alleged target vilified) by a community
that does not know the whole story.

- Molly White (GorillaWarfare)

On Thu, Jun 20, 2019, 7:12 PM Nathan <[hidden email]> wrote:

> This is the
> same team that took the extraordinary and unique step of banning an en.wp
> admin for saying "fuck arbcom", apparently not anticipating or taking any
> steps to mitigate the inevitable blowback.
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

Gerard Meijssen-3
In reply to this post by Pierre-Selim
Hoi,
You do not get it. For me this is about saying goodbye. Saying goodbye to
someone I/we truly value. Saying goodbye to someone who we owe gratitude.
This was not allowed to be, we say goodbye and we are told that we are
wrong because a situation where the POV expressed is that we cannot say
goodbye, express our gratitude because they are / feel aggrieved.

I have no opinion on why this situation exists, what transpired. What I
object to is that there is no room given for our feeling of loss. That is
an injustice in its own right.
Thanks,
       GerardM

On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 at 00:26, Pierre-Selim <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Her POV ?
>
> Well I can confirm what Caroline said.
>
> What more do you want ? To verify all other reports ?
>
> It's sad that things have escalated this far, but may be it's time to
> wonder why it escalated like that. There was multiple incidents reported.
> Things that should have stayed private were told on this mailing list by
> Romaine... well when do we stop this ?
>
> Please keep in mind when you cast your support here that people who have
> reported Romaine might be reading this.
>
> Le jeu. 20 juin 2019 à 23:12, Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]>
> a
> écrit :
>
> > Caroline,
> > For me this is not your story. Your insistence of making it so has quite
> > the opposite effect. I have known Romaine, the tireless efforts for us
> all
> > he has given us over the years, I grieve for our collective loss. I do
> not
> > know you and you are intruding on what is a feeling shared by many. It
> may
> > help you when you grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the
> > feelings of others. Maybe it is too difficult for you, I do not know as I
> > do not know you at all.
> >
> > What I wonder is to what extend do you know Romaine, to what extend are
> you
> > stuck in your pov.
> > Thanks,
> >      GerardM
> >
> > On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 at 19:00, Caroline Becker <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > This is such a lost. Not only did you waisted an opportunity to learn
> and
> > > grow from your mistakes the first time, you reiterate here, showing no
> > > willingness to grow and learn.
> > >
> > > But why would you take the difficult path, when by just claiming your
> > right
> > > to "weirdness" (which I guess only apply to you and none to the people
> > you
> > > hurt), you're rewarding with public support ?
> > >
> > > Caroline
> > >
> > >
> > > Le jeu. 20 juin 2019 à 18:55, Dennis During <[hidden email]> a
> > écrit :
> > >
> > > > I am ashamed that the movement has a climate that allows this
> > unfortunate
> > > > outcome
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 7:15 AM Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]
> >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >  Dear community,
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > About a month ago I have decided that I will indefinitely no longer
> > > > attend
> > > > > any WMF funded events as result of bullying, attempts to silence
> me,
> > > > > intimidation and treats against me. This has resulted in that I
> feel
> > > > > extremely unsafe as the result of the behaviour of only a few
> > > > individuals.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Dennis C. During
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
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> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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> > _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l
In reply to this post by Chris Keating-2
First of all I don’t know the context of this conversation. I know that I personnally find that the actions of  Trust& Safety  very valuable and wise. I totally support and trust their judgement.

I am tired of seing their work criticized, and do not appreciate official chapter representants and employees publicly supporting alleged offenders, showing no aknowledgement of the fact that this is very toxic for alleged victims, and does not help to change attitude towards issues of harrassment.

How can we feel safe in the movement if the decisions of T&S are questionned by official members of our movement?

Nattes à chat





Le 21 juin 2019 à 01:04, Chris Keating <[hidden email]> a écrit :

>>
>> It is extremely disappointing, and *extremely typical* of the Wikimedia
>> movement, to see an entire thread like this dedicated to supporting someone
>> who Trust & Safety has found to have acted in such a way that they had to
>> intervene. It is even more disappointing to see a person who was affected
>> by his actions told "this is not your story" and "it may help you when you
>> grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the
>> feelings of others."
>>
>> If you're wondering why women leave the Wikimedia movement, and why
>> Wikimedia has such a bad harassment problem in general, just reflect on
>> this thread.
>
>
> Thank you, Molly, for expressing what I was just trying to summon the
> energy to write.
>
> Chris
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

Peter Southwood
How can we BE safe in the movement if we cannot question the decisions of T&S? (when they appear questionable and unsafe)
Cheers,
Peter

-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l
Sent: Friday, June 21, 2019 7:57 AM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

First of all I don’t know the context of this conversation. I know that I personnally find that the actions of  Trust& Safety  very valuable and wise. I totally support and trust their judgement.

I am tired of seing their work criticized, and do not appreciate official chapter representants and employees publicly supporting alleged offenders, showing no aknowledgement of the fact that this is very toxic for alleged victims, and does not help to change attitude towards issues of harrassment.

How can we feel safe in the movement if the decisions of T&S are questionned by official members of our movement?

Nattes à chat





Le 21 juin 2019 à 01:04, Chris Keating <[hidden email]> a écrit :

>>
>> It is extremely disappointing, and *extremely typical* of the Wikimedia
>> movement, to see an entire thread like this dedicated to supporting someone
>> who Trust & Safety has found to have acted in such a way that they had to
>> intervene. It is even more disappointing to see a person who was affected
>> by his actions told "this is not your story" and "it may help you when you
>> grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the
>> feelings of others."
>>
>> If you're wondering why women leave the Wikimedia movement, and why
>> Wikimedia has such a bad harassment problem in general, just reflect on
>> this thread.
>
>
> Thank you, Molly, for expressing what I was just trying to summon the
> energy to write.
>
> Chris
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>


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