[Wikimedia-l] Strange, surprising, bold and unnecessary - reply to the WMF board statement

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[Wikimedia-l] Strange, surprising, bold and unnecessary - reply to the WMF board statement

Ziko van Dijk-2
Hello Kate,

Originally I wrote an inline comment about nearly every phrase of this
WMF board statement concerning the WCA. But then, the statement was
published before I could send the comment to you. Here a summary of my
original text as reply.

In general, the WMF board statement raises more questions than it
answers; it is uncomprehensible to me why such a bold and judgemental
statement was found necessary, at this moment, and for what reason.

During the entire year 2012, we heard from the WMF (board and staff)
many positive signals about the establishment of a Wikimedia Chapters
Association. So I find it very strange to read that in the 'early
stages' the WMF board was optimistic but now suddenly fails to
'envision' a positive development.

When I asked WMF vice director Erik Moeller on March 12th, 2012 about
the name "Wikimedia Chapters Association", he was perfectly okay with
it. He even copied for me this sentence from a chapters agreement:
"The Chapter is obliged to utilize the Wikimedia logo and name in all
their related activities and is hereby authorized to do so by the
Foundation."

All in a sudden, in late December 2012, a message from the WMF Legal
Counsel Geoff Brigham admonished that the WCA has to follow the usual
steps for recognition as a Wikimedia affiliate. - How came that during
roughly nine months the WMF did not think about this? We were given
the impression that this was rather a formality.

WCA Council Members did have many, many conversations with the WMF
(board and staff), and chapter people. How can anyone say that there
has not been enough 'consulting'?

Concerning movement resources - the WCA hasn't spend much money so
far, and intends just to have one employee in the nearby future.
Considering that the WMF has more than 140 employees, the WMF board
statement's remark about movement resources for the WCA looks very
disproportional. Our plan, encouraged by the FDC, that in future the
WCA would request WMF grants or FDC funds, and at that point the WCA
request would have been considered the same way as any other request.

It is true that the developments in the WCA are some months slower
than everybody expected in July 2012 in Washington. But in comparison
to the early years of the WMF itself, or of many chapters, or of many
other organizations, the developments are not particularly slow. Just
recently we sent out the Secretary General job offer (which can not
have been a surprise to the WMF) and have the final discussions about
the incorporation.

Please keep in mind that democratic processes take longer than
deliberating within a small group. It was the will of more than 20
chapters representing several thousand Wikimedians to establish a
Wikimedia Chapters Association, which of course still exists, even if
the WMF withdraws the name "Wikimedia". Especially in the recent
development, with a number of new movement entities, this is a
strange, surprising and more than premature decision.

It would be in the interest of the whole movement to come to a
trustful and cooperative relationship between the WMF and the
chapters. The last months we have seen so many positive signals, such
as the FDC Round 1. The WMF board statement concerning the WCA
insinuates that it has to protect the movement and the trademarks from
harm but leaves it unclear exactly how and why the WCA is harmful. Why
this attitude of distrust regarding the WCA and the chapters, with no
clear justification?

I, personally, have so often defended the WMF, I have assumed good
faith where many others were suspicious. The WMF board statement makes
now undue assumptions about an organization that is not even one year
old. After such a statement, I honestly ask myself what should be my
assumptions about the WMF board and its true intentions.

Yours sincerely,

Ziko van Dijk

Deputy Chairman of the WCA Council
Wikipedia editor since 2003


-----------------------------------------------------------
Vereniging Wikimedia Nederland
dr. Ziko van Dijk, voorzitter
http://wmnederland.nl/

Wikimedia Nederland
Postbus 167
3500 AD Utrecht
-----------------------------------------------------------

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Strange, surprising, bold and unnecessary - reply to the WMF board statement

Itzik Edri
I can write a long mail to response the board statement, but past shown me
– it will be waste of time. Mean less time for my work, my chapter, and my
personal life.  Cause when the WMF and the Board deciding on something,
this is last and final decision. They discussion is just for the record. So
what It worth? But I can't avoid shares my disappointment from the board
(sadly again) and ours elected community and chapters trustee…


Yes, we are not perfect. Along all the process I was personally
disappointment from the him and have a lot of criticism about ours works.
But from that to the last board statement – there is (very) long way.


Saying that, I know this is not easy to build something, when you work with
so many people  that all of them volunteers, only small part of them coming
from chapters with staff support (and this staff is also very limit), when
all of them have work place, chapters and board work, and now also
associations to take care. I was the one who push to hire consultation
company (like the foundation did many times with huge amount of money
invest on that) to lead the process. My proposal was reject, and the
council decided to save the money and lead it by them. Harder and slower
process, but cheaper. So it seem like the WCA is not running to spend
money.


Along the way, the WCA was a magic word. Sue even uses it to explain why
the WMF is narrowing focus, giving others role to support the chapters. We
need to remember that we saw increase of chapters and zero formal support
from the WMF or the movement to handle them. Small chapters who don't even
know with who to speak when they need something, who their point of contact
in this "huge" organization called the WMF.


It seem like the foundation (and the board of course) moving very fast to
professionalism, and the chapters are also looking to track it (and I hope
I'm not a naive that the foundation support it) but they can't keep pace
with the foundation. Thing that affect the chapters.


Let's face it - how much support to really establish the WCA the foundation
gave until now?


Even the statement came from nowhere. Without asking the WCA to response,
or to ask the chair or the council to give some brief to the board before
or during the meeting, or to collect response from us, before reaching to
such kind of statement. I even understood that some board member planned to
participate in the WCA meeting that been planned to be hold on the 17th in
London, why? For what?


What disappointment is the lack of constructive response. How the board
think he could help and change? How he may ask the foundation the chapters
to try find a way to change (and change is indeed need). Or if they going
to lead a process to find other solution to support the chapters (as they
say themselves is needed, according to approving Sue narrow focus
recommendations). Real leadership is to help, not just to reject.




Itzik

Wikimedia Israel

On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 6:18 PM, Ziko van Dijk <[hidden email]>wrote:

> Hello Kate,
>
> Originally I wrote an inline comment about nearly every phrase of this
> WMF board statement concerning the WCA. But then, the statement was
> published before I could send the comment to you. Here a summary of my
> original text as reply.
>
> In general, the WMF board statement raises more questions than it
> answers; it is uncomprehensible to me why such a bold and judgemental
> statement was found necessary, at this moment, and for what reason.
>
> During the entire year 2012, we heard from the WMF (board and staff)
> many positive signals about the establishment of a Wikimedia Chapters
> Association. So I find it very strange to read that in the 'early
> stages' the WMF board was optimistic but now suddenly fails to
> 'envision' a positive development.
>
> When I asked WMF vice director Erik Moeller on March 12th, 2012 about
> the name "Wikimedia Chapters Association", he was perfectly okay with
> it. He even copied for me this sentence from a chapters agreement:
> "The Chapter is obliged to utilize the Wikimedia logo and name in all
> their related activities and is hereby authorized to do so by the
> Foundation."
>
> All in a sudden, in late December 2012, a message from the WMF Legal
> Counsel Geoff Brigham admonished that the WCA has to follow the usual
> steps for recognition as a Wikimedia affiliate. - How came that during
> roughly nine months the WMF did not think about this? We were given
> the impression that this was rather a formality.
>
> WCA Council Members did have many, many conversations with the WMF
> (board and staff), and chapter people. How can anyone say that there
> has not been enough 'consulting'?
>
> Concerning movement resources - the WCA hasn't spend much money so
> far, and intends just to have one employee in the nearby future.
> Considering that the WMF has more than 140 employees, the WMF board
> statement's remark about movement resources for the WCA looks very
> disproportional. Our plan, encouraged by the FDC, that in future the
> WCA would request WMF grants or FDC funds, and at that point the WCA
> request would have been considered the same way as any other request.
>
> It is true that the developments in the WCA are some months slower
> than everybody expected in July 2012 in Washington. But in comparison
> to the early years of the WMF itself, or of many chapters, or of many
> other organizations, the developments are not particularly slow. Just
> recently we sent out the Secretary General job offer (which can not
> have been a surprise to the WMF) and have the final discussions about
> the incorporation.
>
> Please keep in mind that democratic processes take longer than
> deliberating within a small group. It was the will of more than 20
> chapters representing several thousand Wikimedians to establish a
> Wikimedia Chapters Association, which of course still exists, even if
> the WMF withdraws the name "Wikimedia". Especially in the recent
> development, with a number of new movement entities, this is a
> strange, surprising and more than premature decision.
>
> It would be in the interest of the whole movement to come to a
> trustful and cooperative relationship between the WMF and the
> chapters. The last months we have seen so many positive signals, such
> as the FDC Round 1. The WMF board statement concerning the WCA
> insinuates that it has to protect the movement and the trademarks from
> harm but leaves it unclear exactly how and why the WCA is harmful. Why
> this attitude of distrust regarding the WCA and the chapters, with no
> clear justification?
>
> I, personally, have so often defended the WMF, I have assumed good
> faith where many others were suspicious. The WMF board statement makes
> now undue assumptions about an organization that is not even one year
> old. After such a statement, I honestly ask myself what should be my
> assumptions about the WMF board and its true intentions.
>
> Yours sincerely,
>
> Ziko van Dijk
>
> Deputy Chairman of the WCA Council
> Wikipedia editor since 2003
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> Vereniging Wikimedia Nederland
> dr. Ziko van Dijk, voorzitter
> http://wmnederland.nl/
>
> Wikimedia Nederland
> Postbus 167
> 3500 AD Utrecht
> -----------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Strange, surprising, bold and unnecessary - reply to the WMF board statement

Milos Rancic-2
On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 10:22 PM, Itzik Edri <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I can write a long mail to response the board statement, but past shown me
> – it will be waste of time. Mean less time for my work, my chapter, and my
> personal life.  Cause when the WMF and the Board deciding on something,
> this is last and final decision. They discussion is just for the record. So
> what It worth? But I can't avoid shares my disappointment from the board
> (sadly again) and ours elected community and chapters trustee…

I have to disagree with you. From my experience, it is possible to
change Board's decision. If you are a patient, hardworking and
flamboyant pain in the ass.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Strange, surprising, bold and unnecessary - reply to the WMF board statement

mathieu lovato stumpf guntz
In reply to this post by Ziko van Dijk-2
Hello Ziko van Dijk,

Could you provide some links to documents which would enable a mere
mortal like me to have some context information? As it is, I don't
understand what's talked here.

Kind regards,
mathieu
--
Association Culture-Libre
http://www.culture-libre.org/

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Strange, surprising, bold and unnecessary - reply to the WMF board statement

Federico Leva (Nemo)
Mathieu Stumpf, 06/02/2013 10:03:
> Hello Ziko van Dijk,
>
> Could you provide some links to documents which would enable a mere
> mortal like me to have some context information? As it is, I don't
> understand what's talked here.

He refers to the previous thread in this list alias
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Chapters_Association>
It's hundreds KB, sorry.

Nemo

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Strange, surprising, bold and unnecessary - reply to the WMF board statement

mathieu lovato stumpf guntz
In reply to this post by Itzik Edri
Hello Itzik Edri,

Before reading me, please keep in mind I'm not familiar with all the
WMF bureaucracy, I'm following sparsely this list for one month or two,
so take care to interpret my sentences with the trunked view which is
available to me.

Le 2013-02-05 22:22, Itzik Edri a écrit :
> Let's face it - how much support to really establish the WCA the
> foundation
> gave until now?

How much support do we need? That's the question which really bother
me. Even with no support from WMF, organizing local chapters is a good
way to spread and make sustainable the willingness to share knowledge
and build great things together.

> What disappointment is the lack of constructive response. How the
> board
> think he could help and change? How he may ask the foundation the
> chapters
> to try find a way to change (and change is indeed need). Or if they
> going
> to lead a process to find other solution to support the chapters (as
> they
> say themselves is needed, according to approving Sue narrow focus
> recommendations). Real leadership is to help, not just to reject.

Personally, I'm not seeking for some leader. I don't contribute
wikimedia projects because I trust some leader, but because I think
that's a way to improve the world for all of us. So, I don't think you
need a leader, but if you need some help for a project which goes in the
same way as wikimedia ones do, surely I would be proud to help you if I
can. May I help you ?

--
Association Culture-Libre
http://www.culture-libre.org/

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Strange, surprising, bold and unnecessary - reply to the WMF board statement

Tom Morris-5
In reply to this post by Ziko van Dijk-2
I think the failure of the WCA process thus far has shown an enormous
lack of connection between chapter bureaucracy and what editors
actually care about.

Wikimedians have a rightful distaste for off-wiki bureaucracy. The
distinct lack of formal bureaucracy and organisation (we, of course,
create our own bureaucracy - see http://enwp.org/WP:WTF ) is one of
the chief things about Wikimedia projects that a lot of us like. I've
sat on far too many committees in my life. I have kept a small eye on
the WCA discussions and have yet to see compelling reasons to think
that it would do anything to actually directly help the projects. I'm
sure if I pulled 10 random admins from English Wikipedia and asked
them what the WCA is, they wouldn't be able to tell me, or they'd give
me a cynical answer like "it's an empire-building project for
political players in chapters".

Whether that's right or wrong, the WCA hasn't made a case to the
people who actually matter: the people who hit 'edit' every day on the
projects.

The same will be true for other thematic organizations and so on.
These organisations will exist in political limbo - supported by
chapter bureaucrats and the Foundation - until their importance and
worth is actually sold to editors.

Sell us, the editors, on why these things are necessary, and the
process of getting approval from the WMF Board will be easy because
the political winds will shift in your favour. What exactly are
Chapters trying to do now that they are failing at that necessitates
the creation of the WCA?

--
Tom Morris
<http://tommorris.org/>

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Strange, surprising, bold and unnecessary - reply to the WMF board statement

Fæ
On 6 February 2013 13:52, Tom Morris <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Sell us, the editors, on why these things are necessary, and the
> process of getting approval from the WMF Board will be easy because
> the political winds will shift in your favour. What exactly are
> Chapters trying to do now that they are failing at that necessitates
> the creation of the WCA?

My pick list of things we know that some chapters are failing at, and
that having an Association will help with - off the top of my head:

* Shared processes and requirements for good governance
* Shared (Chapter) best practices (such as financial reporting,
activity reporting, records and reporting)
* Peer review
* Benchmark independent review and assessment
* Managing effective boards
* Effective and efficient programme management
* Holding senior management to account
* Credible public reporting on funding outcomes
* Transparency

Of course, I am personally happy to help chapters with this sort of
thing, but I'm only one man with a few scars from painful experience;
so having an Association helps folks like me to help others.

PS Tom, knowing you as long as I have, I would not dream of trying to
sell you anything. ;-)

Cheers,
Fae
--
Chapters Association Council Chair http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WCA
Guide to email tags: http://j.mp/mfae

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Strange, surprising, bold and unnecessary - reply to the WMF board statement

Thomas Dalton
In reply to this post by Tom Morris-5
On 6 February 2013 13:52, Tom Morris <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I think the failure of the WCA process thus far has shown an enormous
> lack of connection between chapter bureaucracy and what editors
> actually care about.

Pretty much everything the WMF and chapters do is stuff editors don't
care about. If editors cared about it, they would do it themselves and
they would be WMF and chapter people not editors (some people manage
to be both, although it is too great a challenge for most of us!).
Different people in the movement are involved in different things, all
of which are required for the projects to be as big a success as they
can be.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Strange, surprising, bold and unnecessary - reply to the WMF board statement

Tomasz Ganicz
In reply to this post by Tom Morris-5
2013/2/6 Tom Morris <[hidden email]>:

> I think the failure of the WCA process thus far has shown an enormous
> lack of connection between chapter bureaucracy and what editors
> actually care about.
>
> Wikimedians have a rightful distaste for off-wiki bureaucracy. The
> distinct lack of formal bureaucracy and organisation (we, of course,
> create our own bureaucracy - see http://enwp.org/WP:WTF ) is one of
> the chief things about Wikimedia projects that a lot of us like. I've
> sat on far too many committees in my life. I have kept a small eye on
> the WCA discussions and have yet to see compelling reasons to think
> that it would do anything to actually directly help the projects. I'm
> sure if I pulled 10 random admins from English Wikipedia and asked
> them what the WCA is, they wouldn't be able to tell me, or they'd give
> me a cynical answer like "it's an empire-building project for
> political players in chapters".
>

Well, I think your division of wikimedians bureaucrats and editors is
a bit weird, at least regarding WCA members and very en-Wikipedia
centered. Actually vast majority of WCA members are active editors of
various Wikimedia projects. Probably you can't find to many edits of
them on English Wikipedia, but take a look (at least sometimes) on
other Wikimedia projects. Wikipedias in other languages, Wikimedia
Commons, Books, News etc..

See for example Ziko edit history in Wikimedia Commons:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Ziko

Take 10 random English Wikipedia admins and ask them what the FDC is -
I guess the result will be similar to the question regarding WCA.

Or ask them what is the difference between "Human Resources
Administrator" and "Director of Human Resources", and what these
people are actually doing which benefit directly Wikimedia projects...



--
Tomek "Polimerek" Ganicz
http://pl.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Polimerek
http://www.ganicz.pl/poli/
http://www.cbmm.lodz.pl/work.php?id=29&title=tomasz-ganicz

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Strange, surprising, bold and unnecessary - reply to the WMF board statement

Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton
I said this in Berlin, and I will repeat here: Why the chapters do not
apply the Wiki model in the offline world? Why organizations are
hierarchical and bureaucratic as if they came from a horizontal and free
group? It is clear that the WCA is going down a wrong path, if the intent is
collaboration between chapters, should not have bureaucracies hindering the
process. And it is obvious that the editors will not do things offline, the
organizational model is the opposite of what they are accustomed.



On 6 February 2013 12:27, Tomasz Ganicz <[hidden email]> wrote:

> 2013/2/6 Tom Morris <[hidden email]>:
> > I think the failure of the WCA process thus far has shown an enormous
> > lack of connection between chapter bureaucracy and what editors
> > actually care about.
> >
> > Wikimedians have a rightful distaste for off-wiki bureaucracy. The
> > distinct lack of formal bureaucracy and organisation (we, of course,
> > create our own bureaucracy - see http://enwp.org/WP:WTF ) is one of
> > the chief things about Wikimedia projects that a lot of us like. I've
> > sat on far too many committees in my life. I have kept a small eye on
> > the WCA discussions and have yet to see compelling reasons to think
> > that it would do anything to actually directly help the projects. I'm
> > sure if I pulled 10 random admins from English Wikipedia and asked
> > them what the WCA is, they wouldn't be able to tell me, or they'd give
> > me a cynical answer like "it's an empire-building project for
> > political players in chapters".
> >
>
> Well, I think your division of wikimedians bureaucrats and editors is
> a bit weird, at least regarding WCA members and very en-Wikipedia
> centered. Actually vast majority of WCA members are active editors of
> various Wikimedia projects. Probably you can't find to many edits of
> them on English Wikipedia, but take a look (at least sometimes) on
> other Wikimedia projects. Wikipedias in other languages, Wikimedia
> Commons, Books, News etc..
>
> See for example Ziko edit history in Wikimedia Commons:
>
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Ziko
>
> Take 10 random English Wikipedia admins and ask them what the FDC is -
> I guess the result will be similar to the question regarding WCA.
>
> Or ask them what is the difference between "Human Resources
> Administrator" and "Director of Human Resources", and what these
> people are actually doing which benefit directly Wikimedia projects...
>
>
>
> --
> Tomek "Polimerek" Ganicz
> http://pl.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Polimerek
> http://www.ganicz.pl/poli/
> http://www.cbmm.lodz.pl/work.php?id=29&title=tomasz-ganicz
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>



--
Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton
[hidden email]
+55 11 97 97 18 884
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Strange, surprising, bold and unnecessary - reply to the WMF board statement

Thomas Dalton
On 6 February 2013 14:44, Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> I said this in Berlin, and I will repeat here: Why the chapters do not
> apply the Wiki model in the offline world?

Because different problems require different solutions.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Strange, surprising, bold and unnecessary - reply to the WMF board statement

Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton
So ... you not believes in the model Wiki, and also not believes that he can be
used in other locations, unless in building a encyclopedia?


On 6 February 2013 12:51, Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 6 February 2013 14:44, Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > I said this in Berlin, and I will repeat here: Why the chapters do not
> > apply the Wiki model in the offline world?
>
> Because different problems require different solutions.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>



--
Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton
[hidden email]
+55 11 97 97 18 884
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Strange, surprising, bold and unnecessary - reply to the WMF board statement

Yaroslav M. Blanter
In reply to this post by Thomas Dalton
On Wed, 6 Feb 2013 14:18:34 +0000, Thomas Dalton wrote:

> Pretty much everything the WMF and chapters do is stuff editors don't
> care about. If editors cared about it, they would do it themselves
> and
> they would be WMF and chapter people not editors (some people manage
> to be both, although it is too great a challenge for most of us!).
> Different people in the movement are involved in different things,
> all
> of which are required for the projects to be as big a success as they
> can be.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

I do not think it is actually correct. It is true that many editors
might not care about any particular initiative  - same way as they do
not care for example about arbcom elections. However, if we take Wiki
Loves Monuments as an example of a chapter-initiated activity - well,
many editors liked it and actively participated, and may had strong
feelings - positive or negative - about organization and results.

Cheers
Yaroslav

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Strange, surprising, bold and unnecessary - reply to the WMF board statement

Charles Andrès-2
In reply to this post by Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton
I do not see big difference between what you call "wiki model" and an association like the chapters association.

Every individual has the same right, for specific purpose both model need to elect a guy that took the responsibility.


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"Wikimedia CH" – Association for the advancement of free knowledge –
www.wikimedia.ch
Skype: charles.andres.wmch
IRC://irc.freenode.net/wikimedia-ch

Le 6 févr. 2013 à 15:55, Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton <[hidden email]> a écrit :

> So ... you not believes in the model Wiki, and also not believes that he can be
> used in other locations, unless in building a encyclopedia?
>
>
> On 6 February 2013 12:51, Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On 6 February 2013 14:44, Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> I said this in Berlin, and I will repeat here: Why the chapters do not
>>> apply the Wiki model in the offline world?
>>
>> Because different problems require different solutions.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list
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>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton
> [hidden email]
> +55 11 97 97 18 884
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Strange, surprising, bold and unnecessary - reply to the WMF board statement

Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton
Administrators are just volunteers with tools that do what the community
demands, has no decision-making powers, is not a statutory position.
Furthermore, anyone can volunteer in Wikis, but is not anyone who may be a
member of WCA...

And there are a lot of other differences that I'll let you think.

On 6 February 2013 13:12, Charles Andrès <[hidden email]>wrote:

> I do not see big difference between what you call "wiki model" and an
> association like the chapters association.
>
> Every individual has the same right, for specific purpose both model need
> to elect a guy that took the responsibility.
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> I use this email for mailing list only.
>
> Charles ANDRES, Chairman
> "Wikimedia CH" – Association for the advancement of free knowledge –
> www.wikimedia.ch
> Skype: charles.andres.wmch
> IRC://irc.freenode.net/wikimedia-ch
>
> Le 6 févr. 2013 à 15:55, Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton <
> [hidden email]> a écrit :
>
> > So ... you not believes in the model Wiki, and also not believes that he
> can be
> > used in other locations, unless in building a encyclopedia?
> >
> >
> > On 6 February 2013 12:51, Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> On 6 February 2013 14:44, Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton
> >> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>> I said this in Berlin, and I will repeat here: Why the chapters do not
> >>> apply the Wiki model in the offline world?
> >>
> >> Because different problems require different solutions.
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton
> > [hidden email]
> > +55 11 97 97 18 884
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Strange, surprising, bold and unnecessary - reply to the WMF board statement

Thomas Dalton
In reply to this post by Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton
On 6 February 2013 14:55, Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> So ... you not believes in the model Wiki, and also not believes that he can be
> used in other locations, unless in building a encyclopedia?

It may be useful in other situations, but there is no reason to assume
that just because it's a good way to write an encyclopaedia that it is
going to be a good way to run a chapter.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Strange, surprising, bold and unnecessary - reply to the WMF board statement

Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton
HEHHEHEHE, okay, okay

So... do you not believe?

I find it odd organizations that promote free collaborative construction,
do not to believe in their own model, do not use the model itself and talk
that should be the model to be used ... "blacksmith's house, wooden
skewer"(casa de ferreiro, espeto de pau) [1]

I will not prolong, I just think that you are wasting your capacity.

Peace.

[1]http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casa_de_ferreiro,_espeto_de_pau


On 6 February 2013 13:18, Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 6 February 2013 14:55, Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > So ... you not believes in the model Wiki, and also not believes that he
> can be
> > used in other locations, unless in building a encyclopedia?
>
> It may be useful in other situations, but there is no reason to assume
> that just because it's a good way to write an encyclopaedia that it is
> going to be a good way to run a chapter.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>



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[hidden email]
+55 11 97 97 18 884
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Strange, surprising, bold and unnecessary - reply to the WMF board statement

Thomas Dalton
On 6 February 2013 15:31, Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> HEHHEHEHE, okay, okay
>
> So... do you not believe?
>
> I find it odd organizations that promote free collaborative construction,
> do not to believe in their own model, do not use the model itself and talk
> that should be the model to be used ... "blacksmith's house, wooden
> skewer"(casa de ferreiro, espeto de pau) [1]
>
> I will not prolong, I just think that you are wasting your capacity.

I believe it's a very good way to write an encyclopaedia...

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Strange, surprising, bold and unnecessary - reply to the WMF board statement

Charles Andrès-2
In reply to this post by Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton
It's quite easy to leave the discussion when people do not agree without, nobody forced you to change the way you are working, we all respect the way you choose. just let's respect the way other can choose.

And by the way, a sarcastic analysis of the wiki model is that is working only if the majority of editors have minimal interaction with the other and than only a minority of editors are really acting together at the meta level, you really think it's a magic model?


thanks

___________________________________________________________
I use this email for mailing list only.

Charles ANDRES, Chairman
"Wikimedia CH" – Association for the advancement of free knowledge –
www.wikimedia.ch
Skype: charles.andres.wmch
IRC://irc.freenode.net/wikimedia-ch

Le 6 févr. 2013 à 16:31, Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton <[hidden email]> a écrit :

> HEHHEHEHE, okay, okay
>
> So... do you not believe?
>
> I find it odd organizations that promote free collaborative construction,
> do not to believe in their own model, do not use the model itself and talk
> that should be the model to be used ... "blacksmith's house, wooden
> skewer"(casa de ferreiro, espeto de pau) [1]
>
> I will not prolong, I just think that you are wasting your capacity.
>
> Peace.
>
> [1]http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casa_de_ferreiro,_espeto_de_pau
>
>
> On 6 February 2013 13:18, Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On 6 February 2013 14:55, Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> So ... you not believes in the model Wiki, and also not believes that he
>> can be
>>> used in other locations, unless in building a encyclopedia?
>>
>> It may be useful in other situations, but there is no reason to assume
>> that just because it's a good way to write an encyclopaedia that it is
>> going to be a good way to run a chapter.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton
> [hidden email]
> +55 11 97 97 18 884
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

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