[Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

Isaac Olatunde
Hi Natacha

I am not sure this thread is about whether T&S action was in order or not.

Aside the recent WP:FRAM, I am not aware of a single instance where T&S
action's was criticized largely by the community or those you described as
official representative of movement/chapters. Most opinion expressed at
WP:FRAM are mere speculations and relies entirely on what  Fram thought
might be the reason for their ban.

That being said, some members of the community who are familiar with
Romaine's past works considered them valuable to our movement and I think
that should be respected. Interpreting their comments as endorsement of the
behaviour that led to T&S's action and criticising official representative
of chapters who pen down a farewell note is inappropriate.

Romaine, there are other ways to volunteer and as you may already be aware,
you don't have to attend Wikimedia events to add value to our movement.
There are plenty of ways to make a difference. Personally, I appreciate
your on-wiki works and I hope you will continue the good works. But if you
want to quit contributing altogether, I wish you all the best in your
future endeavor.

Good luck.

Isaac


On Fri, Jun 21, 2019, 6:57 AM Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l <
[hidden email] wrote:

> First of all I don’t know the context of this conversation. I know that I
> personnally find that the actions of  Trust& Safety  very valuable and
> wise. I totally support and trust their judgement.
>
> I am tired of seing their work criticized, and do not appreciate official
> chapter representants and employees publicly supporting alleged offenders,
> showing no aknowledgement of the fact that this is very toxic for alleged
> victims, and does not help to change attitude towards issues of
> harrassment.
>
> How can we feel safe in the movement if the decisions of T&S are
> questionned by official members of our movement?
>
> Nattes à chat
>
>
>
>
>
> Le 21 juin 2019 à 01:04, Chris Keating <[hidden email]> a
> écrit :
>
> >>
> >> It is extremely disappointing, and *extremely typical* of the Wikimedia
> >> movement, to see an entire thread like this dedicated to supporting
> someone
> >> who Trust & Safety has found to have acted in such a way that they had
> to
> >> intervene. It is even more disappointing to see a person who was
> affected
> >> by his actions told "this is not your story" and "it may help you when
> you
> >> grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the
> >> feelings of others."
> >>
> >> If you're wondering why women leave the Wikimedia movement, and why
> >> Wikimedia has such a bad harassment problem in general, just reflect on
> >> this thread.
> >
> >
> > Thank you, Molly, for expressing what I was just trying to summon the
> > energy to write.
> >
> > Chris
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

Philip Kopetzky
In reply to this post by Peter Southwood
Questioning is ok - we might indeed need to introduce some oversight, but
to be honest, I doubt this would solve the trust issue as long as some
people demand full transparency where there can never be full transparency.

Speculating and accusing victims of being the actual perpetrators,
believing the perpetrators more than the victims, perpetrators depicting
themselves as the victims, is a sad default behaviour in our community.
This needs to change. Seriously.

On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 at 08:17, Peter Southwood <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> How can we BE safe in the movement if we cannot question the decisions of
> T&S? (when they appear questionable and unsafe)
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l
> Sent: Friday, June 21, 2019 7:57 AM
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all
>
> First of all I don’t know the context of this conversation. I know that I
> personnally find that the actions of  Trust& Safety  very valuable and
> wise. I totally support and trust their judgement.
>
> I am tired of seing their work criticized, and do not appreciate official
> chapter representants and employees publicly supporting alleged offenders,
> showing no aknowledgement of the fact that this is very toxic for alleged
> victims, and does not help to change attitude towards issues of
> harrassment.
>
> How can we feel safe in the movement if the decisions of T&S are
> questionned by official members of our movement?
>
> Nattes à chat
>
>
>
>
>
> Le 21 juin 2019 à 01:04, Chris Keating <[hidden email]> a
> écrit :
>
> >>
> >> It is extremely disappointing, and *extremely typical* of the Wikimedia
> >> movement, to see an entire thread like this dedicated to supporting
> someone
> >> who Trust & Safety has found to have acted in such a way that they had
> to
> >> intervene. It is even more disappointing to see a person who was
> affected
> >> by his actions told "this is not your story" and "it may help you when
> you
> >> grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the
> >> feelings of others."
> >>
> >> If you're wondering why women leave the Wikimedia movement, and why
> >> Wikimedia has such a bad harassment problem in general, just reflect on
> >> this thread.
> >
> >
> > Thank you, Molly, for expressing what I was just trying to summon the
> > energy to write.
> >
> > Chris
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

Ilario Valdelli
The main problem happens when someone considers to don't have received a
fair assessment.

I understand that the T&S must have a certain role, but I am sorry for the
T&S, the criticisms are part of this role.

Considering that every decision will be accepted unconditionally is not
suitable. To ensure a fair trial, in general two levels of evaluation are
often created with two different "courts" so those who consider themselves
to have been wrongly judged (people can make mistakes), can ask another
"independent" court to be evaluated and to confirm or to reject the first
level. Here it seems to me that T&S always considers itself on the right
side but this sense of infallibility is not the feeling that the community
has.

Apart from all what strikes me is that a person must publicly say his
sexual tendencies because he believes that he has not been judged correctly
and excused, apart from the moral lesson, this thing is very sad because
the T&S has produced an act that has committed an even more serious act.

Imagine that the part recognized in error is right, how will the T&S be
excused? Will it write a letter of public apology?

Kind regards

On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 9:31 AM Philip Kopetzky <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Questioning is ok - we might indeed need to introduce some oversight, but
> to be honest, I doubt this would solve the trust issue as long as some
> people demand full transparency where there can never be full transparency.
>
> Speculating and accusing victims of being the actual perpetrators,
> believing the perpetrators more than the victims, perpetrators depicting
> themselves as the victims, is a sad default behaviour in our community.
> This needs to change. Seriously.
>
> On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 at 08:17, Peter Southwood <
> [hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > How can we BE safe in the movement if we cannot question the decisions of
> > T&S? (when they appear questionable and unsafe)
> > Cheers,
> > Peter
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> > Behalf Of Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l
> > Sent: Friday, June 21, 2019 7:57 AM
> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all
> >
> > First of all I don’t know the context of this conversation. I know that I
> > personnally find that the actions of  Trust& Safety  very valuable and
> > wise. I totally support and trust their judgement.
> >
> > I am tired of seing their work criticized, and do not appreciate official
> > chapter representants and employees publicly supporting alleged
> offenders,
> > showing no aknowledgement of the fact that this is very toxic for alleged
> > victims, and does not help to change attitude towards issues of
> > harrassment.
> >
> > How can we feel safe in the movement if the decisions of T&S are
> > questionned by official members of our movement?
> >
> > Nattes à chat
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Le 21 juin 2019 à 01:04, Chris Keating <[hidden email]> a
> > écrit :
> >
> > >>
> > >> It is extremely disappointing, and *extremely typical* of the
> Wikimedia
> > >> movement, to see an entire thread like this dedicated to supporting
> > someone
> > >> who Trust & Safety has found to have acted in such a way that they had
> > to
> > >> intervene. It is even more disappointing to see a person who was
> > affected
> > >> by his actions told "this is not your story" and "it may help you when
> > you
> > >> grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the
> > >> feelings of others."
> > >>
> > >> If you're wondering why women leave the Wikimedia movement, and why
> > >> Wikimedia has such a bad harassment problem in general, just reflect
> on
> > >> this thread.
> > >
> > >
> > > Thank you, Molly, for expressing what I was just trying to summon the
> > > energy to write.
> > >
> > > Chris
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>



--
Ilario Valdelli
Wikimedia CH
Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
Wikipedia: Ilario <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Ilario>
Skype: valdelli
Tel: +41764821371
http://www.wikimedia.ch
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

Paulo Santos Perneta
In reply to this post by Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l
Taking everything and their dog as "harassment", without due process to
verify it, and issuing punishments one can't appeal based on that, creates
a feeling of fear and insecurity in the events; and provides a tool easy to
abuse by clever persons who understood how to game the system, as a vehicle
for severe harassment itself.

This creates an unsafe and unfriendly space in the events,and should really
be looked at.

Best,
Paulo





A sexta, 21 de jun de 2019, 06:57, Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l <
[hidden email]> escreveu:

> First of all I don’t know the context of this conversation. I know that I
> personnally find that the actions of  Trust& Safety  very valuable and
> wise. I totally support and trust their judgement.
>
> I am tired of seing their work criticized, and do not appreciate official
> chapter representants and employees publicly supporting alleged offenders,
> showing no aknowledgement of the fact that this is very toxic for alleged
> victims, and does not help to change attitude towards issues of
> harrassment.
>
> How can we feel safe in the movement if the decisions of T&S are
> questionned by official members of our movement?
>
> Nattes à chat
>
>
>
>
>
> Le 21 juin 2019 à 01:04, Chris Keating <[hidden email]> a
> écrit :
>
> >>
> >> It is extremely disappointing, and *extremely typical* of the Wikimedia
> >> movement, to see an entire thread like this dedicated to supporting
> someone
> >> who Trust & Safety has found to have acted in such a way that they had
> to
> >> intervene. It is even more disappointing to see a person who was
> affected
> >> by his actions told "this is not your story" and "it may help you when
> you
> >> grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the
> >> feelings of others."
> >>
> >> If you're wondering why women leave the Wikimedia movement, and why
> >> Wikimedia has such a bad harassment problem in general, just reflect on
> >> this thread.
> >
> >
> > Thank you, Molly, for expressing what I was just trying to summon the
> > energy to write.
> >
> > Chris
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

Robert Fernandez
In reply to this post by Gerard Meijssen-3
You do realize that you can email Romaine privately?


On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 1:18 AM Gerard Meijssen
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Hoi,
> You do not get it. For me this is about saying goodbye. Saying goodbye to
> someone I/we truly value. Saying goodbye to someone who we owe gratitude.
> This was not allowed to be, we say goodbye and we are told that we are
> wrong because a situation where the POV expressed is that we cannot say
> goodbye, express our gratitude because they are / feel aggrieved.
>
> I have no opinion on why this situation exists, what transpired. What I
> object to is that there is no room given for our feeling of loss. That is
> an injustice in its own right.
> Thanks,
>        GerardM
>
> On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 at 00:26, Pierre-Selim <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Her POV ?
> >
> > Well I can confirm what Caroline said.
> >
> > What more do you want ? To verify all other reports ?
> >
> > It's sad that things have escalated this far, but may be it's time to
> > wonder why it escalated like that. There was multiple incidents reported.
> > Things that should have stayed private were told on this mailing list by
> > Romaine... well when do we stop this ?
> >
> > Please keep in mind when you cast your support here that people who have
> > reported Romaine might be reading this.
> >
> > Le jeu. 20 juin 2019 à 23:12, Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]>
> > a
> > écrit :
> >
> > > Caroline,
> > > For me this is not your story. Your insistence of making it so has quite
> > > the opposite effect. I have known Romaine, the tireless efforts for us
> > all
> > > he has given us over the years, I grieve for our collective loss. I do
> > not
> > > know you and you are intruding on what is a feeling shared by many. It
> > may
> > > help you when you grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the
> > > feelings of others. Maybe it is too difficult for you, I do not know as I
> > > do not know you at all.
> > >
> > > What I wonder is to what extend do you know Romaine, to what extend are
> > you
> > > stuck in your pov.
> > > Thanks,
> > >      GerardM
> > >
> > > On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 at 19:00, Caroline Becker <[hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > This is such a lost. Not only did you waisted an opportunity to learn
> > and
> > > > grow from your mistakes the first time, you reiterate here, showing no
> > > > willingness to grow and learn.
> > > >
> > > > But why would you take the difficult path, when by just claiming your
> > > right
> > > > to "weirdness" (which I guess only apply to you and none to the people
> > > you
> > > > hurt), you're rewarding with public support ?
> > > >
> > > > Caroline
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Le jeu. 20 juin 2019 à 18:55, Dennis During <[hidden email]> a
> > > écrit :
> > > >
> > > > > I am ashamed that the movement has a climate that allows this
> > > unfortunate
> > > > > outcome
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 7:15 AM Romaine Wiki <[hidden email]
> > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >  Dear community,
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > About a month ago I have decided that I will indefinitely no longer
> > > > > attend
> > > > > > any WMF funded events as result of bullying, attempts to silence
> > me,
> > > > > > intimidation and treats against me. This has resulted in that I
> > feel
> > > > > > extremely unsafe as the result of the behaviour of only a few
> > > > > individuals.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Dennis C. During
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
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> > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

Robert Fernandez
In reply to this post by Paulo Santos Perneta
At some point we have to decide who this movement and community is
for.  Is it for popular individuals to act out in any way they please
and be awarded maximum freedom and lack of accountability?  Or is it
so we can insure a friendly space for everyone, including those who
are not popular, who are not loud voices on community forums, who do
not want to be harassed or leered at or made uncomfortable?

Everything is a tradeoff, and based on what I've seen I'll take the
lack of "due process" from trained and responsible professionals over
the popularity contests of the mob any day.


On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 4:56 AM Paulo Santos Perneta
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Taking everything and their dog as "harassment", without due process to
> verify it, and issuing punishments one can't appeal based on that, creates
> a feeling of fear and insecurity in the events; and provides a tool easy to
> abuse by clever persons who understood how to game the system, as a vehicle
> for severe harassment itself.
>
> This creates an unsafe and unfriendly space in the events,and should really
> be looked at.
>
> Best,
> Paulo
>
>
>
>
>
> A sexta, 21 de jun de 2019, 06:57, Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l <
> [hidden email]> escreveu:
>
> > First of all I don’t know the context of this conversation. I know that I
> > personnally find that the actions of  Trust& Safety  very valuable and
> > wise. I totally support and trust their judgement.
> >
> > I am tired of seing their work criticized, and do not appreciate official
> > chapter representants and employees publicly supporting alleged offenders,
> > showing no aknowledgement of the fact that this is very toxic for alleged
> > victims, and does not help to change attitude towards issues of
> > harrassment.
> >
> > How can we feel safe in the movement if the decisions of T&S are
> > questionned by official members of our movement?
> >
> > Nattes à chat
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Le 21 juin 2019 à 01:04, Chris Keating <[hidden email]> a
> > écrit :
> >
> > >>
> > >> It is extremely disappointing, and *extremely typical* of the Wikimedia
> > >> movement, to see an entire thread like this dedicated to supporting
> > someone
> > >> who Trust & Safety has found to have acted in such a way that they had
> > to
> > >> intervene. It is even more disappointing to see a person who was
> > affected
> > >> by his actions told "this is not your story" and "it may help you when
> > you
> > >> grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the
> > >> feelings of others."
> > >>
> > >> If you're wondering why women leave the Wikimedia movement, and why
> > >> Wikimedia has such a bad harassment problem in general, just reflect on
> > >> this thread.
> > >
> > >
> > > Thank you, Molly, for expressing what I was just trying to summon the
> > > energy to write.
> > >
> > > Chris
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

Paulo Santos Perneta
Hi Robert,

I believe you will only keep that opinion until the day you would be
subject to a false accusation by the WMF, without even knowing it, and
having no way to defend yourself appeal.

Everything is easy to talk about and have opinions while it is only
happening to the others. Unfortunately it is not my case, and I know in
first person how flawed the system is.

Apart from the details of the case described by the OP, the almost total
lack of due process is extremely worrying, especially to those who already
experimented it failing in first hand.

Best,
Paulo



A sexta, 21 de jun de 2019, 14:43, Robert Fernandez <[hidden email]>
escreveu:

> At some point we have to decide who this movement and community is
> for.  Is it for popular individuals to act out in any way they please
> and be awarded maximum freedom and lack of accountability?  Or is it
> so we can insure a friendly space for everyone, including those who
> are not popular, who are not loud voices on community forums, who do
> not want to be harassed or leered at or made uncomfortable?
>
> Everything is a tradeoff, and based on what I've seen I'll take the
> lack of "due process" from trained and responsible professionals over
> the popularity contests of the mob any day.
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 4:56 AM Paulo Santos Perneta
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Taking everything and their dog as "harassment", without due process to
> > verify it, and issuing punishments one can't appeal based on that,
> creates
> > a feeling of fear and insecurity in the events; and provides a tool easy
> to
> > abuse by clever persons who understood how to game the system, as a
> vehicle
> > for severe harassment itself.
> >
> > This creates an unsafe and unfriendly space in the events,and should
> really
> > be looked at.
> >
> > Best,
> > Paulo
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > A sexta, 21 de jun de 2019, 06:57, Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l <
> > [hidden email]> escreveu:
> >
> > > First of all I don’t know the context of this conversation. I know
> that I
> > > personnally find that the actions of  Trust& Safety  very valuable and
> > > wise. I totally support and trust their judgement.
> > >
> > > I am tired of seing their work criticized, and do not appreciate
> official
> > > chapter representants and employees publicly supporting alleged
> offenders,
> > > showing no aknowledgement of the fact that this is very toxic for
> alleged
> > > victims, and does not help to change attitude towards issues of
> > > harrassment.
> > >
> > > How can we feel safe in the movement if the decisions of T&S are
> > > questionned by official members of our movement?
> > >
> > > Nattes à chat
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Le 21 juin 2019 à 01:04, Chris Keating <[hidden email]> a
> > > écrit :
> > >
> > > >>
> > > >> It is extremely disappointing, and *extremely typical* of the
> Wikimedia
> > > >> movement, to see an entire thread like this dedicated to supporting
> > > someone
> > > >> who Trust & Safety has found to have acted in such a way that they
> had
> > > to
> > > >> intervene. It is even more disappointing to see a person who was
> > > affected
> > > >> by his actions told "this is not your story" and "it may help you
> when
> > > you
> > > >> grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the
> > > >> feelings of others."
> > > >>
> > > >> If you're wondering why women leave the Wikimedia movement, and why
> > > >> Wikimedia has such a bad harassment problem in general, just
> reflect on
> > > >> this thread.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Thank you, Molly, for expressing what I was just trying to summon the
> > > > energy to write.
> > > >
> > > > Chris
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

Paulo Santos Perneta
False accusation with the respective punishment, that is. If it was just a
false accusation I would not care that much about it, though I obviously
dislike being falsely accused.

Paulo

A sexta, 21 de jun de 2019, 15:01, Paulo Santos Perneta <
[hidden email]> escreveu:

> Hi Robert,
>
> I believe you will only keep that opinion until the day you would be
> subject to a false accusation by the WMF, without even knowing it, and
> having no way to defend yourself appeal.
>
> Everything is easy to talk about and have opinions while it is only
> happening to the others. Unfortunately it is not my case, and I know in
> first person how flawed the system is.
>
> Apart from the details of the case described by the OP, the almost total
> lack of due process is extremely worrying, especially to those who already
> experimented it failing in first hand.
>
> Best,
> Paulo
>
>
>
> A sexta, 21 de jun de 2019, 14:43, Robert Fernandez <
> [hidden email]> escreveu:
>
>> At some point we have to decide who this movement and community is
>> for.  Is it for popular individuals to act out in any way they please
>> and be awarded maximum freedom and lack of accountability?  Or is it
>> so we can insure a friendly space for everyone, including those who
>> are not popular, who are not loud voices on community forums, who do
>> not want to be harassed or leered at or made uncomfortable?
>>
>> Everything is a tradeoff, and based on what I've seen I'll take the
>> lack of "due process" from trained and responsible professionals over
>> the popularity contests of the mob any day.
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 4:56 AM Paulo Santos Perneta
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >
>> > Taking everything and their dog as "harassment", without due process to
>> > verify it, and issuing punishments one can't appeal based on that,
>> creates
>> > a feeling of fear and insecurity in the events; and provides a tool
>> easy to
>> > abuse by clever persons who understood how to game the system, as a
>> vehicle
>> > for severe harassment itself.
>> >
>> > This creates an unsafe and unfriendly space in the events,and should
>> really
>> > be looked at.
>> >
>> > Best,
>> > Paulo
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > A sexta, 21 de jun de 2019, 06:57, Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l <
>> > [hidden email]> escreveu:
>> >
>> > > First of all I don’t know the context of this conversation. I know
>> that I
>> > > personnally find that the actions of  Trust& Safety  very valuable and
>> > > wise. I totally support and trust their judgement.
>> > >
>> > > I am tired of seing their work criticized, and do not appreciate
>> official
>> > > chapter representants and employees publicly supporting alleged
>> offenders,
>> > > showing no aknowledgement of the fact that this is very toxic for
>> alleged
>> > > victims, and does not help to change attitude towards issues of
>> > > harrassment.
>> > >
>> > > How can we feel safe in the movement if the decisions of T&S are
>> > > questionned by official members of our movement?
>> > >
>> > > Nattes à chat
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Le 21 juin 2019 à 01:04, Chris Keating <[hidden email]> a
>> > > écrit :
>> > >
>> > > >>
>> > > >> It is extremely disappointing, and *extremely typical* of the
>> Wikimedia
>> > > >> movement, to see an entire thread like this dedicated to supporting
>> > > someone
>> > > >> who Trust & Safety has found to have acted in such a way that they
>> had
>> > > to
>> > > >> intervene. It is even more disappointing to see a person who was
>> > > affected
>> > > >> by his actions told "this is not your story" and "it may help you
>> when
>> > > you
>> > > >> grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the
>> > > >> feelings of others."
>> > > >>
>> > > >> If you're wondering why women leave the Wikimedia movement, and why
>> > > >> Wikimedia has such a bad harassment problem in general, just
>> reflect on
>> > > >> this thread.
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > Thank you, Molly, for expressing what I was just trying to summon
>> the
>> > > > energy to write.
>> > > >
>> > > > Chris
>> > > > _______________________________________________
>> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
>> > > > Unsubscribe:
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
>> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>> ,
>> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> > New messages to: [hidden email]
>> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> New messages to: [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

Gerard Meijssen-3
In reply to this post by Robert Fernandez
Hoi,
I am afraid that this is a misrepresentation. Romaine is a "self confessed"
person with Asperger. Within our community we have an overrepresentation
with people with a mental health issue. This is to be expected. This is
typically not appreciated hardly ever understood. I have noticed before
that people with a mental health issue got into problems including the
imposition of a life time ban.

I do not know about trained and responsible but when there is no experience
with mental health, given the composition of our community when there is no
understanding for mental health issues, I do not think trained and
responsible is justified. The notion that we are dealing with a "mob" is
not helpful, it alienates the people you target with your speech. It
prevents us from getting to an understanding.\
Thanks,
      GerardM

On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 at 15:43, Robert Fernandez <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> At some point we have to decide who this movement and community is
> for.  Is it for popular individuals to act out in any way they please
> and be awarded maximum freedom and lack of accountability?  Or is it
> so we can insure a friendly space for everyone, including those who
> are not popular, who are not loud voices on community forums, who do
> not want to be harassed or leered at or made uncomfortable?
>
> Everything is a tradeoff, and based on what I've seen I'll take the
> lack of "due process" from trained and responsible professionals over
> the popularity contests of the mob any day.
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 4:56 AM Paulo Santos Perneta
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Taking everything and their dog as "harassment", without due process to
> > verify it, and issuing punishments one can't appeal based on that,
> creates
> > a feeling of fear and insecurity in the events; and provides a tool easy
> to
> > abuse by clever persons who understood how to game the system, as a
> vehicle
> > for severe harassment itself.
> >
> > This creates an unsafe and unfriendly space in the events,and should
> really
> > be looked at.
> >
> > Best,
> > Paulo
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > A sexta, 21 de jun de 2019, 06:57, Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l <
> > [hidden email]> escreveu:
> >
> > > First of all I don’t know the context of this conversation. I know
> that I
> > > personnally find that the actions of  Trust& Safety  very valuable and
> > > wise. I totally support and trust their judgement.
> > >
> > > I am tired of seing their work criticized, and do not appreciate
> official
> > > chapter representants and employees publicly supporting alleged
> offenders,
> > > showing no aknowledgement of the fact that this is very toxic for
> alleged
> > > victims, and does not help to change attitude towards issues of
> > > harrassment.
> > >
> > > How can we feel safe in the movement if the decisions of T&S are
> > > questionned by official members of our movement?
> > >
> > > Nattes à chat
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Le 21 juin 2019 à 01:04, Chris Keating <[hidden email]> a
> > > écrit :
> > >
> > > >>
> > > >> It is extremely disappointing, and *extremely typical* of the
> Wikimedia
> > > >> movement, to see an entire thread like this dedicated to supporting
> > > someone
> > > >> who Trust & Safety has found to have acted in such a way that they
> had
> > > to
> > > >> intervene. It is even more disappointing to see a person who was
> > > affected
> > > >> by his actions told "this is not your story" and "it may help you
> when
> > > you
> > > >> grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the
> > > >> feelings of others."
> > > >>
> > > >> If you're wondering why women leave the Wikimedia movement, and why
> > > >> Wikimedia has such a bad harassment problem in general, just
> reflect on
> > > >> this thread.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Thank you, Molly, for expressing what I was just trying to summon the
> > > > energy to write.
> > > >
> > > > Chris
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: [hidden email]
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

camelia boban
In reply to this post by Paulo Santos Perneta
Oh my Gosh Paulo, can you stop this dramma about yourself and your problem
with everything is connected with WMF?

To others, please have respect for the both parts engaged in this sad story
and do what Geert asked, stop discussing about this specific conflict
publicly.
If you want to talk more about harassment (in a generic way), then open
another thread.

Thank you,
Camelia










Il giorno ven 21 giu 2019 alle ore 16:05 Paulo Santos Perneta <
[hidden email]> ha scritto:

> False accusation with the respective punishment, that is. If it was just a
> false accusation I would not care that much about it, though I obviously
> dislike being falsely accused.
>
> Paulo
>
> A sexta, 21 de jun de 2019, 15:01, Paulo Santos Perneta <
> [hidden email]> escreveu:
>
> > Hi Robert,
> >
> > I believe you will only keep that opinion until the day you would be
> > subject to a false accusation by the WMF, without even knowing it, and
> > having no way to defend yourself appeal.
> >
> > Everything is easy to talk about and have opinions while it is only
> > happening to the others. Unfortunately it is not my case, and I know in
> > first person how flawed the system is.
> >
> > Apart from the details of the case described by the OP, the almost total
> > lack of due process is extremely worrying, especially to those who
> already
> > experimented it failing in first hand.
> >
> > Best,
> > Paulo
> >
> >
> >
> > A sexta, 21 de jun de 2019, 14:43, Robert Fernandez <
> > [hidden email]> escreveu:
> >
> >> At some point we have to decide who this movement and community is
> >> for.  Is it for popular individuals to act out in any way they please
> >> and be awarded maximum freedom and lack of accountability?  Or is it
> >> so we can insure a friendly space for everyone, including those who
> >> are not popular, who are not loud voices on community forums, who do
> >> not want to be harassed or leered at or made uncomfortable?
> >>
> >> Everything is a tradeoff, and based on what I've seen I'll take the
> >> lack of "due process" from trained and responsible professionals over
> >> the popularity contests of the mob any day.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 4:56 AM Paulo Santos Perneta
> >> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Taking everything and their dog as "harassment", without due process
> to
> >> > verify it, and issuing punishments one can't appeal based on that,
> >> creates
> >> > a feeling of fear and insecurity in the events; and provides a tool
> >> easy to
> >> > abuse by clever persons who understood how to game the system, as a
> >> vehicle
> >> > for severe harassment itself.
> >> >
> >> > This creates an unsafe and unfriendly space in the events,and should
> >> really
> >> > be looked at.
> >> >
> >> > Best,
> >> > Paulo
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > A sexta, 21 de jun de 2019, 06:57, Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l <
> >> > [hidden email]> escreveu:
> >> >
> >> > > First of all I don’t know the context of this conversation. I know
> >> that I
> >> > > personnally find that the actions of  Trust& Safety  very valuable
> and
> >> > > wise. I totally support and trust their judgement.
> >> > >
> >> > > I am tired of seing their work criticized, and do not appreciate
> >> official
> >> > > chapter representants and employees publicly supporting alleged
> >> offenders,
> >> > > showing no aknowledgement of the fact that this is very toxic for
> >> alleged
> >> > > victims, and does not help to change attitude towards issues of
> >> > > harrassment.
> >> > >
> >> > > How can we feel safe in the movement if the decisions of T&S are
> >> > > questionned by official members of our movement?
> >> > >
> >> > > Nattes à chat
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > Le 21 juin 2019 à 01:04, Chris Keating <[hidden email]>
> a
> >> > > écrit :
> >> > >
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> It is extremely disappointing, and *extremely typical* of the
> >> Wikimedia
> >> > > >> movement, to see an entire thread like this dedicated to
> supporting
> >> > > someone
> >> > > >> who Trust & Safety has found to have acted in such a way that
> they
> >> had
> >> > > to
> >> > > >> intervene. It is even more disappointing to see a person who was
> >> > > affected
> >> > > >> by his actions told "this is not your story" and "it may help you
> >> when
> >> > > you
> >> > > >> grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the
> >> > > >> feelings of others."
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> If you're wondering why women leave the Wikimedia movement, and
> why
> >> > > >> Wikimedia has such a bad harassment problem in general, just
> >> reflect on
> >> > > >> this thread.
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Thank you, Molly, for expressing what I was just trying to summon
> >> the
> >> > > > energy to write.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Chris
> >> > > > _______________________________________________
> >> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> >> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >> > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> >> > > > Unsubscribe:
> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> >> > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > _______________________________________________
> >> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> >> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
> >> > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> >> ,
> >> > > <mailto:[hidden email]
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >> > New messages to: [hidden email]
> >> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> ,
> >> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >> New messages to: [hidden email]
> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> >> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> >
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

Paulo Santos Perneta
Camelia,

My comment was not about harassment, was about systemic and rampant lack of
due process on the part of the WMF.
And it's not drama, it's reality.

Paulo

camelia boban <[hidden email]> escreveu no dia sexta, 21/06/2019
à(s) 15:24:

> Oh my Gosh Paulo, can you stop this dramma about yourself and your problem
> with everything is connected with WMF?
>
> To others, please have respect for the both parts engaged in this sad
> story and do what Geert asked, stop discussing about this specific
> conflict publicly.
> If you want to talk more about harassment (in a generic way), then open
> another thread.
>
> Thank you,
> Camelia
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Il giorno ven 21 giu 2019 alle ore 16:05 Paulo Santos Perneta <
> [hidden email]> ha scritto:
>
>> False accusation with the respective punishment, that is. If it was just a
>> false accusation I would not care that much about it, though I obviously
>> dislike being falsely accused.
>>
>> Paulo
>>
>> A sexta, 21 de jun de 2019, 15:01, Paulo Santos Perneta <
>> [hidden email]> escreveu:
>>
>> > Hi Robert,
>> >
>> > I believe you will only keep that opinion until the day you would be
>> > subject to a false accusation by the WMF, without even knowing it, and
>> > having no way to defend yourself appeal.
>> >
>> > Everything is easy to talk about and have opinions while it is only
>> > happening to the others. Unfortunately it is not my case, and I know in
>> > first person how flawed the system is.
>> >
>> > Apart from the details of the case described by the OP, the almost total
>> > lack of due process is extremely worrying, especially to those who
>> already
>> > experimented it failing in first hand.
>> >
>> > Best,
>> > Paulo
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > A sexta, 21 de jun de 2019, 14:43, Robert Fernandez <
>> > [hidden email]> escreveu:
>> >
>> >> At some point we have to decide who this movement and community is
>> >> for.  Is it for popular individuals to act out in any way they please
>> >> and be awarded maximum freedom and lack of accountability?  Or is it
>> >> so we can insure a friendly space for everyone, including those who
>> >> are not popular, who are not loud voices on community forums, who do
>> >> not want to be harassed or leered at or made uncomfortable?
>> >>
>> >> Everything is a tradeoff, and based on what I've seen I'll take the
>> >> lack of "due process" from trained and responsible professionals over
>> >> the popularity contests of the mob any day.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 4:56 AM Paulo Santos Perneta
>> >> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > Taking everything and their dog as "harassment", without due process
>> to
>> >> > verify it, and issuing punishments one can't appeal based on that,
>> >> creates
>> >> > a feeling of fear and insecurity in the events; and provides a tool
>> >> easy to
>> >> > abuse by clever persons who understood how to game the system, as a
>> >> vehicle
>> >> > for severe harassment itself.
>> >> >
>> >> > This creates an unsafe and unfriendly space in the events,and should
>> >> really
>> >> > be looked at.
>> >> >
>> >> > Best,
>> >> > Paulo
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > A sexta, 21 de jun de 2019, 06:57, Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l <
>> >> > [hidden email]> escreveu:
>> >> >
>> >> > > First of all I don’t know the context of this conversation. I know
>> >> that I
>> >> > > personnally find that the actions of  Trust& Safety  very valuable
>> and
>> >> > > wise. I totally support and trust their judgement.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > I am tired of seing their work criticized, and do not appreciate
>> >> official
>> >> > > chapter representants and employees publicly supporting alleged
>> >> offenders,
>> >> > > showing no aknowledgement of the fact that this is very toxic for
>> >> alleged
>> >> > > victims, and does not help to change attitude towards issues of
>> >> > > harrassment.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > How can we feel safe in the movement if the decisions of T&S are
>> >> > > questionned by official members of our movement?
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Nattes à chat
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Le 21 juin 2019 à 01:04, Chris Keating <[hidden email]>
>> a
>> >> > > écrit :
>> >> > >
>> >> > > >>
>> >> > > >> It is extremely disappointing, and *extremely typical* of the
>> >> Wikimedia
>> >> > > >> movement, to see an entire thread like this dedicated to
>> supporting
>> >> > > someone
>> >> > > >> who Trust & Safety has found to have acted in such a way that
>> they
>> >> had
>> >> > > to
>> >> > > >> intervene. It is even more disappointing to see a person who was
>> >> > > affected
>> >> > > >> by his actions told "this is not your story" and "it may help
>> you
>> >> when
>> >> > > you
>> >> > > >> grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the
>> >> > > >> feelings of others."
>> >> > > >>
>> >> > > >> If you're wondering why women leave the Wikimedia movement, and
>> why
>> >> > > >> Wikimedia has such a bad harassment problem in general, just
>> >> reflect on
>> >> > > >> this thread.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > Thank you, Molly, for expressing what I was just trying to summon
>> >> the
>> >> > > > energy to write.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > Chris
>> >> > > > _______________________________________________
>> >> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> >> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>> >> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> >> > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
>> >> > > > Unsubscribe:
>> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> >> > > <mailto:[hidden email]
>> ?subject=unsubscribe>
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > > _______________________________________________
>> >> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> >> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>> >> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> >> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
>> >> > > Unsubscribe:
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>> >> ,
>> >> > > <mailto:[hidden email]
>> ?subject=unsubscribe>
>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> >> > New messages to: [hidden email]
>> >> > Unsubscribe:
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> >> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> >> New messages to: [hidden email]
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>> >> <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>> >
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
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>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
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>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

Robert Fernandez
In reply to this post by Paulo Santos Perneta
If you want to see the entire world through the lens of Kafka, be my
guest, but we can't make policy in this movement based on that.

On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 10:01 AM Paulo Santos Perneta
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Hi Robert,
>
> I believe you will only keep that opinion until the day you would be subject to a false accusation by the WMF, without even knowing it, and having no way to defend yourself appeal.
>
> Everything is easy to talk about and have opinions while it is only happening to the others. Unfortunately it is not my case, and I know in first person how flawed the system is.
>
> Apart from the details of the case described by the OP, the almost total lack of due process is extremely worrying, especially to those who already experimented it failing in first hand.
>
> Best,
> Paulo
>
>
>
> A sexta, 21 de jun de 2019, 14:43, Robert Fernandez <[hidden email]> escreveu:
>>
>> At some point we have to decide who this movement and community is
>> for.  Is it for popular individuals to act out in any way they please
>> and be awarded maximum freedom and lack of accountability?  Or is it
>> so we can insure a friendly space for everyone, including those who
>> are not popular, who are not loud voices on community forums, who do
>> not want to be harassed or leered at or made uncomfortable?
>>
>> Everything is a tradeoff, and based on what I've seen I'll take the
>> lack of "due process" from trained and responsible professionals over
>> the popularity contests of the mob any day.
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 4:56 AM Paulo Santos Perneta
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >
>> > Taking everything and their dog as "harassment", without due process to
>> > verify it, and issuing punishments one can't appeal based on that, creates
>> > a feeling of fear and insecurity in the events; and provides a tool easy to
>> > abuse by clever persons who understood how to game the system, as a vehicle
>> > for severe harassment itself.
>> >
>> > This creates an unsafe and unfriendly space in the events,and should really
>> > be looked at.
>> >
>> > Best,
>> > Paulo
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > A sexta, 21 de jun de 2019, 06:57, Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l <
>> > [hidden email]> escreveu:
>> >
>> > > First of all I don’t know the context of this conversation. I know that I
>> > > personnally find that the actions of  Trust& Safety  very valuable and
>> > > wise. I totally support and trust their judgement.
>> > >
>> > > I am tired of seing their work criticized, and do not appreciate official
>> > > chapter representants and employees publicly supporting alleged offenders,
>> > > showing no aknowledgement of the fact that this is very toxic for alleged
>> > > victims, and does not help to change attitude towards issues of
>> > > harrassment.
>> > >
>> > > How can we feel safe in the movement if the decisions of T&S are
>> > > questionned by official members of our movement?
>> > >
>> > > Nattes à chat
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Le 21 juin 2019 à 01:04, Chris Keating <[hidden email]> a
>> > > écrit :
>> > >
>> > > >>
>> > > >> It is extremely disappointing, and *extremely typical* of the Wikimedia
>> > > >> movement, to see an entire thread like this dedicated to supporting
>> > > someone
>> > > >> who Trust & Safety has found to have acted in such a way that they had
>> > > to
>> > > >> intervene. It is even more disappointing to see a person who was
>> > > affected
>> > > >> by his actions told "this is not your story" and "it may help you when
>> > > you
>> > > >> grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the
>> > > >> feelings of others."
>> > > >>
>> > > >> If you're wondering why women leave the Wikimedia movement, and why
>> > > >> Wikimedia has such a bad harassment problem in general, just reflect on
>> > > >> this thread.
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > Thank you, Molly, for expressing what I was just trying to summon the
>> > > > energy to write.
>> > > >
>> > > > Chris
>> > > > _______________________________________________
>> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> > > > New messages to: [hidden email]
>> > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> > > New messages to: [hidden email]
>> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> > > <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> > New messages to: [hidden email]
>> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> New messages to: [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

Dennis During
In reply to this post by Gerard Meijssen-3
On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 10:24 AM Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hoi,
> I am afraid that this is a misrepresentation. Romaine is a "self confessed"
> person with Asperger. Within our community we have an overrepresentation
> with people with a mental health issue. This is to be expected. This is
> typically not appreciated hardly ever understood. I have noticed before
> that people with a mental health issue got into problems including the
> imposition of a life time ban.
>
> I do not know about trained and responsible but when there is no experience
> with mental health, given the composition of our community when there is no
> understanding for mental health issues, I do not think trained and
> responsible is justified. The notion that we are dealing with a "mob" is
> not helpful, it alienates the people you target with your speech. It
> prevents us from getting to an understanding.\
> Thanks,
>       GerardM
>

I wish I had articulated so well the source of my shame at being part of a
movement that has yielded this result for this case.  It seems like
self-righteous, crusading intolerance at work.


--
Dennis C. During
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